CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Eddie20 on February 12, 2018, 04:18:22 PM
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I love Stevens, but I don't think's above reproach. Especially when it comes to bigs. Perhaps the problem is that at Butler he never had any good big men, so his offense was predicated on perimeter oriented attack based off ball movement and shooting a lot of 3's (basically living and dying by the 3). So unless you're like Horford who combines 3 PT shooting with really good passing and can thrive playing on the perimeter, then you may not be the best fit for Stevens' scheme.
Sullinger
He comes to the Celtics and turns Sullinger, a very capable post player, into a 3pt shooter. His attempts rise from 0.1 pre-Stevens to 2.8 in Stevens' first year, while shooting 26.9%. The next year he shoots 28.3% on 3.2 attempts. So even though it wasn't working, he continued to let Sullinger jack up 3's. In fact, Sullinger was an excellent mid-range player before Stevens arrived (shooting 53% from 10-16 feet), but that aspect was taking away from his game.
Olynyk
Contrary to popular belief he was actually a pretty good post player in college, but that part of the game wasn't used in the pros. I won't harp on this too much since Olynyk is better suited on the perimeter, but Stevens did say something along the lines of wishing he had used him the way Spolestra is.
Baynes
He seems to want Baynes to start shooting 3's too. This season he's shot 9 so far (all misses), while only attempting 7 in his first 5 seasons combined (1 make). I just don't see this as Baynes' game, preferring that he plays to his strength and be in position to attack the glass to grab offensive rebounds, and it's more of a round hole / square peg approach.
Monroe
Far and away the best post player Stevens' has ever coached, but through 3 games (14 MPG) I do have my concerns about how he'll use him going forward. It just doesn't seem as though he's going to be a good fit in his system.
So is his system suited for bigs? Is he able to adapt based on personnel? Will he continue to play small ball for the sake of playing small, even though we have better bigs than we do wings?
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You probably won't get a ton of agreement, but this is why I'm a highly restrained CBS fan. When the shots are falling for the first 40 games or so he looks like a wunderkind, a genius of the highest order, the greatest coach in NBA history. But the NBA season is long, and you need solid inside post play to get more easy buckets, preserve those legs for jumpers later in the year, and diversify your offense. You see now the impacts of relying too much on jumpers and threes as the year goes on, shooters start to get tired and we're getting blown out nearly every game. You can't maintain the torrid shooting pace we had at the beginning of the year for 82+ games.
I know small-ball is supposedly all the rage, but I am not buying it. There's still a bunch of great big man in the league and we really need it badly. It's like the franchise with the greatest frontline in history has been allergic to the paint since ObieBall.
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Sullinger
He comes to the Celtics and turns Sullinger, a very capable post player, into a 3pt shooter. His attempts rise from 0.1 pre-Stevens to 2.8 in Stevens' first year, while shooting 26.9%. The next year he shoots 28.3% on 3.2 attempts. So even though it wasn't working, he continued to let Sullinger jack up 3's. In fact, Sullinger was an excellent mid-range player before Stevens arrived (shooting 53% from 10-16 feet), but that aspect was taking away from his game.
Excellent? I think your memory is faulty. He was a solid rebounder, he had a decent mid-range even though his FG% were not solid for a PF. None of this matter in the long because his D was poor and he had conditioning issues through out his tenure here and trouble maintaining his weight. Classic case of a guy who played because we had no one better.
0-3 3-10 10-16 16 <3 3P
.667 .302 .533 .360 .200
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sullija01.html
Are you not aware that league wide the mid-range is considered a poor shot by many these days. The game has changed from the pound it in the post days of yore.
https://sports.vice.com/en_au/article/pgj338/numbers-game-how-spatial-analytics-killed-the-mid-range-jump-shot
It was not just CBS, either.
I personally, like post players and the mid range and think they still have a spot in the game, at least they a more fun to watch than guys chucking threes and missing them.
Olynyk was soft at times, and played hard at others.
CBS did not have bigs in college that were dominant. He had Matt Howard:
https://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2011-04-01/final-four-profile-butlers-matt-howard
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You probably won't get a ton of agreement, but this is why I'm a highly restrained CBS fan. When the shots are falling for the first 40 games or so he looks like a wunderkind, a genius of the highest order, the greatest coach in NBA history. But the NBA season is long, and you need solid inside post play to get more easy buckets, preserve those legs for jumpers later in the year, and diversify your offense. You see now the impacts of relying too much on jumpers and threes as the year goes on, shooters start to get tired and we're getting blown out nearly every game. You can't maintain the torrid shooting pace we had at the beginning of the year for 82+ games.
I know small-ball is supposedly all the rage, but I am not buying it. There's still a bunch of great big man in the league and we really need it badly. It's like the franchise with the greatest frontline in history has been allergic to the paint since ObieBall.
I partially agree with your sentiment but it's difficult to find interior big men who have the athleticism to defend against elite teams. Playing against Golden State or Houston requires athleticism, stamina, intelligence and a high motor. I'd much rather have a 6'6-6'9 athletic wing with elite finishing ability.
Where I agree with you is in regards to the grind of an 82 game season. A perfect example of a big we could use is Enes Kanter. He is an excellent interior finisher and offensive rebounder. Not much defense but that's okay.
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Horford thrives under Stevens.
Otherwise, CBS is a reflection of the modern NBA. Big men need to be mobile and need to pass and/or shoot. Passing in particular is important for us.
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Horford thrives under Stevens.
Otherwise, CBS is a reflection of the modern NBA. Big men need to be mobile and need to pass and/or shoot. Passing in particular is important for us.
The ability to operate an effective dribble handoff might be the most important skill for big men in Brad's system.
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You probably won't get a ton of agreement, but this is why I'm a highly restrained CBS fan. When the shots are falling for the first 40 games or so he looks like a wunderkind, a genius of the highest order, the greatest coach in NBA history. But the NBA season is long, and you need solid inside post play to get more easy buckets, preserve those legs for jumpers later in the year, and diversify your offense. You see now the impacts of relying too much on jumpers and threes as the year goes on, shooters start to get tired and we're getting blown out nearly every game. You can't maintain the torrid shooting pace we had at the beginning of the year for 82+ games.
I know small-ball is supposedly all the rage, but I am not buying it. There's still a bunch of great big man in the league and we really need it badly. It's like the franchise with the greatest frontline in history has been allergic to the paint since ObieBall.
I partially agree with your sentiment but it's difficult to find interior big men who have the athleticism to defend against elite teams. Playing against Golden State or Houston requires athleticism, stamina, intelligence and a high motor. I'd much rather have a 6'6-6'9 athletic wing with elite finishing ability.
Where I agree with you is in regards to the grind of an 82 game season. A perfect example of a big we could use is Enes Kanter. He is an excellent interior finisher and offensive rebounder. Not much defense but that's okay.
GS and Hou are two teams in the league. Before we even get there, we will need to face Jonas V, Polish Hammer, TT, etc. These are big strong guys who can score. Simple fact is we are not a complete team as it stands we are a 3-pt jacking team that is right now on track to make zero noise in the playoffs..
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You probably won't get a ton of agreement, but this is why I'm a highly restrained CBS fan. When the shots are falling for the first 40 games or so he looks like a wunderkind, a genius of the highest order, the greatest coach in NBA history. But the NBA season is long, and you need solid inside post play to get more easy buckets, preserve those legs for jumpers later in the year, and diversify your offense. You see now the impacts of relying too much on jumpers and threes as the year goes on, shooters start to get tired and we're getting blown out nearly every game. You can't maintain the torrid shooting pace we had at the beginning of the year for 82+ games.
I know small-ball is supposedly all the rage, but I am not buying it. There's still a bunch of great big man in the league and we really need it badly. It's like the franchise with the greatest frontline in history has been allergic to the paint since ObieBall.
I partially agree with your sentiment but it's difficult to find interior big men who have the athleticism to defend against elite teams. Playing against Golden State or Houston requires athleticism, stamina, intelligence and a high motor. I'd much rather have a 6'6-6'9 athletic wing with elite finishing ability.
Where I agree with you is in regards to the grind of an 82 game season. A perfect example of a big we could use is Enes Kanter. He is an excellent interior finisher and offensive rebounder. Not much defense but that's okay.
GS and Hou are two teams in the league. Before we even get there, we will need to face Jonas V, Polish Hammer, TT, etc. These are big strong guys who can score. Simple fact is we are not a complete team as it stands we are a 3-pt jacking team that is right now on track to make zero noise in the playoffs..
When we were blown out by Toronto JV had 2 points.. They as a team shot 36 3's against us. (we only attempted 23)
Cleveland (TT) an The WIZ are top 10 in 3 point shots..
TT had 6 points vs us The Polish Hammer had 10..
Those big strong guys are not beating us.. Teams are out gunning us from the 3..
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10 minutes just isn't enough for Monroe. 8 pts, 5 reb, and he can't get more PT than 10 minutes. Pretty clear that Stevens isn't comfortable playing Monroe, which is a shame because I was hopeful Stevens would figure how to use his strong inside scoring coming off the bench.
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10 minutes just isn't enough for Monroe. 8 pts, 5 reb, and he can't get more PT than 10 minutes. Pretty clear that Stevens isn't comfortable playing Monroe, which is a shame because I was hopeful Stevens would figure how to use his strong inside scoring coming off the bench.
First, Monroe is trying to acclimate to the team. Second, Monroe is going to have HUGE issues defensively. I’m sure he can guard his man just fine but he’ll onky use that like 10% of the time. He’ll be a big liability playing pick and roll and has virtually no chance to switch and guard effectively.
I think as the season goes he’ll find himself completely out of the lineup actually.
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Sullinger
He comes to the Celtics and turns Sullinger, a very capable post player, into a 3pt shooter. His attempts rise from 0.1 pre-Stevens to 2.8 in Stevens' first year, while shooting 26.9%. The next year he shoots 28.3% on 3.2 attempts. So even though it wasn't working, he continued to let Sullinger jack up 3's. In fact, Sullinger was an excellent mid-range player before Stevens arrived (shooting 53% from 10-16 feet), but that aspect was taking away from his game.
Excellent? I think your memory is faulty. He was a solid rebounder, he had a decent mid-range even though his FG% were not solid for a PF. None of this matter in the long because his D was poor and he had conditioning issues through out his tenure here and trouble maintaining his weight. Classic case of a guy who played because we had no one better.
0-3 3-10 10-16 16 <3 3P
.667 .302 .533 .360 .200
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sullija01.html
Are you not aware that league wide the mid-range is considered a poor shot by many these days. The game has changed from the pound it in the post days of yore.
https://sports.vice.com/en_au/article/pgj338/numbers-game-how-spatial-analytics-killed-the-mid-range-jump-shot
It was not just CBS, either.
I personally, like post players and the mid range and think they still have a spot in the game, at least they a more fun to watch than guys chucking threes and missing them.
Olynyk was soft at times, and played hard at others.
CBS did not have bigs in college that were dominant. He had Matt Howard:
https://www.ncaa.com/video/basketball-men/2011-04-01/final-four-profile-butlers-matt-howard
Sullly put up 40, 31, and 8 today in CHINA!
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10 minutes just isn't enough for Monroe. 8 pts, 5 reb, and he can't get more PT than 10 minutes. Pretty clear that Stevens isn't comfortable playing Monroe, which is a shame because I was hopeful Stevens would figure how to use his strong inside scoring coming off the bench.
First, Monroe is trying to acclimate to the team. Second, Monroe is going to have HUGE issues defensively. I’m sure he can guard his man just fine but he’ll onky use that like 10% of the time. He’ll be a big liability playing pick and roll and has virtually no chance to switch and guard effectively.
I think as the season goes he’ll find himself completely out of the lineup actually.
This just isn’t true. His mobility is no worse than Baynes’ really, and he’s less foul prone. He’s also already the best rebounder on this team.
If he’s out of the rotation by the end of the year then Brad has truly lost his mind in pursuit of “switchability” even when it kills us week in week out
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10 minutes just isn't enough for Monroe. 8 pts, 5 reb, and he can't get more PT than 10 minutes. Pretty clear that Stevens isn't comfortable playing Monroe, which is a shame because I was hopeful Stevens would figure how to use his strong inside scoring coming off the bench.
First, Monroe is trying to acclimate to the team. Second, Monroe is going to have HUGE issues defensively. I’m sure he can guard his man just fine but he’ll onky use that like 10% of the time. He’ll be a big liability playing pick and roll and has virtually no chance to switch and guard effectively.
I think as the season goes he’ll find himself completely out of the lineup actually.
This just isn’t true. His mobility is no worse than Baynes’ really, and he’s less foul prone. He’s also already the best rebounder on this team.
If he’s out of the rotation by the end of the year then Brad has truly lost his mind in pursuit of “switchability” even when it kills us week in week out
Baynes is significantly quicker and more intelligent on defense from what I’ve seen.
Monroe actually has good hands, but that’s the only positive thing I’ll say about his defensive ability. There just isn’t much to hope for on that end of the court. Acclimation with the team might lift him from disastrous to bad, but it’s unlikely that he truly jells in 30 games.
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Morris and Monroe are too slow.
We played better without them.
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is like trying to mix oil and water.
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I say this, Brad over values a utility big and under vales an athletic big,
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Brad Stevens is highly overrated. Not necessarily terrible, usually adequate, but occasionally much worse. We have been pumping him up for years now. Granted, this team overachieved early in the season but has sadly come crashing back down to Earth the last few months. Some of it is certainly the defects in the roster but I'm starting to see an alarming trend of players not giving 100% effort. The lack of in game adjustments and great probability that they will fall behind by 20 points or more is shockingly concerning. We've all seen Brad leave the scrubs in there while leads balloon up. Is Brad too much of a nice guy? I know Danny loves him but I wonder what it would take for Brad to be fired. I'm not suggesting this as we have no replacement but at some point Brad does deserve some criticism.
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I'm certainly not going to call for Kid Wonder's head yet, but if Moose continues to ride the pine in favor of chucking and small ball, it won't be long..
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10 minutes just isn't enough for Monroe. 8 pts, 5 reb, and he can't get more PT than 10 minutes. Pretty clear that Stevens isn't comfortable playing Monroe, which is a shame because I was hopeful Stevens would figure how to use his strong inside scoring coming off the bench.
First, Monroe is trying to acclimate to the team. Second, Monroe is going to have HUGE issues defensively. I’m sure he can guard his man just fine but he’ll onky use that like 10% of the time. He’ll be a big liability playing pick and roll and has virtually no chance to switch and guard effectively.
I think as the season goes he’ll find himself completely out of the lineup actually.
Hmm, not seeing it. He's always been a positive DBPM defender and he's in the top 20% of P&R defenders amongst bigs. Highly underrated defender..
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I'm certainly not going to call for Kid Wonder's head yet, but if Moose continues to ride the pine in favor of chucking and small ball, it won't be long..
Would you please do us all a favor and knock it off with the 'Kid Wonder' nonsense? You have been referencing this term in many of your recent posts like you think it is going to catch on. While Stevens (or any coach) isn't above criticism, it isn't cute or funny and it really only detracts from what you otherwise might have to say.
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Right now Stevens needs to set aside his small ball obsession and be willing to play our big men. The offense doesn't get better enough going small and the defense suffers.
Beyond that, it's roster problems. This is what happens when you lean on Terry Rozier, who can't pass or make any plays for other people, and then have the rest of our roster be the same way with guys like Brown and Tatum able to make a decent assist once in a blue moon. And it's what happens when you don't have knock down 3 point shooters outside of Al and Kyrie (yes, some other guys have quality percentages but still not enough shooting and they are reluctant shooters, especially Tatum these days)
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I'm certainly not going to call for Kid Wonder's head yet, but if Moose continues to ride the pine in favor of chucking and small ball, it won't be long..
Would you please do us all a favor and knock it off with the 'Kid Wonder' nonsense? You have been referencing this term in many of your recent posts like you think it is going to catch on. While Stevens (or any coach) isn't above criticism, it isn't cute or funny and it really only detracts from what you otherwise might have to say.
Maybe I will, maybe I won't. Opinions vary :)
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Unfair to even talk about Monroe's usage at this point. He needs to learn the defensive scheme, more than anything else. Looked lost on a number of rotations. Great rebounder, passer, finisher and I'm sure he'll find a place in our lineup - and that CBS will maximize his talent.
Before we talk about Stevens' ability to use his bigs, go ahead and look at the list of guys he's had to work with. Nothing special, huh? All deeply flawed - and even Horford, easily our best big since Ticket, is really an elite role player. He shines when he doesn't have to be the focal point - moving the ball, playing from the elbow, hitting open shots, anchoring smart defense.
Mainly, while we have played very well, and while this is our best squad under Stevens, we are incomplete. Doesn't mean we still can't make a run at the EC title, but this is how it works: If we make the Finals it's a success of Stevens, if we fall short it's because we don't have the firepower - not because Stevens didn't turn flawed big men into all-stars (well... except for Horford).
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if we fall short it's because we don't have the firepower - not because Stevens didn't turn flawed big men into all-stars (well... except for Horford).
Sure, lets just ignore the fact that Horford was a 4x all-star in Atlanta. In fact, he made the all-star team in 4 out of his last 7 seasons there, which would've likely been more if he hadn't been injured for the majority of 2 seasons. So yeah, Stevens turned him into an all-star.
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if we fall short it's because we don't have the firepower - not because Stevens didn't turn flawed big men into all-stars (well... except for Horford).
Sure, lets just ignore the fact that Horford was a 4x all-star in Atlanta. In fact, he made the all-star team in 4 out of his last 7 seasons there, which would've likely been more if he hadn't been injured for the majority of 2 seasons. So yeah, Stevens turned him into an all-star.
I might not argue that Horford was actually a better player in Atlanta, although a case could be made.
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You probably won't get a ton of agreement, but this is why I'm a highly restrained CBS fan. When the shots are falling for the first 40 games or so he looks like a wunderkind, a genius of the highest order, the greatest coach in NBA history. But the NBA season is long, and you need solid inside post play to get more easy buckets, preserve those legs for jumpers later in the year, and diversify your offense. You see now the impacts of relying too much on jumpers and threes as the year goes on, shooters start to get tired and we're getting blown out nearly every game. You can't maintain the torrid shooting pace we had at the beginning of the year for 82+ games.
I know small-ball is supposedly all the rage, but I am not buying it. There's still a bunch of great big man in the league and we really need it badly. It's like the franchise with the greatest frontline in history has been allergic to the paint since ObieBall.
I'm with you. The only ways small ball can work are 1) if you have 3 or 4 all-star shooters like the Warriors, and 2) if you have LeBron. We have neither of those things.
Plus, if the Celtics are exhausted only halfway through the season, there's not much hope of running other teams off the court, which is kinda the point of small ball in the first place.
And besides all of that, the playoffs are mostly a halfcourt game, and small teams get killed in the halfcourt (unless you have one of the two things I noted earlier, which we don't).
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Right now Stevens needs to set aside his small ball obsession and be willing to play our big men. The offense doesn't get better enough going small and the defense suffers.
You'd think that will almost be a no-brainer now that we only had 3 healthy guards (and 9 rotation caliber players overall). Not to our coaching staff, I guess.
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You probably won't get a ton of agreement, but this is why I'm a highly restrained CBS fan. When the shots are falling for the first 40 games or so he looks like a wunderkind, a genius of the highest order, the greatest coach in NBA history. But the NBA season is long, and you need solid inside post play to get more easy buckets, preserve those legs for jumpers later in the year, and diversify your offense. You see now the impacts of relying too much on jumpers and threes as the year goes on, shooters start to get tired and we're getting blown out nearly every game. You can't maintain the torrid shooting pace we had at the beginning of the year for 82+ games.
I know small-ball is supposedly all the rage, but I am not buying it. There's still a bunch of great big man in the league and we really need it badly. It's like the franchise with the greatest frontline in history has been allergic to the paint since ObieBall.
I'm with you. The only ways small ball can work are 1) if you have 3 or 4 all-star shooters like the Warriors, and 2) if you have LeBron. We have neither of those things.
Plus, if the Celtics are exhausted only halfway through the season, there's not much hope of running other teams off the court, which is kinda the point of small ball in the first place.
And besides all of that, the playoffs are mostly a halfcourt game, and small teams get killed in the halfcourt (unless you have one of the two things I noted earlier, which we don't).
Couldn't agree more. The NBA, like the NFL is a copycat league so now you have everyone in the L thinking they can play like the Warriors. LOL. Just doesn't work. Like you said when you have 3 of the best shooters to every play and a talented cast surrounding them it works. Or you have a GOAT candidate cyborg who is built like a 6'9" linebacker. Otherwise you need a way to generate a half-court offense that can score when the game always slows down in the playoffs and keep your legs fresh as the season goes on..
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Brad Stevens is highly overrated. Not necessarily terrible, usually adequate, but occasionally much worse. We have been pumping him up for years now. Granted, this team overachieved early in the season but has sadly come crashing back down to Earth the last few months. Some of it is certainly the defects in the roster but I'm starting to see an alarming trend of players not giving 100% effort. The lack of in game adjustments and great probability that they will fall behind by 20 points or more is shockingly concerning. We've all seen Brad leave the scrubs in there while leads balloon up. Is Brad too much of a nice guy? I know Danny loves him but I wonder what it would take for Brad to be fired. I'm not suggesting this as we have no replacement but at some point Brad does deserve some criticism.
So you took the regular season and made this conclusion...
nice, nice
We've never really had a great post player, until we signed Monroe. Since Monroe is out of shape, I want to see how he'll fit into the system once the All-Star Break is over.
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Mostly, I think Stevens has been given a bit of a free pass in regards to criticism. I think much of the current Celtics problems are roster related and not easily fixable. However, when lack of effort becomes a recurring problem we have to look at the coaching. I think overall he has done a fine job but the trends of late are pretty alarming.
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if we fall short it's because we don't have the firepower - not because Stevens didn't turn flawed big men into all-stars (well... except for Horford).
Sure, lets just ignore the fact that Horford was a 4x all-star in Atlanta. In fact, he made the all-star team in 4 out of his last 7 seasons there, which would've likely been more if he hadn't been injured for the majority of 2 seasons. So yeah, Stevens turned him into an all-star.
Good point.
Still a flawed big man who has had success playing within a strong system.