CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: PhoSita on May 08, 2018, 11:26:35 AM
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OK, a confession. I'm probably not alone in this, but I don't particularly like LeBron.
As a celebrity personality, he seems like a good enough guy. The gravity of his presence in a franchise seems to warp and twist things over time to the point that there is organizational fatigue in dysfunction almost by default, but I can't entirely blame him for that. Like Jordan before him, he's somewhat earned it. I recognize every generational superstar can't be Tim Duncan.
On the court, he's a savant. Probably the GOAT, although there will always be an argument for Jordan, and he has to play another 5+ years at a really high level to match Kareem's longevity. It's incredible what he's doing at his age. We can mention the specter of PEDs but if he's using them I'm certain he's not alone in this league, and that doesn't invalidate what he's accomplished.
And as to the on court stuff, it's weird to find that I have such a hard time wanting to watch LeBron and enjoying it when he plays so well. I like ball movement, I like passing, I like unselfish players. LeBron isn't selfish on the court. He's elite in virtually every area and he has unsurpassed court vision and creativity. I guess I do tend to dislike that every team he's on inevitably bends toward whatever he wants to do. He is the team and the coach and the system, always. He seems to want to be surrounded by guys that don't need to make decisions with the ball. That makes his teams a little bit uninteresting to me in terms of how they play offense, despite how deadly they are.
Still, I don't think that's it. I enjoy plenty of superstars that hold the ball a lot and don't empower their teammates to do things. Not every superstar can be Al Horford or Steve Nash.
I was thinking about this in the wake of the Raptors getting smoked -- again -- by the Cavs, and I realized something that feels close to the heart of it:
LeBron makes being a serious basketball fan feel like a waste of time, at least when it comes to understanding the playoffs.
What's the point of knowing things about roster construction, cap space, threes versus twos, coaching strategies, ideal bench lineups, and so on ... when LeBron cuts through all of that and makes it very simple: Which team has LeBron?
The Raptors won close to 60 games this year. They had the point differential to match that win total. On paper they were clearly the best team in the East. They should have beaten the Cavs in 5, on paper.
Not just on paper, either. You could have looked at the tape and talked about the bevy of useful players on the Raptors. You could have talked about how they changed their offense to be more versatile and efficient. You could have talked about the intangibles of a core group of players that had played together a while, with a coach who had seen plenty in the playoffs and learned many tough lessons.
But the casual fan who never watches NBA basketball except in late April and May could have tuned in to see the score of any of the Cavs games against the Raptors and done just as good as job as you or I explaining what was happening:
LeBron.
Two years ago, the Warriors won 73 games and were the triumph of threes over twos, of building through the draft, of creative lineups. Any "smart" basketball fan would have said, no way can they lose to the Cavs, even with a Draymond suspension and a Curry injury.
LeBron flew in like a block on a layup in transition and smacked away any notion of the superiority of "smart" fans -- he was the only thing that mattered.
And you know, I don't like feeling that following the sport, paying attention to the regular season, listening to podcasts, and so on, that all of that doesn't matter at all when it comes to understanding what happens in the games that are most important.
I imagine if I'd been old enough to be a serious fan during the 90s I would've felt similarly about Jordan.
So bottom line, I think it's a vanity thing, an ego thing. It feels good to feel like investing time to understand the nerdy stuff of basketball helps to appreciate what happens in the most important games. It doesn't feel good to think that this sport in which I invest so much time and energy really can be as simple as who has LeBron on their team. Then it feels kind of frivolous and silly.
What do you think? Anybody identify with what I'm saying here?
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There have been any number of transcendent players in the NBA (Bird and Russell, for example). I've enjoyed watching them all. Even better when they've had opponents of similar stature. Lebron's a whiner to be sure, but he still one of the greatest ever and people will be talking about how great he was long after he leaves the court.
As for the Raptors, it was difficult watching them shrink, but not unexpected by me, or you I suspect.
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There have been any number of transcendent players in the NBA (Bird and Russell, for example). I've enjoyed watching them all. Even better when they've had opponents of similar stature. Lebron's a whiner to be sure, but he still one of the greatest ever and people will be talking about how great he was long after he leaves the court.
As for the Raptors, it was difficult watching them shrink, but not unexpected by me, or you I suspect.
I wasn't surprised to see the Raptors lose. I was surprised that they completely folded as though they were an 8th seed and the Cavs were a 65 win 1 seed.
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There have been any number of transcendent players in the NBA (Bird and Russell, for example). I've enjoyed watching them all. Even better when they've had opponents of similar stature. Lebron's a whiner to be sure, but he still one of the greatest ever and people will be talking about how great he was long after he leaves the court.
As for the Raptors, it was difficult watching them shrink, but not unexpected by me, or you I suspect.
I wasn't surprised to see the Raptors lose. I was surprised that they completely folded as though they were an 8th seed and the Cavs were a 65 win 1 seed.
why though? The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well. The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs. They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively. Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams. The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series). James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East. That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.
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why though? The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well. The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs. They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively. Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams. The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series). James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East. That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.
Well, this is going exactly to what I'm saying. You're suggesting that this is as simple as "LeBron is a matchup problem for the Raptors," which is another way of saying "The Raptors don't have LeBron and the Cavs do."
I guess I thought that maybe team construction and experience and coaching and all of those things might matter. Clearly that was silly.
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Despite the number one seed I have never seen Toronto as that good or as a real threat to be contenders. They just don't have all the pieces they need and Lowry, Derozan need to be 2a/2b not number 1 options.
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TP for an awesome post! I've learned to accept that LeBron is the exception to most rules when it comes to analyzing the game of basketball. My distaste for LeBron has more to do with the Jordan/GOAT argument than anything else. These four events have made it so difficult to enjoy his accomplishments.
1. "The Decision" and formation of the Big Three in Miami. How about the ridiculous introductory event? Not 1, Not 2, Not 3, Not 4, Not 5, Not 6, Not 7..........
2. His blatant fear against the Mavericks during his first NBA Finals in Miami. LeBron went beyond being "unselfish" when he deferred to teammates throughout this series. He was clearly afraid of the moment as a heavy favorite.
3. His poor attitude during press conferences throughout the 2014 Finals, where the Spurs absolutely smacked down the Heat. LeBron made everything about his stats, saying that he was shocked they were losing despite his amazing numbers.
4. Conveniently going "home" to Cleveland when the circumstances allowed him to put together a new and younger Big Three.
At the end of the day LeBron has been able to accomplish more with less than any player in NBA history. No one can ever take away the Finals win against Golden State. The flip side of the argument is that his track record as a heavy favorite is worthy of criticism, especially for a player who deserves to be included in the GOAT argument.
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I recently read that Terry Rozier grew up in a difficult situation and much of his early basketball development comes from living with his grandmother in Cleveland and playing in youth programs paid for by Lebron. This would account for Lebron praising Rozier's play and linking their Ohio connection. A nice version of Lebron's commitment to community.
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I recently read that Terry Rozier grew up in a difficult situation and much of his early basketball development comes from living with his grandmother in Cleveland and playing in youth programs paid for by Lebron. This would account for Lebron praising Rozier's play and linking their Ohio connection. A nice version of Lebron's commitment to community.
This is exactly why I keep everything within the context of basketball. There's really not much to dislike about LeBron aside from the NBA drama.
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2. His blatant fear against the Mavericks during his first NBA Finals in Miami. LeBron went beyond being "unselfish" when he deferred to teammates throughout this series. He was clearly afraid of the moment as a heavy favorite.
I actually like that LeBron struggled against the Mavericks -- a team I deeply enjoyed watching -- and then used that experience to motivate him to improve his game.
Seeing LeBron struggle and falter makes it easier to appreciate when he succeeds.
That's part of my problem with him, as well. He has had challenges in the Finals but I really dislike how he seems to cakewalk to the Finals year after year. Part of that is his greatness and part of it is the fact that most years there are 0-1 teams in the East capable of defeating him.
If LeBron had to face some more adversity -- apart from the roster construction issues on the Cavs which are largely self-inflicted -- I think I'd enjoy it more when he won.
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Interesting take. I don’t feel the same way. I enjoy watching him play when it’s purely basketball. He’s a cerebral player who also combines every possible physical gift. He could have coasted and still been a HOFer, but he maximized his talent.
What I don’t enjoy is the ego, the “King” persona, the whining, etc.
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I think the core of my dislike for Lebron is based on:
1. The absolute coddling of him by the league and referees. It's blatant that he gets away with more violations (i.e. star treatment) than anyone else in the league. He travels, palms, pushes, hacks, charges and other assorted violations that exceed what anyone else gets away with. To me, that significantly reduces his accomplishments. For full disclosure, I have that same issue with Jordan and with Shaq. Jordan had to go through Larry and Magic then Detroit before becoming the anointed one and getting the mega-star treatment during his title runs. Shaq received that anointment from the beginning when the league needed new star when Jordan first retired. Lebron has enjoyed that same treatment from when he entered the league.
2. "The Decision". Pure grandstanding and player collusion to create his own 'superteam'. sickening. May have been permitted under the rules applied to the Heat but the league should have done something about this obvious player collusion. Everything he accomplished with the Heat comes with an asterisk. Went from strictly disliking him to outright rooting for his failure. Should have had 4 titles if he was really GOAT material but the fact he could only achieve 2 even with his stacked team, and even then only as the second best player in that first title win behind Wade, diminished him in my eyes. {I will admit that the title he won in Cleveland was impressive -- he had Kyrie and Love as his teammates but that finals was where he finally 'earned' a title in my eyes}
3. His absolute domination of the franchise he plays for -- each coach and GM must kowtow to his every wish or they have to worry about either being fired or him bolting for another golden opportunity that comes along. He's a franchise cancer in the sense he holds it hostage to his desires/ambitions.
He's clearly the best player of his generation. It's not even close. He has more than enough talent to be the dominant player on the court without any help from the officials. He'd be a great player in any era but until I see him subject to the same rules as prior greats like Bird, Magic or early Jordan, I won't consider him to be in their class. The league will never go back to the application of those rules because none of the current players could pull their offensive moves without what would be called travels and palming back in the 80's.
just my 2 cents on why I don't enjoy watching Lebron nor respect his 'accomplishments'
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I think you need to re-evaluate your opinion about LeBron based on the remainder of the playoffs. It seems pretty obvious that Toronto is their own worst enemy. They have a mental hurdle they can't overcome when facing LeBron. I'm sure you remember how LeBron had that same mental hurdle with the Celtics big 3, and decided to form his own big 3 in Miami. Also, regarding Toronto, they were the number 1 seed basically because they were healthy all season, unlike Boston and Cleveland.
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Interesting take. I don’t feel the same way. I enjoy watching him play when it’s purely basketball. He’s a cerebral player who also combines every possible physical gift. He could have coasted and still been a HOFer, but he maximized his talent.
What I don’t enjoy is the ego, the “King” persona, the whining, etc.
Pretty much how I feel. On the court, he's fun to watch and certainly one of the alltime greats. It's the other crap that rubs me the wrong way.
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why though? The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well. The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs. They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively. Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams. The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series). James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East. That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.
Well, this is going exactly to what I'm saying. You're suggesting that this is as simple as "LeBron is a matchup problem for the Raptors," which is another way of saying "The Raptors don't have LeBron and the Cavs do."
I guess I thought that maybe team construction and experience and coaching and all of those things might matter. Clearly that was silly.
No I'm saying the Raptors weakest position is small forward. Take the Celtics, we can throw Brown, Tatum, Morris, Horford, etc. against Lebron defensively. That gives us a number of different looks and a number of ways to defend him. Lebron is obviously a great player and he is never easy to defend, but Boston, unlike Toronto, actually has players capable of at least making him work for it.
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2. His blatant fear against the Mavericks during his first NBA Finals in Miami. LeBron went beyond being "unselfish" when he deferred to teammates throughout this series. He was clearly afraid of the moment as a heavy favorite.
I actually like that LeBron struggled against the Mavericks -- a team I deeply enjoyed watching -- and then used that experience to motivate him to improve his game.
Seeing LeBron struggle and falter makes it easier to appreciate when he succeeds.
That's part of my problem with him, as well. He has had challenges in the Finals but I really dislike how he seems to cakewalk to the Finals year after year. Part of that is his greatness and part of it is the fact that most years there are 0-1 teams in the East capable of defeating him.
If LeBron had to face some more adversity -- apart from the roster construction issues on the Cavs which are largely self-inflicted -- I think I'd enjoy it more when he won.
All valid points. However, the Dallas and San Antonio losses leave a permanent stain on his record if we are discussing the GOAT. The constant comparison to Jordan makes it harder to enjoy the ride. It might be unfair but has LeBron had a signature late game Finals moment other than the big block against Golden State? At the end of the day Ray Allen and Kyrie hit the biggest shots in the tightest circumstances. I judge LeBron harshly because he engineered the construction of every Finals team after the loss to the Celtics in 2010.
Is LeBron the 2nd greatest of all time. Yes. Despite this I would still choose to build my team around a handful of players before him. I can't stand the vice grip that he has over his teams.
Give me Bird or Magic any day. At their best they are in the same tier and I know the pieces will fit together.
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There have been any number of transcendent players in the NBA (Bird and Russell, for example). I've enjoyed watching them all. Even better when they've had opponents of similar stature. Lebron's a whiner to be sure, but he still one of the greatest ever and people will be talking about how great he was long after he leaves the court.
As for the Raptors, it was difficult watching them shrink, but not unexpected by me, or you I suspect.
I wasn't surprised to see the Raptors lose. I was surprised that they completely folded as though they were an 8th seed and the Cavs were a 65 win 1 seed.
why though? The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well. The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs. They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively. Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams. The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series). James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East. That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.
Interesting. Assuming Celtics get by the Sixers (am taking nothing for granted), how do you see the Cavs-Celtics playing out? Cavs in 6? What would your strategy be against Lebron? Single coverage with multiple bodies, and cover the 3 point line, similar to vs the Sixers?
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The problem isn't Lebron's matchup for TOR, it's Toronto's psychological makeup. In the last 5 seasons, they've been a top 4 seed 5 times:
- Lost twice in the first round (Nets and Wizards), twice in the second, and once in the ECF.
- Swept 3 times including once in the first round. Have never swept or won in 5 games.
- Struggle against lower seeds with 3 eliminations. Have never beat a higher seed.
If they were the Cs, we'd be ripped with that record.
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I think part of it is in the DNA of being a Celtics Fan. We tend to love the Grit & Grind, being the underdog, play above expectations and succeeding. Lebron used to seem the polar opposite right from the start. Being considered the "King" before even stepping on an NBA court. That type of thing rubs most Celtics Fans the wrong way (even if he was going to be a Celtic, fans would be turned off from that). It is hard to come back from that. That coupled with the shrinking in major NBA moments and then the decision stuff is enough to make most Celtics Fans biased against him not matter what he ever did on the court. Personally, it took me forever to get past all of that. Lebron has changed his game and grown and we are not witnessing his best year ever I believe. His shot was always suspect and would almost count on clutch shots missing. We are now at the point where it is not suspect and it is terrifying seeing him shoot a game winning shot. I get what the OP is saying, there is something where I just havent enjoyed watching him play, but for a lot of years it was just the natural bias against him and the style.
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2. His blatant fear against the Mavericks during his first NBA Finals in Miami. LeBron went beyond being "unselfish" when he deferred to teammates throughout this series. He was clearly afraid of the moment as a heavy favorite.
I actually like that LeBron struggled against the Mavericks -- a team I deeply enjoyed watching -- and then used that experience to motivate him to improve his game.
Seeing LeBron struggle and falter makes it easier to appreciate when he succeeds.
That's part of my problem with him, as well. He has had challenges in the Finals but I really dislike how he seems to cakewalk to the Finals year after year. Part of that is his greatness and part of it is the fact that most years there are 0-1 teams in the East capable of defeating him.
If LeBron had to face some more adversity -- apart from the roster construction issues on the Cavs which are largely self-inflicted -- I think I'd enjoy it more when he won.
All valid points. However, the Dallas and San Antonio losses leave a permanent stain on his record if we are discussing the GOAT. The constant comparison to Jordan makes it harder to enjoy the ride. It might be unfair but has LeBron had a signature late game Finals moment other than the big block against Golden State? At the end of the day Ray Allen and Kyrie hit the biggest shots in the tightest circumstances. I judge LeBron harshly because he engineered the construction of every Finals team after the loss to the Celtics in 2010.
Is LeBron the 2nd greatest of all time. Yes. Despite this I would still choose to build my team around a handful of players before him. I can't stand the vice grip that he has over his teams.
Give me Bird or Magic any day. At their best they are in the same tier and I know the pieces will fit together.
Your argument about not having a signature Finals moment, other than the block, is a bit unfair. My Finals moment for Michael Jordan is probably his push off against Russell when they faced Utah. Other than that, all of the other big shots to end games in the Finals came for the point guards.
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I struggle wit Lebron because he lots like he was built with steroids
No facts but he looks artificial and he is going to burst.
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There have been any number of transcendent players in the NBA (Bird and Russell, for example). I've enjoyed watching them all. Even better when they've had opponents of similar stature. Lebron's a whiner to be sure, but he still one of the greatest ever and people will be talking about how great he was long after he leaves the court.
As for the Raptors, it was difficult watching them shrink, but not unexpected by me, or you I suspect.
I wasn't surprised to see the Raptors lose. I was surprised that they completely folded as though they were an 8th seed and the Cavs were a 65 win 1 seed.
why though? The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well. The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs. They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively. Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams. The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series). James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East. That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.
Interesting. Assuming Celtics get by the Sixers (am taking nothing for granted), how do you see the Cavs-Celtics playing out? Cavs in 6? What would your strategy be against Lebron? Single coverage with multiple bodies, and cover the 3 point line, similar to vs the Sixers?
I would predict the Cavs in 6 (games 1, 3, 4, and 6 to Cleveland with 2 and 5 to Boston), but wouldn't be overly surprised if Boston pulled it out. I'd start with size on Lebron and try to deny him the paint, because that is when he really gets going. So I'd probably go with Tatum and Horford to start on him, giving him different looks each time down the floor to try and confuse him. If he starts hitting from outside, I'd switch Brown on him and try to force him into double teams in the paint. Any time Morris was in, I'd have him on James to try and get a bit physical with him and in his head more. On the offensive side, I'd go to James' man as much as possible as I would want to wear him down. James is still a great defender, but he can't go full bore on both ends of the floor for a full game, so I'd just try to make him work as much as possible defensively.
At the end of the day, James is BY FAR the best player in the series, so Boston won't stop him, but just making him work on both ends of the floor hopefully he wears down a bit and doesn't shoot quite as well, leaving the door open for Boston to win a couple of games late, when Stevens vs. Lue will actually matter.
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@BenGolliver
DeMar DeRozan's worst plus/minus performances of the 2017-18 season
1. Game 4 vs. Cavs: minus-29
2. Game 3 vs. Cavs: minus-23
3. Game 2 vs. Cavs: minus-22
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Pro sit ...TP
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why though? The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well. The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs. They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively. Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams. The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series). James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East. That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.
Well, this is going exactly to what I'm saying. You're suggesting that this is as simple as "LeBron is a matchup problem for the Raptors," which is another way of saying "The Raptors don't have LeBron and the Cavs do."
I guess I thought that maybe team construction and experience and coaching and all of those things might matter. Clearly that was silly.
No I'm saying the Raptors weakest position is small forward. Take the Celtics, we can throw Brown, Tatum, Morris, Horford, etc. against Lebron defensively. That gives us a number of different looks and a number of ways to defend him. Lebron is obviously a great player and he is never easy to defend, but Boston, unlike Toronto, actually has players capable of at least making him work for it.
Who did the Pacers have at small forward? Bojan Bogdanovic?
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why though? The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well. The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs. They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively. Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams. The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series). James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East. That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.
Well, this is going exactly to what I'm saying. You're suggesting that this is as simple as "LeBron is a matchup problem for the Raptors," which is another way of saying "The Raptors don't have LeBron and the Cavs do."
I guess I thought that maybe team construction and experience and coaching and all of those things might matter. Clearly that was silly.
No I'm saying the Raptors weakest position is small forward. Take the Celtics, we can throw Brown, Tatum, Morris, Horford, etc. against Lebron defensively. That gives us a number of different looks and a number of ways to defend him. Lebron is obviously a great player and he is never easy to defend, but Boston, unlike Toronto, actually has players capable of at least making him work for it.
Who did the Pacers have at small forward? Bojan Bogdanovic?
Young and Stephenson were on James most of the time. Bojan was generally guarding shooters like Korver.
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This is a league problem. They construct the narrative and few people care to or acknowledge that it happens. It’ll be golden state vs Cleveland. Doesn’t matter how sucky either is, they both have the star power. Next year if lebron is out west the story will be lebron vs golden state and the east will be the revenge of the Celtics. The good new is as long as the Celtics are the darlings, they’ll be in the finals and probably win one. Sadly, this is not what basketball is about. It’s about the best on that given night. The pacers shoulda probably beat the Cavs and Boston shoulda swept the sixers, but money talks and that’s the point of the NBA until lebron leaves...which cant happens soon enough. I could appreciate him more if he played the game with some integrity.
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Young and Stephenson were on James most of the time. Bojan was generally guarding shooters like Korver.
Well, I'd say that your theory is about to be put to the test, assuming the Celts take care of business with Philadelphia.
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Following NBA basketball with Lebron James is like following NASCAR when there's one particular car that's faster, accelerates better, and somehow never breaks down year after year after year. That would get boring too.
One thing that younger people might not realize is that Lebron wasn't always quite like this. Coming into the league he was a great talent and extremely physically gifted, but not like this. He has changed over time. The dude is now 33, just led the entire league in minutes played (and basically doesn't come off the floor in the playoffs), and mysteriously is the most athletic player on every court he graces, even while playing among the best conditioned athletes on the planet.
Most of why I don't enjoy watching him play is the same reason why sports has lost some of its luster as I've gotten older. There is so much money at stake now that nothing hasn't been dirtied. Every major media outlet has a stake in the Lebron empire, they are all at the teat. Similarly, there is no monetary incentive whatsoever for the league office to improve drug testing, given that its superstars are performing at near superhuman levels. To get serious would end the spectacle.
It's not just basketball, of course. Al Jazeera, which has nothing to do with sports (and is thus insulated from the corrupting influence of sports revenues in its journalism) discovered HGH being mailed to Peyton Manning's house under his wife's name. Manning had just set the single season touchdown record at age 37, a year after having two vertebrae in his neck fused together and people wondering if he'd ever play again. The dominant story in the news media? That Al Jazeera lacks credibility, that this was a smear job and an invasion of privacy, and that Manning is telling the truth. Nothing to see here.
Do I know for sure that something's amiss with Lebron, or for that matter Westbrook, or Giannis, or countless other guys? No. I also don't know for sure that there's something fishy about NBA officiating. All I know is that a crooked ref some years ago, who was eventually put in prison for betting on and rigging games, suspiciously made hundreds of phone calls at curious times to another referee, and that this other referee is universally derided by players for how bad he is, and yet this other referee somehow ends up officiating key games in the playoffs when lots of revenue is riding on whether or not the series can be extended.
Maybe I'm being unfair to Lebron in particular, but in some ways I feel he is emblematic of how our culture has changed. He is the antithesis of Bill Russell in almost every sense, a perennial winner and fierce competitor who was dwarfed in stature by Wilt, yet remained keenly focused on team basketball and won a championship in [dang] near every season he played. All of the principles embodied by Russell's career are absent with Lebron, who barely pays lip service to the concept of the team, who scorches the earth everywhere he goes before moving on somewhere else, and talks endlessly about his personal legacy.
Ok, I'm done.
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So basically what you're saying is you don't like him because he's good. I mean, that happens to pretty much all great players.
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So basically what you're saying is you don't like him because he's good. I mean, that happens to pretty much all great players.
Yeah, that's a totally nuanced reading of what I said.
But seriously, I loved Tim Duncan, who was also great. The Warriors are great, and win everything, but I like them too. I guess they just don't seem to break all the rules of what seems like it should matter when it comes to what constitutes "good basketball."
Anyway, I didn't intend this post as a criticism of LeBron or his game. Just a reflection on the fan experience, I guess.
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My problems with him are simple:
Instead of building something in Cleveland, he ran off to Wade. Then he came back to Cleveland after Wade and Bosh were finished and joined a set squad. Now he's going to leave and join another set squad. He's a follower.
It doesn't take much listening to him to know that he's just an obnoxious person. How many times has there been drama on a LeBron James team? It seems like EVERY YEAR. He's the only common denominator. Exit interviews confirm this. Michael and Kobe were toxic as well... because they were ruthless competitors and demanded nothing less than excellence. LeBron is a pretend ruthless competitor. He's just toxic because he's mentally a teenager. He just enjoys drama.
- he complains way too much
Seriously... has this guy never actually fouled anyone? Has he never turned the ball over and it's just his fault? Has he never had a good enough team? Every game he gets 1 or 2 fouls and he has the most confused look on his face. Bro, it's basketball. People move fast. Sometimes you go for the ball and they change directions. It happens all the time. Yeah, we get it... Isaiah Thomas sucks in an ISO offense when he isn't the ISO guy. It doesn't mean that you just don't cross half court and sit there and watch while pouting that someone else has the ball.
How many times has an NBA analyst criticized him over basketball related things and he responds with something stupid like "you're just a hater" "my life is better than yours." Stephen A Smith has a disclaimer now every time he has to critique LeBron. It says something like "Breaking News: LeBron is a great father, great husband, great person, etc." because the guy goes mental if he's ever criticized.
He's supposed to be the best basketball player. Yet, how confident are you that he will win this year? Or any year? Not that much. Doesn't it always seem to be the case that he somehow stumbles into the Finals? Do you think that Michael would have allowed a round 1 Game 7 against these Pacers to be decided by a couple points? With Michael, there was always a constant: he was going to win. I never had a doubt in my mind in any year during the 90s.
Sorry, should have started with this. I cannot like any NBA player that isn't on the Celtics.
[/list]
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Lebron James the guy is someone respectable. We don't know of any real controversies, no criminal behavior, he's a great dad, a philanthropist, and a genuinely good guy.
"King" James is a Edited. Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. who has been anointed and coddled his whole career because the NBA was desperately searching for their next MJ. There isn't a sane basketball fan that can look at him as a player and say he hasn't benefited more from the refs than any other player in NBA history. He's 6'8 275 yet he's the single softest superstar the NBA has ever seen physically and mentally. He's a product of the modern NBA where you can't touch him or it's a foul yet he can get away with anything he wants on defense (And as we saw it cost the Pacers a first round victory over the Cavs). He's a frontrunner in that if the game is tied (with no way to lose on a miss) or they're up by 5 he has no issues taking a "big" shot. If there's a chance to lose by missing he tucks til and runs from the moment. And speaking of tucking tail and running, he left a 60+ win team because he couldn't beat an aging, veteran Celtics team to go join Wade and Bosh in their primes. Bird never called MJ and Barkley to help him beat Magic. Magic never called them to beat Bird. If he's gonna be viewed on the same level as the all-time greats then being a quitter and a coward automatically disqualifies him from that discussion. The flopping, the whining, the faking injuries, the leaving playoff games because of cramps when other greats played through MUCH WORSE injuries than that. I could keep going but I'd like to get to sleep at some point.
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Following NBA basketball with Lebron James is like following NASCAR when there's one particular car that's faster, accelerates better, and somehow never breaks down year after year after year. That would get boring too.
One thing that younger people might not realize is that Lebron wasn't always quite like this. Coming into the league he was a great talent and extremely physically gifted, but not like this. He has changed over time. The dude is now 33, just led the entire league in minutes played (and basically doesn't come off the floor in the playoffs), and mysteriously is the most athletic player on every court he graces, even while playing among the best conditioned athletes on the planet.
Most of why I don't enjoy watching him play is the same reason why sports has lost some of its luster as I've gotten older. There is so much money at stake now that nothing hasn't been dirtied. Every major media outlet has a stake in the Lebron empire, they are all at the teat. Similarly, there is no monetary incentive whatsoever for the league office to improve drug testing, given that its superstars are performing at near superhuman levels. To get serious would end the spectacle.
It's not just basketball, of course. Al Jazeera, which has nothing to do with sports (and is thus insulated from the corrupting influence of sports revenues in its journalism) discovered HGH being mailed to Peyton Manning's house under his wife's name. Manning had just set the single season touchdown record at age 37, a year after having two vertebrae in his neck fused together and people wondering if he'd ever play again. The dominant story in the news media? That Al Jazeera lacks credibility, that this was a smear job and an invasion of privacy, and that Manning is telling the truth. Nothing to see here.
Do I know for sure that something's amiss with Lebron, or for that matter Westbrook, or Giannis, or countless other guys? No. I also don't know for sure that there's something fishy about NBA officiating. All I know is that a crooked ref some years ago, who was eventually put in prison for betting on and rigging games, suspiciously made hundreds of phone calls at curious times to another referee, and that this other referee is universally derided by players for how bad he is, and yet this other referee somehow ends up officiating key games in the playoffs when lots of revenue is riding on whether or not the series can be extended.
Maybe I'm being unfair to Lebron in particular, but in some ways I feel he is emblematic of how our culture has changed. He is the antithesis of Bill Russell in almost every sense, a perennial winner and fierce competitor who was dwarfed in stature by Wilt, yet remained keenly focused on team basketball and won a championship in [dang] near every season he played. All of the principles embodied by Russell's career are absent with Lebron, who barely pays lip service to the concept of the team, who scorches the earth everywhere he goes before moving on somewhere else, and talks endlessly about his personal legacy.
Ok, I'm done.
Definitely some valid food for thought here....
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Lebron James the guy is someone respectable. We don't know of any real controversies, no criminal behavior, he's a great dad, a philanthropist, and a genuinely good guy.
"King" James is a **** who has been anointed and coddled his whole career because the NBA was desperately searching for their next MJ. There isn't a sane basketball fan that can look at him as a player and say he hasn't benefited more from the refs than any other player in NBA history. He's 6'8 275 yet he's the single softest superstar the NBA has ever seen physically and mentally. He's a product of the modern NBA where you can't touch him or it's a foul yet he can get away with anything he wants on defense (And as we saw it cost the Pacers a first round victory over the Cavs). He's a frontrunner in that if the game is tied (with no way to lose on a miss) or they're up by 5 he has no issues taking a "big" shot. If there's a chance to lose by missing he tucks til and runs from the moment. And speaking of tucking tail and running, he left a 60+ win team because he couldn't beat an aging, veteran Celtics team to go join Wade and Bosh in their primes. Bird never called MJ and Barkley to help him beat Magic. Magic never called them to beat Bird. If he's gonna be viewed on the same level as the all-time greats then being a quitter and a coward automatically disqualifies him from that discussion. The flopping, the whining, the faking injuries, the leaving playoff games because of cramps when other greats played through MUCH WORSE injuries than that. I could keep going but I'd like to get to sleep at some point.
Lol, agree. King James is absolutely insufferable
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2. His blatant fear against the Mavericks during his first NBA Finals in Miami. LeBron went beyond being "unselfish" when he deferred to teammates throughout this series. He was clearly afraid of the moment as a heavy favorite.
I actually like that LeBron struggled against the Mavericks -- a team I deeply enjoyed watching -- and then used that experience to motivate him to improve his game.
Seeing LeBron struggle and falter makes it easier to appreciate when he succeeds.
That's part of my problem with him, as well. He has had challenges in the Finals but I really dislike how he seems to cakewalk to the Finals year after year. Part of that is his greatness and part of it is the fact that most years there are 0-1 teams in the East capable of defeating him.
If LeBron had to face some more adversity -- apart from the roster construction issues on the Cavs which are largely self-inflicted -- I think I'd enjoy it more when he won.
All valid points. However, the Dallas and San Antonio losses leave a permanent stain on his record if we are discussing the GOAT. The constant comparison to Jordan makes it harder to enjoy the ride. It might be unfair but has LeBron had a signature late game Finals moment other than the big block against Golden State? At the end of the day Ray Allen and Kyrie hit the biggest shots in the tightest circumstances. I judge LeBron harshly because he engineered the construction of every Finals team after the loss to the Celtics in 2010.
Is LeBron the 2nd greatest of all time. Yes. Despite this I would still choose to build my team around a handful of players before him. I can't stand the vice grip that he has over his teams.
Give me Bird or Magic any day. At their best they are in the same tier and I know the pieces will fit together.
Your argument about not having a signature Finals moment, other than the block, is a bit unfair. My Finals moment for Michael Jordan is probably his push off against Russell when they faced Utah. Other than that, all of the other big shots to end games in the Finals came for the point guards.
It's absolutely unfair in any context with the exception of the Jordan comparison. LeBron has referenced his desire to catch Jordan multiple times. Every detail counts in the GOAT debate. That being said, I can't dispute LeBron's clutch ability in any other context. His longevity is also superhuman.
As for Jordan, you are missing some big time late game moments from his NBA Finals career.
Game 3 of the 1991 Finals - Jordan hits the game tying shot to force OT. Bulls took a 2-1 lead in the series
Game 1 of the 1997 Finals - Jordan hits a buzzer beater over Russell to win the game
Game 5 of the 1997 Finals - Jordan hits a go ahead 3 with 25 seconds left in the legendary "flu game"
Game 6 of the 1997 Finals - Jordan passes out of a double team to hit a wide open Kerr near the free throw line. He set up an extremely high percentage shot for Kerr. I would give LeBron the same credit if he made the play. It was a championship winning assist.
Game 1 of the 1998 Finals - Jordan assists on the game tying pass to Luc Longley. It was an awesome play in traffic by Jordan.
Game 6 of the 1998 Finals - You already referenced this moment. Don't forget that Jordan also came up with a big steal to set up the final shot over Russell.
Jordan literally scored or assisted on 5 NBA Finals winning/tying plays in the two series against Utah. Then there's his 6-0 Finals record without going to a game 7 in any playoff series during that stretch.
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I’m on board with James the basketball player being insufferable. Agree with the whining and legacy talk and all of that. But the thing that bugs me the most is how super concious he is of how every single thing he says or does will look on the cameras. Every time he looks at a replay on the monitor it’s calulated. Every time he was fouled and he keeps touching his face and then acting like he’s looking for blood it’s calculated. Every time he celebrates on the bench it’s calculated. When he hit the game winner the other night and stood posing on the scorers table like a moron it was calculated. Everything he says in a press conference is Lebron trying to fake being more humble than he really is.
Given that I really dislike Lebron the basketball person, I really like to watch him play against teams that I like. He’s a great villain. I get a lot more excited to watch the Celtics play Cleveland than just about any other team in the league simply because I want them to beat Lebron. It’s not even really about the Cavs as a whole. I just want Lebron to lose.
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2. His blatant fear against the Mavericks during his first NBA Finals in Miami. LeBron went beyond being "unselfish" when he deferred to teammates throughout this series. He was clearly afraid of the moment as a heavy favorite.
I actually like that LeBron struggled against the Mavericks -- a team I deeply enjoyed watching -- and then used that experience to motivate him to improve his game.
Seeing LeBron struggle and falter makes it easier to appreciate when he succeeds.
That's part of my problem with him, as well. He has had challenges in the Finals but I really dislike how he seems to cakewalk to the Finals year after year. Part of that is his greatness and part of it is the fact that most years there are 0-1 teams in the East capable of defeating him.
If LeBron had to face some more adversity -- apart from the roster construction issues on the Cavs which are largely self-inflicted -- I think I'd enjoy it more when he won.
All valid points. However, the Dallas and San Antonio losses leave a permanent stain on his record if we are discussing the GOAT. The constant comparison to Jordan makes it harder to enjoy the ride. It might be unfair but has LeBron had a signature late game Finals moment other than the big block against Golden State? At the end of the day Ray Allen and Kyrie hit the biggest shots in the tightest circumstances. I judge LeBron harshly because he engineered the construction of every Finals team after the loss to the Celtics in 2010.
Is LeBron the 2nd greatest of all time. Yes. Despite this I would still choose to build my team around a handful of players before him. I can't stand the vice grip that he has over his teams.
Give me Bird or Magic any day. At their best they are in the same tier and I know the pieces will fit together.
Your argument about not having a signature Finals moment, other than the block, is a bit unfair. My Finals moment for Michael Jordan is probably his push off against Russell when they faced Utah. Other than that, all of the other big shots to end games in the Finals came for the point guards.
It's absolutely unfair in any context with the exception of the Jordan comparison. LeBron has referenced his desire to catch Jordan multiple times. Every detail counts in the GOAT debate. That being said, I can't dispute LeBron's clutch ability in any other context. His longevity is also superhuman.
As for Jordan, you are missing some big time late game moments from his NBA Finals career.
Game 3 of the 1991 Finals - Jordan hits the game tying shot to force OT. Bulls took a 2-1 lead in the series
Game 1 of the 1997 Finals - Jordan hits a buzzer beater over Russell to win the game
Game 5 of the 1997 Finals - Jordan hits a go ahead 3 with 25 seconds left in the legendary "flu game"
Game 6 of the 1997 Finals - Jordan passes out of a double team to hit a wide open Kerr near the free throw line. He set up an extremely high percentage shot for Kerr. I would give LeBron the same credit if he made the play. It was a championship winning assist.
Game 1 of the 1998 Finals - Jordan assists on the game tying pass to Luc Longley. It was an awesome play in traffic by Jordan.
Game 6 of the 1998 Finals - You already referenced this moment. Don't forget that Jordan also came up with a big steal to set up the final shot over Russell.
Jordan literally scored or assisted on 5 NBA Finals winning/tying plays in the two series against Utah. Then there's his 6-0 Finals record without going to a game 7 in any playoff series during that stretch.
Bulls had two series go 7 games in those seasons. Jordan was 6 of 15 in going to Finals. It is quite silly to ignore the 9 seasons he ended as a loser and didn't even make the Finals.
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I struggle to appreciate lebron game is because I think he has been on a steady supply of hgh since early in his career. And the nba knows this but turns a blind eye due to his star ammasing revenue
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Following NBA basketball with Lebron James is like following NASCAR when there's one particular car that's faster, accelerates better, and somehow never breaks down year after year after year. That would get boring too.
One thing that younger people might not realize is that Lebron wasn't always quite like this. Coming into the league he was a great talent and extremely physically gifted, but not like this. He has changed over time. The dude is now 33, just led the entire league in minutes played (and basically doesn't come off the floor in the playoffs), and mysteriously is the most athletic player on every court he graces, even while playing among the best conditioned athletes on the planet.
Most of why I don't enjoy watching him play is the same reason why sports has lost some of its luster as I've gotten older. There is so much money at stake now that nothing hasn't been dirtied. Every major media outlet has a stake in the Lebron empire, they are all at the teat. Similarly, there is no monetary incentive whatsoever for the league office to improve drug testing, given that its superstars are performing at near superhuman levels. To get serious would end the spectacle.
It's not just basketball, of course. Al Jazeera, which has nothing to do with sports (and is thus insulated from the corrupting influence of sports revenues in its journalism) discovered HGH being mailed to Peyton Manning's house under his wife's name. Manning had just set the single season touchdown record at age 37, a year after having two vertebrae in his neck fused together and people wondering if he'd ever play again. The dominant story in the news media? That Al Jazeera lacks credibility, that this was a smear job and an invasion of privacy, and that Manning is telling the truth. Nothing to see here.
Do I know for sure that something's amiss with Lebron, or for that matter Westbrook, or Giannis, or countless other guys? No. I also don't know for sure that there's something fishy about NBA officiating. All I know is that a crooked ref some years ago, who was eventually put in prison for betting on and rigging games, suspiciously made hundreds of phone calls at curious times to another referee, and that this other referee is universally derided by players for how bad he is, and yet this other referee somehow ends up officiating key games in the playoffs when lots of revenue is riding on whether or not the series can be extended.
Maybe I'm being unfair to Lebron in particular, but in some ways I feel he is emblematic of how our culture has changed. He is the antithesis of Bill Russell in almost every sense, a perennial winner and fierce competitor who was dwarfed in stature by Wilt, yet remained keenly focused on team basketball and won a championship in [dang] near every season he played. All of the principles embodied by Russell's career are absent with Lebron, who barely pays lip service to the concept of the team, who scorches the earth everywhere he goes before moving on somewhere else, and talks endlessly about his personal legacy.
Ok, I'm done.
A lot of good points in your post, and in other posts in this thread—the Decision, for example, and the mysterious nature of how he's never suffered a significant injury, and seems to be getting better at an age when players are usually declining (oddly reminiscent of Barry Bonds).
But there's something else that annoys me, that I haven't seen mentioned here, and that relates to Russell: Several years back, LeBron switched from wearing No. 23, out of respect to Michael Jordan ... but he switched to No. 6, which was worn by Russell. To me, that displayed an AMAZING amount of ignorance and disrespect.
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2. His blatant fear against the Mavericks during his first NBA Finals in Miami. LeBron went beyond being "unselfish" when he deferred to teammates throughout this series. He was clearly afraid of the moment as a heavy favorite.
I actually like that LeBron struggled against the Mavericks -- a team I deeply enjoyed watching -- and then used that experience to motivate him to improve his game.
Seeing LeBron struggle and falter makes it easier to appreciate when he succeeds.
That's part of my problem with him, as well. He has had challenges in the Finals but I really dislike how he seems to cakewalk to the Finals year after year. Part of that is his greatness and part of it is the fact that most years there are 0-1 teams in the East capable of defeating him.
If LeBron had to face some more adversity -- apart from the roster construction issues on the Cavs which are largely self-inflicted -- I think I'd enjoy it more when he won.
All valid points. However, the Dallas and San Antonio losses leave a permanent stain on his record if we are discussing the GOAT. The constant comparison to Jordan makes it harder to enjoy the ride. It might be unfair but has LeBron had a signature late game Finals moment other than the big block against Golden State? At the end of the day Ray Allen and Kyrie hit the biggest shots in the tightest circumstances. I judge LeBron harshly because he engineered the construction of every Finals team after the loss to the Celtics in 2010.
Is LeBron the 2nd greatest of all time. Yes. Despite this I would still choose to build my team around a handful of players before him. I can't stand the vice grip that he has over his teams.
Give me Bird or Magic any day. At their best they are in the same tier and I know the pieces will fit together.
Your argument about not having a signature Finals moment, other than the block, is a bit unfair. My Finals moment for Michael Jordan is probably his push off against Russell when they faced Utah. Other than that, all of the other big shots to end games in the Finals came for the point guards.
It's absolutely unfair in any context with the exception of the Jordan comparison. LeBron has referenced his desire to catch Jordan multiple times. Every detail counts in the GOAT debate. That being said, I can't dispute LeBron's clutch ability in any other context. His longevity is also superhuman.
As for Jordan, you are missing some big time late game moments from his NBA Finals career.
Game 3 of the 1991 Finals - Jordan hits the game tying shot to force OT. Bulls took a 2-1 lead in the series
Game 1 of the 1997 Finals - Jordan hits a buzzer beater over Russell to win the game
Game 5 of the 1997 Finals - Jordan hits a go ahead 3 with 25 seconds left in the legendary "flu game"
Game 6 of the 1997 Finals - Jordan passes out of a double team to hit a wide open Kerr near the free throw line. He set up an extremely high percentage shot for Kerr. I would give LeBron the same credit if he made the play. It was a championship winning assist.
Game 1 of the 1998 Finals - Jordan assists on the game tying pass to Luc Longley. It was an awesome play in traffic by Jordan.
Game 6 of the 1998 Finals - You already referenced this moment. Don't forget that Jordan also came up with a big steal to set up the final shot over Russell.
Jordan literally scored or assisted on 5 NBA Finals winning/tying plays in the two series against Utah. Then there's his 6-0 Finals record without going to a game 7 in any playoff series during that stretch.
Bulls had two series go 7 games in those seasons. Jordan was 6 of 15 in going to Finals. It is quite silly to ignore the 9 seasons he ended as a loser and didn't even make the Finals.
Jordan was incredible will never be another one like him. Lebron can catch kobe in rings still though! Tht would be something cause kobe had some great teammates
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I struggle to appreciate lebron game is because I think he has been on a steady supply of hgh since early in his career. And the nba knows this but turns a blind eye due to his star ammasing revenue
I am surprised how often I see this. I guess More people think this than I thought. The main thing that ever raised my eye brow was the growth on his jaw. That was... weird
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why though? The Raptors were swept by the Cavs last year and beaten fairly easily the year before by Cleveland as well. The Raptors just aren't built to beat the Cavs. They just don't match up well with them and they have no one that can even bother James defensively. Basketball is a game of match-ups and certain teams are just poor match-ups for other teams. The Pacers and the Celtics match-up much better against the Cavs then the Raptors do (the Sixers do as well, but let's hope we don't get to see that series). James dominance over the East is an Eastern Conference match-up problem and just generally a result of the overall lack of transcendent players in the East. That doesn't exist in the West and the Finals results reflect that fact.
Well, this is going exactly to what I'm saying. You're suggesting that this is as simple as "LeBron is a matchup problem for the Raptors," which is another way of saying "The Raptors don't have LeBron and the Cavs do."
I guess I thought that maybe team construction and experience and coaching and all of those things might matter. Clearly that was silly.
Which makes me wonder. Would you rather have Smart and Rozier or Lowry and Derozan? Lowry and Derozan are great for today's NBA, both can create with the ball, and are on paper high value players.
On the other hand, Smart is the opposite of an advanced stats darling, while Rozier is a bit of a tweener. That said, in the fourth quarter, or on the brink of elimination, they would make huge plays. In contrast, you have the Raptors, who have on numerous occasions choked - and choked especially hard this year.
I guess the obvious answer would be Smart and Rozier on reasonable contracts are far better value than Derozan and Lowry...but I guess this also brings up the fact that Derozan and Lowry probably aren't worth near-max contracts...whereas someone like Jimmy Butler, who is the absolute opposite of mentally weak, and has completely lifted the Wolves this year on all facets, despite if I recall correctly a down year on paper... is absolutely worth one...
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I struggle to appreciate lebron game is because I think he has been on a steady supply of hgh since early in his career. And the nba knows this but turns a blind eye due to his star ammasing revenue
I am surprised how often I see this. I guess More people think this than I thought. The main thing that ever raised my eye brow was the growth on his jaw. That was... weird
Weird is putting it lightly.
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Following NBA basketball with Lebron James is like following NASCAR when there's one particular car that's faster, accelerates better, and somehow never breaks down year after year after year. That would get boring too.
One thing that younger people might not realize is that Lebron wasn't always quite like this. Coming into the league he was a great talent and extremely physically gifted, but not like this. He has changed over time. The dude is now 33, just led the entire league in minutes played (and basically doesn't come off the floor in the playoffs), and mysteriously is the most athletic player on every court he graces, even while playing among the best conditioned athletes on the planet.
Most of why I don't enjoy watching him play is the same reason why sports has lost some of its luster as I've gotten older. There is so much money at stake now that nothing hasn't been dirtied. Every major media outlet has a stake in the Lebron empire, they are all at the teat. Similarly, there is no monetary incentive whatsoever for the league office to improve drug testing, given that its superstars are performing at near superhuman levels. To get serious would end the spectacle.
It's not just basketball, of course. Al Jazeera, which has nothing to do with sports (and is thus insulated from the corrupting influence of sports revenues in its journalism) discovered HGH being mailed to Peyton Manning's house under his wife's name. Manning had just set the single season touchdown record at age 37, a year after having two vertebrae in his neck fused together and people wondering if he'd ever play again. The dominant story in the news media? That Al Jazeera lacks credibility, that this was a smear job and an invasion of privacy, and that Manning is telling the truth. Nothing to see here.
Do I know for sure that something's amiss with Lebron, or for that matter Westbrook, or Giannis, or countless other guys? No. I also don't know for sure that there's something fishy about NBA officiating. All I know is that a crooked ref some years ago, who was eventually put in prison for betting on and rigging games, suspiciously made hundreds of phone calls at curious times to another referee, and that this other referee is universally derided by players for how bad he is, and yet this other referee somehow ends up officiating key games in the playoffs when lots of revenue is riding on whether or not the series can be extended.
Maybe I'm being unfair to Lebron in particular, but in some ways I feel he is emblematic of how our culture has changed. He is the antithesis of Bill Russell in almost every sense, a perennial winner and fierce competitor who was dwarfed in stature by Wilt, yet remained keenly focused on team basketball and won a championship in [dang] near every season he played. All of the principles embodied by Russell's career are absent with Lebron, who barely pays lip service to the concept of the team, who scorches the earth everywhere he goes before moving on somewhere else, and talks endlessly about his personal legacy.
Ok, I'm done.
Definitely some valid food for thought here....
As a person brought up in a Chinese society I can definitely see how the NBA "rigs" it, it's definitely plausible to me. The refs thing is never going to be fixed though because you're risking p---ing off the entire gambling industry and its "affiliates", if you know what I mean.
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I struggle to appreciate lebron game is because I think he has been on a steady supply of hgh since early in his career. And the nba knows this but turns a blind eye due to his star ammasing revenue
I am surprised how often I see this. I guess More people think this than I thought. The main thing that ever raised my eye brow was the growth on his jaw. That was... weird
Weird is putting it lightly.
Acromegaly, a common side effect of long term HGH use. Especially when u consider the fact that he has never had ANY minor-lagging injuries that most players have to deal with after playing as many minutes that he has his entire career. Basketball players use PEDs too. And when league continues to generate billions from his stardom, why would they intervene? NBA is a business
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Every detail counts in the GOAT debate.
[/quote]
some more data
Every detail counts in the GOAT department
Jordan' Bulls
Number of All Stars
1991 Bulls 1 , Playoff opponents 76ers 2, Pistons 2, Lakers 2
1992 Bulls 2, Playoff opponents Cavs 2
1993 Bulls 2, Playoff opponents Cavs 3
1996 Bulls 2 , Playoff opponents Magic 2, Sonics 2
1997 Bulls 2 , Playoff opponents Hawks 2, Heat 2, Jazz 2
1998 Bulls 1 , Playoff opponents Nets 1,Hornets 1, Pacers 2,Jazz 1
James Teams
Number of All Stars
2012 Heat 3 , Playoff opponents Knicks 1, Pacers 1, Celtics 2, Thunder 2
2013 Heat 3 , Playoff opponents Bucks 0 , Bulls 2, Pacers 1 , Spurs 2
2016 Cavs 1 , Playoff opponents Pistons 1 , hawks 2, Raptors 2 , Warriors 3.
So Jordan had to face off against at least one squad with more all stars in their lineups his first, third titles and his 6th title and equal all stars his 2nd ,4th and 5th titles.
James Heat Team never had to face off against an equal number of all star players in their 2 titles. A little bit embarrassing that they had to go 7 games against the Pacers in 2013 3 All Stars to 1.
The only time he got the job done was 2016.
James has the most turnovers in playoff history and most missed 3's in playoff history to boot.
More fun facts
To be clear and for the record this is what you can do to prove a point without using context and cherry pick data that is 100% correct.The posters who continually do this drag the overall quality of this forum down , whether it is deliberate or not , they really should stop for the good of this great forum.
Cheers.
I apologize to the OP for going off the theme of this thread.
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TP for those stats! I'm assuming you were referring to me in regard to cherry picking data. If so, I was merely using the 6-0 Finals record and clutch moments as a reflection of Jordan's absolute apex in comparison to LeBron. It's not the only reasoning as to why I favor Jordan. We could easily flip this argument on its head and find data to support James.
At the end of the day the entire debate is subjective. Some people will place more value on the sustained dominance of LeBron as the games best player. In terms of accomplishments and longevity it would be fair to argue that Kareem is the GOAT. Anyways, thank you for taking the time to post that.
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That's funny bcs the reason I'm OK with Lebron is he's never been as dominant as Jordan in the finals.
I bandwagoned Utah in the 90s playoffs, these two finals were beyond frustrating.
Regarding character, I think there is really an issue there, and LBJ's stardom is hardly an excuse. I can't imagine another star doing what LBJ did to Blatt. But if he wants to weaken his own team, he's more than welcome.
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TP for those stats! I'm assuming you were referring to me in regard to cherry picking data. If so, I was merely using the 6-0 Finals record and clutch moments as a reflection of Jordan's absolute apex in comparison to LeBron. It's not the only reasoning as to why I favor Jordan. We could easily flip this argument on its head and find data to support James.
At the end of the day the entire debate is subjective. In terms of accomplishments and longevity it would be fair to argue that Kareem is the GOAT. Anyways, thank you for taking the time to post that.
[/quote]
No i wasn't referring to you as cherry picking data, sorry i wasn't clear on that.
Just getting some thoughts of my chest in general.
Cheers
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I don't like him because he is not a Celtic and I live in Ohio and have to hear all the nonsense all the time about him being the GOAT. I think he is most productive player of all time. His win loss records in the finals to me, makes him not the greatest ever. Still a great player, though.
I am hoping he switches teams because I will love it when people gnash their teeth and pull out their hair.
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Mostly because of The Decision, he'll always be LeBUM to me.
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I can't tolerate watching this beta whiner play. Don't plan on watching any game of his that doesn't involve the Celtics.
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I can't tolerate watching this beta whiner play. Don't plan on watching any game of his that doesn't involve the Celtics.
I'm proud to say that I didn't watch one single second of the Finals last year. Not gonna waste my time watching the King of Whining or the Ringchaser and Jerky Draymond.
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Every detail counts in the GOAT debate.
some more data
Every detail counts in the GOAT department
Jordan' Bulls
Number of All Stars
1991 Bulls 1 , Playoff opponents 76ers 2, Pistons 2, Lakers 2
1992 Bulls 2, Playoff opponents Cavs 2
1993 Bulls 2, Playoff opponents Cavs 3
1996 Bulls 2 , Playoff opponents Magic 2, Sonics 2
1997 Bulls 2 , Playoff opponents Hawks 2, Heat 2, Jazz 2
1998 Bulls 1 , Playoff opponents Nets 1,Hornets 1, Pacers 2,Jazz 1
James Teams
Number of All Stars
2012 Heat 3 , Playoff opponents Knicks 1, Pacers 1, Celtics 2, Thunder 2
2013 Heat 3 , Playoff opponents Bucks 0 , Bulls 2, Pacers 1 , Spurs 2
2016 Cavs 1 , Playoff opponents Pistons 1 , hawks 2, Raptors 2 , Warriors 3.
So Jordan had to face off against at least one squad with more all stars in their lineups his first, third titles and his 6th title and equal all stars his 2nd ,4th and 5th titles.
James Heat Team never had to face off against an equal number of all star players in their 2 titles. A little bit embarrassing that they had to go 7 games against the Pacers in 2013 3 All Stars to 1.
The only time he got the job done was 2016.
James has the most turnovers in playoff history and most missed 3's in playoff history to boot.
More fun facts
To be clear and for the record this is what you can do to prove a point without using context and cherry pick data that is 100% correct.The posters who continually do this drag the overall quality of this forum down , whether it is deliberate or not , they really should stop for the good of this great forum.
Cheers.
I apologize to the OP for going off the theme of this thread.
[/quote]
Wow this really puts the super team era in perspective. First few rounds of playoffs are so watered down now. Thank you for putting this together
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I can't tolerate watching this beta whiner play. Don't plan on watching any game of his that doesn't involve the Celtics.
I'm proud to say that I didn't watch one single second of the Finals last year. Not gonna waste my time watching the King of Whining or the Ringchaser and Jerky Draymond.
Will ratings go down if that is matchup again this year? I'm pretty diehard fan and even I would be a bit bored with it
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So basically what you're saying is you don't like him because he's good. I mean, that happens to pretty much all great players.
Yeah, that's a totally nuanced reading of what I said.
But seriously, I loved Tim Duncan, who was also great. The Warriors are great, and win everything, but I like them too. I guess they just don't seem to break all the rules of what seems like it should matter when it comes to what constitutes "good basketball."
Anyway, I didn't intend this post as a criticism of LeBron or his game. Just a reflection on the fan experience, I guess.
I went back and re-read and it seems to me, that's pretty much exactly what you said. Basically whoever has Lebron wins, and you even compared him to Jordan because it must have been the same feeling. I suppose you like Duncan because he wasn't quite and good. And the Warriors, well, they're in the way of the guy you don't want...lebron.
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I can't tolerate watching this beta whiner play. Don't plan on watching any game of his that doesn't involve the Celtics.
I'm proud to say that I didn't watch one single second of the Finals last year. Not gonna waste my time watching the King of Whining or the Ringchaser and Jerky Draymond.
Will ratings go down if that is matchup again this year? I'm pretty diehard fan and even I would be a bit bored with it
I'd expect lower ratings. I certainly wouldn't be interested.
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Every detail counts in the GOAT debate.
some more data
Every detail counts in the GOAT department
Jordan' Bulls
Number of All Stars
1991 Bulls 1 , Playoff opponents 76ers 2, Pistons 2, Lakers 2
1992 Bulls 2, Playoff opponents Cavs 2
1993 Bulls 2, Playoff opponents Cavs 3
1996 Bulls 2 , Playoff opponents Magic 2, Sonics 2
1997 Bulls 2 , Playoff opponents Hawks 2, Heat 2, Jazz 2
1998 Bulls 1 , Playoff opponents Nets 1,Hornets 1, Pacers 2,Jazz 1
James Teams
Number of All Stars
2012 Heat 3 , Playoff opponents Knicks 1, Pacers 1, Celtics 2, Thunder 2
2013 Heat 3 , Playoff opponents Bucks 0 , Bulls 2, Pacers 1 , Spurs 2
2016 Cavs 1 , Playoff opponents Pistons 1 , hawks 2, Raptors 2 , Warriors 3.
So Jordan had to face off against at least one squad with more all stars in their lineups his first, third titles and his 6th title and equal all stars his 2nd ,4th and 5th titles.
James Heat Team never had to face off against an equal number of all star players in their 2 titles. A little bit embarrassing that they had to go 7 games against the Pacers in 2013 3 All Stars to 1.
The only time he got the job done was 2016.
James has the most turnovers in playoff history and most missed 3's in playoff history to boot.
More fun facts
To be clear and for the record this is what you can do to prove a point without using context and cherry pick data that is 100% correct.The posters who continually do this drag the overall quality of this forum down , whether it is deliberate or not , they really should stop for the good of this great forum.
Cheers.
I apologize to the OP for going off the theme of this thread.
Wow this really puts the super team era in perspective. First few rounds of playoffs are so watered down now. Thank you for putting this together
[/quote]Of course that isn't exactly accurate. The Knicks for example had Ewing who was an all star all of those Bulls title seasons and the Knicks played the Bulls every single year of the first three-peat. Clyde was an all star for Portland. he isn't on that list either. The Suns had both Charles and Majerle as all stars in 93. They aren't on his list. Dominique was an all star for the Hawks, not on the list.
and I'm certainly not sure how you reached your conclusion that today is the watered down time. His numbers, even with the missing ones, in fact show just how weak Jordan's competition was throughout his runs.
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So basically what you're saying is you don't like him because he's good. I mean, that happens to pretty much all great players.
Yeah, that's a totally nuanced reading of what I said.
But seriously, I loved Tim Duncan, who was also great. The Warriors are great, and win everything, but I like them too. I guess they just don't seem to break all the rules of what seems like it should matter when it comes to what constitutes "good basketball."
Anyway, I didn't intend this post as a criticism of LeBron or his game. Just a reflection on the fan experience, I guess.
I went back and re-read and it seems to me, that's pretty much exactly what you said. Basically whoever has Lebron wins, and you even compared him to Jordan because it must have been the same feeling. I suppose you like Duncan because he wasn't quite and good. And the Warriors, well, they're in the way of the guy you don't want...lebron.
I suppose you weren't much for reading comprehension on the 'ol SAT then, eh?
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As for LeBron's challenges reaching the Finals, I won't pull the stats now because I did it in another thread a while back, but if you look at the last 6-8 years or so, most of the top 5-6 teams in SRS (Simple Rating Score -- based on schedule strength and point differential) have been in the West.
In any given season, LeBron has had to face 0-1 of the best teams in the league on his way to the Finals.
Of course, the Raps were by the numbers one of the best teams this year, and he obliterated them.
So again, LeBron is the death of trying to reason your way through this stuff beyond "Which team has LeBron?"
Maybe this is more about the Raps being a confounding outlier as a team that underperforms its regular season each year. The Hawks had a similar falling apart against the Cavs in 2015, though.
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As for LeBron's challenges reaching the Finals, I won't pull the stats now because I did it in another thread a while back, but if you look at the last 6-8 years or so, most of the top 5-6 teams in SRS (Simple Rating Score -- based on schedule strength and point differential) have been in the West.[/b]
In any given season, LeBron has had to face 0-1 of the best teams in the league on his way to the Finals.
Of course, the Raps were by the numbers one of the best teams this year, and he obliterated them.
So again, LeBron is the death of trying to reason your way through this stuff beyond "Which team has LeBron?"
Maybe this is more about the Raps being a confounding outlier as a team that underperforms its regular season each year. The Hawks had a similar falling apart against the Cavs in 2015, though.
I remember that post. You did a good job with it. I don't really understand people that try to argue the east has not been a cakewalk for sometime. A site like 538, which officially has no anti or pro lebron bias, pointed out last year that something like 17 of the top 20 players by advanced metrics resided in the west. This isn't really even something that can be argued. I don't get why Lebron fans even bother.
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Still, I don't think that's it. I enjoy plenty of superstars that hold the ball a lot and don't empower their teammates to do things. Not every superstar can be Al Horford or Steve Nash.
I was thinking about this in the wake of the Raptors getting smoked -- again -- by the Cavs, and I realized something that feels close to the heart of it:
LeBron makes being a serious basketball fan feel like a waste of time, at least when it comes to understanding the playoffs.
What's the point of knowing things about roster construction, cap space, threes versus twos, coaching strategies, ideal bench lineups, and so on ... when LeBron cuts through all of that and makes it very simple: Which team has LeBron?
The Raptors won close to 60 games this year. They had the point differential to match that win total. On paper they were clearly the best team in the East. They should have beaten the Cavs in 5, on paper.
Not just on paper, either. You could have looked at the tape and talked about the bevy of useful players on the Raptors. You could have talked about how they changed their offense to be more versatile and efficient. You could have talked about the intangibles of a core group of players that had played together a while, with a coach who had seen plenty in the playoffs and learned many tough lessons.
But the casual fan who never watches NBA basketball except in late April and May could have tuned in to see the score of any of the Cavs games against the Raptors and done just as good as job as you or I explaining what was happening:
LeBron.
Two years ago, the Warriors won 73 games and were the triumph of threes over twos, of building through the draft, of creative lineups. Any "smart" basketball fan would have said, no way can they lose to the Cavs, even with a Draymond suspension and a Curry injury.
LeBron flew in like a block on a layup in transition and smacked away any notion of the superiority of "smart" fans -- he was the only thing that mattered.
And you know, I don't like feeling that following the sport, paying attention to the regular season, listening to podcasts, and so on, that all of that doesn't matter at all when it comes to understanding what happens in the games that are most important.
I imagine if I'd been old enough to be a serious fan during the 90s I would've felt similarly about Jordan.
So bottom line, I think it's a vanity thing, an ego thing. It feels good to feel like investing time to understand the nerdy stuff of basketball helps to appreciate what happens in the most important games. It doesn't feel good to think that this sport in which I invest so much time and energy really can be as simple as who has LeBron on their team. Then it feels kind of frivolous and silly.
What do you think? Anybody identify with what I'm saying here?
Okay, so he's so good that nothing else matters. So what's the difference between that and what I said already...you don't like him because he's good?
And this is a serious question. None of this, I guess I don't get it crap. If I'm wrong, explain it and I will gladly accept.
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What's the point of knowing things about roster construction, cap space, threes versus twos, coaching strategies, ideal bench lineups, and so on ... when LeBron cuts through all of that and makes it very simple: Which team has LeBron?
The Raptors won close to 60 games this year. They had the point differential to match that win total. On paper they were clearly the best team in the East. They should have beaten the Cavs in 5, on paper.
Not just on paper, either. You could have looked at the tape and talked about the bevy of useful players on the Raptors. You could have talked about how they changed their offense to be more versatile and efficient. You could have talked about the intangibles of a core group of players that had played together a while, with a coach who had seen plenty in the playoffs and learned many tough lessons.
The Raptors will neither be the first nor the last team that dominated the regular season and folded in the playoffs. Call it not having a second gear, peaking too early, shirking from the big moment, or whatever. I'm not sure LeBron has anything to do with this.
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I sort of get what Pho is saying.
Watching Game 1, the Celtics play basketball at a much more skilled and refined level. Better defense, better passing, better coaching. They hustle, they play smarter.
And yet, even after this blowout, the Cavs are at least a 50/50 shot to win this series, because Lebron.
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You can intellectualize a lot of valid reasons for disliking LeBron -- he stagnates offensive movement, whines for/benefits from calls, it appears no other team is 'good enough' to stop him. But a normal and adaptive response would be to develop a strong dislike for your perennial rival.
It explains your perceptions of LeBron and CLE, and probably interacts with and heightens them. That's what fandom's all about.
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This explains a lot.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/5/17/17362892/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-technical-free-throws
There’s only one scenario in which LeBron James hustling can go wrong: it’s when he’s dashing to the free throw line. Take the opening game of the Eastern Conference finals between Cleveland and Boston this past weekend. In the third quarter, Boston’s Al Horford committed a three-second violation. It took half that time for LeBron to realize a technical foul had been called, and there he was: power-walking to the free throw line before Mike Breen could get the call out.
James’s teammate Kyle Korver had also moved toward the stripe, which makes sense since Korver, at 88.9 percent from the line this season, is the team’s best free throw shooter. But there was LeBron stepping in front of him with his back turned. The team awarded the shot gets to decide who takes said shot, and because logic is logic, the most accurate free throw shooter on the floor typically gets the ball. But there was no conversation between LeBron and Korver. There was no pleading by the Cavs sharpshooter, no objection from the coaching staff, despite it being a playoff game, and despite Cleveland being down 23 points. There was only LeBron, waiting for the ball. Right fist up, blow. Left fist up, blow.
“It’s just one of those unspoken things that LeBron steps to the line,” says ESPN’s Brian Windhorst, who has been covering James his entire career. “Now I’m not saying that over the course of time, there weren’t moments when it was brought up within the coaching staff. The Cavs, like many teams, employ an entire analytics staff.”
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There are 15 seasons of evidence that point to it not being Lue’s choice at all. Throughout his career, LeBron has regularly volunteered to take technical free throws. (“Volunteer” being a loose term.) His rookie year under Paul Silas, an 18-year-old LeBron took nearly a third of Cleveland’s drawn techs. He ranked 10th on the team in free throw percentage. (To this day, he’s never finished any higher than sixth.) After four seasons in the league, James had taken 41.9 percent of the Cavalier’s technical free throws and shot them at a 65.8 percent rate.
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My theory on why I struggle to enjoy LBJ, he's eliminated the C's in the playoffs 5 times in the past 10 years!
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LeBron makes being a serious basketball fan feel like a waste of time, at least when it comes to understanding the playoffs.
What do you think? Anybody identify with what I'm saying here?
I cut a bunch of stuff out here, but I definitely identify because I feel similarly about the post-Durant Warriors. That feeling of inevitability is sour, and I think would still be a tiny bit even if I rooted for them.
However, the saving grace is that almost nobody gets to be Bill Russell anymore. Everyone gets taken down sometimes (even Russell), and usually one last time that marks their departure from relevance.
Someone in the East will get LeBron - really hopeful it'll be us. Somebody in the league will get Golden State - probably not this year though. Both will feel more momentous precisely because of that feeling of inevitability. And history suggests they more often than not come earlier than expected.
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Lebron gives terrible effort on both ends when not engaged
especially on defense
Brown open shots, Rozier open shots.....this was on Lebron was game
Not consistently engaged and aging..... I say he has 2 more years left before things go downhill
Its inevitable. It Happens