CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: BringToughnessBack on March 17, 2018, 01:35:39 PM
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Okay, I am bored and getting ready to enjoy my Saturday spring weather in Colorado but had this thought. What if the IT trade did not happen: Chaos Theory, my version-
1. Rozier becomes our PG out of the gate and grows into a budding star role
2. That pass from Kyrie to Hayward never happens- He is healthy all season long and puts up amazing points per, rebounds per and assists per to help balance Rozier as he grows in the PG role
3. Our record might not be much different and one could argue, it might be better by a few games
4. Our bench is a little better on offense as IT leads the bench as sixth man for second half of the season
5. Brown, Tatum, Hayward and Horford plus Rozier make a really fun starting 5 to watch. Our D is actually better.
6. We have the Brooklyn pick and we are now 2.5 games out of worst record, and 1 game out of 3rd worst. We also have the ability to trade that pick before the trade deadline past and acquire a major piece or pre draft for a big time player without having to give up Brown or Tatum or we draft a game changer.
Okay, not saying I wouldnt have made that trade for Kyrie now but I do wonder, would we better off if we did not...Hard to say, Nobody expected Rozier to start developing like he has and mark my words, he will be an impact PG starter somewhere within a few years. I see glimpses of amazing from him and he will continue to get better. and Obviously, next year, Kyrie, and Hayward plus others will be awesome but this is about this year.
We do need a Kyrie in the playoffs but maybe, just maybe a budding Rozier with Hayward healthy and IT off the bench could be as good if not even more potent. Maybe....Chaos theory is fun
What is everyone else's Chaos Theory?
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1. Rozier probably follows a similar arc, struggling mightily at the beginning of the season;
4. Would IT accept the Sixth Man role here? Would that create chemistry issues?
5. Where does Crowder fit? Did we trade him? Did we keep an empty roster spot to sign Monroe?
Option 1:
Kyrie
Option 2:
Healthy Hayward
Better Rozier
Struggling IT
Crowder, who we trade for Hood
Less developed, but fresher, Tatum
Brooklyn pick
Zizic
Second rounder
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Definitely like the valid points you just made.
I do think Isaiah would not be happy with a "6th" man roll. Otherwise, pretty spot on for the rest.
I just think Irving is the player you want in the playoffs. I expect him to turn it up like we have not see around here in awhile. He has that "coast" until the real season begins attitude just like when in Cleveland.
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If the organization genuinely thinks that Rozier is the PG of the future, then I imagine we could get quite a haul for Kyrie.
It's obviously not fair to say that the pass to Hayward never would have happened (just as people argued that Wade wouldn't have necessarily ripped Rondo's arm out of its socket if we didn't trade Perk in 2011...yep, I am going there) so that part should be dismissed.
I don't think we would be re-signing IT unless it was for an extremely team-friendly deal. AB, too. The BKN pick would be nice, but they are just finishing a rough stretch of games and the schedule becomes a lot more friendly for them to end the season...just as the other tanking teams realize they have nothing to play for. I predict that pick ends up around 7-8.
Not picking on your thread - it is always interesting to play the 'what-if' game - but the injury bug hit us incredibly hard this year. Sometimes that's just the way the cookie crumbles (yep, super-lame 8) )
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It's obviously not fair to say that the pass to Hayward never would have happened (just as people argued that Wade wouldn't have necessarily ripped Rondo's arm out of its socket if we didn't trade Perk in 2011...yep, I am going there) so that part should be dismissed
Why should it be dismissed? Was Hayward’s injury inevitable, or was it caused by a specific landing caused by a specific play involving a unique situation?
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I'm kind of stuck on the whole concept of "Rozier grows into a budding star"... Like a star as in Reggie Jackson is a star?
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It's obviously not fair to say that the pass to Hayward never would have happened (just as people argued that Wade wouldn't have necessarily ripped Rondo's arm out of its socket if we didn't trade Perk in 2011...yep, I am going there) so that part should be dismissed
Why should it be dismissed? Was Hayward’s injury inevitable, or was it caused by a specific landing caused by a specific play involving a unique situation?
That's the $30 million question isn't it?
I'm of a mind that the play probably happens regardless of who is throwing the pass. That's a play that gets run regardless of who the PG is at the time so swapping our Kyrie for Rozier or IT or Smart or anyone else who would've been on the court at the time wouldn't have changed the outcome. I get why some thing changing one variable (the player throwing the pass) changes the equation enough that Hayward never gets hurt but I don't agree.
I'm kind of stuck on the whole concept of "Rozier grows into a budding star"... Like a star as in Reggie Jackson is a star?
Yeah, I've been very happy with Rozier this season but I still don't see "star" in him. He looks like a great backup or pretty good starter on the right team.
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It's obviously not fair to say that the pass to Hayward never would have happened (just as people argued that Wade wouldn't have necessarily ripped Rondo's arm out of its socket if we didn't trade Perk in 2011...yep, I am going there) so that part should be dismissed
Why should it be dismissed? Was Hayward’s injury inevitable, or was it caused by a specific landing caused by a specific play involving a unique situation?
That's the $30 million question isn't it?
I'm of a mind that the play probably happens regardless of who is throwing the pass. That's a play that gets run regardless of who the PG is at the time so swapping our Kyrie for Rozier or IT or Smart or anyone else who would've been on the court at the time wouldn't have changed the outcome. I get why some thing changing one variable (the player throwing the pass) changes the equation enough that Hayward never gets hurt but I don't agree.
The pass would have almost certainly been in a different location, and Jae Crowder 100% wouldn’t have been defending the play. And that’s without going into deeper repercussions of butterfly effect consequences.
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It's obviously not fair to say that the pass to Hayward never would have happened (just as people argued that Wade wouldn't have necessarily ripped Rondo's arm out of its socket if we didn't trade Perk in 2011...yep, I am going there) so that part should be dismissed
Why should it be dismissed? Was Hayward’s injury inevitable, or was it caused by a specific landing caused by a specific play involving a unique situation?
That's the $30 million question isn't it?
I'm of a mind that the play probably happens regardless of who is throwing the pass. That's a play that gets run regardless of who the PG is at the time so swapping our Kyrie for Rozier or IT or Smart or anyone else who would've been on the court at the time wouldn't have changed the outcome. I get why some thing changing one variable (the player throwing the pass) changes the equation enough that Hayward never gets hurt but I don't agree.
The pass would have almost certainly been in a different location, and Jae Crowder 100% wouldn’t have been defending the play. And that’s without going into deeper repercussions of butterfly effect consequences.
Yep. All or any of that could've changed things enough to stop the injury. I also think it's possible that the injury had more to do Hayward's body than with the conditions of the game when it happened and since it was a designed play and likely to happen in some similar form, that's more where I side.
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Not impossible for me envision IT back with the Celtics at some point. Maybe several years when he has decided leading the second squad an honor .
Hopefully he ll do this during the A Davis era at Boston and be part of hanging a banner.
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Not impossible for me envision IT back with the Celtics at some point. Maybe several years when he has decided leading the second squad an honor .
Hopefully he ll do this during the A Davis era at Boston and be part of hanging a banner.
I would be okay with bringing back Isaiah, and having a back court that you can switch back from 1st and second unit in Brown, Irving, Thomas, and Smart. This is only taken into consideration if Ainge firmly believes he can re-sign Smart at an affordable rate, and if Rozier wants to be a starter, or get paid like one.
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Not impossible for me envision IT back with the Celtics at some point. Maybe several years when he has decided leading the second squad an honor .
Hopefully he ll do this during the A Davis era at Boston and be part of hanging a banner.
I would be okay with bringing back Isaiah, and having a back court that you can switch back from 1st and second unit in Brown, Irving, Thomas, and Smart. This is only taken into consideration if Ainge firmly believes he can re-sign Smart at an affordable rate, and if Rozier wants to be a starter, or get paid like one.
IT aint coming back.. too much hurt ego to even play second fiddle to Kyrie. He will always find a starting gig anywhere even if its a non playoff team as long as it brings the brinks trucks
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We don’t trade Avery, who ends up on the shelf. No Morris.
No Monroe because no DPE.
And sorry but a Rozier does not replace Kyrie production. Not even close.
Loss of the Brooklyn pick the only stinger. Let’s see what that becomes before judging.
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Hayward's injury was caused by Crowder and Lebron trying to injury Hayward.
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We don’t trade Avery, who ends up on the shelf. No Morris.
No Monroe because no DPE.
And sorry but a Rozier does not replace Kyrie production. Not even close.
Loss of the Brooklyn pick the only stinger. Let’s see what that becomes before judging.
We had already traded Avery. He had nothing to do with Kyrie.
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and if Al wasn't sick the other night then Smart and Theis would be playing the rest of the year ;)
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We don’t trade Avery, who ends up on the shelf. No Morris.
No Monroe because no DPE.
And sorry but a Rozier does not replace Kyrie production. Not even close.
Loss of the Brooklyn pick the only stinger. Let’s see what that becomes before judging.
We had already traded Avery. He had nothing to do with Kyrie.
Shoot, that’s right. Thx.
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and if Al wasn't sick the other night then Smart and Theis would be playing the rest of the year ;)
Bottom of my stomach just dropped out.
Has there been a team more snakebit by injuries than Boston since the playoffs last year? For starters, if IT hadn’t been injured, would they have needed to throw in the BKN pick - maybe a lesser pick would’ve done it? Since then Hayward, Smart, Theis.
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Hayward's injury was caused by Crowder and Lebron trying to injury Hayward.
Exactly!
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It's obviously not fair to say that the pass to Hayward never would have happened (just as people argued that Wade wouldn't have necessarily ripped Rondo's arm out of its socket if we didn't trade Perk in 2011...yep, I am going there) so that part should be dismissed
Why should it be dismissed? Was Hayward’s injury inevitable, or was it caused by a specific landing caused by a specific play involving a unique situation?
In alternate version scenarios, the theory is that some events are due to happen no matter what, its just sometimes circumstances happen.
I know its fiction, but we are talking about theories here, and not having the certain things set in stone make for a very messy discussion. Example would be IT not getting traded wouldnt cause Hayward's injury, but Kyrie's pass to Lebron causes Horford's 6th foul, which makes us send Morris back in who collides with Hayward and cause a similar injury.
No, its a cleaner discussion if we accept certain events.
footnote: I know a lot of you look down on anime, but you guys should really watch Steins gate, its a very good one.
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Chaos theory is involved in a lot of sciences now but it is not the hot new thing it was in the 90s.
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- IT comes into the season late and struggles
- Crowder regresses and struggles to fit with Hayward
- The Brooklyn pick loses value
- Danny Ainge blows it up and we are back to square one.
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It's obviously not fair to say that the pass to Hayward never would have happened (just as people argued that Wade wouldn't have necessarily ripped Rondo's arm out of its socket if we didn't trade Perk in 2011...yep, I am going there) so that part should be dismissed
Why should it be dismissed? Was Hayward’s injury inevitable, or was it caused by a specific landing caused by a specific play involving a unique situation?
In alternate version scenarios, the theory is that some events are due to happen no matter what, its just sometimes circumstances happen.
I know its fiction, but we are talking about theories here, and not having the certain things set in stone make for a very messy discussion. Example would be IT not getting traded wouldnt cause Hayward's injury, but Kyrie's pass to Lebron causes Horford's 6th foul, which makes us send Morris back in who collides with Hayward and cause a similar injury.
No, its a cleaner discussion if we accept certain events.
footnote: I know a lot of you look down on anime, but you guys should really watch Steins gate, its a very good one.
TP for a good explanation of my initial point (in which I provided no explanation). I think it is easy for people to remove situations in which an injury occurred, but not take into consideration another event of similar proportions possibly occurring.
Maybe Hayward's ankle is fine and he is healthy this year, but Horford suffers torn pectoral muscle on a rebound where Hayward is in the way or maybe Kyrie suffers a torn ACL on a cut where Hayward is setting a screen...or maybe Hayward doesn't directly have anything to do with these injuries, but his mere presence leads to other players being in situations that cause similarly devastating injuries.
I don't believe in things being 'destined' to happen, but to assume something like Hayward's injury wouldn't have happened while everything else played out exactly as it did isn't totally fair.
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We don’t trade Avery, who ends up on the shelf. No Morris.
Avery was traded to sign Hayward, so that still happens.
If IT trade didn't happen, their record would probably be similar, on pace from about 50 wins, 2-3 seed, but they would have a much lower ceiling in the playoffs.
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and if Al wasn't sick the other night then Smart and Theis would be playing the rest of the year ;)
Bottom of my stomach just dropped out.
Has there been a team more snakebit by injuries than Boston since the playoffs last year? For starters, if IT hadn’t been injured, would they have needed to throw in the BKN pick - maybe a lesser pick would’ve done it? Since then Hayward, Smart, Theis.
This is the curse of IT in action.
Danny promised IT a max contract if he'd play through injury and through the death of his sister and then backed out of his promise after IT fulfilled his half of the bargain... This team is a beautiful skyrise condos built on top of a native american burial ground.
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We don’t trade Avery, who ends up on the shelf. No Morris.
Avery was traded to sign Hayward, so that still happens.
If IT trade didn't happen, their record would probably be similar, on pace from about 50 wins, 2-3 seed, but they would have a much lower ceiling in the playoffs.
Yeah there is no way this team would have had 50 wins if the Kyrie trade didn't happen. IT was out half the season and has been mediocre since his return. Rozier was bad the first half of the season and would have been our starting point guard. Assuming Rozier reached the level of play he is at now once IT returned, there would have been a legitimate issue of who should be starting, which would have caused IT to go ballistic going into his free agency.
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Danny promised IT a max contract if he'd play through injury and through the death of his sister and then backed out of his promise after IT fulfilled his half of the bargain...
Uh, what?
There is zero chance this actually happened. Not even the worst GM in the league would be foolish enough to promise any player anything of the sort.
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It's obviously not fair to say that the pass to Hayward never would have happened (just as people argued that Wade wouldn't have necessarily ripped Rondo's arm out of its socket if we didn't trade Perk in 2011...yep, I am going there) so that part should be dismissed
Why should it be dismissed? Was Hayward’s injury inevitable, or was it caused by a specific landing caused by a specific play involving a unique situation?
In alternate version scenarios, the theory is that some events are due to happen no matter what, its just sometimes circumstances happen.
I know its fiction, but we are talking about theories here, and not having the certain things set in stone make for a very messy discussion. Example would be IT not getting traded wouldnt cause Hayward's injury, but Kyrie's pass to Lebron causes Horford's 6th foul, which makes us send Morris back in who collides with Hayward and cause a similar injury.
No, its a cleaner discussion if we accept certain events.
footnote: I know a lot of you look down on anime, but you guys should really watch Steins gate, its a very good one.
no we are not.
https://www.livescience.com/21491-what-is-a-scientific-theory-definition-of-theory.html