CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: DefenseWinsChamps on January 11, 2018, 12:28:57 PM

Title: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on January 11, 2018, 12:28:57 PM
https://treytalkssports.com/2018/01/11/my-outrageous-green-tinted-best-case-scenario-player-comparison-for-jayson-tatum/

When I watched Tatum highlights from high school, I saw Gerald Henderson. When I watching him in college, I saw prime Danny Granger. When I watched him in summer league, I worried that his athleticism and strength would keep him back from being as good as Danny Granger.

But during the regular season against real NBA athletes and in Brad Stevens’ system, Tatum has looked like a really good athlete.

One night he dunks over Karl Anthony-Towns. Another night he blocks Frank Kaminsky’s 3. Another night he picks Wes Matthews pocket for a break-away dunk. Another night he closes a game in the 4th with a tomahawk slam after a one-dribble drive-by.

He looks all of 6’9” with a 7’4” wingspan. He looks like he has the body to (slowly) fill out to be at least 230 without losing athleticism. He has the quick first step to beat his man. He has back-to-the-basket moves. He has a high finish on his jumpshot that is impossible to block. He has the 3 point shooting. He has the ability to draw fouls.

My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Ceiling Comparison: Kevin Durant
Through 43 games, Jayson Tatum is averaging

14 points, 6 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 block, and 1 steal on 50-46-83 shooting splits.

Through 43 games, Rookie Durant averaged

19 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 block, and 1 steal on 40-28-87 shooting splits.

The main difference is usage. Durant had the ball a lot more, which means his points were higher but his efficiency was lower. The other main difference is rebounding, which may be partially due to Durant playing guard his rookie year (PJ Carlesimo!).

But they play an almost identical game. They can drive with long strides to get to the basket quickly. They can post up with a variety of moves and fade-aways. They can shoot the 3. They can handle the ball. Their bodies are remarkably similar at the same stage. Both have a confidence, not cockiness, in their abilities. They are both calm in their demeanor. They both effect the game on both sides of the ball and know how to use their length defensively.

They took different paths in college to the pros, but Tatum is the closest thing I’ve seen to young Durant. I will hedge no bets. I will not take off my green-tinted glasses. Tatum’s ceiling is Kevin Durant!
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: CelticsElite on January 11, 2018, 12:40:47 PM
It’s not outrageous. A few people here actually have had the same player comparison of Durant. I agree 100% that he can reach the Durant level.  For this reason, Tatum must be untouchable in trade offers.

Imagine the looks Tatum will get when Hayward comes arrive
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Monkhouse on January 11, 2018, 12:41:02 PM
TP for the work into info and stats, but I still don't see it. Kevin Durant is freakishly long, and is finally using his length on defense. He has shown he can be a NBA leading scorer with two way capabilities. I like Tatum, but I don't think he'll have the same resume as KD. You're basically stating that Tatum would be the 2nd or 3rd best player in the NBA. I think we have to be realistic.

I do think Tatum will be a hybrid of Granger, George and Pierce. Plus Durant is basically 7 foot to me.

Not to derail your thread but my outrageous comparison for Jaylen Brown is an more athletic Klay Thompson. Although JB is not the complete shooter Klay was, he's still younger and shown he has a great shooting stroke.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Sophomore on January 11, 2018, 12:43:36 PM
TP!

I want to believe!



Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: seancally on January 11, 2018, 12:48:57 PM
Not outrageous - I'm inclined to agree. I think he looks more Durant than Pierce, for what it's worth.

Quote
Not to derail your thread but my outrageous comparison for Jaylen Brown is an more athletic Klay Thompson.

I think Jaylen is more Jimmy Buckets than Klay. Not the sexy choice since it's been said a hundred times, but I'd be cool with Durant, Butler to go along with Kyrie, Al and Gordon  ;D
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on January 11, 2018, 01:42:25 PM
Not outrageous - I'm inclined to agree. I think he looks more Durant than Pierce, for what it's worth.

Quote
Not to derail your thread but my outrageous comparison for Jaylen Brown is an more athletic Klay Thompson.

I think Jaylen is more Jimmy Buckets than Klay. Not the sexy choice since it's been said a hundred times, but I'd be cool with Durant, Butler to go along with Kyrie, Al and Gordon  ;D

Brown will be an interesting guy (I'm sure I'll do one in the future on him). Two things potentially keep him from being Butler: 1) Usage - he will be the 4th fiddle on our team when Hayward gets back, and 2) ball-handling - Butler is a primary ball-handler, but I struggle to ever see Brown in that role.

The Klay Thompson one is interesting, not because I think Brown will ever be as good of a shooter as Thompson, but because I could see him playing off of other celtic ball-handlers to get his buckets like Klay does. Klay Thompson is an elite shot-finisher, not shot-creator. I think Brown could likewise be an elite shot-finisher, but not an elite shot-creator. I also think he is already a better defender than Klay.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: CFAN38 on January 11, 2018, 01:45:35 PM
not to dump water on the Tatum could be Durant post but I have a couple observations. First let me say not a huge fan of pure player comps because very few players play the same role on offense and defense with the same physical tools and the same skill set. There have been a few exceptions namely Kobe so closely mimicking Jordan's game. Rather then looking for a pure comp (i posted this in the draft section as well) I like to find a player comparable role on offense, on defense, physical attributes, and skill set.

I will say that Tatum could some day fill a Durant like offensive role

On defense Durant has turned himself into a rim protecting 4, while Tatum blocks shots he is not a rim protector in the traditional penetration stopping sense of the role. I do think that Tatum will be a better 1 vs 1 perimeter defender then Durant if he keeps up his focus and intensity.

Physically
Durant is much bigger, sadly ESPN killed DX measurement data based so that reference is gone. However as I recall Durant was 6'10 with a 7'4 wingspan at draft time. reports are that he was grown and is now around 7'. (Team USA photos show he is taller then Boogie and AD). Tatum while still growing can into the league at 6'8 with a 7' wingspan. I will give it to you that he appears to have grown but I would cap at around 6'9 with 7'1" wingspan. In terms of physical comp I think Paul George is a better fit.

In terms of Skill set I still like the Paul Pierce comp. His ability to score in pure isolation, post up and in the flow of the offense is reminiscent of a prime big 3 Pierce. He doesn't have the same strength as pierce so his moves are all more finesse based but the general idea is the same.


Bottom Line I could see 2-3 from now Tatum as a 25ppg scorer starting in the All-Star game





Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on January 11, 2018, 01:52:05 PM
not to dump water on the Tatum could be Durant post but I have a couple observations. First let me say not a huge fan of pure player comps because very few players play the same role on offense and defense with the same physical tools and the same skill set. There have been a few exceptions namely Kobe so closely mimicking Jordan's game. Rather then looking for a pure comp (i posted this in the draft section as well) I like to find a player comparable role on offense, on defense, physical attributes, and skill set.

I will say that Tatum could some day fill a Durant like offensive role

On defense Durant has turned himself into a rim protecting 4, while Tatum blocks shots he is not a rim protector in the traditional penetration stopping sense of the role. I do think that Tatum will be a better 1 vs 1 perimeter defender then Durant if he keeps up his focus and intensity.

Physically
Durant is much bigger, sadly ESPN killed DX measurement data based so that reference is gone. However as I recall Durant was 6'10 with a 7'4 wingspan at draft time. reports are that he was grown and is now around 7'. (Team USA photos show he is taller then Boogie and AD). Tatum while still growing can into the league at 6'8 with a 7' wingspan. I will give it to you that he appears to have grown but I would cap at around 6'9 with 7'1" wingspan. In terms of physical comp I think Paul George is a better fit.

In terms of Skill set I still like the Paul Pierce comp. His ability to score in pure isolation, post up and in the flow of the offense is reminiscent of a prime big 3 Pierce. He doesn't have the same strength as pierce so his moves are all more finesse based but the general idea is the same.


Bottom Line I could see 2-3 from now Tatum as a 25ppg scorer starting in the All-Star game

I mean, we probably don't see eye to eye on some of this. My memory says Durant came in at 6'9''. He may have grown to 7', but so may Tatum.

The last measurement taken of Tatum before the draft was in 2016, when he was 6'8''. I think its a reasonable possibility that he grew since then.

Durant could not consistently play defense in the post early in his career either, but he learned. Tatum could have (and I'm arguing he will have) a similar trajectory.

Edit: Still, there is room for disagreement. Good thoughts!
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: JBcat on January 11, 2018, 02:12:27 PM
Not outrageous - I'm inclined to agree. I think he looks more Durant than Pierce, for what it's worth.

Quote
Not to derail your thread but my outrageous comparison for Jaylen Brown is an more athletic Klay Thompson.

I think Jaylen is more Jimmy Buckets than Klay. Not the sexy choice since it's been said a hundred times, but I'd be cool with Durant, Butler to go along with Kyrie, Al and Gordon  ;D

Both Jimmy And Klay play more below the rim than Jaylen does.  How about Clyde Drexler if everything comes together for Jaylen?
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 11, 2018, 03:13:01 PM
I think a middle-class man's Kevin Durant is a pretty realistic ceiling for Tatum and a very complimentary one.

I'd like to see him make the leap to a full-fledged star before I'd compare him to the real thing.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Big333223 on January 11, 2018, 03:53:59 PM
Looking at what he's done as a rookie, knowing he's only 19, understanding that when we're talking about ceilings, we're talking about how good a guy reasonably can be, not necessarily will be, I'd say his ceiling is Kevin Durant and I don't see any reason, so far, he can't reach that ceiling.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: CelticsElite on January 11, 2018, 03:58:55 PM
Looking at what he's done as a rookie, knowing he's only 19, understanding that when we're talking about ceilings, we're talking about how good a guy reasonably can be, not necessarily will be, I'd say his ceiling is Kevin Durant and I don't see any reason, so far, he can't reach that ceiling.
exactly. Like many all time greats, Tatum has made noise especially by leading the entire league in 3pt% among many other stats
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: keevsnick on January 11, 2018, 04:05:19 PM
Ya I mean could he be Kevin Durant? Sure. But the odds of that are exceedingly low. Not because Tatum hasn't been great, but because Kevin Durant is one of the three best players in the league, an MVP candidate and may very well finish up as an all time great. I think a better comparison is Paul George. Maybe not quite as good defensively, but a little more efficient offensively. They have similar body types and even similar athleticism.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: keevsnick on January 11, 2018, 04:06:30 PM
So maybe he has like a 10% of being a Durant level player but like a 50+% chance of being a George level player. Either way he's gonna be good.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: MasterEmile on January 11, 2018, 04:17:51 PM
I always argued that Tatums's floor was Paul George and his ceiling is Kevin Durant.

For brown it's floor Jimmy Butler and ceiling Kawhi Leonard.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Roy H. on January 11, 2018, 04:20:49 PM
I always argued that Tatums's floor was Paul George and his ceiling is Kevin Durant.

For brown it's floor Jimmy Butler and ceiling Kawhi Leonard.

I think we have a very different definition of “floor”.

What was, say, Tyreke Evans’ floor after his rookie year? 
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Moranis on January 11, 2018, 04:25:38 PM
I always argued that Tatums's floor was Paul George and his ceiling is Kevin Durant.

For brown it's floor Jimmy Butler and ceiling Kawhi Leonard.

I think we have a very different definition of “floor”.

What was, say, Tyreke Evans’ floor after his rookie year?
I think if you said his "best case scenario floor" that would make both your posts mesh.  So in a best case scenario, Tatum will be no worse than George but could be as good as Durant. 
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: keevsnick on January 11, 2018, 04:29:24 PM
I always argued that Tatums's floor was Paul George and his ceiling is Kevin Durant.

For brown it's floor Jimmy Butler and ceiling Kawhi Leonard.

I think we have a very different definition of “floor”.

What was, say, Tyreke Evans’ floor after his rookie year?

Ya, to say anyone's floor is Paul George or Jimmy Butler is insane, those are  top 10-15 players in this league. The odds are actually against either Tatum or Brown being that good. Floor is more like "What if they have around Marginal to Average improvement from where they are now for players of their age?" Maybe you could say Iguodala for Brown and Granger for Tatum, but maybe that's even rosy.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Sophomore on January 11, 2018, 05:40:58 PM
Watching Tatum rise up over Embiid and drop in that arcing jump shot? Watching him go around Simmons and put in a reverse layup while Simmons and Embiid had to just watch? Yes. I see the Durant comparison.

People are saying he isn’t Durant or George now? You can’t ever be sure? Of course. That’s a truism. But watch him and ask can he be at that level? The talent and the mental makeup both say YES!
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: greece66 on January 11, 2018, 06:38:57 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/2OggKej.jpg)
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: mctyson on January 11, 2018, 08:57:27 PM
It’s not outrageous. A few people here actually have had the same player comparison of Durant. I agree 100% that he can reach the Durant level.  For this reason, Tatum must be untouchable in trade offers.

Imagine the looks Tatum will get when Hayward comes arrive

I don't think it is crazy but if I am not mistaken Durant is taller and longer.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 11, 2018, 09:29:13 PM
He is special.

I watched him take over the game today in the 3rd. He's done this several times now this season.

I saw Pierce do this back in the day.

He doesn't (as yet) seem to be as good a facilitator as PP was but this will surely come for him.

He seems to play within the game and I know he's still trying to learn it - which is scary (for our opponents).

Our nightmare 2-4 lineup of JB, GH and JT will be devastating for opponents. This is not even taking into account Big Al and Kyrie.

Coach Brad Steven's goal of Position-less Basketball is coming to fruition.

But yeah Durant comparisons as well as our own PP is warranted.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Sketch5 on January 11, 2018, 09:32:37 PM
He is special.

I watched him take over the game today in the 3rd. He's done this several times now this season.

I saw Pierce do this back in the day.

He doesn't (as yet) seem to be as good a facilitator as PP was but this will surely come for him.

He seems to play within the game and I know he's still trying to learn it - which is scary (for our opponents).

Our nightmare 2-4 lineup of JB, GH and JT will be devastating for opponents. This is not even taking into account Big Al and Kyrie.

Coach Brad Steven's goal of Position-less Basketball is coming to fruition.

But yeah Durant comparisons as well as our own PP is warranted.

Yeah, his passing isn't quite as good yet, but it's gotten better already this season. There is still the deer in the headlight to a small degree were it's do the one thing, but do it well, were some one like Irving can do and see everything.

Keep having to tell myself kids still 19, and going to be playing in the playoffs in a few months. Then we will see if this kid has it now, or if it's going to take a bit longer.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: cman88 on January 11, 2018, 09:38:41 PM
if both Tatum/brown never developed any more they already would be valuable NBA starting players averaging 14ppg.But with their age, they both have many more years to develop. I feel like tatum has a higher ceiling but Brown did take a huge 2nd year leap.

Tatum has the look of a 20+PPG NBA scorer. The kid has all the moves offensively already and has a knack to take over games at times/hit Clutch shots...as a rookie...
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Phantom255x on January 11, 2018, 09:47:20 PM
If Tatum becomes even 80% of Kevin Durant, I'll be happy  ;D

I certainly see the similarities in the sense that Tatum has that ability to take over games, hit clutch shots, use his length to drive to the hoop and score, and can literally create his own shot and score from anywhere. Sort of like Pierce too. And Tatum's defense for his current age is also pretty good, and will only get better (like Jaylen's has too).

Oh man, let me put on my Green-Tinted glasses and say Tatum could become a hybrid version of Durant and Pierce  8)
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: BringToughnessBack on January 11, 2018, 10:03:46 PM
I have seen flashes of Durant and a spirit of Pierce as well. At the end of the day when all is said and done, Tatum will have more championship titles then Durant(even on Warriors). It would not surprise me that in 20 years, both Tatum and Brown will be hanging high in the rafters. We are in for a glorious ride!
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 11, 2018, 10:06:40 PM
Danny Ainge has IMO pulled off an NBA version of a Naked Reverse.

For him to swap the 1st pick with PHI while snagging JT with the 3rd pick AND grabbing The Lakers pick from PHI is HUGE.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: chilidawg on January 11, 2018, 10:52:17 PM
I always argued that Tatums's floor was Paul George and his ceiling is Kevin Durant.

For brown it's floor Jimmy Butler and ceiling Kawhi Leonard.

Butler and George are exceptional floors.  I'd be pretty happy if those were the outcomes for Tatum and Brown.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: trickybilly on January 12, 2018, 12:10:08 AM
Clyde Drexler was a great comp someone came up with in another thread.

Seems super stupid to compare Butler, George, and Durant in the same breath. They are all entirely unique players, and this is undoubted a case of recency bias interacting with everyone's dreams for what he could become..

Tatum definitely has a 70's/80's game. Julius Erving springs to mind too.

Any old-timers out there who Tatum reminds them of?
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Somebody on January 12, 2018, 12:56:35 AM
Clyde Drexler was a great comp someone came up with in another thread.

Seems super stupid to compare Butler, George, and Durant in the same breath. They are all entirely unique players, and this is undoubted a case of recency bias interacting with everyone's dreams for what he could become..

Tatum definitely has a 70's/80's game. Julius Erving springs to mind too.

Any old-timers out there who Tatum reminds them of?
A bit of Gervin with the layups feel wise.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: PhoSita on January 12, 2018, 01:32:47 AM
If he grows a couple inches over the summer -- not implausible -- I could see the comparison.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: liam on January 12, 2018, 01:53:58 AM
My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tatum is Larry Bird with longer arms! If he improves at ever aspect of his game year after year!
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Somebody on January 12, 2018, 02:08:44 AM
My comp is Paul Pierce+Larry Bird without the legendary passing and BBIQ.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: CF033 on January 12, 2018, 11:56:47 AM
To be honest I've never quite seen the Tatum/Pierce comparison, besides maybe they wanted to compare him to another Celtic. To me Tatum looks a lot smoother and more skilled than Pierce was early on. Pierce was more scrappy for a lack of a better word.

But his ceiling I could only speculate.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Big333223 on January 12, 2018, 03:18:48 PM
There are obvious physical differences between Tatum and Durant but I still think KD is his best comp as a player who can create his own offense, knock down 3's, and change games with his defense. I also think (hope) he can have a Durant-like (or Pierce-like) development as a passer.

I think he has the vision and the willingness, he just needs the experience and to grow into a bigger role.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on January 16, 2018, 03:38:37 PM
Just listened to the Banners Broadcast. The host said he ran into Tatum over the holidays at the Celtic facility. He said he was taller than 6'8''. He thought he was as tall as Horford.

Obviously an unverified source. Its not like he took a picture of Tatum with a measurement. Still, comments like this and Jeff Van Gundy's about him close to 7' are starting to add up.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: Ory on January 16, 2018, 04:59:18 PM
I'm not sure exactly why but he reminds me of Kevin McHale if McHale could shoot 3's.

He just seems to know how to score inside so many different ways, though I don't think he will ever have that kind of wingspan.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: vjcsmoke on January 17, 2018, 08:12:23 AM
I believe the pre-draft comparison was Melo.  Except, surprise, he's got a 3 point shot!  I want more Tatum!  If he continues to crank up his handles and his core strength, he is going to be one hell of a scoring threat.   Talking about an all 3 levels scorer.
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: 2short on January 17, 2018, 08:47:48 AM
I'm not sure exactly why but he reminds me of Kevin McHale if McHale could shoot 3's.

He just seems to know how to score inside so many different ways, though I don't think he will ever have that kind of wingspan.
McHale could shoot 3's
Title: Re: My Outrageous, Green-Tinted, Best-case Scenario Player Comparison for Jayson Tat
Post by: smokeablount on January 17, 2018, 10:47:28 AM
Just listened to the Banners Broadcast. The host said he ran into Tatum over the holidays at the Celtic facility. He said he was taller than 6'8''. He thought he was as tall as Horford.

Obviously an unverified source. Its not like he took a picture of Tatum with a measurement. Still, comments like this and Jeff Van Gundy's about him close to 7' are starting to add up.

I was sitting courtside for the season opener against the Bucks and at one point he was side by side with Aron Baynes.  He looked to be virtually the same height... maybe 1" shorter. 

Based on the way he skies for rebounds and can beat everyone to the ball, he either has really underrated athleticism still, or he is taller than 6'8", or both.