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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Phantom255x on May 16, 2018, 10:01:10 AM

Title: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: Phantom255x on May 16, 2018, 10:01:10 AM
We have Jaylen Brown who IMO has the ceiling to become like Kawhi Leonard with more athleticism.

That's amazing considering I originally thought his ceiling was Jimmy Butler, but dare I say he already looks better than Jimmy Butler (or at least, at his level now with his two-way play and impact)  :o

Yes, Brown still needs to prove himself by being more consistent, but the guy has been a huge reason we're up 2-0 this series, and watching him match Lebron on the other end while Lebron was going OFF was just pure beast mode. He's just 21 years old!

And here's an amusing stat:

Quote
StatMuse
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@statmuse


Jaylen Brown has 23.0 PPG through two games this series. The record for highest PPG in a full conference finals series by a player younger than 22-years-old is Kobe Bryant's 20.4 PPG in 2000.

Obviously that average can drop and there's still the rest of the series to go, but that just shows how legit Jaylen can become.

Again.. who needs Kawhi? Ainge shouldn't be spending too much time with the Spurs FO if they call asking about interest in Kawhi.

Would Kawhi be a nice add? Absolutely. Top-5 player when healthy. But at a trade price involving 2 of Kings Pick/Brown/Tatum? LOL nope. Keep this team/core relatively intact with Kyrie and Hayward also coming back.  ;D
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: Ed Hollison on May 16, 2018, 10:09:20 AM
Brown's absolute ceiling is what Kawhi Leonard is now. But I agree with you. I wouldn't trade Brown + salary for Leonard straight up right now, because:

1) I'm not sure about Leonard's injury.
2) I"m not sure where Leonard's head is at after this weird year in San Antonio.
3) Brown is on a rookie salary for two more years, after which he can only be paid up to 25% of the cap (Leonard would be 35%).
4) Brown can defend speedy guards. He's perfect for what the Celtics want to do defensively. Leonard is a superb defender, but if you replace Brown with Leonard alongside Kyrie, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford then you've really got no SG and might struggle against the quicker backcourts in the league.

I really like Brown. Dude works his tail off and his learning curve is super steep.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: bopna on May 16, 2018, 10:13:52 AM
The only player that is worth giving up either JB or Tatum at this point is AD.

JB is indeed at the level of Butler right now this is why we arr up on the Cavs. Because offensively we are keeping up and matching their intensity and then some more.. Tatum hasn't even broken out yet and he will be due to his customary 20 point games in either games 3 or 4.

I really hope we sweep em so the lrague would finally recognize the reslience of these Celtic squad.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: Sophomore on May 16, 2018, 10:15:20 AM
Brown's absolute ceiling is what Kawhi Leonard is now. But I agree with you. I wouldn't trade Brown + salary for Leonard straight up right now, because:

1) I'm not sure about Leonard's injury.
2) I"m not sure where Leonard's head is at after this weird year in San Antonio.
3) Brown is on a rookie salary for two more years, after which he can only be paid up to 25% of the cap (Leonard would be 35%).
4) Brown can defend speedy guards. He's perfect for what the Celtics want to do defensively. Leonard is a superb defender, but if you replace Brown with Leonard alongside Kyrie, Hayward, Tatum, and Horford then you've really got no SG and might struggle against the quicker backcourts in the league.

I really like Brown. Dude works his tail off and his learning curve is super steep.

All of this. Full-strength Kawhi is the real deal - better than Jaylen is today. But we don't know if Kawhi is ever going to be full strength again, Jaylen is already really good and getting better, and he's a heck of a lot easier on our cap space.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: cman88 on May 16, 2018, 12:25:38 PM
Jaylen is also much younger. Hes 21....kawhi is 27. You have a much longer window with brown.

And if kawhi cant get along playing for pop is that the guy you want on this team?
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: CelticsElite on May 16, 2018, 12:40:27 PM
Kawhi is an overrated player. Without Duncan he doesn’t win a ring
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: cltc5 on May 16, 2018, 01:10:11 PM
Yea I’m good with what we have.  Also manageable contracts for the next few years
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: libermaniac on May 16, 2018, 01:18:52 PM
That's amazing considering I originally thought his ceiling was Jimmy Butler, but dare I say he already looks better than Jimmy Butler (or at least, at his level now with his two-way play and impact)  :o
Funny you make that comparison as I traded away Butler for Brown (and his cheaper contract and one additional year) in my keeper fantasy league.  I made that bet too.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: droopdog7 on May 16, 2018, 01:23:32 PM
We can go back and forth all day about the value, talent, and ability of Kawhi and anyone who might be traded for him from the Celts.  And I think one could easily conclude that Kawhi is better than Brown or tatum will ever be and might be worth trading for.

But unless you're willing to take a deep dive into all the ramifications, then you're discussing things blindly.  How do we match salaries, what would be the tax ramifications now and into the future, nevermind team chemistry.  These things matter more than the actual players.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: footey on May 16, 2018, 01:23:48 PM
ALOT of bloggers here put Butler as Jaylen’s ceiling. Never made sense to me since Jaylen is superior athlete. Not even close. Not to diminish high skill level of Butler though. In that regard Jaylen has more room to grow (eg free throw shooting).
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on May 16, 2018, 01:23:53 PM
Leonard is a special talent, but I've always scratched my head about the hype he gets. He is definitely a premier defensive talent in the NBA. His feel, athleticism, and drive are elite on that end.

I've always been suspect about his offense.

- His ball handling is rigid and he really doesn't have a lot of crafty moves.
- He relies on too many jumpshots for his points.
- His FTR is below average for a scorer of his level (averages .3, with a career high during last season).
- He relies too much on his athleticism to shoot over guys or to drive to the rim. There is a long list of guys who rely on their athleticism whose career falls off the cliff between 27-31.

I kinda' think Leonard has been overrated the past few years. He is probably a top 10-15 player in the NBA, but it's not like he is Kevin Durant on offense.

If, for instance, he goes to the Lakers with Lebron and/or George, I expect his scoring numbers to hover around 18-20 with elite defense for a few seasons. That is still a really good player, but not at the same level as many consider him.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: nickagneta on May 16, 2018, 01:26:53 PM
The only thing that would stop me from making a trade for Kawhi would be that his injury is degenerative and it will effect his play and availability long term.

Now I would be willing to give up Tatum rather than Brown, salary filler(like maybe a S&T Smart) and any picks they want other than Sactown.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: slamtheking on May 16, 2018, 01:40:14 PM
The only thing that would stop me from making a trade for Kawhi would be that his injury is degenerative and it will effect his play and availability long term.

Now I would be willing to give up Tatum rather than Brown, salary filler(like maybe a S&T Smart) and any picks they want other than Sactown.
I wouldn't simply from the standpoint that Brown and Tatum look to be all-star level players.  maybe neither becomes quite as good as peak-Kawhi but I don't think there's going to be a really big talent gap to justify that trade.  Also, considering we still have Hayward, we're really all set on the wing.   

If Brown or Tatum were to be traded, I would only consider one player to be an acceptable target -- Anthony Davis.  He would fill a position where we could use an upgrade and would actually be a major upgrade to whomever we play at PF/C (including Al).  I'm not saying Davis is available or compiling an actual trade that works salary wise but Davis is the only player that offers a significant enough upgrade in an area of weakness that justifies trading either Brown or Tatum.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: BringToughnessBack on May 16, 2018, 02:09:18 PM
When you consider how much Brown has evolved and improved his game in one season, it is mind-blowing. His ceiling might eventually be his own. He will only improve over the next 4-6 years, imagine who he will be then. His stats are in rarified air early into this series. He is in the ECF and shining like a veteran star on both sides of the floor.

Tatum is in his first year and is eons better then a slew of veterans. His ceiling will also be his own doing. Brown and Tatum combined will be something in five years when Hayward and Horford are expiring. We will have a ton of options and a lot of playoff history for everyone to shine brightly.

I personally, would not pick up the phone for anyone not named Davis. We have our cost controlled star rookies/young one's matched nicely with our 3 max players. Sounds like Heaven to me...oh, by the way, a ton of draft picks coming in case Danny gets the itch to shake something up down the road or maybe we luck into the 2 pick next year and some Center prospect reveals himself to Danny in a Dream.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: RockinRyA on May 16, 2018, 02:13:07 PM
Kawhi is an overrated player. Without Duncan he doesn’t win a ring

No, he is underrated. He has proven himself to be a top 5 player, yet threads like these, and posts like yours exists. He averaged 25ppg on almost 49% shooting last season while playing DPOY defense.

Its reasonable not to want him based on injury, age, cost and worry about the recent reports. EDIT: Do not insult others

BTW, do you think Lebron wouldve won a ring without Wade or Kyrie? See how your logic fails?
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: footey on May 16, 2018, 02:18:20 PM
If we can get to finals, and then compete well with Warriors, win or lose, no changes will be warranted.

If we get to the finals but get blown out by Warriors, and have no effective way to defend KD, then Danny has to consider trading for a KD defender. Is that Kawhi? I don’t know. Maybe others can tell us how he matches up defending KD. We know his history guarding Lebron. What about KD?

I thought Jaylen did decently guarding Durant in the few games he has guarded him. And his defense has only gotten better.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: liam on May 16, 2018, 02:21:24 PM
If we can get to finals, and then compete well with Warriors, win or lose, no changes will be warranted.

If we get to the finals but get blown out by Warriors, and have no effective way to defend KD, then Danny has to consider trading for a KD defender. Is that Kawhi? I don’t know. Maybe others can tell us how he matches up defending KD. We know his history guarding Lebron. What about KD?

I thought Jaylen did decently guarding Durant in the few games he has guarded him. And his defense has only gotten better.

The best defender I ever saw on KD was Tony Allen. He kept getting up into Durant and he did an excellent job. If we get that far, this year or next, I hope Brad gives Marcus Smart a tape of those KD vs Tony Allen games in the playoffs!
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: bknova on May 16, 2018, 02:24:34 PM
If we can get to finals, and then compete well with Warriors, win or lose, no changes will be warranted.

If we get to the finals but get blown out by Warriors, and have no effective way to defend KD, then Danny has to consider trading for a KD defender. Is that Kawhi? I don’t know. Maybe others can tell us how he matches up defending KD. We know his history guarding Lebron. What about KD?

I thought Jaylen did decently guarding Durant in the few games he has guarded him. And his defense has only gotten better.

Win or lose, next season we get Kyrie and Hayward back. Steph can't guard Kyrie, who is probably the second best lead guard in the league, right now, about to enter his prime.  Add in Hayward, and third year Brown and second year Tatum.  We could get swept and still not make any changes and compete with them next year.

We played 2 games against Golden State this year, both with Kyrie, won one by 5, lost one by 5.  No need to make any drastic changes.  Just no need.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: td450 on May 16, 2018, 02:40:30 PM
If we can get to finals, and then compete well with Warriors, win or lose, no changes will be warranted.

If we get to the finals but get blown out by Warriors, and have no effective way to defend KD, then Danny has to consider trading for a KD defender. Is that Kawhi? I don’t know. Maybe others can tell us how he matches up defending KD. We know his history guarding Lebron. What about KD?

I thought Jaylen did decently guarding Durant in the few games he has guarded him. And his defense has only gotten better.

Jaylen had 22 and 20 in two games against GS this season. He was so good that Draymond Green was quoted saying Brown deserved a reserve spot in the All-Star game. At that time, it sounded a bit over the top.

There was a play during one of those games that I still remember because it was so astounding. Durant took one of his standard jab step jumpers, and Jaylen cleanly blocked the shot. I've never seen anyone else ever do that to him. Not Kawhi, not LeBron, not anyone.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: bknova on May 16, 2018, 03:05:39 PM
If we can get to finals, and then compete well with Warriors, win or lose, no changes will be warranted.

If we get to the finals but get blown out by Warriors, and have no effective way to defend KD, then Danny has to consider trading for a KD defender. Is that Kawhi? I don’t know. Maybe others can tell us how he matches up defending KD. We know his history guarding Lebron. What about KD?

I thought Jaylen did decently guarding Durant in the few games he has guarded him. And his defense has only gotten better.

Jaylen had 22 and 20 in two games against GS this season. He was so good that Draymond Green was quoted saying Brown deserved a reserve spot in the All-Star game. At that time, it sounded a bit over the top.

There was a play during one of those games that I still remember because it was so astounding. Durant took one of his standard jab step jumpers, and Jaylen cleanly blocked the shot. I've never seen anyone else ever do that to him. Not Kawhi, not LeBron, not anyone.

It never ceases to amaze me how incredibly unfazed Jaylen Brown is.  I mean, he's 21 playing on the biggest stage against the players he idolized as a kid, the best in the world, and he's not the slightest bit in awe of them.  Its almost workmanlike. 
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: footey on May 16, 2018, 03:46:04 PM
If we can get to finals, and then compete well with Warriors, win or lose, no changes will be warranted.

If we get to the finals but get blown out by Warriors, and have no effective way to defend KD, then Danny has to consider trading for a KD defender. Is that Kawhi? I don’t know. Maybe others can tell us how he matches up defending KD. We know his history guarding Lebron. What about KD?

I thought Jaylen did decently guarding Durant in the few games he has guarded him. And his defense has only gotten better.

The best defender I ever saw on KD was Tony Allen. He kept getting up into Durant and he did an excellent job. If we get that far, this year or next, I hope Brad gives Marcus Smart a tape of those KD vs Tony Allen games in the playoffs!

TP. That's what I want to hear!
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: mspring on May 16, 2018, 04:02:39 PM
If we can get to finals, and then compete well with Warriors, win or lose, no changes will be warranted.

If we get to the finals but get blown out by Warriors, and have no effective way to defend KD, then Danny has to consider trading for a KD defender. Is that Kawhi? I don’t know. Maybe others can tell us how he matches up defending KD. We know his history guarding Lebron. What about KD?

I thought Jaylen did decently guarding Durant in the few games he has guarded him. And his defense has only gotten better.

Jaylen had 22 and 20 in two games against GS this season. He was so good that Draymond Green was quoted saying Brown deserved a reserve spot in the All-Star game. At that time, it sounded a bit over the top.

There was a play during one of those games that I still remember because it was so astounding. Durant took one of his standard jab step jumpers, and Jaylen cleanly blocked the shot. I've never seen anyone else ever do that to him. Not Kawhi, not LeBron, not anyone.

It never ceases to amaze me how incredibly unfazed Jaylen Brown is.  I mean, he's 21 playing on the biggest stage against the players he idolized as a kid, the best in the world, and he's not the slightest bit in awe of them.  Its almost workmanlike.

I remember when Jaylen blocked Durant's shot and I have never seen another player do that either!  I love Jayson Tatum and I love how Rozier has stepped up, but I feel like Jaylen has been flying under the radar some as far as national recognition. 

What he has done in only his second season to me has been incredible.  The main knock against him coming out of college was 1. His jump shot and 2. His decision making.  No one could deny his athleticism and defensive potential based on his athleticism, but they questioned his offensive ability, shooting and decision making.  Concerning his shooting, the improvements he has made since graduating from college are unbelievable.  Guys like the Greek Freak and Ben Simmons (although he has been in the league for less time) still have not developed their shot like Jaylen Brown already has.  In my opinion, they should be ashamed!  Ben Simmons was even quoted recently as saying he wouldn't alter his shooting form much.  Jaylen has shown an incredible work ethic and his shot is looking very good.  His decision making has vastly improved as well and he is already a very good defender.  I believe his upside is tremendous as is Jayson Tatum's.

This leads to my last point.  I believe we are in a very similar position to Golden State when they drafted Steph Curry, Draymond Green and Klay Thompson.  I remember thinking Golden State was crazy at the time when Minnesota was said to be offering Kevin Love for Klay Thompson and Golden State was not interested.  At the time I thought that was the missing piece Golden State needed as Kevin Love was a bigger name at that time.  Fast forward to what we know now about Klay Thompson and that was one of the shrewdest non moves the Warriors could have made.  They had confidence in players they drafted, kept them at lower salaries and brought in some key free agents to compliment them (Iguadola and Durant) and now a player like Klay has bought in to the Golden State way and wants to resign, even potentially at a lower than market rate. 

I believe we are in position to do the same with Smart, Rozier, Brown and Tatum when they become restricted free agents.  We are building a winning culture that I believe will make it hard for these players to want to leave.  We have invested in them, developed them and are adding key players around them, i.e. Kyrie and Hayward.  The future is bright!!!!
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: Phantom255x on May 16, 2018, 04:14:32 PM
The only thing that would stop me from making a trade for Kawhi would be that his injury is degenerative and it will effect his play and availability long term.

Now I would be willing to give up Tatum rather than Brown, salary filler(like maybe a S&T Smart) and any picks they want other than Sactown.

(https://media2.giphy.com/media/10EPwHlsBhDKDu/200.gif)
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on May 16, 2018, 04:33:09 PM
I wouldn't trade Brown or Tatum straight up for him---too many concerns-we have young GREAT players at decent money, with 3 MAX contracts on our books already--no way we give that up for a former all star, who will require $30+million a year.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: bknova on May 16, 2018, 04:40:57 PM


Here's the difference with Tatum and Brown.  Danny needed to upgrade last years team.  He needed to upgrade Isaiah to Kyrie when the opportunity arose, and he needed to add a prime asset (according to report Nets pick or Jayson Tatum) to make that happen. 

He's now built a contender ahead of schedule (this would be the Brad effect).  He no longer needs to add to the team to be a contender, he already has one.  And that now puts him in the drivers seat.  He has a contender with Tatum and Brown that works with the cap and might for years to come.  So he doesn't need to move one to become a contender. 

And that makes for a dangerous man. 

He can name his price, sit tight, and if they pass, he's still fine. I'd imagine, short of getting AD to pair with Hayward and Kyrie, he probably won't offer Tatum or Brown, cause he doesn't have to.

Here's a take on this I wrote earlier on another thread.  I don't believe we need to worry about Danny trading either of these guys for Kawhi because his contender is already in place.
Title: Re: Seriously, Who Needs Kawhi??
Post by: TheReaLPuba on May 16, 2018, 04:57:35 PM
You trade for Leonard because you upgrade from Morris to a finals MVP !

Kyrie is the most logical asset to move because he doesn’t fit our team system like IT.

If Leonard is healthy and you trade Kyrie + future first and filler (if needed) you do it.

I’m very comfortable with Hayward playing point or Tatum (after working on his handle) at the one.

Mismatch city baby.