CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Green-18 on April 19, 2018, 08:22:06 AM
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I'm sure it's nearly unanimous that we all believe Brad Stevens is an elite coach. The divide in opinion really boils down to people's perceived value of NBA coaches in general. The classic argument is that talent wins out over coaching by a significant margin. This leaves me with two questions for everyone.
1. Assuming Brad was given the 2017 off-season and training camp to prepare, where do the remaining playoff teams in both Conferences finish during the regular season with him as their coach? For example, does a team like OKC play to their potential and finish as a top 3 team in the West? Let's leave Golden State, Houston, and Cleveland out of the argument.
2. Does Brad have the same impact on team chemistry in an organization without Danny as a GM? Brad has always had the luxury of coaching a combination of underdogs, castoffs, or top draft picks with excellent character and work ethic. Danny and Brad have stayed clear of Superstars who cause drama on and off the court. Would Brad be able to manage stubborn Superstar personalities on other teams?
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It is hard to say as we've never seen Stevens have a full repertoire of healthy elite talent. Maybe Stevens is a guy that gets the most out of role players, but can't get elite talent to gel or mesh. There is a special skill in dealing with truly elite talent. Phil Jackson is an example of a guy that mastered the art of dealing with egos, but I don't think Phil was a guy that could have taken a bunch of role players and made them a playoff team, which Stevens has been able to do multiple times. That said, I do think Stevens would have implemented a system in OKC that is better than the system Donovan runs. I have no idea if it would have worked better or if he could have gotten full buy in from Westbrook, George, and Anthony, but if I was a fan of the Thunder I'd feel a lot better with Stevens running the show than Donovan (since Donovan hasn't shown much in his time there).
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1) I think that coaching can provide an "aura effect" to a team. An elite coach can elevate all players to enter a new ranking. A bad coach can deflate player value. It's an unfortunate aspect of the NBA where depending on what team you play for impacts your value. Notable examples are Jae Crowder, Avery Bradley, Evan Turner, IT, Marcus Morris, Kyrie Irving.. I mean basically anyone that we've seen play for another team and for the Celtics. Something in their game elevates in green. To answer this question, it's hard to put a number as far as seeding, but just imagine a bucket of players each in 5 groups: significantly under replacement, under replacement, replacement level, above replacement, significantly above replacement. Playing under a Brad Stevens jumps you up 1 level. Multiply that by a 12 man rotation and it could be a huge difference.
2) We have no factual basis to answer this question, but I believe yes. I also don't believe that Brad would join a team like the Knicks, if that makes sense. He seems to be smart enough to understand a bad situation.
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I can't call him elite yet
He has don remarkable things so far and his teams overachieve. That it not a small accomplishment!
But he needs to prove his value on the highest level too before he becomes elite. If you ask me he will get there sooner or later.
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1) I think that coaching can provide an "aura effect" to a team. An elite coach can elevate all players to enter a new ranking. A bad coach can deflate player value. It's an unfortunate aspect of the NBA where depending on what team you play for impacts your value. Notable examples are Jae Crowder, Avery Bradley, Evan Turner, IT, Marcus Morris, Kyrie Irving.. I mean basically anyone that we've seen play for another team and for the Celtics. Something in their game elevates in green. To answer this question, it's hard to put a number as far as seeding, but just imagine a bucket of players each in 5 groups: significantly under replacement, under replacement, replacement level, above replacement, significantly above replacement. Playing under a Brad Stevens jumps you up 1 level. Multiply that by a 12 man rotation and it could be a huge difference.
2) We have no factual basis to answer this question, but I believe yes. I also don't believe that Brad would join a team like the Knicks, if that makes sense. He seems to be smart enough to understand a bad situation.
I feel the same way. Brad appears to have an ability to communicate his message in a way that develops trust. I wonder how much of this is accomplished via film study and one on one meetings during the off-season. It's one thing to preach team play, ball movement, and "winning" plays. The problem is that the message can get old without a results driven plan. I believe Brad has an ability to sit down and demonstrate how each player will excel in his system. His transparency, knowledge, and preparation would earn my respect instantly.
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He is precious and priceless in this league.
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Definitely takes buying into the system. I also don't believe that Brad has a system. He creates a system based on what he has. I think that he has clearly defined roles of each player and his expectations of them.
One example is how Kyrie defends the pick and roll. He basically sets Kyrie off to the ball handler's strong hand so that the ball handler has only 1 option: drive to his weak hand with Horford waiting along with a beautiful series of switches. So he leverages Horford's defense to improve Kyrie's.
When we had IT, Marcus Smart was basically IT's shadow. Any time IT was posted, left on an island, or in any other compromised situation, Smart was always there to quickly switch. I remember the first time seeing it, IT was posted up by a much bigger guy. As the ball was coming into the post, Smart had already made the switch so imagine the player's confusion. That's another example of leveraging.
There are a bunch of other examples, but the bottom line is I think that he lists the strengths and weaknesses of every player and sees what weaknesses can be supported by a strength to form a cohesive unit. This makes the 5 individuals on the court into 1 unit each with a job.
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IMO he is the NBA's best Superstar.
Why?
- He makes every player around him better, no player or coach can claim that.
- His career will last 40 years.
- His contributions don't count against salary cap. Sweet!
- He is getting better with each year.
- His injury risks are much lower than of any other SStar except LBJ.
- His ego doesn't get in his way.
- He is a magnet for free agents.
- He makes GM's job easier.
- He consistently draws better plays in the clutch then any player can create regularly. Kyrie or Tyler Zeller, late game success happens regardless of the personel.
- He never seems entirely satisfied. He is hungry and determined for success.
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He is precious and priceless in this league.
I couldn't agree more. I read a book by Bill Russell about Red Aurbach and in it he talked over and over again about Red not trying to force players into his system. Instead Red would tell his players what he saw as their strengths and would tell them it is his job to implement their strengths into the team.
This is exactly what Brad does. Rather than trying to take an Evan Turner and try to force him to be a stand and shoot player, he recognizes that one of his strengths is driving the ball so he uses that strength to help the Celtics when he is in. The result of this is while he has an overarching coaching philosophy, he is willing to tweak things to fit his personnel. This is why I believe players shine under him because he is utilizing their strengths and they are able to focus on what they do best.
In addition to this, he also works to develop his players in areas they may not have been known to be strong in, especially defensively. He gets them to work hard and helps hide their weaknesses, putting them in the best possible situation to succeed personally, but more importantly to help the team succeed. I think he is an absolutely brilliant coach, one of the best right now with the possibility of being one of the all-time greats!
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Well he's a coach that is good for 4 to 5 wins a year, just based on Xs and Os and team preparation. And he does know how to get the most out of players.
A superstar in Kyrie Irving wanted to be traded here to play for him because he's so cerebral. Thats his true value.
The day will come when a journeyman veteran puts a dollar value on happiness and stays with this team at a hometown discount to keep playing for Brad. And that, that is his true value.
BTW Prediction: Monroe takes a hometown discount to stay (Baynes and Rozier chase their coin). Smart gets matched because he gets a reasonable offer. Morris takes a hometown discount to stay too.
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a fudge Popsicle
or maybe a nutty bar ?
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Since Brad started as coach, the Celts have consistently:
- Been disciplined
- Tried hard on defense
- Moved the ball
- Executed well out of timeouts
- Won a lot of close games
- Made the playoffs 4 out of 5 years
- Won 13 playoff games and counting.
- Featured an array of players who were unknown or seen as fringe rotation players prior to joining the Celts
- Won a lot of regular season games with an ever changing and generally very young roster
- Signed two highly coveted free agents who were excited to play on Brad's team.
The true value of Brad is being able to count on all of the above, plus lots of other positive things I didn't mention. He's a stable foundation, an emotional and intellectual center for the franchise.
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More influential to his respective field: Doogie Howser or Brad Stevens?
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Ask Butler the true value of Brad Stevens.
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Irving wanted to be traded here to play for him because he's so cerebral.
I know Rondo is considered to be very cerebral too, it's a shame he didn't really work out with Stevens.
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More influential to his respective field: Doogie Howser or Brad Stevens?
Lol. Classic tarheels. TP, pal..
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More influential to his respective field: Doogie Howser or Brad Stevens?
Lol. Classic tarheels. TP, pal..
Self-promotion is obnoxious, tarheels. Next you'll be giving yourself TPs in your head.
:P
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More influential to his respective field: Doogie Howser or Brad Stevens?
Sure, Dr Douglas "Doogie" Howser won a People's Choice, Emmy, and Golden Globe award. Yeah, he earned a perfect score on the SAT at the age of six, completed high school in nine weeks at the age of nine, graduated from Princeton University at the age of 10, and finished medical school at age 14 (becoming the youngest Dr. in the country).
To answer your question, definitely Brad. Doogie only performed life-changing procedures from September 19, 1989, to March 24, 1993. If you ask me, I don't think that Doogie fulfilled his potential.
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I'm sure it's nearly unanimous that we all believe Brad Stevens is an elite coach. The divide in opinion really boils down to people's perceived value of NBA coaches in general. The classic argument is that talent wins out over coaching by a significant margin. This leaves me with two questions for everyone.
1. Assuming Brad was given the 2017 off-season and training camp to prepare, where do the remaining playoff teams in both Conferences finish during the regular season with him as their coach? For example, does a team like OKC play to their potential and finish as a top 3 team in the West? Let's leave Golden State, Houston, and Cleveland out of the argument.
2. Does Brad have the same impact on team chemistry in an organization without Danny as a GM? Brad has always had the luxury of coaching a combination of underdogs, castoffs, or top draft picks with excellent character and work ethic. Danny and Brad have stayed clear of Superstars who cause drama on and off the court. Would Brad be able to manage stubborn Superstar personalities on other teams?
TP to you for the challenge.
Recently, Jaylen Brown spoke of Stevens as "their leader". These are broad concepts, but, may apply to "Stevens as coach of the Celtics". (In turn, over his first years here, this dynamic has changed, he has earned his reputation as a rising star and everybody wants to associate with a rising star).
Auerbach is a good example here....we skip to later in Red's career. He had Russell. Bill Russell was the "leader" of the team in almost every way. The physical leader, the commitment and effort leader, but, most importantly Bill Russell was the emotional leader. Red had no issue with this and made Russell player coach. Red wanted to win and knew this was best. Red put Russell into the position where all of his talents would be exploited for the benefit of the team even intangibles.
Stevens has always known the importance of how to get the most from each player within the team dynamic...that is a coaches' job. In Stevens time here, he has had "lesser" talent, it has been a process. You think our favorite Mormon is shocked at the development of the team, it's level of talent and it's young coach? Ainge has all of this charted....twice.
Rivers had three hall of famers, Rondo, and a "bunch of guys" who rotated in and out through the years. Would Ainge have looked at a "young Stevens type" to take over the team with the arrival of Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen? Perhaps not. Does Ainge have any problem bringing a superstar to Boston now? The Boston Celtics are "Brad Steven's team"...in a manner of speaking, a player is going to get "fired" before Stevens does. Any player considering the Celtics knows this and must acknowledge it. Years ago..."Hey Shaq? You want to come and play with KG?" It was not about Doc Rivers, was it?
Star power is star power and Stevens, as of today has far more than he did day one in Boston upon arrival from Zionsville, Indiana. If Steven's had taken over a different "playoff team" this year?
VEGAS odds
Raptors 19-2
Sixers 18-1
Celtics 50-1
OKC 50-1
Pels 75-1
Who cares what I think, let's ask the betting public...
I suggest the number drops on all of the above teams for a basic reason...Stevens already has the reputation. Gamblers would have to factor the subtraction of the existing coach and the addition of Stevens into his investment. All this being said? Anthony Davis is going to move these numbers far more than a coach.
"I'd love to play for Brad Stevens" coming from an NBA player translates quite simply to...
"I want to win."
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he can coach in his sleep