Author Topic: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?  (Read 9525 times)

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Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« on: April 20, 2008, 01:46:12 PM »

Offline Ersatz

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Is Amare Stoudemire the league's most overrated player? Yesterday, I think, proved he is. While I have to admit that his offensive play around the basket is unrivaled, he doesn't have an actual move that can get him baskets in any situation. Rather, his explosiveness and perfect passes from Nash account for well over half of his baskets. As Nash gets older or retires, Stoudemire no longer gets so many easy baskets, and his complete lack of post moves means he's going to have to work a lot harder on the offensive end.

But it's in Stoudemire's defensive and inability to control himself that we see not just a weakness but a player that is at key times fatal to his team. Yesterday was a great example. While I'll admit that some of the fouls on Shaq were pretty bad calls, the ones on Stoudemire were all well deserved and at least four of them were due to his boneheadness. To be a great player, you've got to know you can't go over the back or charge to the basket when a pull-up short jumper will do. You have to control yourself, and in big-game situations, Stoudemire seems completely incapable of that.

And his defense. Just atrocious. Not only does he not even pretend to guard his man, he is never in the right place at the right time for help defense. Yes, he's athletic enough to block shots, but Finley's three-pointer at the end of regulation yesterday epitomizes his horrible play: Seemingly unaware that the Spurs needed three points and that it was Finley, a lethal shooter, shooting the ball, he misplays the screen and drops back, leaving Finley wide open to nail it. Awful play from an often-awful player.

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2008, 02:38:15 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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Stoudemire is amazing. No one claims he is perfect. Howard is considered the dominant big man of the future, not Amare. But Amare is a beast on offense.

Everyone charges at times, especially on fast breaks. Pierce and Ray Allen have done it, and they are smaller players who most would expect to have a mobility advantage over Amare.

Amare is so much better now that he doesn't have to play center. He has a ton of moves. He is not a post guy who has a single favorite move. He is a guy who runs around and who is amazingly agile.

There is a simple reason why Amare got less easy baskets yesterday -- they were playing the Spurs. Duncan could get easy baskets either at the end of the game, and Duncan has amazing go-to moves.

Let's not overreact.

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2008, 02:44:47 PM »

Offline phantom

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Amare is my pick to lead the league in scoring in 08-09.

As for the D, well, I've seen worse.  He was 7th in the league in blocks last year.  He's not a very good defender, but he has time to improve.  People are way more into dogging young players now than I've ever seen.

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2008, 04:09:27 PM »

Offline GroverTheClover

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Stoudemire is amazing. No one claims he is perfect. Howard is considered the dominant big man of the future, not Amare. But Amare is a beast on offense.

Everyone charges at times, especially on fast breaks. Pierce and Ray Allen have done it, and they are smaller players who most would expect to have a mobility advantage over Amare.

Amare is so much better now that he doesn't have to play center. He has a ton of moves. He is not a post guy who has a single favorite move. He is a guy who runs around and who is amazingly agile.

There is a simple reason why Amare got less easy baskets yesterday -- they were playing the Spurs. Duncan could get easy baskets either at the end of the game, and Duncan has amazing go-to moves.

Let's not overreact.

I disagree. Amare has often times gone off on the Spurs. If I recall correctly, he posted higher PPG last year in the playoffs against Duncan.

While I will concede that he is a tad overrated (especially with regard to his overall game and lack of defense), he just became the first player to regain their explosiveness coming back from microfracture surgery. If anything, that's a testament to his work ethic. Besides, he's still in his early 20s. He may still develop a true back to the basket game.

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2008, 04:12:47 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Yes, he is overrated.  He plays little to no defense.  And he has limited low post moves for a big man of his stature. 


Now if he developed both of these, his wouldn't be overrated. 


But with Nash, he hasn't had the need to develop a low post game.  He just lives off feeds and pick an rolls. 

And defense, Phoenix teams he has been on have never stressed that to much.



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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2008, 04:16:48 PM »

Offline jay_jay54

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I think Amare is a tough competitor,who had to play out of position for most of the time,but did a good job,holding it down.I don't see many flaws in his game.He was as someone mentioned a very good def.player last season,blocking more shots.I didn't see him in as many games this yr.,but with the transitioning of the Suns midway through the season,i feel he has alone with a few others held it together pretty darn good.Amare is a superstar,in my book.He is probably arguablly the second best to Duncan in the West( Bigs).

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2008, 04:59:33 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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Yes, he is overrated.  He plays little to no defense.  And he has limited low post moves for a big man of his stature. 


Now if he developed both of these, his wouldn't be overrated. 


But with Nash, he hasn't had the need to develop a low post game.  He just lives off feeds and pick an rolls. 

And defense, Phoenix teams he has been on have never stressed that to much.




A year ago, this would have been a much fairer assessment than it is now.  At this point, I'm not buying all of it.

Yes, Stoudemire is still a poor defender at best -- it's the biggest weakness in his game and the major obstacle in his attaining all-around dominance.  But he has without doubt become more active defensively since O'Neal came to town and he moved over to the power forward position.  But I also think that most NBA folks have become aware of this over the last season and a half or so, and I'm not sure his poor defense contributes to his being overrated at this point, as it seems that this is fairly taken into account in appraisals of his game.

That said, my bigger problem with your evaluation is the commentary about his offensive game.  A year ago, STAT's offensive production was far more based on the raw athleticism, lobs and screen-rolls that you mention.  The big difference in Stoudemire this year -- as I wrote about a couple of months ago (http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2472&Itemid=260) -- has been the development of his all-around offensive game.  He has refined his mid-range jump shooting game and now forces opponents to come out and deal with him from 15 to 18 feet.  This is only allowing him more room to use his quickness to against other bigs to create his own shot by getting to the rim as well.  Stoudemire slashes with far more ferocity and finesse than most bigs in the league, and he has begun to master the post as well.  The man didn't go from 20.4 to 25.2 points per game simply by playing an extra minute and getting more lobs than in the past.  His footwork and post moves have greatly improved, and he has become far more willing to use his athleticism productively down there, to get the ball down low and simply rise up over opponents, not only for dunks but for mini-hooks and baby jumpers as well. 

The improvement of this guy's all-around offensive game has been one of the best stories of the 2007-08 season.  I think you're selling him very short on that end.

-sw


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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2008, 05:24:01 PM »

Offline Bahku

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Yes, he is overrated.  He plays little to no defense.  And he has limited low post moves for a big man of his stature. 


Now if he developed both of these, his wouldn't be overrated. 


But with Nash, he hasn't had the need to develop a low post game.  He just lives off feeds and pick an rolls. 

And defense, Phoenix teams he has been on have never stressed that to much.




A year ago, this would have been a much fairer assessment than it is now.  At this point, I'm not buying all of it.

Yes, Stoudemire is still a poor defender at best -- it's the biggest weakness in his game and the major obstacle in his attaining all-around dominance.  But he has without doubt become more active defensively since O'Neal came to town and he moved over to the power forward position.  But I also think that most NBA folks have become aware of this over the last season and a half or so, and I'm not sure his poor defense contributes to his being overrated at this point, as it seems that this is fairly taken into account in appraisals of his game.

That said, my bigger problem with your evaluation is the commentary about his offensive game.  A year ago, STAT's offensive production was far more based on the raw athleticism, lobs and screen-rolls that you mention.  The big difference in Stoudemire this year -- as I wrote about a couple of months ago (http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2472&Itemid=260) -- has been the development of his all-around offensive game.  He has refined his mid-range jump shooting game and now forces opponents to come out and deal with him from 15 to 18 feet.  This is only allowing him more room to use his quickness to against other bigs to create his own shot by getting to the rim as well.  Stoudemire slashes with far more ferocity and finesse than most bigs in the league, and he has begun to master the post as well.  The man didn't go from 20.4 to 25.2 points per game simply by playing an extra minute and getting more lobs than in the past.  His footwork and post moves have greatly improved, and he has become far more willing to use his athleticism productively down there, to get the ball down low and simply rise up over opponents, not only for dunks but for mini-hooks and baby jumpers as well. 

The improvement of this guy's all-around offensive game has been one of the best stories of the 2007-08 season.  I think you're selling him very short on that end.

-sw

Well said, SW ... totally agree. You just saved me a ton of typing, (my digits thank you!) TP.
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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2008, 05:40:19 PM »

Offline Steve Weinman

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Yes, he is overrated.  He plays little to no defense.  And he has limited low post moves for a big man of his stature. 


Now if he developed both of these, his wouldn't be overrated. 


But with Nash, he hasn't had the need to develop a low post game.  He just lives off feeds and pick an rolls. 

And defense, Phoenix teams he has been on have never stressed that to much.




A year ago, this would have been a much fairer assessment than it is now.  At this point, I'm not buying all of it.

Yes, Stoudemire is still a poor defender at best -- it's the biggest weakness in his game and the major obstacle in his attaining all-around dominance.  But he has without doubt become more active defensively since O'Neal came to town and he moved over to the power forward position.  But I also think that most NBA folks have become aware of this over the last season and a half or so, and I'm not sure his poor defense contributes to his being overrated at this point, as it seems that this is fairly taken into account in appraisals of his game.

That said, my bigger problem with your evaluation is the commentary about his offensive game.  A year ago, STAT's offensive production was far more based on the raw athleticism, lobs and screen-rolls that you mention.  The big difference in Stoudemire this year -- as I wrote about a couple of months ago (http://www.celticsblog.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2472&Itemid=260) -- has been the development of his all-around offensive game.  He has refined his mid-range jump shooting game and now forces opponents to come out and deal with him from 15 to 18 feet.  This is only allowing him more room to use his quickness to against other bigs to create his own shot by getting to the rim as well.  Stoudemire slashes with far more ferocity and finesse than most bigs in the league, and he has begun to master the post as well.  The man didn't go from 20.4 to 25.2 points per game simply by playing an extra minute and getting more lobs than in the past.  His footwork and post moves have greatly improved, and he has become far more willing to use his athleticism productively down there, to get the ball down low and simply rise up over opponents, not only for dunks but for mini-hooks and baby jumpers as well. 

The improvement of this guy's all-around offensive game has been one of the best stories of the 2007-08 season.  I think you're selling him very short on that end.

-sw

Well said, SW ... totally agree. You just saved me a ton of typing, (my digits thank you!) TP.

Glad to hear you're with me, Bahku.  Guess it should be my new slogan -- "SW:  Preventing Carpal Tunnel For CB Members Since 2008"  ;)

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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2008, 05:40:58 PM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

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There are far, far more overrated players than Amare Stoudemire. While I have my doubts that he can be your best player on a title bound team, he is the most lethal scoring big man in the game. He's found a way to score even without jaw dropping athleticism. Now he's just a very good athlete. His outside J is money in the bank... his savvy down on the blocks is better than just about everyone's in today's game.

Most overrated player, I'd have to say, is Dwyane Wade. But I think people have begun to see that.

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2008, 06:00:07 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Stoudemire is certainly not overrated... sure he has flaws on his game, but who doesn't?  Fact is that his strengths are taken lightly by many around, and playing behind Steve Nash keeps him underappreciated; especially when you consider that he has been playing out of position for pretty much his whole career.

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2008, 06:14:43 PM »

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Steve Nash is overrated. He doesn't play a lick of D at all, and on offense, he shoots a good percentage, but has never cracked 20 ppg. Most of his assists are just because he's able to run around like crazy and throw up a pass anywhere he wants and Amare will grab it from anywhere and throw it down.

(And yes, this is facetious, but let's be honest, it depends on the angle with which you approach the question. basketball players are all dependent upon each other. Players need to receive the ball in order to score, and for a player to rack up assists, he needs to be surrounded by people who can score. Amare is maybe the best finisher in the NBA and Nash is one of the better passers. They are lucky to be on the same team. THEY BOTH MAKE EACH OTHER BETTER. Neither one plays defense, and both are elite players at their position. what bothers me is that it's the little white guy who gets credit for Amare's scoring, not Amare's ridiculously elite finishing ability that gets credited for making Nash's assist totals so high. Why is that?)

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2008, 06:41:44 PM »

Offline PJ Martinez

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Come on, everybody knows that the most overrated player in the league is Kobe Bryant. (Well, everybody except for a majority of the national press and all those fans in their yellow and purple #24 jerseys.)

Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2008, 06:57:15 PM »

Offline crownsy

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Come on, everybody knows that the most overrated player in the league is Kobe Bryant. (Well, everybody except for a majority of the national press and all those fans in their yellow and purple #24 jerseys.)

come on now. i hate kobe but overrated is the last thing that comes to mind. Arrogant? yes. self centered? yes. possible team killing ball hog skills? mabey. but overrated? not anywhere near my list.

Guys an incredible player, just not, imo, a incredible person.
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Re: Stoudemire most overrated in leauge?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2008, 07:07:01 PM »

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In all seriousness, I do believe Nash is overrated. Look at his stats his two MVP seasons:

MIN  FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL  RB   AST   PTS    PER
34  .502  .431  .887  3.3   1   3.4  11.5  15.5   22.04
36  .512  .439  .921  3.5  .8   4.2  10.5  18.8   23.29

Those are not all-time numbers. And before you give me "point guard intangibles," here's the last stat line of the last MVP point guard, Magic Johnson:

MIN  FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL  RB   AST   PTS
37  .480  .384  .890  3.7  1.7  6.6  11.5  22.3   

Johnson had a significantly better overall season, when factoring steals and the large increases in scoring and rebounding.

So whom did Nash beat each year?
05-06
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL   RB    AST     PTS   PER
Lebron:
42.5  .480  .335  .738  3.3  1.6   7.0   6.6     31.4   28.17
Dirk (whose team was BETTER post-Nash):
38.1  .480  .406  .901  1.9  0.7   9.0     2.8    26.6   28.20
Kobe (take a look at the supporting casts)
41.0 .450   .347  .850  3.1  1.8   5.3     4.5    35.4   28.11

04-05
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%   TO  STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
Shaq 
34.1  .601       .461  2.8  0.5   10.4  2.7     22.9   27.03
Dirk
38.7  .459  .399  .869    2.3  1.2   9.7     3.1     26.1   26.14
Duncan    
33.4  .496  .333  .670  1.9  0.7   11.1  2.7     20.3   27.12

All of those stat lines are just better than either of Nash's years. Just look at the PERs! Not to mention the fact that Shaq and Duncan each had more than 2 blocks per game in 04-05, and Duncan, in addition to having better overall numbers, actually makes his defense significantly better than does Nash.

Compare Chris Paul's numbers this year to Nash's from either MVP year:
MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%    TO   STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
37.6  .488  .369  .851    2.51  2.71  4.0   11.6      21.1    28.39

I mean, Chris Paul's season absolutely destrys Nash's MVP years. Check out that PER, and look at the scoring and steals, and almost a full turnover less than Nash. If Nash was truly a deserving MVP candidate, Paul has to win this year. Chris's #1 competition this year is generally considered Kobe, with Lebron another viable option (for purposes of this and to avoid starting a flame war i'm pretending KG is not an option).

MIN    FG%   3P%   FT%    TO   STL   RB    AST     PTS     PER
Kobe
38.9  .459   .361  .840    3.13  1.84  6.3   5.4      28.3    24.31
Lebron
40.4  .484   .315  .712    3.40  1.84  7.9   7.2      30.0    29.23

In reality, the race should come down to Lebron and Paul, but writers with votes like to think that they know more about the sport than other people do, so they rely on things like "intangibles" talk their way into justifying their voting for their favorite candidate.
But really, Kobe's season this year is worse than his when he lost to Nash, AND Paul's year this year his better than  either of Nash's MVP years. Therefore, at least one of the following statements has to be true: 1) Nash never deserved to win an MVP award, or 2) Chris Paul has to win this year's MVP in a landslide.