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I dont think the one playoff game is enough to get his trade stock too high.

I can however see a scenario where Sully really does get into shape, and is able to stay on the floor for 35 mpg and put up double doubles. A chiseled in shape Sully could easily be a 16 and 10 guy, Then we should trade him in season.

No point in trading him now.
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Celtics Talk / Re: Only saw one difference in smart tonight
« Last post by Greenbean on Today at 06:38:56 AM »
an after thought:
last year before the draf or right after we drafted Marcus i saw this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuyD3JOwnug

witch lead me to believe that this guy jumps out off the building(read uses a lot more of his ahleticism in his game). Don't get me wrond, i don't expect him do dunk windmills over howard or anything like that, it's just that when you watch him( and i watched every summer leauge, preseason and regular and playoff game) you don't get the sence that he is athletic, more of an under the rim type of a guy, witch i found to be a little dissappointing.

But i love this guy, his defense alone is a game changer and if he continues to improve his game on the other end, he will be a force in this league.
I think he saves his athelticism for more lateral movement where he really shines.

I think he can get a step on most defenders and he uses his strength well. Also when he jumps in the lane, I see him hanging alot, looking for contact. No necessarily just going straight up looking for a jam.

So I agree, we never see him soaring for dunks, but that doesnt mean he isnt using his athelticism during the game.

I know alot of guys are left thinking Smart doesnt look athletic, but I see a guy who uses his athelticism well, but he could certainly improve his first step.

I have heard people say he doesnt have any explosiveness. I think that is off. Look at his explosive movement on defense. I think the more he develops his offensive game, he will learn how to set guys up and get by them on the first step as opposed to the 2nd or 2rd.

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If I have a 21 year old who has already shown flashes of skill and has clear potential tog et better...and a 19 year old who's shown no signs of skill and you just have to HOPE he can develop some...then I'm going to take the 21 year old every time.



Young has obviously shown skill.  And you would've missed out on some great NBA players.

Like who?

Can you make me a list of some players who put up first year stats similar to James Young, looked no better in their second year, and then went on to become great players?

I'm talking recent times here, like past 10-15 years.

You might be right and there might be a stack of them, but I can't think of any.

From what I can see the only thing Young is especially good at is shooting, but even as a shooter he's not spectacular - just good.  It's not like he's Ray Allen 2.0 or anything.

Sure.  "Great" is a loaded word, but here are some guys who stunk/couldn't get off the bench in year one, didn't do much better in year 2, and then became valuable players that most C's fans would want/have wanted on the team.  Also, I will list first the player's age as a rookie.  Keep in mind Young was 19, and will be younger than most or all of the players listed.

Kyle Lowry (20) -- Barely played his rookie year (10 games), and shot under 37% from the field.  Year 2-3 he shot 25% from 3.  Year 4 he improved to 27%.  Since that time he's improved to a good shooter, and has upped his career average to 35%, and even made an All-Star game.  His passing stats were always decent, but as Young doesn't compare since he's not a point guard, that's not fair.  His shooting improved from bad to very good, beginning in year 5.

Arron Afflalo (22) - He shot 20% from 3 his rookie year, in way more playing time than Young had.  He improved his 3-point shooting in year 2 to 40%, but saw his PER tumble from 10.2 to 8.9.  (Young's PER last year was 8.7).  He's since turned into a valuable wing, albeit not a star.

Jeff Teague (21) - Ddin't get much playing time and struggled during his rookie year.  Under 41% from the field, and 22% from 3.  Took his step forward in season 2.

DeMarre Carroll (23) - Stunk his first three years in the league, with poor shooting percentages, little playing time, and PERs of 8.5, 8.7, and 11.0, respectively.

John Wall (20) - Just looking at shooting stats, he was not good.  eFG% of under .43 each of two years -- managed to go 3-42 from 3 his second year. PER okay because he did other point-guardy things Young isn't asked to do.

Anyway, there's a few, from the 2006-2011 drafts.  I'm sure there are more -- just aimed for guards/wings like Young.

John Wall averaged 15 / 7 / 4 with 1.8 steals Per 36 (and that's rounding down) in his rookie year and showcased elite athletic ability - he was never a guy who struggled to earn playing time.  His potential was obvious from the start, regardless of his shooting ability.


Kyle Lowry and Jeff Teague struggled to get playing time and put up pretty mediocre Per-36 numbers offensively, but both showed signs of being multi dimensional players.  Both guys were skilled passers and ball handlers, as well as being solid defenders and rebounders.  When a guy shows that type of versatility, I'd give them a second chance too.

Afflalo and Carroll are closer comparisons, and neither of those guys is even close to being a great player.  Even in those cases, both Carroll and Afflalo were known as being solid defensive players (which James Young is NOT known for) and good defenders tend to always find a place on teams.

Young only played 31 games last year (couldn't even get on the court aside from garbage time), and in those games he averaged 11 points, 5 rebounds and 1.4 assists per 36 while shooting 35% / 26% / 55% and his defense was horrible. 

I know it's not an especially popular opinion, but I just don't think that Young will even be much better than E'Twaun Moore, in all honesty.

I'm going to cop a lot of flak for this, but I honestly don't see Young being any better "right now" than Fab Melo was in his rookie year.  The difference is that at least Fab Melo had some elite attributes (size, shot blocking) and may have had some hope of carving a niche as a pure role player...wheras Young hasn't really got anything. 

His shooting is really NOT good enough to the point where he can get by as a role player based purely on his shooting ability.  For you be a guy who can do nothing but shoot, and still get minutes, you need to be a Kyle Kover / JJ Reddick / Steve Kerr caliber shooter.  Young is more of an Mikeal Pietrus caliber shooter.

I mean, if you have your conclusion ahead of time, why ask?

Of course John Wall didn't struggle to get playing time -- the Wizards were God-awful and he was the number 1 pick.  But he couldn't shoot a lick, as his eFG% was lower than Young's -- again, he went 3-42 from 3.  That's simply terrible, and I can't imagine this board if he were a Celtic.  He made Rondo look like Ray Allen.

Same was true with Lowry -- not at all a capable shooter.  Apparently he doesn't count because he barely played, whereas Young's lack of playing time deems him unsalvageable.  Sure, he and Wall and Teague got to get assists, because they were PG instead of a wing like Young, but I said I was looking at shooting.  These were perimeter players who couldn't shoot (you're the one who defined Young as a shooter), and are now guards who are either passable to a downright weapon when scoring.

Also, I on purpose only looked at guards picked in the first round, not bigs, or 2nd-round/undradted types, because a) it would be unfair to compare a guard to a center in terms of development, and b) I was trying to avoid some player who overachieved.  I only looked at a couple of years, and it was a quick search at 1 am.

Age is a really important factor, and all of these players were older than Young.  Some several years older.  But again, if you want to believe that Young is the worst player ever, why ask for examples?  It's a waste of discussion.  So just start off the bat and say that he's the worst thing ever and no one will convince you otherwise.  It would have saved me 20 minutes.
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Celtics Talk / Re: Only saw one difference in smart tonight
« Last post by Greenbean on Today at 06:31:23 AM »
I loved what I saw from Smart last night. Granted he missed a ton of 3's, but if he is going to develop into an aggressive offensive player, he needs the outside shot to keep defenses honest.

If this first game is any indication, he is going to really try to turn into the player he looked like in college. Looks like he has 2 goals, keep developing the 3pt shot, and get to the basket more consistently. He'll never be a lights out shooter, but I am willing to bet hell turn into a good streaky shooter from deep who can hit big shots. And if hes getting to the line a ton, that is totlly fine.

Im thrilled that he has not explored a mid range game. Its either chuck a 3, or drive to the basket (in addition to facilitating).




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Yeah Turner is another guy that would make sense to trade as his contract is up after this year and may be able to get more than he is worth to us. He is not imo a long term answer but he did win us a lot of games that we would have otherwise lost with his ball handling playmaking and scoring streaks. If smart or Rozier can step up, fine. if not, it costs us some games and the idea at least with Noah or Big Al is to win as many games as you can now and hope for Durrant or someone good again next summer. Little by little, better and better until we get a big fish.

Noah might be a good target. He makes like 13 mil next year and thats his last year right? They have Taj and Gasol and Mirotic so it wouldn't kill them to lose Noah. I wonder what they feel about his free agency next summer. Here are some stony spitball trade ideas to get Noah

Turner Sully KO and Young for Noah
Sully Wallace and pick(s)* for Noah  *1 Nets of 2 other 1sts

Are those offers realistic? Maybe add another 1st to each?
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I think the best thing to do is wait until Sully plays well in his contract year and then trade him to some team that has bought in to re-signing him. Otherwise, he doesn't have a heck of a lot of value right now. If he plays the same as before his value will just kind of stay the same. If he plays worse/gets injured again, he walks or we get him for cheap money.

Even if he does improve I'm not confident that he will keep it up after signing a big deal. People do mature but he strikes me as someone who learned bad habits as a kid since he was more talented than anyone else. He never needed to get in shape before, but now he's in the NBA and he can't muscle people around. Still, he's talented enough to "get by" and that's what I think he'll do: have a 10-year+ career of being a fringe starter and backup.

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Around the NBA / Re: Where does Perk end up?
« Last post by LGC88 on Today at 05:40:24 AM »
if he really is avaliable, can there be a better place for him than LAC?
IMHO Perk is no longer a NBA player, or at most a 3rd C off the bench:
- overrated defender
- can't shoot FT
- non factor on offense
- too slow
- low BBIQ

True. He can still bump people if necessary though.
Please move on nostalgic fans. The Perkins you know has been gone 3 years ago at least.
He has nothing to do with modern nba. Next lining up : Hibbert.
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Celtics Talk / Re: Only saw one difference in smart tonight
« Last post by makaveli on Today at 05:35:28 AM »
an after thought:
last year before the draf or right after we drafted Marcus i saw this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuyD3JOwnug

witch lead me to believe that this guy jumps out off the building(read uses a lot more of his ahleticism in his game). Don't get me wrond, i don't expect him do dunk windmills over howard or anything like that, it's just that when you watch him( and i watched every summer leauge, preseason and regular and playoff game) you don't get the sence that he is athletic, more of an under the rim type of a guy, witch i found to be a little dissappointing.

But i love this guy, his defense alone is a game changer and if he continues to improve his game on the other end, he will be a force in this league.
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Celtics Talk / Re: Preseason Game 1 grades
« Last post by Birdman on Today at 05:34:18 AM »
Young is garbage..said it last year..wasted pick and im a UK fan
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Celtics Talk / Re: Only saw one difference in smart tonight
« Last post by shrinkage36 on Today at 05:33:03 AM »
I hate that you guys are going to be miserable because he's here and he's here to stay, so good luck in the misery.
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