CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: KGBirdBias on February 24, 2018, 09:32:57 PM

Title: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: KGBirdBias on February 24, 2018, 09:32:57 PM
Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.

Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Granath on February 24, 2018, 09:43:14 PM
Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.

I'm massively critical of Kyrie's defense but I'm not sure this is the right game to complain about it.

Right now Burke has 24 points and is -3 in +/-. Irving is +19. The Cs are up 6. If you do the math, Burke must be doing most of his damage while Irving isn't on the floor.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Surferdad on February 24, 2018, 09:54:42 PM
Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.

I'm massively critical of Kyrie's defense but I'm not sure this is the right game to complain about it.

Right now Burke has 24 points and is -3 in +/-. Irving is +19. The Cs are up 6. If you do the math, Burke must be doing most of his damage while Irving isn't on the floor.
Yeah, looked to me like he was feasting on Rozier.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: rollie mass on February 24, 2018, 10:00:40 PM
Rozier unlike Marcus keeps getting hung up on screens
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: BlastFromThePast on February 24, 2018, 10:19:20 PM
Rozier unlike Marcus keeps getting hung up on screens

Dead on. 
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Roy H. on February 24, 2018, 10:22:27 PM
This game aside, his defense isn’t very good. He’s allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  He’s the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, he’s allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: footey on February 24, 2018, 10:46:54 PM
Kyrie’s defense has slipped since First 3rd of season.

On a night like tonight it doesn’t matter. He was awesome on offense.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on February 24, 2018, 10:52:55 PM
Kyrie’s defense has slipped since First 3rd of season.

On a night like tonight it doesn’t matter. He was awesome on offense.


Better step that D up in the playoffs! Don't need him to be the greatest but he has to be much better!
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 24, 2018, 10:59:20 PM
This game aside, his defense isn’t very good. He’s allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  He’s the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, he’s allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

Good stats, but we need a bit more context.

For instance, other guards in the league that allow a bigger differential than Irving are Murray, Rubio, Hield, Hood, Burks, Schroeder, Russell, Fournier, KCP, Oubre, Stephenson, Jackson, Teague, Rondo, Smith, Booker, Parker, Barton, and STEPHEN CURRY.

Clarkson, Payton, Brogdon, Bradley, Delly, Paul, Rivers, and Hill all allow a positive point differential also.

You can't only look at the percentage of makes. You also need to look at the number of shots allowed by Irving. Irving is allowing the 38th most field goal attempts per game among guards who have played at least 30 games. There could be many reasons for that, but one possibility is that Irving is forcing the ball out of the his man's hands.

Players that allow more field goal attempts per game and a higher percentage than Irving include Payton, Smith, Schroeder, Dunn, Booker, Murray, Fournier, Teague, and Barton.

This is not adjusted on a per36 minute basis, because I don't feel like doing that right now. It does, however, give more context to the numbers you presented.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: green_bballers13 on February 24, 2018, 11:03:00 PM
This game aside, his defense isn’t very good. He’s allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  He’s the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, he’s allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

I expect that this is what we're going to see with Kyrie. He might not be the worst defender in the league, but he's not a very good one. I have about the same level of hope that Marcus will develop a good offensive game and Kyrie will be a good defender. Kyrie's offensive abilities will continue to make him an incredibly valuable player overall.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Roy H. on February 24, 2018, 11:23:18 PM
This game aside, his defense isn’t very good. He’s allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  He’s the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, he’s allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

Good stats, but we need a bit more context.

For instance, other guards in the league that allow a bigger differential than Irving are Murray, Rubio, Hield, Hood, Burks, Schroeder, Russell, Fournier, KCP, Oubre, Stephenson, Jackson, Teague, Rondo, Smith, Booker, Parker, Barton, and STEPHEN CURRY.

Clarkson, Payton, Brogdon, Bradley, Delly, Paul, Rivers, and Hill all allow a positive point differential also.

You can't only look at the percentage of makes. You also need to look at the number of shots allowed by Irving. Irving is allowing the 38th most field goal attempts per game among guards who have played at least 30 games. There could be many reasons for that, but one possibility is that Irving is forcing the ball out of the his man's hands.

Players that allow more field goal attempts per game and a higher percentage than Irving include Payton, Smith, Schroeder, Dunn, Booker, Murray, Fournier, Teague, and Barton.

This is not adjusted on a per36 minute basis, because I don't feel like doing that right now. It does, however, give more context to the numbers you presented.

Is there a context that shows him not in the bottom third defensively among starters?

It’s not a coincidence that the one guy on our team with a poor defensive reputation happens to be the worst defensive player on our team statistically.

And it’s not just FG% differential. He’s last among our regulars in DRtg and Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus, too, and the team gives up 5.4 points more per 100 possessions with Kyrie on the court versus the bench.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 25, 2018, 12:11:07 AM
Kyrie’s defense has slipped since First 3rd of season.

On a night like tonight it doesn’t matter. He was awesome on offense.


Better step that D up in the playoffs! Don't need him to be the greatest but he has to be much better!

you should text him ...let him know such ...LOL
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 25, 2018, 01:21:38 AM
This game aside, his defense isn’t very good. He’s allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  He’s the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, he’s allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

Good stats, but we need a bit more context.

For instance, other guards in the league that allow a bigger differential than Irving are Murray, Rubio, Hield, Hood, Burks, Schroeder, Russell, Fournier, KCP, Oubre, Stephenson, Jackson, Teague, Rondo, Smith, Booker, Parker, Barton, and STEPHEN CURRY.

Clarkson, Payton, Brogdon, Bradley, Delly, Paul, Rivers, and Hill all allow a positive point differential also.

You can't only look at the percentage of makes. You also need to look at the number of shots allowed by Irving. Irving is allowing the 38th most field goal attempts per game among guards who have played at least 30 games. There could be many reasons for that, but one possibility is that Irving is forcing the ball out of the his man's hands.

Players that allow more field goal attempts per game and a higher percentage than Irving include Payton, Smith, Schroeder, Dunn, Booker, Murray, Fournier, Teague, and Barton.

This is not adjusted on a per36 minute basis, because I don't feel like doing that right now. It does, however, give more context to the numbers you presented.

What context? Listing other names from a list isn't meaningful. If I'm left to guess, is your punchline that many guards are poor defenders?

That's very unlikely, given his poor effort.  The statistical drops Roy noted may be best explained by reduced effort -- he's getting comfortable in Boston.

Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: drogbagarnett on February 25, 2018, 01:40:55 AM


This game aside, his defense isn’t very good. He’s allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  He’s the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, he’s allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

Good stats, but we need a bit more context.

For instance, other guards in the league that allow a bigger differential than Irving are Murray, Rubio, Hield, Hood, Burks, Schroeder, Russell, Fournier, KCP, Oubre, Stephenson, Jackson, Teague, Rondo, Smith, Booker, Parker, Barton, and STEPHEN CURRY.

Clarkson, Payton, Brogdon, Bradley, Delly, Paul, Rivers, and Hill all allow a positive point differential also.

You can't only look at the percentage of makes. You also need to look at the number of shots allowed by Irving. Irving is allowing the 38th most field goal attempts per game among guards who have played at least 30 games. There could be many reasons for that, but one possibility is that Irving is forcing the ball out of the his man's hands.

Players that allow more field goal attempts per game and a higher percentage than Irving include Payton, Smith, Schroeder, Dunn, Booker, Murray, Fournier, Teague, and Barton.

This is not adjusted on a per36 minute basis, because I don't feel like doing that right now. It does, however, give more context to the numbers you presented.

Is there a context that shows him not in the bottom third defensively among starters?

It’s not a coincidence that the one guy on our team with a poor defensive reputation happens to be the worst defensive player on our team statistically.

And it’s not just FG% differential. He’s last among our regulars in DRtg and Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus, too, and the team gives up 5.4 points more per 100 possessions with Kyrie on the court versus the bench.

Still plays better D than IT...
For those expecting to get a defensive gorce with Kyrie sorry...
For those of us expecting a Defensive improvement from IT,  we are happy!
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: cltc5 on February 25, 2018, 01:44:53 AM


This game aside, his defense isn’t very good. He’s allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  He’s the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, he’s allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

Good stats, but we need a bit more context.

For instance, other guards in the league that allow a bigger differential than Irving are Murray, Rubio, Hield, Hood, Burks, Schroeder, Russell, Fournier, KCP, Oubre, Stephenson, Jackson, Teague, Rondo, Smith, Booker, Parker, Barton, and STEPHEN CURRY.

Clarkson, Payton, Brogdon, Bradley, Delly, Paul, Rivers, and Hill all allow a positive point differential also.

You can't only look at the percentage of makes. You also need to look at the number of shots allowed by Irving. Irving is allowing the 38th most field goal attempts per game among guards who have played at least 30 games. There could be many reasons for that, but one possibility is that Irving is forcing the ball out of the his man's hands.

Players that allow more field goal attempts per game and a higher percentage than Irving include Payton, Smith, Schroeder, Dunn, Booker, Murray, Fournier, Teague, and Barton.

This is not adjusted on a per36 minute basis, because I don't feel like doing that right now. It does, however, give more context to the numbers you presented.

Is there a context that shows him not in the bottom third defensively among starters?

It’s not a coincidence that the one guy on our team with a poor defensive reputation happens to be the worst defensive player on our team statistically.

And it’s not just FG% differential. He’s last among our regulars in DRtg and Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus, too, and the team gives up 5.4 points more per 100 possessions with Kyrie on the court versus the bench.

Still plays better D than IT...
For those expecting to get a defensive gorce with Kyrie sorry...
For those of us expecting a Defensive improvement from IT,  we are happy!

Yep
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Roy H. on February 25, 2018, 01:47:52 AM


This game aside, his defense isn’t very good. He’s allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  He’s the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, he’s allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

Good stats, but we need a bit more context.

For instance, other guards in the league that allow a bigger differential than Irving are Murray, Rubio, Hield, Hood, Burks, Schroeder, Russell, Fournier, KCP, Oubre, Stephenson, Jackson, Teague, Rondo, Smith, Booker, Parker, Barton, and STEPHEN CURRY.

Clarkson, Payton, Brogdon, Bradley, Delly, Paul, Rivers, and Hill all allow a positive point differential also.

You can't only look at the percentage of makes. You also need to look at the number of shots allowed by Irving. Irving is allowing the 38th most field goal attempts per game among guards who have played at least 30 games. There could be many reasons for that, but one possibility is that Irving is forcing the ball out of the his man's hands.

Players that allow more field goal attempts per game and a higher percentage than Irving include Payton, Smith, Schroeder, Dunn, Booker, Murray, Fournier, Teague, and Barton.

This is not adjusted on a per36 minute basis, because I don't feel like doing that right now. It does, however, give more context to the numbers you presented.

Is there a context that shows him not in the bottom third defensively among starters?

It’s not a coincidence that the one guy on our team with a poor defensive reputation happens to be the worst defensive player on our team statistically.

And it’s not just FG% differential. He’s last among our regulars in DRtg and Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus, too, and the team gives up 5.4 points more per 100 possessions with Kyrie on the court versus the bench.

Still plays better D than IT...
For those expecting to get a defensive gorce with Kyrie sorry...
For those of us expecting a Defensive improvement from IT,  we are happy!

Who cares about IT at this stage? Kyrie needs to step up his defense, regardless of who may or may not be worse.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: The Oracle on February 25, 2018, 04:42:31 AM
Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll. 
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 25, 2018, 07:52:41 AM


This game aside, his defense isn’t very good. He’s allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  He’s the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, he’s allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

Good stats, but we need a bit more context.

For instance, other guards in the league that allow a bigger differential than Irving are Murray, Rubio, Hield, Hood, Burks, Schroeder, Russell, Fournier, KCP, Oubre, Stephenson, Jackson, Teague, Rondo, Smith, Booker, Parker, Barton, and STEPHEN CURRY.

Clarkson, Payton, Brogdon, Bradley, Delly, Paul, Rivers, and Hill all allow a positive point differential also.

You can't only look at the percentage of makes. You also need to look at the number of shots allowed by Irving. Irving is allowing the 38th most field goal attempts per game among guards who have played at least 30 games. There could be many reasons for that, but one possibility is that Irving is forcing the ball out of the his man's hands.

Players that allow more field goal attempts per game and a higher percentage than Irving include Payton, Smith, Schroeder, Dunn, Booker, Murray, Fournier, Teague, and Barton.

This is not adjusted on a per36 minute basis, because I don't feel like doing that right now. It does, however, give more context to the numbers you presented.

Is there a context that shows him not in the bottom third defensively among starters?

It’s not a coincidence that the one guy on our team with a poor defensive reputation happens to be the worst defensive player on our team statistically.

And it’s not just FG% differential. He’s last among our regulars in DRtg and Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus, too, and the team gives up 5.4 points more per 100 possessions with Kyrie on the court versus the bench.

Still plays better D than IT...
For those expecting to get a defensive gorce with Kyrie sorry...
For those of us expecting a Defensive improvement from IT,  we are happy!

Who cares about IT at this stage? Kyrie needs to step up his defense, regardless of who may or may not be worse.

I had no punchline. I had no main point. I was supplying more context to the stats. The forceful response back after I supplied more context is kinda' silly. I wasn't trying to say he is a good defender.

Just putting percentage differentials out there without any real context is unhelpful.

Other guys who are well-known as defensive players were on those lists also - Bradley, Paul, Brogdon, KCP, and Rubio. Stephen Curry was even on that list.

Knowing who else is on those lists and other important lists gives you a backdrop to understand Kyrie's defense. If you don't think that the backdrop I provided colors him in a negative enough light, don't get upset. Let's have a discussion on it.

Defensive stats are mostly wanting. They do an inefficient job at portraying good defense. Sometimes they get it right, but sometimes they get it wrong.

For instance, the fact that the team gives up 5.4 more points per 100 possessions when Kyrie is on the court might tell us that he is not a good team defender, but it also might tell us that the league as a whole doesn't have deep teams (because those teams struggle to score against our bench unit). It also could mean both at the same time. This is an example of how a defensive stat is inefficient at showing us good defenders.

Did you know that Curry's defensive rating and dbpm was worse than Irving? Did you know that Bradley's defensive rating is worse and dbpm is almost identical?

Again, not necessarily saying that Irving is a better defender than Bradley or Curry -- he might or might not be, but that's not the point. The point is that every defensive stat that is out there is fundamentally flawed in some way and needs context.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 25, 2018, 08:00:58 AM
Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll.

Thank-you, Oracle. Nice stats. TP
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Roy H. on February 25, 2018, 09:01:17 AM


This game aside, his defense isn’t very good. He’s allowing a 47.7% FG%, worst among rotation players on our team.  He’s the only rotation guy on our team who allows opponents to shoot better than their normal percentage. He ranks in roughly the bottom 20% of starters in terms of FG% differential (what opponents normally shoot vs. what they shoot when covered by Kyrie).

Since Christmas, he’s allowed 50.9% shooting.

https://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=1&CF=PLAYER_LAST_TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*Bos:GP*GE*10&DateFrom=12%2F25%2F2017&DateTo=02%2F24%2F2018

Looking at those post-Christmas stats, it seems like everybody is doing his job well except for Kyrie (and Monroe, which is understandable). Horford and Smart in particular have been defensive beasts.

Good stats, but we need a bit more context.

For instance, other guards in the league that allow a bigger differential than Irving are Murray, Rubio, Hield, Hood, Burks, Schroeder, Russell, Fournier, KCP, Oubre, Stephenson, Jackson, Teague, Rondo, Smith, Booker, Parker, Barton, and STEPHEN CURRY.

Clarkson, Payton, Brogdon, Bradley, Delly, Paul, Rivers, and Hill all allow a positive point differential also.

You can't only look at the percentage of makes. You also need to look at the number of shots allowed by Irving. Irving is allowing the 38th most field goal attempts per game among guards who have played at least 30 games. There could be many reasons for that, but one possibility is that Irving is forcing the ball out of the his man's hands.

Players that allow more field goal attempts per game and a higher percentage than Irving include Payton, Smith, Schroeder, Dunn, Booker, Murray, Fournier, Teague, and Barton.

This is not adjusted on a per36 minute basis, because I don't feel like doing that right now. It does, however, give more context to the numbers you presented.

Is there a context that shows him not in the bottom third defensively among starters?

It’s not a coincidence that the one guy on our team with a poor defensive reputation happens to be the worst defensive player on our team statistically.

And it’s not just FG% differential. He’s last among our regulars in DRtg and Defensive Boxscore Plus Minus, too, and the team gives up 5.4 points more per 100 possessions with Kyrie on the court versus the bench.

Still plays better D than IT...
For those expecting to get a defensive gorce with Kyrie sorry...
For those of us expecting a Defensive improvement from IT,  we are happy!

Who cares about IT at this stage? Kyrie needs to step up his defense, regardless of who may or may not be worse.

I had no punchline. I had no main point. I was supplying more context to the stats. The forceful response back after I supplied more context is kinda' silly. I wasn't trying to say he is a good defender.

Just putting percentage differentials out there without any real context is unhelpful.

Other guys who are well-known as defensive players were on those lists also - Bradley, Paul, Brogdon, KCP, and Rubio. Stephen Curry was even on that list.

Knowing who else is on those lists and other important lists gives you a backdrop to understand Kyrie's defense. If you don't think that the backdrop I provided colors him in a negative enough light, don't get upset. Let's have a discussion on it.

Defensive stats are mostly wanting. They do an inefficient job at portraying good defense. Sometimes they get it right, but sometimes they get it wrong.

For instance, the fact that the team gives up 5.4 more points per 100 possessions when Kyrie is on the court might tell us that he is not a good team defender, but it also might tell us that the league as a whole doesn't have deep teams (because those teams struggle to score against our bench unit). It also could mean both at the same time. This is an example of how a defensive stat is inefficient at showing us good defenders.

Did you know that Curry's defensive rating and dbpm was worse than Irving? Did you know that Bradley's defensive rating is worse and dbpm is almost identical?

Again, not necessarily saying that Irving is a better defender than Bradley or Curry -- he might or might not be, but that's not the point. The point is that every defensive stat that is out there is fundamentally flawed in some way and needs context.

That’s a “forceful” response? Showing more stats to back up the original point?

Nobody said Kyrie was the worst defender in the league. He’s just (far and away) the worst defensive Celtics regular. He’s in around the bottom 20% league wide. Is there context provided by pointing out that Steph Curry is arguably worse? Maybe, but I’d assume that most fans already knew that Steph is a lousy defender.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Bucketgetter on February 25, 2018, 09:17:46 AM
Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll.
I assume the OP just looked at the box score and didn’t actually watch the game based on those stats.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: mctyson on February 25, 2018, 09:51:20 AM
Kyrie’s defense has slipped since First 3rd of season.

On a night like tonight it doesn’t matter. He was awesome on offense.


Better step that D up in the playoffs! Don't need him to be the greatest but he has to be much better!

I think Kyrie showed that he can defend well early in the season, and has put it back in the bag to save for the post season.  At least that is what I am telling myself.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: GRADYCOLNON on February 25, 2018, 11:38:08 AM
Irving gets fair criticism because he doesn't hold his own in PnR, strays too far off his man, and overall allows opponents to find ways to get rhythms against our defense. It isn't always his man that directly scores, but his effort puts the strain on our ability to lockdown. 

The scoring Burkes had last night is blame for Rozier and overall defensive effort.  Rozier doesn't often have Horford behind him like Irving, so I get both sides of the arguments prior to my post.  Morris and Monroe just don't have the ability to contain penetration and get back to their man before the other team makes the right decision. 

In general, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if Irving would give more effort to stay with his man in PnRs and not sag too often.  These could help us tighten up our defense and limit bad teams from scoring so easily.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: KGBirdBias on February 25, 2018, 05:39:21 PM
Irving gets fair criticism because he doesn't hold his own in PnR, strays too far off his man, and overall allows opponents to find ways to get rhythms against our defense. It isn't always his man that directly scores, but his effort puts the strain on our ability to lockdown. 

The scoring Burkes had last night is blame for Rozier and overall defensive effort.  Rozier doesn't often have Horford behind him like Irving, so I get both sides of the arguments prior to my post.  Morris and Monroe just don't have the ability to contain penetration and get back to their man before the other team makes the right decision. 

In general, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if Irving would give more effort to stay with his man in PnRs and not sag too often.  These could help us tighten up our defense and limit bad teams from scoring so easily.

Exactly! Look for the "stat" and "+/-" guys just watch the games. Who cares about a +/- when the game has been simple for decades upon decades. It's a make and miss league where you must rebound, assist and defend...period. Now, Kyrie is a good offensive player but his defense on PnR is atrocious. He's always trailing and doesn't try to stay with his man. That in turn allows guards to go downhill with options and get other people out of position, which in turn makes players reach, not rotate and be out of position for rebounds. He doesn't have to be Dumars but he can be better. As Barkley says, "all these analytical guys try to make the game about numbers so they feel smarter than everyone else. Watch the games and if you know the game, your eyes will tell you what you see".
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: jambr380 on February 25, 2018, 05:49:15 PM
Kyrie’s defense has slipped since First 3rd of season.

On a night like tonight it doesn’t matter. He was awesome on offense.


Better step that D up in the playoffs! Don't need him to be the greatest but he has to be much better!

I think Kyrie showed that he can defend well early in the season, and has put it back in the bag to save for the post season.  At least that is what I am telling myself.

The difference between Kyrie and IT has always been that Kyrie can play defense while IT - even with a high level of effort - just isn't ever able to compensate for his height.

It's a little bit annoying that Kyrie doesn't exert as much effort on the defensive side of the ball as we know he could (he is no Marcus Smart, but he can be adequate), but I guess that is what you get from a guy whose team has gone to the Finals the last 3 years. Hopefully he will deliver when it matters most.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Bucketgetter on February 25, 2018, 05:52:40 PM
Irving gets fair criticism because he doesn't hold his own in PnR, strays too far off his man, and overall allows opponents to find ways to get rhythms against our defense. It isn't always his man that directly scores, but his effort puts the strain on our ability to lockdown. 

The scoring Burkes had last night is blame for Rozier and overall defensive effort.  Rozier doesn't often have Horford behind him like Irving, so I get both sides of the arguments prior to my post.  Morris and Monroe just don't have the ability to contain penetration and get back to their man before the other team makes the right decision. 

In general, I'd feel a lot more comfortable if Irving would give more effort to stay with his man in PnRs and not sag too often.  These could help us tighten up our defense and limit bad teams from scoring so easily.

Exactly! Look for the "stat" and "+/-" guys just watch the games. Who cares about a +/- when the game has been simple for decades upon decades. It's a make and miss league where you must rebound, assist and defend...period. Now, Kyrie is a good offensive player but his defense on PnR is atrocious. He's always trailing and doesn't try to stay with his man. That in turn allows guards to go downhill with options and get other people out of position, which in turn makes players reach, not rotate and be out of position for rebounds. He doesn't have to be Dumars but he can be better. As Barkley says, "all these analytical guys try to make the game about numbers so they feel smarter than everyone else. Watch the games and if you know the game, your eyes will tell you what you see".
Lol his post was not at all what you made it out to be. You turned it into an anti-stat rant for no reason. And not even against advanced stats, simply regular stats.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 25, 2018, 05:58:26 PM
Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll.

Where are stats like this available?  And with the name "The Oracle"? ...  I feel like I'm watching an episode of Mr. Robot.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: The Oracle on February 25, 2018, 06:09:29 PM
Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll.

Where are stats like this available?  And with the name "The Oracle"...  I feel like I'm watching an episode of Mr. Robot.
If you go to NBA.com and click on any player there is a compare player button towards the upper right.  You then can enter any opponent or teammate and adjust the parameters.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 25, 2018, 06:16:43 PM
Seriously, Trey Burke 24 points. He is close to being out the league. Kyrie needs to take a little more pride in defense. I love his offense but you can't score 30 and give up 25 to bench  PGs.
Trey Burke was 3-10 FG, 0-4 from 3, 1-1 FT and was -17 +/- with Kyrie on the court.  Burke was 7-9 FG, 2-2 from 3, 3-4 FT and +13 +/- when Kyrie was not on the court.  Kyrie was guarding Burke on exactly 1 of his made FGA when he was hip checked and knocked off the ball slightly by Beasley, a 15 foot runner in the 2nd qtr. (not poor defense).  Rozier got beat badly many times, Brown gave up a couple buckets and the others were scored over Monroe and Morris on switches when involved with Rozier and Brown in the pick and roll.

Where are stats like this available?  And with the name "The Oracle"...  I feel like I'm watching an episode of Mr. Robot.
If you go to NBA.com and click on any player there is a compare player button towards the upper right.  You then can enter any opponent or teammate and adjust the parameters.

Thanks, TP
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: keevsnick on February 25, 2018, 06:28:12 PM
Kyrie Irving is bad at defense, he's been bad at defense his entire career. You put up with it because he's one of the ten best offensive players in the league.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: droopdog7 on February 25, 2018, 07:02:13 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: GRADYCOLNON on February 25, 2018, 08:33:56 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: droopdog7 on February 25, 2018, 10:04:33 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: mainevent on February 25, 2018, 11:08:43 PM
[Edited.]. Discuss the subject matter, rather than other members.  Your post acknowledged you knew better. Last warning.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 26, 2018, 09:43:49 AM
May be pertinent. May not be.

Kevin O'Connor posted "Takeaways From the Sloan Conference" on The Ringer today.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2/26/17052150/mit-sloan-sports-analytics-conference-jimmy-butler-daryl-morey

Part of the discussion was about defensive rating. It doesn't change any of the conversation we've had, but it does ADD MORE CONTEXT.

"I spent the past week or so chatting with NBA executives and coaches about the role of stats, and the one thing they agree on is that they’re occasionally misused by the public. One front-office stats guy told me that he observes people making mistakes most frequently with NBA.com’s defensive rating, which is a team statistic, not a player statistic. For example, you might see the following sentence somewhere on the internet: VanVleet leads the Raptors with a 97.8 defensive rating. But that’s not true. The correct way to convey the statistic is: The Raptors have a 97.8 defensive rating when VanVleet is on the floor. It’s a subtle but important difference between the two sentences. The former implies that VanVleet is an elite defender, while the latter says VanVleet is one of five players that make up a team performing at an elite level. Fans and writers alike made this error last season with Jae Crowder, who ranked 20th in real plus-minus and shined in virtually all other advanced statistics. The reality is Crowder was a beneficiary of the Celtics’ system and the superior defensive players he frequently shared the floor with."
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Roy H. on February 26, 2018, 10:07:31 AM
May be pertinent. May not be.

Kevin O'Connor posted "Takeaways From the Sloan Conference" on The Ringer today.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2/26/17052150/mit-sloan-sports-analytics-conference-jimmy-butler-daryl-morey

Part of the discussion was about defensive rating. It doesn't change any of the conversation we've had, but it does ADD MORE CONTEXT.

"I spent the past week or so chatting with NBA executives and coaches about the role of stats, and the one thing they agree on is that they’re occasionally misused by the public. One front-office stats guy told me that he observes people making mistakes most frequently with NBA.com’s defensive rating, which is a team statistic, not a player statistic. For example, you might see the following sentence somewhere on the internet: VanVleet leads the Raptors with a 97.8 defensive rating. But that’s not true. The correct way to convey the statistic is: The Raptors have a 97.8 defensive rating when VanVleet is on the floor. It’s a subtle but important difference between the two sentences. The former implies that VanVleet is an elite defender, while the latter says VanVleet is one of five players that make up a team performing at an elite level. Fans and writers alike made this error last season with Jae Crowder, who ranked 20th in real plus-minus and shined in virtually all other advanced statistics. The reality is Crowder was a beneficiary of the Celtics’ system and the superior defensive players he frequently shared the floor with."

DRtg isn’t my favorite stat because it’s teammate dependent. It’s not a good stat to compare players across multiple teams.  However, it’s fine to use it when looking at players on the same team, in conjunction with other analytics and observation.

For instance, last year IT’s DRtg was worst on the team. That’s not because of his teammates, it’s because he was our worst defender. The same is true of Kyrie.
.

Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 26, 2018, 10:14:51 AM
May be pertinent. May not be.

Kevin O'Connor posted "Takeaways From the Sloan Conference" on The Ringer today.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2/26/17052150/mit-sloan-sports-analytics-conference-jimmy-butler-daryl-morey

Part of the discussion was about defensive rating. It doesn't change any of the conversation we've had, but it does ADD MORE CONTEXT.

"I spent the past week or so chatting with NBA executives and coaches about the role of stats, and the one thing they agree on is that they’re occasionally misused by the public. One front-office stats guy told me that he observes people making mistakes most frequently with NBA.com’s defensive rating, which is a team statistic, not a player statistic. For example, you might see the following sentence somewhere on the internet: VanVleet leads the Raptors with a 97.8 defensive rating. But that’s not true. The correct way to convey the statistic is: The Raptors have a 97.8 defensive rating when VanVleet is on the floor. It’s a subtle but important difference between the two sentences. The former implies that VanVleet is an elite defender, while the latter says VanVleet is one of five players that make up a team performing at an elite level. Fans and writers alike made this error last season with Jae Crowder, who ranked 20th in real plus-minus and shined in virtually all other advanced statistics. The reality is Crowder was a beneficiary of the Celtics’ system and the superior defensive players he frequently shared the floor with."

DRtg isn’t my favorite stat because it’s teammate dependent. It’s not a good stat to compare players across multiple teams.  However, it’s fine to use it when looking at players on the same team, in conjunction with other analytics and observation.

For instance, last year IT’s DRtg was worst on the team. That’s not because of his teammates, it’s because he was our worst defender. The same is true of Kyrie.
.

 :) :) :)

You keep saying that, and I don't disagree. I'm just adding context.  ;D
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Roy H. on February 26, 2018, 10:17:54 AM
May be pertinent. May not be.

Kevin O'Connor posted "Takeaways From the Sloan Conference" on The Ringer today.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2/26/17052150/mit-sloan-sports-analytics-conference-jimmy-butler-daryl-morey

Part of the discussion was about defensive rating. It doesn't change any of the conversation we've had, but it does ADD MORE CONTEXT.

"I spent the past week or so chatting with NBA executives and coaches about the role of stats, and the one thing they agree on is that they’re occasionally misused by the public. One front-office stats guy told me that he observes people making mistakes most frequently with NBA.com’s defensive rating, which is a team statistic, not a player statistic. For example, you might see the following sentence somewhere on the internet: VanVleet leads the Raptors with a 97.8 defensive rating. But that’s not true. The correct way to convey the statistic is: The Raptors have a 97.8 defensive rating when VanVleet is on the floor. It’s a subtle but important difference between the two sentences. The former implies that VanVleet is an elite defender, while the latter says VanVleet is one of five players that make up a team performing at an elite level. Fans and writers alike made this error last season with Jae Crowder, who ranked 20th in real plus-minus and shined in virtually all other advanced statistics. The reality is Crowder was a beneficiary of the Celtics’ system and the superior defensive players he frequently shared the floor with."

DRtg isn’t my favorite stat because it’s teammate dependent. It’s not a good stat to compare players across multiple teams.  However, it’s fine to use it when looking at players on the same team, in conjunction with other analytics and observation.

For instance, last year IT’s DRtg was worst on the team. That’s not because of his teammates, it’s because he was our worst defender. The same is true of Kyrie.
.

 :) :) :)

You keep saying that, and I don't disagree. I'm just adding context.  ;D

As am I.  It would be nice if all the helpful folks adding “context” could apply some of it to their observations of Kyrie’s defense, though.  8)
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 26, 2018, 10:33:34 AM
May be pertinent. May not be.

Kevin O'Connor posted "Takeaways From the Sloan Conference" on The Ringer today.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2/26/17052150/mit-sloan-sports-analytics-conference-jimmy-butler-daryl-morey

Part of the discussion was about defensive rating. It doesn't change any of the conversation we've had, but it does ADD MORE CONTEXT.

"I spent the past week or so chatting with NBA executives and coaches about the role of stats, and the one thing they agree on is that they’re occasionally misused by the public. One front-office stats guy told me that he observes people making mistakes most frequently with NBA.com’s defensive rating, which is a team statistic, not a player statistic. For example, you might see the following sentence somewhere on the internet: VanVleet leads the Raptors with a 97.8 defensive rating. But that’s not true. The correct way to convey the statistic is: The Raptors have a 97.8 defensive rating when VanVleet is on the floor. It’s a subtle but important difference between the two sentences. The former implies that VanVleet is an elite defender, while the latter says VanVleet is one of five players that make up a team performing at an elite level. Fans and writers alike made this error last season with Jae Crowder, who ranked 20th in real plus-minus and shined in virtually all other advanced statistics. The reality is Crowder was a beneficiary of the Celtics’ system and the superior defensive players he frequently shared the floor with."

DRtg isn’t my favorite stat because it’s teammate dependent. It’s not a good stat to compare players across multiple teams.  However, it’s fine to use it when looking at players on the same team, in conjunction with other analytics and observation.

For instance, last year IT’s DRtg was worst on the team. That’s not because of his teammates, it’s because he was our worst defender. The same is true of Kyrie.
.

 :) :) :)

You keep saying that, and I don't disagree. I'm just adding context.  ;D

As am I.  It would be nice if all the helpful folks adding “context” could apply some of it to their observations of Kyrie’s defense, though.  8)

That seems like a passive aggressive way to try to win an argument against a person who is not trying to argue.  ;D ;D

I agree that Irving has not been a good defender for us or generally in his career.

I think he can make timely defensive plays. I remember when he blocked Curry in an important 4th quarter play in the finals the year they won. I remember multiple steals he had in the game against the Rockets earlier this year that started to ignite our team's defensive energy and turn the momentum for the Cs. I also see him far more engaged on defense in the big games.

I also think our team's defensive floor and ceiling are much higher with Irving than with Thomas.

All of that being said, he has probably been our worst defensive rotation player this year (Nader, Yabusele, and Larkin can be pretty bad too). 
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Moranis on February 26, 2018, 11:25:54 AM
You mean Irving is a poor defender.  Shocking. 

In all seriousness, this shows one of the fundamental problems when you have a player that does so much offensively.  They just don't have the energy to consistently perform at a high level defensively.  That isn't to say Irving will ever be a + defender, as he won't, but for stretches when he applies himself he can at least be passable defensively.  He just can't do that and bring the offensive intensity except for short periods of time.  It happens with all great players, they just can't keep bringing it night in and night out on both ends of the floor.  It is just too draining.  As long as Irving is outperforming his counterpart by a good enough margin, his poor defense just doesn't matter in the scheme of things.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 26, 2018, 11:32:58 AM
You mean Irving is a poor defender.  Shocking. 

In all seriousness, this shows one of the fundamental problems when you have a player that does so much offensively.  They just don't have the energy to consistently perform at a high level defensively.  That isn't to say Irving will ever be a + defender, as he won't, but for stretches when he applies himself he can at least be passable defensively.  He just can't do that and bring the offensive intensity except for short periods of time.  It happens with all great players, they just can't keep bringing it night in and night out on both ends of the floor.  It is just too draining.  As long as Irving is outperforming his counterpart by a good enough margin, his poor defense just doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

You wonder if when Hayward comes back and Brown and Tatum become better offensively, if at that point Irving will be able to spend more energy defensively. 
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: GRADYCOLNON on February 27, 2018, 06:25:38 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Rosco917 on February 27, 2018, 07:41:33 PM
in a perfect world, I'd love to have a star two-way player.

But, with the injury to Hayward, I'm quite happy knowing he's able to defend when he needs to, rather than being unable to defend under any circumstances.

Without a solid second option on this team, I'd rather have him have his legs in the 4th quarter to try to close games out.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: green_bballers13 on February 27, 2018, 08:15:16 PM
It's going to be Kyrie's role to score a million points in the playoffs. They have Smart and Brown to hide Kyrie a little on D.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 27, 2018, 08:20:05 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 27, 2018, 08:23:05 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Roy H. on February 27, 2018, 08:29:19 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do -- best players in the league.  There's a whole lot more than five.

Yeah, there may be only five guys who play elite basketball on both ends, but that’s not the issue discussed here. Rather, it’s that Kyrie’s defense is in the bottom 20%.  There’s a big gap between “bottom 20%” and “high level”.

Is there any reason that Kyrie can’t exert enough energy on D to be considered average, or even slightly below average? 
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 27, 2018, 08:39:36 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: moiso on February 27, 2018, 09:02:16 PM
I’m not sure how we can judge how much effort someone puts forth on offense.  The teams highest scorer always tries the hardest on that end?  I think that’s ridiculous.  A portion of what Kyrie does on offense looks effortless to me.  Someone like Rozier appears to expend 3x more energy on offense than Irving.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 27, 2018, 09:04:20 PM
I’m not sure how we can judge how much effort someone puts forth on offense.  The teams highest scorer always tries the hardest on that end?  I think that’s ridiculous.  A portion of what Kyrie does on offense looks effortless to me.  Someone like Rozier appears to expend 3x more energy on offense than Irving.
per possesion perhaps. Irving's usage rate is 31 to Rozier's 20 and he plays 33 mpg to Rozier's 24.

Irving has the 9th highest usage rate in the entire NBA. Plus he's the focus of the other team every night. In crunch time he gets trapped left and right. He rarely has physical advantages over his matchup and has to craft his way around them. Should Irving work a little harder?

Probably, but you can't ask him to compete at the level he did for the first 20 games without expecting a pretty substantial dip in scoring efficiency (he's pretty close to 40/50/90 scoring 25 a game, >.600 TS too.)
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: moiso on February 27, 2018, 09:07:26 PM
I’m not sure how we can judge how much effort someone puts forth on offense.  The teams highest scorer always tries the hardest on that end?  I think that’s ridiculous.  A portion of what Kyrie does on offense looks effortless to me.  Someone like Rozier appears to expend 3x more energy on offense than Irving.
per possesion perhaps. Irving's usage rate is 31 to Rozier's 20 and he plays 33 mpg to Rozier's 24.
And Irving plays far more minutes.  He seems pretty relaxed when he scores a lot of the time though.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 27, 2018, 09:11:34 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Eddie20 on February 27, 2018, 09:45:51 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 27, 2018, 09:56:52 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.

I addressed those above.  They're averaging more PPG than Irving and all 5 are elite defenders.  They slack when they want to, because they can, as we all do in our work when pressure/stakes are low.  But if you fault them for that, you should fault Kyrie for that x10.  The Irving = Westbrook on defense comment is quoteworthy.  :P  That'd be poor form, and I do respect you too much to do that.  But could not disagree more with ya here.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Eddie20 on February 27, 2018, 10:13:01 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.

I addressed those above.  They're averaging more PPG than Irving and all 5 are elite defenders.  They slack when they want to, because they can, as we all do in our work when pressure/stakes are low.  But if you fault them for that, you should fault Kyrie for that x10.  The Irving = Westbrook on defense comment is quoteworthy.  :P  That'd be poor form, and I do respect you too much to do that.  But could not disagree more with ya here.

Westbrook is definitely not an elite defender and not only does he have some headscratching breakdowns, but was accused by Lowe of leaving his man in order to pad his rebounding stats.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/11/22/16693192/russell-westbrook-defense-thunder-controller-nba-2k

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5gARTD3Vgo


Regardless, it's awesome to know that we have such a great player and even having these discussions.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 27, 2018, 10:30:15 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.

I addressed those above.  They're averaging more PPG than Irving and all 5 are elite defenders.  They slack when they want to, because they can, as we all do in our work when pressure/stakes are low.  But if you fault them for that, you should fault Kyrie for that x10.  The Irving = Westbrook on defense comment is quoteworthy.  :P  That'd be poor form, and I do respect you too much to do that.  But could not disagree more with ya here.
Westbrook is so so far from an elite defender. Lebron doesnt try on that end and Durant neither has the burden Kyrie does, nor does he exert that much effort. His length allows him to be really good on that end without going balls to the wall all the time.

If you think Klay and Kyrie have similar burden's IDK what to tell you.

Paul George didn't try much on defense his last few years in Indiana. He gets to OKC where he is no longer tasked with carrying the offense and all of a sudden he is locked in on defense again. Why? because he doesnt have Kyrie like responsibilities any more.

If we had Hayward, Id expect a higher level of effort, but just like with IT last year (who didnt give a crap about defense) I'm not gonna demand a high level of effort on D from Kyrie either because we are asking him to carry us offensively.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 27, 2018, 10:31:44 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.

I addressed those above.  They're averaging more PPG than Irving and all 5 are elite defenders.  They slack when they want to, because they can, as we all do in our work when pressure/stakes are low.  But if you fault them for that, you should fault Kyrie for that x10.  The Irving = Westbrook on defense comment is quoteworthy.  :P  That'd be poor form, and I do respect you too much to do that.  But could not disagree more with ya here.

Westbrook is definitely not an elite defender and not only does he have some headscratching breakdowns, but was accused by Lowe of leaving his man in order to pad his rebounding stats.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/11/22/16693192/russell-westbrook-defense-thunder-controller-nba-2k

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5gARTD3Vgo


Regardless, it's awesome to know that we have such a great player and even having these discussions.
claiming Westbrook as an elite defender is akin to saying "I havent watched Russell Westbrook in at least 2 years."
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: Eddie20 on February 27, 2018, 10:38:38 PM
Defense is a lot about effort.  Don’t really mind that he’s not putting in the effort because easy to turn on for the playoffs as long as you have the ability, which he does.

You say he can turn it on whenever he wants.  I'd say bad habits are hard to break.  Even if he starts working harder and 'turns on' his effort in the playoff, he won't have the necessary discipline you'd expect.  To be a good defender, not just a few possessions, you need the discipline and experience to make the impact we need to go far. Even he knows this, he just only applies it to his offense.
Well in that case then no use in complaining about because it ain't changing (since his "bad habits" predate the cetlics).

I'm complaining because he was defending for the first 25 games, then he started doing his old thing.  I just want him to hold himself up to his commitment.  I get Hayward went down so there was a front to convince everyone the season wasn't over. Now that adrenaline wore off, he reverted.  For me, it was like saying he acknowledged the team wasn't going all the way.  It may not be the truth and he just is trying to save his energy, but it is still fishy.
It's hard to compete on defense at a high level and carry an offense for the whole year.

Very few players do that.

You can count them on 1 hand.

Major disservice to the guys who do and tend to be the best players in the league.  If you were to step slightly outside the role of "carrying a an offense," there's a whole lot more than five.
More than 5 guys compete hard on defense and carry their offenses like Irving does?

no way.

Steph and Durant both play hard enough on both sides but neither need to carry that offense. They can split that burden. Paul George is a really good offensive player and he competes on D but he doesnt carry that offense.

I'd say Embiid and AD probably do it, but I think it's different as a big. They dont have to work nearly as hard on either side of the ball to have an impact. I dont watch enough Giannis to know if his defensive workrate is good or if he just coasts off his massive length.

After that, I really cant think of many people. Wall's defensive workrate is bad. Kawhi's was good, but he's not even playing right now. James doesnt really try on D. Jimmy Butler was one of the guys who did, but even he didnt have nearly the offensive responsibilities of Kyrie.

After that you've got who else? Oladipo?

There just arent that many guys who can work as hard as Kyrie has to work on offense then turn around and compete at a high level on defense. It's just one of the drawbacks of smaller guys.

A giannis, or a KD, or an AD can relax on defense and still by ++ players. Point gaurds generally can't. I think if Hayward was healthy, you could demand a lot more from Kyrie, but the #2 option on this team right now is Jaylen Brown. Kyrie has to create a ton and is the sole focus of defenses. Its the same reason IT's defensive workrate was pretty bad last year. Same reason Russ didnt play D last year. Same reason Lebron doesnt play D in the regular season any more. It's virtually impossible to be tasked with that level of offensive creation and still really compete on defense for a full year.

Plenty of guys do it for the playoffs, a small handful do it for 82 games.

These quotes are getting long, but I didn't cut your thoughts.

Davis, Giannis, LeBron, Durant and Westbrook are a quick 5.  They all average more ppg than Kyrie this year, too.  You can argue that KD doesn't have the same offensive burden, but I think it's unfair to penalize him and some others for having more support.  If anything, you could expect Kyrie to be closer to 30 ppg with a larger offensive role and much less defensive effort and responsibility.

Oladipo is having a quietly awesome year.  His ppg are right with Kyrie, too.  He's not playoff proven like Kyrie, but the point is that he's been elite on both ends this season.

Obviously Kawhi.  Chris Paul has done it for well over a decade now.  While he's also older, Marc Gasol has too.  Jimmy Butler is an easy addition.  Paul George, like KD, doesn't have the same burden you mention.. but again, he's averaging 22 ppg.  Klay Thompson is averaging 20 ppg as well.

Lebron hasn't played much defense, in any, this season. Davis had Cousins for a majority of the year, so he didn't have to be leaned on as much. Durant obviously isn't asked to do as much as before. Westbrook is really hyper, but if he's better than Irving defensively it's not by much, as he's usually out of position. Giannis is the only player that clearly is asked to do more on both ends.

I addressed those above.  They're averaging more PPG than Irving and all 5 are elite defenders.  They slack when they want to, because they can, as we all do in our work when pressure/stakes are low.  But if you fault them for that, you should fault Kyrie for that x10.  The Irving = Westbrook on defense comment is quoteworthy.  :P  That'd be poor form, and I do respect you too much to do that.  But could not disagree more with ya here.

Westbrook is definitely not an elite defender and not only does he have some headscratching breakdowns, but was accused by Lowe of leaving his man in order to pad his rebounding stats.

https://www.sbnation.com/2017/11/22/16693192/russell-westbrook-defense-thunder-controller-nba-2k

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m5gARTD3Vgo


Regardless, it's awesome to know that we have such a great player and even having these discussions.
claiming Westbrook as an elite defender is akin to saying "I havent watched Russell Westbrook in at least 2 years."

Exactly. Westbrook has all the physical tools to be an elite defender, but he's not.


These type of plays happen more than you think...
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/JP9hHSMqp5odXd-V0L6Go5CaanI=/0x0:480x266/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:480x266):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9739455/westbrook_dies.gif)
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: LilRip on February 28, 2018, 01:54:38 AM
Just to pile on Westbrook, the dude gets lost too in the most crucial of times. I don’t know if it’s lack of communication or lack of awareness but bottom line, he’s not the stopper he would seem to be.
Title: Re: Kyrie...play a little defense please
Post by: GRADYCOLNON on February 28, 2018, 04:28:38 PM
It is simple.  Those top players play at least average defense to above average.  All I'm asking Irving is to bring his defense to that level.  He is below average because he doesn't focus on improving from his mistakes.  He has the game tape to make these adjustments.  Some of the mistakes he makes are easy fixes.  Getting around screens, sliding your feet to prevent uncontested drives, staying closer to your man to contest shots closer.  But I guess it could be too much to ask our best player, the fancy dribbles are indeed more important.