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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: chambers on May 22, 2018, 10:00:39 AM

Title: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: chambers on May 22, 2018, 10:00:39 AM
The beauty of this discussion is that we have an entire season next year to see which lineups work the best for us.

I think we have the luxury of seeing how Kyrie responds to the knee next year and how much Rozier gets.

But to say Kyrie is definitely not being traded is short sighted.

Personally, I'm in favor of keeping Kyrie (if he comes back and can play 70 games + playoffs/finals etc next season).

But I can see the merits of the 'trade Kyrie' argument.
-Rozier's defense is a level above Kyrie's- we are a better defensive team overall. (although when we get to the Lebron and Durant match ups, it doesn't make as much of a difference as we've seen).
-Rozier is a better rebounder.
-Tatum has become a much better scorer without Kyrie on court.
-Brown has become a much better scorer as well.
-The ball is moving more. We are averaging more passes per possession.
-Rozier will be cheaper.
-Our scoring is more balanced because we are getting more players involved on offense.

Rozier's been super reliable/clutch for most of the playoffs. Is he on a hot streak? Maybe. But he's proven he's a potential keeper and the argument is that we are a better 'team' with Rozier instead of Kyrie.

The biggest question I have regarding Kyrie is:
When he comes back, with Hayward, what happens to Tatum and Brown's offense.
Someone is going to have to give up some points on the stat sheet. Kyrie's ego signals to us that he won't be the one willing to give up his stats.
So how will that effect our younger players and Hayward?

The great news, as stated above, is that we have an entire season to find answers to these questions next year.
So for now, I'm in the keep Kyrie camp. But I am excited to see which path leads us to being the better team. Danny's doing the same.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: wdleehi on May 22, 2018, 10:05:07 AM
Irving makes the Celtics a better team.  He would have been an amazing help on the road when the Celtics offense is missing easy shots.   He would have been useful trying to get over the comeback hump.



These road games show more and more why the Celtics would be better with Irving back as the starting PG.   


Tatum and Brown are growing as players.   They need to grow more, but at no point has Irving slowed their progress.  The fact they were as prepared as they were when Irving went down to step up proves that.   

Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: PhoSita on May 22, 2018, 10:05:09 AM
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: chambers on May 22, 2018, 10:10:35 AM
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Would you keep the Lexus if it blew a gasket/engine and cost 25% of your income for the next 4 years?
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: wdleehi on May 22, 2018, 10:12:26 AM
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Would you keep the Lexus if it blew a gasket/engine and cost 25% of your income for the next 4 years?


If it still gives you the best chance to win?   Yes.

Would you be willing to pay pre-owned Lexus money to keep the Kia in a year?
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: chambers on May 22, 2018, 10:17:04 AM
Irving makes the Celtics a better team.  He would have been an amazing help on the road when the Celtics offense is missing easy shots.   He would have been useful trying to get over the comeback hump.



These road games show more and more why the Celtics would be better with Irving back as the starting PG.   


Tatum and Brown are growing as players.   They need to grow more, but at no point has Irving slowed their progress.  The fact they were as prepared as they were when Irving went down to step up proves that.

But surely we'd be getting scored on even more with Kyrie guarding the same guys Rozier is guarding?

It's not just about Kyrie hitting big shots. It's about giving our other players the opportunity to score and contribute on offense.
With Hayward coming back, there are going to be even less shots for everyone.

I'm saying that we should keep an open mind that with Rozier out there, what we lose in iso situations and tough shot making with Kyrie, we perhaps gain just as much defensively and on ball movement.

I just believe Kyrie is going to have to adjust his game a bit next season and pass more.
We've seen the offensive talent that Brown and Tatum have. Add in Hayward coming back and if Kyrie is going to keep getting 24.4 ppg then our other guys are going to suffer.
I'm hoping he can play better defense and put some numbers like 20ppg and 8 assists per game- with the same tough shots. I just hope he can do that with his ego and put the team first.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: chambers on May 22, 2018, 10:18:32 AM
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Would you keep the Lexus if it blew a gasket/engine and cost 25% of your income for the next 4 years?


If it still gives you the best chance to win?   Yes.

Would you be willing to pay pre-owned Lexus money to keep the Kia in a year?
I can't see how a Lexus with a blown gasket, taking up 25% of your income for 4 years is ever giving you the best chance to win.

Arguments aside, I think we are very lucky that we get to see how things progress next season before making a decision.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: wdleehi on May 22, 2018, 10:20:15 AM
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Would you keep the Lexus if it blew a gasket/engine and cost 25% of your income for the next 4 years?


If it still gives you the best chance to win?   Yes.

Would you be willing to pay pre-owned Lexus money to keep the Kia in a year?
I can't see how a Lexus with a blown gasket, taking up 25% of your income for 4 years is ever giving you the best chance to win.

Arguments aside, I think we are very lucky that we get to see how things progress next season before making a decision.


Because it hasn't blown a gasket.  There is no reason to believe it is going to happen. 


Better question, why trade Irving coming off the injury?
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: PaulAllen on May 22, 2018, 10:22:20 AM
If Ainge saw this post he would laugh until he soiled himself
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: gouki88 on May 22, 2018, 10:24:15 AM
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!
Rofl.

Points like "scoring becomes more balanced" aren't really positive to me, as it's simply just worse offensive talents getting more shots than they should be. I'm definitely team Lexus
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: chambers on May 22, 2018, 10:27:13 AM
If Ainge saw this post he would laugh until he soiled himself


I used to think the exact same thing. And then I witnessed Rozier, Tatum and Brown all playing at an elite level defensively, offensively, moving the ball better than we've seen all year, and getting to the Eastern Conference finals.

I'm not saying we should trade Kyrie, I'm saying we should keep an open mind as to how things transpire next season with Kyrie and Hayward coming back.

I just hope Kyrie's ego is ready to share the ball, move the ball and be willing to get more assists. Because if he scores 24.4 ppg next year, some of our other players are going to be p---ed, and it means the ball probably isn't moving as well as it should.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: chambers on May 22, 2018, 11:01:01 AM
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!
Rofl.

Points like "scoring becomes more balanced" aren't really positive to me, as it's simply just worse offensive talents getting more shots than they should be. I'm definitely team Lexus


The car analogy isn't really fair because Rozier is arguably more than a Kia in this debate.
I'm trying to create a reasonable discussion here by looking at things like the Bucks series, and tying in the possibility that Rozier gets even better as a player with another offseason under his belt.
eg Bucks series.
Rozier scored 18 points, 6.7 assists, 1.5 turnovers, 4 rebounds with a usage rate of 21%.
He also held Bledsoe to 13.6 ppg (from his usual 18 ppg) and 3.8 assist pg (from his usual 5 per game).
His help defense and rotational defense was also light years ahead of what we could have hoped for from Kyrie.
I think the usage rate is important though, because with a 10% less usage rate (than Kyrie's average of 31%), it means his team mates are getting more shots, more ball, and being rewarded for their defensive efforts more.

My point is, that if Rozier continues to get better on the offensive end, and maintains his defensive prowess, then his contribution to the team's overall success vs Kyrie's needs to be looked at.

Now if Kyrie (at only age 26), can improve his defensive impact, and move the ball more so his team mates can be more involved, then the argument becomes less viable.

Would we have seen how good Jason Tatum and Brown can be if Kyrie were playing for us this playoffs? I'm not so sure. They're going to get even less of the ball with Hayward AND Irving coming back. I'm not worried about Hayward passing and moving the ball, sacrificing stats for the good of the team. But I am slightly concerned about Kyrie.

I am being unreasonable here? I don't think so.


Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: PaulAllen on May 22, 2018, 11:03:06 AM
If Ainge saw this post he would laugh until he soiled himself


I used to think the exact same thing. And then I witnessed Rozier, Tatum and Brown all playing at an elite level defensively, offensively, moving the ball better than we've seen all year, and getting to the Eastern Conference finals.

I'm not saying we should trade Kyrie, I'm saying we should keep an open mind as to how things transpire next season with Kyrie and Hayward coming back.

I just hope Kyrie's ego is ready to share the ball, move the ball and be willing to get more assists. Because if he scores 24.4 ppg next year, some of our other players are going to be p---ed, and it means the ball probably isn't moving as well as it should.

thats like saying Houston is playing "elite" defense...c'mon man
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: KGs Knee on May 22, 2018, 11:16:57 AM
There's not really much to discuss. Rozier is simply an inferior player than Kyrie. Rozier has demonstrated that he cannot take over a game and carry the entire scoring burden when necessary.   Kyrie has proven he can, and can do it in high pressure situations like last night.

Balanced scoring is great, and I'm not dismissing the value of that. But having a guy who can carry the load by themselves is more important. It always has been, and always will be.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: slamtheking on May 22, 2018, 11:26:36 AM
There's not really much to discuss. Rozier is simply an inferior player than Kyrie. Rozier has demonstrated that he cannot take over a game and carry the entire scoring burden when necessary.   Kyrie has proven he can, and can do it in high pressure situations like last night.

Balanced scoring is great, and I'm not dismissing the value of that. But having a guy who can carry the load by themselves is more important. It always has been, and always will be.
agreed - if anything, this playoff run has shown that this team really needs a player that they can turn to generate points when everyone's shot is off.  Kyrie is that type of player. 

Kyrie has shown he's better at facilitating an offense than Rozier. 

I take Kyrie over Rozier 100 times out of 100.  Rozier is a just fine as a backup PG.  I wouldn't want him to be the full time starter at PG though.  spot starting, sure.  full time, no.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: smokeablount on May 22, 2018, 11:38:53 AM
We could have used Kyrie when we were shooting 37% during these past 2 road games. 

I like Terry a lot, he's been a stud, but unless special circumstances arise with Kyrie's health or an amazing player / asset that Kyrie could fetch us, Terry is not a real replacement for Kyrie.  What makes an all star / superstar is not being excellent, but being consistently excellent.  Kyrie is only 1 year older than Rozier, but Kyrie's nightly consistency clearly separates him from Rozier now, and probably always.  He's also championship tested.  I want him on this team.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: Monkhouse on May 22, 2018, 11:50:13 AM
Rozier has been playing lights out this year, and I'm super impressed. He's shown and put a lot of dedication into his craft, and his play this year in the playoffs definitely has given some thought about trading Kyrie, but these are my pros and cons.

Pros:
He's younger, more athletic, and would be getting paid less.
He's shown in short spurts that he can make some astounding plays on both ends.
He can shoot, and score quicker, and use his ability to jump higher to make it difficult to block his shots. He's also improved his 3 point shots.

Cons:
Is his defense really that much better than Kyrie? I have honestly been up and down with his defense. At times he seems to be able to glide effortlessly similar to like Paul George with his quick lateral ability, but then he gets blown by players that I would've never imagined would have done so.
Rozier still cannot take over the game. The Bucks game after watching all the angles and separate camera views. They foolishly didn't contest his 3 point shots, and gave him way TOO easy of looks. The Bucks were in the bottom 5 percentile for worst 3 pt % allowed.
Rozier's handling is still suspect. I don't trust him as well. He also seems to try to push the pace too quick without thinking things through at times.
He is definitely going to be a starting PG on another team, but the question is, at what cost?

_____________

My last final thoughts is that Rozier is going to garner much more look than I anticipated. Teams that need a PG, or scoring undersized SG/PG combo guard may try to take a bite at him. I will also mention if you take a look at Brown, Tatum, and Rozier, their handling has been 2x as better than originally... While you cannot just attribute that based on hard work alone, I think the effect of having a leader and clutch scorer and one of the greatest ball handlers in the history of the NBA to rely and be given positive feedback is vital in Kyrie. His handling has most definitely had positive effects on all players. Tatum is able to do shake and bake moves that I haven't seen him pull off so easily against NBA defenders in his college highlights. Rozier has also mentioned that Kyrie has been a huge influence on him.

Quote
Terry Rozier on Kyrie Irving's leadership from afar: "He’s here with us. His spirit is here. He’s still part of this team. He’s still our leader.”

Quote
“No. I haven’t changed my mind,” Rozier said with a grin after leading the Celtics to a 119-110 win over the Atlanta Hawks. “Kyrie’s probably one of my biggest supporters outside of my family through this little process. So I know he’s happy for me. And when he comes back he’s going to pick it up.”

Quote
So, with Irving's shoes on his feet, and his wisdom in his head, Rozier is introducing the world to "Scary Terry," a lightning-fast guard with elite athleticism, steady ballhandling and a fun-loving personality that has aided his rise to the national spotlight this postseason.

"Kyrie's big advice was for me to be myself. That's the most important thing, he said," Rozier said. "There was nothing that he could teach me in so little time. So he told me to be myself. He believes in me, and I believe in myself.

"Now I'm just going out there and doing what I do."

Regardless of whether or not Kyrie comes back healthy, is still up for discussion. Either way, you have to choose who would be better suited for this team.. And if Hayward is coming back, he is going to be the one who is going to be hurt with his PPG. But I think someone like Hayward, who completely buys and trusts in the system, would be okay with sharing the ball, and acquiring more assists at the cost of his PPG.

Honestly, PPG is so overrated. It's something that I have always hated when people bring up superstars... Yes Curry can score, along with Harden and KD. But they are all in great systems with fantastic ball movement.

Also Kyrie has star power... AD has also reportedly mentioned during USA team camp that him and Kyrie became very close friends.

Quote
If Anthony Davis becomes available — and the Celtics’ eyes are very much trained on him — Boston could throw together a package more compelling than just about anyone else’s.

Irving would be an indirect part of that package. The NBA’s superstar class respects his ballsy showman’s game.

Even KP thinks Kyrie would've been the best option to add to his team.

Quote
“Any time a great player in this league has you on their list, you got to be happy about it,’’ Jeff Hornacek said. “He ended up here in Boston. He’s going to really help those guys.”

Porzingis was in Latvia training for the European championships during the Irving Sweepstakes.

“I saw it on Twitter,’’ Porzingis said. “As I said, I wasn’t trying to pay too much attention to my own trade talks — even less to other guys.”

He admitted an Irving addition could have changed the landscape.

“Playing with a guy like that would make the game a lot easier,’’ Porzingis said. “That’s dreaming how it would be. He’s not here with us. He’s in Boston. That type of player would bring a lot to this team.’’

Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: PhoSita on May 22, 2018, 11:57:09 AM


The car analogy isn't really fair because Rozier is arguably more than a Kia in this debate.
I'm trying to create a reasonable discussion here by looking at things like the Bucks series, and tying in the possibility that Rozier gets even better as a player with another offseason under his belt.


I don't think that it's likely that Rozier would be able to play the way he did against Milwaukee, Philly etc over the course of a regular season let alone for multiple seasons.

Kyrie is a proven 25+ ppg guy with elite scoring efficiency and has shown he can put up 27-30 ppg in a tough playoff series.


Rozier's play this postseason has been admirable and fun to watch but I think it's folly to assume that's who he is moving forward.


Kyrie is a superstar who should be very good for years to come.  Any team with him on it will be relevant and competitive for the near future.  Let's not mess with that.


Say it with me:

Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Horford.

Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Horford.

Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Horford.


The focus of the Celts should be seeing what that group can do together. 

All the other guys are supporting players.  We can grow attached to Scary Terry, Smarf, Mook, Australia, etc, but supporting guys come and go.  The core of the team is strong and I can't wait to see them play together.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: knuckleballer on May 22, 2018, 11:57:38 AM
If we have the same team next year with a healthy Haywayd and Irving goes down with another injury, can we win a title?  I don't think so.  We barely got past Milwaukee and just got our butts kicked the last two games.  I don't think Hayward and improvement form Jayson and Jalen would put us past GS.  Maybe we'd get to the finals, but I doubt we'd win it all.  With Kyrie we'd have a chance. 

Trading Kyrie for say Bamba or Jackson still won't be enough to win it all.  So, I say move Rozier and the Sac pick if it can get one of this draft's bigs to add some depth next season and to develop for the future.  Rozier's minutes will be limited next year anyway assuming the team is healthy.  If the team is missing Irving, we're not winning it all anyway.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: CF033 on May 22, 2018, 11:57:55 AM
I really don't know how this is all going to play out but it's going to a lot of fun watching.

Can you imagine the starting lineup next year?

Irving
Brown
Tatum
Hayward
Horford

With Rozier, Smart, etc. coming off the bench?

We'll easily be the best team in the east next year assuming no major injuries, and LeBron doesn't go to Philadelphia or something crazy like that.

Brown and/or Tatum could easily grow to become the type of players that can make shots when the team is cold. One day we'll look back at this lineup and say 'wow, there were basically 5 all-stars playing together'.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: droopdog7 on May 22, 2018, 11:58:32 AM
This is not a debate people!
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: nickagneta on May 22, 2018, 12:09:42 PM
Irving makes the Celtics a better team.  He would have been an amazing help on the road when the Celtics offense is missing easy shots.   He would have been useful trying to get over the comeback hump.



These road games show more and more why the Celtics would be better with Irving back as the starting PG.   


Tatum and Brown are growing as players.   They need to grow more, but at no point has Irving slowed their progress.  The fact they were as prepared as they were when Irving went down to step up proves that.

But surely we'd be getting scored on even more with Kyrie guarding the same guys Rozier is guarding?
Apparently you haven't been watching the past few games where the Cavs have switched Rozier onto a big and scored constantly on him. Rozier's better defense is easy to get around if a coach sees that the main liability defensively is your PG who can't physically compete with bigs. Smart can but neither Rozier or Kyrie can.

That said, yes, Rozier is a better defender than Kyrie, but he can be exploited with a good game plan as much as Kyrie.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: Big333223 on May 22, 2018, 12:14:01 PM
TP to PhoSita.

The funny thing is, Rozier is only 2 years younger than Kyrie. We're all super impressed with Terry's playoff run and I'm proud of him but when Kyrie was the same age he was averaging 25 ppg in the playoffs for an NBA Champion and hitting huge shots in the Finals. These guys just aren't the on the same level.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: chambers on May 22, 2018, 12:15:20 PM
Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind. We haven't see what this team will be like with Kyrie and Hayward with our younger stars.

The plan for now is that Kyrie comes back, Hayward comes back, and with Jaylen and Tatum getting better in the off season, we reach the finals and give GSW an absolute hell of a fight and maybe even win a championship.

But we haven't ever seen Kyrie on a team with so many good players.
We aren't going to need Kyrie to score 25ppg because we'll have so many options. But can Kyrie grasp that concept? Will his ego accept that game plan?

And we probably aren't going to see Tatum and Brown scoring like this, getting this kind of experience on the offensive end, especially with Hayward and Kyrie coming back.

As I said, I'm in the 'keep Kyrie' camp. He's a killer. He's beaten GSW and outplayed Steph Curry in a 7 game series for all the marbles.

But we also never got a chance to see Tatum and Brown (and Rozier for that matter), play this good with a ball dominant score first point guard. This team next year is going to be an incredibly talented starting 5 and the ball needs to go through EVERYONE's hands, not Kyrie's 31% of the time like it has this year.

I just hope Kyrie doesn't stunt their growth on the offensive end because it's going to be even harder to get them shots with Kyrie and Hayward both back.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: wdleehi on May 22, 2018, 12:20:35 PM
Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind. We haven't see what this team will be like with Kyrie and Hayward with our younger stars.

The plan for now is that Kyrie comes back, Hayward comes back, and with Jaylen and Tatum getting better in the off season, we reach the finals and give GSW an absolute hell of a fight and maybe even win a championship.

But we haven't ever seen Kyrie on a team with so many good players.
We aren't going to need Kyrie to score 25ppg because we'll have so many options. But can Kyrie grasp that concept? Will his ego accept that game plan?

And we probably aren't going to see Tatum and Brown scoring like this, getting this kind of experience on the offensive end, especially with Hayward and Kyrie coming back.

As I said, I'm in the 'keep Kyrie' camp. He's a killer. He's beaten GSW and outplayed Steph Curry in a 7 game series for all the marbles.

But we also never got a chance to see Tatum and Brown (and Rozier for that matter), play this good with a ball dominant score first point guard. This team next year is going to be an incredibly talented starting 5 and the ball needs to go through EVERYONE's hands, not Kyrie's 31% of the time like it has this year.

I just hope Kyrie doesn't stunt their growth on the offensive end because it's going to be even harder to get them shots with Kyrie and Hayward both back.


We have seen Kyrie with this team.   And it was good.  The young players were good. 


So his addition isn't an issue.  Finding minutes for Rozier could be an issue especially if Smart comes back. 


As for Hayward, just not concern about him taking away touches in the offense.   He looks like a play in the system guy.   
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: RJ87 on May 22, 2018, 12:21:37 PM
Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind. We haven't see what this team will be like with Kyrie and Hayward with our younger stars.

The plan for now is that Kyrie comes back, Hayward comes back, and with Jaylen and Tatum getting better in the off season, we reach the finals and give GSW an absolute hell of a fight and maybe even win a championship.

But we haven't ever seen Kyrie on a team with so many good players.
We aren't going to need Kyrie to score 25ppg because we'll have so many options. But can Kyrie grasp that concept? Will his ego accept that game plan?

And we probably aren't going to see Tatum and Brown scoring like this, getting this kind of experience on the offensive end, especially with Hayward and Kyrie coming back.

As I said, I'm in the 'keep Kyrie' camp. He's a killer. He's beaten GSW and outplayed Steph Curry in a 7 game series for all the marbles.

But we also never got a chance to see Tatum and Brown (and Rozier for that matter), play this good with a ball dominant score first point guard. This team next year is going to be an incredibly talented starting 5 and the ball needs to go through EVERYONE's hands, not Kyrie's 31% of the time like it has this year.

I just hope Kyrie doesn't stunt their growth on the offensive end because it's going to be even harder to get them shots with Kyrie and Hayward both back.

I just lol'd. If Kyrie can get you 25 points on near 50-40-90 percentages, you take that and be happy.

You know what this team needs right now? A guy who can get you a bucket when you can't even convert a simple dunk on the road in the playoffs. We have that guy.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: Ilikesports17 on May 22, 2018, 12:26:22 PM
Rozier is a garbage defender. I'm not sure how much better he is when compared to irving.

Then take the fact that Irving is monumentally better than a Rozier as an offensive player and it's an easy easy easy call.

I'd ship Rozier out for something with long term team control be it a pick or youn guy.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: Jvalin on May 22, 2018, 12:29:07 PM
We cannot keep both Smart and Rozier. If Danny believes Rozier is the odd man out, now is the time to trade him. His trade value will never be higher.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: Ilikesports17 on May 22, 2018, 12:31:52 PM
If Ainge saw this post he would laugh until he soiled himself


I used to think the exact same thing. And then I witnessed Rozier, Tatum and Brown all playing at an elite level defensively, offensively, moving the ball better than we've seen all year, and getting to the Eastern Conference finals.

I'm not saying we should trade Kyrie, I'm saying we should keep an open mind as to how things transpire next season with Kyrie and Hayward coming back.

I just hope Kyrie's ego is ready to share the ball, move the ball and be willing to get more assists. Because if he scores 24.4 ppg next year, some of our other players are going to be p---ed, and it means the ball probably isn't moving as well as it should.
Rozier is so far from an elite level defensively
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: Vermont Green on May 22, 2018, 12:37:13 PM
Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: Fafnir on May 22, 2018, 12:39:40 PM
Rozier is a solid defender at PG and a elite defensive rebounder at PG for his size. But he's not someone you slot in to replace Irving and upgrade elsewhere.

The team defended at an elite level with Kyrie playing starter minutes all year, our issue is scoring.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: jambr380 on May 22, 2018, 01:02:39 PM
Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).

Isn't this the real key? If people are making the mistake of arguing that Rozier is better than Kyrie, you are going to continue getting the same smug responses that we are seeing in this thread. Very few people feel this way - it would be ridiculous to feel this way. I ask that people stop reading the 'argument' this way - it is getting annoying.

If we can trade Kyrie for Kawhi, but can only trade Rozier for the #13 pick, then you obviously choose Kawhi and Rozier (sorry, but I think Kawhi is a better player than Kyrie).
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: nickagneta on May 22, 2018, 01:09:19 PM
Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).

Isn't this the real key? If people are making the mistake of arguing that Rozier is better than Kyrie, you are going to continue getting the same smug responses that we are seeing in this thread. Very few people feel this way - it would be ridiculous to feel this way. I ask that people stop reading the 'argument' this way - it is getting annoying.

If we can trade Kyrie for Kawhi, but can only trade Rozier for the #13 pick, then you obviously choose Kawhi and Rozier (sorry, but I think Kawhi is a better player than Kyrie).
Or just keep both and Smart for next year. Then after winning the championship, you resign Rozier or sign and trade him. Then if he resigns, you decide in 2019-20 who to keep and do a deadline trade then when their higher salary will get more in return without adding a lot more salary. There's zero reason this decision can't be kicked down the road, especially if we win a chip next year and Wyc is willing to pay luxury tax.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: johnnygreen on May 22, 2018, 01:56:40 PM
These trade Kyrie threads are getting ridiculous, even with the spin the OP put on this thread. One of the things that seems to be missing is the level at which we’re judging these two players differently. For Rozier, the argument seems to be that he has proven himself to be a starter. For Kyrie, is he a top 10 player in the world, and where will he rank as an all-time PG after he retires. Rozier is a great back-up PG, and a serviceable starter. I have no doubt in my mind that the Celtics would not be 1-6 on the road in the playoffs, if Kyrie was the starter.

The Celtics have arguably a top 3 PG in the league with Kyrie. I’m sure Danny could try to get Kawhi Leonard using Kyrie as trade bait, but that literally makes no sense. Yes Kawhi is a great player, but the Celtics already have all-star caliber players at the possible two (or three) positions that he could play. I’m also definitely not trading an elite player in Kyrie, who has proven himself all year to be a team first player, for a guy in Kawhi that has put himself before his team and bailed on his teammates. I strongly believe the Celtics will be able to extend Kyrie, however, I would have very little confidence that Kawhi would sign an extension without testing free agency.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: droopdog7 on May 22, 2018, 02:06:15 PM
Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).

Isn't this the real key? If people are making the mistake of arguing that Rozier is better than Kyrie, you are going to continue getting the same smug responses that we are seeing in this thread. Very few people feel this way - it would be ridiculous to feel this way. I ask that people stop reading the 'argument' this way - it is getting annoying.

If we can trade Kyrie for Kawhi, but can only trade Rozier for the #13 pick, then you obviously choose Kawhi and Rozier (sorry, but I think Kawhi is a better player than Kyrie).
Okay, so who said you can trade Kyrie for Kawhi?  And who said you could trade Kyrie and upgrade?  Those a big assumptions.  And what about the fit of Kawhi with what we currently have on the roster?  Not just about Kyrie versus Kawhi and Rozier.

And, and this is a big one for me, if you do build a an uber talented team everywhere except PG, then Rozier may be the last PG you want with that team.  Dude's a chucker and more of a combo guard.  Give me a facilitating PG over Rozier all day long.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: KGs Knee on May 22, 2018, 02:33:26 PM
Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).

Isn't this the real key? If people are making the mistake of arguing that Rozier is better than Kyrie, you are going to continue getting the same smug responses that we are seeing in this thread. Very few people feel this way - it would be ridiculous to feel this way. I ask that people stop reading the 'argument' this way - it is getting annoying.

If we can trade Kyrie for Kawhi, but can only trade Rozier for the #13 pick, then you obviously choose Kawhi and Rozier (sorry, but I think Kawhi is a better player than Kyrie).

Acquiring Kawhi then means you'd need to trade one of Tatum, Brown, or Hayward. You can't realistically expect to keep all four of them, there's no way to play all four of them together for meaningful stretches.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: rollie mass on May 22, 2018, 02:47:38 PM
Open mind-this is a mindless idea.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: PhoSita on May 22, 2018, 03:14:50 PM
Open mind-this is a mindless idea.

I logged in just to give you a TP.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: jambr380 on May 22, 2018, 03:41:49 PM
I have no problem rolling out a team of Kawhi, Hayward, Jaylen, Jayson, and Al with solid ammunition off the bench at the guard spots. I like Kyrie a lot and there are very few players I would trade him for (like 2 or 3), but he isn't on Kawhi's level - especially defensively. If SA called Ainge and offered this deal up 1 for 1, he would take it. I swear, people are much more enamored with Kyrie now than before he got injured.

And I am perfectly fine with nick's plan of keeping everybody through next year and taking our best shot at GSW (he has been pretty adamant about this). I just wish it wasn't one of the best teams ever assembled we were fighting against.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: CelticsElite on May 22, 2018, 03:50:02 PM
Guys, this thread is a plea to keep an open mind.

I get your point but you really can't make this a Kyrie vs. Rozier debate.  Kyrie is by far the superior player and it would never come down to this anyway.

If anything, you could ask the question, would you rather have Rozier plus whatever you get back when you trade Kyrie or Kyrie and whatever you get back when you trade Rozier.  This of course is  now a purely hypothetical question.

Kyrie surprised me.  He is really good.  If we could swap Kyrie for Rozier for this series, imagine the difference that would make.  Rozier has really come on and is fine player but I think some people are getting carried away.  I see the difference as being as much as comparing Westbrook to George Hill (or something like that).

Isn't this the real key? If people are making the mistake of arguing that Rozier is better than Kyrie, you are going to continue getting the same smug responses that we are seeing in this thread. Very few people feel this way - it would be ridiculous to feel this way. I ask that people stop reading the 'argument' this way - it is getting annoying.

If we can trade Kyrie for Kawhi, but can only trade Rozier for the #13 pick, then you obviously choose Kawhi and Rozier (sorry, but I think Kawhi is a better player than Kyrie).

Acquiring Kawhi then means you'd need to trade one of Tatum, Brown, or Hayward. You can't realistically expect to keep all four of them, there's no way to play all four of them together for meaningful stretches.
also the salary cap makes it impossible to keep all 4.

Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: Beat LA on May 22, 2018, 05:28:17 PM
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Who in their right mind would ever want a car with leather seats unless they have some odd desire for their legs to undergo a kind of do-it-yourself non-chemical peel during the summer? Mmmmm! ::) ;D
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: PhoSita on May 22, 2018, 05:30:43 PM
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Who in their right mind would ever want a car with leather seats unless they have some odd desire for their legs to undergo a kind of do-it-yourself non-chemical peel during the summer? Mmmmm! ::) ;D

That's why you get tinted windows ;)

Or if you live in a place like where I live, where it's rarely ever warmer than 75 and rarely colder than 50, it's not an issue. :)
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: KGs Knee on May 22, 2018, 05:46:01 PM
I have no problem rolling out a team of Kawhi, Hayward, Jaylen, Jayson, and Al with solid ammunition off the bench at the guard spots. I like Kyrie a lot and there are very few players I would trade him for (like 2 or 3), but he isn't on Kawhi's level - especially defensively. If SA called Ainge and offered this deal up 1 for 1, he would take it. I swear, people are much more enamored with Kyrie now than before he got injured.


Kawhi may very well be a better all-around player than Kyrie, but a lineup of Horford-Tatum-Hayward-Brown-Irving would be hands down superior to a lineup of Horford-Tatum-Hayward-Leonard-Brown.

You're asking for all kinds of problems running out a lineup with no primary ball-handler.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: Beat LA on May 22, 2018, 07:25:19 PM
"We need to keep an open mind about the 'Rental Kia vs Lexus' debate.  We've got time."

Look, I know the Lexus has leather seats and a V6 and a reputation for reliability and performance.  I know it's got all the bells and whistles and it's really the Platonic ideal of a grown up luxury sedan.

But the Kia has gotten us through some tough commutes and honestly, it's a lot peppier than I expected.  They really get a lot of giddy-up out of the four banger, and it gets GREAT gas mileage!

Let's not jump to any conclusions about whether we want to consider trading in the Lexus and using the money to buy, like, a nice new ride lawn mower, maybe pay down some of the mortgage.  The Kia could be all the car we need!

Who in their right mind would ever want a car with leather seats unless they have some odd desire for their legs to undergo a kind of do-it-yourself non-chemical peel during the summer? Mmmmm! ::) ;D

That's why you get tinted windows ;)

Or if you live in a place like where I live, where it's rarely ever warmer than 75 and rarely colder than 50, it's not an issue. :)

Ohhhh, fancy ;D.
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: Beat LA on May 22, 2018, 07:29:00 PM
Rozier is a garbage defender. I'm not sure how much better he is when compared to irving.

Then take the fact that Irving is monumentally better than a Rozier as an offensive player and it's an easy easy easy call.

I'd ship Rozier out for something with long term team control be it a pick or youn guy.

::)
Title: Re: We need to keep an open mind about the Kyrie vs Rozier debate. We've got time.
Post by: gouki88 on May 22, 2018, 07:57:52 PM
Rozier is a garbage defender. I'm not sure how much better he is when compared to irving.

Then take the fact that Irving is monumentally better than a Rozier as an offensive player and it's an easy easy easy call.

I'd ship Rozier out for something with long term team control be it a pick or youn guy.

::)
Well, he’s certainly not an elite defender