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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Androslav on January 08, 2018, 09:12:12 AM

Title: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Androslav on January 08, 2018, 09:12:12 AM
Pretty straightforward question:
Who is the best/most complete defender on the Celtics right now?

By the best/the most complete I include:
- Being able to stay in front of fast ball-handlers.
- Can't be backed down easily.
- Being able to switch multiple assignments without creating an exploitable mismatch.
- Can control the defensive glass.
- Being able to play big minutes. If a player is often in foul trouble or even worse is injured, his usefulness is limited. Stamina issues would fit in here as well.
- Doesn't commit silly unnecessary fouls. Those put the team in early bonus and frustrate. It also messes up rotations.
- Has the confidence to lock down the best players on the opposing teams.
- Boxes out with discipline and regularity.
- Communicates; talks & directs teammates loud, early & often.
- Executes defensive game plan to detail.
- "Swallows" scouting reports like tasty pancakes.
- Instills confidence and a sense of dependability in his teammates. A guy you would share a trench with while being bombarded.
- Contests regularly without fouling. Especially while covering jump shots.
- Draws charges.
- Doesn't gamble for steals, but plays the passing lanes.
- Makes verticality plays, bumping guys with his chest while midair.
- Protects the rim like a cradle of his newborn baby.
- Can erase a shot, which can lead to "shyness", intimidation
- Uses proper technique for avoiding getting stuck on the screens.
- Makes the opposition think twice.
- His effort doesn't vain regardless of the result.
- Enjoys doing all of the aforementioned.

I am sure I missed some so feel free to add.

EDIT: If you're wondering why Ojeleye is here - it is cause CBS once said, paraphrasing "Semi will be a great defensive player, (then he paused for a split sec) if he is not already". And CBS is the church where I pray.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: ChillyWilly on January 08, 2018, 10:10:46 AM
No Troz3? Let the flaming of Chilly Willy begin for mentioning him!
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Big333223 on January 08, 2018, 10:22:51 AM
No Troz3? Let the flaming of Chilly Willy begin for mentioning him!
Rozier is by no means my choice but if Semi makes the poll Rozier probably should as he's one of the better on-ball defenders on the team and probably the best at staying in front of quicker guards and really pressuring the ball.

I voted Smart although it disappoints me to see how few votes Horford is getting. He's a very smart defender, always knows where he should be and where everyone else is, and is surprisingly quick for a guy who is so slow end-to-end.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: azzenfrost on January 08, 2018, 10:42:38 AM
I have to say Smart. There's aggression in his defense. Sometimes, pure will.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Fafnir on January 08, 2018, 11:14:00 AM
Horford.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: keevsnick on January 08, 2018, 11:29:41 AM
Now this is a hard one. I'd say it has to be one of Smart, Brown or Horford. Horford is fundamentally sound but isn't gonna lock anybody down, he ma also be the bets of the three at help defense. One on one I'd want Jaylen, he can stay in front of anybody and he never stops pursuing even when he gets caught on a screen. He may have the highest upside defensively of the three. Smart is just relentless, but he is a bit too foul prone and has trouble sticking with the fats guards at times. Still, I'd go smart. He just rips the ball out of someones hands once a game.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Fafnir on January 08, 2018, 11:32:13 AM
Brown still is figuring it out, he's really good overall but you can see he still struggles at times against various veterans. First year as a primary rotation player though so I don't mind too much.

It is Horford for me by a pretty big margin over Marcus.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Eja117 on January 08, 2018, 11:42:19 AM
This was a no brainer for me. I picked Smart immediately. I've seen him do things that seemed almost impossible. I'm not necessarily saying his defense is perfect or always on all the time or as great as the hype, but give a dog his due please.

I just went with....who would you most want not to be defended by. Like you have to score and your life depends on it or....one of them has to defend you and their livlihood depends on it....it was just an easy decision.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Chris22 on January 08, 2018, 11:44:20 AM
I have to go with Smart.
If there is a loose ball, Smart's coming out of the pack with it.

Tommy to Mike Gorman, "What do you think is Smart's best position?"

Mike to Tommy, "Strong safety."
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: td450 on January 08, 2018, 01:31:34 PM
My take is Brown is the best/most complete defender.

Smart makes the most impressive plays, but there are scorers who shoot with range that he just can't contain. Jaylen covers more space than anyone else on the team. Whether its Curry, Harden, Giannis or LeBron, if there are 10 seconds left, I'd rather have Jaylen covering them before anyone else.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Sophomore on January 08, 2018, 02:00:30 PM
Smart over Brown by a nose.

I've seen Smart do things that are unpossible. Like checking Millsap in the playoffs two years ago, when Millsap had been unstoppable. Like the other night, when he got stuck on KAT pretty close to the block and goaded him into a miss. He was our best defender against Wall in the playoff series last year, even though he's not as quick as Avery. You could go on and on.

Jaylen has potential, but he still bites on upfakes and hasn't shown that genius Marcus has for positioning.

Al is also very, very solid, but he's not one of the speediest 4s laterally, which means he's not at the tip-top. Marcus and to a lesser extent Jaylen, are more unique.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: colincb on January 08, 2018, 03:01:56 PM
The answer is constrained by how the question was framed. For example: playing big minutes. Nothing said about being able to really defend bigs down low or defensive rebounding either.


The guys consistently on top of the advanced defensive stats are Baynes (#1 in NBA defensive real +/-), Horford, and Theis (#1 in defensive rating among players with any real minutes).


Horford's playing the most minutes of that trio and is my pick.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Androslav on January 08, 2018, 03:46:28 PM
The answer is constrained by how the question was framed. For example: playing big minutes. Nothing said about being able to really defend bigs down low or defensive rebounding either.

The guys consistently on top of the advanced defensive stats are Baynes (#1 in NBA defensive real +/-), Horford, and Theis (#1 in defensive rating among players with any real minutes).

Horford's playing the most minutes of that trio and is my pick.

Thanks for the tip.

Defend bigs down low - would fit under the:
- Can't be backed down easily.
- Protects the rim like a cradle of his newborn baby

Defensive rebounding - would be
- Boxes out with discipline and regularity.
I did add it though. I knew I didn't grasp all of the defensive workload in my initial post.
For me it is not that important that the player gets credited for the board. If the team secures the ball, even better if TRoz or Kyrie get it, semi fast break can evolve in a second.

If a player can't play big minutes, than he either is not as good as his oponents are (and is therefore benched) or he is not reliable enough (injuries, foul trouble, technicals, suspensions or conditioning)
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Fireworks_Boom! on January 08, 2018, 04:15:50 PM
How is Jayson Tatum not on this list?

I'm stunned by how amazing this kid is at both ends of the floor. His length (both height and arms) is amazing. Whoever he is matched up against is in for a long night.

I've watched him all season long and obviously have been impressed with his offensive capabilities (ability to create, take the big shot, and shooting). But his defense might be the most shocking thing about him.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Boris Badenov on January 08, 2018, 04:49:19 PM
What's truly amazing here is the depth. For someone like Ojeleye or Rozier or Baynes to be something like the 6th best defender on their own team...think about that.

Heck, Tatum is a terrific defender, rookie or not, and he is barely in the conversation.

Really happy with the way this year has played out. I much prefer rooting for teams that thrive on defense, and know how to turn it up on that end in close games.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 08, 2018, 05:44:27 PM
Horford, Brown and Smart are very good defenders.   Tatum is up there, too.  I like Theis on D, too.   I have to go with Al as the best as well.  Baynes and Semi have been helped too at times.  Especially Baynes who eats space like no one's business.  I love how we play defense as a team, too.

Nader gets my vote for the worst defender.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: mctyson on January 08, 2018, 06:12:06 PM
Brown still is figuring it out, he's really good overall but you can see he still struggles at times against various veterans. First year as a primary rotation player though so I don't mind too much.

It is Horford for me by a pretty big margin over Marcus.

Considering Horford has 8 years of experience over him, I am going to say Marcus.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: jambr380 on January 08, 2018, 06:26:57 PM
Smart makes some incredible plays and Jaylen is showing real potential (he is just scratching the surface), but I have to agree with Horford. He is the QB of our defense, can extend out to the 3pt line, and might be the best positional defender in the NBA.

Earlier in the season, he seemed to be a leader in the DPOY race, but that hype seems to have quited down. Now that the Cs are winning again and locking teams down on defense, he may begin garnering more attention.

Horford may not be a highlight reel on D, but he is certainly a savant on that end.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: saltlover on January 08, 2018, 06:35:05 PM
I’m going with Smart over Horford, but I won’t judge anyone who reverses that order.  I think Smart is a little more versatile in terms of positions he’s able to at least capably guard for short times, whereas Horford can get taken advantage of on some switches.  But Horford’s still a top defensive big, and if you want to argue that our league leading defense starts with him, I won’t quibble.

What I find at least as interesting is that I can’t figure out who #3 is.  Is it Baynes or Rozier, numbers 2 and 3 in Defensive Rating for the NBA? Is it Tatum, who leads the team in Defensive Win Shares?  Is it Brown, who has the length, athleticism, strength, and will to keep up with just about anyone?  Is it Ojeleye, who’s been very reliable against some of the top players in the game like Giannis and LeBron?  Is it Theis, who leads the team in block percentage and defensive rebound percentage?  That’s six players who could arguably be our third best defender, but would be the top defender for several teams.

I know that’s traditional view is that offense wins in the playoffs, but I can’t imagine many teams are looking forward to a series worth of games against this defense.  It will wear them down.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: 2short on January 08, 2018, 08:02:05 PM
I’m going with Smart over Horford, but I won’t judge anyone who reverses that order.  I think Smart is a little more versatile in terms of positions he’s able to at least capably guard for short times, whereas Horford can get taken advantage of on some switches.  But Horford’s still a top defensive big, and if you want to argue that our league leading defense starts with him, I won’t quibble.

What I find at least as interesting is that I can’t figure out who #3 is.  Is it Baynes or Rozier, numbers 2 and 3 in Defensive Rating for the NBA? Is it Tatum, who leads the team in Defensive Win Shares?  Is it Brown, who has the length, athleticism, strength, and will to keep up with just about anyone?  Is it Ojeleye, who’s been very reliable against some of the top players in the game like Giannis and LeBron?  Is it Theis, who leads the team in block percentage and defensive rebound percentage?  That’s six players who could arguably be our third best defender, but would be the top defender for several teams.

I know that’s traditional view is that offense wins in the playoffs, but I can’t imagine many teams are looking forward to a series worth of games against this defense.  It will wear them down.
What he says and tp

My vote is smart over horford but its amazing how hard it is to pick #3 #4
Our team is filled with very good defenders
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: csfansince60s on January 08, 2018, 08:04:30 PM
TP to the OP. The poll results underscore people's thoughts as to Smart's importance to the team.

Smart, and it's not even close.

Versatility, agression, strength, physicality and the perfect melding of BBIQ and instinct which allows him to see the play before it happens and the physical skills to get him to the right place at the right time.

Uncanny defensive anticipation....phenomenal.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Boris Badenov on January 08, 2018, 08:06:38 PM
I’m going with Smart over Horford, but I won’t judge anyone who reverses that order.  I think Smart is a little more versatile in terms of positions he’s able to at least capably guard for short times, whereas Horford can get taken advantage of on some switches.  But Horford’s still a top defensive big, and if you want to argue that our league leading defense starts with him, I won’t quibble.

What I find at least as interesting is that I can’t figure out who #3 is.  Is it Baynes or Rozier, numbers 2 and 3 in Defensive Rating for the NBA? Is it Tatum, who leads the team in Defensive Win Shares?  Is it Brown, who has the length, athleticism, strength, and will to keep up with just about anyone?  Is it Ojeleye, who’s been very reliable against some of the top players in the game like Giannis and LeBron?  Is it Theis, who leads the team in block percentage and defensive rebound percentage?  That’s six players who could arguably be our third best defender, but would be the top defender for several teams.

I know that’s traditional view is that offense wins in the playoffs, but I can’t imagine many teams are looking forward to a series worth of games against this defense.  It will wear them down.

Yeah for all the grief our bench offense gets, being able to trot out Smart, Ojeleye, Theis, Rozier must be demoralizing for the other team. If anything the defensive intensity picks up with that group.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: 2short on January 08, 2018, 08:14:23 PM
Ok with some thought
1. Smart
2. Horford
3. Brown
4. Baynes
5. Rozier
6. Theis
7. Tatum
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: CelticsJG on January 09, 2018, 03:20:23 PM
Smart, not even close.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: footey on January 09, 2018, 03:39:57 PM
Now: Smart
Potentially: Semih.  Great foot work, and strongest foundation on team.  Holds his ground better than any other Celtic.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: chilidawg on January 09, 2018, 03:51:56 PM
Ok with some thought
1. Smart
2. Horford
3. Brown
4. Baynes
5. Rozier
6. Theis
7. Tatum
I'd reverse smart and Horford, but otherwise that's a good list.
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: Atzar on January 09, 2018, 04:20:26 PM
I voted Jaylen without thinking and almost instantly regretted that choice.  He might be the most complete defender in the sense that he can credibly guard most players 1-4 and even 1-5 on some nights, but he's not the best defender. 

I think it's Horford right now.  Smart is the other serious candidate, but I'd take Horford personally.

It's a fun question.  Nearly the entire rotation deserves at least token consideration except Kyrie, and even Kyrie is somewhere around average now whereas he was a defensive liability in Cleveland.  Lots of good defense on this roster. 
Title: Re: Who is the best/most complete defender on this team?
Post by: flybono on January 12, 2018, 09:50:29 PM
Mchale