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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Green-18 on February 11, 2018, 08:32:18 AM

Title: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Green-18 on February 11, 2018, 08:32:18 AM
I think we are deep enough into the season to conclude that points simply won't come easy to this years Celtics.  People on this forum have questioned Brad Steven's ability as an offensive coach.  It's important to realize that the Warriors and Raptors are the ONLY teams to rank in the top 10 in offensive and defensive rating. 

Brad has maximized the potential of one of the youngest teams in the league, especially in regards to Tatum and Jaylen.  I believe fans are beginning to have an inflated opinion of their capabilities because both have been put in spots that cater to their strengths.  Keep in mind that I am only talking about Jaylen and Tatum right now.  Both have Superstar potential going forward.

Brad recently mentioned that the team hasn't looked crisp for most of the season.  This is a problem because we need to work hard to score.  The honest truth is that Kyrie Irving is the only player on the team that can be labeled as a "professional scorer". 

My final takeaway is that our best chance in the playoffs is to regain our mojo as the top defensive team in the NBA.  The rankings say we are still #1 in defense but we aren't playing anywhere near our peak from early in the season.  The playoffs are going to be a grind with a bunch of close games.    The good news is that Kyrie, Tatum, and Horford have all been excellent at delivering big buckets in crunch time.  I can't forget about Terry either. 
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: TomHeinsohn on February 11, 2018, 08:55:15 AM
Once Marcus Morris' minutes start going to Moose, the offense will improve.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Chris22 on February 11, 2018, 09:01:26 AM
Our offense looked great when Morris and Kyrie were out.
Now its back to iso basketball.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Green-18 on February 11, 2018, 09:12:18 AM
Our offense looked great when Morris and Kyrie were out.
Now its back to iso basketball.

It's really not that simple.  Effort has been an issue but this is really about our performance against elite competition.  We blew out a Knicks squad that only competes on their home floor.  Then we destroyed the Atlanta Hawks.  The game against Portland was far from an offensive masterpiece.

I'm not worried about the team slipping into isolation basketball when they play elite teams in the postseason.  Effort hasn't been a problem in marquee match-ups, with the exception of Toronto last week.  My real concern is that we wont be able to execute for 48 minutes consistently against elite competition.  The Celtics will need to grind out wins on the strength of their defense and clutch shooting.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Green-18 on February 11, 2018, 09:21:32 AM
Once Marcus Morris' minutes start going to Moose, the offense will improve.

Monroe gives us post scoring and offensive rebounding but I don't expect massive improvements.  Monroe is another tool that Brad can employ in the right match-ups. 

When push comes to shove it's going to be a grind in the playoffs.  High scoring games will not play to our strengths.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Surferdad on February 11, 2018, 09:36:48 AM
Tatum has hit the rookie wall.  I am not surprised nor disappointed.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: celticinorlando on February 11, 2018, 09:44:25 AM
A few things:

1. this team is tired...with the All Star break being so much later, they are worn out.

2. Team counts on the 3 ball way too much. A lot of poor shot selections early in the shot clock from 3.

3. Ball is sticking way too much.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Rosco917 on February 11, 2018, 10:45:49 AM
The C's offense is in need of ball movement.

Too often Kyrie looks for his shot too early in the clock. Just as IT did last year. It's not either of there faults, the Celtics again are missing that consistent second scorer.

When the season first began Kyrie was being much more of a PG-distributor, and this team rattled off win after win.

The Celtic are in need of a true PG at times, allowing Kyrie to slide to the 2 guard, giving other players touches.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: GreenWarrior on February 11, 2018, 10:46:08 AM
i'll throw my 2 cents in here.

we definitely are a tired bunch - I wish our guys didn't have to participate in AS weekend.

we are relying on a lot of young guys and no matter what happens at the end of the season it was really going to end only one way - and that was at best a 2nd rnd exit.

and that's really ok. I hope that these guys don't think that way but as fans I think that's an amazing feat for a team that got overhauled with a majority of younger players... that never happens.

with all that said i'm convinced this team doesn't have to be as bad as they are offensively. and I know many here won't agree but this team offensively looks the same as every brad stevens team... I see the trend.

guys have been encouraged to shoot long contested shots since his 1st season here and no one drives with regularity and when they do they rarely finish. I believe that happens because they don't do it enough. this sounds a lot like last yr's team and the team before that and so on.

another thing I see wrong with this offense and I've mentioned this before is after a def. rebound these guys look to get the ball to the PG too much. this allows the D to get back instead of giving us man advantage situations. it also bogs the offense down to a crawl and every possession ending in a guy having to make a miracle shot.

and I know why stevens has them playing this way - to limit turnovers because of the young guys. he's playing safe and I never agree with playing this way.

I think if JB and tatum got more open court opportunities we wouldn't see tatum struggling as much(regardless of the injury)... young guys need to see the ball go in.

also not sure why they don't run more plays for tatum early in games, get him integrated early. the veterans like kyrie and horford will find their spots JB and tatum need to know they're involved and it would also show a little confidence in them to get the team going early. 
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: CelticSooner on February 11, 2018, 08:20:38 PM
The C's are 21st in offensive efficiency in the league. The only playoff team with a worse rating than that is Miami at 25. Winning in the playoffs going to be very hard to come by when you are only playing well on one side of the ball.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: chiken Green on February 11, 2018, 09:09:42 PM
1. Kyrie Needs another consistent 20 plus point Scorer to take the pressure off... (there is a reason why he said the other day that he dreams of what life will be like playing with Gordon)
2. We give Jason a pass for hitting the Rookie wall and rightfully so... But he is not the only Rookie that we are depending on.  Brown is not a Rookie but he is a 1st-time starter...
3. Being the TOP team in the east this year put a ton of pressure on this young team..  We are constantly getting everyone's grade A best shot... It was eventually going to catch up...
4. A Focused Lebron has been destroying the East for almost a decade now... He has ramped up to that next level.. We should have seen this Arsewhooping coming a mile away...
5. Our problem is Youth and a lack of Experience... We can only solve that by playing...,

This team will be amazing. Just not this year...  We all knew next year was the year, Even with Gordon..  We will be a tough out but our Horses are just Ponies at the moment...  Just need time. 



 
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Green-18 on February 12, 2018, 08:56:11 AM
Great points by a lot of people in this thread.  I think an important thing to consider is the fact that Brad doesn't sacrifice defense for offense.  CBS is holding this group to the standard of a championship caliber team.  It's very difficult for young players to maintain 100% effort on the defensive end while scoring at an efficient rate.  Lot's of growing pains for sure.   

Right now the Raptors and Warriors are the only two teams who are elite at both ends of the court.  The Warriors are no surprise.  As for Toronto, they did an excellent job of piecing together a roster that complements Lowry and DeRozan.  I still don't think they will get past a rejuvenated LeBron squad but a 7 games series is possible.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: dreamgreen on February 12, 2018, 09:14:32 AM
Kyrie and MM pound the air out of the ball when they have it. Need a lot more passing, standing out at the 3 point line all day isn't going to beat good teams!
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: KGBirdBias on February 12, 2018, 09:19:24 AM
This team lacks toughness. We have too many nice guys...we need more dogs. Kyrie and Horford are quiet leaders and need to be a more vocal. Last year's team had something to prove. This team is better but Kyrie need to come out form the beginning of games and be ready to play. When Rozier was starting we didn't have to over come these 20 point leads. Team is settling for too many jumpers and I rarely see cutters for easy baskets.

Has anyone seen the stat of when Baynes plays more than 20 mins...the Celtics are almost unbeatable. When Baynes plays less than 20 mins...the losses start piling up. Weird stat.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: PhoSita on February 12, 2018, 09:50:10 AM
Let's discuss our offense -- we're missing our second best scorer, and without him, have only one guy who can consistently score 20 on any given night.  The next best scorer is a guy who comfortably scores at most 14-15 a night and is at his best when creating opportunities for others.


So, yeah.  Not a surprise that points aren't coming easy.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: jr_3421 on February 12, 2018, 10:29:38 AM
My first fix would be Theis starting. He gives us more versatility on defense and offense. Baynes is more reliable but at this point I would go with more upside and spacing since Horford is so consistent. Then Brad would have to choose between Moose or Mook because those two can definitely not play together defensively. Either Mook with Baynes or Moose with Tatum as the second unit frontcourt. But since Brad seems loyal to Baynes and Mook's ego needs to be carefully managed, I doubt any of this possible without injury.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: kozlodoev on February 12, 2018, 10:31:08 AM
Let's discuss our offense. No movement, lazy basketball, overreliance on the three pointer to bail us out of tough situation. This kind of worked a bit better, until we decided to apply the "no movement, lazy basketball" approach to defense as well.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Green-18 on February 12, 2018, 10:34:53 AM
Let's discuss our offense -- we're missing our second best scorer, and without him, have only one guy who can consistently score 20 on any given night.  The next best scorer is a guy who comfortably scores at most 14-15 a night and is at his best when creating opportunities for others.


So, yeah.  Not a surprise that points aren't coming easy.

Very true.  My motivation for starting this thread was based upon people criticizing CBS' abilities as an offensive coach.  He simply doesn't have the horses in the race yet. 
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: kozlodoev on February 12, 2018, 10:38:18 AM
Let's discuss our offense -- we're missing our second best scorer, and without him, have only one guy who can consistently score 20 on any given night.  The next best scorer is a guy who comfortably scores at most 14-15 a night and is at his best when creating opportunities for others.


So, yeah.  Not a surprise that points aren't coming easy.

Very true.  My motivation for starting this thread was based upon people criticizing CBS' abilities as an offensive coach.  He simply doesn't have the horses in the race yet.
Well, it IS true that if you add enough offensive weapons, eventually you won't really need to coach. That seems to be what Brad Stevens' offensive philosophy amounts to these days.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Green-18 on February 12, 2018, 10:50:40 AM
Let's discuss our offense -- we're missing our second best scorer, and without him, have only one guy who can consistently score 20 on any given night.  The next best scorer is a guy who comfortably scores at most 14-15 a night and is at his best when creating opportunities for others.


So, yeah.  Not a surprise that points aren't coming easy.

Very true.  My motivation for starting this thread was based upon people criticizing CBS' abilities as an offensive coach.  He simply doesn't have the horses in the race yet.
Well, it IS true that if you add enough offensive weapons, eventually you won't really need to coach. That seems to be what Brad Stevens' offensive philosophy amounts to.

That's simply not true.  Kyrie and LeBron made it a specific point to mention how impressive the Celtics offensive set's were when we played them in the 2015 playoffs.  Greg Poppovich studies our film to get new ideas.  Brad gets the most out of his players for the most part.

I use the Warriors and Thunder as textbook examples of why coaching is so important.  Under Mark Jackson the Warriors were one of the WORST passing teams in the NBA.  Their talent alone won 50 games but look what happened when Kerr took over.  There's a great article that discusses how Kerr told the team they needed to completely change their style of play.  It took a few months but they became a historic offense within 6 months.

As for the Thunder, they have a trio of talented scorers but a mediocre offensive scheme.  It was the same way when Durant was still there.   

Brad is almost a victim of his own success with this current group.  Our defense helped us win so many games that the average fan overlooked our offensive woes.  There isn't a single player on this team other than Kyrie that can create offense against elite competition.  Who else can run a pick & roll while being a threat to score?  Who is the knockdown shooter that can drill shots coming off screens?

Our offensive results are in line with the talent and youth of this team.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Rosco917 on February 12, 2018, 10:57:41 AM
The Celtics need a PG that can run offensive sets. Kyrie, just like IT before him take it upon themselves to be the main scorer when the team begins to falter, and the rest of the team stops moving and begin taking turns going iso. Spacing suffers because everyone stops moving.

This team misses Smart and Larkin. Smart for many reasons, but Larkin because he gets Kyrie moving without the ball, and the rest of the players on the floor follows suit.

This team needs to look at film of the winning streak, and see that Kyrie was averaging just around 20 a game, taking fewer shots, and passing the ball to the open man more.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Green-18 on February 12, 2018, 11:04:39 AM
The Celtics need a PG that can run offensive sets. Kyrie, just like IT before him take it upon themselves to be the main scorer when the team begins to falter, and the rest of the team stops moving and begin taking turns going iso. Spacing suffers because everyone stops moving.

This team misses Smart and Larkin. Smart for many reasons, but Larkin because he gets Kyrie moving without the ball, and the rest of the players on the floor follows suit.

This team needs to look at film of the winning streak, and see that Kyrie was averaging just around 20 a game, taking fewer shots, and passing the ball to the open man more.

Marcus is desperately needed on both ends of the court.  Larkin has also been an excellent 4th quarter spark plug. 

It would be nice to have a pick & roll player who is a threat to score.  Aside from Kyrie, each player has a fatal flaw in regards to running an offense.   
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: kozlodoev on February 12, 2018, 11:08:01 AM
That's simply not true.  Kyrie and LeBron made it a specific point to mention how impressive the Celtics offensive set's were when we played them in the 2015 playoffs.  Greg Poppovich studies our film to get new ideas.  Brad gets the most out of his players for the most part.
Awwww, how nicely it tickles the ego when the NBA greats give you lip service. How did LeBron and Pop get by before they had Brad S to rip stuff off of.

I use the Warriors and Thunder as textbook examples of why coaching is so important.  Under Mark Jackson the Warriors were one of the WORST passing teams in the NBA.  Their talent alone won 50 games but look what happened when Kerr took over.  There's a great article that discusses how Kerr told the team they needed to completely change their style of play.  It took a few months but they became a historic offense in 6 months.
Yes, coaching is very important. That's how we know exactly where we need to point the finger. This team is 21st in offense in the league -- Hayward or no Hayward, it has no business being sandwiched between DAL and ATL.

Brad is almost a victim of his own success with this current group.  Our defense helped us win so many games that the average fan overlooked our offensive woes.
The current group has Kyrie Irving and Al Horford. Some teams do more with less offensively.

There isn't a single player on this team other than Kyrie that can create offense against elite competition.  Who else can run a pick & roll while being a threat to score?  Who is the knockdown shooter that can drill shots coming off screens?
I thought Brad S had a great playbook, the envy of Pop and LeBron. That all he's got, pick and roll with a guard and running shooters off of screen? The oldest horse in the NBA that every assistant coach in the league can diagram with one eye closed and one hand tied behind his back? LOL.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Green-18 on February 12, 2018, 11:16:13 AM
That's simply not true.  Kyrie and LeBron made it a specific point to mention how impressive the Celtics offensive set's were when we played them in the 2015 playoffs.  Greg Poppovich studies our film to get new ideas.  Brad gets the most out of his players for the most part.
Awwww, how nicely it tickles the ego when the NBA greats give you lip service. How did LeBron and Pop get by before they had Brad S to rip stuff off of.

I use the Warriors and Thunder as textbook examples of why coaching is so important.  Under Mark Jackson the Warriors were one of the WORST passing teams in the NBA.  Their talent alone won 50 games but look what happened when Kerr took over.  There's a great article that discusses how Kerr told the team they needed to completely change their style of play.  It took a few months but they became a historic offense in 6 months.
Yes, coaching is very important. That's how we know exactly where we need to point the finger. This team is 21st in offense in the league -- Hayward or no Hayward, it has no business being sandwiched between DAL and ATL.

Brad is almost a victim of his own success with this current group.  Our defense helped us win so many games that the average fan overlooked our offensive woes.
The current group has Kyrie Irving and Al Horford. Some teams do more with less offensively.

There isn't a single player on this team other than Kyrie that can create offense against elite competition.  Who else can run a pick & roll while being a threat to score?  Who is the knockdown shooter that can drill shots coming off screens?
I thought Brad S had a great playbook, the envy of Pop and LeBron. That all he's got, pick and roll with a guard and running shooters off of screen? The oldest horse in the NBA that every assistant coach in the league can diagram with one eye closed and one hand tied behind his back? LOL.

Brad's sets have definitely been simplified with this young group.  I will grant you that.  This is something he has acknowledged multiple times.  Just don't pretend that he doesn't have a lot more with a veteran group of players.

As for our offensive efficiency, are you going to ignore the fact that Toronto and Golden State are the only two teams the rank in the top 10 in both offensive and defensive efficiency?  Yes, we have Horford and Kyrie.  However, many of the teams that do "more with less" don't put forth consistent energy and effort on defense.  Brad is trying to teach habits that are required to be a championship caliber team.  We could probably cut corners on defense and save energy for the other end of the floor.

There's no doubt that the offense can be better.  My question is what is your ceiling given the youth on the our roster?  What is the potential of this offense while maintaining a top 3 defense?  I don't believe we have the experience to be elite in both areas.

Also, your LeBron joke serves no purpose in this debate.  I can't stand LeBron but he is an absolute freak who is the exception to most rules in regards to team building.  The good news is that he usually gets dethroned by elite coaches and teams in the Finals.

Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: kozlodoev on February 12, 2018, 11:37:49 AM
Brad's sets have definitely been simplified with this young group.  I will grant you that.  This is something he has acknowledged multiple times.  Just don't pretend that he doesn't have a lot more with a veteran group of players.
This team is young, but let's not pretend that we're playing 10 rookies out there. Right now, 5 of the 9 rotation guys have 5 or more years of NBA tenure. Sure, you still have to deal with having two 20-year-olds play a prominent role in your starting lineup, but all main guys not named Brown or Tatum have been in the NBA for 2+ years.

As for our offensive efficiency, are you going to ignore the fact that Toronto and Golden State are the only two teams the rank in the top 10 in both offensive and defensive efficiency?  Yes, we have Horford and Kyrie.  However, many of the teams that do "more with less" don't put forth consistent energy and effort on defense.  Brad is trying to teach habits that are required to be a championship caliber team.  We could probably cut corners on defense and save energy for the other end of the floor.
We haven't put "consistent energy and effort on defense" now for weeks. It has allowed us to pound the ball a lot longer on offense, so I'll grant you that :P

That bit about teaching habits is quite funny, because the Celtics have now regressed into pretty much everything that bad teams don't and good teams do, and Brad has repeatedly refused to enforce any accountability. This includes, but is not limited to, playing hero ball, jacking up bad jumpers, turning the ball over, not boxing out, and not rotating defensively). I've forgotten the last time he's sat someone for poor execution... although he routinely sits players for no reason whatsoever.

There's no doubt that the offense can be better.  My question is what is your ceiling given the youth on the our roster?  What is the potential of this offense while maintaining a top 3 defense?  I don't believe we have the experience to be elite in both areas.
Doesn't have to be "my ceiling". This group clearly established what their ceiling is when they run the ball and don't settle for lazy jumpers. There's no excuse for this team to not have an offense that's as a minimum above the NBA average.

Also, your LeBron joke serves no purpose in this debate.  I can't stand LeBron but he is an absolute freak who is the exception to most rules in regards to team building.  The good news is that he usually gets dethroned by elite coaches and teams in the Finals.
Bad news is there's a shortage of elite coaches in the East.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Green-18 on February 12, 2018, 11:46:28 AM
Brad's sets have definitely been simplified with this young group.  I will grant you that.  This is something he has acknowledged multiple times.  Just don't pretend that he doesn't have a lot more with a veteran group of players.
This team is young, but let's not pretend that we're playing 10 rookies out there. Right now, 5 of the 9 rotation guys have 5 or more years of NBA tenure. Sure, you still have to deal with having two 20-year-olds play a prominent role in your starting lineup, but all main guys not named Brown or Tatum have been in the NBA for 2+ years.

As for our offensive efficiency, are you going to ignore the fact that Toronto and Golden State are the only two teams the rank in the top 10 in both offensive and defensive efficiency?  Yes, we have Horford and Kyrie.  However, many of the teams that do "more with less" don't put forth consistent energy and effort on defense.  Brad is trying to teach habits that are required to be a championship caliber team.  We could probably cut corners on defense and save energy for the other end of the floor.
We haven't put "consistent energy and effort on defense" now for weeks. It has allowed us to pound the ball a lot longer on offense, so I'll grant you that :P

That bit about teaching habits is quite funny, because the Celtics have now regressed into pretty much everything that bad teams don't and good teams do, and Brad has repeatedly refused to enforce any accountability. This includes, but is not limited to, playing hero ball, jacking up bad jumpers, turning the ball over, not boxing out, and not rotating defensively). I've forgotten the last time he's sat someone for poor execution... although he routinely sits players for no reason whatsoever.

There's no doubt that the offense can be better.  My question is what is your ceiling given the youth on the our roster?  What is the potential of this offense while maintaining a top 3 defense?  I don't believe we have the experience to be elite in both areas.
Doesn't have to be "my ceiling". This group clearly established what their ceiling is when they run the ball and don't settle for lazy jumpers. There's no excuse for this team to not have an offense that's as a minimum above the NBA average.

Also, your LeBron joke serves no purpose in this debate.  I can't stand LeBron but he is an absolute freak who is the exception to most rules in regards to team building.  The good news is that he usually gets dethroned by elite coaches and teams in the Finals.
Bad news is there's a shortage of elite coaches in the East.

Fair points.  I think we are roughly on the same page regarding the ceiling of the offense.  Slightly above average with an elite defense sounds about right.  Personally I am willing to grant Brad the benefit of the doubt until we see how the team looks after the All-Star break. 

On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: JHTruth on February 12, 2018, 11:58:09 AM
Brad's sets have definitely been simplified with this young group.  I will grant you that.  This is something he has acknowledged multiple times.  Just don't pretend that he doesn't have a lot more with a veteran group of players.
This team is young, but let's not pretend that we're playing 10 rookies out there. Right now, 5 of the 9 rotation guys have 5 or more years of NBA tenure. Sure, you still have to deal with having two 20-year-olds play a prominent role in your starting lineup, but all main guys not named Brown or Tatum have been in the NBA for 2+ years.

As for our offensive efficiency, are you going to ignore the fact that Toronto and Golden State are the only two teams the rank in the top 10 in both offensive and defensive efficiency?  Yes, we have Horford and Kyrie.  However, many of the teams that do "more with less" don't put forth consistent energy and effort on defense.  Brad is trying to teach habits that are required to be a championship caliber team.  We could probably cut corners on defense and save energy for the other end of the floor.
We haven't put "consistent energy and effort on defense" now for weeks. It has allowed us to pound the ball a lot longer on offense, so I'll grant you that :P

That bit about teaching habits is quite funny, because the Celtics have now regressed into pretty much everything that bad teams don't and good teams do, and Brad has repeatedly refused to enforce any accountability. This includes, but is not limited to, playing hero ball, jacking up bad jumpers, turning the ball over, not boxing out, and not rotating defensively). I've forgotten the last time he's sat someone for poor execution... although he routinely sits players for no reason whatsoever.

There's no doubt that the offense can be better.  My question is what is your ceiling given the youth on the our roster?  What is the potential of this offense while maintaining a top 3 defense?  I don't believe we have the experience to be elite in both areas.
Doesn't have to be "my ceiling". This group clearly established what their ceiling is when they run the ball and don't settle for lazy jumpers. There's no excuse for this team to not have an offense that's as a minimum above the NBA average.

Also, your LeBron joke serves no purpose in this debate.  I can't stand LeBron but he is an absolute freak who is the exception to most rules in regards to team building.  The good news is that he usually gets dethroned by elite coaches and teams in the Finals.
Bad news is there's a shortage of elite coaches in the East.

Fair points.  I think we are roughly on the same page regarding the ceiling of the offense.  Slightly above average with an elite defense sounds about right.  Personally I am willing to grant Brad the benefit of the doubt until we see how the team looks after the All-Star break. 

On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.

Baynes is simply a horrific offensive player, and every stat you'll see bears that out. He is a back-up C at best, and his dismal offense is simply not a luxury we can afford down the stretch and into the playoffs. At this point you need to find a way to integrate Monroe into the offense and give him a viable role, even if it comes at the expense of some defense, although for the record I think Monroe can be at least serviceable on D. Maybe if we had a better offense we could hide Baynes on O, we just can't at this point. We need to drastically improve our O to have any chance of advancing.

Bottom line we have no playmaking or passing out there anymore. The team shot 38 3s against the Cavs and couldn't break 100. The offense couldn't have been more inefficient. No attacking the rim, and little to no post play. It needs to change or we could be seeing a 1st round exit.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: kozlodoev on February 12, 2018, 11:58:51 AM
On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.
Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence that this team fared a lot better when Baynes was fresh (general understanding seems to be he has stamina issues, hence why his role in the NBA has been limited so far). He seems clearly worn down to me.

He was more important on the defensive end (clearing space for rebounds and challenging shots), but there have been some troubling trends on the offense as well. I don't understand why they decided to have him drift to the corner for threes. One, he's nearly automatic on short jumpers, and two, if he's starting to lose his legs having him jack longer jump shots isn't going to make it better.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: JHTruth on February 12, 2018, 12:09:25 PM
On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.
Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence that this team fared a lot better when Baynes was fresh (general understanding seems to be he has stamina issues, hence why his role in the NBA has been limited so far). He seems clearly worn down to me.

He was more important on the defensive end (clearing space for rebounds and challenging shots), but there have been some troubling trends on the offense as well. I don't understand why they decided to have him drift to the corner for threes. One, he's nearly automatic on short jumpers, and two, if he's starting to lose his legs having him jack longer jump shots isn't going to make it better.

It's unfortunate two of our best defensive players also happen to be god awful at offense. (Baynes and Smart). We just need some offensive production. Badly. Baynes has actually regressed to the point where his offensive numbers are as bad as they've been since his rookie year.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: kozlodoev on February 12, 2018, 12:11:57 PM
On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.
Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence that this team fared a lot better when Baynes was fresh (general understanding seems to be he has stamina issues, hence why his role in the NBA has been limited so far). He seems clearly worn down to me.

He was more important on the defensive end (clearing space for rebounds and challenging shots), but there have been some troubling trends on the offense as well. I don't understand why they decided to have him drift to the corner for threes. One, he's nearly automatic on short jumpers, and two, if he's starting to lose his legs having him jack longer jump shots isn't going to make it better.

It's unfortunate two of our best defensive players also happen to be god awful at offense. (Baynes and Smart). We just need some offensive production. Badly. Baynes has actually regressed to the point where his offensive numbers are as bad as they've been since his rookie year.
I don't think Baynes is awful. He's certainly limited, but there are places where you can put him that he can be useful (not trying to finish at the rim or shoot the three, though). He's still shooting ~.450 from 10 feet out to the three-point line, which is not too shabby.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: JHTruth on February 12, 2018, 12:23:05 PM
On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.
Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence that this team fared a lot better when Baynes was fresh (general understanding seems to be he has stamina issues, hence why his role in the NBA has been limited so far). He seems clearly worn down to me.

He was more important on the defensive end (clearing space for rebounds and challenging shots), but there have been some troubling trends on the offense as well. I don't understand why they decided to have him drift to the corner for threes. One, he's nearly automatic on short jumpers, and two, if he's starting to lose his legs having him jack longer jump shots isn't going to make it better.

It's unfortunate two of our best defensive players also happen to be god awful at offense. (Baynes and Smart). We just need some offensive production. Badly. Baynes has actually regressed to the point where his offensive numbers are as bad as they've been since his rookie year.
I don't think Baynes is awful. He's certainly limited, but there are places where you can put him that he can be useful (not trying to finish at the rim or shoot the three, though). He's still shooting ~.450 from 10 feet out to the three-point line, which is not too shabby.

He has an OBPM of -4.6. The much maligned Smart is "only" at -2.2 (although the lowest of his career). Baynes is roughly as bad on offense as IT was on defense last year. He's actually slightly worse than 2010-2011 Perk (the year he was traded). Perk was actually a much offensive player during the Finals runs and I remember him as like "please only shoot in absolute desperation".

Baynes is horrible at O..
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: kozlodoev on February 12, 2018, 12:30:30 PM
I don't know what "OBPM" is nor why I should care about it.

The difference between Smart and Baynes is that Smart is awful no matter what you do with him, and Baynes can be serviceable if you put him in the right spots (which our team has staunchly refused to do in recent times).
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Ed Hollison on February 12, 2018, 12:47:21 PM
I didn't see the game against the Cavs, but I can tell you that the teams that defend the Celtics well are the ones that mess up the hand offs and other actions at the top of the key in the first few seconds of the shot clock. Toronto did this masterfully by pressuring Horford and screwing up the timing of those handoffs. I think the Pacers also did it, for instance by sticking their hand in when a Celtic was making the handoff. Oladipo got at least a couple steals off of those, but they had many more deflections that ruined the timing.

This is a timing and movement-based offense that's reliant on those handoffs. It's like a timing-based passing offense in football that comes up against a good press man-to-man defense that's able to jam the receivers at the line of scrimmage.

So far this team has not been able to adjust. I'm not sure if that's coaching, or personnel, or what. I can tell you that sometimes they need to fake the handoff and go straight to the rim, which will ease the pressure by teaching defenses that they can't cheat. Right now, if a defense disrupts those early actions, basically the players on the court don't know what to do and they just kind of fumble around.

Lastly... I think Smart's absence has really hurt the ball movement. He's a popular target in terms of his shooting, but he's an excellent passer and quarterbacked the offense when Irving was off the floor. Rozier has been great, but Smart has a very positive impact on getting the offense into the right flow (in my opinion).
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Jamilmac99 on February 12, 2018, 04:48:13 PM
We suck. That is all.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Smitty77 on February 12, 2018, 04:54:48 PM
On a side note, do you think the regression of Baynes has played a major role in our struggles?  Maybe I'm wrong but I remember him being competent as a finisher around the rim early in the season.  At this point he has become an absolute negative.  Not a good problem to have when he was such a key to us being the #1 defense.
Yes, I don't think it's a coincidence that this team fared a lot better when Baynes was fresh (general understanding seems to be he has stamina issues, hence why his role in the NBA has been limited so far). He seems clearly worn down to me.

He was more important on the defensive end (clearing space for rebounds and challenging shots), but there have been some troubling trends on the offense as well. I don't understand why they decided to have him drift to the corner for threes. One, he's nearly automatic on short jumpers, and two, if he's starting to lose his legs having him jack longer jump shots isn't going to make it better.

It's unfortunate two of our best defensive players also happen to be god awful at offense. (Baynes and Smart). We just need some offensive production. Badly. Baynes has actually regressed to the point where his offensive numbers are as bad as they've been since his rookie year.
I don't think Baynes is awful. He's certainly limited, but there are places where you can put him that he can be useful (not trying to finish at the rim or shoot the three, though). He's still shooting ~.450 from 10 feet out to the three-point line, which is not too shabby.

He has an OBPM of -4.6. The much maligned Smart is "only" at -2.2 (although the lowest of his career). Baynes is roughly as bad on offense as IT was on defense last year. He's actually slightly worse than 2010-2011 Perk (the year he was traded). Perk was actually a much offensive player during the Finals runs and I remember him as like "please only shoot in absolute desperation".

Baynes is horrible at O..

Monroe will start after the All-Star break.

Smitty77
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: nickagneta on February 12, 2018, 05:13:05 PM
For me, I just don't understand Stevens sitting Brown and/or Tatum sitting in the corner while Kyrie, Horford and Morris/Baynes run three man weaves or top of the key pick n rolls. That's like 65+% of this teams set offense. It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch. And when the second team tries these sets its even worse.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: footey on February 12, 2018, 05:35:10 PM
So these are some of the things, if I were coach, I would want to address :

1. Watch pre-season video, team. Look at the ball movement.  Look at the trust you showed in each other.  Stop organizing our entire offense around whether or not Kyrie and Al can work the pick and role play.  Every team in the NBA is aware of this.  You have gone from a ball movement team to a stand around and watch team. It is killing you. And is god awful to watch.  But you should know, as most of you are standing around and watching.

2. Jaylen, you are so gifted athletically. And you have improved your ball handling in traffic.  Stop all this "3 or pass" nonsense. Yes, you are a decent 3 point shooter. But the dimension you add to this team's offense is so great when you attack and either finish or dish off. No one else other than Kyrie has this ability.

3. Jaylen, quit over thinking yourself at the free throw line.  Connect to your inner confidence, the same confidence you are able to connect to at the 3 point line.  Get out of your freakin' head, brother.

4. Jayson, okay, you hit the rookie wall. It sucks. No break through it.  You need to be more creative with getting free to take your 3 point shots.  Learn to use picks more to get freed up.  And stop settling for long 2 point jumpers.  Learn to keep attacking to the hoop and finishing better, or dishing off to open team mate.

5.  Jayson and Terri, stop looking just to give the ball to Kyrie and Al.  Most of the time, the offense is over-playing them. Swing the dang ball to Jaylen's side. And when they do, Jaylen, re-read point 2 above.

6.  Kyrie, love the trade, and I know how you want to be a great point guard, and in certain respects you are.  But it is on you to fix the problems facing this offense--the lack of ball movement, the over-dependence on your isolation.  We did not trade for you to turn this Celtic team into last year's Cavs' team. How ironic that the current Cavs roster plays more like the Celtic team we fell in love with the last two years, and the first 2 months this year, than what we currently are.

7. Brad Stevens, you have to right this ship. All you seem to say lately is we need to pick up the pace, get into our sets earlier. While I agree that our pace stinks, just telling these guys to play faster doesn't seem to solve anything.    Who cares if the set up a Kyrie isolation with Al 5 seconds earlier?  The result still seems the same.

8.  Kyrie and Terry, save your heroics for the end of the shot clock. Start every set with ball movement.  If we haven't created a shot with 4 seconds to go, it should be in your hands.

9. Al Horford, I think we are getting the most out of you that we can expect.  I think you need to trust the young pups a little more (Jaylen and Jason), but otherwise I have no complaints. Well, take care of the ball a little better. That's it. You are the one guy who understands how the offense is supposed to function.   
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Big333223 on February 12, 2018, 05:39:11 PM
Last year's Celtic team was 8th in offense in the league. Did that team have more offensive talent than this one? Beside a transcendent season from IT, I don't think so. I think Brad Stevens doesn't just teach offensive sets, he teaches a way to play offense and this team is almost all brand new, not just integrating new players into a system, but initiating a new system for most of these guys. It takes time, which is something everyone knew in the offseason but seems to have forgotten now that we're here.

I expect, with a season under their belt within this system and with these teammates together, next season would be a lot smoother even before you figure the addition of Hayward and the growth of Tatum and Brown into the mix.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: JHTruth on February 12, 2018, 05:44:51 PM
It really is sobering to realize just how horrible the Celtics have become on offense. Ranked 29th since Jan 1. It's like we were just sort of treading water through the first half, then just sort of started drowning and taking our hopes with it..
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: footey on February 12, 2018, 05:48:30 PM
Last year's Celtic team was 8th in offense in the league. Did that team have more offensive talent than this one? Beside a transcendent season from IT, I don't think so. I think Brad Stevens doesn't just teach offensive sets, he teaches a way to play offense and this team is almost all brand new, not just integrating new players into a system, but initiating a new system for most of these guys. It takes time, which is something everyone knew in the offseason but seems to have forgotten now that we're here.

I expect, with a season under their belt within this system and with these teammates together, next season would be a lot smoother even before you figure the addition of Hayward and the growth of Tatum and Brown into the mix.

I would share your hope if we weren't trending toward playing worse, not improvement.  Who have we added since beginning of season besides Monroe?  Our ball movement was much better early on. 
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: mctyson on February 12, 2018, 06:12:45 PM
For me, I just don't understand Stevens sitting Brown and/or Tatum sitting in the corner while Kyrie, Horford and Morris/Baynes run three man weaves or top of the key pick n rolls. That's like 65+% of this teams set offense. It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch. And when the second team tries these sets its even worse.

Maybe he realizes...just MAYBE...that it is a pre-All Star break regular season game and that the biggest thing this team needs is to get to the playoffs in one piece, with fresh legs.

I just want Tatum full speed in May.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: nickagneta on February 12, 2018, 06:17:32 PM
For me, I just don't understand Stevens sitting Brown and/or Tatum sitting in the corner while Kyrie, Horford and Morris/Baynes run three man weaves or top of the key pick n rolls. That's like 65+% of this teams set offense. It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch. And when the second team tries these sets its even worse.

Maybe he realizes...just MAYBE...that it is a pre-All Star break regular season game and that the biggest thing this team needs is to get to the playoffs in one piece, with fresh legs.

I just want Tatum full speed in May.
This offensive set has been being used since just before the new year. It is not just an observation from yesterday.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Snakehead on February 12, 2018, 06:22:40 PM
It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch.

I think you are really reaching here.  I agree the offense can be predictible but these guys aren't being held back.  Tatum seems to be scared to shoot open 3's in recent games and Brown can be great or quiet at times, like he has all year.  Steven is not holding these guys back like some of you guys thing he is.  They just can't reliably do anything off the dribble, they almost never make a play for anyone else, in Tatum's case are gun shy at times (or maybe the finger is still hurt), and they don't have go to moves to score on quality defenders.  Instead of thinking Stevens is putting them in the corner, maybe realize that's their games right now. 


That's all fine for players in their first couple years too.  But to think it's Stevens holding them back in the most free form sport there is, when they could clearly do more if they were able, is really far off base.  Jaylen and Tatum get to come off screens (especially with the bench) and they don't really do anything with it except pull up for jumpers on occasion.  It's the same with Rozier as well.  He has moments but he has no real reliable moves and hardly ever makes plays for anyone.  That's just where these three players are.

I know you guys love to hate Smart but he man is a much better play maker and passer (WAY better) than any of those guys and he is missed for that alone.  And Tatum, flawless golden child that he is to many of you guys, has not been good in recent games at all and has gone from a reluctant shooter of threes to almost never shooting one.  It kills the offense to not have willing knock down shooters.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on February 12, 2018, 06:24:31 PM
this team used to play smart ball. when outside shots were not falling we went to hoop. when brad stressed PITP we got them. now? we live and die by 3's. pure stupid basketball and why can't brad correct it? he did earlier in year. no excuse.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: GreenEnvy on February 12, 2018, 06:28:52 PM
We suck right now. Rather it happen now and the team and Brad see whatís wrong and correct it by the playoffs.

Sucks that we are dropping games and hopefully we donít fall far in the standings but his is growing pains. We are missing an impact player (Smart) and have Monroe that needs to be worked in.

We arenít firing on all cylinders and we may need the freak to reset. I thought the London trip would do that but it did just the opposite. Hopefully we get it together soon and take back 1st place.

No need to overreact just yet.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: nickagneta on February 12, 2018, 07:02:54 PM
It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch.

I think you are really reaching here.  I agree the offense can be predictible but these guys aren't being held back.  Tatum seems to be scared to shoot open 3's in recent games and Brown can be great or quiet at times, like he has all year.  Steven is not holding these guys back like some of you guys thing he is.  They just can't reliably do anything off the dribble, they almost never make a play for anyone else, in Tatum's case are gun shy at times (or maybe the finger is still hurt), and they don't have go to moves to score on quality defenders.  Instead of thinking Stevens is putting them in the corner, maybe realize that's their games right now. 


That's all fine for players in their first couple years too.  But to think it's Stevens holding them back in the most free form sport there is, when they could clearly do more if they were able, is really far off base.  Jaylen and Tatum get to come off screens (especially with the bench) and they don't really do anything with it except pull up for jumpers on occasion.  It's the same with Rozier as well.  He has moments but he has no real reliable moves and hardly ever makes plays for anyone.  That's just where these three players are.

I know you guys love to hate Smart but he man is a much better play maker and passer (WAY better) than any of those guys and he is missed for that alone.  And Tatum, flawless golden child that he is to many of you guys, has not been good in recent games at all and has gone from a reluctant shooter of threes to almost never shooting one.  It kills the offense to not have willing knock down shooters.
Not saying Stevens is holding them back. What I am saying is he has a simplified offense that is causing one to two players sitting in corners and not being involved because they have to stay the to wait for a kickout 3. As I said, he is doing it to second team members as well. And when Rozier and Kyrie are on the court together, he's done it to Kyrie a lot.

I am not accusing Stevens of holding back Brown and Tatum. I am criticizing a system that usually has only 2-3 players involved in most sets.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Celtics4ever on February 12, 2018, 07:30:36 PM
I think we need to be more aggressive and attack the rim to balance out our spreading the floor.   When you don't do one all the team has to do is defend the one you're doing.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on February 12, 2018, 07:48:28 PM
Watching the Cs and other teams, I notice three things:
1. The Cs rarely seem free in their offense. Everything is systematic. This wears teams down throughout games and hopefully will be effective in the playoffs, but Celtic 35 point quarters seem more rare than other teams.
2. The Cs have a very simple offense with relatively few variations, especially compared to last year. I think this was designed to help all of the new guys and young players adjust, but as teams get the rhythm of their offense, they aren't as effective.
3. Tatum and Brown are both running a lot more pick-and-rolls over the last few weeks. This should help their long-term development, but their reads are not very advanced and the offense can be inconsistent.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Somebody on February 12, 2018, 07:59:33 PM
Are we discussing how awful it is?
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: PhoSita on February 12, 2018, 08:23:40 PM
Watching the Cs and other teams, I notice three things:
1. The Cs rarely seem free in their offense. Everything is systematic. This wears teams down throughout games and hopefully will be effective in the playoffs, but Celtic 35 point quarters seem more rare than other teams.

This sounds right.

I'm not sure how frequent the Celts would have 35 point quarters if the offense was more free flowing.  Probably would be limited to night when Kyrie gets super hot.

I much, much, much preferring watching a system offense to an offense that amounts to "let the main guy on the floor, whoever that is, make stuff happen."  That's a big part of what I have always found unappealing about the Cavs.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: tstorey_97 on February 12, 2018, 09:06:36 PM
I think they are playing at the level expected for their talent.

Cav's have big offense, big veteran talent, good bench. Celtics don't have an answer for that...yet.

Raptors have offense, solid bench and speed...Celtics have no answer for that unless they play lights out defense...which they will in the playoffs.

Look at the starters:

Baynes isn't a "starting center".
Horford is an all star that isn't a starting center either.
Brown and Tatum are getting these minutes because that is what Ainge wants....
Irving has few options on the court with him...ever.

This team looks like #3 in the east waiting for their best winger to get back on the court. I really miss winning every dang night...that was a blast.

BTW...Would Smart have had any luck with Oladipo? My TV still has burn marks from his game the other night.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: KGBirdBias on February 12, 2018, 10:21:15 PM
For me, I just don't understand Stevens sitting Brown and/or Tatum sitting in the corner while Kyrie, Horford and Morris/Baynes run three man weaves or top of the key pick n rolls. That's like 65+% of this teams set offense. It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch. And when the second team tries these sets its even worse.

I'm getting carpal tunnel from writing this same thing ALL SEASON. It drives me absolutely nuts. No cutters on the weak side...nothing, just stand and watch the wrong 3 guys play PnR offense.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on February 12, 2018, 10:43:39 PM
It seems to me that Stevens is bent on going with the trendy, Golden State-style offense despite not having the ideal personnel for it.

Golden State has the following 3pt specialists:

Thompson: 45.4% (7 attempts per game)
Durant: 41.9% (6 apg)
Curry: 41.7% (10 apg)

For Boston, on the other hand, Horford and Tatum are shooting 43.4% and 43.1%, respectivelyóreally good, but on only 3.3 and 3 attempts per game.

And the Celtics who take the most 3-pointers per game aren't nearly as good, generally speaking:

Irving: 6.7 attempts per game, 39.1%
Brown: 4.6, 37.7%
Smart: 4.6, 29.9%
Rozier: 4.5, 37.3%
Morris: 3.9, 35.8%

Smart's percentage is the only truly bad one in the bunch, but Morris and Rozier have been inconsistent, and Brown is good only at the corner 3s, really. So Boston's best 3pt shooters (Tatum and Horford) are taking the fewest among the regulars. Seems like those two should be taking more, and the others taking fewer.

Hayward's return will help in many ways, including the 3pt attack, but it seems to me that Boston doesn't really have the big guns GS hasówhich begs the questions: Why shoot so many 3s? Or at least, why is anyone not named Tatum, Horford, and maybe Kyrie taking so many 3s? Why aren't the Celtics attacking the paint more?

Of course, the Cs have never been much of a paint-attacking team during Stevens' tenure (other than IT and Kyrie), and they really never excelled at it during the Rivers era, either. There have been TONS of times in the last decade-plus when, while watching a Cs game, I thought, "Why don't you guys take it to the rim more?!?" You get more free throws, which are easier points; you get in the bonus quicker, which leads to more free throws; and you get the other team's key players in foul trouble more often and sooner.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Boston's offense needs to be more dynamic, instead of so often just settling for 3s (contested or not).
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: CelticsJG on February 13, 2018, 12:23:57 AM
Outside of last year, we never had a good offensive system under Brad Stevens
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: GreenEnvy on February 13, 2018, 04:30:15 AM
Last years team couldnít defend to save their lives, but they sure were fun to watch with the ball.

This team is so painful to watch offensively sometimes. Even when they have the ball movement and find he right shot, they brick it. Very frustrating and they owe all their success to their defense.


Im glad we are doing this without Smart so people can stop blaming him exclusively. Itís a team problem.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: TA9 on February 13, 2018, 06:56:53 AM
Not much to discuss is there?

Our offense is basically Kyrie Irving. Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum are too inconsistent and it kind of annoys me that Horford is so passive at times on the offensive end. Can't wait until Hayward is back as we really need his production on the offensive end of the court.

Unbelievable that Ainge didn't try to bring some offensive firepower to this team as players like Bellinelli were available for the minimum.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: More Banners on February 13, 2018, 07:09:56 AM
Last years team couldnít defend to save their lives, but they sure were fun to watch with the ball.

This team is so painful to watch offensively sometimes. Even when they have the ball movement and find he right shot, they brick it. Very frustrating and they owe all their success to their defense.


Im glad we are doing this without Smart so people can stop blaming him exclusively. Itís a team problem.

Bricking the open 3's after passing and working the defense is frustrating as heck.

I guess we just need to get better at hitting wide open shots. Maybe they could practice those.

Then again, we're playing our third string quite a lot, and this year was a wash the minute Hayward went down, so I'm just going to enjoy the wizardry of Irving, steadiness of Horford, and growth of Brown, Tatum, and Rozier.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on February 13, 2018, 09:33:50 AM
For me, I just don't understand Stevens sitting Brown and/or Tatum sitting in the corner while Kyrie, Horford and Morris/Baynes run three man weaves or top of the key pick n rolls. That's like 65+% of this teams set offense. It simple, its ineffective and it leaves two young scorers frozen out of the offense for long periods of times. Its getting just awful to watch. And when the second team tries these sets its even worse.

I'm getting carpal tunnel from writing this same thing ALL SEASON. It drives me absolutely nuts. No cutters on the weak side...nothing, just stand and watch the wrong 3 guys play PnR offense.

yeah i miss those backdoor cuts by avery bradley
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: cltc5 on February 13, 2018, 09:47:53 AM
So these are some of the things, if I were coach, I would want to address :

1. Watch pre-season video, team. Look at the ball movement.  Look at the trust you showed in each other.  Stop organizing our entire offense around whether or not Kyrie and Al can work the pick and role play.  Every team in the NBA is aware of this.  You have gone from a ball movement team to a stand around and watch team. It is killing you. And is god awful to watch.  But you should know, as most of you are standing around and watching.

2. Jaylen, you are so gifted athletically. And you have improved your ball handling in traffic.  Stop all this "3 or pass" nonsense. Yes, you are a decent 3 point shooter. But the dimension you add to this team's offense is so great when you attack and either finish or dish off. No one else other than Kyrie has this ability.

3. Jaylen, quit over thinking yourself at the free throw line.  Connect to your inner confidence, the same confidence you are able to connect to at the 3 point line.  Get out of your freakin' head, brother.

4. Jayson, okay, you hit the rookie wall. It sucks. No break through it.  You need to be more creative with getting free to take your 3 point shots.  Learn to use picks more to get freed up.  And stop settling for long 2 point jumpers.  Learn to keep attacking to the hoop and finishing better, or dishing off to open team mate.

5.  Jayson and Terri, stop looking just to give the ball to Kyrie and Al.  Most of the time, the offense is over-playing them. Swing the dang ball to Jaylen's side. And when they do, Jaylen, re-read point 2 above.

6.  Kyrie, love the trade, and I know how you want to be a great point guard, and in certain respects you are.  But it is on you to fix the problems facing this offense--the lack of ball movement, the over-dependence on your isolation.  We did not trade for you to turn this Celtic team into last year's Cavs' team. How ironic that the current Cavs roster plays more like the Celtic team we fell in love with the last two years, and the first 2 months this year, than what we currently are.

7. Brad Stevens, you have to right this ship. All you seem to say lately is we need to pick up the pace, get into our sets earlier. While I agree that our pace stinks, just telling these guys to play faster doesn't seem to solve anything.    Who cares if the set up a Kyrie isolation with Al 5 seconds earlier?  The result still seems the same.

8.  Kyrie and Terry, save your heroics for the end of the shot clock. Start every set with ball movement.  If we haven't created a shot with 4 seconds to go, it should be in your hands.

9. Al Horford, I think we are getting the most out of you that we can expect.  I think you need to trust the young pups a little more (Jaylen and Jason), but otherwise I have no complaints. Well, take care of the ball a little better. That's it. You are the one guy who understands how the offense is supposed to function.

Well said. Most of this is coaching. Let's get it together Brad!
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Big333223 on February 13, 2018, 10:27:05 AM
Last year's Celtic team was 8th in offense in the league. Did that team have more offensive talent than this one? Beside a transcendent season from IT, I don't think so. I think Brad Stevens doesn't just teach offensive sets, he teaches a way to play offense and this team is almost all brand new, not just integrating new players into a system, but initiating a new system for most of these guys. It takes time, which is something everyone knew in the offseason but seems to have forgotten now that we're here.

I expect, with a season under their belt within this system and with these teammates together, next season would be a lot smoother even before you figure the addition of Hayward and the growth of Tatum and Brown into the mix.

I would share your hope if we weren't trending toward playing worse, not improvement.  Who have we added since beginning of season besides Monroe?  Our ball movement was much better early on.

I get what you're saying but I don't think it works that way. There isn't going to be a single, consistent trend line that goes in the same direction. There are ups and downs. The beginning of the season, when everyone was excited about the new year and the potential of a new team and then the streak, everyone was 100% invested and giving it their all and that covered for some of the problems of having a new team and playing young guys big minutes.

Now it's February. The excitement of the start of the season is over and the end of the tunnel is still really far off. Everybody knows the system but it still isn't second nature to anyone (except maybe Horford). I think something happens when it reaches that point where players are no longer thinking the system, it's just ingrained into how they play basketball and then they can start getting creative with it and things start flowing.

Right now there is no flow. I predict that will come in time if the Celtics can work through this rough patch. These are the times that bond a team. We'll have to see how they react.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Evantime34 on February 13, 2018, 10:56:16 AM
My read on our offense is that the ball movement is worse than we have ever seen under Brad Stevens.

When the C's run through sets they usually go through the first option then the play devolves into a post up or an iso. We don't run plays all the way through and don't execute.

I blame Morris for a lot of the ball movement issues and I blame the youth for the lack of execution.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Spicoli on February 13, 2018, 11:16:14 AM
I hate this dribble hand-off offense. This is one of the most stale, predictable offenses in the NBA. Kyrie is the best dribble penetrator in the league. Stop bringing a pick to him at the top of the key which is so easy to trap. Let him isolate his man up top, collapse the defense and then dish. I mean it's not really rocket science to me. Stevens has failed to draw up plays that collapse the defense.

Aaron Baynes is a terrible offensive player, and so is Ojeleye. They should not be playing the minutes that they are playing. Stevens rotations are terrible.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: JHTruth on February 13, 2018, 11:28:22 AM
I hate this dribble hand-off offense. This is one of the most stale, predictable offenses in the NBA. Kyrie is the best dribble penetrator in the league. Stop bringing a pick to him at the top of the key which is so easy to trap. Let him isolate his man up top, collapse the defense and then dish. I mean it's not really rocket science to me. Stevens has failed to draw up plays that collapse the defense.

Aaron Baynes is a terrible offensive player, and so is Ojeleye. They should not be playing the minutes that they are playing. Stevens rotations are terrible.

My guess is if you asked CBS to explain his absurd playing time for Baynes and Ojeleye he would say they are important to the defense which may be the case in Baynes's case but certainly not Ojeleye's. And Baynes D is probably overstated. But their horrific O is simply not a luxury we can afford any longer. Both should be sat barring situational defense.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: PhoSita on February 13, 2018, 11:40:34 AM
I hate this dribble hand-off offense. This is one of the most stale, predictable offenses in the NBA. Kyrie is the best dribble penetrator in the league. Stop bringing a pick to him at the top of the key which is so easy to trap. Let him isolate his man up top, collapse the defense and then dish. I mean it's not really rocket science to me. Stevens has failed to draw up plays that collapse the defense.

Aaron Baynes is a terrible offensive player, and so is Ojeleye. They should not be playing the minutes that they are playing. Stevens rotations are terrible.

This roster with a standard spread pick-and-roll offensive playbook would be bottom 5 in offense. 

That they were above average much of the year and are now a few ticks below the mid-point of the league is a testament to Brad.

It's not a perfect offense, to be sure.  It can get predictable.  But having Kyrie run a million pick and rolls and trying to drive and kick like Houston would not work with this roster.


With all that, Brad is not known as an offensive coach, apart from his excellence at drawing up after-timeout plays.  His bread and butter is the defensive end, and the team is #1 in the league on that side of things.  That's absolutely remarkable when you consider Kyrie's defensive reputation prior to this season and the youth of the roster overall.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: JHTruth on February 13, 2018, 12:00:22 PM
I hate this dribble hand-off offense. This is one of the most stale, predictable offenses in the NBA. Kyrie is the best dribble penetrator in the league. Stop bringing a pick to him at the top of the key which is so easy to trap. Let him isolate his man up top, collapse the defense and then dish. I mean it's not really rocket science to me. Stevens has failed to draw up plays that collapse the defense.

Aaron Baynes is a terrible offensive player, and so is Ojeleye. They should not be playing the minutes that they are playing. Stevens rotations are terrible.

This roster with a standard spread pick-and-roll offensive playbook would be bottom 5 in offense. 

That they were above average much of the year and are now a few ticks below the mid-point of the league is a testament to Brad.

It's not a perfect offense, to be sure.  It can get predictable.  But having Kyrie run a million pick and rolls and trying to drive and kick like Houston would not work with this roster.


With all that, Brad is not known as an offensive coach, apart from his excellence at drawing up after-timeout plays.  His bread and butter is the defensive end, and the team is #1 in the league on that side of things.  That's absolutely remarkable when you consider Kyrie's defensive reputation prior to this season and the youth of the roster overall.

The Celtics are a bottom 5 offense since Jan 1. 29 to be exact. They were about 12 in 2017 and now have collapsed to 21. They are in serious trouble on O, let's not apologize or make excuses..
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: nickagneta on February 13, 2018, 12:03:25 PM
I hate this dribble hand-off offense. This is one of the most stale, predictable offenses in the NBA. Kyrie is the best dribble penetrator in the league. Stop bringing a pick to him at the top of the key which is so easy to trap. Let him isolate his man up top, collapse the defense and then dish. I mean it's not really rocket science to me. Stevens has failed to draw up plays that collapse the defense.

Aaron Baynes is a terrible offensive player, and so is Ojeleye. They should not be playing the minutes that they are playing. Stevens rotations are terrible.

My guess is if you asked CBS to explain his absurd playing time for Baynes and Ojeleye he would say they are important to the defense which may be the case in Baynes's case but certainly not Ojeleye's. And Baynes D is probably overstated. But their horrific O is simply not a luxury we can afford any longer. Both should be sat barring situational defense.
Here's the problem...who do you play if you bench Baynes or Ojeleye or cut their minutes by a lot? Theis getting big minutes? Nader? Yabusele? Monroe who looks lost on both ends of the floor right now? Play everyone else a bunch more minutes?
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: triboy16f on February 13, 2018, 12:23:25 PM
Three issues with this offense

1. Kyrie and Horford pnr game is getting old. Teams have a good grasp now as to how to defend this

2. Movement/Picks set - very poor.  Guys are standing around instead of moving around causing the other team to work/open lanes.  Hardly anyone also cuts to the basket and when they do, they are not rewarded.

3. In Love with 3 point shooting.  When the team is not hitting the shot...they just keep chucking away. Blame CBS ,blame the leaders blame whoever.....  Jaylen Brown should be taking it to the basket 70 percent of the time. Instead is shooting 70 percent of the time.  Kyrie these days thinks he is Curry and shooting way too frequently.  Al Horford the same... Once the Celts can't buy a bucket via 3, this team is likely to lose
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: JHTruth on February 13, 2018, 12:34:26 PM
I hate this dribble hand-off offense. This is one of the most stale, predictable offenses in the NBA. Kyrie is the best dribble penetrator in the league. Stop bringing a pick to him at the top of the key which is so easy to trap. Let him isolate his man up top, collapse the defense and then dish. I mean it's not really rocket science to me. Stevens has failed to draw up plays that collapse the defense.

Aaron Baynes is a terrible offensive player, and so is Ojeleye. They should not be playing the minutes that they are playing. Stevens rotations are terrible.

My guess is if you asked CBS to explain his absurd playing time for Baynes and Ojeleye he would say they are important to the defense which may be the case in Baynes's case but certainly not Ojeleye's. And Baynes D is probably overstated. But their horrific O is simply not a luxury we can afford any longer. Both should be sat barring situational defense.
Here's the problem...who do you play if you bench Baynes or Ojeleye or cut their minutes by a lot? Theis getting big minutes? Nader? Yabusele? Monroe who looks lost on both ends of the floor right now? Play everyone else a bunch more minutes?

Theis and Monroe should be eating up most of Baynes minutes right now. If Monroe needs acclimation, get working. Acclimate him. Guy is a quality veteran who was just tearing it up for Phoenix. Do your freaking job coaching staff. Design some plays to get him involved.

Semi simply doesnt need to play. Tighten up the rotation if necessary. Play nine guys.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: CELTICSofBOSTON on February 13, 2018, 12:44:35 PM
I think we should start Theis.  Have Monroe come in off the bench and just not play Baynes at all.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: nickagneta on February 13, 2018, 12:50:02 PM
I hate this dribble hand-off offense. This is one of the most stale, predictable offenses in the NBA. Kyrie is the best dribble penetrator in the league. Stop bringing a pick to him at the top of the key which is so easy to trap. Let him isolate his man up top, collapse the defense and then dish. I mean it's not really rocket science to me. Stevens has failed to draw up plays that collapse the defense.

Aaron Baynes is a terrible offensive player, and so is Ojeleye. They should not be playing the minutes that they are playing. Stevens rotations are terrible.

My guess is if you asked CBS to explain his absurd playing time for Baynes and Ojeleye he would say they are important to the defense which may be the case in Baynes's case but certainly not Ojeleye's. And Baynes D is probably overstated. But their horrific O is simply not a luxury we can afford any longer. Both should be sat barring situational defense.
Here's the problem...who do you play if you bench Baynes or Ojeleye or cut their minutes by a lot? Theis getting big minutes? Nader? Yabusele? Monroe who looks lost on both ends of the floor right now? Play everyone else a bunch more minutes?

Theis and Monroe should be eating up most of Baynes minutes right now. If Monroe needs acclimation, get working. Acclimate him. Guy is a quality veteran who was just tearing it up for Phoenix. Do your freaking job coaching staff. Design some plays to get him involved.

Semi simply doesnt need to play. Tighten up the rotation if necessary. Play nine guys.
Tightening up the rotation means a bunch more minutes for other guys. Stevens manages his top 7-8 players minutes very closely. Always has. He likes to keep players lower than 32 MPG and use more players. The use of players like Ojeleye, Baynes, Yabusele, Nader is caused by Danny Ainge giving Stevens so many rookies on the roster, not Stevens because he plays them.

As for Monroe, you can acclimate new players only so fast. Monroe looked clueless versus the Cavs. He'll eventually get bunches of minutes, but when he shows he can do it well.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: kozlodoev on February 13, 2018, 12:59:17 PM
Tightening up the rotation means a bunch more minutes for other guys. Stevens manages his top 7-8 players minutes very closely. Always has. He likes to keep players lower than 32 MPG and use more players. The use of players like Ojeleye, Baynes, Yabusele, Nader is caused by Danny Ainge giving Stevens so many rookies on the roster, not Stevens because he plays them.

As for Monroe, you can acclimate new players only so fast. Monroe looked clueless versus the Cavs. He'll eventually get bunches of minutes, but when he shows he can do it well.
I always thought it was the other way around. Either way, you can keep minutes under 32 for core guys AND maintain a 9-man rotation. Even with Baynes being limited to ~20 mpg, you have at least one guy off the bench right now that can handle 25+. Absolutely no need to ever play Ojeleye, Nader, or Yabusele.

The use of Baynes, btw, is absolutely because he's one of your top 9 guys.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Spicoli on February 13, 2018, 12:59:39 PM
I hate this dribble hand-off offense. This is one of the most stale, predictable offenses in the NBA. Kyrie is the best dribble penetrator in the league. Stop bringing a pick to him at the top of the key which is so easy to trap. Let him isolate his man up top, collapse the defense and then dish. I mean it's not really rocket science to me. Stevens has failed to draw up plays that collapse the defense.

Aaron Baynes is a terrible offensive player, and so is Ojeleye. They should not be playing the minutes that they are playing. Stevens rotations are terrible.

This roster with a standard spread pick-and-roll offensive playbook would be bottom 5 in offense. 

That they were above average much of the year and are now a few ticks below the mid-point of the league is a testament to Brad.

It's not a perfect offense, to be sure.  It can get predictable.  But having Kyrie run a million pick and rolls and trying to drive and kick like Houston would not work with this roster.


With all that, Brad is not known as an offensive coach, apart from his excellence at drawing up after-timeout plays.  His bread and butter is the defensive end, and the team is #1 in the league on that side of things.  That's absolutely remarkable when you consider Kyrie's defensive reputation prior to this season and the youth of the roster overall.

If Alvin Gentry gets fired, i would love to bring him on board as an offensive coordinator. Stevens really needs help on that side of the ball.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Spicoli on February 13, 2018, 01:03:54 PM
I hate this dribble hand-off offense. This is one of the most stale, predictable offenses in the NBA. Kyrie is the best dribble penetrator in the league. Stop bringing a pick to him at the top of the key which is so easy to trap. Let him isolate his man up top, collapse the defense and then dish. I mean it's not really rocket science to me. Stevens has failed to draw up plays that collapse the defense.

Aaron Baynes is a terrible offensive player, and so is Ojeleye. They should not be playing the minutes that they are playing. Stevens rotations are terrible.

My guess is if you asked CBS to explain his absurd playing time for Baynes and Ojeleye he would say they are important to the defense which may be the case in Baynes's case but certainly not Ojeleye's. And Baynes D is probably overstated. But their horrific O is simply not a luxury we can afford any longer. Both should be sat barring situational defense.
Here's the problem...who do you play if you bench Baynes or Ojeleye or cut their minutes by a lot? Theis getting big minutes? Nader? Yabusele? Monroe who looks lost on both ends of the floor right now? Play everyone else a bunch more minutes?

Baynes should play sparingly. Ojeleye should not play at all IMO. He is not an NBA player at this point. You can't be a 3 and D guy and not be able to hit 3's. Monroe should start, and Theis should back him up. Baynes should be the third big. Increase Tatum, Rozier, and Browns minutes by a bit because they're all young and can handle it. Don't play Nader at all.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: JHTruth on February 13, 2018, 01:24:44 PM
I hate this dribble hand-off offense. This is one of the most stale, predictable offenses in the NBA. Kyrie is the best dribble penetrator in the league. Stop bringing a pick to him at the top of the key which is so easy to trap. Let him isolate his man up top, collapse the defense and then dish. I mean it's not really rocket science to me. Stevens has failed to draw up plays that collapse the defense.

Aaron Baynes is a terrible offensive player, and so is Ojeleye. They should not be playing the minutes that they are playing. Stevens rotations are terrible.

My guess is if you asked CBS to explain his absurd playing time for Baynes and Ojeleye he would say they are important to the defense which may be the case in Baynes's case but certainly not Ojeleye's. And Baynes D is probably overstated. But their horrific O is simply not a luxury we can afford any longer. Both should be sat barring situational defense.
Here's the problem...who do you play if you bench Baynes or Ojeleye or cut their minutes by a lot? Theis getting big minutes? Nader? Yabusele? Monroe who looks lost on both ends of the floor right now? Play everyone else a bunch more minutes?

Baynes should play sparingly. Ojeleye should not play at all IMO. He is not an NBA player at this point. You can't be a 3 and D guy and not be able to hit 3's. Monroe should start, and Theis should back him up. Baynes should be the third big. Increase Tatum, Rozier, and Browns minutes by a bit because they're all young and can handle it. Don't play Nader at all.

I'd stay start Kyrie/Brown/Tatum/Horford/Monroe. Bench is Rozier/Morris/Theis with Smart or Baynes being the 9th man depending on matchups. That will imporve familiarity and get us prepped for the playoff rotation.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: celtic -_- pride on February 13, 2018, 01:38:52 PM
We need more dribble penetration by players other than kyrie. Those ball handlers also need enough IQ to know when to finish or dish out to get the best shot. Iím seeing a lot of perimeter passing, isolation for contested jumpers, and a reliance on the pick and roll to create shots.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: PhoSita on February 13, 2018, 02:05:05 PM
We need more dribble penetration by players other than kyrie.

Who is going to do that though?

Without Hayward, I'm not sure there's anybody on this roster I trust to aggressively drive on a set defense without a lot of set-play action to create openings (i.e. the dribble handoffs etc that people apparently hate so much).

Guys like Smart, Rozier, Larkin are not talented enough as ballhandlers and finishers to simply break down a set defense out of a pick and roll set and create good offense that way.

Brown and Tatum have both shown flashes and may get there eventually, but they are young and inexperienced.  It would not be a good idea to ask them to "make something happen" in that way.


Without Hayward, I think the two options offensively for this team are "smoke and mirrors," which is what they mostly do now, and "Give Kyrie the ball and let him make something happen," which is a fine strategy for stretches where the rest of the offense is bogging down, but doesn't seem like a good idea to use as the main strategy. 
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: nickagneta on February 13, 2018, 02:10:45 PM
Tightening up the rotation means a bunch more minutes for other guys. Stevens manages his top 7-8 players minutes very closely. Always has. He likes to keep players lower than 32 MPG and use more players. The use of players like Ojeleye, Baynes, Yabusele, Nader is caused by Danny Ainge giving Stevens so many rookies on the roster, not Stevens because he plays them.

As for Monroe, you can acclimate new players only so fast. Monroe looked clueless versus the Cavs. He'll eventually get bunches of minutes, but when he shows he can do it well.
I always thought it was the other way around. Either way, you can keep minutes under 32 for core guys AND maintain a 9-man rotation. Even with Baynes being limited to ~20 mpg, you have at least one guy off the bench right now that can handle 25+. Absolutely no need to ever play Ojeleye, Nader, or Yabusele.

The use of Baynes, btw, is absolutely because he's one of your top 9 guys.
I agree koz but because people were complaining about Baynes I was speculating tightening the lineup to 8 people which means way more minutes for 3-4 guys.

Personally have no problem with Baynes in the rotation or starting. He is what he is. A very good defender who isn't the best rebounder and will give you an inconsistent 6 points or so a game. I am cool with that.

What I am not cool with is giving Semi, Nader, Yabusele, or Larkin minutes. I just do not understand Stevens love of Semi and to a lesser extent Nader and Larkin.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: nickagneta on February 13, 2018, 02:17:25 PM
We need more dribble penetration by players other than kyrie.

Who is going to do that though?

Without Hayward, I'm not sure there's anybody on this roster I trust to aggressively drive on a set defense without a lot of set-play action to create openings (i.e. the dribble handoffs etc that people apparently hate so much).

Guys like Smart, Rozier, Larkin are not talented enough as ballhandlers and finishers to simply break down a set defense out of a pick and roll set and create good offense that way.

Brown and Tatum have both shown flashes and may get there eventually, but they are young and inexperienced.  It would not be a good idea to ask them to "make something happen" in that way.


Without Hayward, I think the two options offensively for this team are "smoke and mirrors," which is what they mostly do now, and "Give Kyrie the ball and let him make something happen," which is a fine strategy for stretches where the rest of the offense is bogging down, but doesn't seem like a good idea to use as the main strategy.
Yup, Kyrie is the only player that can penetrate a set offense and make a positive play consistently. You're right about Tatum and Brown. They will eventually get there. Right now Tatum has to get to know how to finish better. Brown does too but he is much better at it than Tatum at this point. I am also encouraged by Brown's development of making the good pass off the dribble penetration. He is getting much better at it.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: kozlodoev on February 13, 2018, 02:37:54 PM
Tightening up the rotation means a bunch more minutes for other guys. Stevens manages his top 7-8 players minutes very closely. Always has. He likes to keep players lower than 32 MPG and use more players. The use of players like Ojeleye, Baynes, Yabusele, Nader is caused by Danny Ainge giving Stevens so many rookies on the roster, not Stevens because he plays them.

As for Monroe, you can acclimate new players only so fast. Monroe looked clueless versus the Cavs. He'll eventually get bunches of minutes, but when he shows he can do it well.
I always thought it was the other way around. Either way, you can keep minutes under 32 for core guys AND maintain a 9-man rotation. Even with Baynes being limited to ~20 mpg, you have at least one guy off the bench right now that can handle 25+. Absolutely no need to ever play Ojeleye, Nader, or Yabusele.

The use of Baynes, btw, is absolutely because he's one of your top 9 guys.
I agree koz but because people were complaining about Baynes I was speculating tightening the lineup to 8 people which means way more minutes for 3-4 guys.

Personally have no problem with Baynes in the rotation or starting. He is what he is. A very good defender who isn't the best rebounder and will give you an inconsistent 6 points or so a game. I am cool with that.

What I am not cool with is giving Semi, Nader, Yabusele, or Larkin minutes. I just do not understand Stevens love of Semi and to a lesser extent Nader and Larkin.
Right there with you. Those shouldn't sniff the floor unless it's a blowout. Larkin is the only one who seemed to look like he belongs a little bit, but he's been injured for so long that this point is moot by now.

I guess Semi played last game because LeBron played PF and that was our idea of dealing with the situation... I'd have seen the team opt for Brown or even Tatum in that role before leaning on a rookie that looks like he barely belongs in the league.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: PhoSita on February 13, 2018, 03:03:04 PM
Tightening up the rotation means a bunch more minutes for other guys. Stevens manages his top 7-8 players minutes very closely. Always has. He likes to keep players lower than 32 MPG and use more players. The use of players like Ojeleye, Baynes, Yabusele, Nader is caused by Danny Ainge giving Stevens so many rookies on the roster, not Stevens because he plays them.

As for Monroe, you can acclimate new players only so fast. Monroe looked clueless versus the Cavs. He'll eventually get bunches of minutes, but when he shows he can do it well.
I always thought it was the other way around. Either way, you can keep minutes under 32 for core guys AND maintain a 9-man rotation. Even with Baynes being limited to ~20 mpg, you have at least one guy off the bench right now that can handle 25+. Absolutely no need to ever play Ojeleye, Nader, or Yabusele.

The use of Baynes, btw, is absolutely because he's one of your top 9 guys.
I agree koz but because people were complaining about Baynes I was speculating tightening the lineup to 8 people which means way more minutes for 3-4 guys.

Personally have no problem with Baynes in the rotation or starting. He is what he is. A very good defender who isn't the best rebounder and will give you an inconsistent 6 points or so a game. I am cool with that.

What I am not cool with is giving Semi, Nader, Yabusele, or Larkin minutes. I just do not understand Stevens love of Semi and to a lesser extent Nader and Larkin.


I think Brad likes Semi because he's a cog in the machine.

What I mean by that is, you can plug Semi into the 3/4 spot and his skillset and physical attributes are such that the team doesn't need to change at all the way they run sets.

Compare this to Greg Monroe, who really changes things with his size and offensive skills, for good and for ill.  He needs to be accommodated.

Semi doesn't need to be accommodated.  Now, he doesn't function particularly well, is the problem.  He can switch and he can be in the right spot to take an open three and he can attempt the open three.  He moves the ball and puts himself in the right places.

He just doesn't necessarily produce very well when doing so. 

But he doesn't gum up the works, and there is value in that.  Plus, he shoots nearly 30% from deep and in some games he hits several in a row.  So as long as he's not playing a ton of minutes, that's not so bad.  The problem is when we have games where he plays more than 10-15 minutes.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 13, 2018, 03:32:11 PM
Semi plays because he's committing to defense, while most of the team is not.  Of late, they've made a mockery of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ). 

For example, when George Hill and LBJ were having their way in the PnR during the 3rd quarter of Sunday's game, adjustments needed to be made -- see Semi's substitution and subsequent defensive switches (Osman).

People seem to give Brad too much credit for the amount of control he has over the team in mid- February.  When your defense is struggling, playing guys that commit on that end is a way -- sometimes the only way -- to get buy-in.  It's that simple. 
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: nickagneta on February 13, 2018, 04:33:34 PM
Semi plays because he's committing to defense, while most of the team is not.  Of late, they've made a mockery of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ). 

For example, when George Hill and LBJ were having their way in the PnR during the 3rd quarter of Sunday's game, adjustments needed to be made -- see Semi's substitution and subsequent defensive switches (Osman).

People seem to give Brad too much credit for the amount of control he has over the team in mid- February.  When your defense is struggling, playing guys that commit on that end is a way -- sometimes the only way -- to get buy-in.  It's that simple.
I would love to see the advanced defensive stats for Semi. What do opponents shoot against him? The percentages on how good is he defending the pick and roll. How good do people he is guarding shoot the three? What do people shoot against him when he defends in the paint?

Maybe having those stats would enlighten us on why Stevens uses Semi so much.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: PhoSita on February 13, 2018, 04:51:59 PM
Semi plays because he's committing to defense, while most of the team is not.  Of late, they've made a mockery of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ). 

For example, when George Hill and LBJ were having their way in the PnR during the 3rd quarter of Sunday's game, adjustments needed to be made -- see Semi's substitution and subsequent defensive switches (Osman).

People seem to give Brad too much credit for the amount of control he has over the team in mid- February.  When your defense is struggling, playing guys that commit on that end is a way -- sometimes the only way -- to get buy-in.  It's that simple.
I would love to see the advanced defensive stats for Semi. What do opponents shoot against him? The percentages on how good is he defending the pick and roll. How good do people he is guarding shoot the three? What do people shoot against him when he defends in the paint?

Maybe having those stats would enlighten us on why Stevens uses Semi so much.


Defensive RPM, for what it's worth, has Semi with a -0.56 DRPM, which sounds bad except his ORPM is -3.77.  So that suggests his defensive impact is at least less bad than his offensive impact.  For a bench guy I think close to 0 in DRPM is actually decent.

Basketball-reference's box score plus minus stat has him at 0.0 for DPM, while his OPM is -3.8.  So that suggests the same thing.

I know box score based plus minus stats are inherently questionable; it's not as good as specific matchup shooting stats and the like.  But it's consistent with what I would have assumed to be the case, i.e. he helps on defense but the team is significantly worse on offense when he's out there, for various reasons.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: mmmmm on February 13, 2018, 05:22:57 PM
Semi plays because he's committing to defense, while most of the team is not.  Of late, they've made a mockery of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ). 

For example, when George Hill and LBJ were having their way in the PnR during the 3rd quarter of Sunday's game, adjustments needed to be made -- see Semi's substitution and subsequent defensive switches (Osman).

People seem to give Brad too much credit for the amount of control he has over the team in mid- February.  When your defense is struggling, playing guys that commit on that end is a way -- sometimes the only way -- to get buy-in.  It's that simple.
I would love to see the advanced defensive stats for Semi. What do opponents shoot against him? The percentages on how good is he defending the pick and roll. How good do people he is guarding shoot the three? What do people shoot against him when he defends in the paint?

Maybe having those stats would enlighten us on why Stevens uses Semi so much.
Per NBA.com/stats:

On shots overall, opponents are shooting 44.1% DFG% when contested by Semi.  This is -1.7% below their normal FG%.
That DFG% is about the median among Celtics players, but doesn't tell you much because it doesn't break-down by shot type.
On 3PT shots, for the season, opponents are shooting 35.7% against Semi, which is -0.8% below their normal 3PT%.
On 2PT shots, for the season, opponents are shooting 48.5% against Semi, which is -2.8% below their normal 2PT%.

Unfortunately, in this particular game, Semi's opponents kinda shot the lights out, hitting 4 of 4 on threes and 7 of 9 overall against him.

But the Cavs were basically just plain red-hot and hitting all kinds of shots, including ones that were tightly or even very tightly covered.   

I wouldn't read too much into this one game for either team.

The combination of our really bad shooting (despite generating a _ton_ of open & wide-open looks) and their really hot shooting (despite not really having near as many open & wide open looks) kinda hides the fact that they (Cavs) still may have some serious defensive problems.   And our poor shooting on open & wide-open shots isn't necessarily anything to do with their defensive prowess.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: mmmmm on February 13, 2018, 05:40:33 PM
On our offense:

One thing that really jumps out to me is that we are doing a very poor job on two particular shot types that it is very important to be successful at:   Shots 'at the rim' (i.e., within 3ft of the hoop) and 'wide open threes'.  Wide-open shots are shots with no defender within 6 feet.

Those are normally the two most efficient shot types and you want to get as many of each as you can and convert them when you can.

We do a poor job of getting to the rim.  We are are ranked 25th in share of our shots that are within 3 ft of the rim.   Further, we do a terrible job of finishing those shots, ranking 26th in FG% on shots within 3ft.

We actually do a great job at generating "wide open threes".  We have generated the 4th most 'wide open' 3PT attempts in the NBA.

Unfortunately, we pretty much suck at hitting wide open threes.   We are ranked 27th in 3PT% on wide-open threes, hitting them at just a 36.7% clip.

League median on wide-open threes is about 40%.   So that is a pretty significant under-performance and, ultimately, a lot of wasted possessions.

It's a very strange thing on this team.   The vast majority of players around the league tend to shoot much better on wide-open threes.  But on our team, we have only 4 players who shoot above even 36.1% on wide-open threes (Jayson, Yabusele, Horford & Jaylen).   Those 4 guys are all shooting 40% and higher on wide-open threes.   

Everybody else on the roster just sucks on wide-open threes.  I don't know why.   Stage fright? 

Even Kyrie, who in prior seasons shot very well on wide-open, is shooting a miserable 34.1% on such shots.

I probably don't have to mention how bad Marcus Smart is on such shots - but it bears noting because not only is he horrific (28.7%) on such shots, he takes a ton of them (101 of his 211 threes on the season have been with no defender within 6 ft).

Maybe Brad needs to bring in a sports psychologist or something.  Or have guys practice shooting in an empty freaking gym!

And sheesh!  We have to do something to get plays going to the darn rim more often!!!
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: JHTruth on February 13, 2018, 06:24:21 PM
On our offense:

One thing that really jumps out to me is that we are doing a very poor job on two particular shot types that it is very important to be successful at:   Shots 'at the rim' (i.e., within 3ft of the hoop) and 'wide open threes'.  Wide-open shots are shots with no defender within 6 feet.

Those are normally the two most efficient shot types and you want to get as many of each as you can and convert them when you can.

We do a poor job of getting to the rim.  We are are ranked 25th in share of our shots that are within 3 ft of the rim.   Further, we do a terrible job of finishing those shots, ranking 26th in FG% on shots within 3ft.

We actually do a great job at generating "wide open threes".  We have generated the 4th most 'wide open' 3PT attempts in the NBA.

Unfortunately, we pretty much suck at hitting wide open threes.   We are ranked 27th in 3PT% on wide-open threes, hitting them at just a 36.7% clip.

League median on wide-open threes is about 40%.   So that is a pretty significant under-performance and, ultimately, a lot of wasted possessions.

It's a very strange thing on this team.   The vast majority of players around the league tend to shoot much better on wide-open threes.  But on our team, we have only 4 players who shoot above even 36.1% on wide-open threes (Jayson, Yabusele, Horford & Jaylen).   Those 4 guys are all shooting 40% and higher on wide-open threes.   

Everybody else on the roster just sucks on wide-open threes.  I don't know why.   Stage fright? 

Even Kyrie, who in prior seasons shot very well on wide-open, is shooting a miserable 34.1% on such shots.

I probably don't have to mention how bad Marcus Smart is on such shots - but it bears noting because not only is he horrific (28.7%) on such shots, he takes a ton of them (101 of his 211 threes on the season have been with no defender within 6 ft).

Maybe Brad needs to bring in a sports psychologist or something.  Or have guys practice shooting in an empty freaking gym!

And sheesh!  We have to do something to get plays going to the darn rim more often!!!

Seems the numbers bear out what the intuitive feel is, that we don't go inside or attack the rim NEAR enough, Baynes is a terrible finisher, and we lack the shooting ability to be firing so many threes, even when wide open. Smart stinks..
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: mmmmm on February 13, 2018, 06:39:06 PM
On our offense:

One thing that really jumps out to me is that we are doing a very poor job on two particular shot types that it is very important to be successful at:   Shots 'at the rim' (i.e., within 3ft of the hoop) and 'wide open threes'.  Wide-open shots are shots with no defender within 6 feet.

Those are normally the two most efficient shot types and you want to get as many of each as you can and convert them when you can.

We do a poor job of getting to the rim.  We are are ranked 25th in share of our shots that are within 3 ft of the rim.   Further, we do a terrible job of finishing those shots, ranking 26th in FG% on shots within 3ft.

We actually do a great job at generating "wide open threes".  We have generated the 4th most 'wide open' 3PT attempts in the NBA.

Unfortunately, we pretty much suck at hitting wide open threes.   We are ranked 27th in 3PT% on wide-open threes, hitting them at just a 36.7% clip.

League median on wide-open threes is about 40%.   So that is a pretty significant under-performance and, ultimately, a lot of wasted possessions.

It's a very strange thing on this team.   The vast majority of players around the league tend to shoot much better on wide-open threes.  But on our team, we have only 4 players who shoot above even 36.1% on wide-open threes (Jayson, Yabusele, Horford & Jaylen).   Those 4 guys are all shooting 40% and higher on wide-open threes.   

Everybody else on the roster just sucks on wide-open threes.  I don't know why.   Stage fright? 

Even Kyrie, who in prior seasons shot very well on wide-open, is shooting a miserable 34.1% on such shots.

I probably don't have to mention how bad Marcus Smart is on such shots - but it bears noting because not only is he horrific (28.7%) on such shots, he takes a ton of them (101 of his 211 threes on the season have been with no defender within 6 ft).

Maybe Brad needs to bring in a sports psychologist or something.  Or have guys practice shooting in an empty freaking gym!

And sheesh!  We have to do something to get plays going to the darn rim more often!!!

Seems the numbers bear out what the intuitive feel is, that we don't go inside or attack the rim NEAR enough, Baynes is a terrible finisher, and we lack the shooting ability to be firing so many threes, even when wide open. Smart stinks..

Baynes has definitely declined in his efficiency at the rim, especially compared to how he started the season and to his career numbers. 

But I think it's important to avoid wasting time pointing the blame finger at him.  Despite starting, he doesn't really get a ton of minutes and he certainly doesn't get a ton of shot attempts.  His numbers aren't really enough to account for just how poorly the team as a whole is doing at getting and finishing shots near the rim.



Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 13, 2018, 06:51:46 PM
I suggest we trade off the LOW IQ Rozier to start . 
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: PhoSita on February 14, 2018, 05:57:58 PM
On our offense:

One thing that really jumps out to me is that we are doing a very poor job on two particular shot types that it is very important to be successful at:   Shots 'at the rim' (i.e., within 3ft of the hoop) and 'wide open threes'.  Wide-open shots are shots with no defender within 6 feet.

Those are normally the two most efficient shot types and you want to get as many of each as you can and convert them when you can.

We do a poor job of getting to the rim.  We are are ranked 25th in share of our shots that are within 3 ft of the rim.   Further, we do a terrible job of finishing those shots, ranking 26th in FG% on shots within 3ft.

We actually do a great job at generating "wide open threes".  We have generated the 4th most 'wide open' 3PT attempts in the NBA.

Unfortunately, we pretty much suck at hitting wide open threes.   We are ranked 27th in 3PT% on wide-open threes, hitting them at just a 36.7% clip.

League median on wide-open threes is about 40%.   So that is a pretty significant under-performance and, ultimately, a lot of wasted possessions.

It's a very strange thing on this team.   The vast majority of players around the league tend to shoot much better on wide-open threes.  But on our team, we have only 4 players who shoot above even 36.1% on wide-open threes (Jayson, Yabusele, Horford & Jaylen).   Those 4 guys are all shooting 40% and higher on wide-open threes.   

Everybody else on the roster just sucks on wide-open threes.  I don't know why.   Stage fright? 

Even Kyrie, who in prior seasons shot very well on wide-open, is shooting a miserable 34.1% on such shots.

I probably don't have to mention how bad Marcus Smart is on such shots - but it bears noting because not only is he horrific (28.7%) on such shots, he takes a ton of them (101 of his 211 threes on the season have been with no defender within 6 ft).

Maybe Brad needs to bring in a sports psychologist or something.  Or have guys practice shooting in an empty freaking gym!

And sheesh!  We have to do something to get plays going to the darn rim more often!!!


How many of those wide open threes are pull-ups as opposed to spot-up threes? 
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: mctyson on February 14, 2018, 06:19:09 PM
Semi plays because he's committing to defense, while most of the team is not.  Of late, they've made a mockery of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ). 

For example, when George Hill and LBJ were having their way in the PnR during the 3rd quarter of Sunday's game, adjustments needed to be made -- see Semi's substitution and subsequent defensive switches (Osman).

People seem to give Brad too much credit for the amount of control he has over the team in mid- February.  When your defense is struggling, playing guys that commit on that end is a way -- sometimes the only way -- to get buy-in.  It's that simple.
I would love to see the advanced defensive stats for Semi. What do opponents shoot against him? The percentages on how good is he defending the pick and roll. How good do people he is guarding shoot the three? What do people shoot against him when he defends in the paint?

Maybe having those stats would enlighten us on why Stevens uses Semi so much.

He uses him because he can switch on everyone.  That is what Stevens values more than anything, including putting the ball in the basket.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: CelticsJG on February 14, 2018, 06:28:08 PM
On our offense:

One thing that really jumps out to me is that we are doing a very poor job on two particular shot types that it is very important to be successful at:   Shots 'at the rim' (i.e., within 3ft of the hoop) and 'wide open threes'.  Wide-open shots are shots with no defender within 6 feet.

Those are normally the two most efficient shot types and you want to get as many of each as you can and convert them when you can.

We do a poor job of getting to the rim.  We are are ranked 25th in share of our shots that are within 3 ft of the rim.   Further, we do a terrible job of finishing those shots, ranking 26th in FG% on shots within 3ft.

We actually do a great job at generating "wide open threes".  We have generated the 4th most 'wide open' 3PT attempts in the NBA.

Unfortunately, we pretty much suck at hitting wide open threes.   We are ranked 27th in 3PT% on wide-open threes, hitting them at just a 36.7% clip.

League median on wide-open threes is about 40%.   So that is a pretty significant under-performance and, ultimately, a lot of wasted possessions.

It's a very strange thing on this team.   The vast majority of players around the league tend to shoot much better on wide-open threes.  But on our team, we have only 4 players who shoot above even 36.1% on wide-open threes (Jayson, Yabusele, Horford & Jaylen).   Those 4 guys are all shooting 40% and higher on wide-open threes.   

Everybody else on the roster just sucks on wide-open threes.  I don't know why.   Stage fright? 

Even Kyrie, who in prior seasons shot very well on wide-open, is shooting a miserable 34.1% on such shots.

I probably don't have to mention how bad Marcus Smart is on such shots - but it bears noting because not only is he horrific (28.7%) on such shots, he takes a ton of them (101 of his 211 threes on the season have been with no defender within 6 ft).

Maybe Brad needs to bring in a sports psychologist or something.  Or have guys practice shooting in an empty freaking gym!

And sheesh!  We have to do something to get plays going to the darn rim more often!!!

How many of those wide open threes are from people who can actually shoot? Kyrie is our only high volume shooter right now, which is a big problem.

Another problem with our offense is the regression of Big Al. His play drop significantly from the beginning of the year.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: CelticSooner on February 14, 2018, 07:06:13 PM
On our offense:

One thing that really jumps out to me is that we are doing a very poor job on two particular shot types that it is very important to be successful at:   Shots 'at the rim' (i.e., within 3ft of the hoop) and 'wide open threes'.  Wide-open shots are shots with no defender within 6 feet.

Those are normally the two most efficient shot types and you want to get as many of each as you can and convert them when you can.

We do a poor job of getting to the rim.  We are are ranked 25th in share of our shots that are within 3 ft of the rim.   Further, we do a terrible job of finishing those shots, ranking 26th in FG% on shots within 3ft.

We actually do a great job at generating "wide open threes".  We have generated the 4th most 'wide open' 3PT attempts in the NBA.

Unfortunately, we pretty much suck at hitting wide open threes.   We are ranked 27th in 3PT% on wide-open threes, hitting them at just a 36.7% clip.

League median on wide-open threes is about 40%.   So that is a pretty significant under-performance and, ultimately, a lot of wasted possessions.

It's a very strange thing on this team.   The vast majority of players around the league tend to shoot much better on wide-open threes.  But on our team, we have only 4 players who shoot above even 36.1% on wide-open threes (Jayson, Yabusele, Horford & Jaylen).   Those 4 guys are all shooting 40% and higher on wide-open threes.   

Everybody else on the roster just sucks on wide-open threes.  I don't know why.   Stage fright? 

Even Kyrie, who in prior seasons shot very well on wide-open, is shooting a miserable 34.1% on such shots.

I probably don't have to mention how bad Marcus Smart is on such shots - but it bears noting because not only is he horrific (28.7%) on such shots, he takes a ton of them (101 of his 211 threes on the season have been with no defender within 6 ft).

Maybe Brad needs to bring in a sports psychologist or something.  Or have guys practice shooting in an empty freaking gym!

And sheesh!  We have to do something to get plays going to the darn rim more often!!!

They talked about this on the Rainin' J's podcast. The system can get guys open shots but if they can't knock them down what does it matter? We were all happy to finally get some guys that can get their own shot and/or get to the rim. They don't do it enough though and tend to take shots they can always get early in the possession. They brick those shots more often than not. The system seems to dictate straddling the fence and not being good enough at either thing. Inconsistency 101
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: SHAQATTACK on February 14, 2018, 07:57:19 PM
waiting till Hayward is playing 100 % .....we are missing a key player ..otherwise the team is what it is till he returns.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on February 14, 2018, 08:05:21 PM
Semi plays because he's committing to defense, while most of the team is not.  Of late, they've made a mockery of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MORBtzEOvQ). 

For example, when George Hill and LBJ were having their way in the PnR during the 3rd quarter of Sunday's game, adjustments needed to be made -- see Semi's substitution and subsequent defensive switches (Osman).

People seem to give Brad too much credit for the amount of control he has over the team in mid- February.  When your defense is struggling, playing guys that commit on that end is a way -- sometimes the only way -- to get buy-in.  It's that simple.
I would love to see the advanced defensive stats for Semi. What do opponents shoot against him? The percentages on how good is he defending the pick and roll. How good do people he is guarding shoot the three? What do people shoot against him when he defends in the paint?

Maybe having those stats would enlighten us on why Stevens uses Semi so much.

If most internet posters can agree that he's not a great defender by the eye test, I wouldn't care to look up or share his advanced stats.  I also don't trust defensive stats, in general -- they're drastically skewed by team performance.  Aside from that, my comment was that he commits to defense... not that he's a good defender. 
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Moranis on February 14, 2018, 10:30:36 PM
Defense has been the bigger problem
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: CelticsJG on February 15, 2018, 03:41:28 AM
Defense will straighten itself out because it have do with people being fatigue.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: kozlodoev on February 15, 2018, 04:52:54 AM
Defense will straighten itself out because it have do with people being fatigue.
People will mysteriously become "untired" as they play more games?
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: mmmmm on February 15, 2018, 06:13:51 PM
On our offense:

One thing that really jumps out to me is that we are doing a very poor job on two particular shot types that it is very important to be successful at:   Shots 'at the rim' (i.e., within 3ft of the hoop) and 'wide open threes'.  Wide-open shots are shots with no defender within 6 feet.

Those are normally the two most efficient shot types and you want to get as many of each as you can and convert them when you can.

We do a poor job of getting to the rim.  We are are ranked 25th in share of our shots that are within 3 ft of the rim.   Further, we do a terrible job of finishing those shots, ranking 26th in FG% on shots within 3ft.

We actually do a great job at generating "wide open threes".  We have generated the 4th most 'wide open' 3PT attempts in the NBA.

Unfortunately, we pretty much suck at hitting wide open threes.   We are ranked 27th in 3PT% on wide-open threes, hitting them at just a 36.7% clip.

League median on wide-open threes is about 40%.   So that is a pretty significant under-performance and, ultimately, a lot of wasted possessions.

It's a very strange thing on this team.   The vast majority of players around the league tend to shoot much better on wide-open threes.  But on our team, we have only 4 players who shoot above even 36.1% on wide-open threes (Jayson, Yabusele, Horford & Jaylen).   Those 4 guys are all shooting 40% and higher on wide-open threes.   

Everybody else on the roster just sucks on wide-open threes.  I don't know why.   Stage fright? 

Even Kyrie, who in prior seasons shot very well on wide-open, is shooting a miserable 34.1% on such shots.

I probably don't have to mention how bad Marcus Smart is on such shots - but it bears noting because not only is he horrific (28.7%) on such shots, he takes a ton of them (101 of his 211 threes on the season have been with no defender within 6 ft).

Maybe Brad needs to bring in a sports psychologist or something.  Or have guys practice shooting in an empty freaking gym!

And sheesh!  We have to do something to get plays going to the darn rim more often!!!

How many of those wide open threes are from people who can actually shoot? Kyrie is our only high volume shooter right now, which is a big problem.

So far this season, the Celtics have attempted 927 'wide open' threes (6th most in the NBA).

Those have been distributed as follows:


Player    3PA  3PT%
Horford   138  45.7% *
Rozier    127  33.9%
Brown     118  40.7% *
Smart     100  29.0%
Tatum      96  46.9% *
Irving     80  35.0%
Morris     74  36.5%
Ojeleye    74  29.7%
Theis      43  32.6%
Larkin     28  35.7%
Nader      24  29.2%
Yabusele   11  45.5% *
Baynes      8   0.0%
Allen       3   0.0%
Bird        1   0.0%
Hayward     1   0.0%
Eddie       1   0.0%


The players with an "*" next to them are the only ones who are hitting these shots at league-median or better.

Quote
Another problem with our offense is the regression of Big Al. His play drop significantly from the beginning of the year.

Not sure I concur about Horford.  Looking at his monthly splits, his efficiencies and rates haven't really changed much.  His scoring per game is almost identical each month.  His rebounds and assists per game are just barely slightly down this month, but so are his minutes.  And the assists are dependent on his teammate's shooting, which has sucked lately.
Title: Re: Let's discuss our offense
Post by: Monkhouse on February 15, 2018, 06:25:38 PM
On our offense:

One thing that really jumps out to me is that we are doing a very poor job on two particular shot types that it is very important to be successful at:   Shots 'at the rim' (i.e., within 3ft of the hoop) and 'wide open threes'.  Wide-open shots are shots with no defender within 6 feet.

Those are normally the two most efficient shot types and you want to get as many of each as you can and convert them when you can.

We do a poor job of getting to the rim.  We are are ranked 25th in share of our shots that are within 3 ft of the rim.   Further, we do a terrible job of finishing those shots, ranking 26th in FG% on shots within 3ft.

We actually do a great job at generating "wide open threes".  We have generated the 4th most 'wide open' 3PT attempts in the NBA.

Unfortunately, we pretty much suck at hitting wide open threes.   We are ranked 27th in 3PT% on wide-open threes, hitting them at just a 36.7% clip.

League median on wide-open threes is about 40%.   So that is a pretty significant under-performance and, ultimately, a lot of wasted possessions.

It's a very strange thing on this team.   The vast majority of players around the league tend to shoot much better on wide-open threes.  But on our team, we have only 4 players who shoot above even 36.1% on wide-open threes (Jayson, Yabusele, Horford & Jaylen).   Those 4 guys are all shooting 40% and higher on wide-open threes.   

Everybody else on the roster just sucks on wide-open threes.  I don't know why.   Stage fright? 

Even Kyrie, who in prior seasons shot very well on wide-open, is shooting a miserable 34.1% on such shots.

I probably don't have to mention how bad Marcus Smart is on such shots - but it bears noting because not only is he horrific (28.7%) on such shots, he takes a ton of them (101 of his 211 threes on the season have been with no defender within 6 ft).

Maybe Brad needs to bring in a sports psychologist or something.  Or have guys practice shooting in an empty freaking gym!

And sheesh!  We have to do something to get plays going to the darn rim more often!!!

How many of those wide open threes are from people who can actually shoot? Kyrie is our only high volume shooter right now, which is a big problem.

So far this season, the Celtics have attempted 927 'wide open' threes (6th most in the NBA).

Those have been distributed as follows:


Player    3PA  3PT%
Horford   138  45.7% *
Rozier    127  33.9%
Brown     118  40.7% *
Smart     100  29.0%
Tatum      96  46.9% *
Irving     80  35.0%
Morris     74  36.5%
Ojeleye    74  29.7%
Theis      43  32.6%
Larkin     28  35.7%
Nader      24  29.2%
Yabusele   11  45.5% *
Baynes      8   0.0%
Allen       3   0.0%
Bird        1   0.0%
Hayward     1   0.0%
Eddie       1   0.0%


The players with an "*" next to them are the only ones who are hitting these shots at league-median or better.

Quote
Another problem with our offense is the regression of Big Al. His play drop significantly from the beginning of the year.

Not sure I concur about Horford.  Looking at his monthly splits, his efficiencies and rates haven't really changed much.  His scoring per game is almost identical each month.  His rebounds and assists per game are just barely slightly down this month, but so are his minutes.  And the assists are dependent on his teammate's shooting, which has sucked lately.

TP for the vital information. I always am amazed at how much knowledge and stats that you, Saltlover, and a few others bring to this forum.

That being said.... Sigh... We really do need shooters. Hayward alleviates some of those issues, but he isn't able to defy all our problems by himself.