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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Tr1boy on February 15, 2018, 11:53:19 AM

Title: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 15, 2018, 11:53:19 AM
I would keep Smart over Horford. ... Especially witnessing the horror show that is going on the defensive end

Just zero fight



Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: PhoSita on February 15, 2018, 11:57:31 AM
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/LbfT5qdS9m1zy/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Roy H. on February 15, 2018, 11:58:30 AM
An all-star big man vital on both ends, or a backup guard who only plays effectively on one side of the ball?
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Surferdad on February 15, 2018, 12:00:46 PM
I believe the salaries reflect relative value, in this case.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Monkhouse on February 15, 2018, 12:03:07 PM
I would keep Smart over Horford. ... Especially witnessing the horror show that is going on the defensive end

Just zero fight

This thread is a horror show.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: rondofan1255 on February 15, 2018, 12:05:11 PM
Horford.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Donoghus on February 15, 2018, 12:07:35 PM
C'mon? Seriously?

Let's remove bias from the equation here.   ::)
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 15, 2018, 12:19:04 PM
C'mon? Seriously?

Let's remove bias from the equation here.   ::)

You think with Smart this team gives up 120-130 pts per game?

I thought Horford was like a defensive anchor?

He is no all star. He is an overpaid ineffective player. Plays with no passion, pride

Once Smart returns lets see if we lose 120-130

Disgusting
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Donoghus on February 15, 2018, 12:22:33 PM
C'mon? Seriously?

Let's remove bias from the equation here.   ::)

You think with Smart this team gives up 120-130 pts per game?

I thought Horford was like a defensive anchor?

He is no all star. He is an overpaid ineffective player. Plays with no passion, pride

Once Smart returns lets see if we lose 120-130

Disgusting

This might be in your top 5 hottest (albeit, wrong) takes on these boards which is saying something.

Like I said before, remove your bias from things.  Ineffective, my butt.   You don't even need to dive into analytics to see how off base that is.  Eye test alone will refute that.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 15, 2018, 12:27:10 PM
C'mon? Seriously?

Let's remove bias from the equation here.   ::)

You think with Smart this team gives up 120-130 pts per game?

I thought Horford was like a defensive anchor?

He is no all star. He is an overpaid ineffective player. Plays with no passion, pride

Once Smart returns lets see if we lose 120-130

Disgusting

This might be in your top 5 hottest (albeit, wrong) takes on these boards which is saying something.

Like I said before, remove your bias from things.  Ineffective, my butt.   You don't even need to dive into analytics to see how off base that is.  Eye test alone will refute that.

Eye test?

Tell me how many pts the team has given up in the last 4-5 games or so

You liking what you see?? Giving up 120-130 pts is sickening

Horford might as well sit on the bench. Thats how open the lane is.  He doesnt box out with effort when its called for. Doesnt take a charge....

Just oh well guys, whatever

Smart cant return soon enough. Lets see with Smart back , how many pts this team gives up.  Lets see what your "eyes" tells us then

Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Csfan1984 on February 15, 2018, 12:27:12 PM
Anthony Davis
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Monkhouse on February 15, 2018, 12:31:11 PM
C'mon? Seriously?

Let's remove bias from the equation here.   ::)

You think with Smart this team gives up 120-130 pts per game?

I thought Horford was like a defensive anchor?

He is no all star. He is an overpaid ineffective player. Plays with no passion, pride

Once Smart returns lets see if we lose 120-130

Disgusting

This might be in your top 5 hottest (albeit, wrong) takes on these boards which is saying something.

Like I said before, remove your bias from things.  Ineffective, my butt.   You don't even need to dive into analytics to see how off base that is.  Eye test alone will refute that.

Eye test?

Tell me how many pts the team has given up in the last 4-5 games or so

You liking what you see?? Giving up 120-130 pts is sickening

Horford might as well sit on the bench. Thats how open the lane is.  He doesnt box out with effort when its called for. Doesnt take a charge....

Just oh well guys, whatever

Smart cant return soon enough. Lets see with Smart back , how many pts this team gives up.  Lets see what your "eyes" tells us then

Without Horford, I think we would give up over 130 points...

I don't get your point.

Are you implying Smart is more important than Horford?

That is just not true... Horford and Smart are both needed to help our defensive efforts.

So why not both?
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Donoghus on February 15, 2018, 12:34:35 PM
C'mon? Seriously?

Let's remove bias from the equation here.   ::)

You think with Smart this team gives up 120-130 pts per game?

I thought Horford was like a defensive anchor?

He is no all star. He is an overpaid ineffective player. Plays with no passion, pride

Once Smart returns lets see if we lose 120-130

Disgusting

This might be in your top 5 hottest (albeit, wrong) takes on these boards which is saying something.

Like I said before, remove your bias from things.  Ineffective, my butt.   You don't even need to dive into analytics to see how off base that is.  Eye test alone will refute that.

Eye test?

Tell me how many pts the team has given up in the last 4-5 games or so

You liking what you see?? Giving up 120-130 pts is sickening

Horford might as well sit on the bench. Thats how open the lane is.  He doesnt box out with effort when its called for. Doesnt take a charge....

Just oh well guys, whatever

Smart cant return soon enough. Lets see with Smart back , how many pts this team gives up.  Lets see what your "eyes" tells us then

It's all on Horford how this team has performed the past 4-5 games?  The laziness with the passing, the miscues on the team (not Al, but team) defense, poor shot selection, the inability to finish around the rim, inability to defend the pick & roll, passing up easy shots to kick it back outside, too heavy a reliance on shots behind, etc....?  That's all on Horford, huh?

You're searching for a singular scapegoat when the reality is that this team (yes, team) has been letting itself down with poor play for the past couple of weeks. 

You're also using an insanely small sample size to continue to grind your ax against Horford.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: moiso on February 15, 2018, 12:37:52 PM
Who is more important?  Lebron James or Cedi Osman?
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: jambr380 on February 15, 2018, 01:09:29 PM
I think Horford is clearly more important than Smart, but taking salaries into account and who might be the replacement for Horford, I don't think triboy is so far off. Whether you like Smart or not, he obviously has an impact on our defensive unit as a whole.

There was a poll a few weeks ago about who we thought was the best defensive player on the Cs. At the time, I felt the answer was Horford, but I would like to change my answer to Smart. Positional defense is important, but the way Smart plays defense is uplifting to the whole team.

I have enjoyed watching Horford play and I still want to see him play with Hayward, but I will survive if he is included in a deal for Davis.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: keevsnick on February 15, 2018, 01:43:22 PM
Ya I may be in the minority here but I think Smart has very little to do with out struggles right now. Our big problem has been offense and he isn't helping that much. We were starting to crsck before he went out (losses to Magic and Lakers), he isn't gonna stop Jordan from dropping 30 or Oladipo from netting 35. I know this cuz Oladipo had 38 when smart did play. We just need to play better as a team.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Geo123 on February 15, 2018, 02:30:31 PM
C'mon? Seriously?

Let's remove bias from the equation here.   ::)

+1
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 15, 2018, 02:52:36 PM
I think Horford is clearly more important than Smart, but taking salaries into account and who might be the replacement for Horford, I don't think triboy is so far off. Whether you like Smart or not, he obviously has an impact on our defensive unit as a whole.

There was a poll a few weeks ago about who we thought was the best defensive player on the Cs. At the time, I felt the answer was Horford, but I would like to change my answer to Smart. Positional defense is important, but the way Smart plays defense is uplifting to the whole team.

I have enjoyed watching Horford play and I still want to see him play with Hayward, but I will survive if he is included in a deal for Davis.

+1
Agree
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: green_bballers13 on February 15, 2018, 02:55:16 PM
I appreciate the hot take, but I'm not nibbling on your Horford bait. Guy makes a lot of money, but blame that on Danny. He is an above average player in almost every aspect of the game. Smart is a good defensive player and not a good offensive player.

It's the regular season. No need to freak out over a team that is 40-19 missing Hayward.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 15, 2018, 02:56:41 PM
Ya I may be in the minority here but I think Smart has very little to do with out struggles right now. Our big problem has been offense and he isn't helping that much. We were starting to crsck before he went out (losses to Magic and Lakers), he isn't gonna stop Jordan from dropping 30 or Oladipo from netting 35. I know this cuz Oladipo had 38 when smart did play. We just need to play better as a team.

He may not stop jordan but I bet he does a better job in boxing him out/taking charges ...

Also his ability to inspire the team on defense...unmeasurable

Like Jambr380 stated..I rather keep smart next season and moving forward and replace Horford at half the cost
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 15, 2018, 02:58:03 PM
You cant have a big player who makes as much as Horford does...not protect the rim, not be a defensive anchor

Draymond Green is 6'6... There is no excuse
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: trickybilly on February 15, 2018, 04:18:14 PM
OK, triboy, I'll bite

I voted Horford on the balance of probabilities, but I see where you are going.

If Marcus was shooting 43 from 3 this would be a TOTALLY different conversation though...
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: keevsnick on February 15, 2018, 04:21:15 PM
Ya I may be in the minority here but I think Smart has very little to do with out struggles right now. Our big problem has been offense and he isn't helping that much. We were starting to crsck before he went out (losses to Magic and Lakers), he isn't gonna stop Jordan from dropping 30 or Oladipo from netting 35. I know this cuz Oladipo had 38 when smart did play. We just need to play better as a team.

He may not stop jordan but I bet he does a better job in boxing him out/taking charges ...

Also his ability to inspire the team on defense...unmeasurable

Like Jambr380 stated..I rather keep smart next season and moving forward and replace Horford at half the cost

Then you are gonna have a dramatically worse team.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: green_bballers13 on February 15, 2018, 04:29:50 PM
Ya I may be in the minority here but I think Smart has very little to do with out struggles right now. Our big problem has been offense and he isn't helping that much. We were starting to crsck before he went out (losses to Magic and Lakers), he isn't gonna stop Jordan from dropping 30 or Oladipo from netting 35. I know this cuz Oladipo had 38 when smart did play. We just need to play better as a team.

He may not stop jordan but I bet he does a better job in boxing him out/taking charges ...

Also his ability to inspire the team on defense...unmeasurable

Like Jambr380 stated..I rather keep smart next season and moving forward and replace Horford at half the cost

How?
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: seancally on February 15, 2018, 04:30:01 PM
Ya I may be in the minority here but I think Smart has very little to do with out struggles right now. Our big problem has been offense and he isn't helping that much. We were starting to crsck before he went out (losses to Magic and Lakers), he isn't gonna stop Jordan from dropping 30 or Oladipo from netting 35. I know this cuz Oladipo had 38 when smart did play. We just need to play better as a team.

He may not stop jordan but I bet he does a better job in boxing him out/taking charges ...

Also his ability to inspire the team on defense...unmeasurable

Like Jambr380 stated..I rather keep smart next season and moving forward and replace Horford at half the cost

I'd also say a lot of stopping DJ starts with containing penetration and preventing clear looks for lobs.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: CapnDunks on February 15, 2018, 05:46:51 PM
Draymond Green is horrible defensively. Warriors gave up 120 points twice in the last 5 games. Sound logic. Nevermind that EVERY defensive statistic says otherwise.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: RodyTur10 on February 15, 2018, 06:34:59 PM
I think the question would be better (even though I don't completely dismiss Triboy's case) if the question was ''Who is more important for the Celtics defensively?''.

Horford has been very disappointing defensively lately. His on-ball defense against forwards has been subpar and his help defense has been atrocious. I'm tired of seeing Horford at center, because he's just not a rim protector. Also rebounding has not been good.

Smart is the real anchorman on defense. Still underrated in the league as a defender. The Celtics need Smart. We are a different team without him. Therefore I say that Smart is definitely more important for the Celtics defensively.

 
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Neurotic Guy on February 15, 2018, 06:47:13 PM
I hope teams across the league are asleep at the wheel as the C's defense tanks while their engine heals his hand.   I fully expect the C's defense to pick up after Smart returns.  Whether this is entirely due to Marcus, or partly due to a mid-season lull that would have occurred regardless, I don't know.  But the appearance is that Smart brings a contagious energy to the defensive side of the ball and that his presence is the primary catalyst for the team's defense.   As other GMs notice this, his market price rises.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: mmmmm on February 15, 2018, 07:07:03 PM
This thread is just ... nuts.

Horford's defensive numbers this season are phenomenal and his value to this team on the defensive end alone has dwarfed Smarts total value on both ends.  Seriously.  It is not close.

Not only does Horford typically end up contesting far more shots each game than Smart, he also has a dramatically bigger defensive impact (reduction in opponent efficiency) on those shots.   Horford contests an average of 16.2 shots per game this season, imposing a massive -6.7% DFG% differential.

Smart contests 9.0 shots per game, imposing a -3.3% differential.

And no, despite the rather sad flop of the _team's_ defense the last game, Horford has continued to have this sort of elite defensive impact even through the team's recent struggles.  Over the last 15 games, he's contested 16.7 shots per game and imposed a -7.6% differential.

Add in all the other things Horford does (defensive rebounds, blocks, disruption of passing lanes, hedging, etc.) and it's not remotely close.  Horford's WS/48 rate just for defense alone is twice Smart's _total_ WS/48 rate!

Across the NBA, Horford is 3rd in shots-defended per game, and among the top 10 guys in shots defended per game, he leads by far with the biggest differential.  In fact none of those 10 other players has even a -5.0% differential.

Horford is legitimately going to be in consideration for DPOY this year.   Smart will not be in that conversation.

And then there is offense.   Please.    This should not even be a thread.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: nickagneta on February 15, 2018, 07:13:14 PM
This thread is just ... nuts.

Horford's defensive numbers this season are phenomenal and his value to this team on the defensive end alone has dwarfed Smarts total value on both ends.  Seriously.  It is not close.

Not only does Horford typically end up contesting far more shots each game than Smart, he also has a dramatically bigger defensive impact (reduction in opponent efficiency) on those shots.   Horford contests an average of 16.2 shots per game this season, imposing a massive -6.7% DFG% differential.

Smart contests 9.0 shots per game, imposing a -3.3% differential.

And no, despite the rather sad flop of the _team's_ defense the last game, Horford has continued to have this sort of elite defensive impact even through the team's recent struggles.  Over the last 15 games, he's contested 16.7 shots per game and imposed a -7.6% differential.

Add in all the other things Horford does (defensive rebounds, blocks, disruption of passing lanes, hedging, etc.) and it's not remotely close.  Horford's WS/48 rate just for defense alone is twice Smart's _total_ WS/48 rate!

Across the NBA, Horford is 3rd in shots-defended per game, and among the top 10 guys in shots defended per game, he leads by far with the biggest differential.  In fact none of those 10 other players has even a -5.0% differential.

Horford is legitimately going to be in consideration for DPOY this year.   Smart will not be in that conversation.

And then there is offense.   Please.    This should not even be a thread.
Ding ding ding...we have a winner. TP
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on February 15, 2018, 07:40:37 PM
People seem to forget the losing streak we had when Smart was as healthy as you can get. Nope, we're losing all because Smart is the greatest of all time.   ::)
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Eddie20 on February 15, 2018, 08:02:37 PM
Nice tri, Triboy. However, what made you think that this thread would turn out any differently that the one you had a couple of weeks ago, which was also critical of Horford?

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=95114.0
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: gouki88 on February 15, 2018, 08:09:01 PM
This thread is truly hilarious.

Horford every day and twice on Sundays
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 15, 2018, 09:57:12 PM
This thread is truly hilarious.

Didnt you said the same thing when it was suggested Rondo and his lazy ways/defense was killing the team (prior to being traded) and when suggested it would be a mistake to draft Fultz?  🤔
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 15, 2018, 10:02:40 PM
Nice tri, Triboy. However, what made you think that this thread would turn out any differently that the one you had a couple of weeks ago, which was also critical of Horford?

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=95114.0

How is Dragan Bender doing?   

How many 40 plus point games has the the Suns lost this season?  What a clueless big man defender
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: gouki88 on February 15, 2018, 10:18:49 PM
This thread is truly hilarious.

Didnt you said the same thing when it was suggested Rondo and his lazy ways/defense was killing the team (prior to being traded) and when suggested it would be a mistake to draft Fultz?  🤔
I wasn't even on the forum when Rondo played for us, I was just an observer.

And yeah, I got Fultz wrong - as did literally hundreds of pro scouts
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 23, 2018, 09:19:12 PM
Glad Smart is back. Team defense looked much better

Horford with another vanilla game.   
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: nickagneta on February 23, 2018, 09:47:18 PM
Glad Smart is back. Team defense looked much better

Horford with another vanilla game.
Just going to keep kicking this dog until it's dead, aren't you?

Horford's defense was exceptional tonight. He shut down Blake.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Surferdad on February 23, 2018, 09:48:54 PM
Glad Smart is back. Team defense looked much better

Horford with another vanilla game.
Just going to keep kicking this dog until it's dead, aren't you?

Horford's defense was exceptional tonight. He shut down Blake.
Yup, and he provided help defense on Drummond.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 23, 2018, 09:52:42 PM
Glad Smart is back. Team defense looked much better

Horford with another vanilla game.
Just going to keep kicking this dog until it's dead, aren't you?

Horford's defense was exceptional tonight. He shut down Blake.

Indeed. And it is in fact possible that both players were big contributors. But "either/or"-ism is the Triboy way.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 23, 2018, 10:20:11 PM
Glad Smart is back. Team defense looked much better

Horford with another vanilla game.
Just going to keep kicking this dog until it's dead, aren't you?

Horford's defense was exceptional tonight. He shut down Blake.

Indeed. And it is in fact possible that both players were big contributors. But "either/or"-ism is the Triboy way.

No.

Horford earn your paycheck is the point
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: CelticsJG on February 24, 2018, 01:23:55 AM
Smart more important. He is servicable back up pg at a reason price.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: byennie on February 24, 2018, 02:41:32 AM
Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 24, 2018, 03:57:22 AM
Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

Thats nice but
Without Smart this team would not be +30 rating

With Smart playing, the team doesnt give up 120-130 pts

Team needs to extend Smart after this season. Heart of the team
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: mr. dee on February 24, 2018, 04:14:46 AM
Both are important to the team and the team wouldn't function without either of them. Celtics haven't missed the post season since Smart was drafted. Same with Horford back when he's with the Hawks.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: gouki88 on February 24, 2018, 06:13:34 AM
Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

Thats nice but
Without Smart this team would not be +30 rating

With Smart playing, the team doesnt give up 120-130 pts

Team needs to extend Smart after this season. Heart of the team
You're kind of just saying things without really giving any evidence or anything. Byennie gave solid proof as to why Horford is clearly more valuable, and you just discarded it as if it wasn't there
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on February 24, 2018, 07:07:55 AM
There needs to be a selection for "BOTH".

Cannot believe the disconnect on here concerning how important BOTH of these guys are to our team.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Csfan1984 on February 24, 2018, 09:20:07 AM
Can I select Smart under the following offseason conditions?

- Resign Smart to a MLE level 3 year deal.
-Trade of Tatum, Rozier, Horford, Yab, Morris and two best* first for Davis and Holiday.
-Trade Holiday to Jazz for Burks and Ingles.
-Sign LeBron vet min.
-Resign Monroe

Irving, Brown, Hayward, LeBron, Davis
Smart, Burks, Ingles, Theis, Monroe
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: timpiker on February 24, 2018, 09:49:07 AM
I think they both are equally VERY important
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: dreamgreen on February 24, 2018, 09:50:22 AM
Is this a serious question? ::)
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 24, 2018, 10:12:57 AM
Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

Thats nice but
Without Smart this team would not be +30 rating

With Smart playing, the team doesnt give up 120-130 pts

Team needs to extend Smart after this season. Heart of the team

Incoherent nonsense vs. objective data. It’s so hard to know which to believe.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Donoghus on February 24, 2018, 10:35:00 AM
39-5. 

Pretty even results
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 24, 2018, 12:00:42 PM
Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

Thats nice but
Without Smart this team would not be +30 rating

With Smart playing, the team doesnt give up 120-130 pts

Team needs to extend Smart after this season. Heart of the team

Incoherent nonsense vs. objective data. It’s so hard to know which to believe.

Do you know what Smart is shooting this season or was shooting?  Bc you love objective data/stats he should have been sent to the nbdl or won't fetch more than the MLE in the open market in the upcoming offseason

Is/will this be the case? you tell me.... Part of his contributions on the court are immeasurable... you know this
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 24, 2018, 12:04:22 PM
39-5. 

Pretty even results

Take out Smart and you saw a team functioning on one leg

Take out Horford .... I predict team doesn't play any worse. Especially on the defensive end
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Donoghus on February 24, 2018, 12:05:35 PM
39-5. 

Pretty even results

Take out Smart and you saw a team functioning on one leg

Take out Horford .... I predict team doesn't play any worse. Especially on the defensive end

Did you watch Horford on Griffin last night?
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Tr1boy on February 24, 2018, 12:09:20 PM
39-5. 

Pretty even results

Take out Smart and you saw a team functioning on one leg

Take out Horford .... I predict team doesn't play any worse. Especially on the defensive end

Did you watch Horford on Griffin last night?

yes and he played just ok D on him....while Griffin held Horford to 1-6

On the other hand Theis gave Griffin issues on both ends
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Phantom255x on February 24, 2018, 12:29:40 PM
Did people even see how this team did without Horford??

I think they are both important to us, but come on, I agree the C's looked bad w/o Smart (especially on defense), but I'm pretty sure this team looked extremely dysfunctional in games w/o Horford also (where Smart played those games too).

And what? Horford isn't allowed to have an average/mediocre stretch? Trust me, I'm confident he'll go back to being "youthful" Horford soon!
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Donoghus on February 24, 2018, 12:31:09 PM
39-5. 

Pretty even results

Take out Smart and you saw a team functioning on one leg

Take out Horford .... I predict team doesn't play any worse. Especially on the defensive end

Did you watch Horford on Griffin last night?

yes and he played just ok D on him....while Griffin held Horford to 1-6

On the other hand Theis gave Griffin issues on both ends

Horford held Blake to 1-9 shooting when he was on him.

That's more than "ok" D. 
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 24, 2018, 12:57:55 PM
Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

Thats nice but
Without Smart this team would not be +30 rating

With Smart playing, the team doesnt give up 120-130 pts

Team needs to extend Smart after this season. Heart of the team

Incoherent nonsense vs. objective data. It’s so hard to know which to believe.

Do you know what Smart is shooting this season or was shooting?  Bc you love objective data/stats he should have been sent to the nbdl or won't fetch more than the MLE in the open market in the upcoming offseason

Is/will this be the case? you tell me.... Part of his contributions on the court are immeasurable... you know this

OK, I'll tell you.

His contributions "on the court" are quite measurable, actually.

Despite Smart's poor shooting percentages, the team overall shoots (.512 vs. .517) and scores (107.1 vs 107.7) at about the same rates with him on the court as off the court.

What this means, since he has such bad percentages, is that everyone else actually shoots better with him on the court than when he's not on the court.

And then, our opponents shoot and score at significantly lower rates with him on the court. This is well known.

See? Perfectly measurable. He's a great player who makes the Celtics better when he's on the court. That is LITERALLY what on-court/off-court numbers tell you.

It's ridiculous to argue that he should be sent to the G league because of his shooting percentages. Those numbers obviously don't capture his value, as most people around here seem to understand.

And for you to raise that straw man just means you really don't understand how to use objective data to assess player value. I guess that's why you choose to ignore it.


Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: shrinkage36 on February 24, 2018, 01:46:20 PM
The coaches are the only ones that knows how valuable Smart is to this team. Everyone else, not so much.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Monkhouse on February 24, 2018, 01:59:53 PM
Why can't we both agree, that we clearly need both?
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: IDreamCeltics on February 24, 2018, 02:38:56 PM
I like them both but Smart is just so easily replaceable.  You can literally take any defensive minded guard with no offensive game and plug them into his role and get 80-90% of the same production. 

Guys like him are also ALWAYS available in every draft in the late first through second round too.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on February 24, 2018, 02:54:46 PM
I like them both but Smart is just so easily replaceable.  You can literally take any defensive minded guard with no offensive game and plug them into his role and get 80-90% of the same production. 

Guys like him are also ALWAYS available in every draft in the late first through second round too.

James Harden would disagree.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/xThtafimCcCAbYVTzi/giphy.gif)

Marcus Smart made not ONE but TWO game-winning plays against none other than James Harden.

These two plays ALONE decided our contest against HOU.

Marcus Smart impacts winning. I didn't say it, Coach Stevens did.

Whether it's a charge, a tipped pass, a key assist, a key bucket (rare I know but he does make them from time to time), a key stop....Marcus Smart makes things happen.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 24, 2018, 03:18:56 PM
Yeah. Both players are important -- I refused to vote.

However, its hard to argue that Smart doesn't have an impact. Not only does he raise the energy level of the team when he is in the game (something that is simply not quantifiable by fans, but probably is with the player tracking cameras and teams), but he has single-handedly swung several games, including playoff games.

Those plays against Harden were great, but what about switching on to Milsap in the playoffs? What about his offensive outburst against the Cavs? There are other examples.

I like both players. I'm glad we, as Celtic fans, get to debate silly thoughts like this, while arguably we have 4 (maybe 5 depending on what you think of Rozier) other better scorers on the team.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: dreamgreen on February 24, 2018, 05:53:15 PM
This poll cracks me up lol! So many negative things to say unfortunately I'm not allowed! So I'll say it in basketball terms. If we were all GMs the people that put Smart over Horford would be perennial lottery teams!

I come on here sometimes just for these posts hahaha. It reminds me that there is no hope for some people but I'm glad you're here on CB! :)
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 24, 2018, 06:13:26 PM
This poll cracks me up lol! So many negative things to say unfortunately I'm not allowed! So I'll say it in basketball terms. If we were all GMs the people that put Smart over Horford [every single one of us] would be perennial lottery teams!

I come on here sometimes just for these posts hahaha. It reminds me that there is no hope for some people but I'm glad you're here on CB! :)
fixed.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Ilikesports17 on February 24, 2018, 06:33:57 PM
I like them both but Smart is just so easily replaceable.  You can literally take any defensive minded guard with no offensive game and plug them into his role and get 80-90% of the same production. 

Guys like him are also ALWAYS available in every draft in the late first through second round too.

James Harden would disagree.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/xThtafimCcCAbYVTzi/giphy.gif)

Marcus Smart made not ONE but TWO game-winning plays against none other than James Harden.

These two plays ALONE decided our contest against HOU.

Marcus Smart impacts winning. I didn't say it, Coach Stevens did.

Whether it's a charge, a tipped pass, a key assist, a key bucket (rare I know but he does make them from time to time), a key stop....Marcus Smart makes things happen.
Those two charges were my favorite moments of this season.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Ogaju on February 24, 2018, 06:46:55 PM
Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

Thats nice but
Without Smart this team would not be +30 rating

With Smart playing, the team doesnt give up 120-130 pts

Team needs to extend Smart after this season. Heart of the team

Incoherent nonsense vs. objective data. It’s so hard to know which to believe.

Do you know what Smart is shooting this season or was shooting?  Bc you love objective data/stats he should have been sent to the nbdl or won't fetch more than the MLE in the open market in the upcoming offseason

Is/will this be the case? you tell me.... Part of his contributions on the court are immeasurable... you know this

OK, I'll tell you.

His contributions "on the court" are quite measurable, actually.

Despite Smart's poor shooting percentages, the team overall shoots (.512 vs. .517) and scores (107.1 vs 107.7) at about the same rates with him on the court as off the court.

What this means, since he has such bad percentages, is that everyone else actually shoots better with him on the court than when he's not on the court.

And then, our opponents shoot and score at significantly lower rates with him on the court. This is well known.

See? Perfectly measurable. He's a great player who makes the Celtics better when he's on the court. That is LITERALLY what on-court/off-court numbers tell you.

It's ridiculous to argue that he should be sent to the G league because of his shooting percentages. Those numbers obviously don't capture his value, as most people around here seem to understand.

And for you to raise that straw man just means you really don't understand how to use objective data to assess player value. I guess that's why you choose to ignore it.

So which side are you on here? Triboy or Byennie?
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Ogaju on February 24, 2018, 06:52:30 PM
This poll cracks me up lol! So many negative things to say unfortunately I'm not allowed! So I'll say it in basketball terms. If we were all GMs the people that put Smart over Horford [every single one of us] would be perennial lottery teams!

I come on here sometimes just for these posts hahaha. It reminds me that there is no hope for some people but I'm glad you're here on CB! :)
fixed.

actually that does not fix his post. His post pits the poll participants against each other, not against NBA GMs.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 24, 2018, 07:43:29 PM
This poll cracks me up lol! So many negative things to say unfortunately I'm not allowed! So I'll say it in basketball terms. If we were all GMs the people that put Smart over Horford [every single one of us] would be perennial lottery teams!

I come on here sometimes just for these posts hahaha. It reminds me that there is no hope for some people but I'm glad you're here on CB! :)
fixed.

actually that does not fix his post. His post pits the poll participants against each other, not against NBA GMs.

I bet several posters here would succeed as GMs.  Players have labeled us a 'special' fanbase for a reason.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Boris Badenov on February 24, 2018, 08:15:01 PM
Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

Thats nice but
Without Smart this team would not be +30 rating

With Smart playing, the team doesnt give up 120-130 pts

Team needs to extend Smart after this season. Heart of the team

Incoherent nonsense vs. objective data. It’s so hard to know which to believe.

Do you know what Smart is shooting this season or was shooting?  Bc you love objective data/stats he should have been sent to the nbdl or won't fetch more than the MLE in the open market in the upcoming offseason

Is/will this be the case? you tell me.... Part of his contributions on the court are immeasurable... you know this

OK, I'll tell you.

His contributions "on the court" are quite measurable, actually.

Despite Smart's poor shooting percentages, the team overall shoots (.512 vs. .517) and scores (107.1 vs 107.7) at about the same rates with him on the court as off the court.

What this means, since he has such bad percentages, is that everyone else actually shoots better with him on the court than when he's not on the court.

And then, our opponents shoot and score at significantly lower rates with him on the court. This is well known.

See? Perfectly measurable. He's a great player who makes the Celtics better when he's on the court. That is LITERALLY what on-court/off-court numbers tell you.

It's ridiculous to argue that he should be sent to the G league because of his shooting percentages. Those numbers obviously don't capture his value, as most people around here seem to understand.

And for you to raise that straw man just means you really don't understand how to use objective data to assess player value. I guess that's why you choose to ignore it.

So which side are you on here? Triboy or Byennie?

Oh. I see now that my post mis-attributed that quote to byennie. It was Triboy's.

This is what byennie said:

Quote
Horford:

4th in the league in 3PT% (1st among PF/C)
27th in assists (3rd among PF/C)
27th in rebounds (7th among PF)
Offensive/Defensive Ratings: 116/102
BPM: 4.8

But no, he's not flashy enough and he only scored 3 points in a solid win.

I actually like Smart, but good luck putting together a list like the one above. Worse defensive rating, worse plus/minus, complete opposite shooting, fewer assists (as a point guard), more turnovers, mediocre rebounding. Off the bench.

But as I hope is clear, I really love Smart. But all those same measures Horford look even better. and he's an All-Star if you prefer non-statistical evaluations. He's the straw that stirs the drink, offensively.

And as he displayed against Blake Griffin, he's one of the smartest defenders in the league. He was the equivalent of a great cornerback who jumps every receiver's route before they even run it. He was where Griffin wanted to be a second before Griffin even made his move.


Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 24, 2018, 08:57:59 PM
I voted for Horford before those stats but I feel vindicated.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: SparzWizard on February 24, 2018, 09:55:39 PM
Where the trade Al Horford peeps at now.

Double-double with 13/10!
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: GRADYCOLNON on February 25, 2018, 12:03:07 PM
Offensive value aside, there is a clear disconnect between the type of defense value each of these guys brings to the table. 

Horford is more important because he defends for the team.  He has to deal with Irving's lapse, Brown and Tatum's lapse.  In general, he is the last line of defense.  He is the little Dutch boy with his finger in the [dang].  The value he provides is extremely valuable. 

Smart's value is different.  He can lock down players, switch positions; he's basically a swiss army knife.  He basically makes Horford's job easier and brings energy to the defense. 

Overall, Horford's role is more vital to the defense's success (he plays a position that gets the statistical props for his job.  This is the reason why he has tremendous stats). The only caveat is Horford is more replaceable than Smart.  Plenty of guys in the league do what Horford does on defense.  The same cannot be said for Smart.  What Smart brings to our team is unique. 

This is why it is difficult to compare importance.  Factoring in Horford's defense could and Smart's couldn't be replaced, it changes the entire comparison.  One could argue for either side depending on what they think is more valuable.  I contest we need both of these roles to be successful in this league and it isn't prudent to isolate them as their greatest value is together.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: KGs Knee on February 25, 2018, 01:19:31 PM
Both players are important, there's no denying that.

But Horford is clearly more important. Just about every statistical measure backs that up. Any claim otherwise is just nonsense.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: dreamgreen on February 25, 2018, 01:19:50 PM
Someone can make a threat about this if you want but being realistic what's Smart's value this summer. Meaning what will Danny offer him? Lou Williams just signed for what $7-8 million a year and I'd say they are the polar opposites of each other but IMO it's a good gauge of a guard that comes off the bench. I don't see how Danny offers more than that!
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: IDreamCeltics on February 26, 2018, 07:51:54 AM
This is a weird poll because it pits a guy who is a Max player and all-star against a role-player. 

Smart's a nice player but does anyone ever see him getting a max-deal or being a full time starter? 
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: vjcsmoke on February 26, 2018, 03:19:07 PM
I would keep Smart over Horford. ... Especially witnessing the horror show that is going on the defensive end

Just zero fight

You are lucky they took away the post dislike feature as this is possibly the worst post I have seen on this forum in a long time.  Horford is much more important to the team than Smart.  He is the leading assister on the Celtics, spaces the floor and hits his 3's, plays a tough defensive game, and generally makes his teammates better.  He is also a current all-star player.

Marcus Smart on the other hand broke his hand smashing a picture frame.  This post is ridiculous, we have all lost brain cells by reading it, at no point did it make any intelligible sense, and may god have mercy on your soul. ;)
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: coffee425 on February 26, 2018, 03:21:38 PM
This is a weird poll because it pits a guy who is a Max player and all-star against a role-player. 

Smart's a nice player but does anyone ever see him getting a max-deal or being a full time starter?

If George Hill, Elfrid Payton, Jeff Teague, Andre Roberson can be full-time starters, Smart can...
whether or not it'll be with this team, that's another question.
Title: Re: Who is more important for the Celtics - Horford or Smart?
Post by: vjcsmoke on February 26, 2018, 03:24:21 PM
This is a weird poll because it pits a guy who is a Max player and all-star against a role-player. 

Smart's a nice player but does anyone ever see him getting a max-deal or being a full time starter?

If George Hill, Elfrid Payton, Jeff Teague, Andre Roberson can be full-time starters, Smart can...
whether or not it'll be with this team, that's another question.

And Smart would start over who?  You would bench Jaylen Brown in favor of Smart or would you bench Kyrie?  I don't see it at all.  Yes, Smart is gutsy and makes impressive defensive plays.  But he's not a starter on a team that has title aspirations.  He's a good 6th man/bench role player though.