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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Eddie20 on June 22, 2018, 07:40:31 AM

Title: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Eddie20 on June 22, 2018, 07:40:31 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x7M3lYTMtQ

I'm not sure how many will watch the whole game, but it's interesting since both their respective teams played them at the 4, so they were actually going head-to-head.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Roy H. on June 22, 2018, 07:41:33 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x7M3lYTMtQ

I'm not sure how many will watch the whole game, but it's interesting since both their respective teams played them at the 4, so they were actually going head-to-head.

Anything in particular that stands out?  You're absolutely right, I won't be watching the entire game, haha.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Eddie20 on June 22, 2018, 07:53:31 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x7M3lYTMtQ

I'm not sure how many will watch the whole game, but it's interesting since both their respective teams played them at the 4, so they were actually going head-to-head.

Anything in particular that stands out?  You're absolutely right, I won't be watching the entire game, haha.

Williams was really miscast at Texas A & M, not only was he playing the 4, but he was also used in a lot of off-ball action. Mike Schmitz echoed this by calling him the best lob catcher in the draft, yet he was only used on 9 rim runs all season.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Roy H. on June 22, 2018, 07:57:34 AM
Mike Schmitz echoed this by calling him the best lob catcher in the draft, yet he was only used on 9 rim runs all season.

How can that even be?   I know the paint gets packed more in college, but that's wild.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Eddie20 on June 22, 2018, 08:03:34 AM
Mike Schmitz echoed this by calling him the best lob catcher in the draft, yet he was only used on 9 rim runs all season.

How can that even be?   I know the paint gets packed more in college, but that's wild.

Yeah, it was actually an astonishing stat. He said it on air, but also tweeted about it too.

@Mike_Schmitz
Robert Williams -- the draft's best lob-catcher -- was used as a roller only 17 times last season. Playing exclusively PF, he rolled to the rim on only 9 possessions in 30 games. Should he land with a strong organization, Williams could pop in the NBA.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Eddie20 on June 22, 2018, 08:12:35 AM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/23591050/five-potential-nba-draft-steals-break-next-level

Mike Schmitz
ESPN

Every year there are a few prospects who look far better at the NBA level than they did in college because of a variety of situational factors.

Jaylen Brown, an explosive driver and streaky shooter, was rarely able to tap into his aggressive slashing ability with much success at Cal. Playing almost exclusively the 2 and the 3 with two traditional big men clogging the paint, Brown struggled and analytics models said stay away near the top of the draft. Kyle Kuzma was used as more of a roller and post-up big man in Utah's structured half-court offense, unable to regularly unleash the best aspects of his offensive game.

Where a prospect lands is an essential factor in determining what type of pro he becomes, but it's also important to dive into each prospect's NCAA situation to find the next collegiate casualty turned draft day steal. Here are the names to watch in this draft.

Robert Williams | Texas A&M | C | Age: 20.5
There's no greater collegiate casualty in the draft than Williams. While he hasn't done himself any favors with his up-and-down motor, combine no-show and the fact that he's already on his second agent, A&M also robbed him of opportunities to play to his strengths.

1. Played PF not C, with no spacing

College basketball and the NBA look like two different sports at times, and A&M was a perfect example of that with two non-floor-spacing centers in Williams and Tyler Davis playing next to each other and a prototype stretch-4 in DJ Hogg at the 3. Williams played almost exclusively power forward -- a rare position for him at the NBA level.

There's one stat in particular that tells the story of how Williams wasn't used appropriately. At 6-foot-10 with a massive catch radius, elite agility and explosive leaping ability, Williams was used in only 16 pick-and-roll possessions in 30 games, according to Synergy Sports Technology. Sixteen. That's just over one pick-and-roll possession every two games, and he rolled on only nine possessions all year. Nine rolling possessions in 30 games for the draft's best lob-catcher who finished a ridiculous 73.7 percent of his shots at the rim.

Why so few pick-and-roll opportunities? With Davis camped out in the paint and at times only one other shooter on the floor, there was no room for Williams to roll when A&M did decide to put him in ball screens. Williams didn't always screen or dive as hard as he could, but part of that is a function of him knowing it was unlikely he'd have an open lane or an accurate lob thrown his way.


The Aggies used Williams as a high-low passer or stuck him in the short corner, giving the still-raw center little opportunity to use his freakish tools. Playing him at the 4 on defense also put him out of position to protect the rim at times. Although he's the best jump-shot swatter in the draft, he didn't quite learn the ins and outs of team defense at the center spot in two years at the collegiate level.



Where does Williams see himself positionally?

"Honestly wherever I'll make money is where I see myself," Williams told ESPN during the NCAA tournament. That will certainly be at center, in the Clint Capela mold.

2. Poor guard play

"I feel like I'll do well in the NBA because you got elite passers," Williams said. "You got guys like James Harden -- great passers."

Williams didn't have that with the Aggies, as A&M's guard play was uninspiring, to put it nicely. Far too many possessions looked like this:


Eventual starting point guard TJ Starks finished the season with 72 assists and 85 turnovers, regularly breaking free of the offense to create his own. With nowhere to roll and no one to throw him lobs, Williams floated, which bled over to other aspects of his game.

"It's just all effort, man, and that's honestly what I've been trying to improve on," Williams said. "This postseason my teammates have just been telling me I've got to keep my effort up, no [slacking]. I just try to keep that up and lead them."

Over the last five games of the season -- including three in the NCAA tournament -- Williams gave scouts a glimpse of what he can be at the NBA level, as he averaged 15.2 rebounds and 4.8 blocks per 40 minutes, all while playing out of position.

play
0:19
Texas A&M's Williams slams it home for alley-oop dunk Admon Gilder lobs it up high, and Robert Williams throws it down with a two-handed jam.

How will it change in the NBA?

Situation will be key for Williams, who needs to be in a structured environment with strong vets to live up to his sky-high potential. But even outside of that, any NBA coach with a modern outlook figures to see Williams' value as a rim runner, lob catcher, switch defender, rim protector and rebounder.

It will help to feed Williams a few lob attempts per game to keep him engaged on the defensive end of the floor, where he has the potential to be elite. Williams also has quite a bit of untapped potential as a passer, which could manifest itself in short roll situations when surrounded by shooters. While not every big man projected in the lottery fits where the NBA is headed, Williams is the ideal type of modern center that shines when surrounded by shooters and quick decision makers. He is loaded with tools and natural talent, and a playoff team with a winning culture would be smart to jump into the back end of the lottery to steal the center, who is without a doubt a top-10 talent.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Eddie20 on June 22, 2018, 08:22:50 AM
Pretty cool that Schmitz's pre-draft evaluation of Williams was the exact things Stevens said about him after he was selected.


Schmitz-
Nine rolling possessions in 30 games for the draft's best lob-catcher who finished a ridiculous 73.7 percent of his shots at the rim. With Davis camped out in the paint and at times only one other shooter on the floor, there was no room for Williams to roll when A&M did decide to put him in ball screens.

Stevens-
If you can have four shooters on the floor and a guy like that rolling to the rim, you can just throw it up in the air and go get it, finish it," Stevens said. "And I think that there's a lot of things that he brings to the table, but those are the things that translate sooner rather than later. As he continues to improve and improve his skill and everything else, we'll see where all that goes. But right now, he is an elite athlete and with incredible length.



Schmitz-
Williams also has quite a bit of untapped potential as a passer, which could manifest itself in short roll situations when surrounded by shooters.

Stevens-
As far as handling and passing, I think he's actually got a good foundation," he said shortly after the Celtics made the pick. "I think that he will improve his shot and get right to work on that. But I think handling and passing, I think he'll be able to do that and continue to get better at it.



Schmitz-
Situation will be key for Williams, who needs to be in a structured environment with strong vets to live up to his sky-high potential.

Stevens-
The atmosphere part is this — it’s the responsibility of those guys — Jayson (Tatum) and Jaylen (Brown) and the young players when Robert gets here for summer league, when he sees Al Horford working out in the weight room like he was today, or Gordon Hayward doing his rehab like he was today like other guys around the gym. The biggest key in the environment is, he has to come to work.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Sophomore on June 22, 2018, 08:32:22 AM
That’s the best case for optimism on Williams that I’ve read. Thanks for posting.

I’m still wondering, though. The teams that passed on him 1-26 probably have ESPN insider accounts. They knew this. So why did they pass on him? We’ve heard vague things about motor and off court problems. I have also read there were concerns about his knees (look at nbadraft.net’s pick evaluations for that).

Maybe the other teams all blew it. There’s a pretty solid record on picks at 27 over the past 10 years. Be pretty cool if the kid could put it together wearing green.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: kraidstar on June 22, 2018, 08:58:14 AM
Ainge is in the crowd scouting the game at 45:47

https://youtu.be/7x7M3lYTMtQ?t=45m46s

Wonder if he already had Williams on the radar, or if he was mostly just there for Ayton?

As for Williams, he looks like a predator on defense, I like it a lot. Intense, intelligent, observant, strong, athletic.

Offensively he's gonna love catching lobs with competent passers, sad how often his teammates miss him here.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Fan from VT on June 22, 2018, 09:02:30 AM
Mike Schmitz echoed this by calling him the best lob catcher in the draft, yet he was only used on 9 rim runs all season.

How can that even be?   I know the paint gets packed more in college, but that's wild.

Yeah, it was actually an astonishing stat. He said it on air, but also tweeted about it too.

@Mike_Schmitz
Robert Williams -- the draft's best lob-catcher -- was used as a roller only 17 times last season. Playing exclusively PF, he rolled to the rim on only 9 possessions in 30 games. Should he land with a strong organization, Williams could pop in the NBA.

That is really interesting. seems to be a recurring theme in college basketball. I'm not a big college ball guy, any theories on how this happens?

I can think of a couple, maybe a combination of all these:
1. Recruiting might be a crapshoot, trying to get the best talent, sometimes probably washes out as not the best fit all together.
2. Age and potential of the prospect vs the coach wanting to win; i.e. a "better" freshman/sophomore might be blocked by a senior even though the senior might go undrafted.
3. The coaches are worse; if they were better, they'd be in the NBA
4. The coaches are auditioning for NBA jobs, so trying to show their "system"
5. A combination of #3+4 might lead to stubborn insistence on system over maximizing talent
6. Short careers; 1-2 years and out, not as much emphasis on grooming and developing a player.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: footey on June 22, 2018, 09:24:16 AM
Mike Schmitz echoed this by calling him the best lob catcher in the draft, yet he was only used on 9 rim runs all season.

How can that even be?   I know the paint gets packed more in college, but that's wild.

Yeah, it was actually an astonishing stat. He said it on air, but also tweeted about it too.

@Mike_Schmitz
Robert Williams -- the draft's best lob-catcher -- was used as a roller only 17 times last season. Playing exclusively PF, he rolled to the rim on only 9 possessions in 30 games. Should he land with a strong organization, Williams could pop in the NBA.

That is really interesting. seems to be a recurring theme in college basketball. I'm not a big college ball guy, any theories on how this happens?

I can think of a couple, maybe a combination of all these:
1. Recruiting might be a crapshoot, trying to get the best talent, sometimes probably washes out as not the best fit all together.
2. Age and potential of the prospect vs the coach wanting to win; i.e. a "better" freshman/sophomore might be blocked by a senior even though the senior might go undrafted.
3. The coaches are worse; if they were better, they'd be in the NBA
4. The coaches are auditioning for NBA jobs, so trying to show their "system"
5. A combination of #3+4 might lead to stubborn insistence on system over maximizing talent
6. Short careers; 1-2 years and out, not as much emphasis on grooming and developing a player.
7. 99% of their job is to recruit.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on June 22, 2018, 09:38:08 AM
Mike Schmitz echoed this by calling him the best lob catcher in the draft, yet he was only used on 9 rim runs all season.

How can that even be?   I know the paint gets packed more in college, but that's wild.

Yeah, it was actually an astonishing stat. He said it on air, but also tweeted about it too.

@Mike_Schmitz
Robert Williams -- the draft's best lob-catcher -- was used as a roller only 17 times last season. Playing exclusively PF, he rolled to the rim on only 9 possessions in 30 games. Should he land with a strong organization, Williams could pop in the NBA.

That is really interesting. seems to be a recurring theme in college basketball. I'm not a big college ball guy, any theories on how this happens?

I can think of a couple, maybe a combination of all these:
1. Recruiting might be a crapshoot, trying to get the best talent, sometimes probably washes out as not the best fit all together.
2. Age and potential of the prospect vs the coach wanting to win; i.e. a "better" freshman/sophomore might be blocked by a senior even though the senior might go undrafted.
3. The coaches are worse; if they were better, they'd be in the NBA
4. The coaches are auditioning for NBA jobs, so trying to show their "system"
5. A combination of #3+4 might lead to stubborn insistence on system over maximizing talent
6. Short careers; 1-2 years and out, not as much emphasis on grooming and developing a player.
7. 99% of their job is to recruit.

Doc would have made a great college recruiter coach for hat one reason ......those kids would have ate him up as well as the parents .   
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: hwangjini_1 on June 22, 2018, 10:55:59 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x7M3lYTMtQ

I'm not sure how many will watch the whole game, but it's interesting since both their respective teams played them at the 4, so they were actually going head-to-head.

Anything in particular that stands out?  You're absolutely right, I won't be watching the entire game, haha.
Really a good game.  Neither Ayton nor Williams stood out to me. But listening to Walton and the other announcer argue and snipe at one another was painful.  :P
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Chief Macho on June 22, 2018, 01:11:40 PM
The year before he played Zona and he was a beast.  I remember thinking how dope he would be in the NBA but thought we'd never get a chance at him.  I think he'll be a much better NBA player.

At the time I got a Theo Ratliff vibe from him,  if any of you guys remember Ratliff.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: JHTruth on June 22, 2018, 01:56:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x7M3lYTMtQ

I'm not sure how many will watch the whole game, but it's interesting since both their respective teams played them at the 4, so they were actually going head-to-head.

Anything in particular that stands out?  You're absolutely right, I won't be watching the entire game, haha.
Really a good game.  Neither Ayton nor Williams stood out to me. But listening to Walton and the other announcer argue and snipe at one another was painful.  :P

Ayton went for 13 and 10. It wasn't a huge game for either, basically nullifying each other..
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on June 22, 2018, 04:26:55 PM
My summary.

First half:
- He had a faceup jay from 18 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He denied the post entry pass to Ayton twice, both times forcing a turnover.
- He stripped Ayton on a post move once, forcing a turnover.
- He had a nice high low post entry pass to his frontcourt teammate for an easy score.
- He switched out to a guard, was initially beat, and then recovered for a pretty amazing block.
- He got physical with Ayton multiple times to force Ayton off his spot and deny the post entry pass. Ayton's low point total was at least partially because of Williams defense.
- He ended the first half on a pretty awesome play when his offensive player was trying to pick him as his teammate tried to drive. Williams was able to detach himself from the pick and block the driver's shot. He kept the block in bounds, which in my mind always counts a turnover (even if it doesn't with normal stats).
- He was open multiple times for lob dunks when his front court partner received the post entry pass, but his front court partner made the read too slow and the help defense recovered.
- He set pretty lazy screens, but the players he set screens for did not even try to use him correctly. This partially seemed like the result of a mechanical and ineffective set they were running.
- He stayed active most of the time. His energy was there on both sides of the ball. That doesn't mean he was effective, but I didn't see a lazy player. My read was that he wasn't in the the right spots, but this is the only full game I've watched of their team and coaching.

Second half
- He had a pick and short pop jay from 15 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He hedged on defense on a screen one play, and when the wing dropped down onto Ayton, he reacted really quickly to fade out to the wing's man on the sideline. The wing left Ayton, which almost resulted in an easy alley-oop. What I liked was how quickly and instinctually Williams went from hedging to getting back to Ayton on the roll, to fading out to the wing. Whether that play would have been the wing's fault or William's fault on the miscommunication, I don't know.
- Ayton got the ball in the post and made a nice up and under on Williams. Would have liked to seen more fight to force him into a tougher shot.
- Williams turned it over on a post entry pass to his frontcourt mate. It was a low pass, but I think the frontcourt mate should have caught it.
- More meh screens. I don't think coaching or his guards helped him with this. One good thing was that it did appear like Williams was trying to make contact with the defender on the screens, even if his teammate wasn't rubbing shoulders.
- Williams got backscreened that opened Ayton to receive the post pass, make a move, and pass it off to his front court mate for an easy score. This looks like a miscommunication from his teammates -- not Williams fault. He did try to recover.
- He had a tough catch as he was moving backward toward the rim, with a quick turn and layup. It was an awkward offensive play, but it showed his agility and hands.
- Inconsistent box outs. He did some, especially when Ayton was in the game, but other times he didn't find a body when the ball went up.
- Impressive box out and ball-tracking against Arizona's other frontcourt player.
- He failed to deny the ball on Arizona's other frontcourt player. The player used a dropstep with a strong chicken wing to knock Williams back. He went up for the hook and a foul was called on Williams' teammate (Williams had a clean block even though he was knocked back).
- He made a tough high-low post entry pass from the free throw line that resulted in a foul.
- He had a nice early seal in the paint that resulted in a made right-handed hook shot.
- HE got a good loose-ball rebound using his length and jumping over the other Arizona front court player.
- He twice had an opposing driver dead to rights, ready to block their shots, but they were bailed out by cheap, lazy fouls by Williams teammates.
- Pretty helpside block on Trier that stayed in bounds and Texas AM got the ball back.
- He had one possession with two offensive rebounds, but an off-balance attempted put-back that missed. He kicked out the second one.
- Later on in the half he pushed the other Arizona front court player off the block well multiple possessions.
- He tipped away a post entry pass into Ayton as a helpside defender. He tried to collect it and start the fast break, but was out of bounds. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.
- Arizona went on their last push when Williams went out of the game immediately after the previous play.
- Good activity onball defense on an inbounds pass that forced an Arizona timeout. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.

Overall Impressions
- He played to his competition. He took it as a personal challenge against Ayton, but was not as engaged against the other Arizona frontcourt player.
- He played better the longer he was in the game both halfs. This could be a rhythm thing.
- I counted 5 times total where Williams was trying to load up for an alley-oop, but his teammates couldn't/wouldn't make the pass.
- Overall, I was impressed with his energy and competitiveness.
- He was the best athlete on the floor.
- Overall, I was frustrated with the Texas AM offensive system. It lacked rhythm, good looks, or complexity.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Monkhouse on June 22, 2018, 04:33:22 PM
My summary.

First half:
- He had a faceup jay from 18 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He denied the post entry pass to Ayton twice, both times forcing a turnover.
- He stripped Ayton on a post move once, forcing a turnover.
- He had a nice high low post entry pass to his frontcourt teammate for an easy score.
- He switched out to a guard, was initially beat, and then recovered for a pretty amazing block.
- He got physical with Ayton multiple times to force Ayton off his spot and deny the post entry pass. Ayton's low point total was at least partially because of Williams defense.
- He ended the first half on a pretty awesome play when his offensive player was trying to pick him as his teammate tried to drive. Williams was able to detach himself from the pick and block the driver's shot. He kept the block in bounds, which in my mind always counts a turnover (even if it doesn't with normal stats).
- He was open multiple times for lob dunks when his front court partner received the post entry pass, but his front court partner made the read too slow and the help defense recovered.
- He set pretty lazy screens, but the players he set screens for did not even try to use him correctly. This partially seemed like the result of a mechanical and ineffective set they were running.
- He stayed active most of the time. His energy was there on both sides of the ball. That doesn't mean he was effective, but I didn't see a lazy player. My read was that he wasn't in the the right spots, but this is the only full game I've watched of their team and coaching.

Second half
- He had a pick and short pop jay from 15 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He hedged on defense on a screen one play, and when the wing dropped down onto Ayton, he reacted really quickly to fade out to the wing's man on the sideline. The wing left Ayton, which almost resulted in an easy alley-oop. What I liked was how quickly and instinctually Williams went from hedging to getting back to Ayton on the roll, to fading out to the wing. Whether that play would have been the wing's fault or William's fault on the miscommunication, I don't know.
- Ayton got the ball in the post and made a nice up and under on Williams. Would have liked to seen more fight to force him into a tougher shot.
- Williams turned it over on a post entry pass to his frontcourt mate. It was a low pass, but I think the frontcourt mate should have caught it.
- More meh screens. I don't think coaching or his guards helped him with this. One good thing was that it did appear like Williams was trying to make contact with the defender on the screens, even if his teammate wasn't rubbing shoulders.
- Williams got backscreened that opened Ayton to receive the post pass, make a move, and pass it off to his front court mate for an easy score. This looks like a miscommunication from his teammates -- not Williams fault. He did try to recover.
- He had a tough catch as he was moving backward toward the rim, with a quick turn and layup. It was an awkward offensive play, but it showed his agility and hands.
- Inconsistent box outs. He did some, especially when Ayton was in the game, but other times he didn't find a body when the ball went up.
- Impressive box out and ball-tracking against Arizona's other frontcourt player.
- He failed to deny the ball on Arizona's other frontcourt player. The player used a dropstep with a strong chicken wing to knock Williams back. He went up for the hook and a foul was called on Williams' teammate (Williams had a clean block even though he was knocked back).
- He made a tough high-low post entry pass from the free throw line that resulted in a foul.
- He had a nice early seal in the paint that resulted in a made right-handed hook shot.
- HE got a good loose-ball rebound using his length and jumping over the other Arizona front court player.
- He twice had an opposing driver dead to rights, ready to block their shots, but they were bailed out by cheap, lazy fouls by Williams teammates.
- Pretty helpside block on Trier that stayed in bounds and Texas AM got the ball back.
- He had one possession with two offensive rebounds, but an off-balance attempted put-back that missed. He kicked out the second one.
- Later on in the half he pushed the other Arizona front court player off the block well multiple possessions.
- He tipped away a post entry pass into Ayton as a helpside defender. He tried to collect it and start the fast break, but was out of bounds. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.
- Arizona went on their last push when Williams went out of the game immediately after the previous play.
- Good activity onball defense on an inbounds pass that forced an Arizona timeout. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.

Overall Impressions
- He played to his competition. He took it as a personal challenge against Ayton, but was not as engaged against the other Arizona frontcourt player.
- He played better the longer he was in the game both halfs. This could be a rhythm thing.
- I counted 5 times total where Williams was trying to load up for an alley-oop, but his teammates couldn't/wouldn't make the pass.
- Overall, I was impressed with his energy and competitiveness.
- He was the best athlete on the floor.
- Overall, I was frustrated with the Texas AM offensive system. It lacked rhythm, good looks, or complexity.

TP for your hard work.

What are your overall impressions in terms of what he can bring to the team, and what are your expectations? I think Williams can improve his shot.

EDIT: My sentence cut off lol.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: footey on June 22, 2018, 04:51:04 PM
My summary.

First half:
- He had a faceup jay from 18 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He denied the post entry pass to Ayton twice, both times forcing a turnover.
- He stripped Ayton on a post move once, forcing a turnover.
- He had a nice high low post entry pass to his frontcourt teammate for an easy score.
- He switched out to a guard, was initially beat, and then recovered for a pretty amazing block.
- He got physical with Ayton multiple times to force Ayton off his spot and deny the post entry pass. Ayton's low point total was at least partially because of Williams defense.
- He ended the first half on a pretty awesome play when his offensive player was trying to pick him as his teammate tried to drive. Williams was able to detach himself from the pick and block the driver's shot. He kept the block in bounds, which in my mind always counts a turnover (even if it doesn't with normal stats).
- He was open multiple times for lob dunks when his front court partner received the post entry pass, but his front court partner made the read too slow and the help defense recovered.
- He set pretty lazy screens, but the players he set screens for did not even try to use him correctly. This partially seemed like the result of a mechanical and ineffective set they were running.
- He stayed active most of the time. His energy was there on both sides of the ball. That doesn't mean he was effective, but I didn't see a lazy player. My read was that he wasn't in the the right spots, but this is the only full game I've watched of their team and coaching.

Second half
- He had a pick and short pop jay from 15 that missed, but the form looked alright.
- He hedged on defense on a screen one play, and when the wing dropped down onto Ayton, he reacted really quickly to fade out to the wing's man on the sideline. The wing left Ayton, which almost resulted in an easy alley-oop. What I liked was how quickly and instinctually Williams went from hedging to getting back to Ayton on the roll, to fading out to the wing. Whether that play would have been the wing's fault or William's fault on the miscommunication, I don't know.
- Ayton got the ball in the post and made a nice up and under on Williams. Would have liked to seen more fight to force him into a tougher shot.
- Williams turned it over on a post entry pass to his frontcourt mate. It was a low pass, but I think the frontcourt mate should have caught it.
- More meh screens. I don't think coaching or his guards helped him with this. One good thing was that it did appear like Williams was trying to make contact with the defender on the screens, even if his teammate wasn't rubbing shoulders.
- Williams got backscreened that opened Ayton to receive the post pass, make a move, and pass it off to his front court mate for an easy score. This looks like a miscommunication from his teammates -- not Williams fault. He did try to recover.
- He had a tough catch as he was moving backward toward the rim, with a quick turn and layup. It was an awkward offensive play, but it showed his agility and hands.
- Inconsistent box outs. He did some, especially when Ayton was in the game, but other times he didn't find a body when the ball went up.
- Impressive box out and ball-tracking against Arizona's other frontcourt player.
- He failed to deny the ball on Arizona's other frontcourt player. The player used a dropstep with a strong chicken wing to knock Williams back. He went up for the hook and a foul was called on Williams' teammate (Williams had a clean block even though he was knocked back).
- He made a tough high-low post entry pass from the free throw line that resulted in a foul.
- He had a nice early seal in the paint that resulted in a made right-handed hook shot.
- HE got a good loose-ball rebound using his length and jumping over the other Arizona front court player.
- He twice had an opposing driver dead to rights, ready to block their shots, but they were bailed out by cheap, lazy fouls by Williams teammates.
- Pretty helpside block on Trier that stayed in bounds and Texas AM got the ball back.
- He had one possession with two offensive rebounds, but an off-balance attempted put-back that missed. He kicked out the second one.
- Later on in the half he pushed the other Arizona front court player off the block well multiple possessions.
- He tipped away a post entry pass into Ayton as a helpside defender. He tried to collect it and start the fast break, but was out of bounds. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.
- Arizona went on their last push when Williams went out of the game immediately after the previous play.
- Good activity onball defense on an inbounds pass that forced an Arizona timeout. HE WAS HYPED UP AFTER THIS PLAY.

Overall Impressions
- He played to his competition. He took it as a personal challenge against Ayton, but was not as engaged against the other Arizona frontcourt player.
- He played better the longer he was in the game both halfs. This could be a rhythm thing.
- I counted 5 times total where Williams was trying to load up for an alley-oop, but his teammates couldn't/wouldn't make the pass.
- Overall, I was impressed with his energy and competitiveness.
- He was the best athlete on the floor.
- Overall, I was frustrated with the Texas AM offensive system. It lacked rhythm, good looks, or complexity

TP for that, DWC, well done.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Emmette Bryant on June 22, 2018, 04:56:47 PM
that analysis was above and beyond, thanks
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: chilidawg on June 22, 2018, 05:00:36 PM
that analysis was above and beyond, thanks

Agreed, fantastic job.

So the question is, what are we missing that caused GM's drafting 15-26 to pass on him.  Feels like we got a great pick.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: mmmmm on June 22, 2018, 05:12:02 PM
Ainge is in the crowd scouting the game at 45:47

https://youtu.be/7x7M3lYTMtQ?t=45m46s

Wonder if he already had Williams on the radar, or if he was mostly just there for Ayton?

As for Williams, he looks like a predator on defense, I like it a lot. Intense, intelligent, observant, strong, athletic.

Offensively he's gonna love catching lobs with competent passers, sad how often his teammates miss him here.

I believe Ainge scouts everybody.  I.E., I think he tries to have a deep book on every single player in the draft.   Because of two reasons I mentioned in a couple of front page threads:

a) He needs to be ready for any trade that might have him drafting at any point in the draft and
b) Players sometimes fall dramatically.

In the case of (b), Danny has clearly both jumped after falling players -- Sullinger, Avery Bradley, Gerald Green and maybe a couple of others that I am forgetting -- and also totally passed on falling players -- Skal Labissiere, Deyonta Davis, Perry Jones -- even when he's had spare draft picks to use on them!

So it tells me that Danny doesn't just decide to draft a Robert Williams because he fell from his ranking on public mock draft boards into reach at Danny's pick in order to be a contrarian.   He almost certainly does his due diligence on all these players and knows who he's willing to draft and who he doesn't want even at a late pick.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: chilidawg on June 22, 2018, 05:59:33 PM
Ainge is in the crowd scouting the game at 45:47

https://youtu.be/7x7M3lYTMtQ?t=45m46s

Wonder if he already had Williams on the radar, or if he was mostly just there for Ayton?

As for Williams, he looks like a predator on defense, I like it a lot. Intense, intelligent, observant, strong, athletic.

Offensively he's gonna love catching lobs with competent passers, sad how often his teammates miss him here.

I believe Ainge scouts everybody.  I.E., I think he tries to have a deep book on every single player in the draft.   Because of two reasons I mentioned in a couple of front page threads:

a) He needs to be ready for any trade that might have him drafting at any point in the draft and
b) Players sometimes fall dramatically.

In the case of (b), Danny has clearly both jumped after falling players -- Sullinger, Avery Bradley, Gerald Green and maybe a couple of others that I am forgetting -- and also totally passed on falling players -- Skal Labissiere, Deyonta Davis, Perry Jones -- even when he's had spare draft picks to use on them!

So it tells me that Danny doesn't just decide to draft a Robert Williams because he fell from his ranking on public mock draft boards into reach at Danny's pick in order to be a contrarian.   He almost certainly does his due diligence on all these players and knows who he's willing to draft and who he doesn't want even at a late pick.

I'm pretty sure Danny is good at making up his own mind, and pays little attention to mock drafts.  And I'm very glad of that.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on June 22, 2018, 06:25:20 PM
Celtics gotta raise this young man .   He has the physical tools .

They have to put their stamp on the completion of his maturity .

Work ethic will be his mountain to climb .
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Beat LA on June 22, 2018, 06:33:13 PM
Celtics gotta raise this young man .   He has the physical tools .

They have to put their stamp on the completion of his maturity .

Work ethic will be his mountain to climb .

Is it fair to say, then, that he's off to a rather...rocky start ;) ::) ;D *groan*?
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: TheSundanceKid on June 22, 2018, 06:55:20 PM
That’s the best case for optimism on Williams that I’ve read. Thanks for posting.

I’m still wondering, though. The teams that passed on him 1-26 probably have ESPN insider accounts. They knew this. So why did they pass on him? We’ve heard vague things about motor and off court problems. I have also read there were concerns about his knees (look at nbadraft.net’s pick evaluations for that).

Maybe the other teams all blew it. There’s a pretty solid record on picks at 27 over the past 10 years. Be pretty cool if the kid could put it together wearing green.


Sometimes when a mid tier guy starts dropping, teams have already fallen in love with their guy and its that bit more difficult to go for him. I think that definitely happened with a few of the picks along the way
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on June 22, 2018, 07:38:17 PM
Footey and Monkhouse ...

My thoughts on him were mostly positive. He was the most athletic player on the court -- he was an explosive leaper, he had really quick feet, and he is much stronger than you first think (he bodied up Ayton several times). He wreaked havoc defensively. He made Ayton look passive. He was much more competitive and active than Ayton. He didn't dominate the entire game, but there were definite 2-3 minute stretches where he made offensive and defensive plays back-to-back-to-back-to-back. In those stretches, it felt like he was dominating. If that could be leveraged over a full game, there is extremely high level defensive potential in him.

I also have higher hopes for his ability in a good system, because the Texas AM system looked awful. It honestly looked like their coach had no idea how to use a player like Williams. Williams didn't help his case (he lacked assertiveness at times), but part of the coach's job is to put his players in a position to succeed.

If he accepts the challenge of the Celtic culture, of being picked later than expected, and of the higher level of competition, I think he'll do well. The fact that he clearly accepted the challenge of playing against the top player in this draft -- that bodes well for his future competitiveness.

His role is exactly what you would think. I think he could be a really high level defensive player and a rim runner. I have high hopes for his passing in high-lows and handoffs.

Past that, I've seen enough of his athleticism and shooting form to be open to the possibility that he could develop as an offensive player -- BUT I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH. He doesn't look as raw as a dribbler or shooter as Capella or Jordan at the same age, but its not like he is really far along. I think this could play out where, in the Celtics culture, he figures out how to be a comparable player to Jaren Jackson or Serge Ibaka. There is a possibility that he didn't develop because the Texas AM coached didn't know how to develop him and he didn't have a defined role that fit his offensive abilities.

We know that defense gets you on the court in CBS system. I already expected Horford as he ages to get less minutes. With Theis, Morris, and Yabu coming back, and the propensity of CBS to play small with Tatum, Brown, Hayward, and/or Smart at the 4, there aren't a lot of minutes. If they resign Baynes (a must for an impending Sixer matchup in the playoffs), there are even less minutes.

I expect him to get the first-year Rozier/Yabu treatment.

I could easily see Williams being the starter next to Horford in 2019-2020 (if he develops). Theis and Morris will likely be gone. Baynes will be older and may be gone.

In other words, 2018-2019 is a great opportunity for him to learn and develop under the best coach, in the best culture, with the best assistant coaches, and next to the smartest big men in the league.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on June 22, 2018, 07:53:32 PM
Footey and Monkhouse ...

My thoughts on him were mostly positive. He was the most athletic player on the court -- he was an explosive leaper, he had really quick feet, and he is much stronger than you first think (he bodied up Ayton several times). He wreaked havoc defensively. He made Ayton look passive. He was much more competitive and active than Ayton. He didn't dominate the entire game, but there were definite 2-3 minute stretches where he made offensive and defensive plays back-to-back-to-back-to-back. In those stretches, it felt like he was dominating. If that could be leveraged over a full game, there is extremely high level defensive potential in him.

I also have higher hopes for his ability in a good system, because the Texas AM system looked awful. It honestly looked like their coach had no idea how to use a player like Williams. Williams didn't help his case (he lacked assertiveness at times), but part of the coach's job is to put his players in a position to succeed.

If he accepts the challenge of the Celtic culture, of being picked later than expected, and of the higher level of competition, I think he'll do well. The fact that he clearly accepted the challenge of playing against the top player in this draft -- that bodes well for his future competitiveness.

His role is exactly what you would think. I think he could be a really high level defensive player and a rim runner. I have high hopes for his passing in high-lows and handoffs.

Past that, I've seen enough of his athleticism and shooting form to be open to the possibility that he could develop as an offensive player -- BUT I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH. He doesn't look as raw as a dribbler or shooter as Capella or Jordan at the same age, but its not like he is really far along. I think this could play out where, in the Celtics culture, he figures out how to be a comparable player to Jaren Jackson or Serge Ibaka. There is a possibility that he didn't develop because the Texas AM coached didn't know how to develop him and he didn't have a defined role that fit his offensive abilities.

We know that defense gets you on the court in CBS system. I already expected Horford as he ages to get less minutes. With Theis, Morris, and Yabu coming back, and the propensity of CBS to play small with Tatum, Brown, Hayward, and/or Smart at the 4, there aren't a lot of minutes. If they resign Baynes (a must for an impending Sixer matchup in the playoffs), there are even less minutes.

I expect him to get the first-year Rozier/Yabu treatment.

I could easily see Williams being the starter next to Horford in 2019-2020 (if he develops). Theis and Morris will likely be gone. Baynes will be older and may be gone.

In other words, 2018-2019 is a great opportunity for him to learn and develop under the best coach, in the best culture, with the best assistant coaches, and next to the smartest big men in the league.

The only way he starts in a couple seasons is if something went wrong or horford agrees to come off the bench. Baynes won't be in his way as a starter it's horford, JB, kyrie, Hayward and Tatum. People keep forgetting that baynes started because of injuries. So, in a couple years if he is starting then that means we let a starter go or horford went to the bench. I can't see a scenario where he starts next to horford if Tatum and Brown continue their trajectory (if we don't make a trade, even then, that means we traded for someone good who will be a starter too).


I honestly think, if he is as good as he could be then Al will go to the bench or be let go/traded because this kid fits the timeline of the other guys. In two seasons horford will be 35 or 36, I think, he should be more willing at that age but who knows.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on June 22, 2018, 07:59:36 PM
Footey and Monkhouse ...

My thoughts on him were mostly positive. He was the most athletic player on the court -- he was an explosive leaper, he had really quick feet, and he is much stronger than you first think (he bodied up Ayton several times). He wreaked havoc defensively. He made Ayton look passive. He was much more competitive and active than Ayton. He didn't dominate the entire game, but there were definite 2-3 minute stretches where he made offensive and defensive plays back-to-back-to-back-to-back. In those stretches, it felt like he was dominating. If that could be leveraged over a full game, there is extremely high level defensive potential in him.

I also have higher hopes for his ability in a good system, because the Texas AM system looked awful. It honestly looked like their coach had no idea how to use a player like Williams. Williams didn't help his case (he lacked assertiveness at times), but part of the coach's job is to put his players in a position to succeed.

If he accepts the challenge of the Celtic culture, of being picked later than expected, and of the higher level of competition, I think he'll do well. The fact that he clearly accepted the challenge of playing against the top player in this draft -- that bodes well for his future competitiveness.

His role is exactly what you would think. I think he could be a really high level defensive player and a rim runner. I have high hopes for his passing in high-lows and handoffs.

Past that, I've seen enough of his athleticism and shooting form to be open to the possibility that he could develop as an offensive player -- BUT I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH. He doesn't look as raw as a dribbler or shooter as Capella or Jordan at the same age, but its not like he is really far along. I think this could play out where, in the Celtics culture, he figures out how to be a comparable player to Jaren Jackson or Serge Ibaka. There is a possibility that he didn't develop because the Texas AM coached didn't know how to develop him and he didn't have a defined role that fit his offensive abilities.

We know that defense gets you on the court in CBS system. I already expected Horford as he ages to get less minutes. With Theis, Morris, and Yabu coming back, and the propensity of CBS to play small with Tatum, Brown, Hayward, and/or Smart at the 4, there aren't a lot of minutes. If they resign Baynes (a must for an impending Sixer matchup in the playoffs), there are even less minutes.

I expect him to get the first-year Rozier/Yabu treatment.

I could easily see Williams being the starter next to Horford in 2019-2020 (if he develops). Theis and Morris will likely be gone. Baynes will be older and may be gone.

In other words, 2018-2019 is a great opportunity for him to learn and develop under the best coach, in the best culture, with the best assistant coaches, and next to the smartest big men in the league.

The only way he starts in a couple seasons is if something went wrong or horford agrees to come off the bench. Baynes won't be in his way as a starter it's horford, JB, kyrie, Hayward and Tatum. People keep forgetting that baynes started because of injuries. So, in a couple years if he is starting then that means we let a starter go or horford went to the bench. I can't see a scenario where he starts next to horford if Tatum and Brown continue their trajectory (if we don't make a trade, even then, that means we traded for someone good who will be a starter too).

We're arguing semantics. I think Baynes would have started with certain matchups, but my point is that Williams could take that 20-25 minute a game role that Baynes had this year. It could also be more minutes as Horford ages.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: tazzmaniac on June 22, 2018, 08:25:01 PM
- Overall, I was frustrated with the Texas AM offensive system. It lacked rhythm, good looks, or complexity.
Having watched 25 or so Texas A&M games over the past two seasons, I whole heartedly agree with this comment.  You'd have to work hard to put Williams in a worse situation from an offensive perspective. 
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Monkhouse on June 22, 2018, 08:32:23 PM
Footey and Monkhouse ...

My thoughts on him were mostly positive. He was the most athletic player on the court -- he was an explosive leaper, he had really quick feet, and he is much stronger than you first think (he bodied up Ayton several times). He wreaked havoc defensively. He made Ayton look passive. He was much more competitive and active than Ayton. He didn't dominate the entire game, but there were definite 2-3 minute stretches where he made offensive and defensive plays back-to-back-to-back-to-back. In those stretches, it felt like he was dominating. If that could be leveraged over a full game, there is extremely high level defensive potential in him.

I also have higher hopes for his ability in a good system, because the Texas AM system looked awful. It honestly looked like their coach had no idea how to use a player like Williams. Williams didn't help his case (he lacked assertiveness at times), but part of the coach's job is to put his players in a position to succeed.

If he accepts the challenge of the Celtic culture, of being picked later than expected, and of the higher level of competition, I think he'll do well. The fact that he clearly accepted the challenge of playing against the top player in this draft -- that bodes well for his future competitiveness.

His role is exactly what you would think. I think he could be a really high level defensive player and a rim runner. I have high hopes for his passing in high-lows and handoffs.

Past that, I've seen enough of his athleticism and shooting form to be open to the possibility that he could develop as an offensive player -- BUT I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH. He doesn't look as raw as a dribbler or shooter as Capella or Jordan at the same age, but its not like he is really far along. I think this could play out where, in the Celtics culture, he figures out how to be a comparable player to Jaren Jackson or Serge Ibaka. There is a possibility that he didn't develop because the Texas AM coached didn't know how to develop him and he didn't have a defined role that fit his offensive abilities.

We know that defense gets you on the court in CBS system. I already expected Horford as he ages to get less minutes. With Theis, Morris, and Yabu coming back, and the propensity of CBS to play small with Tatum, Brown, Hayward, and/or Smart at the 4, there aren't a lot of minutes. If they resign Baynes (a must for an impending Sixer matchup in the playoffs), there are even less minutes.

I expect him to get the first-year Rozier/Yabu treatment.

I could easily see Williams being the starter next to Horford in 2019-2020 (if he develops). Theis and Morris will likely be gone. Baynes will be older and may be gone.

In other words, 2018-2019 is a great opportunity for him to learn and develop under the best coach, in the best culture, with the best assistant coaches, and next to the smartest big men in the league.

This is 100% exactly what I was thinking.

I wasn't sold on Williams. In fact, I disliked the pick greatly at first. I didn't think his game was going to translate anything more than a shot blocking big that can occasionally give Horford the needed 5-10 minute break. Ergo, essentially Theis. Which felt irrelevant, because I believed Tatum/Hayward could slot at the 4 occasionally to go super small ball.

But my skepticism led me to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I started researching him more in depth. I'm not going to lie. The results in terms of his character, his issues with being suspended, and not showing up to NBA Draft, combine, or being behind academically eerily reminded me of another player in Mitchell Robinson, who also had similar body/character negatives. It made me question myself, 'what the heck is wrong with this kid?'

Researching him more in detail, it's amazing that he still managed to put up numbers like he did at A&M. While he didn't blow out his freshman stats, they were pretty respectable in how he was not only playing out of position, but played in an offense that did not benefit bigs at all. As we both have said previously, his coach doesn't know how to use him. With the departure of their point guard, it also tended to give Williams the doubt that he was ever going to be used correctly. His motor seemed to fluctuate, while there were times where he was engaged in the highlights and few A&M games I've watched. He seemed to wilt when he isn't being used on offense. But he seems to be very active and hype once he delivers a powerful dunk, or block.The Fab Melo comparisons irk me greatly. I have no doubt that his handles will improve. He clearly needs a lot of work, and will need to learn how to stay engaged consistently to even prove himself ready to stay on the court.

I do agree with your assumption. I see him ending up in Maine for about 4-5 months like Yabusele. I think if everything pans out well, he'll be seeing solid 15-20 minutes by 2018-2019.

I also think Yabusele and Williams will develop some great chemistry playing together. Williams does have that ability to make the smart pass, and will excel in a give go where he sets a quick screen and roll out for the lob. He needs to learn how to not only create mismatches, but he needs to learn how to pass it out of the post quicker.

The one thing that surprised me the most is how long his arms are. We were gushing about Bamba's, and clearly his extra few inches provide him the necessary recovery when getting beat. But Williams came at half the fraction of price, and seems like he is embracing the culture, and saying the right things. He also seems like a rugged guy from his interview and his environment. Sort of like an enforcer, also the guy just looks like someone you don't want to mess with. Which is exactly what we need, to slot alongside Smart. His mid range jumper looks okay, and definitely could improve well enough to stretch past 18-20 feet.

We didn't do a work out with him, but as Stevens/Ainge have stated numerous times. The workout is simply a 'formality.' They know what he brings to the table, and his strengths/weaknesses. I do hope he figures out how to fix his FT%, and improve his shooting/passing/ball handling.

Ultimately, it is on him to prove that he can flourish and rise above the doubters and negative trademark association that he has undoubtedly brought. As many others have said, this is the 27th pick that became a steal. Expectations shouldn't be too high, but if Ainge is completely confident in his pick and choice, then I will without a doubt have 100% complete faith in him that he did enough due diligence to prove my doubt to rest.

Anyways TP to you DefenseWinsChamps, I always find your thoughts extremely informative and well written, even if at times, I don't agree with them.

There is literally no one else better than Horford, to teach Williams how to develop his game.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on June 22, 2018, 09:04:24 PM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: tstorey_97 on June 22, 2018, 09:18:49 PM
To all, thank you or the research. I watched the game, it was awful. I watched other highlights for Williams and he really runs hot/cold. Projecting into the NBA is so difficult. Jordan Mickey was a "defensive player of the year" in his conference and got some stats, but, didn't translate.

I'm 0k with blaming the utterly strange A&M system, but, player has to figure things out for himself too.

Really gifted athlete for his size.   

Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Monkhouse on June 22, 2018, 09:33:15 PM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

Oh yeah, I loved that part. My favorite block is at 5:52, his hand gets caught in the net cause he jumped so high. Think he's gonna take a while to develop, but he's got raw talent.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on June 22, 2018, 09:42:19 PM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

Oh yeah, I loved that part. My favorite block is at 5:52, his hand gets caught in the net cause he jumped so high. Think he's gonna take a while to develop, but he's got raw talent.

Yeah. I paused that on the replay to see how high his head was compared to the rim.

It was really close.

And he just hung up there waiting for the guard to actually shoot so he could spike it down.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Beat LA on June 22, 2018, 11:08:52 PM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Eddie20 on June 22, 2018, 11:16:26 PM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: rondofan1255 on June 22, 2018, 11:41:03 PM
TPs for the excellent observations!!!  :D
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Beat LA on June 22, 2018, 11:54:19 PM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: smokeablount on June 23, 2018, 03:12:36 AM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.

But he’s demonstrated no more NBA success than Williams, and if williams came out last year he’d have gone notably higher than Patton. And we got him at #27.

Embrace it. It just makes you look crazy to be disappointed to draft Robert Williams, ESPN’s #12 player in the draft at our biggest position of need, at pick #27, especially when you were clamoring for undrafted Rawle Alkins at the same spot. I mean, this is an upgrade.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: gouki88 on June 23, 2018, 03:38:56 AM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.

But he’s demonstrated no more NBA success than Williams, and if williams came out last year he’d have gone notably higher than Patton. And we got him at #27.

Embrace it. It just makes you look crazy to be disappointed to draft Robert Williams, ESPN’s #12 player in the draft at our biggest position of need, at pick #27, especially when you were clamoring for undrafted Rawle Alkins at the same spot. I mean, this is an upgrade.
Yeah, it really makes no sense. I expect Williams to be an awesome pickup for a #27 pick
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Beat LA on June 23, 2018, 04:49:52 AM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.

But he’s demonstrated no more NBA success than Williams, and if williams came out last year he’d have gone notably higher than Patton. And we got him at #27.

Embrace it. It just makes you look crazy to be disappointed to draft Robert Williams, ESPN’s #12 player in the draft at our biggest position of need, at pick #27, especially when you were clamoring for undrafted Rawle Alkins at the same spot. I mean, this is an upgrade.

Yes, and that's because he was hurt ::), but I also disagree with your assertion that Williams would have gone higher than Patton, last year, who was taken at 16 in a loaded draft -

https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2017.html

Beyond that, I'm quite comfortable with being treated as the village idiot, around here, although it's certainly not something that I seek out, like at all, lol ;D. Listen, it's fine. If Williams pans out - great :). If he doesn't, well, it's neither my money nor my problem, lol, as I did all that I could ;D.

I just view taking players with injury/motor/work ethic concerns, among other negative attributes, to be a cardinal sin when it comes to drafting, as history tells us that such guys rarely, if ever, work out (no pun intended) :-\, although it is pretty funny to see someone who references the "legendary" ;) ::) ;D Mark Blount in their profile to be seemingly enamored with another big guy who has a questionable motor and, at least imo, concerning work habits, and dude is already off to a great start ::).

Sigh.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Eddie20 on June 23, 2018, 07:24:28 AM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.

Yeah, non-shotblocking. I'd expect you to know more about a guy you're always hyping up than you do. BTW, if Patton has such a great motor then it's cause for concern that he still can't rebound or block shots.

Patton
College   -    MPG 25.3 - RPG 6.2 - BPG 1.4
GLeague -    MPG 23.2 - RPG 5.4 - BPG 1.3

Olynyk 
College   -    MPG 26.4 - RPG 7.3 - BPG 1.1

Williams
College (yr 1) - MPG 25.8 - RPG 8.2 - BPG 2.5
College (yr 2) - MPG 25.6 - RPG 9.2 - BPG 2.6


So as you can clearly see, Patton blocks shots and rebounds at a Olynyk type level, which is ironic since you've always made fun of Olynyk for his rebounding and shotblocking inability. Yet, you love Patton. It just doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Eddie20 on June 23, 2018, 07:37:16 AM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.

But he’s demonstrated no more NBA success than Williams, and if williams came out last year he’d have gone notably higher than Patton. And we got him at #27.

Embrace it. It just makes you look crazy to be disappointed to draft Robert Williams, ESPN’s #12 player in the draft at our biggest position of need, at pick #27, especially when you were clamoring for undrafted Rawle Alkins at the same spot. I mean, this is an upgrade.

I also disagree with your assertion that Williams would have gone higher than Patton, last year, who was taken at 16 in a loaded draft -

Wrong again.

Williams was projected as the No. 10 overall pick by DraftExpress. That's important because DX nailed the first 13 picks of the draft correctly.

Also...respected draft expert Sam Vecinie had this...

Prior to his decision, Williams was ranked No. 12 in Sporting News’ NBA Draft Big Board, and his ranking was also the end of a tier of prospects for this evaluator. In the current NBA ecosystem, project big men tend to have more volatile draft stocks than their counterparts, both positively and negatively. It’s a simple matter of behavioral economics.

As NBA teams start to play smaller lineups more consistently, the demand for big men falls as the supply entering the draft stays the same. However, Williams had emerged as the top choice among these project centers such as Justin Patton, John Collins, Ivan Rabb, Bam Adebayo and Harry Giles.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: gouki88 on June 23, 2018, 07:53:59 AM
TP Eddie!
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Beat LA on June 23, 2018, 08:54:01 PM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.

Yeah, non-shotblocking. I'd expect you to know more about a guy you're always hyping up than you do. BTW, if Patton has such a great motor then it's cause for concern that he still can't rebound or block shots.

Patton
College   -    MPG 25.3 - RPG 6.2 - BPG 1.4
GLeague -    MPG 23.2 - RPG 5.4 - BPG 1.3

Olynyk 
College   -    MPG 26.4 - RPG 7.3 - BPG 1.1

Williams
College (yr 1) - MPG 25.8 - RPG 8.2 - BPG 2.5
College (yr 2) - MPG 25.6 - RPG 9.2 - BPG 2.6


So as you can clearly see, Patton blocks shots and rebounds at a Olynyk type level, which is ironic since you've always made fun of Olynyk for his rebounding and shotblocking inability. Yet, you love Patton. It just doesn't make any sense.

Motor, imo, isn't just about rebounding and blocking shots - it also pertains to a player's all-around effort, which Patton has already demonstrated, and especially defensively, in spades.

I'm going to ask this as nicely as I possibly can - have you ever seen Patton play?

I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.

But he’s demonstrated no more NBA success than Williams, and if williams came out last year he’d have gone notably higher than Patton. And we got him at #27.

Embrace it. It just makes you look crazy to be disappointed to draft Robert Williams, ESPN’s #12 player in the draft at our biggest position of need, at pick #27, especially when you were clamoring for undrafted Rawle Alkins at the same spot. I mean, this is an upgrade.

I also disagree with your assertion that Williams would have gone higher than Patton, last year, who was taken at 16 in a loaded draft -

Wrong again.

Williams was projected as the No. 10 overall pick by DraftExpress. That's important because DX nailed the first 13 picks of the draft correctly.

Also...respected draft expert Sam Vecinie had this...

Prior to his decision, Williams was ranked No. 12 in Sporting News’ NBA Draft Big Board, and his ranking was also the end of a tier of prospects for this evaluator. In the current NBA ecosystem, project big men tend to have more volatile draft stocks than their counterparts, both positively and negatively. It’s a simple matter of behavioral economics.

As NBA teams start to play smaller lineups more consistently, the demand for big men falls as the supply entering the draft stays the same. However, Williams had emerged as the top choice among these project centers such as Justin Patton, John Collins, Ivan Rabb, Bam Adebayo and Harry Giles.

Yes, because if history tells us anything, it's that teams often make their draft day decisions based on rankings and big boards compiled by sites such as DraftExpress ::). Come on, man.

Besides, I found that article, linked below, and as is your pattern, you seem to have only included the part of the piece that suits your argument, as the very next sentence after "However, Williams had emerged as the top choice among these project centers such as Justin Patton, John Collins, Ivan Rabb, Bam Adebayo and Harry Giles" reads, "Even a pessimistic projection would have had trouble seeing him fall out of the top 20." Did we not hear similar rumblings this year? ::)

Case in point, the much-maligned nbadraft.net, which nailed many picks during the most recent draft, had Williams going at 15 to the Wizards, so just because a guy is projected to be drafted in a certain spot does not always, if ever, guarantee that they will be selected at said part of the, well, draft, but whatever ::).

Still, I'll play along. Let's say that Williams had entered the draft following his freshman season - with questions surrounding his motor and work ethic, not to mention the problem(s) with his knee(s), as we saw this year, where do you think that he would have been taken, at the earliest, if not also the most likely, even without those concerns?

My best guess, as I really don't know, would have to be 10, to the Blazers, or 12 to the Pistons, perhaps, but I just don't see him being taken before Bam Bam because Kentucky, lol ::) ;D, and who knows as to what Charlotte would have done in such a hypothetical scenario, but either way, I'm probably wrong :-\.

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/news/robert-williams-nba-draft-2017-texas-am-projection-mock-lottery/fmohpmwgtll31ctm3j0zn706e
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: gouki88 on June 23, 2018, 09:09:06 PM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.

Yeah, non-shotblocking. I'd expect you to know more about a guy you're always hyping up than you do. BTW, if Patton has such a great motor then it's cause for concern that he still can't rebound or block shots.

Patton
College   -    MPG 25.3 - RPG 6.2 - BPG 1.4
GLeague -    MPG 23.2 - RPG 5.4 - BPG 1.3

Olynyk 
College   -    MPG 26.4 - RPG 7.3 - BPG 1.1

Williams
College (yr 1) - MPG 25.8 - RPG 8.2 - BPG 2.5
College (yr 2) - MPG 25.6 - RPG 9.2 - BPG 2.6


So as you can clearly see, Patton blocks shots and rebounds at a Olynyk type level, which is ironic since you've always made fun of Olynyk for his rebounding and shotblocking inability. Yet, you love Patton. It just doesn't make any sense.

Motor, imo, isn't just about rebounding and blocking shots - it also pertains to a player's all-around effort, which Patton has already demonstrated, and especially defensively, in spades.

I'm going to ask this as nicely as I possibly can - have you ever seen Patton
So... it’s subjective?

The same question can be asked of you about Williams, considering how much you’re crapping on the pick.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Beat LA on June 23, 2018, 09:50:13 PM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.

Yeah, non-shotblocking. I'd expect you to know more about a guy you're always hyping up than you do. BTW, if Patton has such a great motor then it's cause for concern that he still can't rebound or block shots.

Patton
College   -    MPG 25.3 - RPG 6.2 - BPG 1.4
GLeague -    MPG 23.2 - RPG 5.4 - BPG 1.3

Olynyk 
College   -    MPG 26.4 - RPG 7.3 - BPG 1.1

Williams
College (yr 1) - MPG 25.8 - RPG 8.2 - BPG 2.5
College (yr 2) - MPG 25.6 - RPG 9.2 - BPG 2.6


So as you can clearly see, Patton blocks shots and rebounds at a Olynyk type level, which is ironic since you've always made fun of Olynyk for his rebounding and shotblocking inability. Yet, you love Patton. It just doesn't make any sense.

Motor, imo, isn't just about rebounding and blocking shots - it also pertains to a player's all-around effort, which Patton has already demonstrated, and especially defensively, in spades.

I'm going to ask this as nicely as I possibly can - have you ever seen Patton play?
So... it’s subjective?

The same question can be asked of you about Williams, considering how much you’re crapping on the pick.

In terms of as to who you regard as being the better player? Yes, obviously.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: smokeablount on June 23, 2018, 10:00:53 PM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.

Yeah, non-shotblocking. I'd expect you to know more about a guy you're always hyping up than you do. BTW, if Patton has such a great motor then it's cause for concern that he still can't rebound or block shots.

Patton
College   -    MPG 25.3 - RPG 6.2 - BPG 1.4
GLeague -    MPG 23.2 - RPG 5.4 - BPG 1.3

Olynyk 
College   -    MPG 26.4 - RPG 7.3 - BPG 1.1

Williams
College (yr 1) - MPG 25.8 - RPG 8.2 - BPG 2.5
College (yr 2) - MPG 25.6 - RPG 9.2 - BPG 2.6


So as you can clearly see, Patton blocks shots and rebounds at a Olynyk type level, which is ironic since you've always made fun of Olynyk for his rebounding and shotblocking inability. Yet, you love Patton. It just doesn't make any sense.

Motor, imo, isn't just about rebounding and blocking shots - it also pertains to a player's all-around effort, which Patton has already demonstrated, and especially defensively, in spades.

I'm going to ask this as nicely as I possibly can - have you ever seen Patton play?
So... it’s subjective?

The same question can be asked of you about Williams, considering how much you’re crapping on the pick.

In terms of as to who you regard as being the better player? Yes, obviously.

Right, but since the guys you often trumpet tend to go undrafted or end up in the G League, you can probably guess why your dissenting opinion on an athletic freak with NBA skills isn’t well received.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: smokeablount on June 23, 2018, 10:09:51 PM
I also watched highlights. The dunks and blocks were impressive, but it's the other plays that tell you a story.

One of the highlights that stood out to me was at 3:18. The ball handling, timing, and long strides were unnatural for a big man. I was impressed with that move and wondered what he might look like in space.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwMuMY73Tgo

They make space suits that large ;) ;D?

Hey Beat LA, isn't Williams better and considered to have the higher ceiling than your allergic to rebounding non-shotblocking binkie Patton?

Non-shotblocking ::)? I don't know about the rest, but at least Patton has considerably more skill with the motor and work ethic to succeed, among other things, imo.

Yeah, non-shotblocking. I'd expect you to know more about a guy you're always hyping up than you do. BTW, if Patton has such a great motor then it's cause for concern that he still can't rebound or block shots.

Patton
College   -    MPG 25.3 - RPG 6.2 - BPG 1.4
GLeague -    MPG 23.2 - RPG 5.4 - BPG 1.3

Olynyk 
College   -    MPG 26.4 - RPG 7.3 - BPG 1.1

Williams
College (yr 1) - MPG 25.8 - RPG 8.2 - BPG 2.5
College (yr 2) - MPG 25.6 - RPG 9.2 - BPG 2.6


So as you can clearly see, Patton blocks shots and rebounds at a Olynyk type level, which is ironic since you've always made fun of Olynyk for his rebounding and shotblocking inability. Yet, you love Patton. It just doesn't make any sense.

Motor, imo, isn't just about rebounding and blocking shots - it also pertains to a player's all-around effort, which Patton has already demonstrated, and especially defensively, in spades.

I'm going to ask this as nicely as I possibly can - have you ever seen Patton play?
So... it’s subjective?

The same question can be asked of you about Williams, considering how much you’re crapping on the pick.

In terms of as to who you regard as being the better player? Yes, obviously.

To be clear, I think you’re a smart poster and you add to the board, and I also think you’re right to be wary of prospects with motor concerns.

But if a kid can put up 12-8-1.4 and 2.7 blocks as a freshman in a bad system, he either doesn’t have real motor concerns, or you grab him and don’t look back because if you can fix his ‘motor’ then there’s a good chance you’ll have drafted an all star at #27.
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Eddie20 on June 23, 2018, 10:27:31 PM
Givony-
Quote
The biggest question NBA teams have about Patton revolves around his toughness, awareness and fundamentals as a rebounder and defender -

So he lacks toughness too according to Givony. 
Title: Re: Williams vs Ayton (full game)
Post by: Beat LA on June 24, 2018, 01:05:12 AM
Right, but since the guys you often trumpet tend to go undrafted or end up in the G League, you can probably guess why your dissenting opinion on an athletic freak with NBA skills isn’t well received.

I don't agree with this at all, primarily because it always depends on the location of our draft pick(s). Yes, I was wrong about Jaylen Brown, and have no problem admitting it, btw, but if you go back and look at the guys who I liked in terms of our other first rounders, etc., that year, they've actually become pretty good players, while the vast majority of the rest of the undrafted dudes have at least gotten a chance to play in the NBA, although, again, that's probably nothing more than sheer dumb luck on my part, lol ;D :-\.

Whatever. I've always been the one guy out of one hundred people, for example, who looks at things in a completely different fashion than everyone else, so this is nothing new, to me, lol ;D. Actually, it's really annoying, to be honest ;D, as it's certainly not my intention, nor am I any kind of contrarian, but it's fine. Don't worry about it.

Unrelated: I've been meaning to ask you, btw - who or what is "Sexyscottish"? Is this some kind of Outlander reference, lol ;D?

To be clear, I think you’re a smart poster and you add to the board, and I also think you’re right to be wary of prospects with motor concerns.

But if a kid can put up 12-8-1.4 and 2.7 blocks as a freshman in a bad system, he either doesn’t have real motor concerns, or you grab him and don’t look back because if you can fix his ‘motor’ then there’s a good chance you’ll have drafted an all star at #27.

Hey thanks :). I like you, too, haha ;D, and I understand as to what you're saying, but I can only go off of the information that is available to the average bear ;) ;D, and as a result I just don't believe that you can teach someone how to work and/or improve their motor.

To me, those are simply inherent traits, and expecting the coaching staff, etc., to be be able to fix it just isn't a realistic, well, expectation, imo. Look at James Young, for example. Here's a guy who, admittedly, at the time of the pick I actually wanted, although as soon as he was drafted I had a terrible feeling that we had made a huge mistake and that Rodney Hood would come back to haunt us, and, like Gerald Green, before him, not to mention Williams, now, was supposed to be a lottery pick but for some reason had slipped on draft day; and why was that? Well, and as I subsequently learned, Young had not only gotten into a car accident prior to the draft ::), but had also been flagged for having a poor work ethic by Kentucky fans, and remember, this was a guy who was taken in the very same draft as Smart and was around the latter throughout summer leagues and good chunks of the years in which they were teammates, and yet none of Smart's fire and/or "being in his ear" ever resulted in Young working harder or even giving more effort while he was on the court, so if Smart is still on the team, next year, why should I realistically expect the result to be any different for Williams?

Now, does all of that mean that I am rooting for this guy to fail? Of course not. I want to see him succeed and become, at the very least, a solid contributor for years to, well, come, but what frustrates me is that Ainge keeps making the same mistakes in regards to draft picks, and I just don't have time for someone who isn't going to work hard. Period.

Actually, I probably shouldn't care, at all, since it's certainly not my money nor my job to worry about such matters, but I do because fandom, lol ;D.

Givony-
Quote
The biggest question NBA teams have about Patton revolves around his toughness, awareness and fundamentals as a rebounder and defender -

So he lacks toughness too according to Givony.

Physically, yes, hence the reason for Patton having added noticeable bulk to his frame over the last year, but I disagree with Givony when it comes to fundamentals insofar as rebounding is concerned, as one of the things that I love about Patton is that unlike most big men out there, the guy actually keeps the ball high as opposed to bringing it down, for the most part.

Now, does that mean that he's a perfect player? Of course not, but he's a hard worker with a great skillset and your typical late-bloomer, with really the only similarity with Nolynyk being that both guys grew up playing as point guards. One of the principal differences between them, however, is that KO really never stopped playing like he was a 6'3" high school, well, point guard, while Patton has rapidly evolved from being a completely unknown 6'1" freshman pg to a 6'11" true center with guard skills, if that makes any sense.