CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: CelticD on December 17, 2017, 10:53:29 AM
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My co-workers and I got into a spirited debate over what constitutes a scorer. The debate revolved around Lebron James and Jamal Crawford.
One argument: LeBron James is a scorer, Jamal Crawford is not.
LeBron takes a lot of shots, and makes them at great percentages. He may not be the most versatile scorer but he is pretty much impossible to stop when he looks to put the ball in the basket.
Jamal Crawford takes a lot of shots, but doesn't finish them at very good percentages. He can score in plenty of different ways, and is considered a "tough-shot maker", but that implies he's also a "tough-shot taker" which is extremely unreliable. For this reason, I consider him someone that can score, but is not a scorer.
Other argument: LeBron James is not a scorer, Jamal Crawford is a scorer.
LeBron can't kill you from everywhere on the court. His offensive repertoire is not good enough to deem him a scorer. If most of your shots are dunks and layups, you cannot be considered a scorer. Also, his primary role is to make plays for teammates, he does not have the offensive mindset to score, which is why he's deferred to inferior players in crunch time.
Jamal Crawford can shoot from anywhere on the court, his only role is to score, and will always shoot when given the opportunity. His mindset is always "score score score" therefore he's a score.
What do you guys think? Both arguments seem pretty valid, and this debate went on for over an hour with neither side conceding yet.
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Other argument: LeBron James is not a scorer, Jamal Crawford is a scorer.
LeBron can't kill you from everywhere on the court. His offensive repertoire is not good enough to deem him a scorer. If most of your shots are dunks and layups, you cannot be considered a scorer. Also, his primary role is to make plays for teammates, he does not have the offensive mindset to score, which is why he's deferred to inferior players in crunch time.
So, is it you or your friends that have never seen Lebron play? ;)
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Scoring means to put the ball in the bucket regardless of whether it is a 3pt shot or a layup/dunk. Both Lebron and Crawford are scorers. A scorer is someone you can go to at anytime to get a bucket. Good scorers are not necessarily good shooters. Good shooters are not necessarily good scorers.
The notion that Lebron isn't a scorer is ludicrous. Lebron being able to create shots for others doesn't detract from him being a greater scorer himself. Lebron has actually turned himself into a solid but streaky shooter. 40% from three on 4.8 attempts.
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Other argument: LeBron James is not a scorer, Jamal Crawford is a scorer.
LeBron can't kill you from everywhere on the court. His offensive repertoire is not good enough to deem him a scorer. If most of your shots are dunks and layups, you cannot be considered a scorer. Also, his primary role is to make plays for teammates, he does not have the offensive mindset to score, which is why he's deferred to inferior players in crunch time.
So, is it you or your friends that have never seen Lebron play? ;)
LOL definitely my friends/co-workers. I've seen LeBron trounce this team too often to not consider him a scorer.
I'm on the fence with someone like Crawford being a scorer though. It's kinda like the distinction we make with "Players who can shoot" and "Shooters". I think Crawford is "someone that can score" but I don't know if I'd call him a "scorer".
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Other argument: LeBron James is not a scorer, Jamal Crawford is a scorer.
LeBron can't kill you from everywhere on the court. His offensive repertoire is not good enough to deem him a scorer. If most of your shots are dunks and layups, you cannot be considered a scorer. Also, his primary role is to make plays for teammates, he does not have the offensive mindset to score, which is why he's deferred to inferior players in crunch time.
So, is it you or your friends that have never seen Lebron play? ;)
LOL definitely my friends/co-workers. I've seen LeBron trounce this team too often to not consider him a scorer.
I'm on the fence with someone like Crawford being a scorer though. It's kinda like the distinction we make with "Players who can shoot" and "Shooters". I think Crawford is "someone that can score" but I don't know if I'd call him a "scorer".
Crawford is a scorer. He can score from anywhere and has the handle and speed to create space to get his shot off. You can be a chucker and still be a scorer. Just look at Allen Iverson to see that.
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IMO, scorers are players that can get their own shot (via post moves, penetration, perimeter footwork and shooting, etc) and are a threat to go off for say 25 or more points in a game.
Lebron is one of the greatest scorers of all time, in addition to everything else he does.
The Celtics have a few scorers: Irving, Horford (even though he prefers the all around team game), Hayward, Tatum (already!). Brown has potential, but his footwork and penetration skills aren't quite there yet.
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IMO, scorers are players that can get their own shot (via post moves, penetration, perimeter footwork and shooting, etc) and are a threat to go off for say 25 or more points in a game.
Lebron is one of the greatest scorers of all time, in addition to everything else he does.
The Celtics have a few scorers: Irving, Horford (even though he prefers the all around team game), Hayward, Tatum (already!). Brown has potential, but his footwork and penetration skills aren't quite there yet.
I agree Brown isn't there yet but think the thing holding him back is his handle and his free throw shooting. Eventually, as his handle improves it means less turnovers and more plays where he can create contact on drives and get to the line a lot. Then he has to hit his free throws.
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It's consistent ability to score shots without being set up by someone else in at least a couple different ways at a high level. A guy who can consistently pull up for a jump shot or get to the rim and score about 20 ppg is a scorer to me, and of course there are levels to it. Of course, a big man with a midrange game and a post game can be a scorer too.
To some of the talk on the C's, I would say Kyrie clearly is. Tatum isn't consistently high level yet but it is clearly a matter of time. Jaylen Brown shows flashes but for example in some games recently he hasn't been getting to the rim. I've been very happy with his shooting from 3 but he isn't getting into the paint and attacking, which would put him into scorer territory. I think Morris can earn the label in a lesser way, which is why he makes a lot of sense with the bench unit.
LeBron is clearly a scorer (probably the best slasher/driver in the history of basketball) and can score in multiple ways. If you don't respect LeBron as a jump shooter I guess you blacked out Game 6 2012.
Lou Williams is a classic example of a guy who is a pure scorer to me. Paul Pierce is among the most complete scorers of all time.
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Other argument: LeBron James is not a scorer, Jamal Crawford is a scorer.
LeBron can't kill you from everywhere on the court. His offensive repertoire is not good enough to deem him a scorer. If most of your shots are dunks and layups, you cannot be considered a scorer. Also, his primary role is to make plays for teammates, he does not have the offensive mindset to score, which is why he's deferred to inferior players in crunch time.
So, is it you or your friends that have never seen Lebron play? ;)
LOL definitely my friends/co-workers. I've seen LeBron trounce this team too often to not consider him a scorer.
I'm on the fence with someone like Crawford being a scorer though. It's kinda like the distinction we make with "Players who can shoot" and "Shooters". I think Crawford is "someone that can score" but I don't know if I'd call him a "scorer".
Crawford is a scorer. He can score from anywhere and has the handle and speed to create space to get his shot off. You can be a chucker and still be a scorer. Just look at Allen Iverson to see that.
This is where I get iffy. I feel like a big part of scoring is efficiency. Anybody can put the ball into the hoop, but being able to do the same thing over and over is an important part of scoring imo. Someone like Crawford can make some difficult contested off-balance shots, but those simply aren't reliable.
Like any body "can pass" but there are only a handful of "passers" in the league. I think the same can go for scorers.
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LeBron is a scorer. Crawford is a scorer. It's just that one is better than the other.
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Other argument: LeBron James is not a scorer, Jamal Crawford is a scorer.
LeBron can't kill you from everywhere on the court. His offensive repertoire is not good enough to deem him a scorer. If most of your shots are dunks and layups, you cannot be considered a scorer. Also, his primary role is to make plays for teammates, he does not have the offensive mindset to score, which is why he's deferred to inferior players in crunch time.
So, is it you or your friends that have never seen Lebron play? ;)
LOL definitely my friends/co-workers. I've seen LeBron trounce this team too often to not consider him a scorer.
I'm on the fence with someone like Crawford being a scorer though. It's kinda like the distinction we make with "Players who can shoot" and "Shooters". I think Crawford is "someone that can score" but I don't know if I'd call him a "scorer".
Crawford is a scorer. He can score from anywhere and has the handle and speed to create space to get his shot off. You can be a chucker and still be a scorer. Just look at Allen Iverson to see that.
This is where I get iffy. I feel like a big part of scoring is efficiency. Anybody can put the ball into the hoop, but being able to do the same thing over and over is an important part of scoring imo. Someone like Crawford can make some difficult contested off-balance shots, but those simply aren't reliable.
Like any body "can pass" but there are only a handful of "passers" in the league. I think the same can go for scorers.
There are plenty of NBA players that really can't put the ball in the hoop against NBA levels defense, no matter how many opportunities you give them.
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I define it as a guy who can create a good offensive shot at least half time against his defender one-on-one.
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When I think of Scorers I think of Kobe and Jordan..
When I think of Playmakers I think of Magic and Lebron..
Scorers Score to beat you - Play makers make plays to beat you.. Lebron is the best player in the world (current) Yes he can score but he is most dangerous because of Everything else he can do.. But in my opinion as a Scorer he is above average but not Elite (since he does not possess the clutch gene)
This is not to say that he is not a great player - Just better as a playmaker (elite) who can score...
KI is an elite Scorer but nowhere near the playmaker that Lebron is..
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When I think of Scorers I think of Kobe and Jordan..
When I think of Playmakers I think of Magic and Lebron..
Scorers Score to beat you - Play makers make plays to beat you.. Lebron is the best player in the world (current) Yes he can score but he is most dangerous because of Everything else he can do.. But in my opinion as a Scorer he is above average but not Elite (since he does not possess the clutch gene)
This is not to say that he is not a great player - Just better as a playmaker (elite) who can score...
KI is an elite Scorer but nowhere near the playmaker that Lebron is..
lol
Somehow, this guy who is not an elite scorer is likely to wind up the third highest scoring player in the history of the game.
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They're both scorers.
I think a scorer is anybody whose skills allow them to score consistently, at a reasonable volume, and in a variety of ways, without needing to expend a great deal of effort. A scorer is not necessarily hyper efficient, but a scorer should be able to regularly create offense out of bad situations.
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They're both scorers.
I think a scorer is anybody whose skills allow them to score consistently, at a reasonable volume, and in a variety of ways, without needing to expend a great deal of effort. A scorer is not necessarily hyper efficient, but a scorer should be able to regularly create offense out of bad situations.
I think that's the key. Someone who can regularly create a decent shot out of nothing.
I don't even think scoring versatility is important. I think Shaq was a great scorer but he really only did it one way: out the of post.
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Needs to be a little selfish
Knows the angles/tricks to get shot off
Knows how to get to the line
Likes 80 percent of shots to take
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I always saw a scorer as a guy who could manipulate his defender to force a foul or get off a clean shot on a consistent basis against 70% of his competition.
Shooters I look at as guys who take shots only when plays are designed for them or they are open. They want clean looks.
Scorers usually look for contact while shooters shy away from it.
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They're both scorers.
I think a scorer is anybody whose skills allow them to score consistently, at a reasonable volume, and in a variety of ways, without needing to expend a great deal of effort. A scorer is not necessarily hyper efficient, but a scorer should be able to regularly create offense out of bad situations.
I think that's the key. Someone who can regularly create a decent shot out of nothing.
I don't even think scoring versatility is important. I think Shaq was a great scorer but he really only did it one way: out the of post.
So would you consider Rondo a Great Scorer, This is his MO right.. Creating great offense out of nothing.
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I always considered the "scorer' label to be a mutually exclusive one. So a scorer is somewhat limited-- strictly a shot creator (for himself) that can go off at any given time. For example, Jamal Crawford, Lou Williams, Carmelo, etc. I'd like to sneak Swaggy P in there because "Swaggy P."
Other guys can be elite offensive talents, but if they do a lot more than that, I'd add to that title. For example, I'd consider Westbrook a 'score first PG, and LeBron a 'beast.'
That said, I think you should quit goofing around at work, pal.
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Scorer almost has a negative connotation in my mind. Like it is the only thing you can do.
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Scorer almost has a negative connotation in my mind. Like it is the only thing you can do.
Same. You said it more efficiently than I.
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Kobe gene
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They're both scorers.
I think a scorer is anybody whose skills allow them to score consistently, at a reasonable volume, and in a variety of ways, without needing to expend a great deal of effort. A scorer is not necessarily hyper efficient, but a scorer should be able to regularly create offense out of bad situations.
I think that's the key. Someone who can regularly create a decent shot out of nothing.
I don't even think scoring versatility is important. I think Shaq was a great scorer but he really only did it one way: out the of post.
So would you consider Rondo a Great Scorer, This is his MO right.. Creating great offense out of nothing.
Rondo is amazing at creating for others but not much for himself. He's occasionally able to make terrific shots but he doesn't do it regularly and never did.
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Needs to be a little selfish
Knows the angles/tricks to get shot off
Knows how to get to the line
Likes 80 percent of shots to take
TP. I like this short explanation.
It can be implemented to soccer, handball, waterpolo etc.
"Knows how to get to the line" would just be;
How to get fouled (for a free kick/9m/earn oponents 2 min suspension) or
How to get a penalty kick/shot (11m/7m/4m).
The rest can remain universaly unchained.