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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: EJPLAYA on April 18, 2018, 04:15:06 PM

Title: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: EJPLAYA on April 18, 2018, 04:15:06 PM
You've got to be kidding me!!!! I can see them discussing ONE of them for Kawhi and realize this might even be a valid discussion worth having, but BOTH?! They've lost their mind. We're talking about two young players who are on the heels of Kawhi and who aren't hurt, aren't giving up on their team when things aren't the way they want them. Who don't have family giving them bad advice and causing them to make bad decisions. I don't trade EITHER one of them straight up for Leonard right now. I sure hope Danny sees this core of Irving, Hayward, Tatum, and Brown as the future of Celtics bball and that we can contend for years and pick up a couple championships. This move would put us as short term contenders only and mortgage the future.

Anyone out there would do this?!
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: PhoSita on April 18, 2018, 04:22:27 PM
Yeah, I can stomach talking about putting together a package centered around one of them, but I would not trade both.

Not for a guy who just basically missed the whole season with a weird injury and who may not re-sign here after a year or two.

The Celts, and this is really important to remember, can't really afford to pay Kawhi and Kyrie and Gordon and still have a decent roster.  That's just not feasible.


Kyrie - Brown - Hayward - Tatum - Horford ... let's just see what that group can do.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: rondofan1255 on April 18, 2018, 04:22:58 PM
Reminds me of Bulls fans wanting two Brooklyn picks for Butler
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: blink on April 18, 2018, 04:22:58 PM
trading both of them is a non-starter, no way we do that. lol
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: blink on April 18, 2018, 04:26:44 PM
Not for a guy who just basically missed the whole season with a weird injury and who may not re-sign here after a year or two.

I agree, the injury itself and the drama surrounding his coming back, not coming back gives me a lot of pause.  Has the injury healed / is he healthy right now?  If so, why isn't he back with the team?  A lot of read between the lines comments from  pop and the players.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: jambr380 on April 18, 2018, 04:29:24 PM
I guess if this is the asking price, then those worried about Philly trading Saric and Fultz for him need not be worried anymore.

The prospect of trading for Kawhi is certainly intriguing, but I hate the idea of trading either of our top two young players for him. Hayward would be the obvious choice in terms of a good match for both teams, but that wouldn't happen in real life. If Scary Terry keeps up his performance, would Kyrie be available?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 18, 2018, 04:39:54 PM
Right now, Brown + Tatum probably impact games more than just Kawhi. It’s debatable, at the very least.

Going forward, that gap should increase greatly.

I’d trade one of them. I wouldn’t include the other or one of our prime picks.

Tatum/Brown + Rozier + Morris + Yabu. That’s a ton of value for the Spurs.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on April 18, 2018, 04:47:40 PM
Unfortunately the narrative around the Spurs has been internal development for 20 years.

The narrative around the Celtics has been trades for the last 12.

That narrative is shifting, and its the best path to a dynasty.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Moranis on April 18, 2018, 04:57:47 PM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on April 18, 2018, 05:22:52 PM
Is marijuana legal in Connecticut now, too?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Ogaju on April 18, 2018, 05:24:12 PM
Boston does not need Kawhi
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Neurotic Guy on April 18, 2018, 05:46:14 PM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Celtics4ever on April 18, 2018, 06:00:43 PM
ESPN = Opinionated loudmouths and rumors.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: keevsnick on April 18, 2018, 06:02:06 PM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 18, 2018, 06:07:53 PM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: ThaPreacher on April 18, 2018, 06:55:11 PM
Why Kawai Leanard?  Whose to say he doesn't have the same issues in Boston.
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization.

Keep the youth! 
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 18, 2018, 07:06:05 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization

I think a lot of the “class” in San Antonio comes from players agreeing to take less than their fair market value.  It has been a very pro-management team. It’s probably not a coincidence that guys like LMA and Kawhi are having some clashes with the organization right now.

And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.

Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Sketch5 on April 18, 2018, 07:24:42 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization

I think a lot of the “class” in San Antonio comes from players agreeing to take less than their fair market value.  It has been a very pro-management team. It’s probably not a coincidence that guys like LMA and Kawhi are having some clashes with the organization right now.

And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.

Irving and Kawhi's situations were a little different. We don't really know why Kawhi all of a sudden wants to bolt. Seems like a good ownership, and a great coach, and stand up players all around him.

Irving had to deal with a poor Owner, and LEbron manipulative BS. There was always issues, and finger pointing and maybe Irving didn't want to be a part of that. It's not fun going to work when you have co-workers out for their own selfish needs. Also Irving was rumored in trade talks not long before he asked to leave. Gotta put that in consideration when you start comparing the two.

But if it comes out that there was issues with Ownership and Pop, then I wouldn't blame Kawhi at all for wanting out. Which makes you kinda respect the C's a little more when players like KG and IT didn't want to leave. And how much PP and KG have spread the good word about the C's
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: footey on April 18, 2018, 07:42:46 PM
Reminds me of Bulls fans wanting two Brooklyn picks for Butler

And half this board signing up for that.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 18, 2018, 07:45:46 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization

I think a lot of the “class” in San Antonio comes from players agreeing to take less than their fair market value.  It has been a very pro-management team. It’s probably not a coincidence that guys like LMA and Kawhi are having some clashes with the organization right now.

And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.

Irving and Kawhi's situations were a little different. We don't really know why Kawhi all of a sudden wants to bolt. Seems like a good ownership, and a great coach, and stand up players all around him.

Irving had to deal with a poor Owner, and LEbron manipulative BS. There was always issues, and finger pointing and maybe Irving didn't want to be a part of that. It's not fun going to work when you have co-workers out for their own selfish needs. Also Irving was rumored in trade talks not long before he asked to leave. Gotta put that in consideration when you start comparing the two.

But if it comes out that there was issues with Ownership and Pop, then I wouldn't blame Kawhi at all for wanting out. Which makes you kinda respect the C's a little more when players like KG and IT didn't want to leave. And how much PP and KG have spread the good word about the C's

Why is San Antonio’s ownership group better? Spending-wise I’m not sure that’s the case.  The rumor is that they’re not willing to give him his full max. I can’t imagine Cleveland short-changing an MVP candidate like that.

And, Lebron has a ton of drama attached to him, but he’s not the only guy with an ego. Kawhi is sharing time with LMA, Rudy Gay and Tony Parker, all of whom have their own negatives.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: footey on April 18, 2018, 07:46:57 PM
It amazes me how many folk want to make this team older, not better.

Dumb.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: flybono on April 18, 2018, 07:54:09 PM
And then they woke up!

#### Espn!
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 18, 2018, 07:55:59 PM
It amazes me how many folk want to make this team older, not better.

Dumb.

Adding a 27 year old top-5 player would make the team better.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Phantom255x on April 18, 2018, 08:01:19 PM
It amazes me how many folk want to make this team older, not better.

Dumb.

Adding a 27 year old top-5 player would make the team better.

That's assuming he's healthy AND he actually wants to play...
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: KGs Knee on April 18, 2018, 08:06:03 PM
It amazes me how many folk want to make this team older, not better.

Dumb.

Adding a 27 year old top-5 player would make the team better.

Yeah, Anthony Davis is worthy of such an offer.  He's a top 5 player.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Moranis on April 18, 2018, 09:16:05 PM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Phantom255x on April 18, 2018, 09:19:00 PM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons

Yeah I was actually just about to say this. PHI can. And I doubt they do this, but if Magic Johnson signs PG13 and knows Lebron ain't coming, then maybe he's actually willing to trade Kuzma AND Ingram for Leonard, which would beat that offer too.

But PHI can by trading Saric, Fultz, Salary + like 2 future first rounders (including this year's Lakers Pick).

Frankly though, I'm fine with that. C's shouldn't overpay here. I like the team that we have. Just need to pray we stay relatively healthy next year and hope some of the young guys take an extra step (like Brown and Tatum improve more, and hey, maybe someone like Ojeyele surprises us and makes a bit of a leap next year).
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 18, 2018, 09:19:23 PM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but there I wouldn't trade Tatum for any combination of players on the Sixers roster that didn't include Embiid and Simmons.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 18, 2018, 09:22:50 PM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons

Yeah I was actually just about to say this. PHI can. And I doubt they do this, but if Magic Johnson signs PG13 and knows Lebron ain't coming, then maybe he's actually willing to trade Kuzma AND Ingram for Leonard, which would beat that offer too.

But PHI can by trading Saric, Fultz, Salary + like 2 future first rounders (including this year's Lakers Pick).

Frankly though, I'm fine with that. C's shouldn't overpay here. I like the team that we have. Just need to pray we stay relatively healthy next year and hope some of the young guys take an extra step (like Brown and Tatum improve more, and hey, maybe someone like Ojeyele surprises us and makes a bit of a leap next year).

You would trade Tatum + Rozier + Morris for Saric + Fultz + Lakers pick + PHI #1?

Why?  Is Fultz's 2.5 points per game on 14.3% shooting in the playoffs that impressive?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Eja117 on April 18, 2018, 09:36:12 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter. Kawhi is the kind of player that should end up on the Clippers with Doc.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: gouki88 on April 18, 2018, 09:40:25 PM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but there I wouldn't trade Tatum for any combination of players on the Sixers roster that didn't include Embiid and Simmons.
Without question. Nobody on Philly’s roster that isn’t one of their twin towers is on JT’s level. I’d say the same about JB (unless LAL win the lottery)
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 18, 2018, 09:40:49 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: CelticsElite on April 18, 2018, 09:42:34 PM
Tatum is kyries personal friend. They vacationed together before kyrie was even a celtic. You don't trade Tatum because he keeps kyrie happier  here than other places
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Eja117 on April 18, 2018, 09:42:53 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 18, 2018, 09:49:05 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: More Banners on April 18, 2018, 10:32:57 PM
I'm excited enough about our roster to lean toward not making any major trades of our top 8-9. Next year we can make a run. No need to trade for someone coming off injury. There are very, very few players that would move the needle very much for us next year. Given our strength and depth at wing, I'm not even sure kawhi is a sure improvement, considering he might not be quite there, and our guys are still improving.

We've got a good hand. Let's play it.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on April 18, 2018, 10:34:17 PM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but there I wouldn't trade Tatum for any combination of players on the Sixers roster that didn't include Embiid and Simmons.

I'm with you. I think Tatum/Brown is better now (and will be in the future) than Saric/Fultz.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: EJPLAYA on April 18, 2018, 10:47:39 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I consider him quitting on his team because of his refusal to come back and play with them this year when he is arguably healthy enough to do so. If he ISN'T healthy enough at this point to do so then I want no part of giving up either one of these young future all-stars for a guy who hasn't played in an ENTIRE YEAR over a quad injury. That means he's either lying about how severe his injury is, or he it is way more serious than we think. Either way I don't want him. I do not blame him however for wanting a big contract and if he desires a change of scenery on his next one. (which is why I don't think Kyrie quit on his team either)
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: liam on April 18, 2018, 10:55:28 PM
If Rozier keeps playing like he did last game it will be Rozier for Kawhi....
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 18, 2018, 10:56:40 PM
I do not blame him however for wanting a big contract and if he desires a change of scenery on his next one. (which is why I don't think Kyrie quit on his team either)

I'm legitimately curious about this.

If next season Jayson Tatum forces a trade -- using the threat of season-ending surgery to do it -- will he have quit on our team?  What if it's Horford?  Or Hayward?

I don't really get the "change of scenery" thing when you're under contract. 
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: TheisTheisBaby on April 18, 2018, 11:12:14 PM
Kawhi is a better player than both right now yes.  But who's to say that they won't reach his level within a couple years?  We could have 4 legit all-star caliber players on this team for the next 6-8 years (not counting Horford) with Kyrie, GH, JB, and JT.  And we'll have the Lakers/Kings player as well.  Stick with what we have and let this group win a few titles.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: CELTICSofBOSTON on April 18, 2018, 11:23:11 PM
I’d definitely like a package centered around Brown but I’m concerned that Kawhi might not recover from the injury.  That’s the only question mark for me
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: gouki88 on April 18, 2018, 11:30:32 PM
Kawhi is a better player than both right now yes.  But who's to say that they won't reach his level within a couple years?  We could have 4 legit all-star caliber players on this team for the next 6-8 years (not counting Horford) with Kyrie, GH, JB, and JT.  And we'll have the Lakers/Kings player as well.  Stick with what we have and let this group win a few titles.
It's just incredibly unlikely that one, let alone two wings we have reach Kawhi's top 5-8 player in the league level. We'd almost certainly lose one of those 4 that you mentioned due to cap considerations alone if that were the case (further down the track).

However, I do agree that we should run it with what we have. After seeing what JB and JT have done over the first couple of games against Milwaukee I'm firmly of the belief that we could seriously challenge for a title in 2019, and by 2020 we should be a favourite to win it all.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on April 18, 2018, 11:37:07 PM
I do not blame him however for wanting a big contract and if he desires a change of scenery on his next one. (which is why I don't think Kyrie quit on his team either)

I'm legitimately curious about this.

If next season Jayson Tatum forces a trade -- using the threat of season-ending surgery to do it -- will he have quit on our team?  What if it's Horford?  Or Hayward?

I don't really get the "change of scenery" thing when you're under contract.

Great question.  I'm genuinely curious about others' thoughts here too.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: ETNCeltics on April 19, 2018, 12:47:27 AM
I'd - grudgingly - trade one of Brown/Tatum for KL. But I'd have to be very confident in the situation to do that. I don't trust his health, nor the prospects of him staying in Boston.

The reason we're mentioned in all of these scenarios is because the whole league covets Brown and Tatum. Ainge would be a fool to entertain trading both of them.

No, Philly couldn't match any offer involving either of them that didn't include one of it's 2 young stars. That's a ludicrous notion. 
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: KGs Knee on April 19, 2018, 01:00:58 AM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.

Did Kyrie really "quit" on the Cavs if they had already "quit" on him first?

Maybe Kyrie was just tired of playing next to a narcissistic player who blames everyone else for the team's shortcomings and rarely ever seems to accept any blame himself (LeBron).  Maybe Kyrie didn't like the fact the Cavs had dangled him in trades prior to ever asking for a trade himself.

Sure, Kyrie threatened to have surgery if they didn't trade him, but as we know now, it was a surgery that he needed to have anyways.  In hindsight, he should have just had the surgery last off-season.  Had he done that, he'd be playing right now instead of having to sit out the playoffs.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 19, 2018, 01:09:44 AM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.

Did Kyrie really "quit" on the Cavs if they had already "quit" on him first?

Maybe Kyrie was just tired of playing next to a narcissistic player who blames everyone else for the team's shortcomings and rarely ever seems to accept any blame himself (LeBron).  Maybe Kyrie didn't like the fact the Cavs had dangled him in trades prior to ever asking for a trade himself.

Sure, Kyrie threatened to have surgery if they didn't trade him, but as we know now, it was a surgery that he needed to have anyways.  In hindsight, he should have just had the surgery last off-season.  Had he done that, he'd be playing right now instead of having to sit out the playoffs.

None of that sounds particularly different than what Kawhi is allegedly: forcing himself out of a situation that he finds untenable by manipulating an injury situation.  The only difference is that Kyrie’s coach and teammates didn’t attack him through the media.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: KGs Knee on April 19, 2018, 01:19:17 AM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.

Did Kyrie really "quit" on the Cavs if they had already "quit" on him first?

Maybe Kyrie was just tired of playing next to a narcissistic player who blames everyone else for the team's shortcomings and rarely ever seems to accept any blame himself (LeBron).  Maybe Kyrie didn't like the fact the Cavs had dangled him in trades prior to ever asking for a trade himself.

Sure, Kyrie threatened to have surgery if they didn't trade him, but as we know now, it was a surgery that he needed to have anyways.  In hindsight, he should have just had the surgery last off-season.  Had he done that, he'd be playing right now instead of having to sit out the playoffs.

None of that sounds particularly different than what Kawhi is allegedly: forcing himself out of a situation that he finds untenable by manipulating an injury situation.  The only difference is that Kyrie’s coach and teammates didn’t attack him through the media.

For the record, I've never once blamed Kawhi for anything, nor have I claimed whatever is going on there is reason not to trade for him.  In fact, I've actually maintained that this is all probably a bit overblown.

Now, maybe it is true that Kawhi is to the point where he is so upset with the Spurs that he no longer wants to play there.  But that doesn't necessarily make him the 'bad guy'.  But maybe he is manipulating his injury situation as result.  Or maybe he legitimately still feels pain and isn't comfortable risking his long-term health.  I have always said a player should do what is in their own best interest in terms of their health.  I don't think anyone can say they truly know what exactly is going on there.  Both parties have been very quiet about it all.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Celtics4ever on April 19, 2018, 06:36:36 AM
Quote
None of that sounds particularly different than what Kawhi is allegedly: forcing himself out of a situation that he finds untenable by manipulating an injury situation. 

 I was thinking what a Jerk with pop's wife how she was in terms of health.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Eja117 on April 19, 2018, 07:54:41 AM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Moranis on April 19, 2018, 08:22:58 AM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.
Roy seems to be calling out the hypocrisy and blatant homerism as Kyrie and Kawhi's situation are very similar.  If you are ok with what Kyrie did it is pretty clearly hypocritical to not be ok with what Kawhi is doing.  That is the point he is making. 
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 19, 2018, 08:29:55 AM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.

So, I’m trying to figure out all the rules here. To avoid being a quitter when refusing to your contract, you must:

1. Demand a trade to a worse team (even if that team had more wins);

2.  Do it before or after the season, but threatening to sit out the season is fine;

3. Be inferior to at least one player on your team;

4. Be unable to deal with egos that are at least as big as your own.

What else?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 19, 2018, 09:09:44 AM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.

Did Kyrie really "quit" on the Cavs if they had already "quit" on him first?

Maybe Kyrie was just tired of playing next to a narcissistic player who blames everyone else for the team's shortcomings and rarely ever seems to accept any blame himself (LeBron).  Maybe Kyrie didn't like the fact the Cavs had dangled him in trades prior to ever asking for a trade himself.

Sure, Kyrie threatened to have surgery if they didn't trade him, but as we know now, it was a surgery that he needed to have anyways.  In hindsight, he should have just had the surgery last off-season.  Had he done that, he'd be playing right now instead of having to sit out the playoffs.

None of that sounds particularly different than what Kawhi is allegedly: forcing himself out of a situation that he finds untenable by manipulating an injury situation.  The only difference is that Kyrie’s coach and teammates didn’t attack him through the media.

For the record, I've never once blamed Kawhi for anything, nor have I claimed whatever is going on there is reason not to trade for him.  In fact, I've actually maintained that this is all probably a bit overblown.

Now, maybe it is true that Kawhi is to the point where he is so upset with the Spurs that he no longer wants to play there.  But that doesn't necessarily make him the 'bad guy'.  But maybe he is manipulating his injury situation as result.  Or maybe he legitimately still feels pain and isn't comfortable risking his long-term health.  I have always said a player should do what is in their own best interest in terms of their health.  I don't think anyone can say they truly know what exactly is going on there.  Both parties have been very quiet about it all.

I respect that point of view. I just don’t see a huge distinction between the two situations. Either they’re both “quitters”, or it doesn’t really matter. People who absolve Kyrie while denegrating Kawhi, though, seem to be making value judgments based solely upon which guy ended up in green.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: A Future of Stevens on April 19, 2018, 09:50:12 AM
I have absolutely no idea how bad Kawhi's injury is at this point. Any hesitation I have regarding Kawhi is 90% injury related and 10% drama. The fact that his teammates are turning on him BEFORE he leaves is the only red flag I see. But ultimately if he is healthy the drama is a non issue for me.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Moranis on April 19, 2018, 09:54:51 AM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons

Yeah I was actually just about to say this. PHI can. And I doubt they do this, but if Magic Johnson signs PG13 and knows Lebron ain't coming, then maybe he's actually willing to trade Kuzma AND Ingram for Leonard, which would beat that offer too.

But PHI can by trading Saric, Fultz, Salary + like 2 future first rounders (including this year's Lakers Pick).

Frankly though, I'm fine with that. C's shouldn't overpay here. I like the team that we have. Just need to pray we stay relatively healthy next year and hope some of the young guys take an extra step (like Brown and Tatum improve more, and hey, maybe someone like Ojeyele surprises us and makes a bit of a leap next year).

You would trade Tatum + Rozier + Morris for Saric + Fultz + Lakers pick + PHI #1?

Why?  Is Fultz's 2.5 points per game on 14.3% shooting in the playoffs that impressive?
Come on now, you don't actually think Fultz rates out as a 2.5 ppg on 14.3% shooting player do you?  His value is significantly higher than that.  He was the #1 pick for a reason and is coming back from injury.  He showed flashes of all his potential down the stretch as he worked back from injury.  Tatum likely has more value around the league, but the gap isn't nearly as much as this board makes it out to be.  Saric is better than Rozier and has more value.  The Lakers pick and a future Philly 1st is a lot more value than Morris and easily makes up the difference between Tatum and Fultz.  The Sixers package is greater than that package by the Celtics.  Boston can easily top it by adding Brown or the Sacto pick, but it would absolutely take that.  And even if you think Tatum + Brown is an overpay, if Leonard ends up in Philly, then Philly, not Boston, is the clear favorite in the East.  I mean, imagine if Philly makes that trade and then brings back most of their vets from this  Simmons, Redick, Leonard, Ilyasova, Embiid with Covington, McConnell, Belinelli, Johnson, and Holmes.  That team is stacked and would pose real problems for Boston going forward.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 19, 2018, 10:16:19 AM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons

Yeah I was actually just about to say this. PHI can. And I doubt they do this, but if Magic Johnson signs PG13 and knows Lebron ain't coming, then maybe he's actually willing to trade Kuzma AND Ingram for Leonard, which would beat that offer too.

But PHI can by trading Saric, Fultz, Salary + like 2 future first rounders (including this year's Lakers Pick).

Frankly though, I'm fine with that. C's shouldn't overpay here. I like the team that we have. Just need to pray we stay relatively healthy next year and hope some of the young guys take an extra step (like Brown and Tatum improve more, and hey, maybe someone like Ojeyele surprises us and makes a bit of a leap next year).

You would trade Tatum + Rozier + Morris for Saric + Fultz + Lakers pick + PHI #1?

Why?  Is Fultz's 2.5 points per game on 14.3% shooting in the playoffs that impressive?
Come on now, you don't actually think Fultz rates out as a 2.5 ppg on 14.3% shooting player do you?  His value is significantly higher than that.  He was the #1 pick for a reason and is coming back from injury.  He showed flashes of all his potential down the stretch as he worked back from injury.  Tatum likely has more value around the league, but the gap isn't nearly as much as this board makes it out to be.  Saric is better than Rozier and has more value.  The Lakers pick and a future Philly 1st is a lot more value than Morris and easily makes up the difference between Tatum and Fultz.  The Sixers package is greater than that package by the Celtics.  Boston can easily top it by adding Brown or the Sacto pick, but it would absolutely take that.  And even if you think Tatum + Brown is an overpay, if Leonard ends up in Philly, then Philly, not Boston, is the clear favorite in the East.  I mean, imagine if Philly makes that trade and then brings back most of their vets from this  Simmons, Redick, Leonard, Ilyasova, Embiid with Covington, McConnell, Belinelli, Johnson, and Holmes.  That team is stacked and would pose real problems for Boston going forward.

The kid shot 25% on all shots 3 feet and beyond.  He literally can only make layups.  He’s lost a ton of value since the draft.

It goes well beyond injury with him. He’s got mental hangups.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: ETNCeltics on April 19, 2018, 10:21:22 AM
Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 19, 2018, 10:23:59 AM
Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Fireworks_Boom! on April 19, 2018, 10:25:32 AM
I'm sorry but I like the team as currently constructed without trading away any of these pieces. We have two young studs completely cost controlled. In my opinion, because of the fact we have JT and JB cost controlled for the next 3-4 years, and as a result of the enormous promise they've both shown, there might be only one player I trade them for (and not both in the same package any longer). Anthony Davis. And I'm even second guessing doing that to be honest.

I know everyone wants stats out of Horford but he has never been that guy. He sets our offense up and plays solid fundamental basketball. Because Ainge hit on two young rookies, having Al on an expensive contract works. It won't work forever but it works for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: CF033 on April 19, 2018, 10:41:24 AM
I'm hoping Danny leaves well enough alone and keeps the team as-is. We don't need KL for this team to win, I'm not sure we'd even be better with him. I believe that if we trade either Jaylen Brown or Jason Tatum to make it happen we'll be regretting it in the long run when one or both of them are absolutely tearing it up on another team.

Also, can we be certain that KL can even fit in well here? It feels like the team has a great chemistry right now and that could certainly mess with it.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Moranis on April 19, 2018, 11:34:27 AM
Is the trade just Brown and Tatum and filler such that Boston keeps all prime draft picks, Morris, and Rozier (so Brown, Tatum, Yabu, Nader, and Semi)?  If so, I think that might be worth considering as a team of Irving, Hayward, Leonard, Morris, and Horford with Rozier, Smart, Theis, Baynes and/or Monroe on the bench is a clear title contender and the easy favorite in the East.  The team then still has the Sacto and Memphis picks to provide potential high end young talent.  That of course assumes both that Leonard is healthy and would re-sign.

Thanks for a rational post.  While I would be loathe to give up either Jay, the key is identifying the outcome. In this case C’s get a top 5 player to play alongside KI, GH, and AH — all in their primes. With Terry, Smart, Morris  and Moose/Baynes the C’s contend immediately.   

Imagine if the C’s had rookie JT alongside Al Jefferson in 2007 — do you trade JT and Al for KG?  You may not, but you could sure see the justification for doing it.   Kawhi is 5 years younger than KG was in 2007.  If KL is healthy, the idea of trading the Jays for him is not absurd. I wouldn’t like it because I want to see them develop here, but it’s a legit thought.

Except that id rather have Brown or Tatum than Morris and Rozier in vacuum and thats before you consider that Rozier or Morris will be on one year deals and unlikely to be back. Tatum and Brown is too much value for injure one year dual KL. And to answer your question if you had Tatum and Jefferson u absolutely dont trade both for KG, because as history showed us you only needed one.

I agree. The goal is multiple years of contention; keeping one of Brown/Tatum is non-negotiable.

And really, why should we have to add a prime draft pick?  What team is beating Tatum + Rozier + Morris, for instance?
the Sixers can pretty easily beat that while keeping both Embiid and Simmons

Yeah I was actually just about to say this. PHI can. And I doubt they do this, but if Magic Johnson signs PG13 and knows Lebron ain't coming, then maybe he's actually willing to trade Kuzma AND Ingram for Leonard, which would beat that offer too.

But PHI can by trading Saric, Fultz, Salary + like 2 future first rounders (including this year's Lakers Pick).

Frankly though, I'm fine with that. C's shouldn't overpay here. I like the team that we have. Just need to pray we stay relatively healthy next year and hope some of the young guys take an extra step (like Brown and Tatum improve more, and hey, maybe someone like Ojeyele surprises us and makes a bit of a leap next year).

You would trade Tatum + Rozier + Morris for Saric + Fultz + Lakers pick + PHI #1?

Why?  Is Fultz's 2.5 points per game on 14.3% shooting in the playoffs that impressive?
Come on now, you don't actually think Fultz rates out as a 2.5 ppg on 14.3% shooting player do you?  His value is significantly higher than that.  He was the #1 pick for a reason and is coming back from injury.  He showed flashes of all his potential down the stretch as he worked back from injury.  Tatum likely has more value around the league, but the gap isn't nearly as much as this board makes it out to be.  Saric is better than Rozier and has more value.  The Lakers pick and a future Philly 1st is a lot more value than Morris and easily makes up the difference between Tatum and Fultz.  The Sixers package is greater than that package by the Celtics.  Boston can easily top it by adding Brown or the Sacto pick, but it would absolutely take that.  And even if you think Tatum + Brown is an overpay, if Leonard ends up in Philly, then Philly, not Boston, is the clear favorite in the East.  I mean, imagine if Philly makes that trade and then brings back most of their vets from this  Simmons, Redick, Leonard, Ilyasova, Embiid with Covington, McConnell, Belinelli, Johnson, and Holmes.  That team is stacked and would pose real problems for Boston going forward.

The kid shot 25% on all shots 3 feet and beyond.  He literally can only make layups.  He’s lost a ton of value since the draft.

It goes well beyond injury with him. He’s got mental hangups.
How do you know it isn't all injury related?  He shot 41.3% from three in college and was a decent shooter in summer league.  He got hurt and hasn't shot the same since.  Now maybe he never figures it out, but I find that highly unlikely.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Moranis on April 19, 2018, 11:36:08 AM
Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.
Exactly.  Irving told the Cavs if they didn't trade him he would have surgery to fix his knee.  Maybe he would have come back to the team, or maybe not.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: td450 on April 19, 2018, 12:17:08 PM
Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.
Exactly.  Irving told the Cavs if they didn't trade him he would have surgery to fix his knee.  Maybe he would have come back to the team, or maybe not.
I think the points that equate Kyrie to Kawhi are fair. Kyrie did give up on Cleveland. The differences are that Kyrie has a discernible medical issue and he was transparent with the team about his intentions.

Any player ought to pursue the career they want. No one owes a franchise their entire career. If Kawhi wants out, fine. Just tell the team what you intend to do. Otherwise, deal with your injury like a professional athlete.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Moranis on April 19, 2018, 12:51:06 PM
Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.
Exactly.  Irving told the Cavs if they didn't trade him he would have surgery to fix his knee.  Maybe he would have come back to the team, or maybe not.
I think the points that equate Kyrie to Kawhi are fair. Kyrie did give up on Cleveland. The differences are that Kyrie has a discernible medical issue and he was transparent with the team about his intentions.

Any player ought to pursue the career they want. No one owes a franchise their entire career. If Kawhi wants out, fine. Just tell the team what you intend to do. Otherwise, deal with your injury like a professional athlete.
how do you know he didn't.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Eja117 on April 19, 2018, 01:05:28 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.

So, I’m trying to figure out all the rules here. To avoid being a quitter when refusing to your contract, you must:

1. Demand a trade to a worse team (even if that team had more wins);

2.  Do it before or after the season, but threatening to sit out the season is fine;

3. Be inferior to at least one player on your team;

4. Be unable to deal with egos that are at least as big as your own.

What else?
We (and when I say we I don't mean to include myself) seem to be confusing legit trade demands with refusing to play when perfectly healthy even well past the trade deadline.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 19, 2018, 01:06:29 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.

So, I’m trying to figure out all the rules here. To avoid being a quitter when refusing to your contract, you must:

1. Demand a trade to a worse team (even if that team had more wins);

2.  Do it before or after the season, but threatening to sit out the season is fine;

3. Be inferior to at least one player on your team;

4. Be unable to deal with egos that are at least as big as your own.

What else?
We (and when I say we I don't mean to include myself) seem to be confusing legit trade demands with refusing to play when perfectly healthy even well past the trade deadline.

There's really no such thing as a "legit trade demand".
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: td450 on April 19, 2018, 01:07:33 PM
Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.
Exactly.  Irving told the Cavs if they didn't trade him he would have surgery to fix his knee.  Maybe he would have come back to the team, or maybe not.
I think the points that equate Kyrie to Kawhi are fair. Kyrie did give up on Cleveland. The differences are that Kyrie has a discernible medical issue and he was transparent with the team about his intentions.

Any player ought to pursue the career they want. No one owes a franchise their entire career. If Kawhi wants out, fine. Just tell the team what you intend to do. Otherwise, deal with your injury like a professional athlete.
how do you know he didn't.
I don't know with certainty, but its pretty unlikely that everyone who would know on both sides of the table have kept it quiet. The media attention on this is pretty crazy.

If he did tell the team he wants to leave privately, then good luck to him. We'd find out as soon as they are out of the playoffs.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Moranis on April 19, 2018, 01:09:49 PM
Comparing Kyrie to KL in this case is absurd. Kawhi refused to play. That's the definition of quitting on his team. 

Demanding a trade - after your team has already tried to trade you - is not quitting on your team. It might be anathema to Cavs' fans and eternally butthurt Isaiah Thomas fans, but he didn't quit. He played most of the regular season, then answered the bell in all 18 playoff games, putting up 29 a game in the finals.

It's a preposterous comparison.

He indicated that he would refuse to play going forward.
Exactly.  Irving told the Cavs if they didn't trade him he would have surgery to fix his knee.  Maybe he would have come back to the team, or maybe not.
I think the points that equate Kyrie to Kawhi are fair. Kyrie did give up on Cleveland. The differences are that Kyrie has a discernible medical issue and he was transparent with the team about his intentions.

Any player ought to pursue the career they want. No one owes a franchise their entire career. If Kawhi wants out, fine. Just tell the team what you intend to do. Otherwise, deal with your injury like a professional athlete.
how do you know he didn't.
I don't know with certainty, but its pretty unlikely that everyone who would know on both sides of the table have kept it quiet. The media attention on this is pretty crazy.

If he did tell the team he wants to leave privately, then good luck to him. We'd find out as soon as they are out of the playoffs.
except neither side really has an incentive to release publically that Leonard requested a trade (if he did of course, he might not have). 
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Eja117 on April 19, 2018, 01:21:45 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.

So, I’m trying to figure out all the rules here. To avoid being a quitter when refusing to your contract, you must:

1. Demand a trade to a worse team (even if that team had more wins);

2.  Do it before or after the season, but threatening to sit out the season is fine;

3. Be inferior to at least one player on your team;

4. Be unable to deal with egos that are at least as big as your own.

What else?
We (and when I say we I don't mean to include myself) seem to be confusing legit trade demands with refusing to play when perfectly healthy even well past the trade deadline.

There's really no such thing as a "legit trade demand".
Sure there are. 
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: incoherent on April 19, 2018, 01:29:51 PM
I havent heard Leonard ask for a trade so I dont know why everyone is flipping out. 

Leonard refusing to play is a direct result of multiple and reoccurring bad choices made by the Spurs medical staff.

When you are about to enter your prime and are available to make 200 million dollar contract... you have to be cautious.  Leonard is doing the smart thing in my opinion and being cautious.

No one here can relate to Leonard's mindset.  It's just obvious he doesnt want to get reinjured right before a new contract and entering his prime 27, 28, 29 years.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on April 19, 2018, 02:37:03 PM
I would trade Kyrie for Kawhi straight up....then send Brown/Tatum/Horford for Davis/Mirotic
HAHA...

Rozier
Hayward
Leonard
Davis
Baynes

Bench:
Smart
Mirotic
Morris
Theis
Ojeleye
Bird
Yabusele
Monroe?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Phantom255x on April 19, 2018, 02:38:38 PM
I'm sorry but I like the team as currently constructed without trading away any of these pieces. We have two young studs completely cost controlled. In my opinion, because of the fact we have JT and JB cost controlled for the next 3-4 years, and as a result of the enormous promise they've both shown, there might be only one player I trade them for (and not both in the same package any longer). Anthony Davis. And I'm even second guessing doing that to be honest.

I know everyone wants stats out of Horford but he has never been that guy. He sets our offense up and plays solid fundamental basketball. Because Ainge hit on two young rookies, having Al on an expensive contract works. It won't work forever but it works for the foreseeable future.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/wMY3LjQQMqo5W/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: EJPLAYA on April 19, 2018, 02:44:16 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.
He took the harder path so that makes him a quitter?

So you can quit on your teammates if you go to a worse team?

I guess Kawhi is off the hook if he forces his way to the Knicks or Lakers or something.
I don't see the world class **** on the Spurs. Further the Cavs were hardly "his" team and I hardly think of them as a "team" at all.  Also Kyrie didn't quit on his team in the middle of a season.

Even if Kyrie is a quitter, I suppose you're saying maybe we should move a great team guy for yet another quitter so we can have two of them around. And two guys with apparent health issues.

So, I’m trying to figure out all the rules here. To avoid being a quitter when refusing to your contract, you must:

1. Demand a trade to a worse team (even if that team had more wins);

2.  Do it before or after the season, but threatening to sit out the season is fine;

3. Be inferior to at least one player on your team;

4. Be unable to deal with egos that are at least as big as your own.

What else?
We (and when I say we I don't mean to include myself) seem to be confusing legit trade demands with refusing to play when perfectly healthy even well past the trade deadline.

There's really no such thing as a "legit trade demand".
I disagree. Many times a great player is in a situation where they get drafted by a team who really isn't committed or capable of ever putting a contender on the floor. A player who had no choice in where he ended up shouldn't be locked into them for life and considered a quitter for not wanting to stay there. It is in the teams best interest actually for a player who does not intend to resign with that team to let the team know they would like to be traded which gives the team an opportunity to get something for them vs nothing. Kyrie allowed them to get players and picks vs walking later. Hayward on the other hand left and the Jazz got nothing for it. I am sure the Jazz were certain they could keep him, however I am betting they would have rather traded Hayward to the C's for something.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on April 19, 2018, 03:19:55 PM
I'm sorry but I like the team as currently constructed without trading away any of these pieces. We have two young studs completely cost controlled. In my opinion, because of the fact we have JT and JB cost controlled for the next 3-4 years, and as a result of the enormous promise they've both shown, there might be only one player I trade them for (and not both in the same package any longer). Anthony Davis. And I'm even second guessing doing that to be honest.

I know everyone wants stats out of Horford but he has never been that guy. He sets our offense up and plays solid fundamental basketball. Because Ainge hit on two young rookies, having Al on an expensive contract works. It won't work forever but it works for the foreseeable future.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/wMY3LjQQMqo5W/giphy.gif)

Yep.

Coaches will have nightmares before a matchup against Irving-Hayward-Brown-Tatum-Horford.

Think of the relief they will feel when Terry "I might make four 3s in 8 minutes" Rozier comes in the game for Irving. Or when Marcus "I will ruin your entire offensive set" Smart subs in for Brown. Or when Marcus "I am the best player on the court in any game" Morris subs in for Tatum. Or when Greg "I can't believe this NBA era has made a guy of my talents a bench player" Morris subs in for Horford.

Seriously, what mismatch do you attack against that team? Maybe Monroe in the pick-and-roll? Maybe Kyrie Irving? Seriously, who do you stick your worst defender on? 40% from 3 Al Horford? Jaylen Brown who is almost 40% from three and can bully small defenders?

If you go big, the Celtics will abuse you bigs on the perimeter. If you go small, the Cs will stick Hayward, Brown, Tatum, or Horford in the post (whoever has the best matchup).

Your defense doesn't have to matchup with one shot creator, 3 shooters, and a roll man. Your defense has to matchup with 5 shot creators who can all shoot, drive, and pass.

I like Leonard and Davis and other upper tier guys, but I'm confident that this team could beat anyone in a 7 game series. You don't mess with that.

Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Erik on April 19, 2018, 03:56:40 PM
I wonder if Rozier, Morris and S&T with Marcus Smart + whatever draft picks they want gets Kahwi. Obviously it's not an equal package, but Kahwi is disgruntled and hell we got Kyrie for essentially 1 lotto pick. Sac 19 is most likely going to be about the same as BRK18. Plus you can throw in all of the other picks. That's a lot of assets. I initially thought that it's way too little, but the more I think about it, it seems super fair.

It would make us the frontrunners for a very long time:
Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Leonard, Horford + every vet who wants to win a title.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Phantom255x on April 19, 2018, 04:06:18 PM
I wonder if Rozier, Morris and S&T with Marcus Smart + whatever draft picks they want gets Kahwi. Obviously it's not an equal package, but Kahwi is disgruntled and hell we got Kyrie for essentially 1 lotto pick. Sac 19 is most likely going to be about the same as BRK18. Plus you can throw in all of the other picks. That's a lot of assets. I initially thought that it's way too little, but the more I think about it, it seems super fair.

It would make us the frontrunners for a very long time:
Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Leonard, Horford + every vet who wants to win a title.

1. Who are our backup guards?

2. How does our bench look without Morris and both Rozier+Smart? Pretty weak/thin.

3. I wish it could work, but I think other teams beat that offer UNLESS Spurs are super high on Rozier (which they very well could be). Lakers and Sixers could and probably would offer more. 
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Erik on April 19, 2018, 04:12:40 PM
I wonder if Rozier, Morris and S&T with Marcus Smart + whatever draft picks they want gets Kahwi. Obviously it's not an equal package, but Kahwi is disgruntled and hell we got Kyrie for essentially 1 lotto pick. Sac 19 is most likely going to be about the same as BRK18. Plus you can throw in all of the other picks. That's a lot of assets. I initially thought that it's way too little, but the more I think about it, it seems super fair.

It would make us the frontrunners for a very long time:
Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, Leonard, Horford + every vet who wants to win a title.

1. Who are our backup guards?

2. How does our bench look without Morris and both Rozier+Smart? Pretty weak/thin.

3. I wish it could work, but I think other teams beat that offer UNLESS Spurs are super high on Rozier (which they very well could be). Lakers and Sixers could and probably would offer more.

1) Realistically, who cares? Either our own draft pick or just pickup a dj Augustin for the vet minimum.

2) See #1. There are a lot of players in the league that are dirt cheap that can give you 15 quality minutes -- Theis, Baynes and Ojeleye would be there still.

3) Lakers don't have anything, really. They have no lotto picks anymore and I'd rather have Sac19 than even Lonzo Ball (their best asset, actually). They'd have to give up both Lonzo and Ingram, and I don't see them doing it. Philly would have to give up Saric, LAL18 and Fultz? I think our offer is still better to a team like SAS who would want the proven players.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 19, 2018, 04:42:54 PM
Quote
A player who had no choice in where he ended up shouldn't be locked into them for life and considered a quitter for not wanting to stay there.

Agreed. Fortunately for such players, no player is “locked in” to a team “for life”.  All they’re required to do is fulfill their first contract.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: green_bballers13 on April 19, 2018, 06:36:52 PM
Quote
Never heard of a superstar pulling this act with a class organization



And, there’s a certain hypocrisy among fans who embrace Kyrie (broke up a title contender) but criticize Kawhi.
Wait. Where's the soul sucking diva teammate in San Antonio? Oh. Wait. Kawhi is the diva in San Antonio.  Everyone understands not wanting to play with Bron. Nobody understands, or should try to understand, quitting. Kawhi is a quitter.

Kyrie quit on his team, too.  "I didn't want to play next to the best player in the world and make the Finals every year" isn't all that great of an excuse.

You have been on the record as a supporter of IT (with the Celtics for this year and beyond), while an early critic of both Irving and Rozier. Has this changed?

RE: Leonard, I don't feel like jumping in on the public beating. He's quiet, which enables the blog boys (us) to pontificate about this or that without any recourse. I hope he comes back healthy for the rest of his career. I like his style of play.

I imagine it will take quite a package to acquire him, so I'm fine if the  Celtics stay put with Brown and Tatum.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: EJPLAYA on April 19, 2018, 07:10:30 PM
Quote
A player who had no choice in where he ended up shouldn't be locked into them for life and considered a quitter for not wanting to stay there.

Agreed. Fortunately for such players, no player is “locked in” to a team “for life”.  All they’re required to do is fulfill their first contract.
yes, but the meat of the argument however is that it is actually in the best interest of the team to have an unhappy player give them some advanced warning that they aren't going to resign. It should of course be done internally vs the media however so it doesn't become a negative for the player and the team. Thoughts on that?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: nickagneta on April 19, 2018, 07:16:43 PM
If a player doesn't want to play for an organization any longer, I have no problem with what they do to force the hand of the organization to trade them. You hope a simple request by the player to the team gets the job done but sometimes other things have to be said and done. So be it.

I don't consider those players quitters. I consider them pkayers that don't want to work for their employer anymore. They owe nothing to the other employees at that organuzation whether that be front office people, medical staff, training staff, coaching staff or players. They owe it to themselves to let it be known they want to play someplace else.

So no Kawhi is not a quitter. Neither is Kyrie. Neither is Greg Monroe. Neither is Eric Bledsoe. Neither is Carmelo Anthony. Neither is Dwyane Wade. Neither is any player that asked for a trade, requested a trade, requested a buyout and received one or stopped playing until they forced a trade.

As for the Saric and Fultz and picks being better than Tatum and Rozier and picks, I will let you know my opinion on that after I stop laughing.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Big333223 on April 19, 2018, 09:24:06 PM
I'm a little confused by the conversation in this thread. Have we had confirmation about why Kawhi isn't playing? As far as I've read, it could be anything from "he's injured" to "it's in his head" to "there's nothing wrong, he's a diva."

Until I hear for sure what the actual situation is, I'm not going to judge him or the organization but I will be scared of making a deal for him. And I'm not super comfortable paying a lot for a guy in any of those 3 situations.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: gouki88 on April 19, 2018, 09:27:37 PM
I'm a little confused by the conversation in this thread. Have we had confirmation about why Kawhi isn't playing? As far as I've read, it could be anything from "he's injured" to "it's in his head" to "there's nothing wrong, he's a diva."

Until I hear for sure what the actual situation is, I'm not going to judge him or the organization but I will be scared of making a deal for him. And I'm not super comfortable paying a lot for a guy in any of those 3 situations.
There is no confirmation, lol.

Kawhi being probably the most quiet NBA star we've seen in decades, if not ever, is certainly not helping
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Eja117 on April 19, 2018, 09:36:48 PM
If a player doesn't want to play for an organization any longer, I have no problem with what they do to force the hand of the organization to trade them. You hope a simple request by the player to the team gets the job done but sometimes other things have to be said and done. So be it.

I don't consider those players quitters. I consider them pkayers that don't want to work for their employer anymore. They owe nothing to the other employees at that organuzation whether that be front office people, medical staff, training staff, coaching staff or players. They owe it to themselves to let it be known they want to play someplace else.

So no Kawhi is not a quitter. Neither is Kyrie. Neither is Greg Monroe. Neither is Eric Bledsoe. Neither is Carmelo Anthony. Neither is Dwyane Wade. Neither is any player that asked for a trade, requested a trade, requested a buyout and received one or stopped playing until they forced a trade.

As for the Saric and Fultz and picks being better than Tatum and Rozier and picks, I will let you know my opinion on that after I stop laughing.
We have no evidence of a Kawhi trade demand that I know of. I tried to double check that. Maybe I'm wrong. So we have a guy who hasn't demanded a trade, is perfectly healthy, and refuses to play. That's quitting. It's closer to a hold out, only the hold out is mid season out of the blue because suddenly he was unhappy and it's not even about money. It's just diva behavior. Hopefully he doesn't get a season of vesting towards his pension
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Ogaju on April 19, 2018, 09:41:30 PM
I'm a little confused by the conversation in this thread. Have we had confirmation about why Kawhi isn't playing? As far as I've read, it could be anything from "he's injured" to "it's in his head" to "there's nothing wrong, he's a diva."

Until I hear for sure what the actual situation is, I'm not going to judge him or the organization but I will be scared of making a deal for him. And I'm not super comfortable paying a lot for a guy in any of those 3 situations.
There is no confirmation, lol.

Kawhi being probably the most quiet NBA star we've seen in decades, if not ever, is certainly not helping

More quiet than Duncan?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: gouki88 on April 19, 2018, 09:44:12 PM
I'm a little confused by the conversation in this thread. Have we had confirmation about why Kawhi isn't playing? As far as I've read, it could be anything from "he's injured" to "it's in his head" to "there's nothing wrong, he's a diva."

Until I hear for sure what the actual situation is, I'm not going to judge him or the organization but I will be scared of making a deal for him. And I'm not super comfortable paying a lot for a guy in any of those 3 situations.
There is no confirmation, lol.

Kawhi being probably the most quiet NBA star we've seen in decades, if not ever, is certainly not helping

More quiet than Duncan?
I'd say so. Duncan was laid back, but he'd still talk a fair amount.

TD doesn't have videos like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRS6o6_fxMU
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: nickagneta on April 19, 2018, 09:51:44 PM
If a player doesn't want to play for an organization any longer, I have no problem with what they do to force the hand of the organization to trade them. You hope a simple request by the player to the team gets the job done but sometimes other things have to be said and done. So be it.

I don't consider those players quitters. I consider them pkayers that don't want to work for their employer anymore. They owe nothing to the other employees at that organuzation whether that be front office people, medical staff, training staff, coaching staff or players. They owe it to themselves to let it be known they want to play someplace else.

So no Kawhi is not a quitter. Neither is Kyrie. Neither is Greg Monroe. Neither is Eric Bledsoe. Neither is Carmelo Anthony. Neither is Dwyane Wade. Neither is any player that asked for a trade, requested a trade, requested a buyout and received one or stopped playing until they forced a trade.

As for the Saric and Fultz and picks being better than Tatum and Rozier and picks, I will let you know my opinion on that after I stop laughing.
We have no evidence of a Kawhi trade demand that I know of. I tried to double check that. Maybe I'm wrong. So we have a guy who hasn't demanded a trade, is perfectly healthy, and refuses to play. That's quitting. It's closer to a hold out, only the hold out is mid season out of the blue because suddenly he was unhappy and it's not even about money. It's just diva behavior. Hopefully he doesn't get a season of vesting towards his pension
We also have no evidence he is completely healthy. Kinda jumping the gun on that assumption eja.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Eja117 on April 19, 2018, 10:00:31 PM
If a player doesn't want to play for an organization any longer, I have no problem with what they do to force the hand of the organization to trade them. You hope a simple request by the player to the team gets the job done but sometimes other things have to be said and done. So be it.

I don't consider those players quitters. I consider them pkayers that don't want to work for their employer anymore. They owe nothing to the other employees at that organuzation whether that be front office people, medical staff, training staff, coaching staff or players. They owe it to themselves to let it be known they want to play someplace else.

So no Kawhi is not a quitter. Neither is Kyrie. Neither is Greg Monroe. Neither is Eric Bledsoe. Neither is Carmelo Anthony. Neither is Dwyane Wade. Neither is any player that asked for a trade, requested a trade, requested a buyout and received one or stopped playing until they forced a trade.

As for the Saric and Fultz and picks being better than Tatum and Rozier and picks, I will let you know my opinion on that after I stop laughing.
We have no evidence of a Kawhi trade demand that I know of. I tried to double check that. Maybe I'm wrong. So we have a guy who hasn't demanded a trade, is perfectly healthy, and refuses to play. That's quitting. It's closer to a hold out, only the hold out is mid season out of the blue because suddenly he was unhappy and it's not even about money. It's just diva behavior. Hopefully he doesn't get a season of vesting towards his pension
We also have no evidence he is completely healthy. Kinda jumping the gun on that assumption eja.
The Spurs seem to think he's totally healthy and that's why this is a thing. I haven't looked if this is based on anonymous sources, but if he really is hurt why aren't they supporting him? Why aren't they publicly stating "This guy is really hurt and is doing everything he can to come back"?  It's a quad injury right? What's that? Six weeks? He was supposed to be back around the all star break right?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Phantom255x on April 19, 2018, 10:02:24 PM
I haven't watched it (yet), but First Take discussed what Ainge should do in the "Kawhi sweepstakes". Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTi3iTBrzQM
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 19, 2018, 10:07:30 PM
Quote
It's a quad injury right? What's that? Six weeks?

Tony Parker’s took 8 months to heal.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Eja117 on April 19, 2018, 11:22:33 PM
Quote
It's a quad injury right? What's that? Six weeks?

Tony Parker’s took 8 months to heal.
So why isn't Kawhi and his camp singing from the mountains he's not healed? Where are the doctors on this? Why would Pop throw his best player under the bus? Why would his teammates not be backing him up? Why wouldn't they want to be as cautious as possible with this amazing first team all NBA guy? Why did they say he'd be back months ago?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Eja117 on April 19, 2018, 11:25:15 PM
Quote
It's a quad injury right? What's that? Six weeks?

Tony Parker’s took 8 months to heal.
Parker is on record saying his was 100 times worse.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: azzenfrost on April 20, 2018, 12:07:00 AM
This is what I don't like about the whole thing. There isn't a lot of communication.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: nickagneta on April 20, 2018, 12:07:17 AM
Quote
It's a quad injury right? What's that? Six weeks?

Tony Parker’s took 8 months to heal.
So why isn't Kawhi and his camp singing from the mountains he's not healed? Where are the doctors on this? Why would Pop throw his best player under the bus? Why would his teammates not be backing him up? Why wouldn't they want to be as cautious as possible with this amazing first team all NBA guy? Why did they say he'd be back months ago?
Kawhi is in NY receiving medical treatment for his quad injury. I am sure he isn't faking an injury and putting on an act to prove it by seeing a bunch of different doctors and receiving treatment. Pop is going by what his medical staff is telling him so he is refering questions to Kawhi's team of doctors. It wouldn't be the first time a team's doctors were wrong about an injury, you can look no farther than the Celtics handling of IT last year and KG in 2009 to see that. So obviously his teammates don't know what's going on and it angers them so they are lashing out.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: nickagneta on April 20, 2018, 12:09:07 AM
Quote
It's a quad injury right? What's that? Six weeks?

Tony Parker’s took 8 months to heal.
Parker is on record saying his was 100 times worse.
And how would he know that if he isn't Kawhi? That sounds like sonething a therapist said to him so he repeated it. Just dumb thing for Parker to say.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: GreenEnvy on April 20, 2018, 03:01:40 AM
Of course you look at a guy like Kawhi or AD and fantasize about the possibilities. But we don’t know the price it’ll cost to obtain them.

I’m totally fine keeping who we have and clawing our way to the championship. I believe this team is capable. And we need the homegrown talent.

KG and Ray were amazing. But 2008 was Paul’s, because Paul is ours. Always was.

Yeah I want to see Al win one, and Kyrie lead us. Seeing Hayward and Brad celebrate together will feel nothing but right, only about a decade late. Morris is the grit and Baynes the muscle.

But whether it’s this year, next, or further down the road.... seeing Smart, Brown, Tatum, and/or Rozier hoody that Larry O’Brien trophy will be all the more special.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Celtics4ever on April 20, 2018, 06:41:58 AM
This is ESPN making a story where there is none.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Eja117 on April 20, 2018, 08:16:20 AM
I'm just not buying the theory that the Spurs have suddenly gone from being a top notch organization to one that just gets mad at its star player for no real reason other than to pick on him and lower his trade value, and that suddenly the Spurs don't value the health of their top player and want to suddenly start taking risks with his body. When it was stated that he was due back around the all star break nobody said "Woah woah woah. That could be way too soon."  Now here were are months later and maybe the Spurs are rushing him. I get that Kawhi could easily have the last laugh here. Maybe he will. Maybe he won't.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Moranis on April 20, 2018, 08:36:11 AM
Quote
It's a quad injury right? What's that? Six weeks?

Tony Parker’s took 8 months to heal.
Parker is on record saying his was 100 times worse.
And how would he know that if he isn't Kawhi? That sounds like sonething a therapist said to him so he repeated it. Just dumb thing for Parker to say.
In addition sometimes a worse injury actually heals faster than a lesser injury.  Think a clean break vs. a severe sprain.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: iadera on April 20, 2018, 09:06:57 AM
Boston does not need Kawhi

Hell yeah! We can discuss about AD, but Kawhi is out of the question, if we consider Brown/Tatum in package.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on April 20, 2018, 10:10:16 AM
Too many question marks on Kawhi for me at the moment. I wouldn't trade any of our top young players for him. You put a package around those young players when Kawhi is in top shape and performing. Not when he's surrounded by question marks.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Alleyoopster on April 20, 2018, 10:58:13 AM
Trading for him is a poor idea. We already have two highly paid players who we are not sure of how their injury status will play out in the coming year. We don't need a third.

Even if we trade Hayward for him, I wouldn't do it. Kawhi's injury appears to be chronic and he's only 27.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: mutineer33 on April 20, 2018, 03:04:38 PM
I guess, in the interest of forum harmony, we need to accept alternate viewpoints, and not ridicule too strongly dumb ideas.  But it boggles my mind that we are currently in the dam playoffs and we should be talking about that and how hopefully we can get by the bucks and can look at future match ups,  and watch how our own young stars mature and develop.  The future of the East is between Boston and Philly and we might get the first shots in this renewed rivalry this year.  I look forward to this even if we are undermanned. This is a time to get behind our guys and see how they perform under the bright lights

Instead we are getting multiple threads about trading our youngest and brightest stars (who are busting their butts in the playoffs as we speak) for a malcontent who has literally quit on his team and left them totally outgunned in the playoffs. KL was a great player but now he looks like a guy with an entitlement problem ... already making 20 million+ ... who let his team, management, and fans down this year by refusing to play.  It will not happen, but they should claw back his entire salary this year for non-performance.

There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

I don't want him on the team, and I certainly am not going to trade JB AND JT for him. For that matter I would not trade either one for him.  I would be happy to have Philly overpay for him and then watch JB abuse him for the next few years ... I bet lots of "quad ssues" when those match-ups come up.

More importantly, I am more concerned about the game tonight and learning how far this team can go this year.

Leave the "Trader Danny" crap for the off season ... and even then hopefully we can learn to appreciate what he have more ... rather than obsessing over whatever next big name might avaliable. 

With all the constant trade speculation (even In the playoffs) sometimes I wonder how much some "fans" here  care about the team and players itself and whether they just see the sport as being something closer to Fantasy Hoops ... click bait and name dropping.

At some point,  we need to try to  change our team culture to something that rewards loyalty, and gets people to WANT to resign here rather than trolling their name through every twitter rumor.

I aplogize if this post comes across as a bit acerbic , but it's the playoffs

Enjoy.

Save the dumb trade ideas for silly season.

Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 20, 2018, 04:58:39 PM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on April 20, 2018, 05:08:34 PM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Amen.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Celtics4ever on April 20, 2018, 05:30:28 PM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.

I think this is completely understandable, given LeBron's attitude...
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: mutineer33 on April 20, 2018, 09:09:13 PM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Neurotic Guy on April 20, 2018, 09:13:51 PM
Wrong Thread
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: RockinRyA on April 20, 2018, 09:24:37 PM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 20, 2018, 09:37:09 PM
Quote
Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later,

It would be interesting to see if there was the same level of cognitive dissonance if Kyrie had threatened to sit out to force his way to the Knicks.


Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Eja117 on April 20, 2018, 09:55:36 PM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.
One guy basically said in the off season "I want to be traded."  The other guy it's like the equivalent of getting banged up in the game and coming to the sideline and the trainer tapes him all up and says "Ok. You're good to go. Get back in there." and the player says "Oh no I'm not. I've got my own people on this. I'm not getting back in there. i have free agency coming up." Then all the teammates and coaches say "Woah dude. The game is going on right now. You need to get in there now" and he says "Nope. I'm going to NYC to work on this."

One guy wanted to be traded. The other quit.

Also I don't get this point where you didn't want Kyrie, but now you do want Kawhi, but others are being hypocritical.  I'm not getting that at all. In one case you didn't want to trade an injured older guy whose contract was coming up, but now you do want to trade a healthy young great player who's under a great contract for years for a hurt player, but for some reason that makes others inconsistent? 
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: tenn_smoothie on April 20, 2018, 10:16:27 PM
what is wrong with you people ?

the only future i want for Brown and Tatum is to have #7 & #0 in the rafters one day with five or six titles between them.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: mutineer33 on April 20, 2018, 11:02:47 PM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: nickagneta on April 21, 2018, 12:26:56 AM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: gouki88 on April 21, 2018, 12:30:12 AM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.
After seeing the complete disaster that has been IT’s last 12 months I cannot blame Kawhi one bit
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on April 21, 2018, 12:45:18 AM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

I recently talked with a neuropsychologist that did a lot of the concussion testing for the Cleveland Browns some years ago.  I asked how often he suspected that guys would 'fake good' to get back on the field.  He said the opposite was actually more common -- guys 'faking bad' to avoid further injury, especially in a contract year. 

I don't know how often it occurs or whether there's a difference in sports.  But there's no doubt a strong incentive for players to protect their health for longevity.  Worse, with how often trade demands have been granted lately, it seems like players have an increasingly ability to use health issues/treatment as leverage. 

I agree with you that players should listen to their bodies and get as many opinions as they can.  But at what point does the player gain too much power in these decisions?  When does ownership lose their ability to manage a team and its players?  What safeguards can be put into place so that a player doesn't collect $20 million in a season for not playing by choice rather than necessity?
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: nickagneta on April 21, 2018, 01:02:08 AM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

I recently talked with a neuropsychologist that did a lot of the concussion testing for the Cleveland Browns some years ago.  I asked how often he suspected that guys would 'fake good' to get back on the field.  He said the opposite was actually more common -- guys 'faking bad' to avoid further injury, especially in a contract year. 

I don't know how often it occurs or whether there's a difference in sports.  But there's no doubt a strong incentive for players to protect their health for longevity.  Worse, with how often trade demands have been granted lately, it seems like players have an increasingly ability to use health issues/treatment as leverage. 

I agree with you that players should listen to their bodies and get as many opinions as they can.  But at what point does the player gain too much power in these decisions?  When does ownership lose their ability to manage a team and its players?  What safeguards can be put into place so that a player doesn't collect $20 million in a season for not playing by choice rather than necessity?
I have 3 friends who are ex-pro athletes. I have two friends deep in Division I sports. Have to say I don't believe your doctor friend based on stories I have heard. Players want to play and almost all the time have to be held back against their will so they don't try to play while injured and injure themselves more.

And ultimately, it is ALWAYS, the player that has last say as to when he or she can return once they get injured. Medical staffs are beholden to teams and make decisions based on the best interests of the team. It is the player that has to make the best decision based on their best interests.

That's what Kawhi is doing here. That's not quitting. That's doing what is in his best interest.

What happens if in 2 months they discover he has some degenerative tendon disease and if he had played he could have done permanent damage to his leg? Everyone is going to seem pretty stupid then. Look at what happened to IT. The team said play through it, it won't be anything that can't be fixed through resting in the off season. He played. It got worse. He tried rest. It didn't work. He now needs surgery and now he will be about $100 million less rich.

Players gotta look out for themselves, first and foremost, then the team after that.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on April 21, 2018, 01:57:42 AM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

I recently talked with a neuropsychologist that did a lot of the concussion testing for the Cleveland Browns some years ago.  I asked how often he suspected that guys would 'fake good' to get back on the field.  He said the opposite was actually more common -- guys 'faking bad' to avoid further injury, especially in a contract year. 

I don't know how often it occurs or whether there's a difference in sports.  But there's no doubt a strong incentive for players to protect their health for longevity.  Worse, with how often trade demands have been granted lately, it seems like players have an increasingly ability to use health issues/treatment as leverage. 

I agree with you that players should listen to their bodies and get as many opinions as they can.  But at what point does the player gain too much power in these decisions?  When does ownership lose their ability to manage a team and its players?  What safeguards can be put into place so that a player doesn't collect $20 million in a season for not playing by choice rather than necessity?
I have 3 friends who are ex-pro athletes. I have two friends deep in Division I sports. Have to say I don't believe your doctor friend based on stories I have heard. Players want to play and almost all the time have to be held back against their will so they don't try to play while injured and injure themselves more.

And ultimately, it is ALWAYS, the player that has last say as to when he or she can return once they get injured. Medical staffs are beholden to teams and make decisions based on the best interests of the team. It is the player that has to make the best decision based on their best interests.

That's what Kawhi is doing here. That's not quitting. That's doing what is in his best interest.

What happens if in 2 months they discover he has some degenerative tendon disease and if he had played he could have done permanent damage to his leg? Everyone is going to seem pretty stupid then. Look at what happened to IT. The team said play through it, it won't be anything that can't be fixed through resting in the off season. He played. It got worse. He tried rest. It didn't work. He now needs surgery and now he will be about $100 million less rich.

Players gotta look out for themselves, first and foremost, then the team after that.

Can't help but think that you're Kawhi, with the dual-goal of becoming a CsBlog mod AND getting traded to the Celts within the same year.  (kidding)

I'd like to not believe him, mostly because it was in the context of an interview for a position that I didn't get.  I have a lot more familiarity with DI athletes and witnessed what you described -- athletes wanting to play regardless of the condition or risks.  I had wrist/arm surgery shortly after the college football season let out, and the surgeon mentioned that he operates on a lot of players -- top ranked DI program -- right after the season lets out, as they play through injury out of fear that they'll lose their spot.  That sounds brutal but well within reason -- high level of competition with a lot to lose, esp with how NFL contracts are stratified based on draft position, and the much shorter shelf-life.

But I wonder if there's a marked difference between athletes fighting for their spot (both college and pro) vs. those that have reached a very high level of status.  I wish IT had shut it down last season.  But I also think he had maxed out his production at the NBA level and was never really considered a star to the tune of Kyrie or Kawhi.  He may well have thought it was necessary for him to play for his next contract, and miscalculated the pros vs. cons.  On the other hand, I can't help but call into question Kyrie threatening to have surgery when his trade request wasn't immediately met (and then didn't have the surgery till just now), and Kawhi playing sporadically throughout the season (after being cleared much sooner) only to shut it down much later on.  I don't know either of their medical issues, but it's very hard not to question their actions, especially in light of their status.  Kyrie did get his trade, and bias aside, to arguably the best situation in the NBA.  In the same vein, Kawhi can probably choose among a short list of teams he wants to play for if he demands it.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Celtics4ever on April 21, 2018, 06:48:31 AM
Quote
I have 3 friends who are ex-pro athletes. I have two friends deep in Division I sports. Have to say I don't believe your doctor friend based on stories I have heard. Players want to play and almost all the time have to be held back against their will so they don't try to play while injured and injure themselves more.

I think it depends on the player and situation.   Some guys love to play and some guys are there for the money.   A lot of guys who make it there are bench bound and they want to play.   A superstar who is a set commodity does not have as much to prove.  But I agree a lot of them probably want on the field or court.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: mctyson on April 21, 2018, 09:01:58 AM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

I recently talked with a neuropsychologist that did a lot of the concussion testing for the Cleveland Browns some years ago.  I asked how often he suspected that guys would 'fake good' to get back on the field.  He said the opposite was actually more common -- guys 'faking bad' to avoid further injury, especially in a contract year. 

I don't know how often it occurs or whether there's a difference in sports.  But there's no doubt a strong incentive for players to protect their health for longevity.  Worse, with how often trade demands have been granted lately, it seems like players have an increasingly ability to use health issues/treatment as leverage. 

I agree with you that players should listen to their bodies and get as many opinions as they can.  But at what point does the player gain too much power in these decisions?  When does ownership lose their ability to manage a team and its players?  What safeguards can be put into place so that a player doesn't collect $20 million in a season for not playing by choice rather than necessity?
I have 3 friends who are ex-pro athletes. I have two friends deep in Division I sports. Have to say I don't believe your doctor friend based on stories I have heard. Players want to play and almost all the time have to be held back against their will so they don't try to play while injured and injure themselves more.

And ultimately, it is ALWAYS, the player that has last say as to when he or she can return once they get injured. Medical staffs are beholden to teams and make decisions based on the best interests of the team. It is the player that has to make the best decision based on their best interests.

That's what Kawhi is doing here. That's not quitting. That's doing what is in his best interest.

What happens if in 2 months they discover he has some degenerative tendon disease and if he had played he could have done permanent damage to his leg? Everyone is going to seem pretty stupid then. Look at what happened to IT. The team said play through it, it won't be anything that can't be fixed through resting in the off season. He played. It got worse. He tried rest. It didn't work. He now needs surgery and now he will be about $100 million less rich.

Players gotta look out for themselves, first and foremost, then the team after that.

The players who choose this motto are the last people you give max contracts to.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 21, 2018, 09:11:59 AM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

I recently talked with a neuropsychologist that did a lot of the concussion testing for the Cleveland Browns some years ago.  I asked how often he suspected that guys would 'fake good' to get back on the field.  He said the opposite was actually more common -- guys 'faking bad' to avoid further injury, especially in a contract year. 

I don't know how often it occurs or whether there's a difference in sports.  But there's no doubt a strong incentive for players to protect their health for longevity.  Worse, with how often trade demands have been granted lately, it seems like players have an increasingly ability to use health issues/treatment as leverage. 

I agree with you that players should listen to their bodies and get as many opinions as they can.  But at what point does the player gain too much power in these decisions?  When does ownership lose their ability to manage a team and its players?  What safeguards can be put into place so that a player doesn't collect $20 million in a season for not playing by choice rather than necessity?
I have 3 friends who are ex-pro athletes. I have two friends deep in Division I sports. Have to say I don't believe your doctor friend based on stories I have heard. Players want to play and almost all the time have to be held back against their will so they don't try to play while injured and injure themselves more.

And ultimately, it is ALWAYS, the player that has last say as to when he or she can return once they get injured. Medical staffs are beholden to teams and make decisions based on the best interests of the team. It is the player that has to make the best decision based on their best interests.

That's what Kawhi is doing here. That's not quitting. That's doing what is in his best interest.

What happens if in 2 months they discover he has some degenerative tendon disease and if he had played he could have done permanent damage to his leg? Everyone is going to seem pretty stupid then. Look at what happened to IT. The team said play through it, it won't be anything that can't be fixed through resting in the off season. He played. It got worse. He tried rest. It didn't work. He now needs surgery and now he will be about $100 million less rich.

Players gotta look out for themselves, first and foremost, then the team after that.

The players who choose this motto are the last people you give max contracts to.

Kyrie did.  8)
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: RockinRyA on April 21, 2018, 09:20:40 AM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

I recently talked with a neuropsychologist that did a lot of the concussion testing for the Cleveland Browns some years ago.  I asked how often he suspected that guys would 'fake good' to get back on the field.  He said the opposite was actually more common -- guys 'faking bad' to avoid further injury, especially in a contract year. 

I don't know how often it occurs or whether there's a difference in sports.  But there's no doubt a strong incentive for players to protect their health for longevity.  Worse, with how often trade demands have been granted lately, it seems like players have an increasingly ability to use health issues/treatment as leverage. 

I agree with you that players should listen to their bodies and get as many opinions as they can.  But at what point does the player gain too much power in these decisions?  When does ownership lose their ability to manage a team and its players?  What safeguards can be put into place so that a player doesn't collect $20 million in a season for not playing by choice rather than necessity?
I have 3 friends who are ex-pro athletes. I have two friends deep in Division I sports. Have to say I don't believe your doctor friend based on stories I have heard. Players want to play and almost all the time have to be held back against their will so they don't try to play while injured and injure themselves more.

And ultimately, it is ALWAYS, the player that has last say as to when he or she can return once they get injured. Medical staffs are beholden to teams and make decisions based on the best interests of the team. It is the player that has to make the best decision based on their best interests.

That's what Kawhi is doing here. That's not quitting. That's doing what is in his best interest.

What happens if in 2 months they discover he has some degenerative tendon disease and if he had played he could have done permanent damage to his leg? Everyone is going to seem pretty stupid then. Look at what happened to IT. The team said play through it, it won't be anything that can't be fixed through resting in the off season. He played. It got worse. He tried rest. It didn't work. He now needs surgery and now he will be about $100 million less rich.

Players gotta look out for themselves, first and foremost, then the team after that.

The players who choose this motto are the last people you give max contracts to.

I'm willing to bet if it was your health and well-being on the line you wouldnt say that.

Just look at IT, he practically traded a better career for what, to go further by 1 more round? I cannot believe people are so willingly open to risks when it is not their own body on the line.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 21, 2018, 09:29:20 AM
Quote
There is nothing remotely similar with Kyries trade request .... which was done in the off season and had a preexisting condition everyone was already aware of.  He also wanted to leave for legacy issues and getting out of LBJ'S shadow.  Kawhi is simply worried that he might have an injury linger into next season and ONLY cares about how this might theoretically affect  his next big paycheck, while not not even trying to earn his current on,

So one “quit” due to ego, and the other due to the desire not to see his career shortened due to injury?

Kyrie did a bad thing, if you care about loyalty to one’s team. Kawhi potentially is doing a bad thing, too. It just doesn’t make sense to hold loyalty and honoring one’s contract as sacrosanct in one case, but not the other.

Sorry, but offering a false premise and then someone saying "Amen" to it, does nothing to make the statement correct. I also am not feeling the Kyrie hate coming from you guys either.

Kyrie never "quit" anything. He verbalized a desire for change in the off season, and backed that with the simple fact he needed surgery sooner rather than later, and that might eventually be a better route than playing his last year on a team that had already been shopping him, and a team he had no interest in playing for.  He gave his franchise ample prewarning, a robust list of teams he would prefer to go to, and let management get on with getting the best deal they could get. By the end they got what most people considered a kings ransom for him.

He "quit" on Noone ... not a single game ...  and after the trade muddled through 75% of the regular season on a bum wheel before he AND management decided to just get things fixed this year and be back 100% next year, when Hayward is hopefully back and the young ones ... get some seasoning this year.

There is no record of him quitting on anyone ... in Cleveland or Boston.

Kawhi on the other hand, QUIT.  He received doctors clearance from what most people believe to be one of the most upright and professional organizations in professional sports.

He still quit. 

Reportedly his teammates, some being legendary veterans in the twilight of their careers, begged him to play.

He still quit.

He quit through most of the regular seasons and apparently all the playoffs too.

Why? 

He does not want to risk his potential supermax bonus .... and apparently this is the major issue.

Perhaps it was a blackmailing attempt to force the spurs hand on this.  He took millions to not play and left his team, teammates, and paying fans in the lurch. Maybe he was just being extra cautious. But whatever it was ... he quit.

I don't want this self-entitled clown anywhere near Celtics Green, unless it is images of him still in black and getting posterized by JT and JB etc.

The Continued attempts to parallel this with Kyrie's desire for mobility and getting out of LBJs shadow (and get some real coaching) .... bear no comparison to Kawhi sabotage of his team.

I don't mean to sound so Cantankerous, I just find the comparison  incredibly weak.

Game 3 cannot start soon enough .... tonight will be tough.

He didnt quit. He hasn't even started. Easy for people like you to risk other peiple's livelihood. His injury was mismanaged by the staff, why should he continue to trust them?! If it was you you'd risk millions despite being mismanaged by their doctors? That's dumb.

Nonsense.  He is being payed many millions to do his job ... this year.  He is refusing to do that. If you think that San Antonio medical staff and external doctors mismanaged his case, you need to post credible references/proof.
The proof is he is still in pain, receiving medical treatment and having doctors do more and more tests to get a 100% accurate diagnosis as to why Kawhi is in pain and feels the knee is not right.

Team medical staffs get diagnosis' wrong a bunch. Do we have to look any farther than the Celtics own medical staff and the way they handled IT last year and KG in 2009? The Boston medical staff may have cost Thomas $100 million.

Its incumbant upon a player that if a team medical staff is telling them they are good to go, and they feel they aren't, like there is continued pain, discomfort or whatever, for them to seek 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions to get the medical care they feel best about so they can return and be the best they can be. That way the team gets the best of the player and the player maximizes his chance at full health performance which maximizes his money making ability.

Kawhi is doing what's best for Kawhi. I, for one, respect that.

I recently talked with a neuropsychologist that did a lot of the concussion testing for the Cleveland Browns some years ago.  I asked how often he suspected that guys would 'fake good' to get back on the field.  He said the opposite was actually more common -- guys 'faking bad' to avoid further injury, especially in a contract year. 

I don't know how often it occurs or whether there's a difference in sports.  But there's no doubt a strong incentive for players to protect their health for longevity.  Worse, with how often trade demands have been granted lately, it seems like players have an increasingly ability to use health issues/treatment as leverage. 

I agree with you that players should listen to their bodies and get as many opinions as they can.  But at what point does the player gain too much power in these decisions?  When does ownership lose their ability to manage a team and its players?  What safeguards can be put into place so that a player doesn't collect $20 million in a season for not playing by choice rather than necessity?
I have 3 friends who are ex-pro athletes. I have two friends deep in Division I sports. Have to say I don't believe your doctor friend based on stories I have heard. Players want to play and almost all the time have to be held back against their will so they don't try to play while injured and injure themselves more.

And ultimately, it is ALWAYS, the player that has last say as to when he or she can return once they get injured. Medical staffs are beholden to teams and make decisions based on the best interests of the team. It is the player that has to make the best decision based on their best interests.

That's what Kawhi is doing here. That's not quitting. That's doing what is in his best interest.

What happens if in 2 months they discover he has some degenerative tendon disease and if he had played he could have done permanent damage to his leg? Everyone is going to seem pretty stupid then. Look at what happened to IT. The team said play through it, it won't be anything that can't be fixed through resting in the off season. He played. It got worse. He tried rest. It didn't work. He now needs surgery and now he will be about $100 million less rich.

Players gotta look out for themselves, first and foremost, then the team after that.

The players who choose this motto are the last people you give max contracts to.

I'm willing to bet if it was your health and well-being on the line you wouldnt say that.

Just look at IT, he practically traded a better career for what, to go further by 1 more round? I cannot believe people are so willingly open to risks when it is not their own body on the line.

Yeah, the IT example has to resonate with every injured player. The team misdiagnosed him, he played through injury, and now he’s a journeyman. He lost tens of millions of dollars, and got dumped by the team he was loyal to.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Celtics4ever on April 21, 2018, 10:14:01 AM
Quote
The team misdiagnosed him, he played through injury, and now he’s a journeyman. He lost tens of millions of dollars, and got dumped by the team he was loyal to.

May 20 2017

Quote
Chris Mannix of The Vertical previously called the injury "significant" and noted there were doubts within the Celtics organization regarding whether Thomas could play Game 7 of the last round, let alone continue in this series after he left Game 2 early.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2710816-isaiah-thomas-out-for-rest-of-2017-nba-postseason-with-hip-injury

I don't think that we wanted him to play.   I think that is the narrative that he is putting out there.


May 21 2017
Quote
Celtics chief medical officer Dr. Brian McKeon said the team and its superstar guard did everything possible to keep him on the court since he originally suffered the injury in March.

"Isaiah has worked tirelessly to manage this injury since it first occurred," he said. "The swelling increased during the first two games against Cleveland, and in order to avoid more significant long-term damage to his hip, we could no longer allow him to continue."

Joe Wolfond of The Score passed along comments Stevens made to reporters Sunday about the situation.

Quote
"I think it could be [surgery]," Stevens said. "It just depends on what happens when he visits the specialist."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2710920-isaiah-thomas-could-need-surgery-on-hip-injury-according-to-brad-stevens

I know IT is saying this or that now, but I am not sure that it went down exactly as he claims.  The answer as usual is somewhere in the middle.

May 24, 2017

Quote
The Celtics guard met with a hip specialist Tuesday to determine whether surgery would be necessary to repair his injured hip.

"His X-rays and all of the information that they gathered is being sent to another specialist," Celtics coach Brad Stevens told reporters prior to Tuesday's game in Cleveland. "I think he's probably going to collect one to two more opinions and then go from there before he ultimately makes a decision on the next step, whether that next step is surgery or a specific rehab program, whatever the case may be.

"But he's still obviously really sore... the last [doctor] said that some of the inflammation that he has has to go down before they can make the final call."

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2017-celtics-isaiah-thomas-hip-injury-surgery-specialists/108pm06uo001x1lpds4njfq7hl


May 25, 2017

Quote
“We don’t know if he needs surgery or what kind of surgery, or if that is a choice. We’ll wait until the hip calms down, do more tests and get more opinions,” said Ainge. “We’ll be able to take our time and get more opinions. Everyone agrees that if there is anything that needs to be done to it surgically, once the hip calms down it’s much better to do the surgery. … The recovery time will be much quicker.”

Ainge said Thomas battled the injury for much of the second half of the season, but powered through it to help Boston earn the No. 1 seed in the Eastern Conference and a trip to the East finals.

“He had really good days and days where he was more sore, but he would always rally. He’d play in games and on days it was sore he’d go out and score 35 and look explosive, like there was nothing wrong with it,” said Ainge. “He finished the second half of the season with some periodic discomfort, but I wasn’t too worried until Game 6 of the Wizards series, where I thought he might not play in Game 7. There was that possibility in my mind, but never in Isaiah’s.

“He was just determined; it was iffy if our medical staff would allow him to play but he was so determined. I was worried going into the Cleveland series and he was nowhere near himself in Game 1 or 2. In Game 2 in the second quarter, it was clear he was in a lot of pain and we couldn’t let him play the second half,” said Ainge, adding it would have been “irresponsible” for the team to let Thomas play anymore.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/05/25/celtics-danny-ainge-isaiah-thomas-hip-injury-possible-surgery/


Face it, IT did not want to get the surgery held off and it also was a part of him losing millions.

I still don't think we are trading Tatum and Brown.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: Roy H. on April 21, 2018, 10:35:54 AM
Quote
The team misdiagnosed him, he played through injury, and now he’s a journeyman. He lost tens of millions of dollars, and got dumped by the team he was loyal to.

May 20 2017

Quote
Chris Mannix of The Vertical previously called the injury "significant" and noted there were doubts within the Celtics organization regarding whether Thomas could play Game 7 of the last round, let alone continue in this series after he left Game 2 early.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2710816-isaiah-thomas-out-for-rest-of-2017-nba-postseason-with-hip-injury

I don't think that we wanted him to play.   I think that is the narrative that he is putting out there.


May 21 2017
Quote
Celtics chief medical officer Dr. Brian McKeon said the team and its superstar guard did everything possible to keep him on the court since he originally suffered the injury in March.

"Isaiah has worked tirelessly to manage this injury since it first occurred," he said. "The swelling increased during the first two games against Cleveland, and in order to avoid more significant long-term damage to his hip, we could no longer allow him to continue."

Joe Wolfond of The Score passed along comments Stevens made to reporters Sunday about the situation.

Quote
"I think it could be [surgery]," Stevens said. "It just depends on what happens when he visits the specialist."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2710920-isaiah-thomas-could-need-surgery-on-hip-injury-according-to-brad-stevens

I know IT is saying this or that now, but I am not sure that it went down exactly as he claims.  The answer as usual is somewhere in the middle.

May 24, 2017

Quote
The Celtics guard met with a hip specialist Tuesday to determine whether surgery would be necessary to repair his injured hip.

"His X-rays and all of the information that they gathered is being sent to another specialist," Celtics coach Brad Stevens told reporters prior to Tuesday's game in Cleveland. "I think he's probably going to collect one to two more opinions and then go from there before he ultimately makes a decision on the next step, whether that next step is surgery or a specific rehab program, whatever the case may be.

"But he's still obviously really sore... the last [doctor] said that some of the inflammation that he has has to go down before they can make the final call."

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2017-celtics-isaiah-thomas-hip-injury-surgery-specialists/108pm06uo001x1lpds4njfq7hl


May 25, 2017

Quote
“We don’t know if he needs surgery or what kind of surgery, or if that is a choice. We’ll wait until the hip calms down, do more tests and get more opinions,” said Ainge. “We’ll be able to take our time and get more opinions. Everyone agrees that if there is anything that needs to be done to it surgically, once the hip calms down it’s much better to do the surgery. … The recovery time will be much quicker.”

Ainge said Thomas battled the injury for much of the second half of the season, but powered through it to help Boston earn the No. 1 seed in the Eastern Conference and a trip to the East finals.

“He had really good days and days where he was more sore, but he would always rally. He’d play in games and on days it was sore he’d go out and score 35 and look explosive, like there was nothing wrong with it,” said Ainge. “He finished the second half of the season with some periodic discomfort, but I wasn’t too worried until Game 6 of the Wizards series, where I thought he might not play in Game 7. There was that possibility in my mind, but never in Isaiah’s.

“He was just determined; it was iffy if our medical staff would allow him to play but he was so determined. I was worried going into the Cleveland series and he was nowhere near himself in Game 1 or 2. In Game 2 in the second quarter, it was clear he was in a lot of pain and we couldn’t let him play the second half,” said Ainge, adding it would have been “irresponsible” for the team to let Thomas play anymore.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/05/25/celtics-danny-ainge-isaiah-thomas-hip-injury-possible-surgery/


Face it, IT did not want to get the surgery held off and it also was a part of him losing millions.

I still don't think we are trading Tatum and Brown.

The team misdiagnosed him in December, and he played on it for months.

And, if the Celts had wanted to sit IT, they would have.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: nickagneta on April 21, 2018, 12:36:05 PM

Can't help but think that you're Kawhi, with the dual-goal of becoming a CsBlog mod AND getting traded to the Celts within the same year.  (kidding)


Lol....that's pretty funny. No. I just think we lose the perspective that these players are people too, working for money for a large corporation. If a former employer of mine told me their paid for doctors cleared me to return to work due to a workers compensation accident, but I felt I was still in pain and not ready to be able to do my job, I would get a lawyer to protect my rights, my job, and my ability to make money in the future and not return to work.

I don't see where that's all that different, in many ways, to what Kawhi is doing. He needs to protect his own self and future ability to make money first, then once healthy enough to perform, his priority should be going to help his team win.

There is clearly contention between Kawhi and the team, probably stemming from the team standing behind the diagnosis of their medical team and Kawhi not agreeing with that diagnosis and not wanting to put his next 9 figure contract in jeopardy.

I don't find that to be quitting on his team.
I don't see Kyrie going to the Cavs and asking to be traded in the offseason as quitting on his team.
I don't see Eric Bledsoe demanding a trade during the season as quitting on the team.
I don't see players like Greg Monroe, Dwyane Wade and others asking for a buyout so they can play elsewhere as quitting on a team.

Those are things at the disposal of the player, due to the CBA, to get to move to other teams if the aren't happy with where they currently are while they are still under contract. I have no problem with any of those things.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: kraidstar on April 21, 2018, 01:16:49 PM
Quote
The team misdiagnosed him, he played through injury, and now he’s a journeyman. He lost tens of millions of dollars, and got dumped by the team he was loyal to.

May 20 2017

Quote
Chris Mannix of The Vertical previously called the injury "significant" and noted there were doubts within the Celtics organization regarding whether Thomas could play Game 7 of the last round, let alone continue in this series after he left Game 2 early.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2710816-isaiah-thomas-out-for-rest-of-2017-nba-postseason-with-hip-injury

I don't think that we wanted him to play.   I think that is the narrative that he is putting out there.


May 21 2017
Quote
Celtics chief medical officer Dr. Brian McKeon said the team and its superstar guard did everything possible to keep him on the court since he originally suffered the injury in March.

"Isaiah has worked tirelessly to manage this injury since it first occurred," he said. "The swelling increased during the first two games against Cleveland, and in order to avoid more significant long-term damage to his hip, we could no longer allow him to continue."

Joe Wolfond of The Score passed along comments Stevens made to reporters Sunday about the situation.

Quote
"I think it could be [surgery]," Stevens said. "It just depends on what happens when he visits the specialist."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2710920-isaiah-thomas-could-need-surgery-on-hip-injury-according-to-brad-stevens

I know IT is saying this or that now, but I am not sure that it went down exactly as he claims.  The answer as usual is somewhere in the middle.

May 24, 2017

Quote
The Celtics guard met with a hip specialist Tuesday to determine whether surgery would be necessary to repair his injured hip.

"His X-rays and all of the information that they gathered is being sent to another specialist," Celtics coach Brad Stevens told reporters prior to Tuesday's game in Cleveland. "I think he's probably going to collect one to two more opinions and then go from there before he ultimately makes a decision on the next step, whether that next step is surgery or a specific rehab program, whatever the case may be.

"But he's still obviously really sore... the last [doctor] said that some of the inflammation that he has has to go down before they can make the final call."

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2017-celtics-isaiah-thomas-hip-injury-surgery-specialists/108pm06uo001x1lpds4njfq7hl


May 25, 2017

Quote
“We don’t know if he needs surgery or what kind of surgery, or if that is a choice. We’ll wait until the hip calms down, do more tests and get more opinions,” said Ainge. “We’ll be able to take our time and get more opinions. Everyone agrees that if there is anything that needs to be done to it surgically, once the hip calms down it’s much better to do the surgery. … The recovery time will be much quicker.”

Ainge said Thomas battled the injury for much of the second half of the season, but powered through it to help Boston earn the No. 1 seed in the Eastern Conference and a trip to the East finals.

“He had really good days and days where he was more sore, but he would always rally. He’d play in games and on days it was sore he’d go out and score 35 and look explosive, like there was nothing wrong with it,” said Ainge. “He finished the second half of the season with some periodic discomfort, but I wasn’t too worried until Game 6 of the Wizards series, where I thought he might not play in Game 7. There was that possibility in my mind, but never in Isaiah’s.

“He was just determined; it was iffy if our medical staff would allow him to play but he was so determined. I was worried going into the Cleveland series and he was nowhere near himself in Game 1 or 2. In Game 2 in the second quarter, it was clear he was in a lot of pain and we couldn’t let him play the second half,” said Ainge, adding it would have been “irresponsible” for the team to let Thomas play anymore.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2017/05/25/celtics-danny-ainge-isaiah-thomas-hip-injury-possible-surgery/


Face it, IT did not want to get the surgery held off and it also was a part of him losing millions.

I still don't think we are trading Tatum and Brown.

TP, this narrative has gotten way out of hand.

By his own admission IT has abnormal hips:

"In late May, Thomas revealed to ESPN's Chris Forsberg that doctors have known for some time his hip bones are not normal. "Like I have an extra bone or something, like doctor talk," Thomas said. "I don't understand what they're saying.""

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/isaiah-thomas-injury-potentially/story?id=49668897


And his issues are at least partially chronic, he's been dealing with hip problems "for years."

One source with direct knowledge of Thomas' hip condition told The Athletic last week that he is dealing with more than just a tear. Some of those secondary issues in the hip he has played with for years now, such as a loss of cartilage and some arthritis, are complicating his healing process.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/cavs-guard-isaiah-thomas-has-reportedly-played-with-hip-injury-for-years-now/


Bottom line is that he has poor hips and he likely had his own agendas when declining surgery and continuing to play.
Title: Re: ESPN asking about idea of trading Tatum and Brown for Kawhi Leonard
Post by: rondofan1255 on May 16, 2018, 02:49:23 PM
hope C's just roll with Brown/Hayward/Tatum :D

Kawhi injured and FA coming up? no thanks!