Author Topic: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum  (Read 31233 times)

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Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2007, 04:19:32 PM »

Offline Chris

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Quote
but I think all posters need to be very aware that this is a Patriots forum, as stated in its name, so there are going to be a majority of Patriots fans.

This is NOT exclusively a Patriots forum.  The name of this forum is the "Patriots / Football" forum.  Discussion of all subjects related to football is allowed here.  Yes, the majority of fans here are Pats fans, but fans of other teams are allowed to voice their thoughts as much as anybody else. 

And it shouldn't matter anyways.  It doesn't matter who anyone is a fan of, they still need to be shown respect on this site.

Even if a Lakers fan was to come on here, boasting of how good they are going to be (I know, I know), it is still 100% unnacceptable to show him or her any disrespect.  You just need to very clearly and civily explain to him or her that the Lakers are simply not a good team, and back it up with evidence.

Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2007, 04:21:35 PM »

Offline KuberskiIsMyHero

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Re Nickagneta:  Even you must see the difference between calling another poster a "dunce", "moron", an "idiot" etc. as opposed to deftly accomplishing something similar throught a substantive and well constructed counter-argument. The latter can add to our collective body of knowledge, the former undermines spirited discussion.

It's equally obvious that some posters have a strong bias and only will TOLERATE their viewpoint. Those posters that oppose biased views are considered "enemies of reason". Let the WAR of Words begin, but keep levity and diplomacy paramount!
Yes "EVEN I" can see that veiled insults are much nicer and less hurtful than when someone calls me an "idiot" to my face, especially on a thread where the discussion of behavior is being debated.

Yup "EVEN I" can figure that out!

I think Moskqq might have mispoke there...or maybe needed to be clearer.

The whole point of this site is to share your viewpoints with others, and become aware of the points of view of others, and create discussion and discourse.  If what you are trying to do is prove someone else wrong, or make them look stupid, or anything else like that, then you don't belong here (this is not directed at you, just saying in general).

I agree with Kuberski that conflict is a part of life.  However, disrespect is not a part of this site.  Plain and simple.  You can have any opinion you want, and you can voice it as much as you want, however, if you disrespect anyone else on this site, then it is not acceptable.

Nothing else matters, its all about respect for other human beings, and showing the common curtesy that everyone deserves.  If you don't agree with that, then this is not the right site for you.

While I agree that blantant disrespect to be be hurtful is just foolish, there are many times where a argument can escalate and things can be said.  I personally think it would be a bit much if someone was banned for calling someone an "idiot."  I mean, heck, it was a term of endearment in 2004.  But seriously, a blowoff comment like that should not be a highly punishable offense.  I don't think anyone should be using racial slurs or anything, because if you enjoy calling people bad names over the internet, then you should get your head checked.  I just would personally hate to see good posters get punished over a zero tolerance policy that may just stretch a bit too far.

But hey, it isnt my site, so I'll just bounce if it bothers me that badly.  

Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2007, 04:28:51 PM »

Offline Chris

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While I agree that blantant disrespect to be be hurtful is just foolish, there are many times where a argument can escalate and things can be said.  I personally think it would be a bit much if someone was banned for calling someone an "idiot."  I mean, heck, it was a term of endearment in 2004.  But seriously, a blowoff comment like that should not be a highly punishable offense.  I don't think anyone should be using racial slurs or anything, because if you enjoy calling people bad names over the internet, then you should get your head checked.  I just would personally hate to see good posters get punished over a zero tolerance policy that may just stretch a bit too far.

But hey, it isnt my site, so I'll just bounce if it bothers me that badly. 

Hey, I don't completely disagree with you.  The problem is, no one is able to just call someone an idiot.  Because whenever they do that (and this is from experience of having to moderate many threads like this), then the "idiot" has to respond with something slightly worse.  And then the original poster needs to respond with something worse than that.  And soon enough, a thread that was supposed to be about the Patriots game against the Colts has two pages of insults between two posters. 

That ruins the fun for everyone else not involved, and who may have wanted to actually continue discussing the game...and it means that those two who may have started off with what they thought was a relatively harmless namecalling turned in to a blatant flame war.

If everyone was able just to brush these comments off, it would be great, and all of the Mods would love it, because it would make our jobs much easier, but you know thats not the case. 

Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2007, 04:40:34 PM »

Offline moskqq

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In legal debate, the "Ad Hominum" or personal attack (name-calling argument) is a sign of frustration arising from a lack of counter-argument.

In blogger parlance, it might mean that one blogger is making such a strong case for his position that another blogger  recognizes the tenuous nature of his own argument and shifts the FOCUS to personal INSULT.  Call it what you like, but personal "slurs" are a sure indication of defeat, defeat of reason, defeat of evidence. It's a last resort attempt to win by acting the part of a  "bully"!

Re Chris:  While INSULTS in any form should be discouraged, some are delivered with such a noticeable touch of good natured humor that they don't offend but rather entertain.  Insults are always indicative of a loser's last argument, sometimes delivered with humorous diplomacy.

Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2007, 04:46:35 PM »

Offline Chris

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Re Chris:  While INSULTS in any form should be discouraged, some are delivered with such a noticeable touch of good natured humor that they don't offend but rather entertain.  Insults are always indicative of a loser's last argument, sometimes delivered with humorous diplomacy.

Of course, and we always use our discretion to try not to be too sensitive about things like this.  But it is important to be careful when making any insult, because sometimes "good natured humor" does not translate well online. 

But either way, these good natured statements are not what we are talking about for the most part.  We are talking about the posts that are clearly made to elicit a negative reaction from other posters.

Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2007, 04:47:18 PM »

Offline jbp126

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In legal debate, the "Ad Hominum" or personal attack (name-calling argument) is a sign of frustration arising from a lack of counter-argument.

In blogger parlance, it might mean that one blogger is making such a strong case for his position that another blogger  recognizes the tenuous nature of his own argument and shifts the FOCUS to personal INSULT.  Call it what you like, but personal "slurs" are a sure indication of defeat, defeat of reason, defeat of evidence. It's a last resort attempt to win by acting the part of a  "bully"!

Re Chris:  While INSULTS in any form should be discouraged, some are delivered with such a noticeable touch of good natured humor that they don't offend but rather entertain.  Insults are always indicative of a loser's last argument, sometimes delivered with humorous diplomacy.

That is a good point, but a personal insult could also be a reaction to the absurdness of the poster's argument.  Just another way to view it.

Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2007, 04:48:44 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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While I agree that blantant disrespect to be be hurtful is just foolish, there are many times where a argument can escalate and things can be said.  I personally think it would be a bit much if someone was banned for calling someone an "idiot."  I mean, heck, it was a term of endearment in 2004.  But seriously, a blowoff comment like that should not be a highly punishable offense.  I don't think anyone should be using racial slurs or anything, because if you enjoy calling people bad names over the internet, then you should get your head checked.  I just would personally hate to see good posters get punished over a zero tolerance policy that may just stretch a bit too far.

But hey, it isnt my site, so I'll just bounce if it bothers me that badly. 

Hey, I don't completely disagree with you.  The problem is, no one is able to just call someone an idiot.  Because whenever they do that (and this is from experience of having to moderate many threads like this), then the "idiot" has to respond with something slightly worse.  And then the original poster needs to respond with something worse than that.  And soon enough, a thread that was supposed to be about the Patriots game against the Colts has two pages of insults between two posters. 

That ruins the fun for everyone else not involved, and who may have wanted to actually continue discussing the game...and it means that those two who may have started off with what they thought was a relatively harmless namecalling turned in to a blatant flame war.

If everyone was able just to brush these comments off, it would be great, and all of the Mods would love it, because it would make our jobs much easier, but you know thats not the case. 
So if someone can communicate well enough to veil their insults(see moskqq's original post which he admittedly wrote as an insult) will they be chastised just as much as someone who baits or abuses someone else in a more crude manner? And if that these wordsmiths are accomplished enough they could conceivably be continuously insulting without a mod, such as yourself, realizing it or a mod might even conceivably try to explain away that insult as a form of miscommunication. How can the mods tell the difference? When will the no tolerance start and stop? Are well worded insults and badgering allowed or any worse than the use of outright disrespectful forms of abuse? Sounds like a slippery slope to me as no tolerance policies become more and more strict.

Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2007, 04:50:15 PM »

Offline moskqq

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Name-calling as a last resort in a spirited discussion:  Since the perponderance of the evidence rests with your opponent, you attempt to UNDERMINE the credibility of your opponent's arguments through racial, ethnic and other derogatory slurs.

Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2007, 04:56:17 PM »

Offline Chris

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While I agree that blantant disrespect to be be hurtful is just foolish, there are many times where a argument can escalate and things can be said.  I personally think it would be a bit much if someone was banned for calling someone an "idiot."  I mean, heck, it was a term of endearment in 2004.  But seriously, a blowoff comment like that should not be a highly punishable offense.  I don't think anyone should be using racial slurs or anything, because if you enjoy calling people bad names over the internet, then you should get your head checked.  I just would personally hate to see good posters get punished over a zero tolerance policy that may just stretch a bit too far.

But hey, it isnt my site, so I'll just bounce if it bothers me that badly. 

Hey, I don't completely disagree with you.  The problem is, no one is able to just call someone an idiot.  Because whenever they do that (and this is from experience of having to moderate many threads like this), then the "idiot" has to respond with something slightly worse.  And then the original poster needs to respond with something worse than that.  And soon enough, a thread that was supposed to be about the Patriots game against the Colts has two pages of insults between two posters. 

That ruins the fun for everyone else not involved, and who may have wanted to actually continue discussing the game...and it means that those two who may have started off with what they thought was a relatively harmless namecalling turned in to a blatant flame war.

If everyone was able just to brush these comments off, it would be great, and all of the Mods would love it, because it would make our jobs much easier, but you know thats not the case. 
So if someone can communicate well enough to veil their insults(see moskqq's original post which he admittedly wrote as an insult) will they be chastised just as much as someone who baits or abuses someone else in a more crude manner? And if that these wordsmiths are accomplished enough they could conceivably be continuously insulting without a mod, such as yourself, realizing it or a mod might even conceivably try to explain away that insult as a form of miscommunication. How can the mods tell the difference? When will the no tolerance start and stop? Are well worded insults and badgering allowed or any worse than the use of outright disrespectful forms of abuse? Sounds like a slippery slope to me as no tolerance policies become more and more strict.

Stop worrying about slippery slopes, and start worrying about following rules. 

We are not going to be banning people who are following the rules, plain and simple. 

If you feel like someone is breaking a rule, then use the report to the moderator button.  If they are using veiled insults (such as inferring that the Mods are too incompetent to pick up on veiled insults), then they will be treated the same was as if they were using blatant insults.  This is the way it has always been.

But I would suggest that you stop worrying about this stuff so much, and just worry about what you personally can do to be respectful to others, and to follow the rules of the site.  If you would like a clarification of any of the rules, please PM me, and I would be glad to discuss them.

Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2007, 05:02:33 PM »

Offline dinoradja

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This is the first time in a long time I've posted, and the reason is similar to the ones being expressed here.

I have no problem with rules being in place to keep discussion on topic and keep trolls out, but my dealings with the moderators have always left me with a bad taste in my mouth.  They seem to take a particular delight in their role as enforcers, which is a shame.

I have all kinds of problems with various rules and interpretations but moderating and setting up a forum is not in my future, so I just read and don't post anymore.

The site is still one of the best around (and not cus I use to help with the server and write for it either), but I would love to see some moderating of the moderators.

Reminds me of the psychology experiment where college kids were randomly chosen to be either cops or prisoners...if you've never heard of it, look it up.


Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2007, 05:03:17 PM »

Offline moskqq

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Almost anything that is written can be manipulated so as to shift its original intent. I think we all recognize the difference between crude remarks, subtle discourse and even absurd commentaries.  Somewhere the exercise of MODERATION and discretion needs to be exercised.

That is why we have MODERATORS to "level the playing field" and call the fouls when someone crosses the line of scrimmage. It's apparent by the diversity of opinions that there is  a wide gulf of propriety.

Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2007, 06:22:30 PM »

Offline sexyscottish

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The biggest issue is that heaven forbid you not like the Patriots.  People forget that they have only been good for a very short period of time and because of this, people that never knew they existed before 2001 come out of nowhere and try and argue without knowing anything.  If you look at the overall body of work the franchise has been mostly a joke.  It took Parcells and Bledsoe to make them relevant in the 90's and for Belichek to make them a winner. 

And not that I'm not guilty of Celtics homerism from time to time  ;D but Pats homers are even worse.  If you make any legit point against there team you're an idiot and know nothing about football.  And if you make a comparison/analysis with or about another team it's wrong, despite them knowing next to nothing about said team. 

If we were making these arguments in person at a bar it wouldn't be a problem because eventually the beer would kick in and common sense would take over.  But here, people can only read what's in black and white and not the feelings/intent/meaning behind it.

Don't make blanket statements like "Oh, such and such sucks because he plays on the Giants or he plays in the NFC" when you don't watch anything but the Pats.  ANd before anyone comes back with "Don't talk about the ------ when you're a Giants fan" I personally am one of the people that spends waaaaay to much time researching/studying EVERY team so that I'm not a one dimensional debater.  And no matter what people say, there is NO WAY every other person here is like that when it comes to football.

Maybe a lot of this was rambling but I think it is all relevant and makes a lot of sense.
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Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2007, 07:05:10 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Don't make blanket statements like "Oh, such and such sucks because he plays on the Giants or he plays in the NFC" when you don't watch anything but the Pats.

Excellent advice don't make blanket statements.

People forget that they have only been good for a very short period of time and because of this, people that never knew they existed before 2001 come out of nowhere and try and argue without knowing anything.

Ooops, that's a blanket statement.

If you look at the overall body of work the franchise has been mostly a joke.

Actually the overall body of work considering the ownership that was so cheap is pretty good. This is their 48th year of existence and they have played for 7 championships, not to bad and better than most franchises. Also the NFL has always been about dynasties. Hallas' Bears, Lombardi's Packers, Knoll's Steelers, Landry's Cowboys, Shula's Dolphins, Jimmy Jones' Cowboys, the Niners with and without Walsh, and now Belicheck's Patriots. Being one of the 8 greatest dynasties, and maybe THE greatest dynasty in football history considering they work within a world of extreme player movement and financially imposed parity, is impressive and not a joke. Also over the last 11 years they've been to more SBs than any other franchise. So for over 22% of their existence they have been one of the most dominating teams in football history. Sorry, that's no joke.

If you make any legit point against there team you're an idiot and know nothing about football.  And if you make a comparison/analysis with or about another team it's wrong, despite them knowing next to nothing about said team. 
Given that not only myself but others have given statistical evidence to some of your Giants claims and yet you respond with blanket statements questioning Pats fans football knowledge and how " there is NO WAY every other person here is like that when it comes to football."and the manner in which we follow football, I find it difficult you can even make that claim.

Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2007, 09:10:55 PM »

Online wdleehi

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The last two statements are what we are talking about.


Somehow, this thread is mutating into a Pat vs. Giants thread.  For what reasons but to try to agitate other posters.

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Re: A reminder about conduct in the Patriots / Football forum
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2007, 09:14:00 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Exactly.  The thread warning people NOT to make every thread into a Giants vs. Pats thread is now going in that very direction.  It needs to stop.

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