CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: perks-a-beast on July 16, 2018, 03:07:29 PM
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
Honestly this may be the best thing that has happened to the Celtics in the past couple years that barely anyone talks about and people overlook..imagine facing a Simmons/Porzingiz/Embiid lineup for years to come...no thanks. Nobody would be debating if “the process” was worth it because that team would probably win multiple titles (if healthy) even with Golden State still near their peak.
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
Honestly this may be the best thing that has happened to the Celtics in the past couple years that barely anyone talks about and people overlook..imagine facing a Simmons/Porzingiz/Embiid lineup for years to come...no thanks. Nobody would be debating if “the process” was worth it because that team would probably win multiple titles (if healthy) even with Golden State still near their peak.
to be fair to the Sixers (against my natural instincts), Okafor was considered more of a sure thing whereas Porzingis was a riskier pick. Okafor showed himself to be what he was expected to be --> an offensively-minded center that lived in the post with limited defensive skills. problem for Okafor and the Sixers is that the NBA has made that skill set irrelevant.
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No shooting no spacing.... a slow team with 2 centers... they would not beat the warriors or the celtics
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Lottery is a crapshoot. It's obvious that Porzingis is the better player now. But not quite that obvious at the time of the draft.
Just going to this year alone. The Atlanta Hawks might get murdered for their choice to take Trae Young over Doncic a few years down the road.
Or how about the Sixers trading Mikal Bridges for Zhaire Smith and a pick. Will this be seen as a blunder in a couple of years, or will it be seen as a coup, the way the Jayson Tatum trade down is now viewed?
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My memory is that Porzingis refused to work out for the Sixers.
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My memory is that Porzingis refused to work out for the Sixers.
Yep
https://www.complex.com/sports/2016/01/ristaps-porzingis-refused-to-work-out-for-76ers-2015-nba-draft-new-york-knicks
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
1984 called, they want their title as "Worst draft decision ever" back. ;)
Mike
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I'll tell you what, it's not as bad as Thabeet over Curry, Harden, Derozan, Rubio, etc.
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My memory is that Porzingis refused to work out for the Sixers.
Yep
https://www.complex.com/sports/2016/01/ristaps-porzingis-refused-to-work-out-for-76ers-2015-nba-draft-new-york-knicks
broken clock
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
Honestly this may be the best thing that has happened to the Celtics in the past couple years that barely anyone talks about and people overlook..imagine facing a Simmons/Porzingiz/Embiid lineup for years to come...no thanks. Nobody would be debating if “the process” was worth it because that team would probably win multiple titles (if healthy) even with Golden State still near their peak.
to be fair to the Sixers (against my natural instincts), Okafor was considered more of a sure thing whereas Porzingis was a riskier pick. Okafor showed himself to be what he was expected to be --> an offensively-minded center that lived in the post with limited defensive skills. problem for Okafor and the Sixers is that the NBA has made that skill set irrelevant.
I wouldn't say its irrelevant and Porzingas hasn't really made the Knicks great or anything. Nowadays you just want your C to be able to switch in the P&R and that is about as far away from Okafor's skill set as you can get. Same reason we couldn't really use Monroe. Doesn't mean they are bad players it's just nowadays teams like to switch on very P&R. That's why we went out and got Williams..
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
Honestly this may be the best thing that has happened to the Celtics in the past couple years that barely anyone talks about and people overlook..imagine facing a Simmons/Porzingiz/Embiid lineup for years to come...no thanks. Nobody would be debating if “the process” was worth it because that team would probably win multiple titles (if healthy) even with Golden State still near their peak.
Yeah, you could almost make the same claim to the Lakers taking Russell at 2 in that same draft. Although he is still in the league.
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
Honestly this may be the best thing that has happened to the Celtics in the past couple years that barely anyone talks about and people overlook..imagine facing a Simmons/Porzingiz/Embiid lineup for years to come...no thanks. Nobody would be debating if “the process” was worth it because that team would probably win multiple titles (if healthy) even with Golden State still near their peak.
Yeah, you could almost make the same claim to the Lakers taking Russell at 2 in that same draft. Although he is still in the league.
You're probably getting ahead of yourselves on Zinger. He's good but has a bit to go to be a player that eats you up every time you think you passed on him..
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Let's see what happens with the Kings pick and what Fultz becomes, because that could be even more disastrous since it basically constitutes blowing 2 drafts.
Plus, let's say in terms of value right it goes like this:
Tatum
Porzingis (especially considering the injury)
Fultz
Okafor
If that Kings pick eclipses, or is at least on par, with Porzingis then that would be a bigger miss than the Okafor pick.
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
1984 called, they want their title as "Worst draft decision ever" back. ;)
Mike
Yeah, nothing is going to be a worst draft decision than bypassing Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie. Heck I am not so sure its even as bad as taking Darko over Melo, Wade or Bosh.
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What a bad draft it turned out to be. So much hype yet the only top players coming out of the lottery are Porzingis, Booker and possibly Towns.
The consolation for Philly is that the player they wanted was Russell and that hasn't exactly worked out either. We really should be questioning the LA pick as well. They should have picked Porzingis, as a few analysts like Kevin O'connor were saying, yet I don't recall them ever seriously considering him..
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Nothing will ever top Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan.
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I'll tell you what, it's not as bad as Thabeet over Curry, Harden, Derozan, Rubio, etc.
Yeah. Joe Smith going #1 in '95, Olowokandi goin #1 in '98 (Robert Trailer going ahead of Nowitzki and Pierce the same year), Darko in '03, Adam Morrison going #3 in '06, and Sam Bowie over Jordan as others have mentioned... There's a long list of bad draft choices.
And can we wait until Porzingis actually accomplishes something before we start talking about worst draft decision in history?
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Oden Durant needs to be on the list too
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
1984 called, they want their title as "Worst draft decision ever" back. ;)
Mike
Yeah, nothing is going to be a worst draft decision than bypassing Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie. Heck I am not so sure its even as bad as taking Darko over Melo, Wade or Bosh.
that's hardly the worst draft decision ever.
Bowie, when healthy, was a really good player. sure, question picking him due to his well known health issues with his legs, but he was a talented player. also, there was no one who could have seen Jordan becoming a top all-time player. all-star for sure but Portland already had Drexler.
for me, the all-time blown draft decision would have to involve a high risk player that was a bust taken before a player that had a high ceiling and high floor. Bowie/Jordan isn't that situation.
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Darko in front of Melo/Bosh/Wade on a Pistons team that could have won multiple titles was the worst pick ever in the moment not just in hindsight.
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I would have drafted Zinger ahead of Okafor at the time. Really was unimpressed with Okafor.
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Not even in the conversation as the worst draft decision ever. Probably doesn’t make the top 50.
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Not even in the conversation as the worst draft decision ever. Probably doesn’t make the top 50.
Yeah, KP would have to do a lot more (and stay healthy, first and foremost)
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
1984 called, they want their title as "Worst draft decision ever" back. ;)
Mike
Yeah, nothing is going to be a worst draft decision than bypassing Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie. Heck I am not so sure its even as bad as taking Darko over Melo, Wade or Bosh.
that's hardly the worst draft decision ever.
Bowie, when healthy, was a really good player. sure, question picking him due to his well known health issues with his legs, but he was a talented player. also, there was no one who could have seen Jordan becoming a top all-time player. all-star for sure but Portland already had Drexler.
for me, the all-time blown draft decision would have to involve a high risk player that was a bust taken before a player that had a high ceiling and high floor. Bowie/Jordan isn't that situation.
So, would that be Oden/Durant?
We all knew Durant WOULD be a great scorer in this league, but he elevated his game to perennial top-3 status. About the only knock on him was how frail he was.
Oden we knew COULD be a dominant defender and good offensive player but all the health concerns had to be in the medical report. His back, his legs, even his thumb. When you see a guy like Porter drop the way he did, it makes you wonder what Portland was thinking back then.
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Hindsight is of huge assistance in these situations, and I wouldn't be too harsh on any front office. Having said this...
It's either Bennett or Milicic.
The argument for Detroit is that they selected Milicic over better and safer choices and that the 2013 draft class was weaker than the 2003 draft.
The argument for Cleveland is that Anthony Bennett has had the worst career of a nr 1 pick ever, and it's not even close.
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Hindsight is of huge assistance in these situations, and I wouldn't be too harsh on any front office. Having said this...
It's either Bennett or Milicic.
The argument for Detroit is that they selected Milicic over better and safer choices and that the 2013 draft class was weaker than the 2003 draft.
The argument for Cleveland is that Anthony Bennett has had the worst career of a nr 1 pick ever, and it's not even close.
I'm not as hard on Bennett because everyone knew he shouldn't have been the #1 pick. Only Cleveland and their bad management thought that and ultimately set that guy up to fail.
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
1984 called, they want their title as "Worst draft decision ever" back. ;)
Mike
Yeah, nothing is going to be a worst draft decision than bypassing Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie. Heck I am not so sure its even as bad as taking Darko over Melo, Wade or Bosh.
that's hardly the worst draft decision ever.
Bowie, when healthy, was a really good player. sure, question picking him due to his well known health issues with his legs, but he was a talented player. also, there was no one who could have seen Jordan becoming a top all-time player. all-star for sure but Portland already had Drexler.
for me, the all-time blown draft decision would have to involve a high risk player that was a bust taken before a player that had a high ceiling and high floor. Bowie/Jordan isn't that situation.
So, would that be Oden/Durant?
We all knew Durant WOULD be a great scorer in this league, but he elevated his game to perennial top-3 status. About the only knock on him was how frail he was.
Oden we knew COULD be a dominant defender and good offensive player but all the health concerns had to be in the medical report. His back, his legs, even his thumb. When you see a guy like Porter drop the way he did, it makes you wonder what Portland was thinking back then.
I didn't provide a 'winner' mainly because I hadn't come up with a really clear 'winner'. I don't think the Oden/Durant pick by Portland fits for the same reason Bowie/Jordan doesn't fit.
I'm thinking more along the lines of Darko at #2 by Detroit, Anthony Bennett at #1 by Cleveland and Michael Olowanki at #1 by the Clips --> players that were taken where they were based purely on conjecture over their development over players that were considered more of a sure thing at the time of the draft (and not several years later when time exposed the bad from the good picks). I'm sure there are some people here who can think back to the drafts in the 70's and 60's who can come up with better examples.
also, I'm sort of on the fence as to whether to include players taken "high" in the draft who busted out due to drug issues rather than talent issues--> William Bedford and Chris Washburn are prime examples.
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
1984 called, they want their title as "Worst draft decision ever" back. ;)
Mike
Yeah, nothing is going to be a worst draft decision than bypassing Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie. Heck I am not so sure its even as bad as taking Darko over Melo, Wade or Bosh.
that's hardly the worst draft decision ever.
Bowie, when healthy, was a really good player. sure, question picking him due to his well known health issues with his legs, but he was a talented player. also, there was no one who could have seen Jordan becoming a top all-time player. all-star for sure but Portland already had Drexler.
for me, the all-time blown draft decision would have to involve a high risk player that was a bust taken before a player that had a high ceiling and high floor. Bowie/Jordan isn't that situation.
So, would that be Oden/Durant?
We all knew Durant WOULD be a great scorer in this league, but he elevated his game to perennial top-3 status. About the only knock on him was how frail he was.
Oden we knew COULD be a dominant defender and good offensive player but all the health concerns had to be in the medical report. His back, his legs, even his thumb. When you see a guy like Porter drop the way he did, it makes you wonder what Portland was thinking back then.
I didn't provide a 'winner' mainly because I hadn't come up with a really clear 'winner'. I don't think the Oden/Durant pick by Portland fits for the same reason Bowie/Jordan doesn't fit.
I'm thinking more along the lines of Darko at #2 by Detroit, Anthony Bennett at #1 by Cleveland and Michael Olowanki at #1 by the Clips --> players that were taken where they were based purely on conjecture over their development over players that were considered more of a sure thing at the time of the draft (and not several years later when time exposed the bad from the good picks). I'm sure there are some people here who can think back to the drafts in the 70's and 60's who can come up with better examples.
also, I'm sort of on the fence as to whether to include players taken "high" in the draft who busted out due to drug issues rather than talent issues--> William Bedford and Chris Washburn are prime examples.
I wouldn't even put the Kandi man in that category, because he had so many injuries it is hard to say what he might have been. Obviously he wasn't going to be a star, but Kandi actually looked like a credible starter until he got hurt in the 02/03 season (averaging 12/9 when he got hurt) and was never the same again.
Thabeet should definitely be in consideration though. Thabeet was awful. Jonny Flynn from that same draft might have been even worse (though Flynn was 6 and not 2 like Thabeet).
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
1984 called, they want their title as "Worst draft decision ever" back. ;)
Mike
Yeah, nothing is going to be a worst draft decision than bypassing Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie. Heck I am not so sure its even as bad as taking Darko over Melo, Wade or Bosh.
that's hardly the worst draft decision ever.
Bowie, when healthy, was a really good player. sure, question picking him due to his well known health issues with his legs, but he was a talented player. also, there was no one who could have seen Jordan becoming a top all-time player. all-star for sure but Portland already had Drexler.
for me, the all-time blown draft decision would have to involve a high risk player that was a bust taken before a player that had a high ceiling and high floor. Bowie/Jordan isn't that situation.
So, would that be Oden/Durant?
We all knew Durant WOULD be a great scorer in this league, but he elevated his game to perennial top-3 status. About the only knock on him was how frail he was.
Oden we knew COULD be a dominant defender and good offensive player but all the health concerns had to be in the medical report. His back, his legs, even his thumb. When you see a guy like Porter drop the way he did, it makes you wonder what Portland was thinking back then.
I didn't provide a 'winner' mainly because I hadn't come up with a really clear 'winner'. I don't think the Oden/Durant pick by Portland fits for the same reason Bowie/Jordan doesn't fit.
I'm thinking more along the lines of Darko at #2 by Detroit, Anthony Bennett at #1 by Cleveland and Michael Olowanki at #1 by the Clips --> players that were taken where they were based purely on conjecture over their development over players that were considered more of a sure thing at the time of the draft (and not several years later when time exposed the bad from the good picks). I'm sure there are some people here who can think back to the drafts in the 70's and 60's who can come up with better examples.
also, I'm sort of on the fence as to whether to include players taken "high" in the draft who busted out due to drug issues rather than talent issues--> William Bedford and Chris Washburn are prime examples.
I wouldn't even put the Kandi man in that category, because he had so many injuries it is hard to say what he might have been. Obviously he wasn't going to be a star, but Kandi actually looked like a credible starter until he got hurt in the 02/03 season (averaging 12/9 when he got hurt) and was never the same again.
Thabeet should definitely be in consideration though. Thabeet was awful. Jonny Flynn from that same draft might have been even worse (though Flynn was 6 and not 2 like Thabeet).
Thabeet would be another good example. Flynn at 6 seems to be stretching it a bit far into the draft for me to think of him as the all-time bad pick.
I'll stick with Kandiman as a solid choice --> never developed into much of a player regardless of whether he was injured or not. solid starter at his best which is woefully insufficient for the top pick in the draft. Clips passed over a number of players considered to have at least as high of a ceiling with a high floor to boot --> Vince Carter, Antawn Jamison, Paul Pierce, Raef Lafrentz (who was pretty darn good pre-injuries and pre-Celtics), Dirk Nowitzki and Mike Bibby. heck, even Cuttino Mobley at #41 had a much better career than Kandiman.
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
1984 called, they want their title as "Worst draft decision ever" back. ;)
Mike
Yeah, nothing is going to be a worst draft decision than bypassing Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie. Heck I am not so sure its even as bad as taking Darko over Melo, Wade or Bosh.
that's hardly the worst draft decision ever.
Bowie, when healthy, was a really good player. sure, question picking him due to his well known health issues with his legs, but he was a talented player. also, there was no one who could have seen Jordan becoming a top all-time player. all-star for sure but Portland already had Drexler.
for me, the all-time blown draft decision would have to involve a high risk player that was a bust taken before a player that had a high ceiling and high floor. Bowie/Jordan isn't that situation.
So, would that be Oden/Durant?
We all knew Durant WOULD be a great scorer in this league, but he elevated his game to perennial top-3 status. About the only knock on him was how frail he was.
Oden we knew COULD be a dominant defender and good offensive player but all the health concerns had to be in the medical report. His back, his legs, even his thumb. When you see a guy like Porter drop the way he did, it makes you wonder what Portland was thinking back then.
I didn't provide a 'winner' mainly because I hadn't come up with a really clear 'winner'. I don't think the Oden/Durant pick by Portland fits for the same reason Bowie/Jordan doesn't fit.
I'm thinking more along the lines of Darko at #2 by Detroit, Anthony Bennett at #1 by Cleveland and Michael Olowanki at #1 by the Clips --> players that were taken where they were based purely on conjecture over their development over players that were considered more of a sure thing at the time of the draft (and not several years later when time exposed the bad from the good picks). I'm sure there are some people here who can think back to the drafts in the 70's and 60's who can come up with better examples.
also, I'm sort of on the fence as to whether to include players taken "high" in the draft who busted out due to drug issues rather than talent issues--> William Bedford and Chris Washburn are prime examples.
I wouldn't even put the Kandi man in that category, because he had so many injuries it is hard to say what he might have been. Obviously he wasn't going to be a star, but Kandi actually looked like a credible starter until he got hurt in the 02/03 season (averaging 12/9 when he got hurt) and was never the same again.
Thabeet should definitely be in consideration though. Thabeet was awful. Jonny Flynn from that same draft might have been even worse (though Flynn was 6 and not 2 like Thabeet).
Thabeet would be another good example. Flynn at 6 seems to be stretching it a bit far into the draft for me to think of him as the all-time bad pick.
I'll stick with Kandiman as a solid choice --> never developed into much of a player regardless of whether he was injured or not. solid starter at his best which is woefully insufficient for the top pick in the draft. Clips passed over a number of players considered to have at least as high of a ceiling with a high floor to boot --> Vince Carter, Antawn Jamison, Paul Pierce, Raef Lafrentz (who was pretty darn good pre-injuries and pre-Celtics), Dirk Nowitzki and Mike Bibby. heck, even Cuttino Mobley at #41 had a much better career than Kandiman.
Oh no question there were better players, a lot of them, but Kandi was better than LaFrentz before he got hurt. Kandi was a better rebounder, he was a better passer, etc. That was sort of the point I was making about injuries. Raef had 3 point range, something Kandi didn't, but that was the only thing you could definitively say in favor of Raef over Kandi. Then Kandi got hurt and fell off a cliff. Injuries matter a great deal in these things. Kandi still would have been a bad pick (even a bust) had he not gotten hurt, but he would have never been considered in the same breadth as Bennett, Thabeet, Milicic, etc. He would have had a much better career than that.
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Will it go down as one of the worst draft decisions in history? It sure seems so. I know Porzingiz has injury concerns but if he pans out he is poised to be one of the best international players to ever play. Okafor, on the other hand, can’t even seem to get a minimum contract..I’ll actually be surprised if he’s playing in the NBA next year.
1984 called, they want their title as "Worst draft decision ever" back. ;)
Mike
Yeah, nothing is going to be a worst draft decision than bypassing Michael Jordan for Sam Bowie. Heck I am not so sure its even as bad as taking Darko over Melo, Wade or Bosh.
that's hardly the worst draft decision ever.
Bowie, when healthy, was a really good player. sure, question picking him due to his well known health issues with his legs, but he was a talented player. also, there was no one who could have seen Jordan becoming a top all-time player. all-star for sure but Portland already had Drexler.
for me, the all-time blown draft decision would have to involve a high risk player that was a bust taken before a player that had a high ceiling and high floor. Bowie/Jordan isn't that situation.
So, would that be Oden/Durant?
We all knew Durant WOULD be a great scorer in this league, but he elevated his game to perennial top-3 status. About the only knock on him was how frail he was.
Oden we knew COULD be a dominant defender and good offensive player but all the health concerns had to be in the medical report. His back, his legs, even his thumb. When you see a guy like Porter drop the way he did, it makes you wonder what Portland was thinking back then.
I didn't provide a 'winner' mainly because I hadn't come up with a really clear 'winner'. I don't think the Oden/Durant pick by Portland fits for the same reason Bowie/Jordan doesn't fit.
I'm thinking more along the lines of Darko at #2 by Detroit, Anthony Bennett at #1 by Cleveland and Michael Olowanki at #1 by the Clips --> players that were taken where they were based purely on conjecture over their development over players that were considered more of a sure thing at the time of the draft (and not several years later when time exposed the bad from the good picks). I'm sure there are some people here who can think back to the drafts in the 70's and 60's who can come up with better examples.
also, I'm sort of on the fence as to whether to include players taken "high" in the draft who busted out due to drug issues rather than talent issues--> William Bedford and Chris Washburn are prime examples.
One problem I see in your logic in not including Bowie over MJ, or even Oden over Durant is most in the decision making processes in the league at those times still valued centers as the most necessary and important position on the floor. The game still revolved around the big man.
Hakeem and Bowie were chosen over Jordan not because those GMs thought Jordan was an inferior talent or didn't know he would be exceptional but because he played a position of much less importance. Same with Oden. Most thought both KD and Oden were equal in talent but Oden played the 5, gotta take him. Same for the Kandyman. Same for tons of bad big players chosen in the top of the draft for decades.