CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: celticsclay on November 27, 2017, 01:25:11 AM
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Both starting to make some comments to the media. They just want him to move on. He should be released pretty soon http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21581687/jahlil-okafor-philadelphia-76ers-limbo-hoping-resolution
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I don’t know the whole situation there but he signed a contract and the Sixers are keeping up their end of the pact, I’m sure his checks keep coming.
He and his agent can whine and moan all they want, but any team shouldn’t be forced to release them or make a trade they don’t want because a player is unhappy.
Okafor want to take a free buyout? Thought so.
Too many players want to have their cake and eat it too. He wouldn’t make nearly what he is now if he was able to sign a new contract. He’s not even a washed up star like Wade or Melo demanding out, but still wanting a significant portion of their salary. He’s a nobody. Earn your burn or wait ‘til you aren’t under contract and do whatever you please. It’s not like teams go to the media about a guy they signed who is underperforming and wish he would just rip up the contract and go sign with another team.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
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I don’t know the whole situation there but he signed a contract and the Sixers are keeping up their end of the pact, I’m sure his checks keep coming.
He and his agent can whine and moan all they want, but any team shouldn’t be forced to release them or make a trade they don’t want because a player is unhappy.
Okafor want to take a free buyout? Thought so.
Too many players want to have their cake and eat it too. He wouldn’t make nearly what he is now if he was able to sign a new contract. He’s not even a washed up star like Wade or Melo demanding out, but still wanting a significant portion of their salary. He’s a nobody. Earn your burn or wait ‘til you aren’t under contract and do whatever you please. It’s not like teams go to the media about a guy they signed who is underperforming and wish he would just rip up the contract and go sign with another team.
It seems like they are playing him out of spite or something else. I've been a harsh critic of his but he is good enough to give them 5 minutes here and there for spot offense. They just don't play him at all
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why isnt he playing?
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We could use him as a scorer on the bench. He rebounds and scores. I’ll take it
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
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We could use him as a scorer on the bench. He rebounds and scores. I’ll take it
He doesn't rebound. His total rebound rate is about 12%. Compare that to Baynes this year at 16 and Theis at 18%. He is actually one of the worst defensive rebounders in the league. He converts just 44.8 percent of his defensive rebound chances into rebounds. That would rank him 287th out of 294 players.
And for his scoring? His ability to score in the post is his only skill. And even then he ranks about the middle of the pack. Post up scoring isn't exactly something in high demand anymore in the league and offenses have clearly moved away from it. He is also a terrible free throw shooter. Compare Okafor to Enes Kanter. Neither play a lick of defense, are slow as molasses, and bog down your offense since they are also terrible passers and can only score in the post. Kanter though is better at post up scoring, is a great defensive rebounder, can set screens, and can shoot free throws. Okafor's ceiling is probably a worse rebounding and shooting version of Enes Kanter. That is not what teams want out of their big man now.
Okafor needs to go where he can get minutes and rebuild his entire game. Brad is an expert at getting the most out of players and using them in his system. But that roster spot is better used on someone who can help more immediately. And if Brad works miracles with Okafor this year, could they even sign him long term?
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
I'll cosign this.
Why weren't Covington and Mcconell ruined by the process? Why isn't Noel excelling in Dallas now that he's free of the tyranny of Philadelphia? Why is Philly "lucky" they got Embiid and Simmons but any other team that drafts a star player isn't (Boston, excluded, since they drafted their young stars with someone else's pick)?
Philly is lucky in that the draft always requires some luck, but less so than most other teams because they engineered better odds for themselves than those others teams. They gave themselves room to whif on Okafor and Noel (and possibly Fultz) and wound up with two guy who might be foundational stars for the next 15 years.
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Could use his inside scoring for some buckets , imstead of throwing the ball at the rim for NO points as happens most of the time when the second group enters . Sure 2 's in the paint beat bricked 3 by the dozen beyond the arc.
Oakfor or Monroe would abuse most bench squads.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
I'll cosign this.
Why weren't Covington and Mcconell ruined by the process? Why isn't Noel excelling in Dallas now that he's free of the tyranny of Philadelphia? Why is Philly "lucky" they got Embiid and Simmons but any other team that drafts a star player isn't (Boston, excluded, since they drafted their young stars with someone else's pick)?
Philly is lucky in that the draft always requires some luck, but less so than most other teams because they engineered better odds for themselves than those others teams. They gave themselves room to whif on Okafor and Noel (and possibly Fultz) and wound up with two guy who might be foundational stars for the next 15 years.
Noel absolutely has no cause for complaint. Okafor, less so. He was the third center drafted in three years. His rookie year, he had to play nearly half his minutes with Noel, which was obviously going to be a terrible fit. He wasn’t spectacular his rookie year, but neither did he look like a bust.
Then he got hurt. Supposedly it was a minor knee injury, with a short recovery time (6 weeks) after surgery. Since it happened in March, that ended his season. And then it turned into a much longer injury. Now maybe it was always a bigger deal than the Sixers said it was, maybe Okafor’s rehab went poorly, or maybe the surgery messed up. There’s no was to know,!especially with the Sixers, although based on how they handled several other injuries under Colangelo (Simmons and Embiid last year, arguably Fultz this year), my guess is that the Sixers lied about the severity. So during his second season he played hurt because the Sixers wanted to trade him, before getting surgery to correct the same knee issue shortly after the trade deadline passed.
And then there’s how the Sixers have handled trading him. Recall last year before the All-Star break when they didn’t play him, and even sent him home to go pack, because a trade was imminent. Of course, that never happened. Okafor certainly was embarrassed (who wouldn’t be), but said nothing publicly. They gave his agent permission to go seek out trade destinations — his agent did, but Colangelo decided the offers brought back to him weren’t good enough. If you value the guy that’s one thing, but instead they declined his option and are refusing to play him.
Okafor is going to be a free agent this year and probably hasn’t been healthy on a basketball court for 22 momths, and the Sixers, for reasons that no one can understand, are refusing to let him play after refusing every trade offer received. He should absolutely be upset.
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I don’t know the whole situation there but he signed a contract and the Sixers are keeping up their end of the pact, I’m sure his checks keep coming.
He and his agent can whine and moan all they want, but any team shouldn’t be forced to release them or make a trade they don’t want because a player is unhappy.
Okafor want to take a free buyout? Thought so.
Too many players want to have their cake and eat it too. He wouldn’t make nearly what he is now if he was able to sign a new contract. He’s not even a washed up star like Wade or Melo demanding out, but still wanting a significant portion of their salary. He’s a nobody. Earn your burn or wait ‘til you aren’t under contract and do whatever you please. It’s not like teams go to the media about a guy they signed who is underperforming and wish he would just rip up the contract and go sign with another team.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/08/2d/03/082d030b5fc1803f25b7b3d599d8469c--original-art-green-beer.jpg)
Hi, I’m Kyrie, the elephant in the room. ;)
While I agree with you in principle, Celtics fans just cannot complain about guys under contract trying to force trades.
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He wants to play for his next contract. His current team is killing the chance for that to happen by never putting him in.
I understand his frustration.
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I don’t know the whole situation there but he signed a contract and the Sixers are keeping up their end of the pact, I’m sure his checks keep coming.
He and his agent can whine and moan all they want, but any team shouldn’t be forced to release them or make a trade they don’t want because a player is unhappy.
Okafor want to take a free buyout? Thought so.
Too many players want to have their cake and eat it too. He wouldn’t make nearly what he is now if he was able to sign a new contract. He’s not even a washed up star like Wade or Melo demanding out, but still wanting a significant portion of their salary. He’s a nobody. Earn your burn or wait ‘til you aren’t under contract and do whatever you please. It’s not like teams go to the media about a guy they signed who is underperforming and wish he would just rip up the contract and go sign with another team.
This is affecting his long-term ability to make money. If he doesn't have time to impact another team, then his next contract will either be a minimum or overseas. They have been patient for over a year now.
Its the Sixers who are being greedy at the expense of yet another player's career.
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and people thought Hinkie was a problem.
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Noel absolutely has no cause for complaint. Okafor, less so.
He should absolutely be upset.
I'm a little confused by the first part but I think I understand your point.
If you're saying Okafor has a reason to be upset because Philly mismanaged his injury (and given Philly's recent history, there is certainly reason to believe that) then you'll get no argument from me. Obviously I don't know anything about the specifics of the injury or how it was handled but if Philly's team didn't handle it correctly, Okafor has plenty of reason to be upset.
But I do agree with tazzmaniac that blaming "the process" for ruining Okafor and Noel's careers is nonsense.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.
I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
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Seems like they are willing to trade him for a 2nd round pick now. I would buy him out since I don't think it's worth the hassle to keep him on the team - against him wish - with the view of getting a 2nd round pick for him.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.
I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.
Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.
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Rightfully so. He didn't ask to be drafted by the Sixers but I think he's expressed great decorum given the circumstances. Not everybody can be molded into a teo-way player. There were questions about his defense and motor well before he was drafted and Sixers took the chance anyway.
Now they know he won't have a future with the franchise yet they won't release him. They aren't giving him any playing time but are trying to draw lines in the sand when negotiating his trade value. It's just non sense. Let the kid go so he can move on with his life.
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the strangest thing to me is, if they played him and he played well they would increase his value and if he played poorly, well at least then you played him and gave him the chance. And they clearly could play him at least a little bit. The fact that he isn't playing at all is just not a good look for the franchise.
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They are trying to win games now.. No (Sorry).. They are actually winning games now. They are a fast paced team that is giving teams problems.. They play with pace (like We do) Okafor does not fit that style of play their..
And I know he isnt playing in the games but is he also not practicing either.. Are we suggesting that Ok is killing it in practice and still not getting any burn?
This idea that some feel that we need this guy to come in and bog our paint down is mindboggling to me.. In what world does Okafor switch out on Defense? Where in the heavens has he ever stretched the floor (Ever) Where are our other 3PT shooters on the bench that could help give him room to work.. He is also a poor passer out of the double team.. Doesnt he need to be able to do that at least?
This guy is Al Jefferson 2.0 and Al has been thrown from team to team and can barely get off the bench in Indy at this point.. (because they play fast as well)
What would be the point in getting Two from him on one side of the court and giving up 2', 3's and And ones' on the other.. I would rather send a second to Indy for AJ.. Hes a vet who wont whine if he can't get off the bench..
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Both Sixers and Mavs are showing that, yes, they are in fact run by petty, spiteful, greedy morons. I expected this form Philly, I did not expect it from Dallas.
I hope this leaves a stain on both franchises and causes agents to steer their players away from these two clown shows.
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He absolutely has a right to be frustrated. They've declined his option for next year, meaning he'll be an unrestricted free agent as of this summer. Instead of him playing and showing what he can do, the Sixers have parked him on the bench while they seek a trade for, what exactly, a high 2nd round pick?
People somehow are now impressed by "the Process" now that they've got Embiid and Simmons and they're playing .500 ball. Congratulations, you've got two potential cornerstone young guys. There are about ten teams (including the Celtics) who can say that about themselves. And for the Sixers, one is at risk of major injury every time he steps on the floor, and the other can't shoot a jumpshot to save his life. Great young players, don't get me wrong. But your franchise is reviled around the league and you just suffered the embarrassment of winning 22 games per year over a half decade, and this is what you've got.
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Noel absolutely has no cause for complaint. Okafor, less so.
He should absolutely be upset.
I'm a little confused by the first part but I think I understand your point.
If you're saying Okafor has a reason to be upset because Philly mismanaged his injury (and given Philly's recent history, there is certainly reason to believe that) then you'll get no argument from me. Obviously I don't know anything about the specifics of the injury or how it was handled but if Philly's team didn't handle it correctly, Okafor has plenty of reason to be upset.
But I do agree with tazzmaniac that blaming "the process" for ruining Okafor and Noel's careers is nonsense.
Poorly worded, but essentially that. I do think “the process” had some impact on his injury treatment, however. By selecting three top picks who could not share the floor together, Okafor was viewed more as a trade asset once Embiid showed himself to be a potential HOFer. The Sixers a) seemed to feel that the best way to get value for this asset was to play him while injured before last year’s deadline, and b) did not want to trade him for too little considering the resources spent in drafting him. Had Okafor been drafted by another team, they may have tried to make sure he got fully healthy before playing, viewing him as a long-term player, much like the Sixers themselves handled Embiid.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.
I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.
Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.
I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.
Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
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Can he become a good rebounder and a good defender? To date, the results don't look good. But I believe in Brad.
Can we use someone that is gifted in the paint? During cold spells and/or crunch time when it becomes a slow, half-court game, absolutely!
I wouldn't give up much for him but I'd like to see it happen mostly because I think he's got the skills and I have faith in Brad to bring it out.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.
I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.
Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.
I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.
Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons. The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all. He just wasn't very good.
Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team. He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove. The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.
I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.
Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.
I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.
Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons. The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all. He just wasn't very good.
Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team. He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove. The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).
I edited the comment above to include this list.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.
I realize that many of them would not have panned out anyway, including, as you mentioned MCW. But many scouts saw potential in a lot of these players that could have developed. The Sixers could not and did not in "the process." I think you could easily argue it is because of "the process" that those players did not develop.
The success of the process has been Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, and Robert Covington. McConnell and Fultz remain to be seen. Still, that's not a great percentage, and that is sacrificing a lot of players for the franchise.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.
I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.
Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.
I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.
Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
It's possible MCW learned bad habits in Philly but I think it's just as possible that the only reason we know his name now is because Philly gave him an opportunity to play that no other team would have because he just isn't that good.
I'm still confused about Turner. He was on Philly when they were a playoff team and was traded to another playoff team when "the process" began, when he was 25. Whatever Turner's development curve was is on the previous administration.
EDIT: Sorry for basically repeating Moranis, I didn't see his post when I wrote my reply.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.
I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.
Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.
I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.
Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons. The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all. He just wasn't very good.
Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team. He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove. The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).
I edited the comment above to include this list.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.
I realize that many of them would not have panned out anyway, including, as you mentioned MCW. But many scouts saw potential in a lot of these players that could have developed. The Sixers could not and did not in "the process." I think you could easily argue it is because of "the process" that those players did not develop.
The success of the process has been Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, and Robert Covington. McConnell and Fultz remain to be seen. Still, that's not a great percentage.
Turner isn't a good example. He was drafted onto a team that made the playoffs his first two seasons. One that made the 2nd round in his 2nd year. You can't include players like that. Hawes was in his 4th year when he went to Philly and again was on those playoff teams that Turner was on. Tony Wroten played his 1st year in Memphis, and hasn't been in the league since his stint in Philly. What impact did he make? Canaan played a 1.5 years in the league before Philly and has played 1 game for Houston this year, what is that impact he made outside of Philly and why should Philly be blamed for the 1.5 years in Houston before he came to Philly? Thomas Robinson bounced from team to team before Philly, where he had by far his best season and is now out of the league. Grant had his best seasons in Philly, but is still a solid enough role player. The fact that he is in the league is a testament to Philly not a negative. I mean not many 2nd round picks last 4 seasons (and he will almost certainly get a 2nd contract). Dedmon was undrafted and signed by the Warriors. He bounced around to 3 teams as a rookie on 10 day contracts. How is this a knock on the Process? KJ McDaniels was a 2nd round pick who still was most effective on the Sixers for 1/2 a season and who is now out of the league having been cut by the Raptors before the season started? Houston had him for 2+ seasons and the Nets didn't even keep him after he played there last year.
I can go on if you'd like, but you aren't proving your position, you are actually strengthening the opposite position the more you post on this. And seriously, you are basing your opinion on undrafted players like Brandon Davies, Christian Wood, and Jakarr Sampson. The fact they even played in the league is amazing. And you can't just ignore the success stories like Richaun Holmes, TJ McConnell, Robert Covington, and Tim Frazier (plus Grant from above). All either 2nd round picks or undrafted, and all on 2nd contracts (or will all get 2nd contracts). Or a guy like Ish Smith, who bounced around the league a lot before finding a role in Philly and earning a nice pay day from Detroit.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.
I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.
Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.
I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.
Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons. The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all. He just wasn't very good.
Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team. He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove. The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).
I edited the comment above to include this list.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.
I realize that many of them would not have panned out anyway, including, as you mentioned MCW. But many scouts saw potential in a lot of these players that could have developed. The Sixers could not and did not in "the process." I think you could easily argue it is because of "the process" that those players did not develop.
The success of the process has been Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, and Robert Covington. McConnell and Fultz remain to be seen. Still, that's not a great percentage.
Turner isn't a good example. He was drafted onto a team that made the playoffs his first two seasons. One that made the 2nd round in his 2nd year. You can't include players like that. Hawes was in his 4th year when he went to Philly and again was on those playoff teams that Turner was on. Tony Wroten played his 1st year in Memphis, and hasn't been in the league since his stint in Philly. What impact did he make? Canaan played a 1.5 years in the league before Philly and has played 1 game for Houston this year, what is that impact he made outside of Philly and why should Philly be blamed for the 1.5 years in Houston before he came to Philly? Thomas Robinson bounced from team to team before Philly, where he had by far his best season and is now out of the league. Grant had his best seasons in Philly, but is still a solid enough role player. The fact that he is in the league is a testament to Philly not a negative. I mean not many 2nd round picks last 4 seasons (and he will almost certainly get a 2nd contract). Dedmon was undrafted and signed by the Warriors. He bounced around to 3 teams as a rookie on 10 day contracts. How is this a knock on the Process? KJ McDaniels was a 2nd round pick who still was most effective on the Sixers for 1/2 a season and who is now out of the league having been cut by the Raptors before the season started? Houston had him for 2+ seasons and the Nets didn't even keep him after he played there last year.
I can go on if you'd like, but you aren't proving your position, you are actually strengthening the opposite position the more you post on this. And seriously, you are basing your opinion on undrafted players like Brandon Davies, Christian Wood, and Jakarr Sampson. The fact they even played in the league is amazing. And you can't just ignore the success stories like Richaun Holmes, TJ McConnell, Robert Covington, and Tim Frazier (plus Grant from above). All either 2nd round picks or undrafted, and all on 2nd contracts (or will all get 2nd contracts). Or a guy like Ish Smith, who bounced around the league a lot before finding a role in Philly and earning a nice pay day from Detroit.
I stand corrected on Turner and MCW, but I still think the others on that list are possible examples. Its hard to say, because its such a fluid situation. Did they struggled because of their ability, or because of the team development, or both, or neither?
I think you'd be hard-pressed to say "the process" had nothing to do with the lack of success with all of those players. Perhaps it wasn't all "the process" fault, but it seems like it did have a negative impact.
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We could use him as a scorer on the bench. He rebounds and scores. I’ll take it
No, doesn't rebound. Last year DRR 15.5% ORR 7.8% in 1134 minutes. No ambiguity here: that is plain awful.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.
I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.
Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.
I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.
Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons. The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all. He just wasn't very good.
Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team. He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove. The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).
I edited the comment above to include this list.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.
I realize that many of them would not have panned out anyway, including, as you mentioned MCW. But many scouts saw potential in a lot of these players that could have developed. The Sixers could not and did not in "the process." I think you could easily argue it is because of "the process" that those players did not develop.
The success of the process has been Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, and Robert Covington. McConnell and Fultz remain to be seen. Still, that's not a great percentage, and that is sacrificing a lot of players for the franchise.
And doing so makes your comment even more nonsensical. Most of the players you mention were late 1st or worse picks. Sully was more highly rated than pretty much all of them and he's playing in China now.
Hawes was a 6 year vet before the process started. Turner had played 3 seasons before the process started. Hinkie wisely traded both of them a half season into the process. Hinkie made a steal of a trade getting a good unprotected 1st for MCW. MCW subsequently flopped in Milwaukee and Chicago. McDaniels played less than a season for the Sixers. He subsequently flopped for 2 more seasons in Houston. Dedmon only played 11 games for the Sixers. He was traded twice in the 13-14 season alone. Grant actually is a process success story, He played a lot during his couple years with the Sixers and OKC actually gave up a protected 1st for him.
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.
I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.
Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.
I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.
Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons. The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all. He just wasn't very good.
Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team. He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove. The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).
I edited the comment above to include this list.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.
I realize that many of them would not have panned out anyway, including, as you mentioned MCW. But many scouts saw potential in a lot of these players that could have developed. The Sixers could not and did not in "the process." I think you could easily argue it is because of "the process" that those players did not develop.
The success of the process has been Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, and Robert Covington. McConnell and Fultz remain to be seen. Still, that's not a great percentage.
Turner isn't a good example. He was drafted onto a team that made the playoffs his first two seasons. One that made the 2nd round in his 2nd year. You can't include players like that. Hawes was in his 4th year when he went to Philly and again was on those playoff teams that Turner was on. Tony Wroten played his 1st year in Memphis, and hasn't been in the league since his stint in Philly. What impact did he make? Canaan played a 1.5 years in the league before Philly and has played 1 game for Houston this year, what is that impact he made outside of Philly and why should Philly be blamed for the 1.5 years in Houston before he came to Philly? Thomas Robinson bounced from team to team before Philly, where he had by far his best season and is now out of the league. Grant had his best seasons in Philly, but is still a solid enough role player. The fact that he is in the league is a testament to Philly not a negative. I mean not many 2nd round picks last 4 seasons (and he will almost certainly get a 2nd contract). Dedmon was undrafted and signed by the Warriors. He bounced around to 3 teams as a rookie on 10 day contracts. How is this a knock on the Process? KJ McDaniels was a 2nd round pick who still was most effective on the Sixers for 1/2 a season and who is now out of the league having been cut by the Raptors before the season started? Houston had him for 2+ seasons and the Nets didn't even keep him after he played there last year.
I can go on if you'd like, but you aren't proving your position, you are actually strengthening the opposite position the more you post on this. And seriously, you are basing your opinion on undrafted players like Brandon Davies, Christian Wood, and Jakarr Sampson. The fact they even played in the league is amazing. And you can't just ignore the success stories like Richaun Holmes, TJ McConnell, Robert Covington, and Tim Frazier (plus Grant from above). All either 2nd round picks or undrafted, and all on 2nd contracts (or will all get 2nd contracts). Or a guy like Ish Smith, who bounced around the league a lot before finding a role in Philly and earning a nice pay day from Detroit.
I stand corrected on Turner and MCW, but I still think the others on that list are possible examples. Its hard to say, because its such a fluid situation. Did they struggled because of their ability, or because of the team development, or both, or neither?
I think you'd be hard-pressed to say "the process" had nothing to do with the lack of success with all of those players. Perhaps it wasn't all "the process" fault, but it seems like it did have a negative impact.
So using your same logic, what are you going to blame all our draft prospect failures on starting with Young and Sully?
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I respect him for speaking out at this point. The Sixers are one of the purer forms of trainwreck.
This...this is ‘the process’. They’ve destroyed Noel and Okafor’s careers because they were hell bent on being as bad as possible.
They got extremely lucky with Embiid and Simmons plus Simmons was after the Hinkie era where he had some type of mentors.
Nonsense. Noel and Okafor had plenty of opportunity to develop with Embiid missing 2.5 seasons. The Sixers have two undrafted players, McConnell and Covington, who have taken advantage of the opportunities that "the process" provided them.
Noel had a chance to sign a 70M deal with Dallas but his ego made him really stupid. Now he's not getting much playing time with Dallas. Where's the outrage with Carlisle not playing Noel?
Okafor was happy when he was getting his minutes on a lousy, losing team while being one of the worst defensive players in the league. Now he complains when they are winning because he can't beat out Amir and Holmes for playing time. He did have two opportunities to play when Embiid sat out this season. He put up hollow numbers in a blowout loss to the Raptors and had a terribly bad 3 minutes against the Jazz.
Maybe "destroyed" is too strong, but its pretty hard to argue that "the process" didn't significantly negatively affect both careers.
I think you could argue that "the process" negatively impacted both MCW and Evan Turner's career too, although CBS saved Turner.
How so? What's the evidence that MCW would've been better had he never gone to Philly? He was given every opportunity to play Milwaukee and then Chicago and was no good.
Turner I don't get either. He was traded out of Philly at the very beginning of "the process" and his career was in the toilet before the Celtics because he played so poorly in Indiana. I'm not sure how you blame Philly for that.
I think you are put in a significant disadvantage if the team you go to in your formative years does not develop you well. It could be because you are allowed to do whatever you want, and therefore learn bad habits, or because you are not developed in your abilities, or you lose confidence in your game.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism.
Its a disadvantage that can be overcome, but it does impact you negatively.
MCW was the 11th pick in a weak draft and played on the Sixers for 1.5 seasons. The Sixers didn't destroy his career at all. He just wasn't very good.
Turner isn't a good example because he was on the Sixers when they were still a playoff team. He is the exact opposite of what you are trying to prove. The Process didn't destroy Turner, Turner just wasn't very good (though that Process half season was by far Turner's most productive season).
I edited the comment above to include this list.
Turner is a good example. MCW may have never been good, but he had court vision and athleticism. Hawes, Dedmon, Grant, McDaniels, Robinson, Canaan, and Wroten all needed to find their impact on a basketball game on other teams. There are a host of other boom or bust prospects that didn't pan out either, like Mullens, Lorenzo Brown, Brandon Davies, Daniel Orten, Elliot Williams, Arnet Moultrie, Darius Johnson-Odom, Jakarr Sampson, and Christian Wood.
I realize that many of them would not have panned out anyway, including, as you mentioned MCW. But many scouts saw potential in a lot of these players that could have developed. The Sixers could not and did not in "the process." I think you could easily argue it is because of "the process" that those players did not develop.
The success of the process has been Ben Simmons, Joel Embiid, and Robert Covington. McConnell and Fultz remain to be seen. Still, that's not a great percentage.
Turner isn't a good example. He was drafted onto a team that made the playoffs his first two seasons. One that made the 2nd round in his 2nd year. You can't include players like that. Hawes was in his 4th year when he went to Philly and again was on those playoff teams that Turner was on. Tony Wroten played his 1st year in Memphis, and hasn't been in the league since his stint in Philly. What impact did he make? Canaan played a 1.5 years in the league before Philly and has played 1 game for Houston this year, what is that impact he made outside of Philly and why should Philly be blamed for the 1.5 years in Houston before he came to Philly? Thomas Robinson bounced from team to team before Philly, where he had by far his best season and is now out of the league. Grant had his best seasons in Philly, but is still a solid enough role player. The fact that he is in the league is a testament to Philly not a negative. I mean not many 2nd round picks last 4 seasons (and he will almost certainly get a 2nd contract). Dedmon was undrafted and signed by the Warriors. He bounced around to 3 teams as a rookie on 10 day contracts. How is this a knock on the Process? KJ McDaniels was a 2nd round pick who still was most effective on the Sixers for 1/2 a season and who is now out of the league having been cut by the Raptors before the season started? Houston had him for 2+ seasons and the Nets didn't even keep him after he played there last year.
I can go on if you'd like, but you aren't proving your position, you are actually strengthening the opposite position the more you post on this. And seriously, you are basing your opinion on undrafted players like Brandon Davies, Christian Wood, and Jakarr Sampson. The fact they even played in the league is amazing. And you can't just ignore the success stories like Richaun Holmes, TJ McConnell, Robert Covington, and Tim Frazier (plus Grant from above). All either 2nd round picks or undrafted, and all on 2nd contracts (or will all get 2nd contracts). Or a guy like Ish Smith, who bounced around the league a lot before finding a role in Philly and earning a nice pay day from Detroit.
I stand corrected on Turner and MCW, but I still think the others on that list are possible examples. Its hard to say, because its such a fluid situation. Did they struggled because of their ability, or because of the team development, or both, or neither?
I think you'd be hard-pressed to say "the process" had nothing to do with the lack of success with all of those players. Perhaps it wasn't all "the process" fault, but it seems like it did have a negative impact.
I will say it, the process had nothing to do with the lack of success with all of those players. They were 2nd round picks or undrafted players for a reason. They weren't high end prospects. MCW, Noel, and Okafor have been the only lottery picks that haven't panned out, and the fact that MCW and Noel have done nothing since Philly leads me easily to the conclusion that it wasn't Philly that was the problem, it was the players. I don't think Okafor is being treated fairly by Philly, but he was always a flawed player defensively, and his offensive strength is less important in the league these days so I'm not sure if he ended up in NY or LA he would have been a better player (I'm sure he would have played more, but that doesn't mean he would be better).
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How did this turn into debating the career of second round picks? Do people think philly should just release okafor at this point? It seems like his agent may start to hurt philly down the road by not going out of his way to send players there. That alone is probably worth a second round pick.
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They play with pace (like We do) Okafor does not fit that style of play their..
The Sixers and the Celtics play at very, very different paces.
The Sixers are 4th in the league in pace at 102.8 possessions per game.
The Celtics are 22nd in the league at 96.4 possessions per game.
Neither team actually scores all that much in transition. Both are middle-of-the-pack in fast break points per game (Boston is 16th, PHI is 20th). The Sixers do try more fast-break attempts but are in fact not really very good at it, ranking 26th in fast-break scoring efficiency. The C's are middle-of-the-pack at 19th.
The biggest difference between the two is that the Sixers tend to let opponents score quickly. Half of opponent shots come in the first 10 seconds of the shot clock and the Sixers are giving up 51.6 points per game on those shots.
The C's excel at slowing the game down on defense and forcing teams to play a half-court game. Only 44% of opponent shots are happening within the first 10 seconds of the shot-clock and they are giving up just 36.8 points per game on those shots.
And when Brad talks about playing with pace on offense, he isn't really talking about fast-break opportunities. He's talking about how fast the ball and players move when executing the offense. Quick, passing-with-purpose with multiple people touching the ball is a signature of Brad's offense when it is executed well. The C's use the clock and some 61% of their offense is _after_ 10 seconds into the clock.
The Sixers do try to work faster (as noted, they do more fast break attempts) and only 51% of their offense occurs after the first 10 seconds.
So, the net net of this is that: The C's work at a _very_ different 'pace' on both ends of the court than the Sixers do. They work much more methodically and more out of the half-court execution on both ends.
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Agree to disagree with some of you. I understand your way of thinking.
To me, there is too clear a connection between the way the philly organization has run itself and the lack of development in most of their prospects.
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Okafor makes sense only if he would help us this season win a championship. That is not the case. He is gone after the season, to sign with someone who is willing to pay more than we can, as we would not be getting his Bird rights.
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Okafor makes sense only if he would help us this season win a championship. That is not the case. He is gone after the season, to sign with someone who is willing to pay more than we can, as we would not be getting his Bird rights.
Depends if he were released and signed or if he were traded for.
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I think the problem with Okafor lies with the timeline of Philadelphia finally picking a direction. The 76ers used lottery picks three years in a row on big men with very little outside games. The problem for Philly was they realized too late that the direction the league was going and that your PF needs to be athletic and handle the ball. Was Philly too short sighted and didn't realize that the prototypical PF in Simmons would be available one year later? Did they not do their homework on Porzingis or reluctant to trade down for someone like Devin Booker?
I remember watching Okafor and Towns in college. Okafor was clearly the better college player and was unstoppable in the post. The difference in the pro's is that Minnesota built a team with Towns in mind. Philly, on the other hand, picked Okafor with him being the best player available at the time but didn't know what to do with him once he was drafted.
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Agree to disagree with some of you. I understand your way of thinking.
To me, there is too clear a connection between the way the philly organization has run itself and the lack of development in most of their prospects.
2nd round picks aren't prospects, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. Most of the time they don't even make the league for more than a season.
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I don't think Okafor is doing anything wrong here. He didn't say anything in the ESPN article that i would not expect him to say and he had probably said everything directly to the Sixers already. Now he may be really lazy at practice or there could be some other behind the scenes issue but I don't get that feeling. He seems like a young player who believes he can play and wants a chance.
As for the Celtics, it does not seem like a good fit for him right now. We need players to be reliable or predictable. We can't put a guy out there who is taking his lumps and learning. Just doesn't make sense to me. I would consider signing him as a free agent with a training camp and preseason but not as a mid season add.
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I don't think Okafor is doing anything wrong here. He didn't say anything in the ESPN article that i would not expect him to say and he had probably said everything directly to the Sixers already. Now he may be really lazy at practice or there could be some other behind the scenes issue but I don't get that feeling. He seems like a young player who believes he can play and wants a chance.
As for the Celtics, it does not seem like a good fit for him right now. We need players to be reliable or predictable. We can't put a guy out there who is taking his lumps and learning. Just doesn't make sense to me. I would consider signing him as a free agent with a training camp and preseason but not as a mid season add.
I would say that there are NOT many players that are AVAILABLE that are as consistent at scoring on the block as Okafor. Matter of fact, I canNOT think of ONE.
Smitty77
P.S. Have you noticed that our bench could use a little offensive firepower?:-))
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Okafor makes sense only if he would help us this season win a championship. That is not the case. He is gone after the season, to sign with someone who is willing to pay more than we can, as we would not be getting his Bird rights.
Depends if he were released and signed or if he were traded for.
Re Bird rights? Can you elaborate?
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Okafor makes sense only if he would help us this season win a championship. That is not the case. He is gone after the season, to sign with someone who is willing to pay more than we can, as we would not be getting his Bird rights.
Depends if he were released and signed or if he were traded for.
Re Bird rights? Can you elaborate?
If he were released, we could a) sign him to a two-year minimum deal, or b) sign him for up to the full DPE ($8.4 million) for 1 year.
The two-year minimum is unlikely, but if Ainge were able to sell him on the possibility that the Celtics could help turn around his career, a la Evan Turner, it’s not impossible. Accordingly, we would not be outbid next summer, because he wouldn’t hit free agency. In the case of the DPE, the Celtics would be able to pay him up to 120% of this year’s salary in free agency next year. With the full DPE of $8.4 million, the Celtics could offer him a little over $10 million in year 1 of a deal next summer. It’s highly unlikely any team is going to offer Okafor that next summer, so even though another team could technically outbid the Celtics, practically speaking the Celtics would be able to match or exceed reasonable offers Okafor might obtain next summer in such a situation, if it made sense for them to do so.
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Another month, another Jahlil Okafor thread.
He sucks the life out of your offense. It's the opposite of a team game with him. He's an outstandingly poor defender and has a history of awful rebounding.
Not a desirable sum total for any team, but a particularly bad fit for Boston. It wouldn't be expensive, but there's no good reason to occupy a roster spot with him; it's much better in the big picture to give those precious floor minutes to Theis and Yabusele, who do fit well with Boston.
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Cavs put in Osman, Zizic, and Holland for 5 minutes. Okafor stayed on the bench. Awful what they are doing to him
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Cavs put in Osman, Zizic, and Holland for 5 minutes. Okafor stayed on the bench. Awful what they are doing to him
Wow.
That really is cold.
Wonder what he did over there to deserve the straight black ball.
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Okafor makes sense only if he would help us this season win a championship. That is not the case. He is gone after the season, to sign with someone who is willing to pay more than we can, as we would not be getting his Bird rights.
Depends if he were released and signed or if he were traded for.
Re Bird rights? Can you elaborate?
If he were released, we could a) sign him to a two-year minimum deal, or b) sign him for up to the full DPE ($8.4 million) for 1 year.
The two-year minimum is unlikely, but if Ainge were able to sell him on the possibility that the Celtics could help turn around his career, a la Evan Turner, it’s not impossible. Accordingly, we would not be outbid next summer, because he wouldn’t hit free agency. In the case of the DPE, the Celtics would be able to pay him up to 120% of this year’s salary in free agency next year. With the full DPE of $8.4 million, the Celtics could offer him a little over $10 million in year 1 of a deal next summer. It’s highly unlikely any team is going to offer Okafor that next summer, so even though another team could technically outbid the Celtics, practically speaking the Celtics would be able to match or exceed reasonable offers Okafor might obtain next summer in such a situation, if it made sense for them to do so.
Thank you and TP.
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As I have said before, I can't help but think that both Noel and Okafor have behind the scene problems we don't see. Perhaps bad work ethics. Perhaps bad attitudes. Perhaps egos are too big. Perhaps a sense of entitlement. But for two different franchises to freeze out two different players who just happened to be team mates on a team that openly promoted a losing culture can't be coincidence.
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Cavs put in Osman, Zizic, and Holland for 5 minutes. Okafor stayed on the bench. Awful what they are doing to him
I agree. I don't get what it is about. It has to be an ego thing with bc or brown may have a private issue with him.
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As I have said before, I can't help but think that both Noel and Okafor have behind the scene problems we don't see. Perhaps bad work ethics. Perhaps bad attitudes. Perhaps egos are too big. Perhaps a sense of entitlement. But for two different franchises to freeze out two different players who just happened to be team mates on a team that openly promoted a losing culture can't be coincidence.
Sure it can. Grant was on those teams. So was Covington. McConnell was also. Ish Smith was the PG. They don't seem bothered by the losing.
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As I have said before, I can't help but think that both Noel and Okafor have behind the scene problems we don't see. Perhaps bad work ethics. Perhaps bad attitudes. Perhaps egos are too big. Perhaps a sense of entitlement. But for two different franchises to freeze out two different players who just happened to be team mates on a team that openly promoted a losing culture can't be coincidence.
Sure it can. Grant was on those teams. So was Covington. McConnell was also. Ish Smith was the PG. They don't seem bothered by the losing.
They are not all the same people. What effects one person one way effects some differently. What's the difference between Okafor/Noel and Covington/McConnell/Smith. Okafor and Noel were high draft picks that got tons of special treatment from AAU to high school to college to being picked high. Those others weren't. Completely different upbringings, expectations, and path to the NBA.
My son knows Noel. He says he has turned into a huge punk and has bad people around him. Okafor hasshown to be prettyimmature in the past also. Sorry but I can easily see where Philly didn't provide a good atmosphere for too young self entitled individuals and so they have become behind the scenes problems.
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As I have said before, I can't help but think that both Noel and Okafor have behind the scene problems we don't see. Perhaps bad work ethics. Perhaps bad attitudes. Perhaps egos are too big. Perhaps a sense of entitlement. But for two different franchises to freeze out two different players who just happened to be team mates on a team that openly promoted a losing culture can't be coincidence.
Sure it can. Grant was on those teams. So was Covington. McConnell was also. Ish Smith was the PG. They don't seem bothered by the losing.
They are not all the same people. What effects one person one way effects some differently. What's the difference between Okafor/Noel and Covington/McConnell/Smith. Okafor and Noel were high draft picks that got tons of special treatment from AAU to high school to college to being picked high. Those others weren't. Completely different upbringings, expectations, and path to the NBA.
My son knows Noel. He says he has turned into a huge punk and has bad people around him. Okafor hasshown to be prettyimmature in the past also. Sorry but I can easily see where Philly didn't provide a good atmosphere for too young self entitled individuals and so they have become behind the scenes problems.
I agree with this. This isn't to say the intentional losing hurt everyone hat was part of it, but the twoest high profile guys that were part of it and played the same position would certainly be the most likely to be negatively impacted. Obviously some of these other guys were just happy to have a chance to make it in the league. I almost want to stop saying "the process" cause it really over time hasn't been that much different than what happened in some other players. I still think it was a mistake to not have a few more vets around that wouldn't impact wins and losses but they end up with 4 lottery picks in a row.
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Tonight's game vs. the Pistons made it abundantly clear that we need a player on this roster over 6' 10" tall. Okafor is 6' 11" and 260 and can flat score on the post and could have muscled Drummond a little and given us 6 good hard fouls.
Please Danny, give my my binky and Brad a new toy for Christmas.
Smitty77
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Another month, another Jahlil Okafor thread.
He sucks the life out of your offense. It's the opposite of a team game with him. He's an outstandingly poor defender and has a history of awful rebounding.
Not a desirable sum total for any team, but a particularly bad fit for Boston. It wouldn't be expensive, but there's no good reason to occupy a roster spot with him; it's much better in the big picture to give those precious floor minutes to Theis and Yabusele, who do fit well with Boston.
I did NOT know that our second unit had life to be sucked out. I just thought our second unit sucked on offense, especially interior scoring!!!!
Smitty77
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Everyone needs to stop saying this kid is a team killer. He is a young 22 year big man with talent. Toss a second salary filler at them and have brad coach him up. Sign a scorer with the disable money and go to battle! Make it to the finals and see what happens! Inn!
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Jayson Tatum Tweeted out last night in support of Okafor responding to Devin Booker's "#FreeJah" Tweet with "#Facts." He has at least the 5th NBA player to support Okafor like this in the past week or so (a bunch of warriors did something last week) following on the heels of a similar sentiment from IT. This is getting really ugly for the 76ers and their reputation around the league.
https://twitter.com/jaytatum0/status/935210183327997960
https://deadspin.com/warriors-endorse-jahlil-okafors-quest-for-freedom-from-1820612462
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Another month, another Jahlil Okafor thread.
He sucks the life out of your offense. It's the opposite of a team game with him. He's an outstandingly poor defender and has a history of awful rebounding.
Not a desirable sum total for any team, but a particularly bad fit for Boston. It wouldn't be expensive, but there's no good reason to occupy a roster spot with him; it's much better in the big picture to give those precious floor minutes to Theis and Yabusele, who do fit well with Boston.
I did NOT know that our second unit had life to be sucked out. I just thought our second unit sucked on offense, especially interior scoring!!!!
Smitty77
Given Brad's wacky rotations, it's hard to pinpoint the "second unit": let's just call them "bench guys". But I feel like Theis is getting better (learning to involve himself in the offense with confidence and anticipation) every game. His roll game is pretty good already, and his weird Euro-cuts sometimes produce nice results.
Same with Semi. His defence is utterly brilliant already, but he seems to be getting a little more creative with his offensive decision-making. I'd be willing to ride the guys we have for this year, of course if something pops up at the deadline you consider making a move. Despite my natural bias of not liking Okafor's game at all, I would like to see the second unit continue to develop as is, and think that adding a guy in Okafor's situation right now would be counter-productive.
Baynes is Baynes, he is always going to be Baynes. He might be the candidate to get moved. But Okafor's rebounding per 36 is about the same as Baynes. He shoots a slightly lower % than Baynes. He will draw more defensive collapses than Baynes because of his ability to really put it on the floor, but really that is about the only clear advantage. Not to mention that it is not a good look to move a FA, and Baynes sets FAR better screens.
Good luck with your career Jah. Good luck with it in Atlanta.
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He was held out of Boston for individual training getting him ready for whatever happens at trade deadline
This is out of concern and trying to get Okafor ready to pursue his career said Brett Brown
He truly was a defensive hazard in Philly.
BUT he did lose weight and all those old rumors of Ainge pursuing him over the years.
Would Philly dare trade with Danny?
Is it even worth it?
Will Philly waive him?
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I may get yelled at here, but I'm not ruling him out. CBS has shown the ability to turn around "hopeless" players and get them to play defense. He's still young and bad habits aren't irreversible.
If the price is Terry Rozier, forget it. If the price is a couple of seconds and some G-League baggage, color me intrigued.
Mike
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Guess this kid was told to stay home and train for your career.
I was wondering if Chicago would trade Portis for him if Phili would send them a second rounder. I think that is a win win.
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This just makes Philly look bad IMO. Invest in the guys future, waive him, buy him out, trade him... the one thing you should not do is nothing. Makes Philly look spiteful and stupid. They devalued an asset.
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This just makes Philly look bad IMO. Invest in the guys future, waive him, buy him out, trade him... the one thing you should not do is nothing. Makes Philly look spiteful and stupid. They devalued an asset.
#Trusttheprocess :laugh:
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This just makes Philly look bad IMO. Invest in the guys future, waive him, buy him out, trade him... the one thing you should not do is nothing. Makes Philly look spiteful and stupid. They devalued an asset.
#Trusttheprocess :laugh:
remember they got rid of Hinkie because he was "harming" them.
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I may get yelled at here, but I'm not ruling him out. CBS has shown the ability to turn around "hopeless" players and get them to play defense. He's still young and bad habits aren't irreversible.
If the price is Terry Rozier, forget it. If the price is a couple of seconds and some G-League baggage, color me intrigued.
Mike
I might be wrong but I don't think we have many 2nd rounder left. Like 1 in the next 3 years. I'd rather keep it
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I may get yelled at here, but I'm not ruling him out. CBS has shown the ability to turn around "hopeless" players and get them to play defense. He's still young and bad habits aren't irreversible.
If the price is Terry Rozier, forget it. If the price is a couple of seconds and some G-League baggage, color me intrigued.
Mike
I might be wrong but I don't think we have many 2nd rounder left. Like 1 in the next 3 years. I'd rather keep it
you can always pick up a 2nd rounder for cash. No reason not to make a trade to keep one of them. Now if you just don't like Okafor that is fine, but there is no way you don't acquire him solely because it would be your last 2nd rounder.
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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-sixers-nearing-deal-send-214236005.html
Phili giving up a second as well. Booker is a player that will help Phili win now. Wish we could have gotten a second and him for the end of our bench....
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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-sixers-nearing-deal-send-214236005.html
Phili giving up a second as well. Booker is a player that will help Phili win now. Wish we could have gotten a second and him for the end of our bench....
That's cool for the Nets - maybe they can sell their fans on recouping 2 of the lottery picks they sent to the Cs ;)
TP for the update.
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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-sixers-nearing-deal-send-214236005.html
Phili giving up a second as well. Booker is a player that will help Phili win now. Wish we could have gotten a second and him for the end of our bench....
I remember some posters screaming about how we'd have to give up 1 or 2 Brooklyn picks to get Okafor and people wanted Stauskas over Smart. so often the best trades are the ones that aren't made
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Aww man this is the best case scenario.. With this change in Scenery Okafor can go on to be a lockdown defensive, high level Rebounding, super low post Stud in Brooklyn, helping them win many more games and making that pick even worse..
Thank you baby Jezuz!!!
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https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-sixers-nearing-deal-send-214236005.html
Phili giving up a second as well. Booker is a player that will help Phili win now. Wish we could have gotten a second and him for the end of our bench....
I remember some posters screaming about how we'd have to give up 1 or 2 Brooklyn picks to get Okafor and people wanted Stauskas over Smart. so often the best trades are the ones that aren't made
hmmmmm......Stauskas over Smart....hmmmmm