CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: IDreamCeltics on July 15, 2018, 08:50:18 PM
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I'm interested in your opinions.
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I voted French Sullinger..i see nothing out of him
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Right now he's nowhere close to being as good as Sullinger - i.e. he's been a big zero - but I wouldn't give up on him just yet. He's still young.
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I'm a little confused by the title because he's only played 1 year in the NBA so far and most of that season he was in Maine.
Watching him in summer league, I have the same opinion I had at the end of last season. He's got the physicality and raw skills to be a productive NBA player but he sometimes looks like a kid who lost his parents at the mall. Whether he makes it will be a question of whether or not he gets NBA basketball, mentally.
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I'm a little confused by the title because he's only played 1 year in the NBA so far and most of that season he was in Maine.
Watching him in summer league, I have the same opinion I had at the end of last season. He's got the physicality and raw skills to be a productive NBA player but he sometimes looks like a kid who lost his parents at the mall. Whether he makes it will be a question of whether or not he gets NBA basketball, mentally.
Lmfa0 - TP ;D.
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maybe
NOT
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Garbage. Poor man's big baby Davis. Can't finish around the rim. Just okay versus scrubs. Cut him loose.
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I don’t see him ever developing into a valuable NBA player.
Y’all should pay attention to what I say because I said the same thing about Avery Bradley and Terry Rozier.
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He is a starter in the Euro leagues
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He is a starter in the Euro leagues
Not even sure he starts there. He's nowhere near the player Theis is, and he only played about 20 minutes a game. https://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/daniel-theis-1.html
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Sullinger looks to be a high goal for him.
I’d be surprised if he ever turns out to be a regular rotation player. Maybe a 9-10th man at best?
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he will not last here
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So far he hasn't shown enough to get our hopes up. There are some physical skills there that could be useful if he can improve. This year is key for him, he needs to show some growth. I sort of look at him as a second year guy, the year in China seems to have been a waste, so last year was the first year for him playing high level basketball.
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I like Hassan Martin better.
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I never really had much expectations for the guy, but he still managed to be a huge disappointment. That's how awful he is.
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If sully had that physique, we'd have ourselves a nice 4! Sully was really awesome in some ways ... but physique was not one of them. Held him back and cut his career.
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I don’t see him ever developing into a valuable NBA player.
Y’all should pay attention to what I say because I said the same thing about Avery Bradley and Terry Rozier.
Both AB and Rozier had great physical attributes for their position, great length and tremendous athleticism. They just needed time to learn to play the NBA game.
Yabu lacks both the length and hops to play NBA 4/5. He'll never be able to finish over length and will probably always be a liability defensively. His only hope is to become a high level playmaker on the 2nd unit
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Didn't think he was an NBA player back then, nothing so far to contradict.
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If sully had that physique, we'd have ourselves a nice 4! Sully was really awesome in some ways ... but physique was not one of them. Held him back and cut his career.
Sully had skills, his physical limitations did him in. Guy was just too ground bound
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My guess is this will be his last season for Boston
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If sully had that physique, we'd have ourselves a nice 4! Sully was really awesome in some ways ... but physique was not one of them. Held him back and cut his career.
Sully had skills, his physical limitations did him in. Guy was just too ground bound
Not really physical limitations either... he did just fine with his body before, was a plus player according to the eye test and stats...he just ate his way out of the league
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He is a starter in the Euro leagues
Not even sure he starts there. He's nowhere near the player Theis is, and he only played about 20 minutes a game. https://www.basketball-reference.com/euro/players/daniel-theis-1.html
Theis was defensive player of the year at the German league though, if I recall.
Maybe Euro players just get fewer minutes? My speculation anyway.
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Didn't think he was an NBA player back then, nothing so far to contradict.
Sigh. Same :-\.
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Yes. I like the look of him.
Good physical talent. Solid quickness laterally and end to end. Good strength and solid body size for an NBA PF. He has the physical talent to become a useful defender down the road. Good skill level. He can shoot the three. He can fake the shot and line drive. He can run the floor in transition. That is enough ways to score to be a valuable role player.
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Yes. I like the look of him.
Good physical talent. Solid quickness laterally and end to end. Good strength and solid body size for an NBA PF. He has the physical talent to become a useful defender down the road. Good skill level. He can shoot the three. He can fake the shot and line drive. He can run the floor in transition. That is enough ways to score to be a valuable role player.
^this. Dude is more skilled than most end of bench players (ntm he has good physical talent), he's almost certainly going to be a good bench piece given that he continues to hone his craft and improve at a reasonable level.
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He is a bust and lacks confidence in his game which will always hold him back.
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Bust. By this time next year he 'll be considered dead salary (assuming we pick up his option).
Just trade him now that he still has some value (hopefully). At this point, I 'd probably accept a mid second rounder for him.
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Yes. I like the look of him.
Good physical talent. Solid quickness laterally and end to end. Good strength and solid body size for an NBA PF. He has the physical talent to become a useful defender down the road. Good skill level. He can shoot the three. He can fake the shot and line drive. He can run the floor in transition. That is enough ways to score to be a valuable role player.
Yep. People are too quick to judge
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Yes. I like the look of him.
Good physical talent. Solid quickness laterally and end to end. Good strength and solid body size for an NBA PF. He has the physical talent to become a useful defender down the road. Good skill level. He can shoot the three. He can fake the shot and line drive. He can run the floor in transition. That is enough ways to score to be a valuable role player.
Today, Yabu is a minus defender - even for a bench player. If I had to defend a series of plays, I would (much) rather have Hassan Martin. He gives away nothing in strength or size to Yabu, but has quicker feet and better anticipation, and he's much faster off the floor. Martin can't shoot from distance, but he knows how to put the ball in if he gets an offensive rebound or catches a pass a few feet from the basket - where Yabu struggles.
Martin is also going to make about $2.6 million less - which (if Smart signs for more than the QO) might be the difference between staying under the luxury tax line one more year and going over. Putting off the repeater tax is worth a lot - it's likely going to cost tens of millions when it hits, which could be just as Tatum needs his second contract. I'd like to keep the core together. I suppose if Smart signs for the QO it might not matter, but it would be a shame to pay the lux tax this year because we're hoping that Yabu will someday find his game.
Here is one more point of comparison - this year, Yabu is going to be paid twice as much as Daniel Theis, even though Theis is at least twice the player.
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My take is that if he was on a less-disciplined team and got the playing time, he'd be in the upper teens in scoring.
If he played for a scoring-starved team last year like the Kings, Hawks, etc., people would be considering him an upper talent.
CBS won't let him get away with his bad habits on offense or defense, but Yabu is slowly making better decisions in those situations. The problem is that he is not free to unleash his scoring ability.
I still think he is a high-level talent, although his place in Boston's future is becoming murky.
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My take is that if he was on a less-disciplined team and got the playing time, he'd be in the upper teens in scoring.
If he played for a scoring-starved team last year like the Kings, Hawks, etc., people would be considering him an upper talent.
i
What are you basing this on? He’s an inefficient scorer even in the summer league. I’d be surprised to see him scoring at 16+ ppg even on a bad team.
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He looked pretty great and showed flashes in summer league. If he was cracking another teams rotation I think he’d turn a few heads. Not all start super star level but he’d be doing good things off the bench for the Kings, Hawks, Bulls, Suns.
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My take is that if he was on a less-disciplined team and got the playing time, he'd be in the upper teens in scoring.
If he played for a scoring-starved team last year like the Kings, Hawks, etc., people would be considering him an upper talent.
i
What are you basing this on? He’s an inefficient scorer even in the summer league. I’d be surprised to see him scoring at 16+ ppg even on a bad team.
Basketball is a game of rhythm. It's widely recognized that in summer league, big men struggle to get into rhythm.
I just see a lot of scoring talent. Just with his 3 point shooting and ability to attack closeouts, I could see him getting buckets. Combine that with offensive rebounds and post touches.
I fully recognize that we haven't seen the production for that, but I'm saying i've seen enough to think he has the talent for that.
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He's too short and too fat.
Trade him if u can.
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My take is that if he was on a less-disciplined team and got the playing time, he'd be in the upper teens in scoring.
If he played for a scoring-starved team last year like the Kings, Hawks, etc., people would be considering him an upper talent.
i
What are you basing this on? He’s an inefficient scorer even in the summer league. I’d be surprised to see him scoring at 16+ ppg even on a bad team.
Basketball is a game of rhythm. It's widely recognized that in summer league, big men struggle to get into rhythm.
I just see a lot of scoring talent. Just with his 3 point shooting and ability to attack closeouts, I could see him getting buckets. Combine that with offensive rebounds and post touches.
I fully recognize that we haven't seen the production for that, but I'm saying i've seen enough to think he has the talent for that.
He also made some good passes too. Someone making that kind of money and saying he needs to get into shape is my concern. I think if he worked as hard as Theis he could be an NBA player. I don't see the effort like i did not with Sully. Where's the fire?
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I'm not going to bury him after summer league. let's see how he looks in training camp and preseason playing with actual nba-caliber players.
I'm not expecting much from him except further development this season. If he's not showing any promise going into next training camp after another year with the team, then I'd consider him a lost pick. same timeframe I waited for Young to show he could be of value.
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My vote is "other". I never expected much out of him and thought a lot of posters overrated him, and I haven't seen anything to make me second guess that.
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If sully had that physique, we'd have ourselves a nice 4! Sully was really awesome in some ways ... but physique was not one of them. Held him back and cut his career.
Sully had skills, his physical limitations did him in. Guy was just too ground bound
Not really physical limitations either... he did just fine with his body before, was a plus player according to the eye test and stats...he just ate his way out of the league
I was watching some Sully clips from 2015, dude looked like he was playing in slow-motion. Like he was playing in a Godzilla costume or something..
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He has shown occasional flashes of having ability - he'll throw a couple of nice passes, hit a 3 with good form, takes it to the hoop with some quickness/agility that guys his size just don't have - and he is physical, a trait this team could certainly use more of. All of that is probably what enticed Ainge to begin with.
The problem is it's only flashes and there are large chunks of time where he does nothing except take and miss a lot of shots. It's too bad this wasn't European soccer where they could loan him out to the Nets for a full season so he'd get lots of minutes.
I don't see him improving much with the amount of PT he's going to get here. He needs to play and play against NBA competition.
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Your fourth option should have been "too early still".
His first year was in China, where according to the C's, he picked up a lot of bad habits, specifically on D.
Last year was his second year, and although he would show something every now and then, it was tough sledding.
I saw him in Vegas, and it looks like he has improved from last year (although it looks like his vertical leap is less than that of a turtle), I'm not holding my breath. He'll be dealt along the way some where....
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Pretty disappointed in Yabu this summer. Seems the same guy who played two summers ago. Thought he’d be able to attack more with the ball.
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The thread title says "three years later" - what?! He was drafted two years ago.
As far as a verdict goes, I'd say that he's an NBA player, with upside as a rotation player. He has an unusual build/skillset, which is an advantage. I don't think that his body will last at this level into his early 30's, maybe less.
As far as his future with the Celtics goes, I'd predict that he at least finishes the year. They think that he can make decisions, initiate offense, and shoot with range.
I just see a lot of scoring talent. Just with his 3 point shooting and ability to attack closeouts, I could see him getting buckets. Combine that with offensive rebounds and post touches.
I'll take these in order.
We could quibble about what "a lot of scoring talent" amounts to; I wouldn't say it that way. He does have a couple of ways to score. Big hands and great feet, good handles for his size, has some ability to drive it. If you believe the tiny sample size, he finished really well.
In spot minutes before the All-Star break, he looked like a reliable 3-pt shooter (.364) and an exceptional offensive rebounder (12.6%). After the break he averaged low rotation minutes and those numbers came down to earth. Because of the tougher defense playing against rotation players? Random drift? Rookie wall? All of the above?
Post touches? I'm skeptical. More likely is the new wrinkle that we saw in Summer League: they used him at the top of the circle as a facilitator, and with some success, too. He got a couple of nice assists out of it... That looks like a good role for him, initiating the offense à la Olynyk.
You did not mention his production at the foul line. He got to the line a lot for the possessions he used; he was a C-minus free throw shooter for the year, though A-minus after the break.
I fully recognize that we haven't seen the production for that, but I'm saying i've seen enough to think he has the talent for that.
I'd agree that he has the talent for it, and I'm with you when I say that at these sample sizes you've got to do some careful looking.
The sample sizes are tiny. There's a tendency on forums like this to put too much weight on FG%s and 3-pt %s, and regardless of how many shots we're looking at. (That's not an argument that he's actually in truth some kind of great shooter, either!). My rule of thumb is, what does the % look like if you add or subtract two or three makes? There's enough random stuff that goes on during a game and during a season that you need to look at a range, and that gives you a better sense of what to expect in future.
For the year he shot 12/37 for .324; that's below average but it's also about a point per shot, which is acceptable production for a possession. If he made 9/37 that would be .243; if he made 15/37 that would be .405 - that's a huge range, so the first thing to take away from his actual number is that it does not give you a good idea of his shooting. He's somewhere between catastrophic and golden.
Great footwork and size should translate into better individual defense and especially defensive rebounding. The defensive rebounding is critical for his future, and he's got a ways to go - with his butt, he really ought to be better at it. I thought he looked clueless on D in Summer League 2016, and especially during early offense, so he's advanced a fair amount, I'd say. "Better but not good."
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Your fourth option should have been "too early still".
His first year was in China, where according to the C's, he picked up a lot of bad habits, specifically on D.
Last year was his second year, and although he would show something every now and then, it was tough sledding.
I saw him in Vegas, and it looks like he has improved from last year (although it looks like his vertical leap is less than that of a turtle), I'm not holding my breath. He'll be dealt along the way some where....
Since you were there in person, I'd love to get more details. From what I saw he is the same player...no improvement.
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Guy just finished up his rookie year. Most outside-the-lottery developmental projects don't get a final verdict before they've even made it to their second training camp.
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The thread title says "three years later" - what?! He was drafted two years ago.
As far as a verdict goes, I'd say that he's an NBA player, with upside as a rotation player. He has an unusual build/skillset, which is an advantage. I don't think that his body will last at this level into his early 30's, maybe less.
As far as his future with the Celtics goes, I'd predict that he at least finishes the year. They think that he can make decisions, initiate offense, and shoot with range.
I just see a lot of scoring talent. Just with his 3 point shooting and ability to attack closeouts, I could see him getting buckets. Combine that with offensive rebounds and post touches.
I'll take these in order.
We could quibble about what "a lot of scoring talent" amounts to; I wouldn't say it that way. He does have a couple of ways to score. Big hands and great feet, good handles for his size, has some ability to drive it. If you believe the tiny sample size, he finished really well.
In spot minutes before the All-Star break, he looked like a reliable 3-pt shooter (.364) and an exceptional offensive rebounder (12.6%). After the break he averaged low rotation minutes and those numbers came down to earth. Because of the tougher defense playing against rotation players? Random drift? Rookie wall? All of the above?
Post touches? I'm skeptical. More likely is the new wrinkle that we saw in Summer League: they used him at the top of the circle as a facilitator, and with some success, too. He got a couple of nice assists out of it... That looks like a good role for him, initiating the offense à la Olynyk.
You did not mention his production at the foul line. He got to the line a lot for the possessions he used; he was a C-minus free throw shooter for the year, though A-minus after the break.
I fully recognize that we haven't seen the production for that, but I'm saying i've seen enough to think he has the talent for that.
I'd agree that he has the talent for it, and I'm with you when I say that at these sample sizes you've got to do some careful looking.
The sample sizes are tiny. There's a tendency on forums like this to put too much weight on FG%s and 3-pt %s, and regardless of how many shots we're looking at. (That's not an argument that he's actually in truth some kind of great shooter, either!). My rule of thumb is, what does the % look like if you add or subtract two or three makes? There's enough random stuff that goes on during a game and during a season that you need to look at a range, and that gives you a better sense of what to expect in future.
For the year he shot 12/37 for .324; that's below average but it's also about a point per shot, which is acceptable production for a possession. If he made 9/37 that would be .243; if he made 15/37 that would be .405 - that's a huge range, so the first thing to take away from his actual number is that it does not give you a good idea of his shooting. He's somewhere between catastrophic and golden.
Great footwork and size should translate into better individual defense and especially defensive rebounding. The defensive rebounding is critical for his future, and he's got a ways to go - with his butt, he really ought to be better at it. I thought he looked clueless on D in Summer League 2016, and especially during early offense, so he's advanced a fair amount, I'd say. "Better but not good."
I think this is the only way he'll carve out a role in the NBA from what I can see. Playmaking at the top of the key. He'll get eaten up down low but maybe from the high post he can do some damage..
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IMO At the time he was picked, we were loaded with young kids and draft picks. Danny chose him because he was stashable, and didn't demand immediate time on the Celtic squad.
I didn't like the pick then and I like it less now...time to say goodbye to the Dancing Bear.
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The thread title says "three years later" - what?! He was drafted two years ago.
As far as a verdict goes, I'd say that he's an NBA player, with upside as a rotation player. He has an unusual build/skillset, which is an advantage. I don't think that his body will last at this level into his early 30's, maybe less.
As far as his future with the Celtics goes, I'd predict that he at least finishes the year. They think that he can make decisions, initiate offense, and shoot with range.
I just see a lot of scoring talent. Just with his 3 point shooting and ability to attack closeouts, I could see him getting buckets. Combine that with offensive rebounds and post touches.
I'll take these in order.
We could quibble about what "a lot of scoring talent" amounts to; I wouldn't say it that way. He does have a couple of ways to score. Big hands and great feet, good handles for his size, has some ability to drive it. If you believe the tiny sample size, he finished really well.
In spot minutes before the All-Star break, he looked like a reliable 3-pt shooter (.364) and an exceptional offensive rebounder (12.6%). After the break he averaged low rotation minutes and those numbers came down to earth. Because of the tougher defense playing against rotation players? Random drift? Rookie wall? All of the above?
Post touches? I'm skeptical. More likely is the new wrinkle that we saw in Summer League: they used him at the top of the circle as a facilitator, and with some success, too. He got a couple of nice assists out of it... That looks like a good role for him, initiating the offense à la Olynyk.
You did not mention his production at the foul line. He got to the line a lot for the possessions he used; he was a C-minus free throw shooter for the year, though A-minus after the break.
I fully recognize that we haven't seen the production for that, but I'm saying i've seen enough to think he has the talent for that.
I'd agree that he has the talent for it, and I'm with you when I say that at these sample sizes you've got to do some careful looking.
The sample sizes are tiny. There's a tendency on forums like this to put too much weight on FG%s and 3-pt %s, and regardless of how many shots we're looking at. (That's not an argument that he's actually in truth some kind of great shooter, either!). My rule of thumb is, what does the % look like if you add or subtract two or three makes? There's enough random stuff that goes on during a game and during a season that you need to look at a range, and that gives you a better sense of what to expect in future.
For the year he shot 12/37 for .324; that's below average but it's also about a point per shot, which is acceptable production for a possession. If he made 9/37 that would be .243; if he made 15/37 that would be .405 - that's a huge range, so the first thing to take away from his actual number is that it does not give you a good idea of his shooting. He's somewhere between catastrophic and golden.
Great footwork and size should translate into better individual defense and especially defensive rebounding. The defensive rebounding is critical for his future, and he's got a ways to go - with his butt, he really ought to be better at it. I thought he looked clueless on D in Summer League 2016, and especially during early offense, so he's advanced a fair amount, I'd say. "Better but not good."
I think this is the only way he'll carve out a role in the NBA from what I can see. Playmaking at the top of the key. He'll get eaten up down low but maybe from the high post he can do some damage..
We also saw him in SL as the roll man, where he can use his bulk and handles and (apparent) finishing ability.
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I just don’t see how he’s going to get any minutes on this team to even try to improve. Better off for him to go to another team where he can get those minutes.
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Yabu can be a good replacement for Morris in 12 months time when Morris' contract expires.
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If sully had that physique, we'd have ourselves a nice 4! Sully was really awesome in some ways ... but physique was not one of them. Held him back and cut his career
I would like to challenge this statement. If Sully had the physique he would have ate his way out of shape because his problems were between his ears and he lacked willpower and was lazy.
Also, aside from rebounding and having a big rear what skills did he possess? He was terrible on D, could not shoot he was a holdover until we got better players and now is out of the league. Your statement is a prime example how faulty one's memory can be...
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I'm trying to figure out how 235 career regular season NBA minutes has somehow become "three years later"?
I dunno what folks expect sometimes. He's a #16 draft pick. His rookie year production was fairly nominal for a #16 draft pick. The last 9 #16 draft picks produced an average of 0.49 Win Shares. Yabusele produced 0.60. The last 9 #16 draft picks averaged a little over 300 minutes. Yabusele played 235 (plus another 48 in the playoffs). Four of those guys played more. Four of those guys played less.
One (Royce White) of those 9 guys was clearly not made for the NBA long term but most are at least rotation-quality: Nikola Vucevic, James Johnson, Just Nurkic, Luke Babbitt, Terry Rozier, Lucas Nogueira.
I'm not saying Yabusele will turn out to be as good as Nurkic of Vucevic or that he won't be out of the league in a few years like White. But it's almost certainly way too early to be certain of either outcome.