CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: mctyson on December 15, 2017, 10:10:02 PM
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There has been an alarming trend this year and finally this team is starting to crack.
They have major offensive deficiencies. Stevens response is to go small which neutralizes their defense. Whatever you want to say about Stevens as a coach (and I think he is a good one) - his small lineup decisions are usually terrible. They are terrible because those units get destroyed on the glass and on defense.
I will chalk these games up to the injuries but there is no doubt that I see a large second half swoon coming.
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Irving is controlling the ball way too much - as advertised.
This is destroying Stevens' ball movement offense. Remember the ball constantly moving with endless screens, hand-offs and passing ??????? Irving's domination of the ball takes the other guys, Brown & Tatum especially, out of the offense too much. They are reduced to standing around watching Irving dribble.
Yeah, I know Irving has often shot a decent percentage and that his 4th quarter runs have won some games, but that is missing the point. Eventually, his 30+ point games are going to backfire and choke off the winning formula of team offense.
Sure hope Coach Stevens is tough enough to tell Irving what he wants and demand that he execute what is best for the team.
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The truth of the matter is, we're a great team that prided itself on fighting the adversity. But we're still fairly very young and inexperienced, and we lost one of our best players to a severe injury. We're just inevitably outmatched most nights, but somehow manage to come back from it. I'm not so sad over nothing, I'm optimistic about our future. I think our young core definitely shows promise.
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Slowly looking like the 2010-2011 season, where the Celtics begin to fall apart in the second half of the season.
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Slowly looking like the 2010-2011 season, where the Celtics begin to fall apart in the second half of the season.
Yeah, I am getting that kind of feeling. Also a lot of 'playoff feels' from Stevens with throwing out small lineups hoping to stick and just making it worse. I am a fan of just going with what gets you there and falling on our sword.
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Smart is the one that is broken...aaaarggh.
Jacks up shot that we all know has no prayer of going in..His F as well is sub par these days and if that happens..he is practically useless.
I really wish we had Lou Williams type right now who is the complete opposite of Smart in terms of scoring....heck even Etwan Moore whom we let go can go off for 30 with this team right about now....MS is just a terrible..terrible offensive player right now.
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Smart is the one that is broken...aaaarggh.
As much as Smart sucks on offense, you can't blame him for getting doubled up on rebounds.
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bench loses leads every single game. we need a bench that can EXTEND leads so we can blow teams out and get garbage time. every game it seems we rely on kyrie to bail us out in the 4th. hes subhuman but not that subhuman
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Irving is controlling the ball way too much - as advertised.
This is destroying Stevens' ball movement offense. Remember the ball constantly moving with endless screens, hand-offs and passing ??????? Irving's domination of the ball takes the other guys, Brown & Tatum especially, out of the offense too much. They are reduced to standing around watching Irving dribble.
Yeah, I know Irving has often shot a decent percentage and that his 4th quarter runs have won some games, but that is missing the point. Eventually, his 30+ point games are going to backfire and choke off the winning formula of team offense.
Sure hope Coach Stevens is tough enough to tell Irving what he wants and demand that he execute what is best for the team.
Irving isnt the problem..the problem is there is no one else reliable enough to score consistently...there were about 10 good kick outs and free looks that were created with the motion offense but a lot of misses from JB Tatum and Rozier amd even Semi...Kyrie saved this game from being a 30 point loss.
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This is a good team, but they are tired. Rookie wall striking half the team at the moment.
My view is that, after Hayward went down, they started a marathon NBA season at a full sprint. Credit the guys for figuring out Brad’s defense early, but it’s taxing mentally and physically.
And in this marathon, its like we are at the 10 mile mark realizing that a sub-6 minute pace isn’t going to work the rest of the way.
Hopefully Brad doesn’t crush them too hard. Mental rest can be just as fulfilling as physical rest for the young guys.
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The Celtics are fine. They started out red hot at an unsustainable pace. They're very young, still developing both individually and as a team, and have the championship-level defense needed for a deep playoff run. We started the season with an ECF appearance as our likely ceiling and are right on path to meet that goal.
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Irving is controlling the ball way too much - as advertised.
This is destroying Stevens' ball movement offense. Remember the ball constantly moving with endless screens, hand-offs and passing ??????? Irving's domination of the ball takes the other guys, Brown & Tatum especially, out of the offense too much. They are reduced to standing around watching Irving dribble.
Yeah, I know Irving has often shot a decent percentage and that his 4th quarter runs have won some games, but that is missing the point. Eventually, his 30+ point games are going to backfire and choke off the winning formula of team offense.
Sure hope Coach Stevens is tough enough to tell Irving what he wants and demand that he execute what is best for the team.
Irving isnt the problem..the problem is there is no one else reliable enough to score consistently...there were about 10 good kick outs and free looks that were created with the motion offense but a lot of misses from JB Tatum and Rozier amd even Semi...Kyrie saved this game from being a 30 point loss.
I hope you are right - but I am not seeing the ball on the move with hand-offs, passes and multiple screening like last year.
The team is playing tired and need to find a more reasonable pace for the long season. That takes experience. Part of that is sharing the load and I don't see it right now. Irving's assist totals continue to decline.
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Irving is controlling the ball way too much - as advertised.
This is destroying Stevens' ball movement offense. Remember the ball constantly moving with endless screens, hand-offs and passing ??????? Irving's domination of the ball takes the other guys, Brown & Tatum especially, out of the offense too much. They are reduced to standing around watching Irving dribble.
Yeah, I know Irving has often shot a decent percentage and that his 4th quarter runs have won some games, but that is missing the point. Eventually, his 30+ point games are going to backfire and choke off the winning formula of team offense.
Sure hope Coach Stevens is tough enough to tell Irving what he wants and demand that he execute what is best for the team.
Irving isnt the problem..the problem is there is no one else reliable enough to score consistently...there were about 10 good kick outs and free looks that were created with the motion offense but a lot of misses from JB Tatum and Rozier amd even Semi...Kyrie saved this game from being a 30 point loss.
I hope you are right - but I am not seeing the ball on the move with hand-offs, passes and multiple screening like last year.
The team is playing tired and need to find a more reasonable pace for the long season. That takes experience. Part of that is sharing the load and I don't see it right now. Irving's assist totals continue to decline.
Irving is likely the reason our pace is much slower, as well. That's probably exacerbated by a lack of chemistry with the turnover. H's a better passer than I thought, but increasingly less willing. Stats don't tell the whole story too -- hockey assists are also considerably important in Bradley's system.
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Irving is controlling the ball way too much - as advertised.
This is destroying Stevens' ball movement offense. Remember the ball constantly moving with endless screens, hand-offs and passing ??????? Irving's domination of the ball takes the other guys, Brown & Tatum especially, out of the offense too much. They are reduced to standing around watching Irving dribble.
Yeah, I know Irving has often shot a decent percentage and that his 4th quarter runs have won some games, but that is missing the point. Eventually, his 30+ point games are going to backfire and choke off the winning formula of team offense.
Sure hope Coach Stevens is tough enough to tell Irving what he wants and demand that he execute what is best for the team.
Irving isnt the problem..the problem is there is no one else reliable enough to score consistently...there were about 10 good kick outs and free looks that were created with the motion offense but a lot of misses from JB Tatum and Rozier amd even Semi...Kyrie saved this game from being a 30 point loss.
I hope you are right - but I am not seeing the ball on the move with hand-offs, passes and multiple screening like last year.
The team is playing tired and need to find a more reasonable pace for the long season. That takes experience. Part of that is sharing the load and I don't see it right now. Irving's assist totals continue to decline.
Don’t blame him it’s because guys aren’t making anything. It looks like Tatum is hitting the rookie wall and Horford has looked old lately. Smart, Semi, Rozier are building a brick mansion outside of Jaylen nobody reliable to score for us.
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So a couple of losses and they're broken? Sigh.
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Lol, bit of an overreaction. I think a few posters got too used to the constant winning.
When you look at the circumstances, this team has massively overachieved.
- Second best player injured on opening night (in a grotesque fashion).
- Important rotation player missing considerable amounts of games, and not being able to gel with his new team as a result.
- 4 players retained from last seasons roster.
- Almost half of our players are rookies or sophomores
Hard to win games when stuff like this happens
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they ain't broke
but brother, they're badly bent
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So now they're overachivers? ::)
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Lol, bit of an overreaction. I think a few posters got too used to the constant winning.
When you look at the circumstances, this team has massively overachieved.
- Second best player injured on opening night (in a grotesque fashion).
- Important rotation player missing considerable amounts of games, and not being able to gel with his new team as a result.
- 4 players retained from last seasons roster.
- Almost half of our players are rookies or sophomores
Hard to win games when stuff like this happens
With all that said they are still first in the East. This was always going to be a rough stretch with all these back to backs and no practice time for months....
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We lost Hayward, Morris, and Theis.
Utah was pumped up because we signed Hayward.
But my biggest concern is that we aren't even trying to rebound any more.
What happened to the first 15 games of the season when we were blocking out and trying to rebound?
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But my biggest concern is that we aren't even trying to rebound any more.
We are 11th in the NBA in rebounding pverall, 19th in offensive and 6th in defensive. So it is clear rebounding is not the main problem.
https://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/?sort=REB&dir=-1
Our lack of scoring of the bench is a bigger problem.
A typical "sky is falling" thread that follows a loss here. We are going to lose some games, and we are going to win some games we should not and lose some games we should win. That is sports, folks, it is a long season.
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Irving is controlling the ball way too much - as advertised. This is destroying Stevens' ball movement offense
I call BS on this assertion. You do realize that a lot of the games we have won are due to his scoring. I would rather have him taking a shot in the clutch than anyone not named Tatum. Take a look here, its Clutch time stats and guess who is second in the NBA:
http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/
Yep, it's Irving. It is Irving who has carried us for stretches when guys can't score.
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It's not losses that bothers us. It's the play we (don't)produce at the moment. Smart realy sucks and that's not the news as well. Kyrie is not a problem also. Problem is that we can't find the rim. Rozier can't find where opponents basket is at all, Smart and Brown have a similar problem. Kyrie is taking the ball and the shots more and more exactly because of this problem. He sees that no one can score and someone has to if we want to win.
The team is showing it's weaknesses at highest level I believe and the biggest one would be INCONSISTENCY. We have a young team, too young I'd say and we'll fight against this problem as long as we don't add some veteran help. Horford is actually alone in the payment. Baynes is way too limited, Theis is young, Yabu is young, Tatum as a stretch-four as well. We just have to add some help in the paint and from the outside.
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This thread does not read like it's about a team that is 24-7 and first in its conference.
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C's are hitting a bit of a wall, but can definitely recover. KI looks great, Horford seems tired, and Tatum/Brown are slowing down. They need to gut out this stretch, get Morris (and now Theis) back healthy, and use that DPE to add a shooter. They probably are more what most thought pre-season, out in 2nd round or ECF. But still a young, exciting team with an all-star returning next year and assets to trade.
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So a couple of losses and they're broken? Sigh.
First, I said "may be."
Second - you cannot ignore the fact that this team gets down by huge deficits quite frequently. That is because their offense is not good.
They missed 18 straight yesterday and didn't make a field goal in the 2nd Q until there was 5 min left. There have been a lot of scoring droughts recently. That is a very scary sign because it reminds of their team from last season, particularly in the playoffs.
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Lol, bit of an overreaction. I think a few posters got too used to the constant winning.
When you look at the circumstances, this team has massively overachieved.
- Second best player injured on opening night (in a grotesque fashion).
- Important rotation player missing considerable amounts of games, and not being able to gel with his new team as a result.
- 4 players retained from last seasons roster.
- Almost half of our players are rookies or sophomores
Hard to win games when stuff like this happens
Not an overreaction at all. Three of last 4 games have been putrid on offense, and they were already a mediocre offensive team.
Right now they have no answer for it.
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A typical "sky is falling" thread that follows a loss here. We are going to lose some games, and we are going to win some games we should not and lose some games we should win. That is sports, folks, it is a long season.
This has nothing to do with a single loss, or even multiple losses. I think this team is showing dangerous signs of being broken on the offensive end. They have very few answers, especially when Tatum is not scoring.
The double-down on this is Stevens then goes to small lineups thinking this provides more pace and offense, but it makes them way worse in every other way.
Like I said, I am willing to chalk this up to the schedule/injuries but I have sneaking suspicion that this could get a lot worse.
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This has nothing to do with a single loss, or even multiple losses. I think this team is showing dangerous signs of being broken on the offensive end. They have very few answers, especially when Tatum is not scoring
Welcome to having a top heavy roster and a weak with dependency on a youth movement. Your going to have ups and downs. I have always thought losing Hayward made us very fragile in terms of depth.
, I am willing to chalk this up to the schedule/injuries but I have sneaking suspicion that this could get a lot worse.
This we agree on. One more injury (knock on wood) and we could be toast, especially if Horford or Irving went down. I think losing Hayward will make us a lot tougher next year. Tatum is learning on the job and has demonstrated proficiency in shooting. I just wish he was more aggressive.
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the only thing different from this team now and this team from the streak is guys aren't making shots and the defense isn't getting the stops. "getting stops" means we're not getting the defensive rebounds.
also.
i'm a huge Smart fan and I've defended everything he does on the court but Stevens needs to not make him the focal point on offense when he's on the floor. it really seems like they're running plays for him and that's it when he's on the floor. tatum needs to be part of that 2nd unit and be the focal point of the offense for that group.
I also feel Smart is kind of the one that is "broken". I think this comes from his option not being picked up and him feeling slighted, just my opinion and I have no proof. but seeing him in pre-season he looked like a completely different player and then came the day for the option to be picked up and then the very next game he looked like last season Marcus. even his defense hasn't been consistent imo.
ideally rozier needs be flipped for someone, anyone better and consistent, either a big or a guard... just anyone. he gives me those AB feelings of "he might make this shot... and he might not".
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With the win streak, I think I misjudged this team's ability. The rebounding has nearly died. We're just not that good of a team.
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Its a make or miss league. Our young guys are missing more. Olejeye is getting minutes but struggling to find his range. Smart and Rozier have struggled. Tatum is in a funk.
That's 4 key rotation players on rookie contracts who are struggling to make shots.
All 3 of our last losses we were under 30% from 3. That's the key stat. We had plenty of wide open looks, but we missed them. If we shoot our average for those games we win them.
CBS warned the Cs not to overreact to early success. He saw a struggling offense. He saw the lulls.
Now, don't overreact to failure. The question is how are we progressing in December with our young guys?
1. Olejeye looks like the real deal on defense. He makes a lot of good plays. His athleticism shines through on offense once in a while too.
2. We are getting good shots that we are missing. Missing shots is normal for a young team. Getting good shots is not normal.
3. I like Rozier's progression as an offensive player. He is still overmatched to be the primary scorer off the bench, but I could definitely see him getting there.
4. Theis has been really good on both sides of the court. He needs to learn how not to foul.
5. We have 2 of top 7 players under 23 years old right now. Both of whom are making contributions and figuring out their game.
6. Brown's defense continues to be at the most elite level (first team). His first quarter last night was awesome.
7. Kyrie is trusting his teammates to make shots, but they are not. He is still scoring at an elite level, but he is also making a lot of good basketball plays.
8. Imagine what this team is going to look like on two days rest with time to develop individual abilities and new offensive schemes.
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But my biggest concern is that we aren't even trying to rebound any more.
We are 11th in the NBA in rebounding pverall, 19th in offensive and 6th in defensive. So it is clear rebounding is not the main problem.
https://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/?sort=REB&dir=-1
Our lack of scoring of the bench is a bigger problem.
A typical "sky is falling" thread that follows a loss here. We are going to lose some games, and we are going to win some games we should not and lose some games we should win. That is sports, folks, it is a long season.
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Irving is controlling the ball way too much - as advertised. This is destroying Stevens' ball movement offense
I call BS on this assertion. You do realize that a lot of the games we have won are due to his scoring. I would rather have him taking a shot in the clutch than anyone not named Tatum. Take a look here, its Clutch time stats and guess who is second in the NBA:
http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/
Yep, it's Irving. It is Irving who has carried us for stretches when guys can't score.
No, rebounding is a problem.
The stats you quote are from the entire season. My post referred to the last few games.
I repeat....why have they stopped blocking out or even trying to get rebounds?
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But my biggest concern is that we aren't even trying to rebound any more.
We are 11th in the NBA in rebounding pverall, 19th in offensive and 6th in defensive. So it is clear rebounding is not the main problem.
https://stats.nba.com/teams/traditional/?sort=REB&dir=-1
Our lack of scoring of the bench is a bigger problem.
A typical "sky is falling" thread that follows a loss here. We are going to lose some games, and we are going to win some games we should not and lose some games we should win. That is sports, folks, it is a long season.
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Irving is controlling the ball way too much - as advertised. This is destroying Stevens' ball movement offense
I call BS on this assertion. You do realize that a lot of the games we have won are due to his scoring. I would rather have him taking a shot in the clutch than anyone not named Tatum. Take a look here, its Clutch time stats and guess who is second in the NBA:
http://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/
Yep, it's Irving. It is Irving who has carried us for stretches when guys can't score.
No, rebounding is a problem.
The stats you quote are from the entire season. My post referred to the last few games.
I repeat....why have they stopped blocking out or even trying to get rebounds?
Do you really think the team has stopped "even trying to get rebounds"?
Really?
Over reaction.
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i'm a huge Smart fan and I've defended everything he does on the court but Stevens needs to not make him the focal point on offense when he's on the floor. it really seems like they're running plays for him and that's it when he's on the floor. tatum needs to be part of that 2nd unit and be the focal point of the offense for that group.
I also feel Smart is kind of the one that is "broken". I think this comes from his option not being picked up and him feeling slighted, just my opinion and I have no proof. but seeing him in pre-season he looked like a completely different player and then came the day for the option to be picked up and then the very next game he looked like last season Marcus. even his defense hasn't been consistent imo.
I agree with this mostly. I too am a huge Smart fan but combined with Rozier and Ojeleye there is too much dead play on the offensive end. However, at least Smart can create for others. Rozier does none of that.
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we are a young team and this will happen. This is why Hayward was supposed to be a big part of this team. Veteran consistency to pull the team through nights like last night when your bench/younger players struggle. RIght now, just irving/horford can will themselves to pick up scoring slack if other players are struggling. you add hayward and its a different story.
as good as tatum/Brown have been they are still young. and without Morris on the bench, it is 50-50 as to whether rozier/smart will have a good night of a 1-15 night.
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We’re 8-5 since the streak ended. I mean, that’s not exactly cause for panic.
But yeah, we weren’t going 80-2. Firmly believe that margin of victory is the best predictor of how good a team. And we all know that we squeaked out more games during the streak than normal.
Anyway, still at least the second best team in the east with a punchers chance to make it to the finals. I’m good with that.
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Injuries have played a large part in this small downturn we're experiencing. The loss of Morris specifically was a major hit to that second unit. Not to mention the game to game losses of Baynes and Theis, just when we need them most.
And speaking of that second unit, I'm going to agree with mctyson...Smart, Rozier, and Ojeleye are WAY too inconsistent offensively to carry any unit...second or other.
Smart is what he is, he's fine on a team that surrounds him with solid offensive players, but team him with the wild and inconsistent Rozier, and the "NO" 3 and D Ojeleye and you have a second unit that is totally impotent.
If Morris will be lost for a long period of time, couple that with the loss of Hayward, and at times Brown and Tatum will actually look like rookies...we're gonna struggle at times.
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There has been an alarming trend this year and finally this team is starting to crack.
They have major offensive deficiencies. Stevens response is to go small which neutralizes their defense. Whatever you want to say about Stevens as a coach (and I think he is a good one) - his small lineup decisions are usually terrible. They are terrible because those units get destroyed on the glass and on defense.
I will chalk these games up to the injuries but there is no doubt that I see a large second half swoon coming.
Oh No, the sky is falling. Hide, but wait...there's no where to hide, because the sky is all encompassing, its gonna get, no matter what....and....its falling....fast......
We're 24-7, without one of our top two players.
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Seems like the obvious answer is to give more minutes to Yabu/Larkin/Semi (Nader needs to be cut). Maybe actually cashing in on the DPE, and get another talented rotational player in the mix. We are built very top heavy, even if Hayward and Morris were both healthy.
Might make for some losses, but development of the bench allows the marathon that is the season to
be run without too much wear from attrition and gives more options once the playoffs come to know what kind of matchups the end of the bench guys are capable of contributing positive numbers to.
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We’re 8-5 since the streak ended. I mean, that’s not exactly cause for panic.
But yeah, we weren’t going 80-2. Firmly believe that margin of victory is the best predictor of how good a team. And we all know that we squeaked out more games during the streak than normal.
Anyway, still at least the second best team in the east with a punchers chance to make it to the finals. I’m good with that.
^^This
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Morris is not a star but he stabilizes both the bench and the starters I think him being gone hurts. Tatum has hit a rookie wall, Brown is still finding his way. Smart and Rozier both have bad nights. Smart is not a scorer but he thinks he is some nights. We all should be happy with this team without Heyward. I hope we do get a nice piece with the DPE and Hopefully a new streak is coming!!!!
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I don't think the team is broken. I just think they are regressing back to the team they are. They were never an 88% winning team. They are more like a 65% winning team and its pretty obvious they are slipping into that mold.
I thought after Hayward got hurt that the ECFs were going to be a stretch to get to. But with the development of Jaylen and Jayson and the mediocre to poor play of teams like Charlotte, Washington, and Milwaukee, I think we can still make the ECFs.
But this is essentially a developmental year with a bunch of winning. A healthy Hayward and Morris, a year developed Brown, Tatum, Theis, Ojeleye and Yabusele, a possible LA pick conveying and another year of playing together and this team starts being a constant contender next year.
All we have seen recently is a team showing their youth and lack of outside shooting from the entire bench. We are going to lose probably another 20 games this year. And its going to be because of the same thing we saw last night: the Jay's shooting bad, poor rebounding, lack of defensive team defense, and little offense coming from the bench.
That's not broken. Its just the way it is.
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We need a bench. We're down Morris and now Theis. These guys are young and we need some veteran scoring off the bench. Anthony Morrow is available, cheap and can shoot.
I suspect Ainge is looking at upgrading the bench in some way.
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Aren't the Celtics 11 in rebounding?
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Our Boston Celtics could win just HALF of their remaining games and STILL finish with nearly 50 wins.
That 16 game winning streak was SIGNIFICANT.
We're in a tough stretch right now but we'll be OK.
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Our Boston Celtics could win just HALF of their remaining games and STILL finish with nearly 50 wins.
That 16 game winning streak was SIGNIFICANT.
We're in a tough stretch right now but we'll be OK.
We need the #1 seed to have a chance in the playoffs. We’re too young
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Our Boston Celtics could win just HALF of their remaining games and STILL finish with nearly 50 wins.
That 16 game winning streak was SIGNIFICANT.
We're in a tough stretch right now but we'll be OK.
We need the #1 seed to have a chance in the playoffs. We’re too young
True but I think the key here is to take what we can get.
I don't think many of us even thought about getting ANY seeding once Hayward went down.
What we've accomplished so far has been HUGE. Kyrie's been a Star - even SUPER at times - and the team has grown some.
I'd be happy with this team just extending this season as long as possible - regardless of seeding - and keeping the window OPEN for THIS guy to possibly return - even in a bench role
(http://www.gazettenet.com/getattachment/2febd1cc-ac29-44e1-ada4-786fa269e18c/Celtics-HG-090217-ph01)
Getting Gordon "The Haymaker" Hayward back - even off the bench - would provide a spark to this team and rejuvenate us.
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This team does have offensive depth problems but the biggest change from earlier in the year is the defense and rebounding haven't been great the in the recent stretch when they were elite early.
Irving is controlling the ball way too much - as advertised.
This is destroying Stevens' ball movement offense.
Man this is clueless. Kyrie plays so within the system and plays off ball often and well.
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This team does have offensive depth problems but the biggest change from earlier in the year is the defense and rebounding haven't been great the in the recent stretch when they were elite early.
Irving is controlling the ball way too much - as advertised.
This is destroying Stevens' ball movement offense.
Man this is clueless. Kyrie plays so within the system and plays off ball often and well.
Yeah, I don't think Kyrie is the problem. If anything, sometimes I think he passes too much.
The problem with this team - offensively anyway - is that we have a great #1 option in Kyrie, but no one's stepped up enough to be considered a reliable 2nd option. Al has been solid, but he's a 3rd option in the vein of Chris Bosh at best. Jaylen can do it in flashes, but he's still maddeningly inconsistent. Jayson might be the guy from a skillset stand point, but he's too passive at this point.
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This is a typical sky is falling thread. But say for example it's not. the stuff that went right during the 16 game streak isn't happening consistently.
Kyrie is playing hero ball and not backing it up, especially on the defensive end. It's nice that he scored 33 in the last game. But Rubio scored 22 (10 over his season average) and was +15. Meanwhile Kyrie was -10. Look, it doesn't help to get bunches of points when you (1) stagnate the offense and (2) give it all up on the other end by letting them execute their offense. Kyrie hasn't had a 10 assist game since opening night. That's unacceptable for a PG.
Without Morris there's no scoring off the bench. Rozier and Smart are far too inconsistent to rely on for consistent bench scoring. With the original expected lineup we'd have Tatum and Morris first off the bench. That would work fine. But without Hayward and Morris we're missing two guys who can put up buckets and the deep bench is too inexperienced to step up right now.
If we don't get good rebounding performances from Tatum and Brown we get killed on the glass. Baynes is effective some nights but not others which is to be expected from a guy in his role. Horford is what he is, an 8 board a night guy. This isn't an unexpected problem.
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The problem with this team - offensively anyway - is that we have a great #1 option in Kyrie, but no one's stepped up enough to be considered a reliable 2nd option. Al has been solid, but he's a 3rd option in the vein of Chris Bosh at best. Jaylen can do it in flashes, but he's still maddeningly inconsistent. Jayson might be the guy from a skillset stand point, but he's too passive at this point.
Yeah, and that man was Hayward. 25 ppg or so missing from the rotation. I think they would have pulled him earlier in the rotation too and let him really run things more as a point forward with the bench.
I have been really happy with this year and I'm very high on the team in the long run but without Hayward I expect the Celtics will be quite similar to last year in the Playoffs. Jaylen needs to figure things out and show consistency and I think Tatum is a star in the making but will need a season or two to be a consistent 20 ppg type. I really like Horford but he will never consistently be your second scorer, and at the end of the day you need to score.
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This is a typical sky is falling thread. But say for example it's not. the stuff that went right during the 16 game streak isn't happening consistently.
Again, there is no 'sky is falling' statement here. I said their offense may be broken and it is showing dangerous signs. Once again, that happened last night in Memphis where they completely tanked on offense in the 2nd quarter.
They were able to overcome this during their streak with stellar defense and a little luck. The defense has slid, but the offense from the second unit continues to be awful.
I stand by my original point that if this continues I can see difficult second half of the season.
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This thread sounds like what the Red Sox are up against at ESPN and MLB network. Run by a bunch of New Yorkers. A steady diet of the Yankees. Hey, who won the division last year?
Not so with the Celtics. The NY networks have been quieted by the Knicks and Nets. The Celtics main flak these days usually comes from LA LA land, and a few haters in Philly.
Didn't they win last night? Memphis is a tough place to win--defensive team.
I see Marc Gasol had a big night--which points to a persistent Celtics weakness: they still lack a big to defend another good big. Baynes isn't long enough, and Horford doesn't live near the basket. That's a flag for the playoffs. There will be guys they can't defend against well because they don't have the size up front. That should be on the menu for Danny. Get another big veteran who is defense oriented. Tyson Chandler, for example. The Suns would love for somebody to take him off their hands. I'm sure they would help. Remember PJ Brown?
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I see Marc Gasol had a big night--which points to a persistent Celtics weakness: they still lack a big to defend another good big. Baynes isn't long enough, and Horford doesn't live near the basket. That's a flag for the playoffs. There will be guys they can't defend against well because they don't have the size up front.
Sounds like you didn't watch the game. Gasol hit 4 3's, 5 long 2's, and didn't have a basket in the paint.
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Celtics will be fine
I'm predicting Hayward will be back early March. Help from the bench
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I see Marc Gasol had a big night--which points to a persistent Celtics weakness: they still lack a big to defend another good big. Baynes isn't long enough, and Horford doesn't live near the basket. That's a flag for the playoffs. There will be guys they can't defend against well because they don't have the size up front.
Sounds like you didn't watch the game. Gasol hit 4 3's, 5 long 2's, and didn't have a basket in the paint.
He simply couldnt miss in that third quarter.
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So a couple of losses and they're broken? Sigh.
agree...TP
sky is falling
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This is funny because about 2 days ago I complained we were too much of a 1 man show and 10 posters basically told me I was over-reacting.
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This is funny because about 2 days ago I complained we were too much of a 1 man show and 10 posters basically told me I was over-reacting.
Not sure why this is funny.
Like 80% of this thread is posters telling people not to overreact.
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This is a typical sky is falling thread. But say for example it's not. the stuff that went right during the 16 game streak isn't happening consistently.
Again, there is no 'sky is falling' statement here. I said their offense may be broken and it is showing dangerous signs. Once again, that happened last night in Memphis where they completely tanked on offense in the 2nd quarter.
They were able to overcome this during their streak with stellar defense and a little luck. The defense has slid, but the offense from the second unit continues to be awful.
I stand by my original point that if this continues I can see difficult second half of the season.
Is it? The C's are 11th in ORtg this season and that ranking has been getting better as the season has been moving along.
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I see Marc Gasol had a big night--which points to a persistent Celtics weakness: they still lack a big to defend another good big. Baynes isn't long enough, and Horford doesn't live near the basket. That's a flag for the playoffs. There will be guys they can't defend against well because they don't have the size up front.
Sounds like you didn't watch the game. Gasol hit 4 3's, 5 long 2's, and didn't have a basket in the paint.
He simply couldnt miss in that third quarter.
He was special and his release is so quick.
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Best record in the east with one of the lowest minutes weighted average ages in the league and were broken.
Sigh. The melts continue.
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This thread sounds like what the Red Sox are up against at ESPN and MLB network. Run by a bunch of New Yorkers. A steady diet of the Yankees. Hey, who won the division last year?
Not so with the Celtics. The NY networks have been quieted by the Knicks and Nets. The Celtics main flak these days usually comes from LA LA land, and a few haters in Philly.
Didn't they win last night? Memphis is a tough place to win--defensive team.
I see Marc Gasol had a big night--which points to a persistent Celtics weakness: they still lack a big to defend another good big. Baynes isn't long enough, and Horford doesn't live near the basket. That's a flag for the playoffs. There will be guys they can't defend against well because they don't have the size up front. That should be on the menu for Danny. Get another big veteran who is defense oriented. Tyson Chandler, for example. The Suns would love for somebody to take him off their hands. I'm sure they would help. Remember PJ Brown?
didnt many of gasol's points come from three point shots? i thought the biggest problem on defense for the celtics last game was perimeter defense.
EDIT: ooops, eddie already made this point. tp to him! ;D
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I'm confused as to what people thought this team would be, especially after Hayward went down, if not exactly what it is.
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I'm confused as to what people thought this team would be, especially after Hayward went down, if not exactly what it is.
It is not about what you think they would be, but what they are. Right now, that is .500 team for the last 15 games.
Edit: That above state is wrong and they are a .600 team
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I love when a pessimist corrects his pessimism.
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I'm confused as to what people thought this team would be, especially after Hayward went down, if not exactly what it is.
It is not about what you think they would be, but what they are. Right now, that is .500 team for the last 15 games.
Edit: That above state is wrong and they are a .600 team
Still not right. They have a 66.7% winning percentage in their last 15. Closer to 70% than 60%.
FYI:
65% winning percentage is the equivalent of about a 53 win team.
70% winning percentage is the equivalent of about a 57 win team.
So this team has been playing at the rate of a 53-57 win team over the last 15 games during their drop off. Also consider the fact that they have had the most front loaded schedule in the league and are probably pretty tired right now and have been lacking in practice time.
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practice is overrated at this point in the season.
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practice is overrated at this point in the season.
Definitely shows how little it matters when the Celtics have consistently improved their record in the second half of the season every year of Stevens' coaching tenure.
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A lot of it is improved rotations but practice and especially rest due to having off days for practice are tremendously important when it comes to a Stevens' led team.
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practice is overrated at this point in the season.
Definitely shows how little it matters when the Celtics have consistently improved their record in the second half of the season every year of Stevens' coaching tenure.
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A lot of it is improved rotations but practice and especially rest due to having off days for practice are tremendously important when it comes to a Stevens' led team.
The Cavs don't practice at all and have won 19 of 20 games. Practice is great in the off season and to get you ready for the season, but it really isn't all that useful to a team during the season (it is also why you often see videos of guys coming back from injury playing 4 on 4, but those 8 often include staff, deep bench players, etc.). Film study is far more useful, which is why teams do that.
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Believe Celtics have played the most games of any team in the league so far this season. That stuff matters. I don't have any deeper stats - like, for example, how many games on the road, how many miles traveled, how many back-to-backs - but playing a tighter schedule early in the year could pay off later on, after the All-Star break.
Encouraging to see a W on night 2 of a B2B over Memphis. Tight schedule this week too.
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practice is overrated at this point in the season.
Definitely shows how little it matters when the Celtics have consistently improved their record in the second half of the season every year of Stevens' coaching tenure.
..
A lot of it is improved rotations but practice and especially rest due to having off days for practice are tremendously important when it comes to a Stevens' led team.
The Cavs don't practice at all and have won 19 of 20 games. Practice is great in the off season and to get you ready for the season, but it really isn't all that useful to a team during the season (it is also why you often see videos of guys coming back from injury playing 4 on 4, but those 8 often include staff, deep bench players, etc.). Film study is far more useful, which is why teams do that.
Cleveland is a very veteran team. Those type of teams need days off more than they need practice. Remember that was the way Doc handle the last 3 years of the Big 3 era.
These Celtics are ridiculously young and will need the practice to reinforce fundamentals on the offensive sets and defensive rotations. With the amount of days off between games in the second half of the season, I see Stevens practicing the team a lot
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I'm confused as to what people thought this team would be, especially after Hayward went down, if not exactly what it is.
It is not about what you think they would be, but what they are. Right now, that is .500 team for the last 15 games.
Edit: That above state is wrong and they are a .600 team
Still not right. They have a 66.7% winning percentage in their last 15. Closer to 70% than 60%.
FYI:
65% winning percentage is the equivalent of about a 53 win team.
70% winning percentage is the equivalent of about a 57 win team.
So this team has been playing at the rate of a 53-57 win team over the last 15 games during their drop off. Also consider the fact that they have had the most front loaded schedule in the league and are probably pretty tired right now and have been lacking in practice time.
I posted that before they came back last night, so I was assuming a loss and rounding.
Also, if they play like a 53-win team for the rest of the season then yes I will be disappointed because that's the same result as last year, and that did not end well in my view.
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I'm confused as to what people thought this team would be, especially after Hayward went down, if not exactly what it is.
It is not about what you think they would be, but what they are. Right now, that is .500 team for the last 15 games.
Edit: That above state is wrong and they are a .600 team
Still not right. They have a 66.7% winning percentage in their last 15. Closer to 70% than 60%.
FYI:
65% winning percentage is the equivalent of about a 53 win team.
70% winning percentage is the equivalent of about a 57 win team.
So this team has been playing at the rate of a 53-57 win team over the last 15 games during their drop off. Also consider the fact that they have had the most front loaded schedule in the league and are probably pretty tired right now and have been lacking in practice time.
I posted that before they came back last night, so I was assuming a loss and rounding.
Also, if they play like a 53-win team for the rest of the season then yes I will be disappointed because that's the same result as last year, and that did not end well in my view.
:o
After losing Hayward in the first game, you'd be disappointed in a 53 win season? That's preposterous.
BTW, if they play at a 53-win pace for the remainder of the year, they'll finish 57-25.
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I think they are playing way too many games these few weeks (to make up for that London game?) and are definitely feeling it.
They are dealing with some injuries too, which is especially hurting the bench.
And yes, even if we continue to play at a .667 pace the rest of the way, that’s incredible considering we lost Hayward less than 6 minutes into the season. Nobody could have asked for more than that on October 18th. So we have 49 games remaining and @ a 67% winning percentage, that’s another 33 wins, putting us at 59 wins. That’s a superb season considering the overhaul and injury to Hayward. If we go on another run, we can definitely win over 60.
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practice is overrated at this point in the season.
Definitely shows how little it matters when the Celtics have consistently improved their record in the second half of the season every year of Stevens' coaching tenure.
..
A lot of it is improved rotations but practice and especially rest due to having off days for practice are tremendously important when it comes to a Stevens' led team.
The Cavs don't practice at all and have won 19 of 20 games. Practice is great in the off season and to get you ready for the season, but it really isn't all that useful to a team during the season (it is also why you often see videos of guys coming back from injury playing 4 on 4, but those 8 often include staff, deep bench players, etc.). Film study is far more useful, which is why teams do that.
Cleveland is a very veteran team. Those type of teams need days off more than they need practice. Remember that was the way Doc handle the last 3 years of the Big 3 era.
These Celtics are ridiculously young and will need the practice to reinforce fundamentals on the offensive sets and defensive rotations. With the amount of days off between games in the second half of the season, I see Stevens practicing the team a lot
Maybe, maybe not. The Cavs are older sure, but they also have a lot of new players this year.
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So yeah...this team is in trouble. Get beat by Jonas Jerebko, get blown out by the Bulls, lose to Kelly Olynyk. It took a Pacers turnover to beat the Pacers.
This team looks like a #5-seeded team without that massive win streak.
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Form comes and goes. We also held Golden State to 88 points earlier in the season, beat the Spurs and a bunch of others strong clubs, so I am not overly reacting either way.
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Form comes and goes. We also held Golden State to 88 points earlier in the season, beat the Spurs and a bunch of others strong clubs, so I am not overly reacting either way.
We routinely play to the level of our opponents
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So yeah...this team is in trouble. Get beat by Jonas Jerebko, get blown out by the Bulls, lose to Kelly Olynyk. It took a Pacers turnover to beat the Pacers.
This team looks like a #5-seeded team without that massive win streak.
Everyone down on the C's right now wants to bring that up, and it's true, but it cuts both ways. The C's blew a lead and lost by just 3 points to the Spurs and were a Kyrie mid range J from winning last night. As easily as the C's could be 3-5 in their last 8 games they could just as easily be 6-2. Let's not overreact to an underwhelming stretch.
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So yeah...this team is in trouble. Get beat by Jonas Jerebko, get blown out by the Bulls, lose to Kelly Olynyk. It took a Pacers turnover to beat the Pacers.
This team looks like a #5-seeded team without that massive win streak.
Everyone down on the C's right now wants to bring that up, and it's true, but it cuts both ways. The C's blew a lead and lost by just 3 points to the Spurs and were a Kyrie mid range J from winning last night. As easily as the C's could be 3-5 in their last 8 games they could just as easily be 6-2. Let's not overreact to an underwhelming stretch.
Just be ready for a long season...
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This team needs to rejuvenate.
They are tired and its obvious..Kyrie's shot usually finds the middle of the net is now either short, flat and clanking..same with Rozier and Al.
We need R E S T.
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So yeah...this team is in trouble. Get beat by Jonas Jerebko, get blown out by the Bulls, lose to Kelly Olynyk. It took a Pacers turnover to beat the Pacers.
This team looks like a #5-seeded team without that massive win streak.
Everyone down on the C's right now wants to bring that up, and it's true, but it cuts both ways. The C's blew a lead and lost by just 3 points to the Spurs and were a Kyrie mid range J from winning last night. As easily as the C's could be 3-5 in their last 8 games they could just as easily be 6-2. Let's not overreact to an underwhelming stretch.
Just be ready for a long season...
Point still stands as the Celtics just lost to the Knicks...of all teams.
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I think it's time for a players-only meeting. Celtics have been dropping games left and right, and especially on games they should be winning. I would understand losing to the Spurs..but really, the Knicks, the Bulls, the Jazz?? Let Kelly Olynyk and his Heat light up the Celtics?
Oh mang.
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The problem is the team is top heavy and lacks veteran depth on the bench. Brown and Morris are out so we are left scrambling relying on rookie ojeleye off the bench and what not
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So yeah...this team is in trouble. Get beat by Jonas Jerebko, get blown out by the Bulls, lose to Kelly Olynyk. It took a Pacers turnover to beat the Pacers.
This team looks like a #5-seeded team without that massive win streak.
Everyone down on the C's right now wants to bring that up, and it's true, but it cuts both ways. The C's blew a lead and lost by just 3 points to the Spurs and were a Kyrie mid range J from winning last night. As easily as the C's could be 3-5 in their last 8 games they could just as easily be 6-2. Let's not overreact to an underwhelming stretch.
Just be ready for a long season...
Always.
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NO REBOUNDING NO DEFENSE NO ENERGY. They just look done as if the season is over.
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I like where we're at now as a team...
- Jaylen is currently the 5th most improved player, scoring-wise
- Tatum is on the trajectory to be a superstar
- We are getting valuable minutes from Thies, Baynes, Rozier and Larkin
- Kyrie is a legitimate MVP candidate
- CBS is a legitimate Coach of the Year candidate
- Horford is playing excellent basketball
- We have the best record in the league despite having the most hectic schedule
The one thing I dislike about this team is Marcus Morris... I don't think he fits this team and CBS' system... he's a shoot first gunner and he constantly force shots on the second unit... ball movement basically dies once it touches his hands. The Celtics aren't broken but I can smell us using the DPE soon..
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I wonder if the schedule is catching up to them and they are tired, not much time to practice. they mentioned during the game how the raptors have one more loss than us BUT we have played something like 4-5 games more than them. that is a pretty big difference in games played.
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The one thing I dislike about this team is Marcus Morris... I don't think he fits this team and CBS' system... he's a shoot first gunner and he constantly force shots on the second unit... ball movement basically dies once it touches his hands. The Celtics aren't broken but I can smell us using the DPE soon..
Morris has had his moments, but he looks terrible when he is off. If we are going to have a player iso and take fall-away long 2s, I want that player to be either Irving or Tatum. Morris needs to work on the defensive end and become less of a ball-stopper on the offensive end if he has any chance of sticking around. He has a great contract, but that doesn't mean he is a great player.
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I like where we're at now as a team...
- Jaylen is currently the 5th most improved player, scoring-wise
- Tatum is on the trajectory to be a superstar
- We are getting valuable minutes from Thies, Baynes, Rozier and Larkin
- Kyrie is a legitimate MVP candidate
- CBS is a legitimate Coach of the Year candidate
- Horford is playing excellent basketball
- We have the best record in the league despite having the most hectic schedule
The one thing I dislike about this team is Marcus Morris... I don't think he fits this team and CBS' system... he's a shoot first gunner and he constantly force shots on the second unit... ball movement basically dies once it touches his hands. The Celtics aren't broken but I can smell us using the DPE soon..
The way we've been playing lately, most of those things are false.