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Other Discussions => Off Topic => Current Events / Political Discussion => Topic started by: nickagneta on January 11, 2018, 06:47:42 PM

Title: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 11, 2018, 06:47:42 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-attacks-protections-for-immigrants-from-Ď****holeí-countries-in-oval-office-meeting/ar-AAuzqTo?li=BBnb7Kz

Unreal. This man disgraces the office he holds.

Also, apparently he wants more immigrants from Norway and less from the countries he insulted. Could it be most Norwegians are white?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 11, 2018, 06:56:19 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-attacks-protections-for-immigrants-from-Ď****holeí-countries-in-oval-office-meeting/ar-AAuzqTo?li=BBnb7Kz

Unreal. This man disgraces the office he holds.

Also, apparently he wants more immigrants from Norway and less from the countries he insulted. Could it be most Norwegians are white?

Trump uses blunt language to describe 3rd world countries that provide low skilled workers. Instead he wants merit based immigration from other countries. Oh no....

Why don't you talk about the Clinton foundation stealing relief funds from Hati after the natural disaster?(among other things)

Hillary putting her brother in charge of gold mines in Hati?

Cry me a river....

Let me guess you're response,  "whataboutism "

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: blink on January 11, 2018, 07:01:50 PM
Just another vulgar racist comment from an already known racist.  Why are we even surprised at this point?  He has repeatedly hurt our country with these types of comments.

In the days leading up to Martin Luther King day and a day after the meeting to solve the DACA issue, it is just shockingly idiotic.  Trump doesn't really get what makes our country great.  He will never get it.  There will be a small % of white nationalists that are going to cheer this.  It does nothing except divide us as a country
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 11, 2018, 07:05:00 PM
Just another vulgar racist comment from an already known racist.  Why are we even surprised at this point?  He has repeatedly hurt our country with these types of comments.

In the days leading up to Martin Luther King day and a day after the meeting to solve the DACA issue, it is just shockingly idiotic.  Trump doesn't really get what makes our country great.  He will never get it.  There will be a small % of white nationalists that are going to cheer this.  It does nothing except divide us as a country

And yet Dr kings niece , Dr Alveda King is a huge supporter of Trump.

Bye bye PC culture, nice knowing you.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: blink on January 11, 2018, 07:06:34 PM
Just another vulgar racist comment from an already known racist.  Why are we even surprised at this point?  He has repeatedly hurt our country with these types of comments.

In the days leading up to Martin Luther King day and a day after the meeting to solve the DACA issue, it is just shockingly idiotic.  Trump doesn't really get what makes our country great.  He will never get it.  There will be a small % of white nationalists that are going to cheer this.  It does nothing except divide us as a country

And yet Dr kings niece , Dr Alveda King is a huge supporter of Trump.

Bye bye PC culture, nice knowing you.

Who cares...even you, the biggest trump supporter can't defend this crap. 
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: liam on January 11, 2018, 07:09:47 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-attacks-protections-for-immigrants-from-Ď****holeí-countries-in-oval-office-meeting/ar-AAuzqTo?li=BBnb7Kz

Unreal. This man disgraces the office he holds.

Also, apparently he wants more immigrants from Norway and less from the countries he insulted. Could it be most Norwegians are white?

Trump uses blunt language to describe 3rd world countries that provide low skilled workers. Instead he wants merit based immigration from other countries. Oh no....

Why don't you talk about the Clinton foundation stealing relief funds from Hati after the natural disaster?(among other things)

Hillary putting her brother in charge of gold mines in Hati?

Cry me a river....

Let me guess you're response,  "whataboutism "

What are you talking about? :o
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 11, 2018, 07:10:27 PM
Disgusting and offensive language.

The TPS that Trump is arguing against is by definition a protection for immigrants who are from countries in which deportation would be dangerous due to armed conflict or natural disaster or some other condition that makes reentry dangerous.

The one I read reference was El Salvador, which gained status as a TPS country in 2001. The administration wants all immigrants to either have a green card etc by 2019 or be deported. I think that is rather fair.

If temporary status lasts more than 18 years than I think we've reached the point where that country might just be a ****hole as abrasive as the language sounds.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 11, 2018, 07:10:35 PM
Just another vulgar racist comment from an already known racist.  Why are we even surprised at this point?  He has repeatedly hurt our country with these types of comments.

In the days leading up to Martin Luther King day and a day after the meeting to solve the DACA issue, it is just shockingly idiotic.  Trump doesn't really get what makes our country great.  He will never get it.  There will be a small % of white nationalists that are going to cheer this.  It does nothing except divide us as a country

And yet Dr kings niece , Dr Alveda King is a huge supporter of Trump.

Bye bye PC culture, nice knowing you.

Who cares...even you, the biggest trump supporter can't defend this crap.

And Obama tells Africans they can't have air conditioning and cars because of environmental concerns....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBE0RKbRbl4&app=desktop

Who's the one holding 3rd world countries down?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: liam on January 11, 2018, 07:12:22 PM
Just another vulgar racist comment from an already known racist.  Why are we even surprised at this point?  He has repeatedly hurt our country with these types of comments.

In the days leading up to Martin Luther King day and a day after the meeting to solve the DACA issue, it is just shockingly idiotic.  Trump doesn't really get what makes our country great.  He will never get it.  There will be a small % of white nationalists that are going to cheer this.  It does nothing except divide us as a country

And yet Dr kings niece , Dr Alveda King is a huge supporter of Trump.

Bye bye PC culture, nice knowing you.

Who cares...even you, the biggest trump supporter can't defend this crap.

And Obama tells Africans they can't have air conditioning and cars because of environmental concerns....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBE0RKbRbl4&app=desktop

Who's the one holding 3rd world countries down?

Is it national gibberish day?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 11, 2018, 07:13:07 PM
Just another vulgar racist comment from an already known racist.  Why are we even surprised at this point?  He has repeatedly hurt our country with these types of comments.

In the days leading up to Martin Luther King day and a day after the meeting to solve the DACA issue, it is just shockingly idiotic.  Trump doesn't really get what makes our country great.  He will never get it.  There will be a small % of white nationalists that are going to cheer this.  It does nothing except divide us as a country
I dont really think this is necessarily racist.

The conversation is about protected status of immigrants from TPS countries. Effectively these countries are argued to be so dangerous that deportation isnt feasible. Trump has longed argued for merit-based immigration.

Now once again it seems Trump is taking a stance that helps white people and hurts minorities and with his background that is obviously going to raise some red flags, but correlation isnt always causation.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: liam on January 11, 2018, 07:16:18 PM
Just another vulgar racist comment from an already known racist.  Why are we even surprised at this point?  He has repeatedly hurt our country with these types of comments.

In the days leading up to Martin Luther King day and a day after the meeting to solve the DACA issue, it is just shockingly idiotic.  Trump doesn't really get what makes our country great.  He will never get it.  There will be a small % of white nationalists that are going to cheer this.  It does nothing except divide us as a country
I dont really think this is necessarily racist.

The conversation is about protected status of immigrants from TPS countries. Effectively these countries are argued to be so dangerous that deportation isnt feasible. Trump has longed argued for merit-based immigration.

Now once again it seems Trump is taking a stance that helps white people and hurts minorities and with his background that is obviously going to raise some red flags, but correlation isnt always causation.

He's just always talking and acting like a racist but that doesn't make him one? I'd would have to disagree.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 11, 2018, 07:19:52 PM
This doesnít really bother me. Itís a closed door meeting, and frankly, his question has some merit.

Are people really shocked and appalled to hear vulgarity?  Listen to a hot mic sometime. Politicians, celebrities, Joe Public... thereís not a lot of difference.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 11, 2018, 07:21:18 PM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: jackpercussion on January 11, 2018, 07:21:40 PM
Wait until the F bombs that start flying in a month or so when a number of high figure democrats are arrested and charged with corruption.  Tick Tock Tick Tock.  It will be ironic when they start squealing about the corruption in Obam's cabinet in order to avoid getting a needle in the arm.  In the meantime, all of us Trump supports will be smiling about a booming economy, lowest unemployment in over 30 years, lowest number of people on food stamps and welfare, highest home ownership.  I can go on and on.   None of this would have happened if Clinton were in office.  It also has NOTHING to do with Obama.  8 year of nothing!!!!

By the way,  I teach in an inner city school in which 90% of our students received free or reduced lunch.  Where children live in shack like homes with no running water or electricity.  Where most children have only one or no parents because the parents are incarcerated, drug rehab or dead.  We had 3 murders within 1 block of our school last year.  One was a body left burned and unrecognizable outside a trash can across the street from the school.  You know what the democratic party has ever done for these people.  I will tell you what they say to me, "not a [dang] thing."  You want to know why Trump got elected?  It's because the democratic party has let me down.   I work in this environment and with these children.  I see first hand everyday the depression and anguish.  I try give the kids as much of my time as possible; sometimes more than my own children.  The only thing democrats want is a vote.  They will only help you if you vote for them.  Then once elected, you never see them again!!

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on January 11, 2018, 07:21:51 PM
Trump is correct.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: blink on January 11, 2018, 07:26:51 PM
Just another vulgar racist comment from an already known racist.  Why are we even surprised at this point?  He has repeatedly hurt our country with these types of comments.

In the days leading up to Martin Luther King day and a day after the meeting to solve the DACA issue, it is just shockingly idiotic.  Trump doesn't really get what makes our country great.  He will never get it.  There will be a small % of white nationalists that are going to cheer this.  It does nothing except divide us as a country
I dont really think this is necessarily racist.

The conversation is about protected status of immigrants from TPS countries. Effectively these countries are argued to be so dangerous that deportation isnt feasible. Trump has longed argued for merit-based immigration.

Now once again it seems Trump is taking a stance that helps white people and hurts minorities and with his background that is obviously going to raise some red flags, but correlation isnt always causation.

Well I am just going to have to disagree with you.  To say that an immigrant from Haiti (because of their country of origin) can't be an intelligent contributing citizen to the US but everyone from Norway is fine is pretty racist to me.  He might not use the words "black people" and "white people" but that is splitting hairs.  If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

His statement should be pretty offensive to all americans, well everyone but white national americans.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 11, 2018, 07:35:22 PM
Just another vulgar racist comment from an already known racist.  Why are we even surprised at this point?  He has repeatedly hurt our country with these types of comments.

In the days leading up to Martin Luther King day and a day after the meeting to solve the DACA issue, it is just shockingly idiotic.  Trump doesn't really get what makes our country great.  He will never get it.  There will be a small % of white nationalists that are going to cheer this.  It does nothing except divide us as a country
I dont really think this is necessarily racist.

The conversation is about protected status of immigrants from TPS countries. Effectively these countries are argued to be so dangerous that deportation isnt feasible. Trump has longed argued for merit-based immigration.

Now once again it seems Trump is taking a stance that helps white people and hurts minorities and with his background that is obviously going to raise some red flags, but correlation isnt always causation.

Well I am just going to have to disagree with you.  To say that an immigrant from Haiti (because of their country of origin) can't be an intelligent contributing citizen to the US but everyone from Norway is fine is pretty racist to me.  He might not use the words "black people" and "white people" but that is splitting hairs.  If it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

His statement should be pretty offensive to all americans, well everyone but white national americans.
Im a little confused here.

Trump isnt arguing that these people cant be an intelligent contributing citizens. That came from your imagination. He is arguing specifically for the removal of a protected status from countries which have been deemed dangerous to deport people to. The countries are by definition, temporary ****holes. His proposal is to remove this status so immigrants must either attain a proper immigration status (e.g. a green card) or face deportation.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: hwangjini_1 on January 11, 2018, 07:36:36 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-attacks-protections-for-immigrants-from-Ď****holeí-countries-in-oval-office-meeting/ar-AAuzqTo?li=BBnb7Kz

Unreal. This man disgraces the office he holds.

Also, apparently he wants more immigrants from Norway and less from the countries he insulted. Could it be most Norwegians are white?

Trump uses blunt language to describe 3rd world countries that provide low skilled workers. Instead he wants merit based immigration from other countries. Oh no....

Why don't you talk about the Clinton foundation stealing relief funds from Hati after the natural disaster?(among other things)

Hillary putting her brother in charge of gold mines in Hati?

Cry me a river....

Let me guess you're response,  "whataboutism "
well, isnt it?  ???
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 11, 2018, 07:37:37 PM
When sentences begin with "what he was trying to say was" or "what he meant was" or "if he had said it this way..."  this is Trump's supporters acknowledging that Donald Trump, our President and the leader of the free world, has once again misspoken.   If he meant that he wants educated and best and brightest from around the world to come to America -- then that's what he should have said.   He's our genius President for gd sake. 

 
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 11, 2018, 07:38:15 PM
Just another vulgar racist comment from an already known racist.  Why are we even surprised at this point?  He has repeatedly hurt our country with these types of comments.

In the days leading up to Martin Luther King day and a day after the meeting to solve the DACA issue, it is just shockingly idiotic.  Trump doesn't really get what makes our country great.  He will never get it.  There will be a small % of white nationalists that are going to cheer this.  It does nothing except divide us as a country
I dont really think this is necessarily racist.

The conversation is about protected status of immigrants from TPS countries. Effectively these countries are argued to be so dangerous that deportation isnt feasible. Trump has longed argued for merit-based immigration.

Now once again it seems Trump is taking a stance that helps white people and hurts minorities and with his background that is obviously going to raise some red flags, but correlation isnt always causation.

He's just always talking and acting like a racist but that doesn't make him one? I'd would have to disagree.
Legislating his whole body of questionable comments is a discussion for another thread.

This incident specifically is hardly evidence of racism.

I think it is more likely that he deemed these countries "****holes" because there exist by definition "conditions in the country that temporarily prevent the country's nationals from returning safely, or in certain circumstances, where the country is unable to handle the return of its nationals adequately".

Lets call Trump racist when he does racist things. Not now.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 11, 2018, 07:41:22 PM
This doesnít really bother me. Itís a closed door meeting, and frankly, his question has some merit.

Are people really shocked and appalled to hear vulgarity?  Listen to a hot mic sometime. Politicians, celebrities, Joe Public... thereís not a lot of difference.
The vulgarity neither shocks me nor surprises me. Its how he did it insulting other countries. If he stuttered and said: Oh(word meaning crap). No big deal. If he is describing Obamacare and drops the f bomb. No biggie. But denigrating other countries(with mostly brown or black skinned people) is beneath the office of the president.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 11, 2018, 07:42:14 PM
When sentences begin with "what he was trying to say was" or "what he meant was" or "if he had said it this way..."  this is Trump's supporters acknowledging that Donald Trump, our President and the leader of the free world, has once again misspoken.   If he meant that he wants educated and best and brightest from around the world to come to America -- then that's what he should have said.   He's our genius President for gd sake. 

 
Not sure if you are making some sort of general comment, but in this thread 0 sentences have started with any of your quotes.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: OnPoint on January 11, 2018, 07:45:56 PM
There is a migrant crisis going on right now in Europe that few around here realize the full extent of. http://www.euronews.com/2018/01/11/italy-and-france-urge-europe-to-increase-efforts-to-ease-migrant-crisis


Trump is probably right on this. Until we address domestic entitlements, open borders is not a good idea.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: OnPoint on January 11, 2018, 07:49:46 PM
This doesnít really bother me. Itís a closed door meeting, and frankly, his question has some merit.

Are people really shocked and appalled to hear vulgarity?  Listen to a hot mic sometime. Politicians, celebrities, Joe Public... thereís not a lot of difference.
The vulgarity neither shocks me nor surprises me. Its how he did it insulting other countries. If he stuttered and said: Oh(word meaning crap). No big deal. If he is describing Obamacare and drops the f bomb. No biggie. But denigrating other countries(with mostly brown or black skinned people) is beneath the office of the president.

So essentially, Trump wants people who are more likely educated and producers, and your first instinct is to say that it's likely racist? Sort of impulsive isn't it? That word gets thrown around way too carelessly nowadays.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 11, 2018, 07:51:47 PM
There is a migrant crisis going on right now in Europe that few around here realize the full extent of. http://www.euronews.com/2018/01/11/italy-and-france-urge-europe-to-increase-efforts-to-ease-migrant-crisis


Trump is probably right on this. Until we address domestic entitlements, open borders is not a good idea.

Yes I would say 400+ acid attacks in London last year is good cause for concern about who we are letting in....( among many other concerns).

I don't care what race the person is, just don't want low skilled people who can't assimilate to Western culture being brought in by the hundreds of thousands.

Why can't we worry about our own citizens?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: More Banners on January 11, 2018, 07:58:00 PM
I get the notion of keeping the Temporary in 'temporary protected status,' but at what point is a country no longer a crap hole?  Haiti has been the armpit of the Western Hemisphere since Columbus. I mean, I wouldn't even send my mother in law there.

This one isn't about policy, it's about the ability to communicate public ideas in a thoughtful, respectful, nuanced way.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 11, 2018, 08:04:10 PM
This doesnít really bother me. Itís a closed door meeting, and frankly, his question has some merit.

Are people really shocked and appalled to hear vulgarity?  Listen to a hot mic sometime. Politicians, celebrities, Joe Public... thereís not a lot of difference.
The vulgarity neither shocks me nor surprises me. Its how he did it insulting other countries. If he stuttered and said: Oh(word meaning crap). No big deal. If he is describing Obamacare and drops the f bomb. No biggie. But denigrating other countries(with mostly brown or black skinned people) is beneath the office of the president.

So essentially, Trump wants people who are more likely educated and producers, and your first instinct is to say that it's likely racist? Sort of impulsive isn't it? That word gets thrown around way too carelessly nowadays.
I never said racist but add the Muslim ban with comments about Mexicans being thieves and racists with his not coming down hard on the Neo-Nazis in Charlottesville and finally calling countries with mostly brown or black people crapholes while saying he wants more Norwegians(white people) coming into the country and its not a good look for a US president in the 21st century.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 11, 2018, 08:07:17 PM
I get the notion of keeping the Temporary in 'temporary protected status,' but at what point is a country no longer a crap hole?  Haiti has been the armpit of the Western Hemisphere since Columbus. I mean, I wouldn't even send my mother in law there.

This one isn't about policy, it's about the ability to communicate public ideas in a thoughtful, respectful, nuanced way.
What do you mean by "public ideas"
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 11, 2018, 08:11:46 PM
Trump uses blunt language to describe 3rd world countries that provide low skilled workers. Instead he wants merit based immigration from other countries. Oh no....
Oh yes, Trump "loves" merit based immigration. I'm guessing it's because the H1B program doesn't bring in too many Norwegians.

https://qz.com/1176576/h1b-visa-under-trump-is-already-harder-to-get/
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Snakehead on January 11, 2018, 08:11:59 PM


Are people really shocked and appalled to hear vulgarity?

I think it's what he's saying Roy.  That's pretty disgusting.  Notice what country isn't a ****hole.  And the funniest part is they are a very socialized country politically.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Snakehead on January 11, 2018, 08:12:47 PM
This doesnít really bother me. Itís a closed door meeting, and frankly, his question has some merit.

Are people really shocked and appalled to hear vulgarity?  Listen to a hot mic sometime. Politicians, celebrities, Joe Public... thereís not a lot of difference.
The vulgarity neither shocks me nor surprises me. Its how he did it insulting other countries. If he stuttered and said: Oh(word meaning crap). No big deal. If he is describing Obamacare and drops the f bomb. No biggie. But denigrating other countries(with mostly brown or black skinned people) is beneath the office of the president.

So essentially, Trump wants people who are more likely educated and producers, and your first instinct is to say that it's likely racist? Sort of impulsive isn't it? That word gets thrown around way too carelessly nowadays.
I never said racist but add the Muslim ban with comments about Mexicans being thieves and racists with his not coming down hard on the Neo-Nazis in Charlottesville and finally calling countries with mostly brown or black people crapholes while saying he wants more Norwegians(white people) coming into the country and its not a good look for a US president in the 21st century.

Almost like there is some kind of pattern as well.  Lets dance around it though and act like it's not obvious.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 11, 2018, 08:14:23 PM
So essentially, Trump wants people who are more likely educated and producers, and your first instinct is to say that it's likely racist? Sort of impulsive isn't it? That word gets thrown around way too carelessly nowadays.
LOL. Is that why he's grinding his axe for the H1B visa program? In case you wondered, it exclusively brings in people that are highly educated... but the problem is they're predominantly from India and China... oops.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: CelticD on January 11, 2018, 08:16:25 PM
I'm a 2nd generation Haitian and I'm not surprised. It doesn't really offend me honestly, this is how many people view Haiti as a country. When I was a kid even other black kids used to make fun of Haitians. I was spared because I had "good hair" (meaning my hair is curly), I dressed well (I came from an upper-middle class family), and was never ashy ("Ashy Haitians" used to be the running joke back in my middle school).

As far as Trump goes, I'm surprised something like this hasn't come out sooner. I coulda told you what he thought of my family's country.

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 11, 2018, 08:16:31 PM
This doesnít really bother me. Itís a closed door meeting, and frankly, his question has some merit.

Are people really shocked and appalled to hear vulgarity?  Listen to a hot mic sometime. Politicians, celebrities, Joe Public... thereís not a lot of difference.
The vulgarity neither shocks me nor surprises me. Its how he did it insulting other countries. If he stuttered and said: Oh(word meaning crap). No big deal. If he is describing Obamacare and drops the f bomb. No biggie. But denigrating other countries(with mostly brown or black skinned people) is beneath the office of the president.

So essentially, Trump wants people who are more likely educated and producers, and your first instinct is to say that it's likely racist? Sort of impulsive isn't it? That word gets thrown around way too carelessly nowadays.
I never said racist but add the Muslim ban with comments about Mexicans being thieves and racists with his not coming down hard on the Neo-Nazis in Charlottesville and finally calling countries with mostly brown or black people crapholes while saying he wants more Norwegians(white people) coming into the country and its not a good look for a US president in the 21st century.

Almost like there is some kind of pattern as well.  Lets dance around it though and act like it's not obvious.

So I guess Obama was racist because he put those middle eastern/ North African countries on a list for terror threats? The same list Trump used ? Countries that don't have US embassies or centralized governments?  and can't properly vet who they are sending?

Muslims/Islam is not a race by the way.

What a racist....
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Snakehead on January 11, 2018, 08:18:02 PM
This doesnít really bother me. Itís a closed door meeting, and frankly, his question has some merit.

Are people really shocked and appalled to hear vulgarity?  Listen to a hot mic sometime. Politicians, celebrities, Joe Public... thereís not a lot of difference.
The vulgarity neither shocks me nor surprises me. Its how he did it insulting other countries. If he stuttered and said: Oh(word meaning crap). No big deal. If he is describing Obamacare and drops the f bomb. No biggie. But denigrating other countries(with mostly brown or black skinned people) is beneath the office of the president.

So essentially, Trump wants people who are more likely educated and producers, and your first instinct is to say that it's likely racist? Sort of impulsive isn't it? That word gets thrown around way too carelessly nowadays.
I never said racist but add the Muslim ban with comments about Mexicans being thieves and racists with his not coming down hard on the Neo-Nazis in Charlottesville and finally calling countries with mostly brown or black people crapholes while saying he wants more Norwegians(white people) coming into the country and its not a good look for a US president in the 21st century.

Almost like there is some kind of pattern as well.  Lets dance around it though and act like it's not obvious.

So I guess Obama was racist because he put those middle eastern/ North African countries on a list for terror threats? The same list Trump used ? Countries that don't have US embassies or centralized governments?  and can't properly vet who they are sending?

What a racist....

Obama was racist and imperialist when it came to foreign policy, yes.  Like every modern president (Obama was also very bad in this area because he carried forth and even forward Bush's actions).

Trump is clearly racist on immigration.  It's blatant.  Again, lets dance around and act like it's not though and then now try to change the subject.

As far as the Muslim addition to your post, do you want me to break it down?  Here: he likes you less if you're brown.  I can name off countries one by one if it helps but that's the simpler way to put it.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 11, 2018, 08:23:44 PM
This doesnít really bother me. Itís a closed door meeting, and frankly, his question has some merit.

Are people really shocked and appalled to hear vulgarity?  Listen to a hot mic sometime. Politicians, celebrities, Joe Public... thereís not a lot of difference.
The vulgarity neither shocks me nor surprises me. Its how he did it insulting other countries. If he stuttered and said: Oh(word meaning crap). No big deal. If he is describing Obamacare and drops the f bomb. No biggie. But denigrating other countries(with mostly brown or black skinned people) is beneath the office of the president.

So essentially, Trump wants people who are more likely educated and producers, and your first instinct is to say that it's likely racist? Sort of impulsive isn't it? That word gets thrown around way too carelessly nowadays.
I never said racist but add the Muslim ban with comments about Mexicans being thieves and racists with his not coming down hard on the Neo-Nazis in Charlottesville and finally calling countries with mostly brown or black people crapholes while saying he wants more Norwegians(white people) coming into the country and its not a good look for a US president in the 21st century.

Almost like there is some kind of pattern as well.  Lets dance around it though and act like it's not obvious.

So I guess Obama was racist because he put those middle eastern/ North African countries on a list for terror threats? The same list Trump used ? Countries that don't have US embassies or centralized governments?  and can't properly vet who they are sending?

What a racist....

Obama was racist and imperialist when it came to foreign policy, yes.  Like every modern president (Obama was also very bad in this area).

Trump is clearly racist on immigration.  It's blatant.  Again, lets dance around and act like it's not though and then now try to change the subject.

As far as the Muslim addition to your post, do you want me to break it down?  Here: he likes you less if you're brown.  I can name off countries one by one if it helps but that's the simpler way to put it.

Yea radical Islam doesn't exist I guess? It's just cause they're brown....
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 11, 2018, 08:27:39 PM
Yea radical Islam doesn't exist I guess? It's just cause they're brown....
Yes, the travel ban is just about radical islam, the spat with Mexico is just about illegal border crossing, and the muscle flexing about Indian tech workers is just about jobs.

Let's see... Arabs, Mexicans, Indians... find the common trend.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Snakehead on January 11, 2018, 08:27:40 PM


Yea radical Islam doesn't exist I guess? It's just cause they're brown....


In Haiti?  Instead of posting to me, do some research on what you are talking about.  Mostly Catholic and Protestant.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 11, 2018, 08:29:30 PM


Yea radical Islam doesn't exist I guess? It's just cause they're brown....


In Haiti?  Instead of posting to me, do some research on what you are talking about.  Mostly Catholic and Protestant.

I was referring to the "Muslim ban" that another poster mentioned.

Stop trying to spin.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on January 11, 2018, 08:30:55 PM
I rarely reply to these Trump things, but this takes the cake, I have to.

I don't care if you support him or not, there is NO defense for making statements like this.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Snakehead on January 11, 2018, 08:31:29 PM


Yea radical Islam doesn't exist I guess? It's just cause they're brown....


In Haiti?  Instead of posting to me, do some research on what you are talking about.  Mostly Catholic and Protestant.

I was referring to the "Muslim ban" that another poster mentioned.

Stop trying to spin.

Answer about Haiti?  Why would you change the subject?  Why would he be against good trust able Christians?  Maybe it's because he's a blatant racist.

You're doing backflips to avoid it.  It's just funny, as I said above, to watch people do this kind of thing.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 11, 2018, 08:31:37 PM


Yea radical Islam doesn't exist I guess? It's just cause they're brown....


In Haiti?  Instead of posting to me, do some research on what you are talking about.  Mostly Catholic and Protestant.
By the way, you also need to add El Salvador to the list these days.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: blink on January 11, 2018, 08:31:49 PM
I rarely reply to these Trump things, but this takes the cake, I have to.

I don't care if you support him or not, there is NO defense for making statements like this.

Thank you.  TP.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 11, 2018, 08:32:35 PM
Yea radical Islam doesn't exist I guess? It's just cause they're brown....
Yes, the travel ban is just about radical islam, the spat with Mexico is just about illegal border crossing, and the muscle flexing about Indian tech workers is just about jobs.

Let's see... Arabs, Mexicans, Indians... find the common trend.

Low skilled workers undercutting our low skilled workers , while taking advantage of entitlements coming illegally  from Mexico.

If Canadians were coming in at the same numbers illegally,  I would say the same thing.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Snakehead on January 11, 2018, 08:32:48 PM


Yea radical Islam doesn't exist I guess? It's just cause they're brown....


In Haiti?  Instead of posting to me, do some research on what you are talking about.  Mostly Catholic and Protestant.
By the way, you also need to add El Salvador to the list these days.

You're right.  It's hard to keep track of but nevertheless the thread is easy to pick up what the list entails.  With El Salvadorian family members, I should not forget that though.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Snakehead on January 11, 2018, 08:34:03 PM
I rarely reply to these Trump things, but this takes the cake, I have to.

I don't care if you support him or not, there is NO defense for making statements like this.

Same, that's why I had to come in and see who could possibly be defending it and what arguments they were using.  Didn't disappoint.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on January 11, 2018, 08:38:39 PM
I rarely reply to these Trump things, but this takes the cake, I have to.

I don't care if you support him or not, there is NO defense for making statements like this.

Same, that's why I had to come in and see who could possibly be defending it and what arguments they were using.  Didn't disappoint.

It's not even about politics for me at this point, it's just about character. Out of all the words he could have used, that is the one he picked?

We can agree or disagree with Presidents and their policies, but I think we can all agree that Presidents should hold a high character, and this isn't the case.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 11, 2018, 08:39:04 PM
In case anyone wondered, the WH is not denying he said that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42656433
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: chicagoceltic on January 11, 2018, 09:03:41 PM
In case anyone wondered, the WH is not denying he said that.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42656433
Why would they deny it?  He plays solely to his base and they lap stuff like this up.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 11, 2018, 09:04:32 PM
Unfit.

MAGA win.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Amonkey on January 11, 2018, 09:05:41 PM
I think it's unfortunate that people still think that immigrants are smooching off the system. They make all this effort to come to the US to live on bare minimum on welfare? New immigrants do live on bare minimum but that's so they can make enough to invest on the country. As a former immigrant, my parents came and worked hard. At that time, my dad rode a bike given to him and could barely afford a $300 car. 20+ years later, they've bought a house, sent 3 kids to college, bought cars and invested tremendously in the country. Isn't this the kind of people we want in our country? People that are moving up in social class and investing in the country? They pay their taxes, they buy from both big store and small store, they keep the economy running.

I work at a nonprofit now and live well thanks to them. I believe I am a goods member of society. I do work in the community that helps people stay active which in turn, reduces the cost of health care. I may not have a big salary or be highly educated (I did go to college but don't have a masters or doctorate). I have worked at uber and talked to these highly educated people and they're not looking to invest in the country. They're looking to work and investing in their country.

I just think that by looking mainly at where they're coming from and not at what they're bringing to the table is a very short sighted way of looking at things. The work effort and determination that many immigrants have are what keeps struggling cities alive.

Ps. I don't want to hear anything about taking away jobs. I grew up on the Cape and we never relied on welfare, especially in the winter. I know many people that happily work in the summer and collect unemployment in the winter. Besides, the mechanism prevents immigrants from doing that anyway since you have to have some legal documents to gain those benefits.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Sketch5 on January 11, 2018, 09:13:54 PM
I rarely reply to these Trump things, but this takes the cake, I have to.

I don't care if you support him or not, there is NO defense for making statements like this.

Same, that's why I had to come in and see who could possibly be defending it and what arguments they were using.  Didn't disappoint.

It's not even about politics for me at this point, it's just about character. Out of all the words he could have used, that is the one he picked?

We can agree or disagree with Presidents and their policies, but I think we can all agree that Presidents should hold a high character, and this isn't the case.

Agreed. I didn't care for Bush, but I could sit down and have a beer with him. Had a friend who got to meat him, and said he was really nice and fun to talk to.

Part of what I look for in a candidate is if I can do just that. With the last election, I couldn't sit down with Hillary, and I would flip the table on Trump and crack him in the head with the chair. Bernie was the only one I would want to have a beer with. I bet he's got some great stories about Hogwarts. :P
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kiwiceltic on January 11, 2018, 09:31:12 PM
This is all quite amusing... Trump is out of his depth, the whole world sees it daily, the BS that comes out of his mouth actually makes me embarrassed for my American friends.

There is no reason why you can't have a merit based immigration system and a system for taking refugees, but no immigration system can perfect.

Anders Breivik is highly educated, white, and Norwegian, the perfect Trump immigration target... look how that turned out.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: liam on January 11, 2018, 09:38:00 PM
I think it's unfortunate that people still think that immigrants are smooching off the system. They make all this effort to come to the US to live on bare minimum on welfare? New immigrants do live on bare minimum but that's so they can make enough to invest on the country. As a former immigrant, my parents came and worked hard. At that time, my dad rode a bike given to him and could barely afford a $300 car. 20+ years later, they've bought a house, sent 3 kids to college, bought cars and invested tremendously in the country. Isn't this the kind of people we want in our country? People that are moving up in social class and investing in the country? They pay their taxes, they buy from both big store and small store, they keep the economy running.

I work at a nonprofit now and live well thanks to them. I believe I am a goods member of society. I do work in the community that helps people stay active which in turn, reduces the cost of health care. I may not have a big salary or be highly educated (I did go to college but don't have a masters or doctorate). I have worked at uber and talked to these highly educated people and they're not looking to invest in the country. They're looking to work and investing in their country.

I just think that by looking mainly at where they're coming from and not at what they're bringing to the table is a very short sighted way of looking at things. The work effort and determination that many immigrants have are what keeps struggling cities alive.

Ps. I don't want to hear anything about taking away jobs. I grew up on the Cape and we never relied on welfare, especially in the winter. I know many people that happily work in the summer and collect unemployment in the winter. Besides, the mechanism prevents immigrants from doing that anyway since you have to have some legal documents to gain those benefits.

I agree with you. This is a country of immigrants. Trumps wife is an immigrant. Trump comes from immigrants.  The hypocrite and chief is an ugly hateful person. If this is a Christian country, where is all the Christian compassion? Is saying Merry Christmas all that Trump and company think it means to be a Christian? If so then no wonder why he thinks the world is so sad.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 11, 2018, 11:31:05 PM
From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 12, 2018, 12:19:35 AM
From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.

Except Norway is one of the most developed countries in the world.

To quote the great Patriot Tucker Carlson

"Last year we took in 23,000 from El Salvador , we took in 404 from Norway, so we overwhelmingly  give advantages to extreme poverty countries, what effect does that have on the poverty rate in this country?"

According to the Center of Immigration studies immigrants from central and South American countries, the rate of welfare use(at least 1 program) is 73%

From south Asia, a non white region, it's 17%.


Guess it's all about white power eh?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 12, 2018, 12:26:36 AM
From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.
When did he say "or demographically similar places"?

He didnt. Norway is one of the most advanced countries in the world and its average citizen received 8 years more schooling than the average Haitian. Considering that he's long been a proponent of merit-based immigration and endorsed the possibility of more immigrants from Asian countries because of their positive economic impact, I think its more than possible that "places like this" referred to high levels of wealth and education.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 12, 2018, 12:45:49 AM
Appreciate the responses but there's still zero case being made for why being from a "****hole" country is inherently negative and being from places "like Norway" is inherently positive when it comes to being legally admitted to the country. Immigrants aren't a representative sample and we don't recruit them.

Also still fuzzy on why the head of the American government casually insulting multiple nations and the homelands of millions of Americans is once again something to be handwaved away and maybe a good thing.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: CelticD on January 12, 2018, 01:02:01 AM
So much of this presidency thus far is Trump saying some off-the-wall ish, and everybody trying to justify and rationalize it, as if Trump was cognizant of the data that supported/rationalized whatever he said in the moment he said it.

He probably only said Norway because of the joint news conference he just had with their Prime Minister, and they probably treated him nicely before and after the conference so he wondered why he wasn't talking to more people like that.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 12, 2018, 01:23:51 AM
So much of this presidency thus far is Trump saying some off-the-wall ish, and everybody trying to justify and rationalize it, as if Trump was cognizant of the data that supported/rationalized whatever he said in the moment he said it.

Agree, part of having a President who speaks in such a vague, rambling and ill-informed way is that people are motivated to read meaning that isn't really there. There's a strain of it that's very "leader is always right and definitely not a half-witted bigot, it's just up to us to interpret exactly how he's right this time", but it's true of a lot of detractors too, who can read too much malice or intent into things that are just plain old stupid. Here though, Trump has plenty of history with race and I think racial animosity is deep-seated enough that it's more likely to come out in an off-the-cuff statement.


Quote
He probably only said Norway because of the joint news conference he just had with their Prime Minister, and they probably treated him nicely before and after the conference so he wondered why he wasn't talking to more people like that.

Wouldn't say only, the guy clearly has some very, we'll say "rigid", ideas about good places and bad places and they very coincidentally tend to heavily overlap with racial demographics (and personal financial interest). But the specific country was almost certainly because of recently interacting with them.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: KGs Knee on January 12, 2018, 01:25:43 AM
I mean, yeah, I'd rather bring in immigrants from Norway, too.  Or China, Japan, or Canada.

People from those countries simply are more likely to be high level contributing and productive members of our society than someone from Haiti, Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, ect..

That has nothing to do with race, it's a simple matter of fact.

Now, I don't think that is the logic Trump is using here.  I don't think Trump even knows what the word 'logic' means.  And it most certainly is not a good idea to refer to any country as a ----hole, regardless of whether it is true or not.  That is language the President should not be using to talk about anyone's place of residence.

Once again Trump opens his mouth and proceeds to directly insert his foot.  I'll never understand what goes on in that orange head of his.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 12, 2018, 06:20:46 AM
I mean, yeah, I'd rather bring in immigrants from Norway, too.  Or China, Japan, or Canada.

People from those countries simply are more likely to be high level contributing and productive members of our society than someone from Haiti, Zimbabwe, Afghanistan, ect..

That has nothing to do with race, it's a simple matter of fact.

Now, I don't think that is the logic Trump is using here.  I don't think Trump even knows what the word 'logic' means.  And it most certainly is not a good idea to refer to any country as a ----hole, regardless of whether it is true or not.  That is language the President should not be using to talk about anyone's place of residence.

Once again Trump opens his mouth and proceeds to directly insert his foot.  I'll never understand what goes on in that orange head of his.

Bit isn't it easy for s stable genius not to put his foot on his mouth?  He should be able to say that it's not that he wants immigrants from Norway, Japan, Canada and not from S-hole countries, its that he wants to attract more immigrants who are likely to make a positive contribution to the USA.  Now some might still be offended, but at least it accurately states his goal without sounding as though there is a racial preference. Easy.

But the circumstances around when he said it and who was present remains unclear to me.  It's an obnoxious statement regardless, but my guess is that worse things are said by politicians in private conversations.  Can someone illuminate me as to the context in which he made the statement and who (other than Dick Durbin) was there?


 
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 12, 2018, 06:54:37 AM
Quote
Also, apparently he wants more immigrants from Norway and less from the countries he insulted. Could it be most Norwegians are white?

I am going to ask you an honest question, would you want to move to Haiti or the countries in Africa he commented on?  BE HONEST!

Once, again, it was an insensitive and stupid thing to say that could have been better worded or even better left unsaid.    Pres. Trump does not have gaffes, he has like nuclear bombs that seem to be targeted right at the Social Justice Movement, part of me thinks this stuff is intentional and a smoke screen.

Guess what you're not talking about Robert Mueller today are you?

I for one favor skill-based immigration but race should not be a question asked on the form. 
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 07:32:54 AM
To me, it makes a huge difference that this was said privately (and was then leaked for political purposes).  Many, many of our Presidents have been crass in private.  Trump crosses that line publicly all the time, but he didnít here.

And, relatively speaking, many African countries, Haiti, etc. are crud holes. That doesnít make the people bad, but it does probably suggest that overall theyíre bad for our country.

None of you have ever disparaged a town / city / country? If I say that Trenton, Camden, Newark, etc., are crud holes, does that make me racist? 

Thereís a policy debate, but to me the language is pretty irrelevant.

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: IDreamCeltics on January 12, 2018, 08:08:42 AM
To me, it makes a huge difference that this was said privately (and was then leaked for political purposes).  Many, many of our Presidents have been crass in private.  Trump crosses that line publicly all the time, but he didnít here.

And, relatively speaking, many African countries, Haiti, etc. are crud holes. That doesnít make the people bad, but it does probably suggest that overall theyíre bad for our country.

None of you have ever disparaged a town / city / country? If I say that Trenton, Camden, Newark, etc., are crud holes, does that make me racist? 

Thereís a policy debate, but to me the language is pretty irrelevant.

I'm not sure how you feel about white Africans/Caribbean Islanders/New Jerseans of European descent so I can't really speak to whether or not your sentiment is racist, but it does appear ill-informed and ethnocentric.

Suggesting that overall people are bad for a country because of their place of origin is literally what Stalin and Hitler did.  You probably want to do a gut check when you start writing things that make you easy to lump in with those guys.

Many of the posters in this thread seem to believe all immigrants are unskilled, and untrained.  I don't know if this is how you feel, but I want to address this. 

The U.S. doesn't recognize degrees from universities in most developing nations.  When I went back to school to take a bunch of collegiate science courses (chemistries, physics, calculus, Anatomy and Physiology, Biology, etc) the majority of the students were from places like the Sudan, Somalia, Ruwanda, the Congo, Ethiopa, Cuba etc.  I was really surprised to learn that some of the best students in these classes were immigrants that already had degrees in these areas but had to get an "American" degree to be considered legitimate in their field even though they came to this country with higher level degrees and work experience.  They definitely came from countries our president would describe privately (though why he now thinks anything he says is private is beyond me) as sh#tholes.

So when you assume that immigrants are unskilled remember your entire educational/professional system is built to keep people out who haven't been funneled through it since they were very young.

Many immigrants who come here will have to earn the same degree a second time, and learn a 4th, 5th, or 6th language just to get a piece of that American pie that everyone keeps talking about.     

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 08:31:50 AM
To me, it makes a huge difference that this was said privately (and was then leaked for political purposes).  Many, many of our Presidents have been crass in private.  Trump crosses that line publicly all the time, but he didnít here.

And, relatively speaking, many African countries, Haiti, etc. are crud holes. That doesnít make the people bad, but it does probably suggest that overall theyíre bad for our country.

None of you have ever disparaged a town / city / country? If I say that Trenton, Camden, Newark, etc., are crud holes, does that make me racist? 

Thereís a policy debate, but to me the language is pretty irrelevant.

I'm not sure how you feel about white Africans/Caribbean Islanders/New Jerseans of European descent so I can't really speak to whether or not your sentiment is racist, but it does appear ill-informed and ethnocentric.

Suggesting that overall people are bad for a country because of their place of origin is literally what Stalin and Hitler did.  You probably want to do a gut check when you start writing things that make you easy to lump in with those guys.

Many of the posters in this thread seem to believe all immigrants are unskilled, and untrained.  I don't know if this is how you feel, but I want to address this. 

The U.S. doesn't recognize degrees from universities in most developing nations.  When I went back to school to take a bunch of collegiate science courses (chemistries, physics, calculus, Anatomy and Physiology, Biology, etc) the majority of the students were from places like the Sudan, Somalia, Ruwanda, the Congo, Ethiopa, Cuba etc.  I was really surprised to learn that some of the best students in these classes were immigrants that already had degrees in these areas but had to get an "American" degree to be considered legitimate in their field even though they came to this country with higher level degrees and work experience.  They definitely came from countries our president would describe privately (though why he now thinks anything he says is private is beyond me) as sh#tholes.

So when you assume that immigrants are unskilled remember your entire educational/professional system is built to keep people out who haven't been funneled through it since they were very young.

Many immigrants who come here will have to earn the same degree a second time, and learn a 4th, 5th, or 6th language just to get a piece of that American pie that everyone keeps talking about.     

Ill-informed and ethnocentric? I worked in Trenton. One of my primary clients (NJ Transit) was based out of Newark. I regularly practiced in Camden. All of them, by and large, are crap holes. That doesnít make the citizens bad people, but theyíre terrible places to work and live. Public education, infrastructure, violent crime, opportunity...  all are about as crappy as it gets.

If Iím getting a new neighbor it doesnít make me a racist to say, statistically, Iíd prefer somebody from Cherry Hill as opposed to Camden, or Lake Forest opposed to South Chicago. There are obviously high achievers and low achievers in all areas, but broadly not every neighborhood, city or country is in fact equal in terms of the quality of its immigrants.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: gift on January 12, 2018, 09:28:54 AM
I feel like people think that Trump will be defeated via a quantity of his errors and faults, when in reality opponents in American politics are generally defeated by one or a few major issues.

I'm qualifying here that I am not a Trump supporter because it sometimes seems necessary to do so. However, quite honestly I don't have a problem with every little thing that gets brought up about him. Opposition to Trump is absolutely guilty of overreaching and overreacting in the same cliched, reactionary ways as opponents to any other recent president. And I think by attacking Trump on the quantity of his errors, they are masking the quality of his errors and faults. By magnifying everything, his worst attributes aren't distinguished and the best arguments against him become tired by the time you reach them.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 10:00:06 AM
Trump:

Quote
The language used by me at the DACA meeting was tough, but this was not the language used. What was really tough was the outlandish proposal made - a big setback for DACA!

Quote
Never said anything derogatory about Haitians other than Haiti is, obviously, a very poor and troubled country. Never said ďtake them out.Ē Made up by Dems. I have a wonderful relationship with Haitians. Probably should record future meetings - unfortunately, no trust!

Why even deny it? Does anybody doubt he said it?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 12, 2018, 10:01:03 AM
To me, it makes a huge difference that this was said privately (and was then leaked for political purposes).  Many, many of our Presidents have been crass in private.  Trump crosses that line publicly all the time, but he didnít here.

And, relatively speaking, many African countries, Haiti, etc. are crud holes. That doesnít make the people bad, but it does probably suggest that overall theyíre bad for our country.

None of you have ever disparaged a town / city / country? If I say that Trenton, Camden, Newark, etc., are crud holes, does that make me racist? 

Thereís a policy debate, but to me the language is pretty irrelevant.

I'm not sure how you feel about white Africans/Caribbean Islanders/New Jerseans of European descent so I can't really speak to whether or not your sentiment is racist, but it does appear ill-informed and ethnocentric.

Suggesting that overall people are bad for a country because of their place of origin is literally what Stalin and Hitler did.  You probably want to do a gut check when you start writing things that make you easy to lump in with those guys.

Many of the posters in this thread seem to believe all immigrants are unskilled, and untrained.  I don't know if this is how you feel, but I want to address this. 

The U.S. doesn't recognize degrees from universities in most developing nations.  When I went back to school to take a bunch of collegiate science courses (chemistries, physics, calculus, Anatomy and Physiology, Biology, etc) the majority of the students were from places like the Sudan, Somalia, Ruwanda, the Congo, Ethiopa, Cuba etc.  I was really surprised to learn that some of the best students in these classes were immigrants that already had degrees in these areas but had to get an "American" degree to be considered legitimate in their field even though they came to this country with higher level degrees and work experience.  They definitely came from countries our president would describe privately (though why he now thinks anything he says is private is beyond me) as sh#tholes.

So when you assume that immigrants are unskilled remember your entire educational/professional system is built to keep people out who haven't been funneled through it since they were very young.

Many immigrants who come here will have to earn the same degree a second time, and learn a 4th, 5th, or 6th language just to get a piece of that American pie that everyone keeps talking about.     

African immigrants, who apparently were the target of the "****hole" smear, are better-educated overall than the American populace. There's an underlying fabric of stereotypes that gets a lot of people to take for granted that it must be the opposite.

And while I'm not keen on the Hitler/Stalin comparisons, the idea that national origin is inherently meritorious or demeritorious is one notch away from the idea that race is, and a slim notch at that. A truly merit-based system would ignore national origin entirely in favor of, y'know, merit. That's not what's being proposed nor what's being defended. 

And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries. 
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 10:10:52 AM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: triboy16f on January 12, 2018, 10:16:08 AM
Who carea about Trump the bonehead

He wont be re elected
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: More Banners on January 12, 2018, 10:27:08 AM
Who carea about Trump the bonehead

He wont be re elected

I'm expecting a primary, but will the republicans unite fast behind a challenger, or will there be a dozen splitting the votes again?  Would he win a primary?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 10:33:44 AM
Who carea about Trump the bonehead

He wont be re elected

I'm expecting a primary, but will the republicans unite fast behind a challenger, or will there be a dozen splitting the votes again?  Would he win a primary?

Heíll win the primary unless heís under indictment.  The qualified guys with a national organizationó Romney, Rubio, Kasich ó arenít going to excite primary voters.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Pucaccia on January 12, 2018, 10:42:59 AM
Trump will win re-election, he is doing too many good things for the country.  The Dems, don't have a good candidate.

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 12, 2018, 10:58:38 AM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?

This shtick isn't going to get you any more traction with me than it did last year.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 12, 2018, 10:58:56 AM
Would you want a lousy player from a craphole team on the Celtics.
It wouldn't make the Celtics better.

Kevin Garnett came from one of the crappiest organizations in the league.

Quote
To be competitive, we need the world's brightest, not someone who is going to sponge off the government.  We have plenty of them.  It has nothing to do with race.

African immigrants are already better educated than Americans as a whole, and despite the prevalent stereotypes immigrants overall contribute more to the system than they take out.

Quote
Canada and Australia have a merit based system.  Are they all racists?

Admissions based on national origin are not merit-based. National origin is irrelevant to a merit-based system, except from one specific set of perspectives on what characteristics have "merit".
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 11:07:09 AM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?

This shtick isn't going to get you any more traction with me than it did last year.

Oh, I know. Youíre a committed progressive.  Why should you care about intellectual integrity / consistency?  Youíre not here for a discussion, youíre here to spew poorly thought through talking points.

If Trumpís private comments are endangering Americans, then the politicians purposely leaking those comments are intentionally endangering Americans. That calculated action seems much more vile than any off the cuff remark made behind closed doors.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 11:12:31 AM
Jake Tapper suggesting that Trump was slightly misquoted:

https://mobile.twitter.com/jaketapper/status/951814037960085504
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 12, 2018, 11:24:55 AM
Jake Tapper suggesting that Trump was slightly misquoted:

https://mobile.twitter.com/jaketapper/status/951814037960085504
Lol...yeah, because that is so much better. Now Tapper has further confirmation but Trump is denying everything.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 12, 2018, 11:33:32 AM
US Ambassador to Panama has just resigned. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/12/us-ambassador-panama-resigns-saying-can-no-longer-serve-trump/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/12/us-ambassador-panama-resigns-saying-can-no-longer-serve-trump/)

EDIT: He's definitely resigned but mixed reports on whether this is a direct response to these specific comments or just general grievances with the admin. Altered it to reflect.


Rising GOP star and first Haitian-American member of Congress Mia Love is demanding Trump apologize to America and to the nations he insulted.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DTTGADAX0AAvBC3.jpg)
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: blink on January 12, 2018, 11:35:58 AM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?



This shtick isn't going to get you any more traction with me than it did last year.

Oh, I know. Youíre a committed progressive.  Why should you care about intellectual integrity / consistency?  Youíre not here for a discussion, youíre here to spew poorly thought through talking points.

If Trumpís private comments are endangering Americans, then the politicians purposely leaking those comments are intentionally endangering Americans. That calculated action seems much more vile than any off the cuff remark made behind closed doors.

So you would prefer to not have the public know these about these types of statements from the president?  I haven't heard anyone said this was a classified meeting, or that participants were asked to not talk about it.  My lord, if our president is spewing this type of bile, the country deserves to know.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on January 12, 2018, 11:36:11 AM
I see that ĒwantonĒ is the Word of the Day. ;D
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 12, 2018, 11:50:39 AM
I see that ĒwantonĒ is the Word of the Day. ;D

It beats yesterday's Word of the Day.  ;)
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: More Banners on January 12, 2018, 12:07:53 PM
His comments about other countries sending their worst suggests the oppressed in other countries are oppressed for a reason?  Or the disadvantaged are so due to an inherent flaw. Or they're criminals.

Yet this guy has apparently had as many as 4 criminals in his campaign, so far, with the investigation ongoing. At the very least, the guy has not kept good company.


Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Pucaccia on January 12, 2018, 12:14:02 PM
Serious Question!

If I say I don't want to live in certain parts of Chelsea, East Boston, or Roxbury because it's a S***hole, does that make me a racist?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 12, 2018, 12:15:38 PM
Serious Question!

If I say I don't want to live in certain parts of Chelsea, East Boston, or Roxbury because it's a S***hole, does that make me a racist?
You're completely disregarding the context in which he said the word.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Pucaccia on January 12, 2018, 12:21:00 PM
Serious Question!

If I say I don't want to live in certain parts of Chelsea, East Boston, or Roxbury because it's a S***hole, does that make me a racist?
You're completely disregarding the context in which he said the word.
I really don't think I am.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 12, 2018, 12:24:41 PM
So you would prefer to not have the public know these types of statements from the president?  I haven't heard anyone said this was a classified meeting, or that participants were asked to not talk about it.  My lord, if our president is spewing this type of bile, the country deserves to know.

Yeah, the notion that people finding out what the President does is a greater offense than him doing it is becoming very popular among apologists. With classified material there's at least an debate to be had, but for this kind of stuff it's completely morally bankrupt.


On a related note, this story from December about our extremely not-racist President complaining Haitians "all have AIDS" and Nigerians "will never go back to their huts" after seeing America seems freshly relevant:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/23/us/politics/trump-immigration.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/23/us/politics/trump-immigration.html)
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on January 12, 2018, 12:26:56 PM
I see that ĒwantonĒ is the Word of the Day. ;D

It beats yesterday's Word of the Day.  ;)

Touchť.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 12:33:04 PM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?



This shtick isn't going to get you any more traction with me than it did last year.

Oh, I know. Youíre a committed progressive.  Why should you care about intellectual integrity / consistency?  Youíre not here for a discussion, youíre here to spew poorly thought through talking points.

If Trumpís private comments are endangering Americans, then the politicians purposely leaking those comments are intentionally endangering Americans. That calculated action seems much more vile than any off the cuff remark made behind closed doors.

So you would prefer to not have the public know these about these types of statements from the president?  I haven't heard anyone said this was a classified meeting, or that participants were asked to not talk about it.  My lord, if our president is spewing this type of bile, the country deserves to know.

Eh. Iím not a Trump apologist, but this just isnít a big deal to me.

But no, if even one American is harmed due to this, then I donít think itís worth sharing. Itís an irrelevant comment. The question is, should we have a visa lottery or merit-based immigration? Trumpís comment presumes that the visa lottery is taking in less meritorious  immigrants due to lottery status. Is he wrong?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: indeedproceed on January 12, 2018, 12:33:27 PM
Serious Question!

If I say I don't want to live in certain parts of Chelsea, East Boston, or Roxbury because it's a S***hole, does that make me a racist?
You're completely disregarding the context in which he said the word.
I really don't think I am.

You are.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 12:44:30 PM
Serious Question!

If I say I don't want to live in certain parts of Chelsea, East Boston, or Roxbury because it's a S***hole, does that make me a racist?
You're completely disregarding the context in which he said the word.
I really don't think I am.

You are.

Add something to the conversation or move on, please. ďIím notĒ, ďYou areĒ doesnít accomplish anything.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 12, 2018, 01:11:34 PM
Mods modding mods. What hath Trump wrought.


Senator Tim Scott becomes 3rd Senator, 2nd GOP, to publicly confirm Trump's statements. Was not at meeting but was told by Lindsey Graham who so far has no comment.

https://www.postandcourier.com/politics/sen-tim-scott-trump-s-****hole-countries-comment-is-accurate/article_e99c2fba-f7a9-11e7-a381-d7950e17b81f.html? (https://www.postandcourier.com/politics/sen-tim-scott-trump-s-****hole-countries-comment-is-accurate/article_e99c2fba-f7a9-11e7-a381-d7950e17b81f.html?)

You'll need to fill in the asterisks to make the link work, as this sports blog has higher standards than the Presidency.


Former RNC Chair Michael Steele says Trump is a racist: "Yeah, I do (think he is a racist). At this point the evidence is incontrovertible. It's right there."

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/former-rnc-chairman-michael-steele-trump-is-racist/article/2645754 (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/former-rnc-chairman-michael-steele-trump-is-racist/article/2645754)
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: celticsclay on January 12, 2018, 01:30:44 PM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?



This shtick isn't going to get you any more traction with me than it did last year.

Oh, I know. Youíre a committed progressive.  Why should you care about intellectual integrity / consistency?  Youíre not here for a discussion, youíre here to spew poorly thought through talking points.

If Trumpís private comments are endangering Americans, then the politicians purposely leaking those comments are intentionally endangering Americans. That calculated action seems much more vile than any off the cuff remark made behind closed doors.

So you would prefer to not have the public know these about these types of statements from the president?  I haven't heard anyone said this was a classified meeting, or that participants were asked to not talk about it.  My lord, if our president is spewing this type of bile, the country deserves to know.

Eh. Iím not a Trump apologist, but this just isnít a big deal to me.

But no, if even one American is harmed due to this, then I donít think itís worth sharing. Itís an irrelevant comment. The question is, should we have a visa lottery or merit-based immigration? Trumpís comment presumes that the visa lottery is taking in less meritorious  immigrants due to lottery status. Is he wrong?

Roy whether you believe this actually harms anyone in America or not, at a minimum would you agree that there is some value in decorum from a president? At my company if a CEO or senior leadership made comments like this, even at an unofficial event, they would be let go. At some level Trump is supposed to represent us as a country and referring to entire other countries like he did, many would feel he isn't representing us well.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Pucaccia on January 12, 2018, 01:35:30 PM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?



This shtick isn't going to get you any more traction with me than it did last year.

Oh, I know. Youíre a committed progressive.  Why should you care about intellectual integrity / consistency?  Youíre not here for a discussion, youíre here to spew poorly thought through talking points.

If Trumpís private comments are endangering Americans, then the politicians purposely leaking those comments are intentionally endangering Americans. That calculated action seems much more vile than any off the cuff remark made behind closed doors.

So you would prefer to not have the public know these about these types of statements from the president?  I haven't heard anyone said this was a classified meeting, or that participants were asked to not talk about it.  My lord, if our president is spewing this type of bile, the country deserves to know.

Eh. Iím not a Trump apologist, but this just isnít a big deal to me.

But no, if even one American is harmed due to this, then I donít think itís worth sharing. Itís an irrelevant comment. The question is, should we have a visa lottery or merit-based immigration? Trumpís comment presumes that the visa lottery is taking in less meritorious  immigrants due to lottery status. Is he wrong?
Trump isn't wrong.  And Roy you are not wrong.  What Trump said isn't even bad.  I posted a question before but I will rephrase it. 
If I earned the right to live in a nice neighborhood and I say I don't want my street  to turn it into a S***hole like some parts of Chelsea, some parts of East Boston or some parts of Roxbury, does that make me a racist?
Is what I am asking out of line?  I don't think so. I want my street to stay nice.
That is what Trump is proposing. I agree with a merit system immigration policy.
Because Trump is doing well for the country, the haters are just grasping for anything.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: incoherent on January 12, 2018, 01:46:38 PM
My biggest problem with Trump is how unprofessional and dumb he sounds.

You could argue all day if he is right / wrong/ racist / or not racist. 

He has no idea how to intelligently articulate his message.  He makes us all look bad regardless of what his actual message is.  This is undeniable.


Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: celticsclay on January 12, 2018, 01:50:21 PM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?



This shtick isn't going to get you any more traction with me than it did last year.

Oh, I know. Youíre a committed progressive.  Why should you care about intellectual integrity / consistency?  Youíre not here for a discussion, youíre here to spew poorly thought through talking points.

If Trumpís private comments are endangering Americans, then the politicians purposely leaking those comments are intentionally endangering Americans. That calculated action seems much more vile than any off the cuff remark made behind closed doors.

So you would prefer to not have the public know these about these types of statements from the president?  I haven't heard anyone said this was a classified meeting, or that participants were asked to not talk about it.  My lord, if our president is spewing this type of bile, the country deserves to know.

Eh. Iím not a Trump apologist, but this just isnít a big deal to me.

But no, if even one American is harmed due to this, then I donít think itís worth sharing. Itís an irrelevant comment. The question is, should we have a visa lottery or merit-based immigration? Trumpís comment presumes that the visa lottery is taking in less meritorious  immigrants due to lottery status. Is he wrong?
Trump isn't wrong.  And Roy you are not wrong.  What Trump said isn't even bad.  I posted a question before but I will rephrase it. 
If I earned the right to live in a nice neighborhood and I say I don't want my street  to turn it into a S***hole like some parts of Chelsea, some parts of East Boston or some parts of Roxbury, does that make me a racist?
Is what I am asking out of line?  I don't think so. I want my street to stay nice.
That is what Trump is proposing. I agree with a merit system immigration policy.
Because Trump is doing well for the country, the haters are just grasping for anything.

A few things. If you are speaking to a few of your friends at the bar, this phrase isn't an issues at all. If you are in a position of leadership and speaking to people you work with, then yea, this would not be appropriate (and is an issue with this regardless of political affiliation). Furthermore, there is a difference between a neighborhood and a country in that countries provide someone's ethnicity (many people, including a coworker of mine, are salvadorians). Someone born and living in Chelsea is not a chelsea-ite that has to constantly write chelsea-ite on their college, job and visa applications. It would also be rare for that person to hear racial slurs specifically aimed at them just for being from chelsea. So that is another big difference.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 01:57:35 PM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?



This shtick isn't going to get you any more traction with me than it did last year.

Oh, I know. Youíre a committed progressive.  Why should you care about intellectual integrity / consistency?  Youíre not here for a discussion, youíre here to spew poorly thought through talking points.

If Trumpís private comments are endangering Americans, then the politicians purposely leaking those comments are intentionally endangering Americans. That calculated action seems much more vile than any off the cuff remark made behind closed doors.

So you would prefer to not have the public know these about these types of statements from the president?  I haven't heard anyone said this was a classified meeting, or that participants were asked to not talk about it.  My lord, if our president is spewing this type of bile, the country deserves to know.

Eh. Iím not a Trump apologist, but this just isnít a big deal to me.

But no, if even one American is harmed due to this, then I donít think itís worth sharing. Itís an irrelevant comment. The question is, should we have a visa lottery or merit-based immigration? Trumpís comment presumes that the visa lottery is taking in less meritorious  immigrants due to lottery status. Is he wrong?

Roy whether you believe this actually harms anyone in America or not, at a minimum would you agree that there is some value in decorum from a president? At my company if a CEO or senior leadership made comments like this, even at an unofficial event, they would be let go. At some level Trump is supposed to represent us as a country and referring to entire other countries like he did, many would feel he isn't representing us well.

Publicly, yes. Privately, Iíve found most powerful men to be vulgar. Among Presidents thatís certainly true.  Obama was a huge swearer.  LBJ, Nixon. Trump ups the bar because heís often publicly disgraceful.  But, using a crass but fairly accurate descriptor for certain countries behind closed doors doesnít bother me.

I think this was leaked for pure political purposes, so that the Dems share no blame in immigration reform.

Reinstate DACA, institute merit-based immigration, limit chain immigration, build a wall, and offer some level of amnesty.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 12, 2018, 02:00:37 PM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?



This shtick isn't going to get you any more traction with me than it did last year.

Oh, I know. Youíre a committed progressive.  Why should you care about intellectual integrity / consistency?  Youíre not here for a discussion, youíre here to spew poorly thought through talking points.

If Trumpís private comments are endangering Americans, then the politicians purposely leaking those comments are intentionally endangering Americans. That calculated action seems much more vile than any off the cuff remark made behind closed doors.

So you would prefer to not have the public know these about these types of statements from the president?  I haven't heard anyone said this was a classified meeting, or that participants were asked to not talk about it.  My lord, if our president is spewing this type of bile, the country deserves to know.

Eh. Iím not a Trump apologist, but this just isnít a big deal to me.

But no, if even one American is harmed due to this, then I donít think itís worth sharing. Itís an irrelevant comment. The question is, should we have a visa lottery or merit-based immigration? Trumpís comment presumes that the visa lottery is taking in less meritorious  immigrants due to lottery status. Is he wrong?
Trump isn't wrong.  And Roy you are not wrong.  What Trump said isn't even bad.  I posted a question before but I will rephrase it. 
If I earned the right to live in a nice neighborhood and I say I don't want my street  to turn it into a S***hole like some parts of Chelsea, some parts of East Boston or some parts of Roxbury, does that make me a racist?
Is what I am asking out of line?  I don't think so. I want my street to stay nice.
That is what Trump is proposing. I agree with a merit system immigration policy.
Because Trump is doing well for the country, the haters are just grasping for anything.

A few things. If you are speaking to a few of your friends at the bar, this phrase isn't an issues at all. If you are in a position of leadership and speaking to people you work with, then yea, this would not be appropriate (and is an issue with this regardless of political affiliation). Furthermore, there is a difference between a neighborhood and a country in that countries provide someone's ethnicity (many people, including a coworker of mine, are salvadorians). Someone born and living in Chelsea is not a chelsea-ite that has to constantly write chelsea-ite on their college, job and visa applications. It would also be rare for that person to hear racial slurs specifically aimed at them just for being from chelsea. So that is another big difference.
Exactly the context I was talking about. I thought it fairly obvious to figure out.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: celticsclay on January 12, 2018, 02:14:52 PM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?



This shtick isn't going to get you any more traction with me than it did last year.

Oh, I know. Youíre a committed progressive.  Why should you care about intellectual integrity / consistency?  Youíre not here for a discussion, youíre here to spew poorly thought through talking points.

If Trumpís private comments are endangering Americans, then the politicians purposely leaking those comments are intentionally endangering Americans. That calculated action seems much more vile than any off the cuff remark made behind closed doors.

So you would prefer to not have the public know these about these types of statements from the president?  I haven't heard anyone said this was a classified meeting, or that participants were asked to not talk about it.  My lord, if our president is spewing this type of bile, the country deserves to know.

Eh. Iím not a Trump apologist, but this just isnít a big deal to me.

But no, if even one American is harmed due to this, then I donít think itís worth sharing. Itís an irrelevant comment. The question is, should we have a visa lottery or merit-based immigration? Trumpís comment presumes that the visa lottery is taking in less meritorious  immigrants due to lottery status. Is he wrong?

Roy whether you believe this actually harms anyone in America or not, at a minimum would you agree that there is some value in decorum from a president? At my company if a CEO or senior leadership made comments like this, even at an unofficial event, they would be let go. At some level Trump is supposed to represent us as a country and referring to entire other countries like he did, many would feel he isn't representing us well.

Publicly, yes. Privately, Iíve found most powerful men to be vulgar. Among Presidents thatís certainly true.  Obama was a huge swearer.  LBJ, Nixon. Trump ups the bar because heís often publicly disgraceful.  But, using a crass but fairly accurate descriptor for certain countries behind closed doors doesnít bother me.

I think this was leaked for pure political purposes, so that the Dems share no blame in immigration reform.

Reinstate DACA, institute merit-based immigration, limit chain immigration, build a wall, and offer some level of amnesty.

What is your definition of public versus private though. If he is home with his wife (if they lived together) and say this, then, yea sure, that is private. I would say he could be a vulgar comment he even makes this to 2 or 3 of his buddies on the golf course. This was a comment made in front of a large group of people while he was working in a professional capacity (including in front of some people that are not fans of his). Do you really view that as a private comment just because it was an open meeting on the record? I would say there is a huge difference between that and him with some friends out of business. I would also argue it definitely is not appropriate for that reason regardless of political leaning or whether it is viewed as racist (which I also happen to think it is, but don't need to debate it for hours).
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 02:48:46 PM
Quote
And that's without getting into the implications of the President insulting foreign nations that we might need help from for our military or foreign policy, and the national origins of millions of Americans. Or wantonly endangering Americans residing in those countries.

Do you feel that the Democrat who leaked the private, closed door discussions was similarly ďwantonĒ?



This shtick isn't going to get you any more traction with me than it did last year.

Oh, I know. Youíre a committed progressive.  Why should you care about intellectual integrity / consistency?  Youíre not here for a discussion, youíre here to spew poorly thought through talking points.

If Trumpís private comments are endangering Americans, then the politicians purposely leaking those comments are intentionally endangering Americans. That calculated action seems much more vile than any off the cuff remark made behind closed doors.

So you would prefer to not have the public know these about these types of statements from the president?  I haven't heard anyone said this was a classified meeting, or that participants were asked to not talk about it.  My lord, if our president is spewing this type of bile, the country deserves to know.

Eh. Iím not a Trump apologist, but this just isnít a big deal to me.

But no, if even one American is harmed due to this, then I donít think itís worth sharing. Itís an irrelevant comment. The question is, should we have a visa lottery or merit-based immigration? Trumpís comment presumes that the visa lottery is taking in less meritorious  immigrants due to lottery status. Is he wrong?

Roy whether you believe this actually harms anyone in America or not, at a minimum would you agree that there is some value in decorum from a president? At my company if a CEO or senior leadership made comments like this, even at an unofficial event, they would be let go. At some level Trump is supposed to represent us as a country and referring to entire other countries like he did, many would feel he isn't representing us well.

Publicly, yes. Privately, Iíve found most powerful men to be vulgar. Among Presidents thatís certainly true.  Obama was a huge swearer.  LBJ, Nixon. Trump ups the bar because heís often publicly disgraceful.  But, using a crass but fairly accurate descriptor for certain countries behind closed doors doesnít bother me.

I think this was leaked for pure political purposes, so that the Dems share no blame in immigration reform.

Reinstate DACA, institute merit-based immigration, limit chain immigration, build a wall, and offer some level of amnesty.

What is your definition of public versus private though. If he is home with his wife (if they lived together) and say this, then, yea sure, that is private. I would say he could be a vulgar comment he even makes this to 2 or 3 of his buddies on the golf course. This was a comment made in front of a large group of people while he was working in a professional capacity (including in front of some people that are not fans of his). Do you really view that as a private comment just because it was an open meeting on the record? I would say there is a huge difference between that and him with some friends out of business. I would also argue it definitely is not appropriate for that reason regardless of political leaning or whether it is viewed as racist (which I also happen to think it is, but don't need to debate it for hours).

Itís a valid opinion. I just disagree. Iíve been in a ton of meetings with government officials, heads of multi-national construction companies, and some of the largest firms on the East Coast. These people talk like theyíre drinking in a dive bar.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 12, 2018, 03:03:45 PM
Also, in case Trump really wondered why we can't get any Norwegians, that's easy to explain:

Norway has single-payer healthcare system, subsidized childcare, paid maternity and paternity leave, top notch public transport system and has been on top of the human development index rankings for a while.

I'm not sure why Trump is so surprised, most Norwegians would actually be taking a downgrade if they chose to move to the US.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 03:24:54 PM
Question: is there a difference between calling a country a ď[crap]holeĒ vs a ď[crap] showĒ

Iím asking for a friend.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 12, 2018, 03:32:42 PM
Question: is there a difference between calling a country a ď[crap]holeĒ vs a ď[crap] showĒ

Iím asking for a friend.

Would that friend be Obama who referred to Lybia in this manner?

MSM pushing the globalist agenda....
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Emmette Bryant on January 12, 2018, 03:51:54 PM
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-s-history-breaking-decorum-remarks-race-ethnicity-n837181
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 12, 2018, 04:31:57 PM
Question: is there a difference between calling a country a ď[crap]holeĒ vs a ď[crap] showĒ

Iím asking for a friend.
Crapshow almost always describes events. Craphole almost always describes a place.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Quetzalcoatl on January 12, 2018, 04:52:05 PM
In other news today, Trump during an intelligence meeting called out a "pretty Korean woman" and started harrassing her in the middle of it: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/12/trump-analyst-of-korean-heritage-should-negotiate-with-north-korea-nbc.html

Quote
President Donald Trump suggested in the Oval Office that a "pretty Korean" analyst's ethnicity should qualify her for negotiating with North Korea on behalf of the United States, NBC News reported Friday.

The woman, an intelligence analyst who had visited the White House to brief Trump on an impending hostage situation in Pakistan, was asked where "your people" were from by the president after multiple attempts to learn her ethnicity, sources told NBC.

After the woman answered that her parents are Korean, Trump reportedly suggested to another advisor in the room that the "pretty Korean lady" should be negotiating with North Korea.

[Edited. The first part of your post is tangentially on topic, but the latter half wasnít. -RH]
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: celticsclay on January 12, 2018, 04:56:40 PM
Question: is there a difference between calling a country a ď[crap]holeĒ vs a ď[crap] showĒ

Iím asking for a friend.

Hole is a probably a bit worse, because show is more saying something is completely out of control with a less negative connotation than hole. Neither is appropriate for a president to describe another country though.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 04:59:48 PM
Question: is there a difference between calling a country a ď[crap]holeĒ vs a ď[crap] showĒ

Iím asking for a friend.
Crapshow almost always describes events. Craphole almost always describes a place.

Would, for instance, saying ďDorchester is a crap showĒ be any better or worse than ďDorchester is a crap holeĒ.

I donít see a huge distinction. Both are a bit vulgar, neither is on its surface racist.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 12, 2018, 05:04:56 PM
Question: is there a difference between calling a country a ď[crap]holeĒ vs a ď[crap] showĒ

Iím asking for a friend.
Crapshow almost always describes events. Craphole almost always describes a place.

Would, for instance, saying ďDorchester is a crap showĒ be any better or worse than ďDorchester is a crap holeĒ.

I donít see a huge distinction. Both are a bit vulgar, neither is on its surface racist.
Obama used his term to describe the happenings and situation created in Libya by the UK. Trump used his term to describe the countries themselves. In context its a big difference. Neither vulgar term should be used by a President in an open forum.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: celticsclay on January 12, 2018, 05:25:33 PM
Roy,

Do you disagree with any of this:

"This summer, I went to Kigali, and Nairobi and Lagos, and I went to Kampala and Abidjan and Dakar and Johannesburg and I saw great cities, and great people," Ujiri told ESPN on Friday. "And I went to visit the refugee camp in Dadaab, and I met good people and good families with plenty of hope. If those places are being referred to as ****holes, go visit those places, and go meet those people."

"I don't think it's fair, and I don't think it's what inspiring leadership can be. What sense of hope are we giving people if you are calling where they live -- and where they're from -- a ****hole?

"I've spent a lot of time in the United States and Canada and I am grateful for the opportunities that I've been given by people, and the game of basketball, and the NBA. As leaders, I think we have to give people in many places a chance to have success, not continue to put those people down.

"We have to inspire people and give them a sense of hope. We need to bring people along, not ridicule and tear them down. This cannot be the message that we accept from the leader of the free world.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22062684/raptors-president-masai-ujiri-criticizes-president-donald-trump-reported-remark

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 12, 2018, 05:29:02 PM
Serious Question!

If I say I don't want to live in certain parts of Chelsea, East Boston, or Roxbury because it's a S***hole, does that make me a racist?

I don't think it makes you a racist.  And BTW Trump's comment (in and of itself) probably does not make him racist.  Those who call him racist are generally looking at a pattern of racially charged/insensitive remarks.  I don't believe Trump is a true racist (ie, one who uses power to consciously discriminate or oppress based on a person's race).   I think he is impulsive and jumps quickly at times to stereotypic conclusions.  Thus, he gives fuel to the fire to those who consider him racist.

That said, there are a few important distinctions that make your hypothetical comment different contextually than Trump's comment.  The most important being, simply, he is the POTUS and you are a Cblog poster (not to diminish the importance of that).   The things that he says are reflective of the country and he needs to be sensitive to American citizens and those around the world who come from these "s-holes" and yet are productive citizens.   2nd, his statement disparages predominantly  black/brown countries while essentially praising a fairly homogenously white country.  I admit it's "optics" to some extent in that, indeed, the specific country he refers to (Haiti) and some of the countries he included among African nations are generally poor. But it negates the reality that good, smart, productive and in some cases, quite desperate people seek a better life in America regardless of country of origin.   Probably better to show some sensitivity to people who live under difficult conditions and perhaps view America as a place where some people from those countries have thrived and contributed.

My guess is that when you call Roxbury, East Boston or Chelsea S-holes and by implication you disparage (in the Trump metaphor -- "we don't want you here") those who live there -- my guess is that even those town inhabitants or observers that understand your characterization might be very displeased with the blanket negativity of it.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kiwiceltic on January 12, 2018, 05:44:41 PM
From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.

Except Norway is one of the most developed countries in the world.

To quote the great Patriot Tucker Carlson

"Last year we took in 23,000 from El Salvador , we took in 404 from Norway, so we overwhelmingly  give advantages to extreme poverty countries, what effect does that have on the poverty rate in this country?"

According to the Center of Immigration studies immigrants from central and South American countries, the rate of welfare use(at least 1 program) is 73%

From south Asia, a non white region, it's 17%.


Guess it's all about white power eh?

Hang on a second.... the US did not "take in" 404 people from Norway, those people probably immigrated for employment reasons. Do you actually think those Norwegians relocated to the USA for a better quality of life?... From a place that is regularly voted one of the top countries to live in the world... I don't think so.

Immigration is generally driven by people wanting a better life for themselves and their families, of course the majority of immigrants to the USA are going to come from less fortunate or war-torn countries. Of course those people are going to need help from the welfare system, they're coming into the country with next to nothing
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 12, 2018, 05:50:47 PM
From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.

Except Norway is one of the most developed countries in the world.

To quote the great Patriot Tucker Carlson

"Last year we took in 23,000 from El Salvador , we took in 404 from Norway, so we overwhelmingly  give advantages to extreme poverty countries, what effect does that have on the poverty rate in this country?"

According to the Center of Immigration studies immigrants from central and South American countries, the rate of welfare use(at least 1 program) is 73%

From south Asia, a non white region, it's 17%.


Guess it's all about white power eh?

Hang on a second.... the US did not "take in" 404 people from Norway, those people probably immigrated for employment reasons. Do you actually think those Norwegians relocated to the USA for a better quality of life?... From a place that is regularly voted one of the top countries to live in the world... I don't think so.

Immigration is generally driven by people wanting a better life for themselves and their families, of course the majority of immigrants to the USA are going to come from less fortunate or war-torn countries. Of course those people are going to need help from the welfare system, they're coming into the country with next to nothing

So let's ignore all the poverty and violence in Chi, Baltimore, Los Angeles ( ever been to skid row?), and all the other Democratic run cities that have contributed to the squalor in these cities.

Instead, let's bring in hundreds of thousands of low skilled workers to compete with our low skilled workers, give them benefits , and call it diversity.

What a joke.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 06:03:34 PM
Roy,

Do you disagree with any of this:

"This summer, I went to Kigali, and Nairobi and Lagos, and I went to Kampala and Abidjan and Dakar and Johannesburg and I saw great cities, and great people," Ujiri told ESPN on Friday. "And I went to visit the refugee camp in Dadaab, and I met good people and good families with plenty of hope. If those places are being referred to as ****holes, go visit those places, and go meet those people."

"I don't think it's fair, and I don't think it's what inspiring leadership can be. What sense of hope are we giving people if you are calling where they live -- and where they're from -- a ****hole?

"I've spent a lot of time in the United States and Canada and I am grateful for the opportunities that I've been given by people, and the game of basketball, and the NBA. As leaders, I think we have to give people in many places a chance to have success, not continue to put those people down.

"We have to inspire people and give them a sense of hope. We need to bring people along, not ridicule and tear them down. This cannot be the message that we accept from the leader of the free world.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22062684/raptors-president-masai-ujiri-criticizes-president-donald-trump-reported-remark

I disagree with the notion that Johannesburg is not a crap hole. My sister-in-law is from there. Iíve been there. Itís a dirty, impoverished area. There isnít a house in the city that doesnít have gates surrounding it and bars on the windows. 

Great people, yes, many of them. Great city? No way. The city is corrupt , dangerous, filled with squalor.  I can share plenty of experiences.

I do think that inspiration is a positive thing, but at the same time, itís not our job at this point to take care of the worldís poor. We already canít take care of the folks we have here.

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 12, 2018, 06:31:15 PM
From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.

Except Norway is one of the most developed countries in the world.

To quote the great Patriot Tucker Carlson

"Last year we took in 23,000 from El Salvador , we took in 404 from Norway, so we overwhelmingly  give advantages to extreme poverty countries, what effect does that have on the poverty rate in this country?"

According to the Center of Immigration studies immigrants from central and South American countries, the rate of welfare use(at least 1 program) is 73%

From south Asia, a non white region, it's 17%.


Guess it's all about white power eh?

Hang on a second.... the US did not "take in" 404 people from Norway, those people probably immigrated for employment reasons. Do you actually think those Norwegians relocated to the USA for a better quality of life?... From a place that is regularly voted one of the top countries to live in the world... I don't think so.

Immigration is generally driven by people wanting a better life for themselves and their families, of course the majority of immigrants to the USA are going to come from less fortunate or war-torn countries. Of course those people are going to need help from the welfare system, they're coming into the country with next to nothing

So let's ignore all the poverty and violence in Chi, Baltimore, Los Angeles ( ever been to skid row?), and all the other Democratic run cities that have contributed to the squalor in these cities.

Instead, let's bring in hundreds of thousands of low skilled workers to compete with our low skilled workers, give them benefits , and call it diversity.

What a joke.

Good to know you want to work at helping those already impoverished and living amid violence in the USA.  That's something most people should be able to agree on.  Pretty bad job so far by everyone who has attempted to make it better.  Since neither laissez-faire approaches nor government handouts have solved it, my guess is that no one really knows the answer -- but comprehensive approaches are probably needed.  Complicating things by adding to the numbers of disadvantaged Americans doesn't make much sense.   But ignoring the value of and history of immigration is also not smart (or right) in my opinion.  Immigration reform is needed and we should be cautious about who comes here, while our POTUS should be smart enough not to make entry a litmus test having to do with race, religion or country of origin.  Anyway... change is needed but it is complicated and stereotyping, hyperbolizing and marginalizing the perspectives of others probably is a good road to status quo.       
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kiwiceltic on January 12, 2018, 06:34:56 PM
From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.

Except Norway is one of the most developed countries in the world.

To quote the great Patriot Tucker Carlson

"Last year we took in 23,000 from El Salvador , we took in 404 from Norway, so we overwhelmingly  give advantages to extreme poverty countries, what effect does that have on the poverty rate in this country?"

According to the Center of Immigration studies immigrants from central and South American countries, the rate of welfare use(at least 1 program) is 73%

From south Asia, a non white region, it's 17%.


Guess it's all about white power eh?

Hang on a second.... the US did not "take in" 404 people from Norway, those people probably immigrated for employment reasons. Do you actually think those Norwegians relocated to the USA for a better quality of life?... From a place that is regularly voted one of the top countries to live in the world... I don't think so.

Immigration is generally driven by people wanting a better life for themselves and their families, of course the majority of immigrants to the USA are going to come from less fortunate or war-torn countries. Of course those people are going to need help from the welfare system, they're coming into the country with next to nothing

So let's ignore all the poverty and violence in Chi, Baltimore, Los Angeles ( ever been to skid row?), and all the other Democratic run cities that have contributed to the squalor in these cities.

Instead, let's bring in hundreds of thousands of low skilled workers to compete with our low skilled workers, give them benefits , and call it diversity.

What a joke.

Are you saying that the poverty and violence in all those cities is solely driven by immigrants? Do you think if you removed those immigrants from the equation that all those neighborhoods would magically lift themselves above the poverty line??
Believe me the problems in those areas stretch far beyond immigration.

I'm just curious here, but have you actually spent much time travelling outside the USA? I'm not talking about a holiday in Cabo, actually travelling?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 12, 2018, 06:48:33 PM
From some of the responses here it looks like the narrative being pushed to excuse yet another display of bigoted ignorance by the President of the United States is "it's actually about skills/merit-based immigration"

Problem is, dude said he preferred immigrants from places like Norway. Being from Norway or demographically similar places is not a skill.  And it's only a merit from one specific set of perspectives. Guess what we call those.

Except Norway is one of the most developed countries in the world.

To quote the great Patriot Tucker Carlson

"Last year we took in 23,000 from El Salvador , we took in 404 from Norway, so we overwhelmingly  give advantages to extreme poverty countries, what effect does that have on the poverty rate in this country?"

According to the Center of Immigration studies immigrants from central and South American countries, the rate of welfare use(at least 1 program) is 73%

From south Asia, a non white region, it's 17%.


Guess it's all about white power eh?

Hang on a second.... the US did not "take in" 404 people from Norway, those people probably immigrated for employment reasons. Do you actually think those Norwegians relocated to the USA for a better quality of life?... From a place that is regularly voted one of the top countries to live in the world... I don't think so.

Immigration is generally driven by people wanting a better life for themselves and their families, of course the majority of immigrants to the USA are going to come from less fortunate or war-torn countries. Of course those people are going to need help from the welfare system, they're coming into the country with next to nothing

So let's ignore all the poverty and violence in Chi, Baltimore, Los Angeles ( ever been to skid row?), and all the other Democratic run cities that have contributed to the squalor in these cities.

Instead, let's bring in hundreds of thousands of low skilled workers to compete with our low skilled workers, give them benefits , and call it diversity.

What a joke.

Are you saying that the poverty and violence in all those cities is solely driven by immigrants? Do you think if you removed those immigrants from the equation that all those neighborhoods would magically lift themselves above the poverty line??
Believe me the problems in those areas stretch far beyond immigration.

I'm just curious here, but have you actually spent much time travelling outside the USA? I'm not talking about a holiday in Cabo, actually travelling?

I'm not saying that at all about immigrants being the main cause of the problems in these big cities. Its mainly the policies of these cities. They have contributed to the break up of the family in many ways.

I'm not going to go into details because I will either get my post deleted or be called racist.

#1984
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Vox_Populi on January 12, 2018, 07:08:10 PM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: A Future of Stevens on January 12, 2018, 07:12:49 PM
I've tried to stay out of this thread, and I refuse to get into any of the above. But this whole new saga makes me ashamed.

Yes our country has problems, but overall America is a pretty great opportunity for a large portion of those born here. And while some people don't take advantage of that, others flourish. Yet this president continuously does and says things that represent this country in a horrible light.

Say what you will about any previous president, but they never made me ashamed to be part of this country. He does.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 12, 2018, 07:25:10 PM
Instead, let's bring in hundreds of thousands of low skilled workers to compete with our low skilled workers, give them benefits , and call it diversity.
The US does, in fact, need more low-skilled labor. This is a pretty well established economic fact.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/08/more-unskilled-workers-please/
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 12, 2018, 07:39:29 PM
Quote
Yes our country has problems, but overall America is a pretty great opportunity for a large portion of those born here. And while some people don't take advantage of that, others flourish. Yet this president continuously does and says things that represent this country in a horrible light.

As a country with have had a lot of issues with race since our beginning.   No country is perfect and none will ever be perfect.  We have good presidents and bad presidents.   I don't think Pres. Trump nor Pres. Obama at the end of the day when history judges them will be good presidents.

A lot of people blame colonialism for the areas named by Trump as a reason for all the problems.  I don't think this is the case because some nations have done very well post colonialism.  I think as long as people are looking for blame they are not looking for solutions.

I think this thread illustrates that some people will defend what he says and some people will react to anything he says negatively. 

Quote
Say what you will about any previous president, but they never made me ashamed to be part of this country.

Spare me the hyperbole.   If you know enough about history there are plenty of presidents that have done shameful things.  As bad as this was this is nothing compared to the Trail of Tears.  It was a dumb thing to say and insensitive but it did not lead to people getting killed or genocide.   That is the thing I find most amusing about a lot of this threads is the drama that people act like Pres. Trump is the most evil person in history.   He's not and its not even close but its clear that some people feel that way no matter how misguided they are.   He is jerk, bombastic and inherently dishonest.   Pres. Trump can be embarrassing for sure. 

Note I am not defending simply pointing out that some people judgement in this matter is pretty out sync with history.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 07:47:22 PM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 12, 2018, 07:58:49 PM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.
Depends on who is providing the definition of "similar circumstances".
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 12, 2018, 08:21:42 PM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.
Depends on who is providing the definition of "similar circumstances".
Clearly
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 12, 2018, 08:52:23 PM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.
Depends on who is providing the definition of "similar circumstances".

The bulk of these "similar circumstances" seems to have taken place when I was in high school so I'd just like to apologize to whoever was monitoring me for the places I was going online at the time.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 12, 2018, 09:05:12 PM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.
Depends on who is providing the definition of "similar circumstances".

The bulk of these "similar circumstances" seems to have taken place when I was in high school so I'd just like to apologize to whoever was monitoring me for the places I was going online at the time.

Congrats on your recent high school graduation. Class of 2016?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on January 12, 2018, 09:29:04 PM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I think it's a natural human tendency. If someone can show that "the other side" has been guilty of the same thing (or at least something similar to what's now being alleged), that constitutes vindication in the opinion of the individual.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: SCeltic34 on January 12, 2018, 09:32:50 PM
I'm not going to get too much into the arguments on here because let's be honest - nobody is going to convince another to change their stance about Trump at this point.

But a few thoughts:

If a liberal politician, let's say a Democratic governor of a blue-leaning state, said something demeaning about poorly-educated, low-skilled Caucasians living in rural parts of the state - perhaps "why would we want these people from a ___hole part of the state with no skills to come here to work?", essentially insinuating that they're lesser people because they're poor and have nothing to offer -  many of these rural Trump supporters and the right-wing media would be absolutely livid.  As well they should be.  Rural conservatives absolutely loathe being looked down upon by "coastal elites" and others.  But alas, by defending Trump they fail to see the double standard. To say such a generalized, inaccurate, and despicable comment is completely disgraceful and completely indefensible, no matter who you are.  This seems to come standard with Trump, however, so no surprises here.

"In regards to Senator Durbinís accusation, we do not recall the president saying these comments specifically..." - Senator Cotton and Senator Purdue.  Please.  Like anyone would ever forget such inflammatory comments during a senatorial meeting.  Your lies are just as bad as Trump's denial of what he said.

Finally, I'd like to revisit a remark by James Comey: "Lordy, I hope there are tapes".  Alright there probably aren't any tapes, but imagine how powerful that soundbyte would be in the upcoming midterms and 2020.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 12, 2018, 09:46:33 PM
I'm not going to get too much into the arguments on here because let's be honest - nobody is going to convince another to change their stance about Trump at this point.

But a few thoughts:

If a liberal politician, let's say a Democratic governor of a blue-leaning state, said something demeaning about poorly-educated, low-skilled Caucasians living in rural parts of the state - perhaps "why would we want these people from a ___hole part of the state with no skills to come here to work?", essentially insinuating that they're lesser people because they're poor and have nothing to offer -  many of these rural Trump supporters and the right-wing media would be absolutely livid.  As well they should be.  Rural conservatives absolutely loathe being looked down upon by "coastal elites" and others.  But alas, by defending Trump they fail to see the double standard. To say such a generalized, inaccurate, and despicable comment is completely disgraceful and completely indefensible, no matter who you are.  This seems to come standard with Trump, however, so no surprises here.

"In regards to Senator Durbinís accusation, we do not recall the president saying these comments specifically..." - Senator Cotton and Senator Purdue.  Please.  Like anyone would ever forget such inflammatory comments during a senatorial meeting.  Your lies are just as bad as Trump's denial of what he said.

Finally, I'd like to revisit a remark by James Comey: "Lordy, I hope there are tapes".  Alright they're probably aren't any tapes, but imagine how powerful that soundbyte would be in the upcoming midterms and 2020.

Actually Liberals have been saying derogatory things continuously

Hillary " Black men are super predators "

Hillary " basket of deplorables"

Bernie " white people don't know what it's like to be poor

I could go on....

Oh Lordy, James Comey is just a swell all American boy that leaked to the media to get a special council against Trump .

Oh Lordy, James Comey the choir boy who exonerated Hillary before ever even interviewing her

Oh lordy
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: SCeltic34 on January 12, 2018, 10:47:52 PM
I'm not going to get too much into the arguments on here because let's be honest - nobody is going to convince another to change their stance about Trump at this point.

But a few thoughts:

If a liberal politician, let's say a Democratic governor of a blue-leaning state, said something demeaning about poorly-educated, low-skilled Caucasians living in rural parts of the state - perhaps "why would we want these people from a ___hole part of the state with no skills to come here to work?", essentially insinuating that they're lesser people because they're poor and have nothing to offer -  many of these rural Trump supporters and the right-wing media would be absolutely livid.  As well they should be.  Rural conservatives absolutely loathe being looked down upon by "coastal elites" and others.  But alas, by defending Trump they fail to see the double standard. To say such a generalized, inaccurate, and despicable comment is completely disgraceful and completely indefensible, no matter who you are.  This seems to come standard with Trump, however, so no surprises here.

"In regards to Senator Durbinís accusation, we do not recall the president saying these comments specifically..." - Senator Cotton and Senator Purdue.  Please.  Like anyone would ever forget such inflammatory comments during a senatorial meeting.  Your lies are just as bad as Trump's denial of what he said.

Finally, I'd like to revisit a remark by James Comey: "Lordy, I hope there are tapes".  Alright they're probably aren't any tapes, but imagine how powerful that soundbyte would be in the upcoming midterms and 2020.

Actually Liberals have been saying derogatory things continuously

Hillary " Black men are super predators "

Hillary " basket of deplorables"

Bernie " white people don't know what it's like to be poor

I could go on....

Oh Lordy, James Comey is just a swell all American boy that leaked to the media to get a special council against Trump .

Oh Lordy, James Comey the choir boy who exonerated Hillary before ever even interviewing her

Oh lordy

Whataboutisms.  Meh.  Rarely does the topic at hand get addressed.

The Comey comment was made in jest, though I guess that's difficult to tell on the internet.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: TheisTheisBaby on January 12, 2018, 10:53:20 PM
He called a bunch of crapholes what they are....crapholes.  He didn't call the people from there anything.  Was it insensitive?  Yes.  Was it racist like the left want people to think?  No.  And let's be honest, he could cure Cancer and people would say "yeah well why didn't he cure AIDS?"  So he's probably gonna continue to be a 70 year old spoiled child on Twitter and say whatever he wants. 
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: byennie on January 12, 2018, 11:56:08 PM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.

Natural, maybe, but it needs to be called for what it is in a political debate: totally irrelevant. It's literally a logical fallacy in the most formal sense- "tu quoque". Now popularly know as "whataboutism". Of course, these days I'm an elitist if I get too debate-team-y on the Internet.

Both sides do it, of course, but I find special irony when the personal responsibility advocates make it a go-to move. God forbid the POTUS be judged on his own merits.

We teach kids on the playground that "he started it" or "he did it first" aren't valid excuses, and yet, it's in practically everything political thread like clockwork. Sigh.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 12, 2018, 11:56:15 PM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.
Depends on who is providing the definition of "similar circumstances".

The bulk of these "similar circumstances" seems to have taken place when I was in high school so I'd just like to apologize to whoever was monitoring me for the places I was going online at the time.

Congrats on your recent high school graduation. Class of 2016?

No, I graduated high school in the 90s. 2016 was the year I went from correctly identifying Donald Trump as a white supremacist charlatan to carrying water for him by incessantly whatabouting Bill Clinton in a forum supposedly about current events. Unless Iím muddling things up somehow.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 13, 2018, 12:06:17 AM
Back on topic, in yet another headscratching coincidence prominent white supremacists are once again very happy with the President's comments and believe they indicate he's on their side.

Warning: lots of racist language (https://www.adl.org/blog/white-supremacists-praise-trumps-inflammatory-immigration-remarks)
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: byennie on January 13, 2018, 12:11:44 AM
I'm not going to get too much into the arguments on here because let's be honest - nobody is going to convince another to change their stance about Trump at this point.

But a few thoughts:

If a liberal politician, let's say a Democratic governor of a blue-leaning state, said something demeaning about poorly-educated, low-skilled Caucasians living in rural parts of the state - perhaps "why would we want these people from a ___hole part of the state with no skills to come here to work?", essentially insinuating that they're lesser people because they're poor and have nothing to offer -  many of these rural Trump supporters and the right-wing media would be absolutely livid.  As well they should be.  Rural conservatives absolutely loathe being looked down upon by "coastal elites" and others.  But alas, by defending Trump they fail to see the double standard. To say such a generalized, inaccurate, and despicable comment is completely disgraceful and completely indefensible, no matter who you are.  This seems to come standard with Trump, however, so no surprises here.

"In regards to Senator Durbinís accusation, we do not recall the president saying these comments specifically..." - Senator Cotton and Senator Purdue.  Please.  Like anyone would ever forget such inflammatory comments during a senatorial meeting.  Your lies are just as bad as Trump's denial of what he said.

Finally, I'd like to revisit a remark by James Comey: "Lordy, I hope there are tapes".  Alright they're probably aren't any tapes, but imagine how powerful that soundbyte would be in the upcoming midterms and 2020.

Actually Liberals have been saying derogatory things continuously

Hillary " Black men are super predators "

Hillary " basket of deplorables"

Bernie " white people don't know what it's like to be poor

I could go on....

Oh Lordy, James Comey is just a swell all American boy that leaked to the media to get a special council against Trump .

Oh Lordy, James Comey the choir boy who exonerated Hillary before ever even interviewing her

Oh lordy

Would it be so hard to just defend Trump directly, if the criticism is so unfair?

You think either "side" is going to run out of examples of bad behavior on the other side? We would get literally nothing done, ever, if everyone just wants to play the "what about" game.

We teach our kids that "he started it", or "he did it first" aren't valid excuses. Maybe we should try to reach that high mark, too.

Obama and Hillary are both private citizens right now that hold no public office. Maybe we could not drag them into every. single. thread. Whatever your worst example of "liberal" behavior is, is no more valid than treating conservatives like they all belong to neo-nazi groups. It's intellectually dishonest and childish.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 13, 2018, 12:22:39 AM
He called a bunch of crapholes what they are....crapholes.  He didn't call the people from there anything.  Was it insensitive?  Yes.  Was it racist like the left want people to think?  No.  And let's be honest, he could cure Cancer and people would say "yeah well why didn't he cure AIDS?"  So he's probably gonna continue to be a 70 year old spoiled child on Twitter and say whatever he wants.

A few responses:
It wasn't only that he called the countries crapholes, he made it clear he didn't want people from those countries coming to America. In addition to being insensitive, it doesn't match up well to the reality that immigrants from many impoverished countries often are bright, educated, good people.  The underlying message from Trump was that the people from craphole countries are not worthy. When he juxtaposes predominantly black/brown populated countries with a predominantly white populated country and says he wants the people from the white country but not from the craphole countries, he is being more than insensitive. He is being either racist or stupid (I don't think he's a racist, btw).  Neither is very positive.   Further, if Trump hadn't provided fuel through previous statements that have been racially insensitive, perhaps this would not have become the maelstrom it has.  It is of his own making and the political Left is more than happy to collude with him on this.

I've been listening all day to people on the RIGHT who are outraged by his comment -- you're characterization that this is about people on the Left jumping to conclusions is an incomplete analysis.

There are definitely people who will hate him no matter what, but Donald Trump hasn't "cured cancer" in any politically metaphoric way.  If he had, I am guessing a lot of people would come around. 

Lastly, I don't really want my President acting like a spoiled child on Twitter (as if that is the only reasonable response he could have to his mistreatment).  Do you?
   
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 13, 2018, 12:35:27 AM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.

Natural, maybe, but it needs to be called for what it is in a political debate: totally irrelevant. It's literally a logical fallacy in the most formal sense- "tu quoque". Now popularly know as "whataboutism". Of course, these days I'm an elitist if I get too debate-team-y on the Internet.

Both sides do it, of course, but I find special irony when the personal responsibility advocates make it a go-to move. God forbid the POTUS be judged on his own merits.

We teach kids on the playground that "he started it" or "he did it first" aren't valid excuses, and yet, it's in practically everything political thread like clockwork. Sigh.

Itís more a recognition that the person youíre debating has no principles.  If somebody canít say ďyes, _______ was wrong when he did something similarĒ, then s/he is part of the problem. Whataboutism isnít used to excuse behavior, itís to show people what giant, shallow hypocrites they are. Pointing out hypocrisy and a lack of principled argument seems to have a place in a debate.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 13, 2018, 12:49:02 AM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.
Depends on who is providing the definition of "similar circumstances".

The bulk of these "similar circumstances" seems to have taken place when I was in high school so I'd just like to apologize to whoever was monitoring me for the places I was going online at the time.

Congrats on your recent high school graduation. Class of 2016?

No, I graduated high school in the 90s. 2016 was the year I went from correctly identifying Donald Trump as a white supremacist charlatan to carrying water for him by incessantly whatabouting Bill Clinton in a forum supposedly about current events. Unless Iím muddling things up somehow.

2016 is also the year that Obama described Libya as a ď[crap] showĒ, obviously showcasing his own racism toward North Africans, along with the British and French (whom he blamed for the failure of his own disastrous policy in Libya).

But thatís totally distinguishable, because ďshowĒ and ďholeĒ are different words, and unlike the crap show, the crap holes were crap holes before Obama got elected. Unless you mean the crap hole in Chicago, which Obama certainly helped reach its current level of crap. 

Iíve got no problem with Obama using vulgar language to describe a foreign country. Itís a recognition of the situation in the ground (that he created). The issue is when hypocrites excuse one, but not the other.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 13, 2018, 01:08:46 AM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.

Natural, maybe, but it needs to be called for what it is in a political debate: totally irrelevant. It's literally a logical fallacy in the most formal sense- "tu quoque". Now popularly know as "whataboutism". Of course, these days I'm an elitist if I get too debate-team-y on the Internet.

Both sides do it, of course, but I find special irony when the personal responsibility advocates make it a go-to move. God forbid the POTUS be judged on his own merits.

We teach kids on the playground that "he started it" or "he did it first" aren't valid excuses, and yet, it's in practically everything political thread like clockwork. Sigh.

Itís more a recognition that the person youíre debating has no principles.  If somebody canít say ďyes, _______ was wrong when he did something similarĒ, then s/he is part of the problem. Whataboutism isnít used to excuse behavior, itís to show people what giant, shallow hypocrites they are. Pointing out hypocrisy and a lack of principled argument seems to have a place in a debate.
Wow, that is wrong and insulting on so many levels. So people who don't agree with your view of the situation have no principles? They have to agree your way is the right way or else they will be labeled wrong, hypocrites and without principles? There just us no other way to look at the situation

What Trump did was clearly different than what Obama did. Obama called the situation in Libya because of the British handling of the situation a crapshow. It was a description of the event and goings on in Libya created by the UK. That word didn't describe the country itself or the people who are Libyans. Instead it was a rebuke to the UK government in the handling of the Libya situation.

Trump, after calling Mexican thieves and rapists, after calling Neo-Nazus fine people, after twice having an immigration ban halted because it targteed a certain ethnicity and religion, then goes and calls African, almost completely black countries crapholes and wants Haitians out of here, while at the same time wanting almostly completely white Norwegians to emmigrate here.

If this was an out of the blue mistake, an out of character slip....no big deal. He apologizes for a slip of his lip and all is well. But this is a clear pattern of racist comments and words used pretty consistently by this president. So yeah, there is reason to be outraged.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: KGs Knee on January 13, 2018, 01:10:02 AM
Whataboutism isnít used to excuse behavior, itís to show people what giant, shallow hypocrites they are. Pointing out hypocrisy and a lack of principled argument seems to have a place in a debate.

Well, I think some people do use 'whataboutism' to deflect.  And that's what gives the people who aren't being hypocrits just cause to voice their complaints.

But it is also a tried and true method hypocrits have always used.  Now it just has a catchy name.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: byennie on January 13, 2018, 01:37:47 AM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.

Natural, maybe, but it needs to be called for what it is in a political debate: totally irrelevant. It's literally a logical fallacy in the most formal sense- "tu quoque". Now popularly know as "whataboutism". Of course, these days I'm an elitist if I get too debate-team-y on the Internet.

Both sides do it, of course, but I find special irony when the personal responsibility advocates make it a go-to move. God forbid the POTUS be judged on his own merits.

We teach kids on the playground that "he started it" or "he did it first" aren't valid excuses, and yet, it's in practically everything political thread like clockwork. Sigh.

Itís more a recognition that the person youíre debating has no principles.  If somebody canít say ďyes, _______ was wrong when he did something similarĒ, then s/he is part of the problem. Whataboutism isnít used to excuse behavior, itís to show people what giant, shallow hypocrites they are. Pointing out hypocrisy and a lack of principled argument seems to have a place in a debate.

No, actually it really doesn't. It's a logical fallacy and would be dismissed as such in a formal setting.

Now don't get me wrong, every discussion isn't a formal debate, but whataboutism is rarely constructive, and if on top of that you're just out to prove that other people are hypocrites then congratulations, you're tossing ad hominem attacks into the mix and just trying to feel superior.

I'm sure some people will roll their eyes at "tu quoque" and "ad hominem" and so forth, but the terms exist for a reason. They are known to be weak arguments and deflections from real debate.

At some point, it becomes "my guy took a dump in the road, but you can't complain because I heard your guy did too", and now we're living in the idiocracy.

TL;DR; whataboutism is weak sauce, shows a lack of real argument, and isn't the same as simply pointing out hypocrisy on occasion.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: KGs Knee on January 13, 2018, 01:44:28 AM
TL;DR; whataboutism is weak sauce, shows a lack of real argument, and isn't the same as simply pointing out hypocrisy on occasion.

Hypocrisy should always be pointed out.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Quetzalcoatl on January 13, 2018, 02:41:24 AM
1.) Saying that all Republican politicians can't be criticized until the other side is perfect across the board is clearly a ridiculous position to hold.

2.) Liberals aren't going to get any conservatives to change their support for the GOP by lecturing them
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 13, 2018, 04:20:08 AM
Pres. Trump is becoming more depressing to me than anything else.

I've actually had a headache for most of the day thinking about his comments, here...his past comments.

I still don't believe he's racist - nor many of the GOP.

BUT - the single most depressing (and alarming) thing for ME is that for someone who is as intelligent as he claims to be (and I believe he is intelligent and bright) - why / how can he be so racially ignorant?

How can someone as well-traveled and in the public spotlight as he has been for what? 50 years or so - be racially ignorant?

This man is close friends with Oprah...has been in a Bobby Brown video (LOL - didn't believe it at first but it's true and I don't think it's photoshopped or anything).

He's been ALL OVER THE WORLD....talked to LOTS of people - even before his presidency.

I am certain that if me or my family were to ever meet him he'd come across as a decent man.

So why these comments? Why the GOP SILENCE?

When I was in the Navy good order and discipline were the rules of the day. If you said the stuff that Pres. Trump has said you'd be pulled aside, counseled, and then monitored for any regressions.

Such comments would raise alarms that would get your peers / shipmates upset, and you would get reported.

If you STILL didn't get your act right then you'd be processed out of the Navy - after being counseled by The Chief's Mess and THEN sent to Captain's Mast....

Speaking of which - I served with some Native Haitians and Africans while in the NAVY. They were smart, hardworking, and CONTRIBUTED to their Nation and Country. They made the Navy STRONGER.

I even roomed for several years with one who is a Christian. Former Navy, from Haiti. Smart man, hardworking, kept his nose clean, family man. He had a funny (but rich) accent and LOVED to eat...

NOT someone I'd recommend keeping out of my country.

While on the cusp of Martin Luther King's Birthday I'd pray that Pres. Trump finds his way and starts to understand that his comments hurt and that he is making the Nation weaker.

So far he is NOT bringing this country TOGETHER - as he PROMISED.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 13, 2018, 04:24:28 AM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.

Natural, maybe, but it needs to be called for what it is in a political debate: totally irrelevant. It's literally a logical fallacy in the most formal sense- "tu quoque". Now popularly know as "whataboutism". Of course, these days I'm an elitist if I get too debate-team-y on the Internet.

Both sides do it, of course, but I find special irony when the personal responsibility advocates make it a go-to move. God forbid the POTUS be judged on his own merits.

We teach kids on the playground that "he started it" or "he did it first" aren't valid excuses, and yet, it's in practically everything political thread like clockwork. Sigh.

Itís more a recognition that the person youíre debating has no principles.  If somebody canít say ďyes, _______ was wrong when he did something similarĒ, then s/he is part of the problem. Whataboutism isnít used to excuse behavior, itís to show people what giant, shallow hypocrites they are. Pointing out hypocrisy and a lack of principled argument seems to have a place in a debate.
Wow, that is wrong and insulting on so many levels. So people who don't agree with your view of the situation have no principles? They have to agree your way is the right way or else they will be labeled wrong, hypocrites and without principles? There just us no other way to look at the situation

What Trump did was clearly different than what Obama did. Obama called the situation in Libya because of the British handling of the situation a crapshow. It was a description of the event and goings on in Libya created by the UK. That word didn't describe the country itself or the people who are Libyans. Instead it was a rebuke to the UK government in the handling of the Libya situation.

Trump, after calling Mexican thieves and rapists, after calling Neo-Nazus fine people, after twice having an immigration ban halted because it targteed a certain ethnicity and religion, then goes and calls African, almost completely black countries crapholes and wants Haitians out of here, while at the same time wanting almostly completely white Norwegians to emmigrate here.

If this was an out of the blue mistake, an out of character slip....no big deal. He apologizes for a slip of his lip and all is well. But this is a clear pattern of racist comments and words used pretty consistently by this president. So yeah, there is reason to be outraged.

And if the hypocrisy was a one-time thing Iíd accept that people might have evolved their opinion, or been unaware of previous similar instances. But, the same serial hypocrites on both sides of the aisle always seem to find a way to support ďtheir guyĒ while distinguishing their righteous outrage toward the ďother guyĒ.

I wonít derail the thread by listing various instances of hypocrisy, but theyíre ever-present. When theyíre brought up, you can always rely on dedicated partisans to regurgitate talking points that boil down to ďmy party is good, their party is badĒ.

So, yeah: either calling another country a profane name is unpresidential, beneath the office, and wantonly dangerous, or itís not.  Itís not agreeing with my point of view, itís remaining internally consistent with some underlying principle other than ďI think how everyone else in my Party thinksĒ.   If you think Trump used vulgar, careless language that he should have known would become public, then hold Obama to the same standard.  But donít split hairs regarding the greater acceptability of ďshowĒ versus ďholesĒ.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: byennie on January 13, 2018, 05:40:18 AM
TL;DR; whataboutism is weak sauce, shows a lack of real argument, and isn't the same as simply pointing out hypocrisy on occasion.

Hypocrisy should always be pointed out.

No, absolutely not. Sometimes it's just deflecting and making it impossible to discuss the issue at hand and doesn't need to be brought up. Is hypocrisy justice warrior a term yet?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 13, 2018, 05:46:06 AM
TL;DR; whataboutism is weak sauce, shows a lack of real argument, and isn't the same as simply pointing out hypocrisy on occasion.

Hypocrisy should always be pointed out.

No, absolutely not. Sometimes it's just deflecting and making it impossible to discuss the issue at hand and doesn't need to be brought up. Is hypocrisy justice warrior a term yet?

I think itís impossible to discuss any issue at hand if oneís perspective is partisan, rather than principled.  One of the ways you determine that is examining the consistency of internal viewpoints.

Any suggestion that pointing out inconsistent positions is ineffective or off-limits in debate is silly. 
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 13, 2018, 06:27:05 AM
Quote
So why these comments? Why the GOP SILENCE?

They have not been silent, your news must be pretty biased not to report the following.

Quote
Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch, of Utah, said in response to the vulgar remark, "I look forward to getting a more detailed explanation regarding the President's comments. Part of what makes America so special is that we welcome the best and brightest in the world, regardless of their country of origin."

Quote
Speaker Paul Ryan on Friday afternoon broke his silence and condemned President Trump's remark about "sh*thole countries" from a day earlier.

The Wisconsin Republican was asked about the remark during a Q&A event at the University of Wisconsin in Milwaukee. He said that the first thing that came to mind is it's "very unfortunate" and "unhelpful."

"I thought about my own family," he said, describing his Irish immigrant relatives who came to the U.S. on what he said were called "coffin ships" and began working the railroads. Eventually, he said, they opened a farm in Wisconsin after they raised enough money.

"It's a beautiful story of America," he said. "I see this as a thing to celebrate and I think it's a big part of our strength."

Quote
ďFollowing comments by the president, I said my piece directly to him yesterday,Ē Mr. Graham said. ďThe president and all those attending the meeting know what I said and how I feel. Iíve always believed that America is an idea, not defined by its people but by its ideals.Ē

http://time.com/5100217/mia-love-donald-trump-****hole-remark/

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/01/12/577571516/republicans-join-in-condemning-trumps-use-of-expletive-to-describe-africa

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/11/politics/congress-reaction-trump-****hole-countries/index.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/paul-ryan-calls-trumps-****hole-comment-very-unfortunate-and-unhelpful/

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/us/politics/trump-immigration-congress.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/us/politics/trump-immigration-congress.html

Quote
   
Trump's 's---hole' remark sparks bipartisan backlash
© Getty Images
President Trump sparked bipartisan backlash on Thursday evening following reports that he referred to Haiti and African nations as "****hole countries" during a heated Oval Office meeting with lawmakers to discuss immigration.
 
Trump reportedly grew frustrated with restoring protections for immigrants from El Salvador, Haiti and African nations as part of an immigration deal and suggested the U.S. instead bring in more immigrants from countries such as Norway, the prime minister of which he met Wednesday.
 
ďWhy are we having all these people from ****hole countries come here?Ē Trump said, according to The Washington Post, which first reported his comments.
 
Democrats slammed the comments as racist, while multiple GOP lawmakers called on Trump to clarify his remarks after the White House did not deny the reported comments.
 
Rep. Mia Love (R-Utah), the nation's first Haitian-American representative, said the president's remarks were "unkind, divisive, elitist, and fly in the face of our nationís values."
 
"This behavior is unacceptable from the leader of our nation," Love said in a statement. "My parents came from one of those countries but proudly took an oath of allegiance to the United States and took on the responsibilities of everything that being a citizen comes with."
 
Other Republicans, such as Sen. Orrin Hatch (Utah), called for a "detailed explanation" of Trump's comments, while Sen. James Lankford (R-Okla.) called them "disappointing."
 
"I would not talk about nations like this, because I believe the people of those countries are made in the image of God and have worth and human dignity," Lankford said in a statement.
 
"Part of what makes America so special is that we welcome the best and brightest in the world, regardless of their country of origin," Hatch said in his statement.
Under no circumstances is it acceptable to degrade, denigrate, or dehumanize #TPS immigrants. The White House must immediately explain the situation and leave no doubt regarding what was said and in what context.

ó Rep. Carlos Curbelo (@RepCurbelo) January 11, 2018
The president calling #Haiti a "****hole country" ignores the contributions thousands of Haitians have made to our #SoFla community and nation. Language like that shouldn't be heard in locker rooms and it shouldn't be heard in the White House

ó Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (@RosLehtinen) January 11, 2018
Democrats were less forgiving with their criticism and blasted Republicans for not going further to rebuke the White House.

"This is racism, plain and simple, and we need to call it that. My Republican colleagues need to call it that too," Rep. Tim Walz (D-Minn.) tweeted.

Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) tweeted that Trump's comments "smack of blatant racism ó odious and insidious racism masquerading poorly as immigration policy. He does not speak for me as an American." He echoed his comments on MSNBC.

America is better than this and our president should be too. https://t.co/RIhRpMd7If

ó Senator Bob Casey (@SenBobCasey) January 11, 2018
I honestly cannot imagine the pain that those Oval Office comments are causing for immigrants and people of color everywhere. That does not represent who we are as a country. Iím sorry, and we are fighting for you.

ó Brian Schatz (@brianschatz) January 11, 2018
It appears as if the color of money isnít the only color @realDonaldTrump cares about. These are words of hate and we must condemn them on many sides.https://t.co/SUY7Mr3TEe

ó Ed Markey (@SenMarkey) January 11, 2018
The White House issued a statement Thursday in response to the Post's story and did not deny Trump's use of the term "****hole" to describe Haiti and African nations.

The president has been quoted in the past making disparaging comments about Haitian and Nigerian immigrants, comments that were swiftly denied and called "outrageous" by White House officials.

ďCertain Washington politicians choose to fight for foreign countries, but President Trump will always fight for the American people,Ē White House spokesman Raj Shah said Thursday.

Trump's comments came amid a push for a bipartisan deal on immigration as lawmakers rush to meet a Jan. 19 deadline to fund the government.

A bipartisan group of senators said Thursday they had clinched a deal to provide protections to young immigrants known as Dreamers, but faced pushback from Trump and GOP leadership.

White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said during a press briefing later in the day, "There has not been a deal reached yet. However, we still think we can get there and we are very focused on trying to make sure that happens."

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/368636-lawmakers-rail-against-trump-after-s-hole-comment

Looks like someone only has one biased newsource.  Of CNN's headline reads:

Quote
The remarkable Republican underreaction on 's---hole'

Do yourself a service and get multiple sources of news.  I would suggest it almost everyone.  News isn't news like it used to be, it is partisan be it Fox, OAN or CNN, MSNBC.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 13, 2018, 07:07:19 AM
Quote
So why these comments? Why the GOP SILENCE?

They have not been silent, your news must be pretty biased not to report the following.

Quote
Republican Sen. Orrin Hatch, of Utah, said in response to the vulgar remark, "I look forward to getting a more detailed explanation regarding the President's comments. Part of what makes America so special is that we welcome the best and brightest in the world, regardless of their country of origin."

Quote
Speaker Paul Ryan on Friday afternoon broke his silence and condemned President Trump's remark about "sh*thole countries" from a day earlier.

The Wisconsin Republican was asked about the remark during a Q&A event at the University of Wisconsin in Milwaukee. He said that the first thing that came to mind is it's "very unfortunate" and "unhelpful."

"I thought about my own family," he said, describing his Irish immigrant relatives who came to the U.S. on what he said were called "coffin ships" and began working the railroads. Eventually, he said, they opened a farm in Wisconsin after they raised enough money.

"It's a beautiful story of America," he said. "I see this as a thing to celebrate and I think it's a big part of our strength."

Quote
“Following comments by the president, I said my piece directly to him yesterday,” Mr. Graham said. “The president and all those attending the meeting know what I said and how I feel. I’ve always believed that America is an idea, not defined by its people but by its ideals.”

http://time.com/5100217/mia-love-donald-trump-****hole-remark/

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/01/12/577571516/republicans-join-in-condemning-trumps-use-of-expletive-to-describe-africa

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/11/politics/congress-reaction-trump-****hole-countries/index.html

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/paul-ryan-calls-trumps-****hole-comment-very-unfortunate-and-unhelpful/

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/us/politics/trump-immigration-congress.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/12/us/politics/trump-immigration-congress.html

Quote
   
Trump's 's---hole' remark sparks bipartisan backlash
© Getty Images
President Trump sparked bipartisan backlash on Thursday evening following reports that he referred to Haiti and African nations as "****hole countries" during a heated Oval Office meeting with lawmakers to discuss immigration.
 
Trump reportedly grew frustrated with restoring protections for immigrants from El Salvador, Haiti and African nations as part of an immigration deal and suggested the U.S. instead bring in more immigrants from countries such as Norway, the prime minister of which he met Wednesday.
 
“Why are we having all these people from ****hole countries come here?” Trump said, according to The Washington Post, which first reported his comments.
 
Democrats slammed the comments as racist, while multiple GOP lawmakers called on Trump to clarify his remarks after the White House did not deny the reported comments.
 
Rep. Mia Love (R-Utah), the nation's first Haitian-American representative, said the president's remarks were "unkind, divisive, elitist, and fly in the face of our nation’s values."
 
"This behavior is unacceptable from the leader of our nation," Love said in a statement. "My parents came from one of those countries but proudly took an oath of allegiance to the United States and took on the responsibilities of everything that being a citizen comes with."
 
Other Republicans, such as Sen. Orrin Hatch (Utah), called for a "detailed explanation" of Trump's comments, while Sen. James Lankford (R-Okla.) called them "disappointing."
 
"I would not talk about nations like this, because I believe the people of those countries are made in the image of God and have worth and human dignity," Lankford said in a statement.
 
"Part of what makes America so special is that we welcome the best and brightest in the world, regardless of their country of origin," Hatch said in his statement.
Under no circumstances is it acceptable to degrade, denigrate, or dehumanize #TPS immigrants. The White House must immediately explain the situation and leave no doubt regarding what was said and in what context.

— Rep. Carlos Curbelo (@RepCurbelo) January 11, 2018
The president calling #Haiti a "****hole country" ignores the contributions thousands of Haitians have made to our #SoFla community and nation. Language like that shouldn't be heard in locker rooms and it shouldn't be heard in the White House

— Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (@RosLehtinen) January 11, 2018
Democrats were less forgiving with their criticism and blasted Republicans for not going further to rebuke the White House.

"This is racism, plain and simple, and we need to call it that. My Republican colleagues need to call it that too," Rep. Tim Walz (D-Minn.) tweeted.

Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) tweeted that Trump's comments "smack of blatant racism — odious and insidious racism masquerading poorly as immigration policy. He does not speak for me as an American." He echoed his comments on MSNBC.

America is better than this and our president should be too. https://t.co/RIhRpMd7If

— Senator Bob Casey (@SenBobCasey) January 11, 2018
I honestly cannot imagine the pain that those Oval Office comments are causing for immigrants and people of color everywhere. That does not represent who we are as a country. I’m sorry, and we are fighting for you.

— Brian Schatz (@brianschatz) January 11, 2018
It appears as if the color of money isn’t the only color @realDonaldTrump cares about. These are words of hate and we must condemn them on many sides.https://t.co/SUY7Mr3TEe

— Ed Markey (@SenMarkey) January 11, 2018
The White House issued a statement Thursday in response to the Post's story and did not deny Trump's use of the term "****hole" to describe Haiti and African nations.

The president has been quoted in the past making disparaging comments about Haitian and Nigerian immigrants, comments that were swiftly denied and called "outrageous" by White House officials.

“Certain Washington politicians choose to fight for foreign countries, but President Trump will always fight for the American people,” White House spokesman Raj Shah said Thursday.

Trump's comments came amid a push for a bipartisan deal on immigration as lawmakers rush to meet a Jan. 19 deadline to fund the government.

A bipartisan group of senators said Thursday they had clinched a deal to provide protections to young immigrants known as Dreamers, but faced pushback from Trump and GOP leadership.

White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders said during a press briefing later in the day, "There has not been a deal reached yet. However, we still think we can get there and we are very focused on trying to make sure that happens."

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/368636-lawmakers-rail-against-trump-after-s-hole-comment

Looks like someone only has one biased newsource.  Of CNN's headline reads:

Quote
The remarkable Republican underreaction on 's---hole'

Do yourself a service and get multiple sources of news.  I would suggest it almost everyone.  News isn't news like it used to be, it is partisan be it Fox, OAN or CNN, MSNBC.

Good - thanks for posting.

So, why does he continue to make comments like this, Celticsforever?

YOU are former Military.

Why does President Trump continue to embolden the White Supremacists with these comments?

When "I" served - such comments would be categorized as "Conduct unbecoming an Officer."

And he "IS" an Officer - The Commander in Chief.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Rondo2287 on January 13, 2018, 07:21:41 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 13, 2018, 07:24:54 AM
Quote
So, why does he continue to make comments like this, Celticsforever?

I am not defending his comments.  I think Pres. Trump is a boorish human being.  He should never had said the blankhole countries comment.   

It could be he is racist but I do not know him it could be he has a colonial mindset it could be he is a jerk.  I think it could be he is all of the above to some extent but I don't know him.   He seems very narcissistic to me, though.  Right now all we can do is speculate and it does not look good.  He is embarrassing.  Could he be a white supremacist?   Basically, we have Archie Bunker as a president as I see.  He does seem certainly prejudiced to some extent.

Quote
YOU are former Military.

I am.  But what does that have to do with anything?   If anything I saw more racism in the military than anywhere else in my life.  In he 1/4 INF people fell into clicks and sometimes they clashed, of course we all did our duty but in all honesty it was not a racial utopia.   I thought we are all human beings on the side who bleed red blood but I can't say that people from all races shared that sentiment.

But when you continue to spread nonsense like no GOP has condemned him, I see you as part of the problem and not the solution.  Your literally part of the echo chamber reinforcing that view for others.

Quote
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

A statement I have heard on the radio is that if this is about the people it is racist.  If it is about the countries it is not racial.   I don't know if that is the case and it seems like a rationalization.   

Third World was a term that originated out of the Cold War to label a country not aligned with the Soviet Union or the USA.  Now it means a country that is lagging behind.  But people have called those parts of the world, third world countries for years.   Isn't that wrong, too, to some extent.   They exist in our world, isn't that a put down of sorts?   Granted it nothing like calling them a hole to put fecal matter in but it is still demeaning. 

The bottom line is certain jobs require a degree of modicum in regards to basic civility.  The Office of the President in one of those jobs.  Pres. Trump definitely seems to lack this civility.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 13, 2018, 07:32:45 AM
I just think it’s strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I don’t think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

6. Calling NFL players (whom the majority are BlacK) "SOB"s for rightfully protesting.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 13, 2018, 07:41:47 AM
Quote
So, why does he continue to make comments like this, Celticsforever?

I am not defending his comments.  I think Pres. Trump is a boorish human being.  He should never had said the blankhole countries comment.   

It could be he is racist but I do not know him it could be he has a colonial mindset it could be he is a jerk.  I think it could be he is all of the above to some extent but I don't know him.   He seems very narcissistic to me, though.  Right now all we can do is speculate and it does not look good.  He is embarrassing.  Could he be a white supremacist?   Basically, we have Archie Bunker as a president as I see.  He does seem certainly prejudiced to some extent.

Quote
YOU are former Military.

I am.  But what does that have to do with anything?   If anything I saw more racism in the military than anywhere else in my life.  In he 1/4 INF people fell into clicks and sometimes they clashed, of course we all did our duty but in all honesty it was not a racial utopia.   I thought we are all human beings on the side who bleed red blood but I can't say that people from all races shared that sentiment.

But when you continue to spread nonsense like no GOP has condemned him, I see you as part of the problem and not the solution.  Your literally part of the echo chamber reinforcing that view for others.

Quote
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

A statement I have heard on the radio is that if this is about the people it is racist.  If it is about the countries it is not racial.   I don't know if that is the case and it seems like a rationalization.   

Third World was a term that originated out of the Cold War to label a country not aligned with the Soviet Union or the USA.  Now it means a country that is lagging behind.  But people have called those parts of the world, third world countries for years.   Isn't that wrong, too, to some extent.   They exist in our world, isn't that a put down of sorts?   Granted it nothing like calling them a hole to put fecal matter in but it is still demeaning. 

The bottom line is certain jobs require a degree of modicum in regards to basic civility.  The Office of the President in one of those jobs.  Pres. Trump definitely seems to lack this civility.

Well, I'm sorry that was your experience. While I saw racism in the ranks it was NOT to the degree that you state, at least from MY experience.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Rondo2287 on January 13, 2018, 08:04:06 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 13, 2018, 08:08:45 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Rondo2287 on January 13, 2018, 08:17:05 AM
Also noteworthy

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-tells-african-american-audience-gop-ticket-would-put-them-back-in-chains/



Quote
@joebiden Itís not how a president should speak. Itís not how a president should behave. Most of all, itís not what a president should believe. Weíre better than this.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 13, 2018, 08:21:01 AM
Also noteworthy

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-tells-african-american-audience-gop-ticket-would-put-them-back-in-chains/



Quote
@joebiden Itís not how a president should speak. Itís not how a president should behave. Most of all, itís not what a president should believe. Weíre better than this.

You know - "MY" posts on here ARE related to what President Trump said a few days ago because, to ME - there is a pattern of it now.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Rondo2287 on January 13, 2018, 08:24:03 AM
Also noteworthy

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-tells-african-american-audience-gop-ticket-would-put-them-back-in-chains/



Quote
@joebiden Itís not how a president should speak. Itís not how a president should behave. Most of all, itís not what a president should believe. Weíre better than this.

You know - "MY" posts on here ARE related to what President Trump said a few days ago because, to ME - there is a pattern of it now.

You have replied to several peoples posts with mostly nonsense completely unrelated to the original post and when they reply back and indulge you you move the goalposts. 

Enjoy the rest of your day
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 13, 2018, 08:31:23 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondoís perspective isnít wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Letís not be reductive here, assuming that race informs oneís opinion above all. Thatís a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please donít question or assume othersí.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 13, 2018, 08:39:43 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I get that you don't think the comments have to do with race while others think they do.   The big social/political issue in America today (IMO) isn't that people disagree. That has always happened.  It's the degree to which people vilify, denigrate, marginalize the other side (I'm just making a point, not saying you are doing this).

You don't need to see Trump's comments as racially connected in order respect another person's perspective.   Even though I do think the comments are connected to race and align with a history of racial/gender/ethnic stereotyping from Trump's mouth, you and I probably agree that he isn't a White Supremacist or a racist.  Different points of view and common ground.  This is how previous Congresses overcame gridlock - finding common ground.  Today, we are fed a constant flurry of disdain for the left or right depending which  channel/station we watch/listen too.  Its gotten out of hand IMO.   With that said, regarding the inappropriateness of Trump's S-hole comments there has been much more universal agreement than usual.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Rondo2287 on January 13, 2018, 08:42:45 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I get that you don't think the comments have to do with race while others think they do.   The big social/political issue in America today (IMO) isn't that people disagree. That has always happened.  It's the degree to which people vilify, denigrate, marginalize the other side (I'm just making a point, not saying you are doing this).

You don't need to see Trump's comments as racially connected in order respect another person's perspective.   Even though I do think the comments are connected to race and align with a history of racial/gender/ethnic stereotyping from Trump's mouth, you and I probably agree that he isn't a White Supremacist or a racist.  Different points of view and common ground.  This is how previous Congresses overcame gridlock - finding common ground.  Today, we are fed a constant flurry of disdain for the left or right depending which  channel/station we watch/listen too.  Its gotten out of hand IMO.   With that said, on this particular comment there has been much more universal agreement regarding the inappropriateness of the comments.

Pretty much, I think he is a dirtbag and the comments are generally ridiculous.  But to the point I made before I would say North Korea is a crap hole and South Korea is not
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 13, 2018, 08:44:27 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondoís perspective isnít wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Letís not be reductive here, assuming that race informs oneís opinion above all. Thatís a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please donít question or assume othersí.

I've shared my "Background" on here since 2009 and it's gotten me little - save for some Celtics cheering.

That is the sad and disappointing thing to me on CelticsBlog - the same place that looks up to Bill Russell.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Rondo2287 on January 13, 2018, 08:48:24 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondoís perspective isnít wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Letís not be reductive here, assuming that race informs oneís opinion above all. Thatís a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please donít question or assume othersí.

I've shared my "Background" on here since 2009 and it's gotten me little - save for some Celtics cheering.

That is the sad and disappointing thing to me on CelticsBlog - the same place that looks up to Bill Russell.

Goalpost moves yet again
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 13, 2018, 08:49:14 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondoís perspective isnít wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Letís not be reductive here, assuming that race informs oneís opinion above all. Thatís a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please donít question or assume othersí.

I've shared my "Background" on here since 2009 and it's gotten me little - save for some Celtics cheering.

That is the sad and disappointing thing to me on CelticsBlog - the same place that looks up to Bill Russell.

Why should your race or background  ďget you anythingĒ more than anybody else, though?  People generally treat you respectfully, just like they do the majority of other posters.

For those who enjoy sharing their background, I think itís a great thing. At the same time, itís not a good thing to have posters openly making assumptions or stereotypes about others.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 13, 2018, 09:04:02 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondoís perspective isnít wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Letís not be reductive here, assuming that race informs oneís opinion above all. Thatís a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please donít question or assume othersí.

I've shared my "Background" on here since 2009 and it's gotten me little - save for some Celtics cheering.

That is the sad and disappointing thing to me on CelticsBlog - the same place that looks up to Bill Russell.

Goalpost moves yet again

Rondo - I've made my point - as clearly and as succinctly as I could.

If you don't understand that then that's your choice.

You (or a few other posters on this blog that I won't mention) won't scare me away from here.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 13, 2018, 09:20:31 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondoís perspective isnít wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Letís not be reductive here, assuming that race informs oneís opinion above all. Thatís a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please donít question or assume othersí.

I've shared my "Background" on here since 2009 and it's gotten me little - save for some Celtics cheering.

That is the sad and disappointing thing to me on CelticsBlog - the same place that looks up to Bill Russell.

Why should your race or background  ďget you anythingĒ more than anybody else, though?  People generally treat you respectfully, just like they do the majority of other posters.

For those who enjoy sharing their background, I think itís a great thing. At the same time, itís not a good thing to have posters openly making assumptions or stereotypes about others.

Roy - you are right.

I was wrong.

If you or Rondo2287 thought my posts were stereotyping then I apologize.

But typically what I'm finding out is that there is little common ground to be found at times with Race.

The best we seem to do as humans is simply share our experiences then move on.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Erik on January 13, 2018, 09:23:15 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondoís perspective isnít wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Letís not be reductive here, assuming that race informs oneís opinion above all. Thatís a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please donít question or assume othersí.

I've shared my "Background" on here since 2009 and it's gotten me little - save for some Celtics cheering.

That is the sad and disappointing thing to me on CelticsBlog - the same place that looks up to Bill Russell.

It hasn't? I'm sorry. Thank you for being black like our savior Bill Russell. I'm sure you worked long and hard to be black.

As a fellow minority, no one cares what your race is. You may think everyone hates you and look for micro aggressions in basic conversation, but in reality, most people don't care where you come from and will respect you as long as you respect them. The sooner we understand that, the sooner we can all move passed this society where everyone has to be offended, all the time.

When Donald Trump says people from ****hole countries, you may think that that's a whistle for some kind of racial prejudice, but in reality he's asking why we're taking the worst of the 3rd worlders with little to contribute day 1, when we should be taking the best of the best. I liken it to Harvard. Is it racist that they have a screening process? No, it's just common sense that the best country (school) should take the best immigrants (students). Again, this is coming from someone whose parents are immigrants.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Rondo2287 on January 13, 2018, 09:29:41 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondoís perspective isnít wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Letís not be reductive here, assuming that race informs oneís opinion above all. Thatís a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please donít question or assume othersí.

I've shared my "Background" on here since 2009 and it's gotten me little - save for some Celtics cheering.

That is the sad and disappointing thing to me on CelticsBlog - the same place that looks up to Bill Russell.

Goalpost moves yet again

Rondo - I've made my point - as clearly and as succinctly as I could.

If you don't understand that then that's your choice.

You (or a few other posters on this blog that I won't mention) won't scare me away from here.

I made a point and you went off on a string of unrelated posts.  Iím not trying to scare you just hoping for some decorum on the blog
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 13, 2018, 09:30:01 AM
I just think it’s strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I don’t think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondo’s perspective isn’t wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Let’s not be reductive here, assuming that race informs one’s opinion above all. That’s a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please don’t question or assume others’.

I've shared my "Background" on here since 2009 and it's gotten me little - save for some Celtics cheering.

That is the sad and disappointing thing to me on CelticsBlog - the same place that looks up to Bill Russell.

It hasn't? I'm sorry. Thank you for being black like our savior Bill Russell. I'm sure you worked long and hard to be black.

As a fellow minority, no one cares what your race is. You may think everyone hates you and look for micro aggressions in basic conversation, but in reality, most people don't care where you come from and will respect you as long as you respect them. The sooner we understand that, the sooner we can all move passed this society where everyone has to be offended, all the time.

When Donald Trump says people from ****hole countries, you may think that that's a whistle for some kind of racial prejudice, but in reality he's asking why we're taking the worst of the 3rd worlders with little to contribute day 1, when we should be taking the best of the best. I liken it to Harvard. Is it racist that they have a screening process? No, it's just common sense that the best country (school) should take the best immigrants (students). Again, this is coming from someone whose parents are immigrants.

My "Savior" if you will - has always been and will always be Jesus Christ.

As for being Black? I love it and I love how God made me - as I hope and expect YOU do whatever your race/ethnicity/sex - is.

As for the 2nd bolded part - if that is your opinion then so be it. I don't agree with it and I think it is horrible then that's my opinion.

So - basically - if we did as President Trump suggested we'd only take people from Norway......the "Best of the Best" as you say.

When my ship visited Norway early in my Navy Career I saw not one Black person there.....................
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 13, 2018, 09:33:56 AM
I just think itís strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I donít think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondoís perspective isnít wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Letís not be reductive here, assuming that race informs oneís opinion above all. Thatís a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please donít question or assume othersí.

I've shared my "Background" on here since 2009 and it's gotten me little - save for some Celtics cheering.

That is the sad and disappointing thing to me on CelticsBlog - the same place that looks up to Bill Russell.

Goalpost moves yet again

Rondo - I've made my point - as clearly and as succinctly as I could.

If you don't understand that then that's your choice.

You (or a few other posters on this blog that I won't mention) won't scare me away from here.

I made a point and you went off on a string of unrelated posts.  Iím not trying to scare you just hoping for some decorum on the blog

To me they were related, Rondo - but you seem to not get it.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 13, 2018, 09:37:18 AM
Okay, everybody, back on topic, please. Letís critique ideas, not each other.

There are some interesting ideas about race and perspective shared, but letís save that for a different thread (which anybody is free to start).
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Erik on January 13, 2018, 09:37:49 AM
Yeah obviously taking people only from Norway is bad because diversity is proven to be an advantage. I'm thinking that it was more along the lines of him only knowing a handful of countries (he's not that bright) or just the first country that popped in his head.

Immigration should be based on excellence no matter what country or any kind of heritage. The goal isn't to just bring people here to throw them onto welfare. Why not pick the best? The ones who will innovate, build great things, and teach their kids to do the same?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: indeedproceed on January 13, 2018, 09:52:41 AM
Yeah obviously taking people only from Norway is bad because diversity is proven to be an advantage. I'm thinking that it was more along the lines of him only knowing a handful of countries (he's not that bright) or just the first country that popped in his head.

Immigration should be based on excellence no matter what country or any kind of heritage. The goal isn't to just bring people here to throw them onto welfare. Why not pick the best? The ones who will innovate, build great things, and teach their kids to do the same?

...yeah, but Trump didn't say, "Let's target people with masters and translatable skills', he lamented what he sees as too many Haitians and El Salvadorans, as well as people from some African nations as immigrants. Then he wanted to know why we do get more Norwegians.

Race plays a significant role there. The only 'merit' he discussed was country of origin. And of the countries mentioned, one of those things is not like the other.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Erik on January 13, 2018, 09:59:22 AM
Yeah obviously taking people only from Norway is bad because diversity is proven to be an advantage. I'm thinking that it was more along the lines of him only knowing a handful of countries (he's not that bright) or just the first country that popped in his head.

Immigration should be based on excellence no matter what country or any kind of heritage. The goal isn't to just bring people here to throw them onto welfare. Why not pick the best? The ones who will innovate, build great things, and teach their kids to do the same?

...yeah, but Trump didn't say, "Let's target people with masters and translatable skills', he lamented what he sees as too many Haitians and El Salvadorans, as well as people from some African nations as immigrants. Then he wanted to know why we do get more Norwegians.

Race plays a significant role there. The only 'merit' he discussed was country of origin. And of the countries mentioned, one of those things is not like the other.

And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties? Norway just happens to be a top tier country with an outstanding educational system. Not everyone sees everything in racially tinted glasses.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: indeedproceed on January 13, 2018, 10:01:58 AM
Yeah obviously taking people only from Norway is bad because diversity is proven to be an advantage. I'm thinking that it was more along the lines of him only knowing a handful of countries (he's not that bright) or just the first country that popped in his head.

Immigration should be based on excellence no matter what country or any kind of heritage. The goal isn't to just bring people here to throw them onto welfare. Why not pick the best? The ones who will innovate, build great things, and teach their kids to do the same?

...yeah, but Trump didn't say, "Let's target people with masters and translatable skills', he lamented what he sees as too many Haitians and El Salvadorans, as well as people from some African nations as immigrants. Then he wanted to know why we do get more Norwegians.

Race plays a significant role there. The only 'merit' he discussed was country of origin. And of the countries mentioned, one of those things is not like the other.

And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties?

He did not say that. We can talk about "If he said this.." all day long, but what he said was racist.

I'm sure lots of people have said things that if they were framed differently would not be considered racist. That probably happens all the time to Trump. Where, if he'd only tweaked his comment a little, he'd sound like less of a racist. He just doesn't seem to not sound like a racist as often as he sounds like a racist, and his comment was racist, inherently, undeniably.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Erik on January 13, 2018, 10:11:45 AM
Yeah obviously taking people only from Norway is bad because diversity is proven to be an advantage. I'm thinking that it was more along the lines of him only knowing a handful of countries (he's not that bright) or just the first country that popped in his head.

Immigration should be based on excellence no matter what country or any kind of heritage. The goal isn't to just bring people here to throw them onto welfare. Why not pick the best? The ones who will innovate, build great things, and teach their kids to do the same?

...yeah, but Trump didn't say, "Let's target people with masters and translatable skills', he lamented what he sees as too many Haitians and El Salvadorans, as well as people from some African nations as immigrants. Then he wanted to know why we do get more Norwegians.

Race plays a significant role there. The only 'merit' he discussed was country of origin. And of the countries mentioned, one of those things is not like the other.

And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties?

He did not say that. We can talk about "If he said this.." all day long, but what he said was racist.

I'm sure lots of people have said things that if they were framed differently would not be considered racist. That probably happens all the time to Trump. Where, if he'd only tweaked his comment a little, he'd sound like less of a racist. He just doesn't seem to not sound like a racist as often as he sounds like a racist, and his comment was racist, inherently, undeniably.

The Haitian Educational System yields the lowest total rate in the education realm of the Western Hemisphere.[3] Haiti's literacy rate of about 61% (64.3% for males and 57.3% for females) is below the 90% average literacy rate for Latin American and Caribbean countries. --Wikipedia

Whereas Norway is consistently top 20.

But yeah it's only because they're white.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 13, 2018, 10:23:00 AM
And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties? Norway just happens to be a top tier country with an outstanding educational system. Not everyone sees everything in racially tinted glasses.
But he doesn't get upset about that, does he? He gets upset about Indians, Mexicans, Haitians and the likes.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Erik on January 13, 2018, 10:28:08 AM
And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties? Norway just happens to be a top tier country with an outstanding educational system. Not everyone sees everything in racially tinted glasses.
But he doesn't get upset about that, does he? He gets upset about Indians, Mexicans, Haitians and the likes.

He gets upset about illegal Mexican immigration like a president should.

Let me ask in another way. As a taxpayer and someone who has general interest in American prosperity, Would you rather have an average Haitian here who has a 40% chance of not being able to read or a Norwegian with a masters degree?

The answer to me is blatant regardless of the color of their skin.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 13, 2018, 10:29:45 AM
Yeah obviously taking people only from Norway is bad because diversity is proven to be an advantage. I'm thinking that it was more along the lines of him only knowing a handful of countries (he's not that bright) or just the first country that popped in his head.

Immigration should be based on excellence no matter what country or any kind of heritage. The goal isn't to just bring people here to throw them onto welfare. Why not pick the best? The ones who will innovate, build great things, and teach their kids to do the same?

...yeah, but Trump didn't say, "Let's target people with masters and translatable skills', he lamented what he sees as too many Haitians and El Salvadorans, as well as people from some African nations as immigrants. Then he wanted to know why we do get more Norwegians.

Race plays a significant role there. The only 'merit' he discussed was country of origin. And of the countries mentioned, one of those things is not like the other.

And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties?

He did not say that. We can talk about "If he said this.." all day long, but what he said was racist.

I'm sure lots of people have said things that if they were framed differently would not be considered racist. That probably happens all the time to Trump. Where, if he'd only tweaked his comment a little, he'd sound like less of a racist. He just doesn't seem to not sound like a racist as often as he sounds like a racist, and his comment was racist, inherently, undeniably.

The Haitian Educational System yields the lowest total rate in the education realm of the Western Hemisphere.[3] Haiti's literacy rate of about 61% (64.3% for males and 57.3% for females) is below the 90% average literacy rate for Latin American and Caribbean countries. --Wikipedia

Whereas Norway is consistently top 20.

But yeah it's only because they're white.

It may be more apropos to your point to look at statistics pertaining to actual immigrants rather than their native country stats.  If Trump wants good, smart, ready-to-contribute people, these can be found in any country (maybe he should have begun with this).   It may also be likely that the thriving people from Norway don't have a great deal of interest in emigrating, while the impoverished people of Haiti and some African countries may be more likely to want to emigrate.  If the point is to welcome their best and brightest, I think most would agree. To paint a large swath of disdain toward anyone who comes from s-hole countries may not be what he intended to do, but it's what he did. 
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 13, 2018, 10:29:51 AM
Quote
And of the countries mentioned, one of those things is not like the other.

One is a first world nation? Trump just hosted the PM of one of those nations at the White House, so that nation was on his mind? One of those nations isnít a crap hole?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 13, 2018, 10:31:16 AM
And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties? Norway just happens to be a top tier country with an outstanding educational system. Not everyone sees everything in racially tinted glasses.
But he doesn't get upset about that, does he? He gets upset about Indians, Mexicans, Haitians and the likes.

He gets upset about illegal Mexican immigration like a president should.

Let me ask in another way. As a taxpayer and someone who has general interest in American prosperity, Would you rather have a Haitian here who has a 40% chance of not being able to read or a Haitian or Norwegian with a masters degree?

The answer to me is blatant regardless of the color of their skin.
He got upset that there are too many Indians on H1B visas. That has nothing to do with them being unskilled or illegal. In fact, he proposed a program that would have returned three quarter of a million people back to India, even though the industry is pretty adamant they can't fill those positions adequately, and unemployment in the US is at historic lows.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Erik on January 13, 2018, 10:38:40 AM
i think you guys are missing the overall point here. He wants people with higher education. If the country's education system produces a 40% illiteracy rate, what does that tell you about the education of the rest of them? You think that the other 60% have PhDs? We should bias immigration towards countries with great educational systems... and there are a lot of them that are white minority.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 13, 2018, 10:46:57 AM
Let me ask in another way. As a taxpayer and someone who has general interest in American prosperity, Would you rather have an average Haitian here who has a 40% chance of not being able to read or a Norwegian with a masters degree?
I'll address this separately, because it's an important point. Just because you let a Norwegian with a Master's degree in doesn't mean there's a job for him. In fact, schooling levels in the US are so high these days that the country is pretty capable of producing high-skilled workers.

The flip side of this coin is that when everyone gets a lot of schooling, there are fewer people that don't. It's probably counterproductive if the guy at Starbucks or the woman cleaning my house had a couple of advanced degrees.

And lastly, immigration from "craphole countries" is not about first-generation immigrants. In many respects, they're a lost generation. They'll come here at a latter age and with potentially limited knowledge of English so their prospects are questionable. However, being able to pick up your stuff and trek halfway across the world to start a family from nothing is an actual quality that has value -- as much as or maybe more than being able to make it through grad school. This is about the kids they're going to raise and the type of members of society those people are going to be.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Sophomore on January 13, 2018, 10:51:22 AM
Yeah obviously taking people only from Norway is bad because diversity is proven to be an advantage. I'm thinking that it was more along the lines of him only knowing a handful of countries (he's not that bright) or just the first country that popped in his head.

Immigration should be based on excellence no matter what country or any kind of heritage. The goal isn't to just bring people here to throw them onto welfare. Why not pick the best? The ones who will innovate, build great things, and teach their kids to do the same?

...yeah, but Trump didn't say, "Let's target people with masters and translatable skills', he lamented what he sees as too many Haitians and El Salvadorans, as well as people from some African nations as immigrants. Then he wanted to know why we do get more Norwegians.

Race plays a significant role there. The only 'merit' he discussed was country of origin. And of the countries mentioned, one of those things is not like the other.

And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties?

He did not say that. We can talk about "If he said this.." all day long, but what he said was racist.

I'm sure lots of people have said things that if they were framed differently would not be considered racist. That probably happens all the time to Trump. Where, if he'd only tweaked his comment a little, he'd sound like less of a racist. He just doesn't seem to not sound like a racist as often as he sounds like a racist, and his comment was racist, inherently, undeniably.

The Haitian Educational System yields the lowest total rate in the education realm of the Western Hemisphere.[3] Haiti's literacy rate of about 61% (64.3% for males and 57.3% for females) is below the 90% average literacy rate for Latin American and Caribbean countries. --Wikipedia

Whereas Norway is consistently top 20.

But yeah it's only because they're white.

Are you saying you think race had nothing to do with it? That he might go on to say, for example, we need to take fewer people from the ****hole parts of rural Ireland or Poland  and take more people from Mexico and Nigeria who are educated? I’m pretty sure that wasn’t it. He was lumping people together based on their country of origin, not treating them as individuals, and he picked countries based on race.

The whole idea of saying we don’t want people from broken countries is wrongheaded. There is a long tradition of ambitious people leaving the countries of their birth because they had no opportunity there. These people often came to America with no education because their countries had failed them, but worked hard to gain advancement for themselves or their kids. Others had education but no jobs. At our best, we didn’t say: you’re from a ****hole country, we don’t want you. We said: you had the spark and determination to make a new life. Welcome. Trump is the opposite.

As for Haitians, they are more likely to be working age than native Americans, and among working age people (18-65) they are more likely to hold a job.

And as for African immigrants, they are *more* educated than US natives. His resistance is emphatically not about education. He has a stereotypical and uninformed view of African immigrants, not rooted in reality. https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/world/africa/la-fg-global-african-immigrants-explainer-20180112-story,amp.html

I think Trump is characteristic of a lot of white thought about race in the US. He has no idea how the world of racial minorities really is because he has never tried to understand what the world looks like to them. He’s reflexively afraid and aversive, and tends to believe the worst of people who aren’t white. In other words, racist.


Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: TomHeinsohn on January 13, 2018, 10:58:14 AM
I love how the disenfranchised worker who lost his 60k/yr job at the paperclip bending factory and refuses to go out and acquire new skills and training thinks the solution to all his woes is to import exclusively people that are infinitely more educated and qualified than himself.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 13, 2018, 10:59:23 AM
i think you guys are missing the overall point here. He wants people with higher education. If the country's education system produces a 40% illiteracy rate, what does that tell you about the education of the rest of them? You think that the other 60% have PhDs? We should bias immigration towards countries with great educational systems... and there are a lot of them that are white minority.

Actually, I honestly think you (and I) need more information.  I presume that every country produces highly intelligent and well-educated or highly educable individuals.  There are 11 million people in Haiti.  If only 1% met Trump's intelligence/education criteria, that would mean over 100,000 people.  Lots of people from ANY country in the world would be merit candidates meeting Trumps immigration criteria.  He just needs to acknowledge this and not disparage and denigrate.  Bring people together and not divide as he promised in his inaugural address.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Sophomore on January 13, 2018, 11:03:47 AM
And if he was upset that we have too many Bosnians or Romanians? How many brown people from those third world counties? Norway just happens to be a top tier country with an outstanding educational system. Not everyone sees everything in racially tinted glasses.
But he doesn't get upset about that, does he? He gets upset about Indians, Mexicans, Haitians and the likes.

He gets upset about illegal Mexican immigration like a president should.

Let me ask in another way. As a taxpayer and someone who has general interest in American prosperity, Would you rather have a Haitian here who has a 40% chance of not being able to read or a Haitian or Norwegian with a masters degree?

The answer to me is blatant regardless of the color of their skin.
He got upset that there are too many Indians on H1B visas. That has nothing to do with them being unskilled or illegal. In fact, he proposed a program that would have returned three quarter of a million people back to India, even though the industry is pretty adamant they can't fill those positions adequately, and unemployment in the US is at historic lows.

A Haitian trying to come to the US is not 40% unlikely to know how to read. Immigration selects for people who are better educated and more highly motivated. To pick up and leave your home to go to a foreign country takes skills and resources. Haitian immigrants to the US are more likely to hold a job than native- born Americans.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: chicagoceltic on January 13, 2018, 11:07:53 AM
Personally I do not care one bit that the President used a curse word.  Truthfully, from what I understand, he was not inaccurate in his description of at least parts of Haiti and some African countries and I have use the same term to describe places, some in my own local geographic area.  To me, this would be a non-story, or a minor story, if President Trump merely referred to these countries as crapholes.  Unfortunately that is not the whole story and the bigger issue is the history of what he has said or tweeted.

President Trump did not just call these countries crapholes, he asked why we were letting people in from these crapholes.  That goes past just referring to the state of a place and is now passing judgement on people just because of where they come from.  Combine that with him reportedly recently saying something along the lines of “all Haitian have AIDS” and if Nigerians come here they “would never go back to their huts in Africa”, it is no longer just a matter of the President using crude language but rather him insulting a wide swath of people based soley on where they were born.  Is it racist?  Maybe not but it is in poor taste, insulting, predujiced and beneath the office of the President of the United States.

Yes, I know the President’s appeal to his core base of supporters is that he is not PC, that he talks like they do at the local bar etc, etc, etc.  That is all fine and dandy but I don’t want the loudmouth, bloviating drunk at the bar leading our country.  Whether his core supporters like it or not to be a successful President one has to have some sort of diplomacy and nuanced thought.  President Trump does not appear to have either.

President Trump’s rhetoric has long been divisive, petty and insulting.  He started his campaign by getting off his gilded elevator and insulting Mexicans.  He continued with petty name calling of other Republicans (Little Marco, Lyin’ Ted, Low Energy Jeb) and then of course to petty name calling of Democrats (Crooked Hillary, Pocohantas).  Since his election he seems to have targeted and insulted friends and foes alike.

In my opinion his rhetoric is dangerous both domestically and internationally.  Domestically, while he may very well not be racist (and I am not saying he is), I think his talk has emboldened and legitimized some bad actors.  I am not saying that that is/was his intent but it is a side effect of that tough, non-PC, shoot from the hips style that his supporters like so much.  The David Duke’s of the world have come out and all but said that Trump has legitimized their views.  While President Trump may not share their views I believe that his words and actions have made people feel comfortable enough to come out of the shadows to show their hateful and racist tendencies.  It has led to things like the furthering of the alt-right movement, people being comfortable marching and chanting hate speech in Virginia and children and adults thinking it is ok/fun/acceptable to wear jerseys with names like “Knee Grow” and “Coons” on their jerseys to a youth basketball tournament.

Internationally the danger is our relationships and standing in the world pecking order.  Not only is the President the leader of our country but he is the supposed leader of the free world.  The President has insulted our allies with his pettiness and actions.  Allied countries have had millions of people sign petitions to bar him from visiting and governments actually have had to legally debate the possibility of not allowing him to visit.  Granted, for diplomatic reasons that will never happen but it is very telling that they are having those discussions.  Our place as the leader of the free world is slipping away.  Merkel and Marcon are stepping up as the new leaders of the free world.  That is troubling.

Before anyone jumps in that I am just a liberal snowflake let me admit that I am a proud liberal and Democrat.  That being said, I am not alone and this concern is not a partisan concern.  Plenty of Republican leaders have come out and condemned many of Trump’s comments since the day he announced his candidacy for President.  So have leaders from all around the world, allies and enemies alike. 

The President’s words have consequences and I am afraid of those consequences…

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: TomHeinsohn on January 13, 2018, 11:43:14 AM
Is it racist?

Yes.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Sophomore on January 13, 2018, 12:00:10 PM
I just think it’s strange people are using this issue to paint trump as a racist.  I don’t think the comment has much to do with race

I don't think ANYONE here is trying to paint President Trump as a racist.

"I" don't and NEVER have.

But he has exhibited a pattern of commentary that leads to extreme ignorance racially. And that is both depressing to ME and saddening.

1. "Good People on BOTH sides", in Charlottesville.

(https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/13/heather-heyer_vert-02911c2f108ce92b05cb3f432e286cf35df8a0d7-s300-c85.jpg)

2. His comments to Steph Curry about he and GSW not attending the White House.

3. His back-and-forth with the Mayor of San Juan.

4. His constant (and tiring) efforts and questioning about Pres. Obama's birthplace.

(http://junkee.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Donald-Trump-Hawaii-Kenya.jpg)

5. His back-and-forth with the widow of the slain soldier.

LOOK - I just stated on previous page of thread that if I (or my family) ever got the opportunity to meet President Trump I'm certain that he'd be a decent man and it would be a nice visit.

But WHY the comments from him? Why the pattern?

Your response has literally nothing to do with this issue, seems to be a pattern


And THAT, is, unfortunately - the rub.

As a Black Man in America I see things differently from "MY" Perspective than others.

I am guessing you are WHITE.

"MY" perspective is NOT wrong but because YOU don't see it then YOU think it's wrong.

And Rondo’s perspective isn’t wrong because you make assumptions about his race. Let’s not be reductive here, assuming that race informs one’s opinion above all. That’s a slippery slope into prejudice.  Feel free to share your own background, but please don’t question or assume others’.

I've shared my "Background" on here since 2009 and it's gotten me little - save for some Celtics cheering.

That is the sad and disappointing thing to me on CelticsBlog - the same place that looks up to Bill Russell.

It hasn't? I'm sorry. Thank you for being black like our savior Bill Russell. I'm sure you worked long and hard to be black.

As a fellow minority, no one cares what your race is. You may think everyone hates you and look for micro aggressions in basic conversation, but in reality, most people don't care where you come from and will respect you as long as you respect them. The sooner we understand that, the sooner we can all move passed this society where everyone has to be offended, all the time.

When Donald Trump says people from ****hole countries, you may think that that's a whistle for some kind of racial prejudice, but in reality he's asking why we're taking the worst of the 3rd worlders with little to contribute day 1, when we should be taking the best of the best. I liken it to Harvard. Is it racist that they have a screening process? No, it's just common sense that the best country (school) should take the best immigrants (students). Again, this is coming from someone whose parents are immigrants.

Did you know that immigrants to the US from Africa are better educated than native-born Americans?

As for whether immigrants generally have something to contribute from day 1, did you know that Haitians in the US are more likely to be in the workforce than native born Americans?

In every country there are all sorts of people. There are well educated Haitians and poorly educated Englishmen. Hardworking Ethiopians and lazy Germans. By and large, people willing to pull up roots and move to a new country have more grit and determination- they showed it by their actions. 




Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Amonkey on January 13, 2018, 01:17:08 PM
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 13, 2018, 01:33:39 PM
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.

With the lottery system and chain migration, you really don't need to have a skill or money, or even be of in the work force age range. Elderly parents of and immigrants for example( my uncle was able to bring over his 80+ year old mother who didn't speak a word of English from Serbia). These things put strain on the welfare system for sure.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Amonkey on January 13, 2018, 01:51:22 PM
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.

With the lottery system and chain migration, you really don't need to have a skill or money, or even be of in the work force age range. Elderly parents of and immigrants for example( my uncle was able to bring over his 80+ year old mother who didn't speak a word of English from Serbia). These things put strain on the welfare system for sure.

Again, if you are in a lottery system, you still need some means to show that you are a capable member of society. I have never heard of a system where they'll literally take anyone, with no background check or proof of income. Your grandma may not speak English, but by no means is that an indication of intelligence. Many Europeans speak multiple languages that may not include English. It took us years to get my grandma to come from Brazil, and this was after she was denied since she didn't have proof of owning property I. Brazil.

Also, how did your grandma put a strain on the welfare system? Did she rely on it? I would assume that she may have spent her retirement money here, which would be additional income coming to the States, or your uncle paid for her, which means there's no loss, or that she obtained legal documents to use welfare, which means the issue is not illegal immigration.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Sophomore on January 13, 2018, 02:06:59 PM
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.

With the lottery system and chain migration, you really don't need to have a skill or money, or even be of in the work force age range. Elderly parents of and immigrants for example( my uncle was able to bring over his 80+ year old mother who didn't speak a word of English from Serbia). These things put strain on the welfare system for sure.

Net, immigrants to the US are more likely to hold jobs than the nativeborn population. Here are statistics released by the Trump administration this year (not CNN, not the liberal media):

"In 2016, the labor force participation rate of the foreign born was 65.2 percent... The participation rate for the native born was 62.3 percent in 2016..."

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf

If you want to find an immigrant group that is least likely to hold down a job, that would be the white immigrants, who are dragging the immigrant number down:

"Among the major race and ethnicity groups in 2016, labor force participation rates for foreign-born Whites (59.0 percent), Blacks (70.1 percent), Asians (63.1 percent), and Hispanics (67.9 percent) were little different from the prior year."

I don't know what explains these differences. Possibly, whites are older. Or maybe they come with more wealth, or wealthier relatives, so fewer family members work. Or maybe more kids and older people are in the family units. Point is - the idea that immigrants are a bunch of nonworkers, kids, and old people doesn't stand up - especially for nonanglo immigrants. Immigrants increase the proportion of our population that is prime-age employed.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: jpotter33 on January 13, 2018, 02:39:31 PM
Let's stay civil and on subject. This thread isn't about what Obama did or the Clinton Foundation.
I appreciate this comment, but it's inevitable. Does anyone actually know why there always ends up being efforts to highlight perceived double standards or hypocrisy?

I thinks itís natural when somebody expresses outrage, yet didnít under similar circumstances previously.  Itís legit to wonder if theyíre truly outraged, or whether theyíre exaggerating to score political points.

Natural, maybe, but it needs to be called for what it is in a political debate: totally irrelevant. It's literally a logical fallacy in the most formal sense- "tu quoque". Now popularly know as "whataboutism". Of course, these days I'm an elitist if I get too debate-team-y on the Internet.

Both sides do it, of course, but I find special irony when the personal responsibility advocates make it a go-to move. God forbid the POTUS be judged on his own merits.

We teach kids on the playground that "he started it" or "he did it first" aren't valid excuses, and yet, it's in practically everything political thread like clockwork. Sigh.

Itís more a recognition that the person youíre debating has no principles.  If somebody canít say ďyes, _______ was wrong when he did something similarĒ, then s/he is part of the problem. Whataboutism isnít used to excuse behavior, itís to show people what giant, shallow hypocrites they are. Pointing out hypocrisy and a lack of principled argument seems to have a place in a debate.

No, actually it really doesn't. It's a logical fallacy and would be dismissed as such in a formal setting.

Now don't get me wrong, every discussion isn't a formal debate, but whataboutism is rarely constructive, and if on top of that you're just out to prove that other people are hypocrites then congratulations, you're tossing ad hominem attacks into the mix and just trying to feel superior.

I'm sure some people will roll their eyes at "tu quoque" and "ad hominem" and so forth, but the terms exist for a reason. They are known to be weak arguments and deflections from real debate.

At some point, it becomes "my guy took a dump in the road, but you can't complain because I heard your guy did too", and now we're living in the idiocracy.

TL;DR; whataboutism is weak sauce, shows a lack of real argument, and isn't the same as simply pointing out hypocrisy on occasion.

Eh, you're interpreting this logical fallacy too broadly here, and you're also not taking into consideration the context, which you alluded to in your "formal debate" comment. From a purely formal logical perspective, sure, these types of analogical arguments are weak (or even fallacious in certain contexts) and are considered insufficient to conclusively justify an argument and prove a conclusion.

However, we're talking about practical moral reasoning here, and per the universal/consistency/equality criterion of most moral systems (i.e. moral standards should hold equally and consistently for all parties in similar circumstances), pointing out the hypocrisy of others in similar situations is absolutely a relevant component of moral debate.

As I stated above, you're absolutely correct that this type of analogical argument is insufficient to prove a conclusion or justify a certain action or behavior, and many times it is essentially used as a "red herring" meant to deflect away from addressing the original critique of their logical argument, in which case it would certainly be a bonafide logical fallacy.

However, to suggest that this type of analogical argument has no place in practical moral reasoning (which is the majority of political arguments) is mistaken and shortsighted, because moral arguments of this type rely on some sort of universality and consistency in order to be enforceable and acceptable. Roy is correct in his argument that this type of analogical argument highlights the unprincipled and hypocritical nature of the opposition, because why would you find someone else's argument compelling if they weren't held to the same moral standard in a similar situation?

So you're both correct: while these types of analogical arguments are insufficient to prove a conclusion and should not be utilized to deflect away from arguments, they are absolutely useful and relevant to practical moral reasoning, because if people are unwilling to consistently act with the same moral standards that they hold you to, then there's no reason to give any weight to their argument.

EDIT: And let me just say that I *hate* that the concept of "whataboutism" has received so much attention lately. This logical concept is only relevant in certain situations with specific motivations, yet people regularly misapply it to any type of inductive analogical reasoning, which ticks me off due to how prevalent this type of logical reasoning is in human rationality.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 13, 2018, 02:50:44 PM
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.

With the lottery system and chain migration, you really don't need to have a skill or money, or even be of in the work force age range. Elderly parents of and immigrants for example( my uncle was able to bring over his 80+ year old mother who didn't speak a word of English from Serbia). These things put strain on the welfare system for sure.

Net, immigrants to the US are more likely to hold jobs than the nativeborn population. Here are statistics released by the Trump administration this year (not CNN, not the liberal media):

"In 2016, the labor force participation rate of the foreign born was 65.2 percent... The participation rate for the native born was 62.3 percent in 2016..."

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf

If you want to find an immigrant group that is least likely to hold down a job, that would be the white immigrants, who are dragging the immigrant number down:

"Among the major race and ethnicity groups in 2016, labor force participation rates for foreign-born Whites (59.0 percent), Blacks (70.1 percent), Asians (63.1 percent), and Hispanics (67.9 percent) were little different from the prior year."

I don't know what explains these differences. Possibly, whites are older. Or maybe they come with more wealth, or wealthier relatives, so fewer family members work. Or maybe more kids and older people are in the family units. Point is - the idea that immigrants are a bunch of nonworkers, kids, and old people doesn't stand up - especially for nonanglo immigrants. Immigrants increase the proportion of our population that is prime-age employed.

Yet:

Quote
n 2012, 51 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal or illegal) reported that they used at least one welfare program during the year, compared to 30 percent of native households. Welfare in this study includes Medicaid and cash, food, and housing programs.

Welfare use is high for both new arrivals and well-established immigrants. Of households headed by immigrants who have been in the country for more than two decades, 48 percent access welfare.

Welfare use varies among immigrant groups. Households headed by immigrants from Central America and Mexico (73 percent), the Caribbean (51 percent), and Africa (48 percent) have the highest overall welfare use. Those from East Asia (32 percent), Europe (26 percent), and South Asia (17 percent) have the lowest.


Immigrants do use a significant number of resources.  My guess is that legal immigrants use less than illegals and asylum seekers, but overall we should only be bringing in immigrants who can 100% support themselves and their families.

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: indeedproceed on January 13, 2018, 03:59:28 PM
So I was looking at the above post, it cites a study from the Center For Immigration Studies (CIS), which has been labelled by the SLPC has a hate group (to some controversy), but is by its own admission, an agenda driven think-tank. The study is not one with what I'd call a decent providence.

But that said, THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE STUDY. With such a controversial topic, you'd think that at the very least, a pro-immigration think tank would offer an alternative study that pops up on a google search.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 13, 2018, 04:00:27 PM
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.

With the lottery system and chain migration, you really don't need to have a skill or money, or even be of in the work force age range. Elderly parents of and immigrants for example( my uncle was able to bring over his 80+ year old mother who didn't speak a word of English from Serbia). These things put strain on the welfare system for sure.

Net, immigrants to the US are more likely to hold jobs than the nativeborn population. Here are statistics released by the Trump administration this year (not CNN, not the liberal media):

"In 2016, the labor force participation rate of the foreign born was 65.2 percent... The participation rate for the native born was 62.3 percent in 2016..."

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf

If you want to find an immigrant group that is least likely to hold down a job, that would be the white immigrants, who are dragging the immigrant number down:

"Among the major race and ethnicity groups in 2016, labor force participation rates for foreign-born Whites (59.0 percent), Blacks (70.1 percent), Asians (63.1 percent), and Hispanics (67.9 percent) were little different from the prior year."

I don't know what explains these differences. Possibly, whites are older. Or maybe they come with more wealth, or wealthier relatives, so fewer family members work. Or maybe more kids and older people are in the family units. Point is - the idea that immigrants are a bunch of nonworkers, kids, and old people doesn't stand up - especially for nonanglo immigrants. Immigrants increase the proportion of our population that is prime-age employed.

Yet:

Quote
n 2012, 51 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal or illegal) reported that they used at least one welfare program during the year, compared to 30 percent of native households. Welfare in this study includes Medicaid and cash, food, and housing programs.

Welfare use is high for both new arrivals and well-established immigrants. Of households headed by immigrants who have been in the country for more than two decades, 48 percent access welfare.

Welfare use varies among immigrant groups. Households headed by immigrants from Central America and Mexico (73 percent), the Caribbean (51 percent), and Africa (48 percent) have the highest overall welfare use. Those from East Asia (32 percent), Europe (26 percent), and South Asia (17 percent) have the lowest.


Immigrants do use a significant number of resources.  My guess is that legal immigrants use less than illegals and asylum seekers, but overall we should only be bringing in immigrants who can 100% support themselves and their families.

Hypothetical: you have a trained cancer researcher or a brilliant 17 yo that has great potential, but each will require some assistance during adjustment or for education....  just bringing this up to suggest that optimal immigration policy is likely quite complicated and nuanced.  100% ready to support self may not be the sole criteria in a smart and compassionate immigration system.

 I think there is a very small segment of the population that either want closed borders (no legal immigration system) or open borders (free and easy entree; minimally vetted immigration).  I think the vast majority favor smart immigration with some measure of compassion and considerable forethought.  It is a travesty that we still don't have reps in Washington that can iron this out.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 13, 2018, 04:12:45 PM
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.

With the lottery system and chain migration, you really don't need to have a skill or money, or even be of in the work force age range. Elderly parents of and immigrants for example( my uncle was able to bring over his 80+ year old mother who didn't speak a word of English from Serbia). These things put strain on the welfare system for sure.

Net, immigrants to the US are more likely to hold jobs than the nativeborn population. Here are statistics released by the Trump administration this year (not CNN, not the liberal media):

"In 2016, the labor force participation rate of the foreign born was 65.2 percent... The participation rate for the native born was 62.3 percent in 2016..."

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf

If you want to find an immigrant group that is least likely to hold down a job, that would be the white immigrants, who are dragging the immigrant number down:

"Among the major race and ethnicity groups in 2016, labor force participation rates for foreign-born Whites (59.0 percent), Blacks (70.1 percent), Asians (63.1 percent), and Hispanics (67.9 percent) were little different from the prior year."

I don't know what explains these differences. Possibly, whites are older. Or maybe they come with more wealth, or wealthier relatives, so fewer family members work. Or maybe more kids and older people are in the family units. Point is - the idea that immigrants are a bunch of nonworkers, kids, and old people doesn't stand up - especially for nonanglo immigrants. Immigrants increase the proportion of our population that is prime-age employed.

Yet:

Quote
n 2012, 51 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal or illegal) reported that they used at least one welfare program during the year, compared to 30 percent of native households. Welfare in this study includes Medicaid and cash, food, and housing programs.

Welfare use is high for both new arrivals and well-established immigrants. Of households headed by immigrants who have been in the country for more than two decades, 48 percent access welfare.

Welfare use varies among immigrant groups. Households headed by immigrants from Central America and Mexico (73 percent), the Caribbean (51 percent), and Africa (48 percent) have the highest overall welfare use. Those from East Asia (32 percent), Europe (26 percent), and South Asia (17 percent) have the lowest.


Immigrants do use a significant number of resources.  My guess is that legal immigrants use less than illegals and asylum seekers, but overall we should only be bringing in immigrants who can 100% support themselves and their families.

Hypothetical: you have a trained cancer researcher or a brilliant 17 yo that has great potential, but each will require some assistance during adjustment or for education....  just bringing this up to suggest that optimal immigration policy is likely quite complicated and nuanced.  100% ready to support self may not be the sole criteria in a smart and compassionate immigration system.

 I think there is a very small segment of the population that either want closed borders (no legal immigration system) or open borders (free and easy entree; minimally vetted immigration).  I think the vast majority favor smart immigration with some measure of compassion and considerable forethought.  It is a travesty that we still don't have reps in Washington that can iron this out.
I disagree. These are really hard issues.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Sophomore on January 13, 2018, 04:14:41 PM
I find it interesting that people keep mentioning illiterate and poor people coming here. Typically, you need some means to come to the US. Whether it be by plane, crossing the border or whatever, there is still either a visa (temporary where they overstay) or money for the trip and to pay people to cross. To get a visa, you need to show some income to be granted a visa. My cousin had to enrolled in college and have a full time job to show she has something to get back to. My grandma had to show her house property documents and the kids in Brazil that depend on her to get a visa.

Basically, if you are barely getting by with minimum education, most likely you don't have money or any means to even start the process.

For example, my wife did the Peace Corps in Guatemala. From my limited knowledge of people that I met here, I had a preconceived notion of Latinos. When I got there, I learned that there is a whole population of indigenous Mayans that don't even speak Spanish. They're much poorer than the Latinos(which are mix of europeans decendants) and could never afford to come to the US. Since my perception has changed. An overwhelmingly percentage of Guatemalan that I see here are latinos, which means they had at least some way to get here.

With the lottery system and chain migration, you really don't need to have a skill or money, or even be of in the work force age range. Elderly parents of and immigrants for example( my uncle was able to bring over his 80+ year old mother who didn't speak a word of English from Serbia). These things put strain on the welfare system for sure.

Net, immigrants to the US are more likely to hold jobs than the nativeborn population. Here are statistics released by the Trump administration this year (not CNN, not the liberal media):

"In 2016, the labor force participation rate of the foreign born was 65.2 percent... The participation rate for the native born was 62.3 percent in 2016..."

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf

If you want to find an immigrant group that is least likely to hold down a job, that would be the white immigrants, who are dragging the immigrant number down:

"Among the major race and ethnicity groups in 2016, labor force participation rates for foreign-born Whites (59.0 percent), Blacks (70.1 percent), Asians (63.1 percent), and Hispanics (67.9 percent) were little different from the prior year."

I don't know what explains these differences. Possibly, whites are older. Or maybe they come with more wealth, or wealthier relatives, so fewer family members work. Or maybe more kids and older people are in the family units. Point is - the idea that immigrants are a bunch of nonworkers, kids, and old people doesn't stand up - especially for nonanglo immigrants. Immigrants increase the proportion of our population that is prime-age employed.

Yet:

Quote
n 2012, 51 percent of households headed by an immigrant (legal or illegal) reported that they used at least one welfare program during the year, compared to 30 percent of native households. Welfare in this study includes Medicaid and cash, food, and housing programs.

Welfare use is high for both new arrivals and well-established immigrants. Of households headed by immigrants who have been in the country for more than two decades, 48 percent access welfare.

Welfare use varies among immigrant groups. Households headed by immigrants from Central America and Mexico (73 percent), the Caribbean (51 percent), and Africa (48 percent) have the highest overall welfare use. Those from East Asia (32 percent), Europe (26 percent), and South Asia (17 percent) have the lowest.


Immigrants do use a significant number of resources.  My guess is that legal immigrants use less than illegals and asylum seekers, but overall we should only be bringing in immigrants who can 100% support themselves and their families.

It’s probable that some immigrants are employed at low wages and collect the EITC and/or Medicaid. It’s not realistic to say that *any* population group will support itself 100%, if by that we mean no public benefits of any kind. People get sick or hurt; they lose a job or a family member. It’s also an explicit goal of public policy to incentivize people to work, even when they’re paid low wages, by providing the EITC.

On that study, which was written by an advocacy group, there have been questions. Other advocacy groups say immigrants substantially subsidize federal welfare and entitlements and are a small drain on states. https://newrepublic.com/article/122714/immigrants-dont-drain-welfare-they-fund-it.

I can’t referee that fight. It’s probably true that when people come without a lot of formal education, they’re mostly in the same position as low-education natives with poor language skills. The way our economy works, we make a lot of low-wage jobs and supplement that with cash benefits - think Walmart greeters on welfare; public benefits are part of their business model, for better or worse. We should decide how many can come in and then treat them as full citizens. And it should not be race-based - there is a long history there. Read up on the 1920s legislation. My own view is that even those with lower education/ language skills are mostly well above average in drive and willingness to work - they are an infusion of work ethic and creativity and new perspectives. So they’re worth admitting.

It does seem almost certain they’ve been a substantial boon for social security and Medicare, just because they’re young and helped smooth out demographics, filling in for the baby bust. ironically that’s one area where the system is a little corrupt; a lot of illegals pay in because they have fake SSNs but probably will never collect. I’d like whoever is here to be a full citizen; put them on the books same as everyone.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Amonkey on January 13, 2018, 06:34:50 PM
By welfare, what exactly do we mean? Are we talking government programs? Or is it food bank or thrift shops? As far as I know, federal programs that takes money from taxpayers typically paperwork, paperwork that illegal immigrants don't have. It's actually more plausible that they are paying taxes without reaping the benefits on their w2. If its from nonprofit organizations, then they're usually funded by donations and not necessarily taxpayer dollars.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Sophomore on January 13, 2018, 06:43:18 PM
By welfare, what exactly do we mean? Are we talking government programs? Or is it food bank or thrift shops? As far as I know, federal programs that takes money from taxpayers typically paperwork, paperwork that illegal immigrants don't have. It's actually more plausible that they are paying taxes without reaping the benefits on their w2. If its from nonprofit organizations, then they're usually funded by donations and not necessarily taxpayer dollars.

Pretty sure they’re counting any payment - EITC, Medicaid, TANF, food stamps, etc. People without legal documents are not eligible for most federal programs but they may have family members who are (e.g., if a child of immigrants is born in the US and is a citizen, the child might get health care under CHIP). One reason that study comes up with a high %age of benefit recipients is that households are counted as immigrant households receiving benefits if any member gets any benefit.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: byennie on January 13, 2018, 07:46:56 PM
Eh, you're interpreting this logical fallacy too broadly here, and you're also not taking into consideration the context, which you alluded to in your "formal debate" comment. From a purely formal logical perspective, sure, these types of analogical arguments are weak (or even fallacious in certain contexts) and are considered insufficient to conclusively justify an argument and prove a conclusion.

How am I not taking it into consideration when I specifically pointed out the context? I went out of my way to qualify it.

However, we're talking about practical moral reasoning here, and per the universal/consistency/equality criterion of most moral systems (i.e. moral standards should hold equally and consistently for all parties in similar circumstances), pointing out the hypocrisy of others in similar situations is absolutely a relevant component of moral debate.

Fair enough, but it's still being overused by a ridiculous margin, and also not done with any sort of precision. False equivalency comes to mind, and also fails in the moral context.

As I stated above, you're absolutely correct that this type of analogical argument is insufficient to prove a conclusion or justify a certain action or behavior, and many times it is essentially used as a "red herring" meant to deflect away from addressing the original critique of their logical argument, in which case it would certainly be a bonafide logical fallacy.

Agree =).

However, to suggest that this type of analogical argument has no place in practical moral reasoning (which is the majority of political arguments) is mistaken and shortsighted, because moral arguments of this type rely on some sort of universality and consistency in order to be enforceable and acceptable. Roy is correct in his argument that this type of analogical argument highlights the unprincipled and hypocritical nature of the opposition, because why would you find someone else's argument compelling if they weren't held to the same moral standard in a similar situation?

I agree that "no place" could be too strong, but I disagree with the premise that moral reasoning makes up the majority of political arguments. Or if it does, that's part of the problem.

So you're both correct: while these types of analogical arguments are insufficient to prove a conclusion and should not be utilized to deflect away from arguments, they are absolutely useful and relevant to practical moral reasoning, because if people are unwilling to consistently act with the same moral standards that they hold you to, then there's no reason to give any weight to their argument.

The standard being set here is critical. Instantly searching for a democrat or a republican that did something vaguely similar, and then automatically calling hypocrisy is an impossible standard. You can't demand a moral standard that neither side has a prayer of meeting, because you're talking about the lowest common denominators in a 2 party system.

EDIT: And let me just say that I *hate* that the concept of "whataboutism" has received so much attention lately. This logical concept is only relevant in certain situations with specific motivations, yet people regularly misapply it to any type of inductive analogical reasoning, which ticks me off due to how prevalent this type of logical reasoning is in human rationality.

I do see your point; however, I think you're still giving it too much credit. The whole "what about Obama/ Hillary" thing is so reflexive and shallow as to be pretty much worthless on any level. If someone wants to present a thoughtful moral argument, then sure, that has a place. It's just not what I'm seeing 99% of the time, including here.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 13, 2018, 07:57:04 PM
That's a lot of thought to put into business as usual.  Nothing to see here really, though I did catch a CNN anchor literally cry over it.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Sophomore on January 14, 2018, 08:24:50 AM
So I was looking at the above post, it cites a study from the Center For Immigration Studies (CIS), which has been labelled by the SLPC has a hate group (to some controversy), but is by its own admission, an agenda driven think-tank. The study is not one with what I'd call a decent providence.

But that said, THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE STUDY. With such a controversial topic, you'd think that at the very least, a pro-immigration think tank would offer an alternative study that pops up on a google search.

There are actually some studies on the other side. Here is a rundown. To get to the studies you have to click through. https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/addressing-common-questions-immigration

If youíre interested in use of benefits open the tab on benefits.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: indeedproceed on January 14, 2018, 08:33:02 AM
So I was looking at the above post, it cites a study from the Center For Immigration Studies (CIS), which has been labelled by the SLPC has a hate group (to some controversy), but is by its own admission, an agenda driven think-tank. The study is not one with what I'd call a decent providence.

But that said, THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE STUDY. With such a controversial topic, you'd think that at the very least, a pro-immigration think tank would offer an alternative study that pops up on a google search.

There are actually some studies on the other side. Here is a rundown. To get to the studies you have to click through. https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/addressing-common-questions-immigration

If youíre interested in use of benefits open the tab on benefits.

Hey thanks! TP
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: IDreamCeltics on January 14, 2018, 11:00:20 AM
It's amazing to me that so many people could be deeply offended by athletes quietly kneeling during the national anthem in political protest, but then not understand why the President of the United States calling the countries of origin for millions of American citizens sh#tholes is objectively a stupid/elitist/divisive thing to do.

It doesn't take a tremendous leap of imagination to put yourself in someone else's shoes. 
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Pucaccia on January 14, 2018, 12:15:51 PM
Trump didn't say it the way many on the left are hoping for.  Because of hatred for Trump, the main street media and of course the left are dying to see Trump fail even though he is doing good job(Tax Cuts and Eliminating the burdensome Obamacare mandate). They are looking for any little thing to galvanize to put Trump in a negative light and feed their narrative.  The left has nothing to offer so they try to create a narrative that Trump and his supporters are white nationalists and racist. 
Sen. Dick Durbin, who has an agenda, is the sneakiest democratic senator and Lindsay Graham who is no fan of Trump say they heard it.  Sen. Tom Cotton a military hero and Sen. David Perdue who was sitting as close to Pres. Trump as Durbin, say it was a "gross misinterpretation of what the President said.'
So I ask you honestly. Who are going to believe? The one that feeds your beliefs and hatred for Trump or what could possibly be the truth.

Because Trump is hated so much by the left and the mainstream media, this has been blown out of proportion. According to them everything he says is "Vile and racist."


I rather have someone who fights for our country and makes good policy than someone who makes nice speeches and apologizes for the country.

So when someone asks why you defend Trump, it's because the left and the mainstream media will distort and make stuff up rather that base his presidency on policy.

If you believe in bigger government , a more socialistic process and people who are here illegally should cut the line in front of people who did it legally.  State your case and lets debate it.  If you believe in smaller government and personal responsibility. We can talk about that too.

But the left and the media making up crap and misrepresenting facts doesn't get us anywhere.

By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 14, 2018, 12:34:23 PM
Also noteworthy

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-tells-african-american-audience-gop-ticket-would-put-them-back-in-chains/



Quote
@joebiden Itís not how a president should speak. Itís not how a president should behave. Most of all, itís not what a president should believe. Weíre better than this.

I'll say this, though - (and I'm hoping I'm not deflecting the thread) - Biden, Kamala Harris, Sanders, Oprah - WHOMEVER - the Democrats put forward in 2020 shouldn't say these things.

If YOU (or anyone else here) reads the article in its entirety they'll see the entire context of what Mr. Biden said.

Mr. Biden has been known as an in-your-face type of leader - that is why Pres. Obama choose him and loved him.

That is why "I" loved him and hope he runs in 2020.

But he (or anyone else running either in 2018 or 2020) simply cannot say stuff like this OR if they do they need to explain what they mean and not try to paint ALL Republicans as racist with these comments.

They will need to follow the Ralph Northam (Virginia) and ESPECIALLY the Doug Jones (Alabama) models and try to reach a BROAD SWATH of people. It can be done.

They ALSO cannot simply ATTACK Pres. Trump - this will feed into his "base". They've got to figure out ways to pull those Moderate Republicans AWAY from Trump and get the job done.

I'm hopeful that they will and this country can start coming together again.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: IDreamCeltics on January 14, 2018, 01:49:15 PM
Trump didn't say it the way many on the left are hoping for.  Because of hatred for Trump, the main street media and of course the left are dying to see Trump fail even though he is doing good job(Tax Cuts and Eliminating the burdensome Obamacare mandate). They are looking for any little thing to galvanize to put Trump in a negative light and feed their narrative.  The left has nothing to offer so they try to create a narrative that Trump and his supporters are white nationalists and racist. 
Sen. Dick Durbin, who has an agenda, is the sneakiest democratic senator and Lindsay Graham who is no fan of Trump say they heard it.  Sen. Tom Cotton a military hero and Sen. David Perdue who was sitting as close to Pres. Trump as Durbin, say it was a "gross misinterpretation of what the President said.'
So I ask you honestly. Who are going to believe? The one that feeds your beliefs and hatred for Trump or what could possibly be the truth.

Because Trump is hated so much by the left and the mainstream media, this has been blown out of proportion. According to them everything he says is "Vile and racist."


I rather have someone who fights for our country and makes good policy than someone who makes nice speeches and apologizes for the country.

So when someone asks why you defend Trump, it's because the left and the mainstream media will distort and make stuff up rather that base his presidency on policy.

If you believe in bigger government , a more socialistic process and people who are here illegally should cut the line in front of people who did it legally.  State your case and lets debate it.  If you believe in smaller government and personal responsibility. We can talk about that too.

But the left and the media making up crap and misrepresenting facts doesn't get us anywhere.

By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.


That's a very different argument than not letting people move out of those neighborhoods and into yours - which is what Trump was arguing against. 

And by the way when the president refuses to disavow nazis and KKK members for a protest where people were murdered, but is willing to call employed athletes "sons of b*tches" for a silent protest... Yes, he's pretty racist.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 14, 2018, 02:58:42 PM
Trump didn't say it the way many on the left are hoping for.  Because of hatred for Trump, the main street media and of course the left are dying to see Trump fail even though he is doing good job(Tax Cuts and Eliminating the burdensome Obamacare mandate). They are looking for any little thing to galvanize to put Trump in a negative light and feed their narrative.  The left has nothing to offer so they try to create a narrative that Trump and his supporters are white nationalists and racist. 
Sen. Dick Durbin, who has an agenda, is the sneakiest democratic senator and Lindsay Graham who is no fan of Trump say they heard it.  Sen. Tom Cotton a military hero and Sen. David Perdue who was sitting as close to Pres. Trump as Durbin, say it was a "gross misinterpretation of what the President said.'
So I ask you honestly. Who are going to believe? The one that feeds your beliefs and hatred for Trump or what could possibly be the truth.

Because Trump is hated so much by the left and the mainstream media, this has been blown out of proportion. According to them everything he says is "Vile and racist."


I rather have someone who fights for our country and makes good policy than someone who makes nice speeches and apologizes for the country.

So when someone asks why you defend Trump, it's because the left and the mainstream media will distort and make stuff up rather that base his presidency on policy.

If you believe in bigger government , a more socialistic process and people who are here illegally should cut the line in front of people who did it legally.  State your case and lets debate it.  If you believe in smaller government and personal responsibility. We can talk about that too.

But the left and the media making up crap and misrepresenting facts doesn't get us anywhere.

By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.

Being Military has little to do with it.

Being Military doesn't absolve us from biases or ignorance.

It "should" be a benchmark for a stronger set of values and pride and hardwork - as it does for MOST of us who've served.

But we ALL sometimes miss the mark. We're HUMAN.

Just a few months ago COS Kelly made a comment about the Civil War that I thought was "interesting" to say the least. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt because I like him and respect his career.

But AGAIN - that does NOT absolve ANY of us from biases or ignorance.

Just ME - on YESTERDAY in THIS thread - made a stereotype that I later apologized to Roy and Rondo2287 for. But at LEAST I did go back and willingly admitted my mistake.

Not many in Washington - right now at least - seem to do so.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 14, 2018, 03:59:15 PM
By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.
Just out of curiosity, do you also think that people from said neighborhood should be banned from buying houses where you live? Does that make you smart, or is it something else?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Erik on January 14, 2018, 06:37:18 PM
By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.

Agreed. At least it used to be until we entered the PC era in which now it's racist for the cops to patrol those neighborhoods more than low crime neighborhoods. It makes me think back to SimCity and how wrong I played mistakenly putting the police stations near high crime areas. I've seen people on TV attacking the arrest rate disparity with complaints that the cops target those areas more. Here's an idea: stop shooting people and the cops will stop coming.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: chicagoceltic on January 14, 2018, 07:18:30 PM
By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.

Agreed. At least it used to be until we entered the PC era in which now it's racist for the cops to patrol those neighborhoods more than low crime neighborhoods. It makes me think back to SimCity and how wrong I played mistakenly putting the police stations near high crime areas. I've seen people on TV attacking the arrest rate disparity with complaints that the cops target those areas more. Here's an idea: stop shooting people and the cops will stop coming.
Reading these two quotes makes me realize that the two of you just do not understand a couple of things:

First, it is not necessarily that President called these places crapholes, it is that he is questioning why we are allowing people from those countries into the United States and he wants to not allow them in just because of where they live.  Pucaccia's analogy of not wanting to walk in certain neighborhoods is not an accurate comparison to the President's words.  Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Second, Erik's comment regarding it being racist for police to patrol "those" neighborhoods more is inaccurate as well.  It is neither racist nor illegal to patrol certain neighborhoods more than others.  What is racist and illegal is racially profiling people, meaning pulling people over or questioning them based soley on how they look.  Again, there is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.


Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 14, 2018, 07:31:55 PM
By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.

Agreed. At least it used to be until we entered the PC era in which now it's racist for the cops to patrol those neighborhoods more than low crime neighborhoods. It makes me think back to SimCity and how wrong I played mistakenly putting the police stations near high crime areas. I've seen people on TV attacking the arrest rate disparity with complaints that the cops target those areas more. Here's an idea: stop shooting people and the cops will stop coming.
Reading these two quotes makes me realize that the two of you just do not understand a couple of things:

First, it is not necessarily that President called these places crapholes, it is that he is questioning why we are allowing people from those countries into the United States and he wants to not allow them in just because of where they live.  Pucaccia's analogy of not wanting to walk in certain neighborhoods is not an accurate comparison to the President's words.  Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Second, Erik's comment regarding it being racist for police to patrol "those" neighborhoods more is inaccurate as well.  It is neither racist nor illegal to patrol certain neighborhoods more than others.  What is racist and illegal is racially profiling people, meaning pulling people over or questioning them based soley on how they look.  Again, there is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Except in this scenario, they would be American citizens who had the funds to purchase a home in America.

Not coming to this country through a lottery system or chain migration with no discernable skill to come here.

Sorry, you don't have the right to come here just because you come from a craphole country.....
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on January 14, 2018, 08:33:36 PM
By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.

Agreed. At least it used to be until we entered the PC era in which now it's racist for the cops to patrol those neighborhoods more than low crime neighborhoods. It makes me think back to SimCity and how wrong I played mistakenly putting the police stations near high crime areas. I've seen people on TV attacking the arrest rate disparity with complaints that the cops target those areas more. Here's an idea: stop shooting people and the cops will stop coming.
Reading these two quotes makes me realize that the two of you just do not understand a couple of things:

First, it is not necessarily that President called these places crapholes, it is that he is questioning why we are allowing people from those countries into the United States and he wants to not allow them in just because of where they live.  Pucaccia's analogy of not wanting to walk in certain neighborhoods is not an accurate comparison to the President's words.  Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Second, Erik's comment regarding it being racist for police to patrol "those" neighborhoods more is inaccurate as well.  It is neither racist nor illegal to patrol certain neighborhoods more than others.  What is racist and illegal is racially profiling people, meaning pulling people over or questioning them based soley on how they look.  Again, there is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Except in this scenario, they would be American citizens who had the funds to purchase a home in America.

Not coming to this country through a lottery system or chain migration with no discernable skill to come here.

Sorry, you don't have the right to come here just because you come from a craphole country.....

Hilarious. It's nice to say that now that you and your ancestors are already here! Of course the only discernible skill some of our ancestors had was the ability to force others to use their skill to build this country! Always ready to keep people out AFTER you got in through no skill of your own.

It's as if some of you think you are special because you were LUCKY (no skill involved) to be born here! No empathy in your thinking at all!

All of our ancestors (not forced here) come from countries they thought were inferior to this one!

These people want a shot at a better life just as any American does. From the beginning, if you can't find what you are looking for where you are you MOVE to a place with a better opportunity to get what you are looking for!
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Erik on January 14, 2018, 08:39:40 PM
Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Lol? If I don't even want to walk in a neighborhood full of criminals due to my personal safety, why would I want them to become my neighbors? That's not ok?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Bosstown on January 14, 2018, 08:39:43 PM
By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.

Agreed. At least it used to be until we entered the PC era in which now it's racist for the cops to patrol those neighborhoods more than low crime neighborhoods. It makes me think back to SimCity and how wrong I played mistakenly putting the police stations near high crime areas. I've seen people on TV attacking the arrest rate disparity with complaints that the cops target those areas more. Here's an idea: stop shooting people and the cops will stop coming.
Reading these two quotes makes me realize that the two of you just do not understand a couple of things:

First, it is not necessarily that President called these places crapholes, it is that he is questioning why we are allowing people from those countries into the United States and he wants to not allow them in just because of where they live.  Pucaccia's analogy of not wanting to walk in certain neighborhoods is not an accurate comparison to the President's words.  Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Second, Erik's comment regarding it being racist for police to patrol "those" neighborhoods more is inaccurate as well.  It is neither racist nor illegal to patrol certain neighborhoods more than others.  What is racist and illegal is racially profiling people, meaning pulling people over or questioning them based soley on how they look.  Again, there is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Except in this scenario, they would be American citizens who had the funds to purchase a home in America.

Not coming to this country through a lottery system or chain migration with no discernable skill to come here.

Sorry, you don't have the right to come here just because you come from a craphole country.....

LOL...you know your ancestors aren't from America right? Unless you're a Native American. So you have the right because your ancestors came over and MURDERED a bunch of Natives and you just so happened to be born here? Through the luck of the birth lottery? That's weak.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 14, 2018, 08:40:58 PM
By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.

Agreed. At least it used to be until we entered the PC era in which now it's racist for the cops to patrol those neighborhoods more than low crime neighborhoods. It makes me think back to SimCity and how wrong I played mistakenly putting the police stations near high crime areas. I've seen people on TV attacking the arrest rate disparity with complaints that the cops target those areas more. Here's an idea: stop shooting people and the cops will stop coming.
Reading these two quotes makes me realize that the two of you just do not understand a couple of things:

First, it is not necessarily that President called these places crapholes, it is that he is questioning why we are allowing people from those countries into the United States and he wants to not allow them in just because of where they live.  Pucaccia's analogy of not wanting to walk in certain neighborhoods is not an accurate comparison to the President's words.  Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Second, Erik's comment regarding it being racist for police to patrol "those" neighborhoods more is inaccurate as well.  It is neither racist nor illegal to patrol certain neighborhoods more than others.  What is racist and illegal is racially profiling people, meaning pulling people over or questioning them based soley on how they look.  Again, there is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Except in this scenario, they would be American citizens who had the funds to purchase a home in America.

Not coming to this country through a lottery system or chain migration with no discernable skill to come here.

Sorry, you don't have the right to come here just because you come from a craphole country.....

Hilarious. It's nice to say that now that you and your ancestors are already here! Of course the only discernible skill some of our ancestors had was the ability to force others to use their skill to build this country! Always ready to keep people out AFTER you got in through no skill of your own.

It's as if some of you think you are special because you were LUCKY (no skill involved) to be born here! No empathy in your thinking at all!

All of our ancestors (not forced here) come from countries they thought were inferior to this one!

These people want a shot at a better life just as any American does. From the beginning, if you can't find what you are looking for where you are you MOVE to a place with a better opportunity to get what you are looking for!

So you are saying you're for open boarders? Anyone who wants to come here should be let In?

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: indeedproceed on January 14, 2018, 08:47:10 PM
Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Lol? If I don't even want to walk in a neighborhood full of criminals due to my personal safety, why would I want them to become my neighbors? That's not ok?

No man, youíre completely missing the point.

In this scenario, youíre not screening for murderers or rapists or thieves or whatever. Youíre screening against anyone from that entire neighborhood.

Which also means youíre screening against the up and coming family who have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and have the means and skills to live in your neighborhood on their own merit.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 14, 2018, 08:51:34 PM
By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.

Agreed. At least it used to be until we entered the PC era in which now it's racist for the cops to patrol those neighborhoods more than low crime neighborhoods. It makes me think back to SimCity and how wrong I played mistakenly putting the police stations near high crime areas. I've seen people on TV attacking the arrest rate disparity with complaints that the cops target those areas more. Here's an idea: stop shooting people and the cops will stop coming.
Reading these two quotes makes me realize that the two of you just do not understand a couple of things:

First, it is not necessarily that President called these places crapholes, it is that he is questioning why we are allowing people from those countries into the United States and he wants to not allow them in just because of where they live.  Pucaccia's analogy of not wanting to walk in certain neighborhoods is not an accurate comparison to the President's words.  Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Second, Erik's comment regarding it being racist for police to patrol "those" neighborhoods more is inaccurate as well.  It is neither racist nor illegal to patrol certain neighborhoods more than others.  What is racist and illegal is racially profiling people, meaning pulling people over or questioning them based soley on how they look.  Again, there is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Except in this scenario, they would be American citizens who had the funds to purchase a home in America.

Not coming to this country through a lottery system or chain migration with no discernable skill to come here.

Sorry, you don't have the right to come here just because you come from a craphole country.....

LOL...you know your ancestors aren't from America right? Unless you're a Native American. So you have the right because your ancestors came over and MURDERED a bunch of Natives and you just so happened to be born here? Through the luck of the birth lottery? That's weak.

You realize " native Americans" weren't native right?

You realize that the mass deaths that the "native Americans" was caused by disease from immigrants, and syphillis was spread to Europe through contact with "native Americans ", so it went both ways...

You realize that" native Americans" had slaves themself? And had wars with other tribes slaughtering each other?

And yes, actually I am part "Native American".... sioux to be exact....
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Erik on January 14, 2018, 08:53:04 PM
Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Lol? If I don't even want to walk in a neighborhood full of criminals due to my personal safety, why would I want them to become my neighbors? That's not ok?

No man, youíre completely missing the point.

In this scenario, youíre not screening for murderers or rapists or thieves or whatever. Youíre screening against anyone from that entire neighborhood.

Which also means youíre screening against the up and coming family who have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and have the means and skills to live in your neighborhood on their own merit.

Yes, I understand, and I'm telling you that if 50% of a neighborhood are criminals, I'd rather not take the risk of bringing any of them in because there is a 50% chance that your neighbor will be a criminal. Call me a racist, or any other kind of ist. I am a student of mathemtics and I understand a good deal vs a bad deal.

Enough is enough with this globalism. You don't have to move from a ****hole to the best country to be happy. Go to another country that is more willing to take on your "credit risk." We have every right in the world to be as selective as possible.

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: indeedproceed on January 14, 2018, 09:00:38 PM
You realize " native Americans" weren't native right?

You realize that the mass deaths that the "native Americans" was caused by disease from immigrants, and syphillis was spread to Europe through contact with "native Americans ", so it went both ways...

You realize that" native Americans" had slaves themself? And had wars with other tribes slaughtering each other?

And yes, actually I am part "Native American".... sioux to be exact....

This is pretty gross. You're trying to marginalize genocide with a combination of 'they were no angels', 'something about immigrants' and 'it's okay to say these things because I am one'. This post is pretty awful. And it's not even on topic. It's just....yeesh.

So yeah, what Donald Trump said was racist, even if he didn't mean it to be racist. You can inadvertantly say something racist.

But beyond the racist angle, why even say something like that at all? Why not attempt to express yourself while asking a question I truly hope someone would answer for him (assuming he wasn't just talking about skin color) which if I'm not wrong boils down to, "What is the quality of potential citizen we're allowing through our immigration program? Can it be improved?"

Like, that's some stuff an actual President would say. It's not something Trump would say, because he's terrible.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 14, 2018, 09:02:06 PM
.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 14, 2018, 09:06:14 PM
You realize " native Americans" weren't native right?

You realize that the mass deaths that the "native Americans" was caused by disease from immigrants, and syphillis was spread to Europe through contact with "native Americans ", so it went both ways...

You realize that" native Americans" had slaves themself? And had wars with other tribes slaughtering each other?

And yes, actually I am part "Native American".... sioux to be exact....

This is pretty gross. You're trying to marginalize genocide with a combination of 'they were no angels', 'something about immigrants' and 'it's okay to say these things because I am one'. This post is pretty awful. And it's not even on topic. It's just....yeesh.

So yeah, what Donald Trump said was racist, even if he didn't mean it to be racist. You can inadvertantly say something racist.

But beyond the racist angle, why even say something like that at all? Why not attempt to express yourself while asking a question I truly hope someone would answer for him (assuming he wasn't just talking about skin color) which if I'm not wrong boils down to, "What is the quality of potential citizen we're allowing through our immigration program? Can it be improved?"

Like, that's some stuff an actual President would say. It's not something Trump would say, because he's terrible.

Seriously grow up, and learn actual history. I've had enough of being called a racist. This is such liberal nonsense. I am mixed with many races . I am not using it in some sinister way , unlike others......



Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 14, 2018, 09:09:03 PM
Okay back to civility and get back on subject!
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on January 14, 2018, 09:15:00 PM
By the way, if I don't want to walk in certain neighborhoods because it's a craphole, that doesn't make me racist, it makes me smart.

Agreed. At least it used to be until we entered the PC era in which now it's racist for the cops to patrol those neighborhoods more than low crime neighborhoods. It makes me think back to SimCity and how wrong I played mistakenly putting the police stations near high crime areas. I've seen people on TV attacking the arrest rate disparity with complaints that the cops target those areas more. Here's an idea: stop shooting people and the cops will stop coming.
Reading these two quotes makes me realize that the two of you just do not understand a couple of things:

First, it is not necessarily that President called these places crapholes, it is that he is questioning why we are allowing people from those countries into the United States and he wants to not allow them in just because of where they live.  Pucaccia's analogy of not wanting to walk in certain neighborhoods is not an accurate comparison to the President's words.  Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Second, Erik's comment regarding it being racist for police to patrol "those" neighborhoods more is inaccurate as well.  It is neither racist nor illegal to patrol certain neighborhoods more than others.  What is racist and illegal is racially profiling people, meaning pulling people over or questioning them based soley on how they look.  Again, there is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Except in this scenario, they would be American citizens who had the funds to purchase a home in America.

Not coming to this country through a lottery system or chain migration with no discernable skill to come here.

Sorry, you don't have the right to come here just because you come from a craphole country.....

Hilarious. It's nice to say that now that you and your ancestors are already here! Of course the only discernible skill some of our ancestors had was the ability to force others to use their skill to build this country! Always ready to keep people out AFTER you got in through no skill of your own.

It's as if some of you think you are special because you were LUCKY (no skill involved) to be born here! No empathy in your thinking at all!

All of our ancestors (not forced here) come from countries they thought were inferior to this one!

These people want a shot at a better life just as any American does. From the beginning, if you can't find what you are looking for where you are you MOVE to a place with a better opportunity to get what you are looking for!

So you are saying you're for open boarders? Anyone who wants to come here should be let In?

LOL. So this is where we are going?

No. I just don't think I'm better than these people all because I was LUCKY to be born here! WHERE they are from has no baring on whether I think they should be allowed in. Most people that want in are just looking for a better life, I'm not going to stick my nose up at that. I really don't care who we let in as long as they aren't committing crimes. I just don't see myself getting mad at people for "taking" jobs we don't even want either. No, I don't care if they aren't smart enough to build more bombs for us or if they are the next Steve Jobs. If they aren't hurting anyone, the more the merrier IMO.

Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Vermont Green on January 14, 2018, 09:15:31 PM
I can't believe that we have reached a point in American politics where there is actually a debate about whether or not it is OK for the president to call 3rd world countries xxxx-holes.  No matter what your political opinion on immigration lotteries or visas or whatever, really?  People are going to defend this?

I personally do not agree that we should only accept immigrants from wealthy countries but if those of you who disagree with that and want to have a serious debate about American immigration policy, the only way to do that is to eliminate the hyperbolic narratives; things like liberals what to let in anybody (no, all immigrants are vetted no matter where they are from) and yes statements like all 3rd world countries are xxxx-holes.

This only polarizes the discussion which is what I think Trump is really trying to do anyway.  It doesn't help the cause, even if your cause is Trump, to make excuses for this nonsense.

BTW, Trump created this mess when he rescinded Obama's executive order.  The republicans could have passed legislation then to fix this and they could now.  It is not really that hard.  I think Trump believed that if he sunset this, it would force congress to pass something.  Not an unreasonable plan.  But if this blows up, it is on Trump, not the democrats.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 14, 2018, 09:18:53 PM
Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Lol? If I don't even want to walk in a neighborhood full of criminals due to my personal safety, why would I want them to become my neighbors? That's not ok?

No man, youíre completely missing the point.

In this scenario, youíre not screening for murderers or rapists or thieves or whatever. Youíre screening against anyone from that entire neighborhood.

Which also means youíre screening against the up and coming family who have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and have the means and skills to live in your neighborhood on their own merit.

Yes, I understand, and I'm telling you that if 50% of a neighborhood are criminals, I'd rather not take the risk of bringing any of them in because there is a 50% chance that your neighbor will be a criminal. Call me a racist, or any other kind of ist. I am a student of mathemtics and I understand a good deal vs a bad deal.

Enough is enough with this globalism. You don't have to move from a ****hole to the best country to be happy. Go to another country that is more willing to take on your "credit risk." We have every right in the world to be as selective as possible.

Just out of curiosity, where did your immigrant ancestors come from? Were their homelands in good shape or bad shape when they came here? Were they highly trained and wealthy or closer to impoverished and undereducated? Did they parachute right to the top of the economic ladder or start at the bottom and bust their butts so their kids and grandkids could climb out? It's great if it was the former for you but for me and most Americans it's a lot closer to the latter.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: chicagoceltic on January 14, 2018, 09:20:38 PM
Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Lol? If I don't even want to walk in a neighborhood full of criminals due to my personal safety, why would I want them to become my neighbors? That's not ok?
No, being predjudiced against a group of people soley because of where they live is not ok.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: KGs Knee on January 14, 2018, 09:22:42 PM
I can't believe that we have reached a point in American politics where there is actually a debate about whether or not it is OK for the president to call 3rd world countries xxxx-holes.  No matter what your political opinion on immigration lotteries or visas or whatever, really?  People are going to defend this?

I personally do not agree that we should only accept immigrants from wealthy countries but if those of you who disagree with that and want to have a serious debate about American immigration policy, the only way to do that is to eliminate the hyperbolic narratives; things like liberals what to let in anybody (no, all immigrants are vetted no matter where they are from) and yes statements like all 3rd world countries are xxxx-holes.

This only polarizes the discussion which is what I think Trump is really trying to do anyway.  It doesn't help the cause, even if your cause is Trump, to make excuses for this nonsense.

BTW, Trump created this mess when he rescinded Obama's executive order.  The republicans could have passed legislation then to fix this and they could now.  It is not really that hard.  I think Trump believed that if he sunset this, it would force congress to pass something.  Not an unreasonable plan.  But if this blows up, it is on Trump, not the democrats.

That goes both ways.

Labeling anyone and everyone who disagrees with a POV with one of the family of 'isms' or 'ias' is the quickest way to end a debate.

People need to quit it with the soapboxing, on both sides.  Nobody is going to give that type of talk any weight.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: KGs Knee on January 14, 2018, 09:25:59 PM
Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Lol? If I don't even want to walk in a neighborhood full of criminals due to my personal safety, why would I want them to become my neighbors? That's not ok?
No, being predjudiced against a group of people soley because of where they live is not ok.

There's a fine line between prejudice and discretion that is often rather blurry.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: rondohondo on January 14, 2018, 09:42:48 PM
I can't believe that we have reached a point in American politics where there is actually a debate about whether or not it is OK for the president to call 3rd world countries xxxx-holes.  No matter what your political opinion on immigration lotteries or visas or whatever, really?  People are going to defend this?

I personally do not agree that we should only accept immigrants from wealthy countries but if those of you who disagree with that and want to have a serious debate about American immigration policy, the only way to do that is to eliminate the hyperbolic narratives; things like liberals what to let in anybody (no, all immigrants are vetted no matter where they are from) and yes statements like all 3rd world countries are xxxx-holes.

This only polarizes the discussion which is what I think Trump is really trying to do anyway.  It doesn't help the cause, even if your cause is Trump, to make excuses for this nonsense.

BTW, Trump created this mess when he rescinded Obama's executive order.  The republicans could have passed legislation then to fix this and they could now.  It is not really that hard.  I think Trump believed that if he sunset this, it would force congress to pass something.  Not an unreasonable plan.  But if this blows up, it is on Trump, not the democrats.

That goes both ways.

Labeling anyone and everyone who disagrees with a POV with one of the family of 'isms' or 'ias' is the quickest way to end a debate.

People need to quit it with the soapboxing, on both sides.  Nobody is going to give that type of talk any weight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkkKzKAa7-w&app=desktop
Exactly.....

Warning strong language and grandstanding
 ;)
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Erik on January 14, 2018, 11:10:04 PM
Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Lol? If I don't even want to walk in a neighborhood full of criminals due to my personal safety, why would I want them to become my neighbors? That's not ok?

No man, youíre completely missing the point.

In this scenario, youíre not screening for murderers or rapists or thieves or whatever. Youíre screening against anyone from that entire neighborhood.

Which also means youíre screening against the up and coming family who have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and have the means and skills to live in your neighborhood on their own merit.

Yes, I understand, and I'm telling you that if 50% of a neighborhood are criminals, I'd rather not take the risk of bringing any of them in because there is a 50% chance that your neighbor will be a criminal. Call me a racist, or any other kind of ist. I am a student of mathemtics and I understand a good deal vs a bad deal.

Enough is enough with this globalism. You don't have to move from a ****hole to the best country to be happy. Go to another country that is more willing to take on your "credit risk." We have every right in the world to be as selective as possible.

Just out of curiosity, where did your immigrant ancestors come from? Were their homelands in good shape or bad shape when they came here? Were they highly trained and wealthy or closer to impoverished and undereducated? Did they parachute right to the top of the economic ladder or start at the bottom and bust their butts so their kids and grandkids could climb out? It's great if it was the former for you but for me and most Americans it's a lot closer to the latter.

This is the type of argument that is divisive and swarming with class warfare, which unfortunately is the new liberal movement and why I exited after being a registered democrat for 15 years. The argument is whether or not the expected value of a random Norwegian to America is higher than someone from Haiti. Instead you want to turn it into a subject of "if you think this way, you are insulting my family who worked hard to make it." Look at the subject objectively as two Americans who have a shared interest in American success. We have a desirable product and have the right to be stringent with it. It is not our job to solve the worlds problems. The president of the US is like the CEO of a corporation. He has to do what's best for our citizens. Things like a lottery are complete nonsense because you're treating two unequally qualified people equally, and objectivity doesn't work that way. Put another way, just because your family or my family busted their butts and made it doesn't mean that we couldn't have gotten better people or it was an ideal situation.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: kozlodoev on January 14, 2018, 11:45:56 PM
The argument is whether or not the expected value of a random Norwegian to America is higher than someone from Haiti. Instead you want to turn it into a subject of "if you think this way, you are insulting my family who worked hard to make it."
:
No, the argument is that people don't quite understand the "expected value" you're talking about. Hint: that's not the same thing as the education level of the first-generation immigrant.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: byennie on January 15, 2018, 01:13:03 AM
This is the type of argument that is divisive and swarming with class warfare, which unfortunately is the new liberal movement and why I exited after being a registered democrat for 15 years. The argument is whether or not the expected value of a random Norwegian to America is higher than someone from Haiti.

I would argue that the "expected value" for practically all of American history has not been based on the current wealth of the immigrant. That's what is so jarring to me: The American Dream is being quite literally turned on its head when you explicitly prioritize keeping out poor people from "****holes".

Mixing Bowl, American Dream, Land of Opportunity, those terms weren't born from Norwegian immigration.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: byennie on January 15, 2018, 01:15:21 AM
Put another way, just because your family or my family busted their butts and made it doesn't mean that we couldn't have gotten better people or it was an ideal situation.

I get what you're saying here, but isn't that a big helping of "we got ours", so we can now throw out American values for higher corporate profits (using your CEO analogy)?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: More Banners on January 15, 2018, 07:30:25 AM
It's totally weird.

I actually have ancestors from Norway.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 15, 2018, 08:04:10 AM
This is the type of argument that is divisive and swarming with class warfare, which unfortunately is the new liberal movement and why I exited after being a registered democrat for 15 years. The argument is whether or not the expected value of a random Norwegian to America is higher than someone from Haiti.

I would argue that the "expected value" for practically all of American history has not been based on the current wealth of the immigrant. That's what is so jarring to me: The American Dream is being quite literally turned on its head when you explicitly prioritize keeping out poor people from "****holes".

Mixing Bowl, American Dream, Land of Opportunity, those terms weren't born from Norwegian immigration.

Thereís a huge difference between 2017 and 1847.  If the Constitution can ďevolveĒ over time, why canít our immigration policy?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Erik on January 15, 2018, 09:08:41 AM
Put another way, just because your family or my family busted their butts and made it doesn't mean that we couldn't have gotten better people or it was an ideal situation.

I get what you're saying here, but isn't that a big helping of "we got ours", so we can now throw out American values for higher corporate profits (using your CEO analogy)?

Yes to a helping of we got ours, no to American values. American values has nothing to do with immigration. Americans immigrated here, but it doesn't mean that we must take immigrants at all times otherwise we won't be able to survive or be happy. Freedom is an American value. I never understood the basic premise... do we even need more immigrants? In a world of overpopulation there is something to be said about land per capita as a resource. As far as we got ours, are you also mad that our ancestors were able to buy up all of the undeveloped land and you can't find a reasonable dot com domain anymore? That newton and Einstein discovered all of the good stuff and we're stuck trying to invent things that make us dumber and fatter? To those who didn't buy in on America in the 20th century, you missed the boat. The bitcoin isn't $5 anymore.

I view immigration as a method to improve our society, not just some concept thrown around to call ourselves patriots. I have a very strict test. I'm not sure that I can put it into words right now, but the color of the persons skin is not one of the questions. It sure as hell is not a random lottery, though. That's the worst way to do it. You're just getting the EV of a random person in a country that isn't a complete screwup. For Haiti, there's a 40% chance that person cannot read and write. His kids will be fine, but we have to foot the bill for a project when we could have just "drafted the better player."
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 15, 2018, 11:04:36 AM
Not wanting to walk in a certain neighborhood is one thing, not wanting to allow people who live in those neighborhoods to move into your neighborhood just because of where the currently live is another.  There is a clear difference between the two and one is ok and the other is not.

Lol? If I don't even want to walk in a neighborhood full of criminals due to my personal safety, why would I want them to become my neighbors? That's not ok?

No man, youíre completely missing the point.

In this scenario, youíre not screening for murderers or rapists or thieves or whatever. Youíre screening against anyone from that entire neighborhood.

Which also means youíre screening against the up and coming family who have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps and have the means and skills to live in your neighborhood on their own merit.

Yes, I understand, and I'm telling you that if 50% of a neighborhood are criminals, I'd rather not take the risk of bringing any of them in because there is a 50% chance that your neighbor will be a criminal. Call me a racist, or any other kind of ist. I am a student of mathemtics and I understand a good deal vs a bad deal.

Enough is enough with this globalism. You don't have to move from a ****hole to the best country to be happy. Go to another country that is more willing to take on your "credit risk." We have every right in the world to be as selective as possible.

Just out of curiosity, where did your immigrant ancestors come from? Were their homelands in good shape or bad shape when they came here? Were they highly trained and wealthy or closer to impoverished and undereducated? Did they parachute right to the top of the economic ladder or start at the bottom and bust their butts so their kids and grandkids could climb out? It's great if it was the former for you but for me and most Americans it's a lot closer to the latter.

This is the type of argument that is divisive and swarming with class warfare, which unfortunately is the new liberal movement and why I exited after being a registered democrat for 15 years.

Lol, off to a good start. Not sure how asking what your immigrant ancestors were like is "class warfare" but sorry for offending.

Quote
The argument is whether or not the expected value of a random Norwegian to America is higher than someone from Haiti.


No it's not. Immigrants are not a random sample, nor do we recruit them. Averages are less relevant than variability, and whether people fall above whatever imaginary line we choose to draw.  The issue is whether what country someone is from makes them have more or less "merit" as a person. I say they don't and we're more than capable of judging people who want to immigrate as individuals.


Quote
Instead you want to turn it into a subject of "if you think this way, you are insulting my family who worked hard to make it."

No I don't. I'm saying we all descended from immigrants, and for people who dislike immigrants, most of them would've failed their descendants' own standards. Especially ones that have to do with coming from a troubled place, because that's exactly what makes people want to uproot their lives to seek something better.

Quote
Look at the subject objectively as two Americans who have a shared interest in American success. We have a desirable product and have the right to be stringent with it. It is not our job to solve the worlds problems. The president of the US is like the CEO of a corporation. He has to do what's best for our citizens.

I disagree completely with the premise here, but more importantly one dirty little secret of the immigration debate is that our native birthrate is such that we absolutely need immigration to stay competitive. There's a reason the Trump admin only releases cost estimates for immigrants, refugees, etc - it's because whenever they do a more objective cost/benefit analysis America always comes out ahead.


Quote
Things like a lottery are complete nonsense because you're treating two unequally qualified people equally, and objectivity doesn't work that way.

This is a different subject, and I have mixed feelings about it. What I will say is that a key part of attempting objectivity is realizing that making vague value judgments like "more merit" have historically become infected with irrelevant social biases in about half a second. Such as what country someone happens to have been born in.

Quote
Put another way, just because your family or my family busted their butts and made it doesn't mean that we couldn't have gotten better people or it was an ideal situation.

I think people willing to work hard to pull their way up from the bottom are better for society, and right in line with our ideals, just as they've been in every other generation. Economically an active, upwardly mobile low class is a powerful thing.

We're a nation of immigrants that hates immigrants, and it's been true for basically our entire history. The reasons given are always the same - crime, disease, poverty, free-loading...in coarser times the idea of "stealing" "our" women would come up. Race plays some role in it, especially these days, but we've demonized other generations of immigrants for religion, language, specific ethnicities. But it's always been there. There were people who wanted to keep your immigrant ancestors out of the country, and mine, and they made similar arguments to do it. They were wrong, and I'm glad they didn't get their way. I hope you don't get yours either.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 15, 2018, 11:17:52 AM
Haha, apparently the denials of Cotton + Perdue, several days after they "couldn't recall" what was said, are based on them "recalling" that the President of the United States called the continent of Africa "bleepHOUSE countries" rather than "bleepHOLE" countries.

This has to be the single dumbest time in American history.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Vermont Green on January 15, 2018, 12:14:11 PM
I can't believe that we have reached a point in American politics where there is actually a debate about whether or not it is OK for the president to call 3rd world countries xxxx-holes.  No matter what your political opinion on immigration lotteries or visas or whatever, really?  People are going to defend this?

I personally do not agree that we should only accept immigrants from wealthy countries but if those of you who disagree with that and want to have a serious debate about American immigration policy, the only way to do that is to eliminate the hyperbolic narratives; things like liberals what to let in anybody (no, all immigrants are vetted no matter where they are from) and yes statements like all 3rd world countries are xxxx-holes.

This only polarizes the discussion which is what I think Trump is really trying to do anyway.  It doesn't help the cause, even if your cause is Trump, to make excuses for this nonsense.

BTW, Trump created this mess when he rescinded Obama's executive order.  The republicans could have passed legislation then to fix this and they could now.  It is not really that hard.  I think Trump believed that if he sunset this, it would force congress to pass something.  Not an unreasonable plan.  But if this blows up, it is on Trump, not the democrats.

That goes both ways.

Labeling anyone and everyone who disagrees with a POV with one of the family of 'isms' or 'ias' is the quickest way to end a debate.

People need to quit it with the soapboxing, on both sides.  Nobody is going to give that type of talk any weight.

So you agree that Trump was out of line to say the xxxx-hole countries as well as to refer to Mexican immigrants in general as rapists, and the countless other statements along the same lines?

Can you give me an example of a mainstream mischaracterization of immigration policy that the democrats promote on a regular basis, as part of their platform?

There probably are some but by and large it is the republicans that have become the party where the message itself is to obscure the facts. How many people hear Trump's statement and think that all the immigrants from 3rd world countries are unvetted criminals who are coming here to mouch off hard working Americans?  Do you believe that?  Do you think it is an accurate way to frame the immigration debate?  You see comments above that are equating this to neighborhoods where there is so much crime that they wouldn't walk in there.  Clearly (to me) this is the picture that Trump has and is trying to paint.

And please, no more "the democrats do it too".  This is a question about Trump and his statements and policies.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: liam on January 15, 2018, 09:59:11 PM
Haha, apparently the denials of Cotton + Perdue, several days after they "couldn't recall" what was said, are based on them "recalling" that the President of the United States called the continent of Africa "bleepHOUSE countries" rather than "bleepHOLE" countries.

This has to be the single dumbest time in American history.

It's definitely top 5 and climbing...

http://www.collegehumor.com/post/7045873/why-every-us-president-sucked-bad
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: indeedproceed on January 16, 2018, 07:35:50 PM
Here is an example of the idiocy of whataboutism:

Quote
Q: Do you think itís acceptable to call any country an s-house country or an s-hole country?

COTTON: "Well, @LindseyGrahamSC called Mexico a hell-hole in a public hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee five years ago."

https://twitter.com/frankthorp/status/953424719717523457?s=17
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 16, 2018, 07:50:22 PM
Here is an example of the idiocy of whataboutism:

Quote
Q: Do you think itís acceptable to call any country an s-house country or an s-hole country?

COTTON: "Well, @LindseyGrahamSC called Mexico a hell-hole in a public hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee five years ago."

https://twitter.com/frankthorp/status/953424719717523457?s=17

This is going around the circuit -- heard a republican commentator use it today on CNN BUT he attributed the hell-hole remark to Dick Durbin.   They need to get the story straight.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: KGs Knee on January 17, 2018, 01:36:41 AM

So you agree that Trump was out of line to say the xxxx-hole countries as well as to refer to Mexican immigrants in general as rapists, and the countless other statements along the same lines?


Yes, I do agree it was wrong of the President to use that kind of language each and every time.  I've never said otherwise.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: Roy H. on January 17, 2018, 02:58:13 AM
Here is an example of the idiocy of whataboutism:

Quote
Q: Do you think itís acceptable to call any country an s-house country or an s-hole country?

COTTON: "Well, @LindseyGrahamSC called Mexico a hell-hole in a public hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee five years ago."

https://twitter.com/frankthorp/status/953424719717523457?s=17

This is going around the circuit -- heard a republican commentator use it today on CNN BUT he attributed the hell-hole remark to Dick Durbin.   They need to get the story straight.

Itís amazing how sanctimonious they all get, though.  Dick Durbin: ďI cannot believe in this history of the White House, in that Oval Office, any president has ever spoken the words that I personally heard our president speak yesterday.Ē. Lol.

I wasnít offended by the President using colorful language in private. The fake outrage of Durbin and the weepy news anchors cracks me up. Iím much more concerned by those Senators who seem willing to lie to cover for Trump, though.
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: nickagneta on January 17, 2018, 03:27:41 AM
Norwegians have:

Universal healthcare
5 weeks paid vacation
1 year parental leave
Free 4 year universities
Pay equality
Free birth control
Strict gun control laws

And

You are 90% less likely to be in prison
76% less likely to be murdered
84% less likely to contact AID$
Most likely to make 5% more money

And have 27% more free time for yourself and your family


Why would a Norwegian ever want to come to a sh!thole country like America!?!?
Title: Re: Trump uses expletive to describe countries that we have immigrants from
Post by: OnPoint on January 17, 2018, 04:26:42 AM
Norwegians have:

Universal healthcare
5 weeks paid vacation
1 year parental leave
Free 4 year universities
Pay equality
Free birth control
Strict gun control laws

And

You are 90% less likely to be in prison
76% less likely to be murdered
84% less likely to contact AID$
Most likely to make 5% more money

And have 27% more free time for yourself and your family


Why would a Norwegian ever want to come to a sh!thole country like America!?!?

Yes, a small, monolithic, high IQ population with a ton of oil is usually going to do quite well in this world. Especially when countries like the United States and Japan are around to push technological innovations forward.

Quote
Meanwhile, the Norwegians seem to have lost their parsimonious, workaholic, Lutheran mojo. Norwegians treat Friday as a ďfree dayĒ and take more sick leave than anyone else in Europe, if not the world ó a law enshrines their right to claim sick days even while on holiday. And they donít want to work in fish-processing factories anymore. Theyíve delegated that to cheap foreign laborers, while, at the same time, the popularity of the right-wing, anti-immigration Progress Party indicates declining tolerance for those very outsiders.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/stop-the-scandimania-nordic-nations-arent-the-utopias-theyre-made-out-to-be/2015/01/16/8f818408-9aa0-11e4-a7ee-526210d665b4_story.html?utm_term=.76c772e6b106

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBgfK9NQmKw