CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: smokeablount on May 24, 2018, 03:45:25 PM
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We're on the brink of the finals. JT + JB are #1 and #2 on the team in playoff scoring at ages 19 and 21. Jaylen holds the playoff record for youngest Celtic to score 30, and Tatum looks like he's going to break the all-time playoff scoring record for rookies. Both could lead us in scoring in a finals game win if we can last 6 vs Houston/GS.
I know there's no real precedent for what they're doing, in terms of being the #1a and #1b options on a near-finals team at their ages, but is there any precedent in basketball history for two guys on the same team, both aged 22 and younger, accomplishing anything historic in terms of preferably both winning and statistics / having a major role, but really either suffices.
Like this is a poor example, but what about KG-Starbury in like 1997-98? They were both early 20s and got a lot of hype. They didn't win and they flamed out, but they did get some impressive numbers at their ages and more importantly, they were good enough to lead a team, along with Tom Guggliotta, at the age of 21, which is pretty unheard of.
Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were both young and on the Lakers, they might be a historic example to look at, but college players had to stay 4 years back then, so players before the late 70's are tough to compare because they were older when they played their first NBA game than JT and JB are now. How about OKC's old core of Durant, Westbrook and Harden?
Is there anything we can look to in the past, to get a read on the significance on what these guys are accomplishing? Even if the comparison isn't perfect?
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Sorry double post
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The 2010-11 Thunder made the WCF. Westbrook and Durant were both 22 (RW in year 3, KD in year 4). Harden and Ibaka were both 21 and in their 2nd year. Those were the Thunder's 4 leading scorers (both in the playoffs and in the regular season after Jeff Green was traded). The following season, the Thunder made the Finals (obviously all were a year older).
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They were older in years lived, but Bird and McHale were first and second year players respectively when the Celts won the title in ‘81.
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Remember that win streak early in the season? It wasn't a fluke. These guys are winners
All time greats are amazing from the beginning usually
The Tatum +kings pick for Fultz trade looks more lopsided by the day. It may go down in history As a top lopsided trade
My favorite thing about brown and Tatum is that when one is cold, the other one tends to have a hot hand. Sometimes they each have their own good quarter. Tatum dominates one half then Brown takes over the other half
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They were older in years lived, but Bird and McHale were first and second year players respectively when the Celts won the title in ‘81.
They were amazing. They are two of the best all time!
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Russell & Heinsohn played vital roles on the '57 title team as rookies.
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Tatum could very well be our Long-Lost Tim Duncan pick.
Brown? Definitely reminds me of a Reggie Lewis-type player. Long, rangy defender and can score.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi5BORi8Rck
If Jaylen can get FOUR of LeBron James' shots in ONE GAME then I'm done. :)
I think the Basketball Gods are smiling on us finally.
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Tatum could very well be our Long-Lost Tim Duncan pick.
Brown? Definitely reminds me of a Reggie Lewis-type player. Long, rangy defender and can score.
I think the Basketball Gods are smiling on us finally.
Yeah, it really feels like the basketball gods gave us back the modern equivalents of Len Bias and Reggie Lewis.
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Rozier is 3rd at 23 and his 3rd year too. Really amazing run of picks.
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For what it's worth, here's a list of rookies in the 3 point era who have averaged 15 points per game or more in the playoffs for a team that plays at least 14 games:
Jayson Tatum
Magic Johnson
The list of 2nd year guys in the 3 point era to do it:
Dwyane Wade
Hakeem
Duncan
A. Toney
Reggie King
Xavier McDaniel
Penny
Deron
Roy Tarpley
Jaylen Brown
James Worthy
Byron Scott
Kenyon Martin
Glen Davis (Big Baby!)
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They were a bit older, but Shaq / Penny come to mind as very young guys that led a team to the Finals.
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Holy crap I forgot how much BBD scored in 2008-2009. [dang] efficiently too for such a limited player because he didn't turn it over or take that many shots. Almost all those 16 footers they gave to him or shots in the paint I bet.
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For what it's worth, here's a list of rookies in the 3 point era who have averaged 15 points per game or more in the playoffs for a team that plays at least 14 games:
Jayson Tatum
Magic Johnson
The list of 2nd year guys in the 3 point era to do it:
Dwyane Wade
Hakeem
Duncan
A. Toney
Reggie King
Xavier McDaniel
Penny
Deron
Roy Tarpley
Jaylen Brown
James Worthy
Byron Scott
Kenyon Martin
Glen Davis (Big Baby!)
Very good company (for the most part).
I wonder how many of those guys were as young as Tatum & Brown?
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Russell & Heinsohn played vital roles on the '57 title team as rookies.
Who is going for 37 points / 23 rebounds in Game 7 of the Finals this year?
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FWIW, phenoms usually reach superstar level before the age of 23. So it's not totally crazy to see guys performing at a high level at age 20/21.
LeBron was already averaging 27 points, 7.2 assists, 7.4 rebounds, 2.2 steals with 47%/35%/75% shooting as a 20 year old 2nd year player.
Durant was already up to 25 points, 6.5 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 1.3 steals with 48%/42%/86% shooting his second year at age 20. Up to 30ppg the year after.
Anthony Davis was already up to 24.4 points, 10.2 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 2.9 blocks and 1.5 steals at age 21.
Karl Towns was up to 25.1 points, 12.3 rebounds, 2.7 assists at age 21.
Kyrie was already averaging 22.5 points, 6 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 45%/39%/86% shooting at age 20.
Kobe took a while to get going out of high school. His first two seasons weren't great, but he came in at age 18. By age 21, he was up to 22.5ppg. By age 22 he was upt o 28.5ppg.
Tim Duncan was a phenom right out of the gate as a 21 year old rookie.
Shaq was dominant as a 20 year old rookie.
On and on...
So yeah, there seems to be some misconception that you draft a budding young star they will develop slowly over the course of many years and peak at age 26/27. That's really not the case. Sure there are rare exceptions like Jimmy Butler, but generally if you're drafting a phenom like Tatum, there is probably going to be a major leap between year 1 and 2, but all of his main development should happen before the age of 23. He'll pick up stuff as he gets older, but if the guy is going to be a 28ppg player, it's going to happen rapidly in the next couple years.
So in that sense, it's not all that shocking to see two guys picked in the Top 3 performing at a high level. Having extremely high draft picks is essential. Obviously, this Celtic team is special for a number of reasons. Hard to say there is any precedence for what Boston is accomplishing when it's kind of unheard of to have a team threaten for the Finals without their two best players. But you shouldn't be too surprised if Brown and Tatum are playing at all-star levels by next season (especially Tatum who is a superior prospect with a higher ceiling).
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Russell & Heinsohn played vital roles on the '57 title team as rookies.
Who is going for 37 points / 23 rebounds in Game 7 of the Finals this year?
Yabu
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FWIW, phenoms usually reach superstar level before the age of 23. So it's not totally crazy to see guys performing at a high level at age 20/21.
LeBron was already averaging 27 points, 7.2 assists, 7.4 rebounds, 2.2 steals with 47%/35%/75% shooting as a 20 year old 2nd year player.
Durant was already up to 25 points, 6.5 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 1.3 steals with 48%/42%/86% shooting his second year at age 20. Up to 30ppg the year after.
Anthony Davis was already up to 24.4 points, 10.2 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 2.9 blocks and 1.5 steals at age 21.
Karl Towns was up to 25.1 points, 12.3 rebounds, 2.7 assists at age 21.
Kyrie was already averaging 22.5 points, 6 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 45%/39%/86% shooting at age 20.
Kobe took a while to get going out of high school. His first two seasons weren't great, but he came in at age 18. By age 21, he was up to 22.5ppg. By age 22 he was upt o 28.5ppg.
Tim Duncan was a phenom right out of the gate as a 21 year old rookie.
Shaq was dominant as a 20 year old rookie.
On and on...
So yeah, there seems to be some misconception that you draft a budding young star they will develop slowly over the course of many years and peak at age 26/27. That's really not the case. Sure there are rare exceptions like Jimmy Butler, but generally if you're drafting a phenom like Tatum, there is probably going to be a major leap between year 1 and 2, but all of his main development should happen before the age of 23. He'll pick up stuff as he gets older, but if the guy is going to be a 28ppg player, it's going to happen rapidly in the next couple years.
So in that sense, it's not all that shocking to see two guys picked in the Top 3 performing at a high level. Having extremely high draft picks is essential. Obviously, this Celtic team is special for a number of reasons. Hard to say there is any precedence for what Boston is accomplishing when it's kind of unheard of to have a team threaten for the Finals without their two best players. But you shouldn't be too surprised if Brown and Tatum are playing at all-star levels by next season (especially Tatum who is a superior prospect with a higher ceiling).
Right, but I’m talking about having at least 2 19-21 year old stars on one team, like some of the examples mentioned.
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FWIW, phenoms usually reach superstar level before the age of 23. So it's not totally crazy to see guys performing at a high level at age 20/21.
LeBron was already averaging 27 points, 7.2 assists, 7.4 rebounds, 2.2 steals with 47%/35%/75% shooting as a 20 year old 2nd year player.
Durant was already up to 25 points, 6.5 rebounds, 2.8 assists, 1.3 steals with 48%/42%/86% shooting his second year at age 20. Up to 30ppg the year after.
Anthony Davis was already up to 24.4 points, 10.2 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 2.9 blocks and 1.5 steals at age 21.
Karl Towns was up to 25.1 points, 12.3 rebounds, 2.7 assists at age 21.
Kyrie was already averaging 22.5 points, 6 assists, 3.7 rebounds, 1.5 steals with 45%/39%/86% shooting at age 20.
Kobe took a while to get going out of high school. His first two seasons weren't great, but he came in at age 18. By age 21, he was up to 22.5ppg. By age 22 he was upt o 28.5ppg.
Tim Duncan was a phenom right out of the gate as a 21 year old rookie.
Shaq was dominant as a 20 year old rookie.
On and on...
So yeah, there seems to be some misconception that you draft a budding young star they will develop slowly over the course of many years and peak at age 26/27. That's really not the case. Sure there are rare exceptions like Jimmy Butler, but generally if you're drafting a phenom like Tatum, there is probably going to be a major leap between year 1 and 2, but all of his main development should happen before the age of 23. He'll pick up stuff as he gets older, but if the guy is going to be a 28ppg player, it's going to happen rapidly in the next couple years.
So in that sense, it's not all that shocking to see two guys picked in the Top 3 performing at a high level. Having extremely high draft picks is essential. Obviously, this Celtic team is special for a number of reasons. Hard to say there is any precedence for what Boston is accomplishing when it's kind of unheard of to have a team threaten for the Finals without their two best players. But you shouldn't be too surprised if Brown and Tatum are playing at all-star levels by next season (especially Tatum who is a superior prospect with a higher ceiling).
Right, but I’m talking about having at least 2 19-21 year old stars on one team, like some of the examples mentioned.
Tatum is now 20. Just thought I would correct that
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Russell & Heinsohn played vital roles on the '57 title team as rookies.
Who is going for 37 points / 23 rebounds in Game 7 of the Finals this year?
Yabu
Release The Bear!
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One thing I've felt was a little odd is the gushing over Tatum as a future superstar, while Brown is generally discussed as "and he looks like he'll be good too".
My take is that they have extremely complementary playing styles, and that we can't tell yet who will become the better player. At minimum, they will both be regular all-stars within a year or two. They could very well become bookend all-NBA players.
Tatum is ahead by some distance in terms of technical offensive skills, but if you set aside the 5 game stretch where he was slowed by a hamstring pull, Jaylen has been equally impressive as an offensive player in the playoffs, and is improving just as fast. He seems to be making up for the skills difference with elite athleticism and aggression, and it is somehow working.
I'm sure part of it is that Tatum is a rookie and Brown is a 2nd year guy. But Brown is proving he is a very quick study too, and will probably greatly improve his footwork, and add tricks to neutralize and set up defenders over the next couple of years. Tatum already has those skills. Brown's big advantage is that he is one of the most explosive athletes in the league and has all the traits you need to take advantage.
Don't be surprised if he ends up the alpha dog on this team instead of Tatum
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Yes. Tim Duncan
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The 2010-11 Thunder made the WCF. Westbrook and Durant were both 22 (RW in year 3, KD in year 4). Harden and Ibaka were both 21 and in their 2nd year. Those were the Thunder's 4 leading scorers (both in the playoffs and in the regular season after Jeff Green was traded). The following season, the Thunder made the Finals (obviously all were a year older).
3rd and 4th year is pretty different (and probably a lot more common) than first and second year. I mean the rookie is starting and leading the team in scoring. Anything closer than this?