CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: Eja117 on May 17, 2018, 11:00:44 PM
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Who ya got for most overrated and overhyped NBA players of all time?
I got
Lebron. I mean do all stars help him brush his teeth? Seriously, how many all stars does it take to help LeBron screw in a lightbulb in Cleveland? An ultimate quitter.
Wilt. I think Bill Russell still owns the deed on this guy.
Charles Barkley.
Dwayne Wade
Yao Ming...or was it Ouch Ming?
TMac
Sometimes I argue with myself about Hakeem Olajuwon. Would we think of him the same way had MJ not gone to play baseball? I guess not. I'm not so sure how many people elevate him tremendously over say Karl Malone or David Robinson
David Robinson. Got lucky in the strike season with Duncan then won another as Duncan's backup essentially.
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Steve Nash is a guy I find overrated. I really like his game, but I disagree with his accolades (notably MVP), as he was a weak defender and I think his numbers were inflated.
I would say AI is more overrated than TMac.
Draymond Green is well on his way to making this team.
I also disagree with Hakeem and Wilt being there.
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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol
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Who ya got for most overrated and overhyped NBA players of all time?
I got
Lebron. I mean do all stars help him brush his teeth? Seriously, how many all stars does it take to help LeBron screw in a lightbulb in Cleveland? An ultimate quitter.
Wilt. I think Bill Russell still owns the deed on this guy.
Charles Barkley.
Dwayne Wade
Yao Ming...or was it Ouch Ming?
TMac
Sometimes I argue with myself about Hakeem Olajuwon. Would we think of him the same way had MJ not gone to play baseball? I guess not. I'm not so sure how many people elevate him tremendously over say Karl Malone or David Robinson
David Robinson. Got lucky in the strike season with Duncan then won another as Duncan's backup essentially.
Well, you picked on one of my favorites, so I'm gonna have to throw down the gauntlet. ;D I think David Robinson was actually underrated.
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After Bill was done owing Wilt in Philly and Wilt moved to LA Bill owned him there too. But then Bill retired and the Knicks started owning him too.
Wilt's free throw percentage in one year was 38%. I think most of us could do better blindfolded.
Just a totally overhyped guy that figured out how to do the LaVar Ball thing ahead of its time.
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After Bill was done owing Wilt in Philly and Wilt moved to LA Bill owned him there too. But then Bill retired and the Knicks started owning him too.
Wilt's free throw percentage in one year was 38%. I think most of us could do better blindfolded.
Just a totally overhyped guy that figured out how to do the LaVar Ball thing ahead of its time.
That's all well and good, but when nobody has matched your career averages in a single season I think you're pretty good
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LBJ is a top 5 player, so cannot be overhyped lol.
Most over-hyped I'd say Kobe. I think Harden/Steph/Wade were/will be better scoring guards. Westbrook was trending on that list but I think the past two years have shown his warts pretty clearly.
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If you think Barkley was overhyped you never watched Barkley back then.
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Sometimes I argue with myself about Hakeem Olajuwon. Would we think of him the same way had MJ not gone to play baseball? I guess not. I'm not so sure how many people elevate him tremendously over say Karl Malone or David Robinson
Seriously? Olajuwon was incredible, and only McHale can best him in terms of post moves, imo. I also don't understand as to how people just believe that it's a given that Chicago would have beaten either version of those Houston teams that won back to back titles, as the Bulls simply had no answer for Hakeem during both of Chicago's three-peats.
Steve Nash is a guy I find overrated. I really like his game, but I disagree with his accolades (notably MVP), as he was a weak defender and I think his numbers were inflated.
I would say AI is more overrated than TMac.
Draymond Green is well on his way to making this team.
I also disagree with Hakeem and Wilt being there.
Agree on Draymond. Absolutely.
LBJ is a top 5 player, so cannot be overhyped lol.
Most over-hyped I'd say Kobe. I think Harden/Steph/Wade were/will be better scoring guards. Westbrook was trending on that list but I think the past two years have shown his warts pretty clearly.
I'm with you on Westbrook, definitely, and I'd have to add Carmelo Anthony to this list, as well. Joe Johnson was much better, imo, but somehow, and along with Pierce and Michael Redd, he just never got the recognition.
Dirk and Shaq also belong on eja's team, imo.
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Reggie Miller.
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I’m not going to do it now but will eventually go on a rant about how David Robinson may be the most underrated player ever.
That said, I’ve always thought Iverson was one of the most overrated players ever. Nash certainly belongs, as does Westbrook. Kobe was undoubtedly a great, great talent, but he’s not nearly where some like to place him. If Wilt was as dominant as his numbers suggested, he wouldn’t have “let” Russell win 11 championships.
LeBron, however, is as good as he was advertised, which is saying a lot because he was the most hyped prospect EVER. The guy actually lived up to expectations. Whether you rank him as GOAT (wrong) or top 10-15, he’s one of the greatest to ever play. Yes, he’s a whiner. Yes, he had The Decision debacle. But his success is undeniable. The guy has done some pretty extraordinary things in his career. When all is said and done, he will be the statistical GOAT, along with multiple rings, MVP’s and Finals MVP’s.
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I’m not going to do it now but will eventually go on a rant about how David Robinson may be the most underrated player ever.
That said, I’ve always thought Iverson was one of the most overrated players ever. Nash certainly belongs, as does Westbrook. Kobe was undoubtedly a great, great talent, but he’s not nearly where some like to place him. If Wilt was as dominant as his numbers suggested, he wouldn’t have “let” Russell win 11 championships.
LeBron, however, is as good as he was advertised, which is saying a lot because he was the most hyped prospect EVER. The guy actually lived up to expectations. Whether you rank him as GOAT (wrong) or top 10-15, he’s one of the greatest to ever play. Yes, he’s a whiner. Yes, he had The Decision debacle. But his success is undeniable. The guy has done some pretty extraordinary things in his career. When all is said and done, he will be the statistical GOAT, along with multiple rings, MVP’s and Finals MVP’s.
I have David Robinson over Hakeem, who imo is the most overrated center of all time.
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I’m not going to do it now but will eventually go on a rant about how David Robinson may be the most underrated player ever.
That said, I’ve always thought Iverson was one of the most overrated players ever. Nash certainly belongs, as does Westbrook. Kobe was undoubtedly a great, great talent, but he’s not nearly where some like to place him. If Wilt was as dominant as his numbers suggested, he wouldn’t have “let” Russell win 11 championships.
LeBron, however, is as good as he was advertised, which is saying a lot because he was the most hyped prospect EVER. The guy actually lived up to expectations. Whether you rank him as GOAT (wrong) or top 10-15, he’s one of the greatest to ever play. Yes, he’s a whiner. Yes, he had The Decision debacle. But his success is undeniable. The guy has done some pretty extraordinary things in his career. When all is said and done, he will be the statistical GOAT, along with multiple rings, MVP’s and Finals MVP’s.
I have David Robinson over Hakeem, who imo is the most overrated center of all time.
This one has always been super tough for me. Prime Robinson was a 25/12/3/3+/1+ guy, whereas prime Hakeem was pretty much identical, except probably a better rebounder and worse scorer.
I feel as if Robinson is underrated, whereas Hakeem is merely accurately rated.
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I’m not going to do it now but will eventually go on a rant about how David Robinson may be the most underrated player ever.
That said, I’ve always thought Iverson was one of the most overrated players ever. Nash certainly belongs, as does Westbrook. Kobe was undoubtedly a great, great talent, but he’s not nearly where some like to place him. If Wilt was as dominant as his numbers suggested, he wouldn’t have “let” Russell win 11 championships.
LeBron, however, is as good as he was advertised, which is saying a lot because he was the most hyped prospect EVER. The guy actually lived up to expectations. Whether you rank him as GOAT (wrong) or top 10-15, he’s one of the greatest to ever play. Yes, he’s a whiner. Yes, he had The Decision debacle. But his success is undeniable. The guy has done some pretty extraordinary things in his career. When all is said and done, he will be the statistical GOAT, along with multiple rings, MVP’s and Finals MVP’s.
I have David Robinson over Hakeem, who imo is the most overrated center of all time.
This one has always been super tough for me. Prime Robinson was a 25/12/3/3+/1+ guy, whereas prime Hakeem was pretty much identical, except probably a better rebounder and worse scorer.
I feel as if Robinson is underrated, whereas Hakeem is merely accurately rated.
Hakeem and Robinson played against each other during their primes numerous times. Hakeem outplayed him, there is no doubt about that. He had more team and individual success. David never was as good of a scorer as Hakeem. Sure, the Admiral led the league in scoring, but he could be shut down in the postseason, teams could prepare for him, whether the Dream was unstoppable. He had too many moves, too soft of a touch, too refined footwork for the opposition, and of course, he had the ultimate confidence that culminated in his B2B domination that netted two championships.
To me, overall Robinson was a better defender than he was the offensive player. Physically, his body was better than Aytons or that of any center today. I remember him defending with great success (include Shaq) even in his last playoff runs.
7'2'', long, strong, explosive, moves lateraly, disciplined - a specimen, NAT GEO level.
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Anyone who lists hakeem olajuwon as overrated before any mention of kevin garnett makes me wonder...lol
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I don't think LeBron is much of a leader. He is a guy who can carry the load on his team, but leadership other than I am going to try to win this game by myself type, is not something he possesses as a trait. In fact, he has turned on his team mates before and we all know he will demand this or that trade.
I know he wants to own a team. But he better hire a GM because some of these mid season trades have come back to bite him.
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Kobe. He’s a top-15 player, but the hype machine had him neck and neck with Jordan. The only reason he has 5 titles is because Shaq carried him to three of them (and the refs gave him another).
With his talent he should have been even better, but he never trusted his teammates.
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CP3. For all the hype as being the best PG of his generation, his post season record is not something to look at despite finally reaching the conference finals this season.
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If you think Barkley was overhyped you never watched Barkley back then.
I watched him get whacked every post season.
He joined a Sixers team that had just won the championship and made it worse.
Then he joined a Suns team, went to one who finals and got shellacked.
Then he joined Drexler and Olojuwon where they had a great year....and then got shellacked.
He's not just a guy who never won a big one. He's a guy that hardly ever got to big ones and did it with teams that had recently won, and then still didn't get back.
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CP3. For all the hype as being the best PG of his generation, his post season record is not something to look at despite finally reaching the conference finals this season.
That whole Clippers team is a great answer
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First let me say that calling someone or something overrated doesn't mean that they're bad. They're just not as good as people make them out to be. I won't list guys like Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis because I don't believe they're big enough names to be "overrated." Saying that my list looks like this.
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Pete Maravich
3. Dominique Wilkins
4. Carmelo Anyhony
5. Vince Carter
6. Patrick Ewing
7. Allen Iverson
8. Steve Nash
9. Dwight Howard
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Soon it should be time to make the underrated team
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Soon it should be time to make the underrated team
Just about any Spurs team if you're talking to my friends. I have to defend them and they call them "dull, boring and forgetful."
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I would say AI is more overrated than TMac.
Woah woah woah. AI dragged a horrid team to the finals. TMac never made a conference finals and had a very hard time just making it to round two.
Which brings me to another guy......Dwight Howard. Not really Superman worthy.
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Soon it should be time to make the underrated team
Just about any Spurs team if you're talking to my friends. I have to defend them and they call them "dull, boring and forgetful."
Duncan takes LeBron to the wood shed every day of the week.
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Soon it should be time to make the underrated team
Just about any Spurs team if you're talking to my friends. I have to defend them and they call them "dull, boring and forgetful."
Duncan takes LeBron to the wood shed every day of the week.
Hey, in my book Duncan is the best player of his generation.
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I don't know if Lebron is overrated since he has had so much success over a long period of time with incredible stats. However, one narrative has always bothered my about Lebron and that is that he elevates his teammates; I just think that is totally untrue.
While he is clearly a leader on the court and one of the best 'Point Forwards' ever, I actually generally think other players decline when they play with Lebron (and improve when they leave). If you take this current version of the Cavs. Hill, Clarkson, Hood, and Nance Jr were all clearly better players before coming to CLE. Love put up bigger stats with Minny, but the team was also horrible so of course his numbers were going to take a hit. Korver has had some success, but I think it's because his role as a catch and shoot 3-point shooter is perfect in a Lebron system.
It's not that Lebron can't control a game - clearly he can - but unless you're a player with the ultimate confidence (see JR Smith), you can never really have success on a Lebron team if any part of your game depends on making moves with the ball - you just won't ever have that opportunity. He'll trust a player like Kyrie to take over part of the game, but everybody else just walks around on eggshells wondering when the time will come that he will yell at them.
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CP3. For all the hype as being the best PG of his generation, his post season record is not something to look at despite finally reaching the conference finals this season.
I don't think CP3 is overrated though. If anything the national narrative reinforces his lack of playoff success. CP3 deserves to be included on a very short list of the best point guards of this generation. His playoff failures are holding him back from consideration as one the the GOAT's at the PG position. I'm not normally a fan of all-time lists but here is a recent ranking of the top 70 PG's from the Orlando magic site on NBA.com. They ranked Paul at #13 which seems pretty fair to me.
http://www.nba.com/magic/ranking-70-top-point-guards-history-11-20180131 (http://www.nba.com/magic/ranking-70-top-point-guards-history-11-20180131)
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CP3. For all the hype as being the best PG of his generation, his post season record is not something to look at despite finally reaching the conference finals this season.
I don't think CP3 is overrated though. If anything the national narrative reinforces his lack of playoff success. CP3 deserves to be included on a very short list of the best point guards of this generation. His playoff failures are holding him back from consideration as one the the GOAT's at the PG position. I'm not normally a fan of all-time lists but here is a recent ranking of the top 70 PG's from the Orlando magic site on NBA.com. They ranked Paul at #13 which seems pretty fair to me.
http://www.nba.com/magic/ranking-70-top-point-guards-history-11-20180131 (http://www.nba.com/magic/ranking-70-top-point-guards-history-11-20180131)
I wouldn't put CP3 above the Glove. Payton is the sole point guard who won DPOY in NBA history, challenging the 72-10 Bulls in the NBA finals in 6 games. Not to mention, he have more conference finals appearance while leading his team.
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CP3. For all the hype as being the best PG of his generation, his post season record is not something to look at despite finally reaching the conference finals this season.
I don't think CP3 is overrated though. If anything the national narrative reinforces his lack of playoff success. CP3 deserves to be included on a very short list of the best point guards of this generation. His playoff failures are holding him back from consideration as one the the GOAT's at the PG position. I'm not normally a fan of all-time lists but here is a recent ranking of the top 70 PG's from the Orlando magic site on NBA.com. They ranked Paul at #13 which seems pretty fair to me.
http://www.nba.com/magic/ranking-70-top-point-guards-history-11-20180131 (http://www.nba.com/magic/ranking-70-top-point-guards-history-11-20180131)
It's hard to be call someone as the best PG of an era if you don't show up when it matters for years and years. I feel like the last time he played this healthy and long in the postseason was the game 7 NOLA vs SAS series.
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Chris Webber = bad shot selection throughout his career. Mediocre scoring efficiency yet never stopped him putting up loads of shots. Indifferent defender for majority of his healthy career and terrible defender post injury. Only had a couple of years where he put effort in on defense. A choker in big moments. Bad team leader. Almost always passed the buck to a teammate instead of taking control.
Dr. J = genuinely great player but I don't think he is top 15 all time. Did not make his teammates better. Great scorer around the basket but sketchy jump-shot. Good but unspectacular passer. A highly capable defender but often caught ball watching and going for home-run plays on D.
Definitely agree with CP3. Great talent but his obsession with spoon-feeding his teammates instead of trusting them hurt his teams.
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CP3. For all the hype as being the best PG of his generation, his post season record is not something to look at despite finally reaching the conference finals this season.
I don't think CP3 is overrated though. If anything the national narrative reinforces his lack of playoff success. CP3 deserves to be included on a very short list of the best point guards of this generation. His playoff failures are holding him back from consideration as one the the GOAT's at the PG position. I'm not normally a fan of all-time lists but here is a recent ranking of the top 70 PG's from the Orlando magic site on NBA.com. They ranked Paul at #13 which seems pretty fair to me.
http://www.nba.com/magic/ranking-70-top-point-guards-history-11-20180131 (http://www.nba.com/magic/ranking-70-top-point-guards-history-11-20180131)
It's hard to be call someone as the best PG of an era if you don't show up when it matters for years and years. I feel like the last time he played this healthy and long in the postseason was the game 7 NOLA vs SAS series.
I never called him the definitive best. My point is that most people mention the failures whenever his name comes up in these discussions. The list I posted ranked Kidd, Nash, Parker, Curry, and Westbrook ahead of him. If anything he is being rated perfectly among post-2000 PG's.
As for the 7 game series against SAS, it's a shame that suffered the major knee injury shortly after that. His speed and quickness was at an entirely different level.
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First let me say that calling someone or something overrated doesn't mean that they're bad. They're just not as good as people make them out to be. I won't list guys like Stephon Marbury or Steve Francis because I don't believe they're big enough names to be "overrated." Saying that my list looks like this.
1. Kobe Bryant
2. Pete Maravich
3. Dominique Wilkins
4. Carmelo Anyhony
5. Vince Carter
6. Patrick Ewing
7. Allen Iverson
8. Steve Nash
9. Dwight Howard
Pete Maravich is a weird one to list for me. I get that he never really maxed out on the talent that he had, and that his unbelievable college career might make him out as a guy that he wasn't, but he was still a very reliable 25/5/5 guy for some years. He was also amazingly talented
Curious as to why you think he was overrated
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Here's my two cents on these debates. I think we often tag players as overrated when in reality almost EVERYONE is saying the same thing. I already made my points about CP3 but let's look at Vince Carter as another example. There was a point in time that he was overrated during the middle stages of his career. However, as time goes on I think his overall legacy has been placed in the proper perspective. Most people remember Vince Carter an elite talent in his prime and the greatest dunker of all time. Aside from those two things we never hear him mentioned as one of the greatest players of his generation. His ranking seems pretty spot on to me.
Carmelo was also overrated for a short stretch but the general consensus is that he's a one-dimensional losing player. Same goes for Dwight Howard. People have been bashing his credentials for a long time.
The overrated arguments are more applicable to LeBron, Kobe, Iverson etc. There are mainstream defenders of Kobe who rank him firmly ahead of LeBron, just like there are people who attach the GOAT tag to LeBron. Iverson also appears to be held in high regard compared to some of his peers who were equal or better winners.
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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol
I absolutely hate this argument.
So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!! It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.
Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.
As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
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Webber was a good one I hadn't thought of.
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I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned Draymond Green on here.
I get it, he's a high energy presence in the court and a solid two-way player (very gritty defender). And yes, you need a guy like that on your team to win a championship.
THAT SAID, it makes me laugh when people say this guy is a Top-15 player in this league, and a "superstar". He may be a fringe all-star, but he's NOT a superstar. If he is, then there are about 25 other superstars in this league.
Put him on a team like Milwaukee or Memphis and you'll never hear from him again.
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I'm surprised more people haven't mentioned Draymond Green on here.
I get it, he's a high energy presence in the court and a solid two-way player (very gritty defender). And yes, you need a guy like that on your team to win a championship.
THAT SAID, it makes me laugh when people say this guy is a Top-15 player in this league, and a "superstar". He may be a fringe all-star, but he's NOT a superstar. If he is, then there are about 25 other superstars in this league.
Put him on a team like Milwaukee or Memphis and you'll never hear from him again.
Yep, lol. He was the first guy that popped into my head. He's a scumbag to boot
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No...he's a top 5 player of all time.
Much respect due.
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This is another piece relevant to "overrated" discussions, based on a Ringer article from a week ago.
This ties into another idea that bothers me; either teammates and team play matter when discussing star players or it doesn't. It bothers me when people glorify TEAM ball and its a TEAM game in one place, then attribute success or assign blame for failure to just the best player on the team. Either teammates and opponents and context matter or they don't; I tend to think they do, but I also tend to prefer nuance and not simplistic answers.
First, let me say I DO NOT LIKE PER in a vacuum. But it is useful to compare a player to himself from different stretches of a season, to roughly see are they player better or worse.
Exactly 150 players this season have played at least 10 minutes per game in both the regular season and playoffs, which makes such ordering easy: The 15 players with the greatest positive differential between their regular and postseason PER represent the top 10 percent of overachievers, while the 15 players with the greatest negative differential represent the top 10 percent of underachievers.
Here are the top 15 "overacheivers" from this year's playoffs:
(http://i443.photobucket.com/albums/qq159/fanfromvt/playoff%20better.jpg) (http://s443.photobucket.com/user/fanfromvt/media/playoff%20better.jpg.html)
Perhaps even more relevant to this conversation of "overrated" players is this portion:
One final wrinkle in this analysis is to look at career over- or underperformance in the postseason, and here, another player who purports to activate a playoff version of himself leaps to the top of the leaderboard: Rajon Rondo. Among the 79 active players who have appeared in at least 50 career playoff games, Rondo is the greatest PER improver in the playoffs. Draymond Green ranks second and Dirk Nowitzki third; those are the only three players whose playoff PER improved by at least one point relative to the regular season, though the likes of Lance Stephenson (plus-0.9), Kyrie Irving (plus-0.6), and James (plus-0.5) are close. Interestingly, Chris Paul, despite a few memorable postseason flameouts, has seen his PER nudge slightly upward in the playoffs (plus-0.1), and he’s one of just 15 players who can claim even the smallest sliver of improvement.
As a group, the 79-person sample has seen its PER drop by an average of 1.1 points, likely because facing stingier defenses on a nightly basis has limited efficiency. To that end, the negative end of the career playoff spectrum is mostly filled with role players who saw their output diminish against the league’s toughest defenses, though Kyle Lowry (minus-2.7), DeMar DeRozan (minus-1.9), and James Harden (minus-1.8) stand out because of their history of playoff shortcomings.
Because they stretch out over full careers rather than just one or two series, the PER differentials are flattened here, but like with the leaderboard tables up top, it’s useful when the numbers both confirm intuitive conclusions and provide new narrative points. We have hard evidence, now, that Playoff Rondo is real. So is Playoff Al, at least this year.
So, most players, even great ones, have their PER go down, because there are no cupcake opponents, and everyone is trying more on defense. Of 79 active players with decent playoff experience, only 15 have a higher career playoff PER than regular season PER, and Chris Paul is one. So, maybe, it's not purely his fault? Maybe his opposing teams have just been better than the combination of CP and CP's teammates?
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PER is so tied to usage and shot attempts I think that article is pretty pointless. Even when comparing a player to himself.
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No. He is the 2nd best player all time. He may get alot of attention and praise, he deserves every bit of it even if I hate him for being a whiny cry baby.
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few days ago when BS didn't get any votes in the coach association coach of the year vote people considered it (quite rightfully Imo) disrespectful .... And then went on to discuss whether LeBron James is overrated.....
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Kobe. He’s a top-15 player, but the hype machine had him neck and neck with Jordan. The only reason he has 5 titles is because Shaq carried him to three of them (and the refs gave him another).
With his talent he should have been even better, but he never trusted his teammates.
I think it's amazing how the hype machine has flipped the narrative on Kobe. (But some of that is due to the fact the narrative on Shaq and Karl Malone has also somewhat changed).
Pre-2008:
* Kobe is a selfish ball hog (like when the All-Star game was still somewhat serious and he waved off a pick from Karl Malone to go one-on-one with Jordan, so George Karl benched him).
* Kobe is a terrible teammate, drove Shaq out of town, didn't get along with teammates, while Shaq was and continued to be everyone's favorite teammate.
* Didn't invite any teammates to his wedding.
* Terrible son/brother. Parents and sisters didn't go to his wedding, sued his mother for cleaning out her own home after she'd been asking him for years to come get his stuff, etc.
* Not coachable, made Phil Jackson quit. Drove Rudy T. to either quit or get fired.
* Couldn't lead the Lakers to the playoffs ('05), or out of the first round ('06-'07) as a one man show, while Shaq was still winning championships in Miami.
* Constant stories of Kobe being selfish, a jerk, etc.
* Rapist
Post-2008:
* Shaq is lazy, Kobe is just a work horse who won't accept anything less than 100%.
* Karl Malone is a scumbag rapist who hit on Kobe's wife.
* Kobe's family were scumbags, didn't attend his wedding, tried to sell all his stuff.
* Kobe's one of the greatest competitors of all time.
* Constant stories of Kobe being a great teammate, leader, competitor
Now some of that is Kobe's own growth, but a lot of it is perception. Like when Shaq was dominate, Kobe was the jerk and it was all his fault. Kobe has the team to himself and not winning, see he's a slefish jerk, not a leader. Kobe's now winning, and Shaq was no longer dominate, it was all Shaq's fault, Kobe's a great teammate and leader.
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I don't know if Lebron is overrated since he has had so much success over a long period of time with incredible stats. However, one narrative has always bothered my about Lebron and that is that he elevates his teammates; I just think that is totally untrue.
While he is clearly a leader on the court and one of the best 'Point Forwards' ever, I actually generally think other players decline when they play with Lebron (and improve when they leave). If you take this current version of the Cavs. Hill, Clarkson, Hood, and Nance Jr were all clearly better players before coming to CLE. Love put up bigger stats with Minny, but the team was also horrible so of course his numbers were going to take a hit. Korver has had some success, but I think it's because his role as a catch and shoot 3-point shooter is perfect in a Lebron system.
It's not that Lebron can't control a game - clearly he can - but unless you're a player with the ultimate confidence (see JR Smith), you can never really have success on a Lebron team if any part of your game depends on making moves with the ball - you just won't ever have that opportunity. He'll trust a player like Kyrie to take over part of the game, but everybody else just walks around on eggshells wondering when the time will come that he will yell at them.
Counterpoint: I somehow still know the name Daniel Gibson.
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I dont think you can overrate someone who is a top 10 all time player. You can mix and match the top 10 however you want based on whatever you want and people's opinions will vary. But Lebron is top 10 all-time so what does it matter if people think hes number 1, 5, 10.. that is getting pretty specific.
Lots of non-Celtic fans think Larry Bird is overrated for instance. But myself am convinced he was the greatest player to ever play the game.
Lebron may be some people's number 1 Goat, some top 3, top 5 or top 10.... there is no clear answer.
When it comes to someone being overrated. I think it can only really apply to someone not considered GOAT on a regular basis.
After the Raptors sweep a lot of social media was talking about Lebron being #1 GOAT. You cant blame them for taking this stance in this moment of history. When Duncan retired a few years ago everyone was claiming him the #1 GOAT, with good reason as well. When Steph and KD retire there might be GOAT talk there as well.
When Tatum retires the debate will end.
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I have hard time calling someone that is widely viewed as a top 3 player all time as overrated. Now if you want to argue that he gets too much hype, too much press, etc., I can listen to arguments on that. But being overhyped and being overrated are no where near the same thing.
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I don't know if Lebron is overrated since he has had so much success over a long period of time with incredible stats. However, one narrative has always bothered my about Lebron and that is that he elevates his teammates; I just think that is totally untrue.
While he is clearly a leader on the court and one of the best 'Point Forwards' ever, I actually generally think other players decline when they play with Lebron (and improve when they leave). If you take this current version of the Cavs. Hill, Clarkson, Hood, and Nance Jr were all clearly better players before coming to CLE. Love put up bigger stats with Minny, but the team was also horrible so of course his numbers were going to take a hit. Korver has had some success, but I think it's because his role as a catch and shoot 3-point shooter is perfect in a Lebron system.
It's not that Lebron can't control a game - clearly he can - but unless you're a player with the ultimate confidence (see JR Smith), you can never really have success on a Lebron team if any part of your game depends on making moves with the ball - you just won't ever have that opportunity. He'll trust a player like Kyrie to take over part of the game, but everybody else just walks around on eggshells wondering when the time will come that he will yell at them.
Counterpoint: I somehow still know the name Daniel Gibson.
I think LeBron James - similar to Allen Iverson or Tyreke Evans - is excellent at elevating the play of spot up shooters (Gibson, Korver, Big Z) and rim shooters (Varejao, Tristan Thompson). Finishers. Players who cannot create much for themselves but are great at playing off the ball and hitting open shots that are created for them by someone else (LeBron).
I don't think LeBron - similar to Iverson or Tyreke - is as good playing next to creators. Guys who need the ball and can create for themselves and/or others. Guys like D-Wade & Bosh or Kyrie and K-Love. He doesn't get the most out of those guys. Those players struggle to get enough touches in the right spots in the flow of the offense. It often becomes a his turn / my turn type of setup instead of true teamwork. LeBron struggled with both Bosh and K-Love offensively. He struggled with slashers like Larry Hughes too.
LeBron is great at dominating the ball and elevating the play of role players.
I don't think he is great at sharing the ball with other scorers/creators.
Again -- similar to Iverson or a Tyreke Evans
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I have hard time calling someone that is widely viewed as a top 3 player all time as overrated. Now if you want to argue that he gets too much hype, too much press, etc., I can listen to arguments on that. But being overhyped and being overrated are no where near the same thing.
I think that's part of it
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LBJ is a great offensive player. The reason the Cavs suck on defense is because of him. He is usually covering the least offensive player on the other team and does so by standing in the paint
He does not close out on shooters and does not work at all.
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I’m not going to do it now but will eventually go on a rant about how David Robinson may be the most underrated player ever.
That said, I’ve always thought Iverson was one of the most overrated players ever. Nash certainly belongs, as does Westbrook. Kobe was undoubtedly a great, great talent, but he’s not nearly where some like to place him. If Wilt was as dominant as his numbers suggested, he wouldn’t have “let” Russell win 11 championships.
LeBron, however, is as good as he was advertised, which is saying a lot because he was the most hyped prospect EVER. The guy actually lived up to expectations. Whether you rank him as GOAT (wrong) or top 10-15, he’s one of the greatest to ever play. Yes, he’s a whiner. Yes, he had The Decision debacle. But his success is undeniable. The guy has done some pretty extraordinary things in his career. When all is said and done, he will be the statistical GOAT, along with multiple rings, MVP’s and Finals MVP’s.
I have David Robinson over Hakeem, who imo is the most overrated center of all time.
This one has always been super tough for me. Prime Robinson was a 25/12/3/3+/1+ guy, whereas prime Hakeem was pretty much identical, except probably a better rebounder and worse scorer.
I feel as if Robinson is underrated, whereas Hakeem is merely accurately rated.
Hakeem and Robinson played against each other during their primes numerous times. Hakeem outplayed him, there is no doubt about that. He had more team and individual success. David never was as good of a scorer as Hakeem. Sure, the Admiral led the league in scoring, but he could be shut down in the postseason, teams could prepare for him, whether the Dream was unstoppable. He had too many moves, too soft of a touch, too refined footwork for the opposition, and of course, he had the ultimate confidence that culminated in his B2B domination that netted two championships.
To me, overall Robinson was a better defender than he was the offensive player. Physically, his body was better than Aytons or that of any center today. I remember him defending with great success (include Shaq) even in his last playoff runs.
7'2'', long, strong, explosive, moves lateraly, disciplined - a specimen, NAT GEO level.
The most sculpted arms and shoulders in NBA history.
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My overrated do you mean, rather than being the 1st or 2nd best player of all time, he might be 3rd or 4th?
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I can't help but think if you think Lebron is overratec that you just can't put aside your distaste for Lebron to see just how great he is. Is he overhyped in the modern internet media world? Sure. Overrated? I don't see it. He is definitely a top 7 player ever with MJ, Magic, Bird, Russell, Chamberlain and Kareem. Where you rank him is personal but he is definitely there and I can understand arguments for him being anywhere from 2nd to 7th best.
My all time overrated list:
Allen Iverson - a ridiculously bad defensive player that was a terribly inefficient chucker that seemed to be more worried about getting his and getting respect than winning. I think his last couple of years in the league epitomized what he was as a player and teammate.
Kobe - he always needed an excellent big to be successful in the Triangle. Shaq carried him to 3 titles. He wasn't terribly efficient. And his selection to so many All-Defense teams was a pure joke and everyone knew it.
CP3 - how can such an unclutch player be considered so great? He rarely comes up big in the biggest moments or games. And can someone please explain to me how he got so many All-Defense team awards when he was in the league with Avery Bradley and Bradley didn't get those awards. Baffling to me.
Vince Carter - dude never made his teammates better. He was nothing but flash for points for so long and his defense wasn't good. But because he could fly and dunk, people loved him as a player and I think severely overrated his overall talent and all around skills.
Current most overrated Celtic: Marcus Smart
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Soon it should be time to make the underrated team
Harold Minor better be number 1 on that list.
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Chris Webber = bad shot selection throughout his career. Mediocre scoring efficiency yet never stopped him putting up loads of shots. Indifferent defender for majority of his healthy career and terrible defender post injury. Only had a couple of years where he put effort in on defense. A choker in big moments. Bad team leader. Almost always passed the buck to a teammate instead of taking control.
Dr. J = genuinely great player but I don't think he is top 15 all time. Did not make his teammates better. Great scorer around the basket but sketchy jump-shot. Good but unspectacular passer. A highly capable defender but often caught ball watching and going for home-run plays on D.
Definitely agree with CP3. Great talent but his obsession with spoon-feeding his teammates instead of trusting them hurt his teams.
Webber's calling timeout skills are greatly underrated.
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I definitely don't think Lebron is overrated but I agree with a lot of names here. Iverson might be my first choice. He is looked at as this amazing player but he only went far in the playoffs one or two times. I think Isaiah Thomas played as well or better last year than Iverson ever played.
Webber was definitely overrated. Constant mistakes and being scared to even have the ball at the end of important games. I remember him being wide open in crunch time and turning his back totally away from the rim and panicking looking to find Jon Barry, Doug Christie, or Mike Bibby. It was embarrassing. I actually saw KG do the same thing on the Wolves several times but he was so awesome throughout the games that I wouldn't put him on my list.
Vince Carter- absolutely. I don't think he was ever a great player. Kobe- I have to agree that he is overrated by the people who think he is one of best ever.
Demarcus Cousins was greatly overrated for a few years but I think that most people's perception have fallen in line with his actual impact on winning. I think Rasheed Wallace was greatly overrated for a time. I've never seen such a lazy out of shape player get so much respect.
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I concur on the Vince Carter hype.
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Kobe. He’s a top-15 player, but the hype machine had him neck and neck with Jordan. The only reason he has 5 titles is because Shaq carried him to three of them (and the refs gave him another).
With his talent he should have been even better, but he never trusted his teammates.
This is a pretty interesting interpretation of Kobe's career.
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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol
I absolutely hate this argument.
So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!! It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.
Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.
As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron. Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
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Kevin Durant.
Had Westbrook, Harden, and Ibaka all on the same team and blew it
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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol
I absolutely hate this argument.
So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!! It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.
Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.
As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron. Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving, Parrish >> Bosh, Love
Kareem>> Wade, Irving, Worthy >> Bosh, Love
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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol
I absolutely hate this argument.
So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!! It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.
Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.
As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron. Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving, Parrish >> Bosh, Love
Kareem>> Wade, Irving, Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.
A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
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I’m not going to do it now but will eventually go on a rant about how David Robinson may be the most underrated player ever.
That said, I’ve always thought Iverson was one of the most overrated players ever. Nash certainly belongs, as does Westbrook. Kobe was undoubtedly a great, great talent, but he’s not nearly where some like to place him. If Wilt was as dominant as his numbers suggested, he wouldn’t have “let” Russell win 11 championships.
LeBron, however, is as good as he was advertised, which is saying a lot because he was the most hyped prospect EVER. The guy actually lived up to expectations. Whether you rank him as GOAT (wrong) or top 10-15, he’s one of the greatest to ever play. Yes, he’s a whiner. Yes, he had The Decision debacle. But his success is undeniable. The guy has done some pretty extraordinary things in his career. When all is said and done, he will be the statistical GOAT, along with multiple rings, MVP’s and Finals MVP’s.
I have David Robinson over Hakeem, who imo is the most overrated center of all time.
This one has always been super tough for me. Prime Robinson was a 25/12/3/3+/1+ guy, whereas prime Hakeem was pretty much identical, except probably a better rebounder and worse scorer.
I feel as if Robinson is underrated, whereas Hakeem is merely accurately rated.
Hakeem and Robinson played against each other during their primes numerous times. Hakeem outplayed him, there is no doubt about that. He had more team and individual success. David never was as good of a scorer as Hakeem. Sure, the Admiral led the league in scoring, but he could be shut down in the postseason, teams could prepare for him, whether the Dream was unstoppable. He had too many moves, too soft of a touch, too refined footwork for the opposition, and of course, he had the ultimate confidence that culminated in his B2B domination that netted two championships.
To me, overall Robinson was a better defender than he was the offensive player. Physically, his body was better than Aytons or that of any center today. I remember him defending with great success (include Shaq) even in his last playoff runs.
7'2'', long, strong, explosive, moves lateraly, disciplined - a specimen, NAT GEO level.
The most sculpted arms and shoulders in NBA history.
Firstly, the reason why I say Hakeem is overrated is because people put him at crazy spots like 2nd greatest center of all time, whereas he's really probably at the Admiral's level. Also, teams couldn't gameplan for Hakeem because he actually had teammates that were great at putting the ball in the baske, while the Admiral had to drag a 25 win team into a 50 win team in his rookie season and had minimal offensive talent around him until he started aging. And yeah the "ultimate confidence" in an era where its best player wasn't playing or was just trying to get his game legs back.
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I always thought the Mailman had the most sculpted arms
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Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving, Parrish >> Bosh, Love
Kareem>> Wade, Irving, Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also never quit on their team, or left games early with cramps.
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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol
I absolutely hate this argument.
So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!! It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.
Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.
As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron. Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving, Parrish >> Bosh, Love
Kareem>> Wade, Irving, Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.
A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
The Cavs are a bad team that Lebron carried to the ECF. Love is an all-star in name only. Swap Lebron for any other star in the league and the Cavs get bounced in the 1st round.
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LeBron is a great player that is for certain but there has always been some intangibles missing in his game. Hard to put your finger on, but we will see it again in this series. It is a must win for them tonight, so I expect him to be in full beast mode.
I think that if we can stay with them and he gets tired that he will fold like a deck of cards or come out the game saying the head injury is bothering him. I live in Ohio, there is no player better in the world when things are going his way. There also is no superstar willing to quit on his team faster when things are not going his way.
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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol
I absolutely hate this argument.
So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!! It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.
Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.
As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron. Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving, Parrish >> Bosh, Love
Kareem>> Wade, Irving, Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.
A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
The Cavs are a bad team that Lebron carried to the ECF. Love is an all-star in name only. Swap Lebron for any other star in the league and the Cavs get bounced in the 1st round.
It's the same team as last year, but instead of Kyrie they have Larry Nance Jr, Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, Rodney Hood, Ante Zizic, and Jeff Green.
They swept the Raptors.
I can't imagine Brad Stevens having a team like that and not being way better than they are.
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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol
I absolutely hate this argument.
So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!! It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.
Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.
As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron. Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving, Parrish >> Bosh, Love
Kareem>> Wade, Irving, Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.
A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
The Cavs are a bad team that Lebron carried to the ECF. Love is an all-star in name only. Swap Lebron for any other star in the league and the Cavs get bounced in the 1st round.
It's the same team as last year, but instead of Kyrie they have Larry Nance Jr, Jordan Clarkson, George Hill, Rodney Hood, Ante Zizic, and Jeff Green.
They swept the Raptors.
I can't imagine Brad Stevens having a team like that and not being way better than they are.
Instead of having a top 15 player who could help Lebron carry the load, they added a bunch of poor to mediocre role players and most of them were picked up at the trade deadline. The only one of those players who'd even be in consideration to start for our depleted team is Hill. Lue absolutely sucks as a coach which adds to the load Lebron is carrying.
Lebron swept the Raptors (talk about overrated). It also took a Herculean effort from him to get past the Pacers in 7.
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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol
I absolutely hate this argument.
So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!! It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.
Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.
As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron. Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving, Parrish >> Bosh, Love
Kareem>> Wade, Irving, Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.
A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
Yes. In fact, in 83 Bird was swept out of the playoffs in the 2nd round by the Milwaukee Bucks. Now granted both Moncrief and Johnson made the 83 All Star game, and Bird missed a game in the series, but they still had Bird for 3, along with Parish, McHale, Ainge, Henderson, Maxwell, and Tiny and got embarrassed by a team without a single HOFer under the age of 34 (that was Bob Lanier at the tail end of his career).
The Lakers won the title in 80 and then lost in the 1st round in 81 to the Rockets. Now the Rockets were led by Moses Malone, who made the all star team, but that year both Kareem and Wilkes were all stars, and Magic was not. In those days the 1st round was only 3 games, but it is still a pretty embarrassing loss for the defending champs (the Lakers would also win the 82 title). The 86 Lakers also got embarrassed by the Rockets, who were Hakeem, Sampson, and a bunch of crap and had no where near the top end talent of depth of the Lakers (Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott). The Lakers won game 1 and then were blitzed in the next 3 before losing a close game 5.
This idea that great teams of the past were never embarrassed in the playoffs by inferior competition is just hog wash.
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To answer the OP's question... No.
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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol
I absolutely hate this argument.
So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!! It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.
Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.
As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron. Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving, Parrish >> Bosh, Love
Kareem>> Wade, Irving, Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.
A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
Yes. In fact, in 83 Bird was swept out of the playoffs in the 2nd round by the Milwaukee Bucks. Now granted both Moncrief and Johnson made the 83 All Star game, and Bird missed a game in the series, but they still had Bird for 3, along with Parish, McHale, Ainge, Henderson, Maxwell, and Tiny and got embarrassed by a team without a single HOFer under the age of 34 (that was Bob Lanier at the tail end of his career).
The Lakers won the title in 80 and then lost in the 1st round in 81 to the Rockets. Now the Rockets were led by Moses Malone, who made the all star team, but that year both Kareem and Wilkes were all stars, and Magic was not. In those days the 1st round was only 3 games, but it is still a pretty embarrassing loss for the defending champs (the Lakers would also win the 82 title). The 86 Lakers also got embarrassed by the Rockets, who were Hakeem, Sampson, and a bunch of crap and had no where near the top end talent of depth of the Lakers (Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott). The Lakers won game 1 and then were blitzed in the next 3 before losing a close game 5.
This idea that great teams of the past were never embarrassed in the playoffs by inferior competition is just hog wash.
How about Jordan and Bill Russell?
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He's lost 5 times in the finals Lol
I absolutely hate this argument.
So Lebron is 3-5 in 8 finals appearances. Larry bird was 3-2 in 5 appearances. It's easy to say winning 3/5 is better than winning 3/8, but this ignores the fact that this unfortunately means BIRD LOST MORE EVEN EARLIER IN THE PLAYOFFS!!!! It is better to win the conference finals and lose in the finals than to just lose in the conference finals. If you are going by "winning," if you have the same number of titles it is more impressive to have won your conference more often and made more finals appearances.
Same thing happened in some of the Brady arguments. "Montana was 4-0, Brady was 4-2"(before the ATL + PHI superbowls). But this means Montana couldn't even make it to the big game a few times, meaning he couldn't even get out of his own conference 2 extra times.
As an aside, here is an interesting 538 article from a couple years ago (before Lebron's cleveland title but after the first GS loss) showing various MVP players and their predicted finals wins vs actual finals wins.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lebrons-finals-record-isnt-really-a-disappointment/
Ok, but try to imagine Larry, Magic, and Dr J getting together on a team. How many rings does that team win? That's Bron. Bron can't ride a bike without 2 all stars to help him.
Larry and Magic had multiple all-stars to help them and better overall teams than Lebron did
McHale>> Wade, Irving, Parrish >> Bosh, Love
Kareem>> Wade, Irving, Worthy >> Bosh, Love
They also weren't quitters.
A team with two all stars (including the supposed best player on Earth) is about to get beat by a team with one all star. And not just beat but beaten up. Did stuff like that happen to Magic and Larry?
Yes. In fact, in 83 Bird was swept out of the playoffs in the 2nd round by the Milwaukee Bucks. Now granted both Moncrief and Johnson made the 83 All Star game, and Bird missed a game in the series, but they still had Bird for 3, along with Parish, McHale, Ainge, Henderson, Maxwell, and Tiny and got embarrassed by a team without a single HOFer under the age of 34 (that was Bob Lanier at the tail end of his career).
The Lakers won the title in 80 and then lost in the 1st round in 81 to the Rockets. Now the Rockets were led by Moses Malone, who made the all star team, but that year both Kareem and Wilkes were all stars, and Magic was not. In those days the 1st round was only 3 games, but it is still a pretty embarrassing loss for the defending champs (the Lakers would also win the 82 title). The 86 Lakers also got embarrassed by the Rockets, who were Hakeem, Sampson, and a bunch of crap and had no where near the top end talent of depth of the Lakers (Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Cooper, Scott). The Lakers won game 1 and then were blitzed in the next 3 before losing a close game 5.
This idea that great teams of the past were never embarrassed in the playoffs by inferior competition is just hog wash.
How about Jordan and Bill Russell?
Bill Russell played with at least 4 other HOFers for basically his entire career. It is pretty difficult to get any sort of gauge on what his career was like. I will say though, the 1 time Chamberlain had 2 other in prime HOF teammates he steamrolled the Celtics. It can't be understated how good a job Red did in putting those Celtics teams together. He was the greatest GM the league has ever seen and it isn't close.
Jordan really didn't lose series he shouldn't have lost (though did lose to a 1 all star, no HOF Bucks team), but he also never won as an underdog in his entire career. Jordan was your classic front runner and during the title seasons was arguably playing with the 2nd best player in the entire league and the only player truly capable of guarding him.
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I'm pretty sure that a guy who has been the centerpiece of teams that have been to 8 straight NBA Finals cannot, by definition, be classified as overrated.
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I get it, you dislike Lebron..... But the guy is really, really good. A great teammate and competitor.... He is going to be a one of the top 5 players of the NBA. Period.
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4 MVP's
3 Finals MVP's
14 All Star Games
13 All NBA Teams (11 First Teams)
Career averages of 27-7-7, .540 eFG%
After 15 seasons, he's 7th all time in points, 11th in assists, 16th in steals. He's made 7 straight NBA Finals.
He got Mo Williams an All Star appearance and Mike Brown a Coach of the Year award. I think that says it all.