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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: j804 on November 20, 2017, 09:25:51 PM

Title: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: j804 on November 20, 2017, 09:25:51 PM
This is so annoying he has it going. He’s killing it and Brad sits him and sits him and sits him. I think this might be the first night of back to back but it isn’t just happening this game he does it a lot.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: gouki88 on November 20, 2017, 09:31:47 PM
I agree, it's really annoying. He also leaves garbage lineups in for way too long
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on November 20, 2017, 09:33:29 PM
Because he's a fool sometimes.  Ugh.   >:(
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Jamilmac99 on November 20, 2017, 09:34:38 PM
Highly annoying, and not just Kyrie. Starters should be entering at no less than 8 minutes in my opinion. Especially players like Kyrie and Brown.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: RJ87 on November 20, 2017, 09:37:27 PM
I'm not gonna lie - the weird rotations are starting to get annoying. I just don't know if you can afford to have lineups without 2 of Irving, Horford, Brown, Morris, and Tatum for long stretches... Heck, I'd even take one those guys with Larkin because he can at least get you into proper offensive sets.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Jamilmac99 on November 20, 2017, 09:51:49 PM
Remember when Bird would play 53 minutes including OT.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: jdz101 on November 21, 2017, 07:40:13 AM
This is so annoying he has it going. He’s killing it and Brad sits him and sits him and sits him. I think this might be the first night of back to back but it isn’t just happening this game he does it a lot.
Might be a directive from the new sports science guys or at least some guidance to keep minutes at a certain level. None of the guys are above 33 minutes average. That's low. They're all at a fairly uniform level too.

I hate the move for starting Morris over baynes more. It's killed baynes' mojo as he can't create his own offense off the bench. Morris in with the starters makes us worse defensively too, and he'd help our bench scoring.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Eja117 on November 21, 2017, 07:48:31 AM
Remember when Bird would play 53 minutes including OT.
Yeah, and then he got back problems and was done
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: TheSundanceKid on November 21, 2017, 07:56:26 AM
Remember when Bird would play 53 minutes including OT.
Yeah, and then he got back problems and was done
Exactly. It's not a badge of honour to play every minute. Keeping minutes low throughout the regular season is a great way to help your team in the playoffs. We will have a Kyrie Irving who is fresher than he has ever been, that will be scary.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Green-18 on November 21, 2017, 08:30:05 AM
I believe Brad is limiting Kyrie's minutes for multiple reasons.  The first is that he sees huge value in a well rested Irving for the 4th quarter.  It's hard to argue with the results.  Kyrie has been insane in the closing minutes of games.  Durability issues were also a concern with Kyrie in Cleveland.

The second reason is the long term development of our team.  The bench looks ugly right now but Brad is looking at the bigger picture here.  The limitation of Kyrie's minutes is providing opportunities for the rest of the team.  It also highlights some of the major weaknesses we have offensively.  Brad has always experimented with lineups early in the season in order to learn more about his team.  There's no better way to learn about a group than by pushing them in real game situations.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: KGBirdBias on November 21, 2017, 08:40:56 AM
I'm trying to not criticize Stevens because there is a method to his madness.

I think he wants Kyrie fresh at the end of games.

I'm trying to figure out how we can get Smart not to shoot so much. He's DJ...he will hit them when it counts but boy last night I was losing it.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: ETNCeltics on November 21, 2017, 08:48:34 AM
I'm trying to not criticize Stevens because there is a method to his madness.

I think he wants Kyrie fresh at the end of games.

I'm trying to figure out how we can get Smart not to shoot so much. He's DJ...he will hit them when it counts but boy last night I was losing it.

I don't think he's just thinking about the end of games, he's thinking about May and June and trying to keep those minutes low.

Yeah, DJ he ain't. DJ was $$$ on the open 18 footer. Marcus is the worst shooting guard in the league.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: BitterJim on November 21, 2017, 08:49:58 AM
This is so annoying he has it going. He’s killing it and Brad sits him and sits him and sits him. I think this might be the first night of back to back but it isn’t just happening this game he does it a lot.
Might be a directive from the new sports science guys or at least some guidance to keep minutes at a certain level. None of the guys are above 33 minutes average. That's low. They're all at a fairly uniform level too.

I hate the move for starting Morris over baynes more. It's killed baynes' mojo as he can't create his own offense off the bench. Morris in with the starters makes us worse defensively too, and he'd help our bench scoring.

I doubt it.  Brad has always kept people's minutes low.  The most MPG anyone has ever averaged under him is 34.2 by Jeff Green in Brad's first season.  Even IT only played 33.8 MPG last year (leading the team)
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on November 21, 2017, 08:50:26 AM
I'm trying to not criticize Stevens because there is a method to his madness.

I think he wants Kyrie fresh at the end of games.

I'm trying to figure out how we can get Smart not to shoot so much. He's DJ...he will hit them when it counts but boy last night I was losing it.

He ain't no DJ.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: __ramonezy__ on November 21, 2017, 08:54:13 AM
As several have said before, it's a long season and we have to ensure we monitor players from the inception to give them the best chance of staying healthy. Also if you look at Kyrie's efficiency numbers its hard to argue against how he's being handled.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Green-18 on November 21, 2017, 08:55:14 AM
I'm trying to not criticize Stevens because there is a method to his madness.

I think he wants Kyrie fresh at the end of games.

I'm trying to figure out how we can get Smart not to shoot so much. He's DJ...he will hit them when it counts but boy last night I was losing it.

I think the real solution to limiting Marcus' shots is to improve the assertiveness of the rest of the bench.  Turnovers and poor shots are still a frequent result even when Marcus isn't the one who takes the shot.  When Horford and Kyrie are out of the game we lose our sense of purpose.  Morris is capable of providing a spark but most of it is done out of isolation when he is with the bench, which you can't rely on every night.  There really isn't an easy answer to this.  Marcus is the only bench player that can run all of our sets but he isn't a threat to shoot.  Larkin has been solid in spurts but you would get diminishing returns if he played more minutes.

Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: hwangjini_1 on November 21, 2017, 09:17:25 AM
I agree, it's really annoying. He also leaves garbage lineups in for way too long
Yeah, and it kills our win/lose record too! ::)
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: hwangjini_1 on November 21, 2017, 09:18:47 AM
Remember when Bird would play 53 minutes including OT.
And, was this before or after he back gave out from so many Minutes?
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 21, 2017, 09:29:29 AM
 ::)

Two thoughts on this:

1. Our young guys need reps with the ball in their hands. Its November, not April. If they are going to develop, it will be because they get more second quarter reps on a Monday in November.
2. We have been able to win late in games precisely because Al and Kyrie are rested, and Brown and Tatum have young legs. We might improve our second quarter if we put our top guys in sooner, but the end score would be impacted. Its like a race. The Celtics pace themselves and run their own speed, knowing that other teams don't have the depth of talent or the energy in their top-end talent to keep up with them.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: furball on November 21, 2017, 09:42:26 AM
First off, Larry Bird hurt his back paving his mother's drive way during the off season.  His minutes weren't the problem.  Also, the way he played, all the diving fornloose balls and what not, did not help the situation. 

Second, limiting guys minutes is why they have been so good in the 4th quarter these past few years.  Guys are fresh.  Also, he needs to develop the bench and find out who can help the team and what combos work. 
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Fafnir on November 21, 2017, 09:54:45 AM
This is so annoying he has it going. He’s killing it and Brad sits him and sits him and sits him. I think this might be the first night of back to back but it isn’t just happening this game he does it a lot.
He left him in the whole first quarter because Kyrie was on fire, that's a departure from the rotation of the same kind you are asking for.

Its pretty clear that the C's are committed to keeping their players at around 32 MPG and from a long view perspective I think that's a good approach. This is a young team that expects to be playing deep into the playoffs, keep guys healthy/fresh.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Fafnir on November 21, 2017, 09:56:51 AM
First off, Larry Bird hurt his back paving his mother's drive way during the off season.  His minutes weren't the problem.  Also, the way he played, all the diving fornloose balls and what not, did not help the situation. 

Second, limiting guys minutes is why they have been so good in the 4th quarter these past few years.  Guys are fresh.  Also, he needs to develop the bench and find out who can help the team and what combos work.
Cumulative wear and tear absolutely contribute to accute injuries. The research on this is pretty clear. Its also become clear that when you're exhausted injury chance also goes up.

Two excellent reasons to keep the minutes in the mid 30s on your best players.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: celticslove on November 21, 2017, 10:03:06 AM
Should be the opposite, we should be praising Brad for managing minutes while still getting wins
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: fairweatherfan on November 21, 2017, 10:13:16 AM
It's so that he's fresh for the clutch minutes, and long-term for the playoffs. But the last couple games are also because Brad, like a lot of coaches, tries to steal minutes for the deep rotation guys against crappy opponents.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Androslav on November 21, 2017, 10:35:38 AM
Because of this:
http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94481.msg2421720#new
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Donoghus on November 21, 2017, 10:35:40 AM
Because its still only November. 

Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on November 21, 2017, 10:51:56 AM
It hasn't affected us so far, so I don't mind it. If Kyrie comes in into the 4th quarter well rested, it's all the better. Let's also remember that Irving has injury history too, so it's best to not run him to the ground, especially this early.

But with that said, I think this is whey we, atleast for this season, could use another guy that can score coming off the bench. While it has not affected us so far, it's also worth adding to our strength and be able to keep doing this without having any setbacks in the next coming games.

He's averaging 31 minutes per game. If we can sustain the winning and keep doing this after the 82 games, he's going to be relatively fresh for the Playoffs.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: number_n9ne on November 21, 2017, 10:55:52 AM
I was getting worried there would be nothing to overreact to during this 16 game win streak, 5th longest in Celtics history. Break out the pitchforks boys, it's time to take Stevens down for his lineups that keep winning games!

#downwithbrad #fireainge #winninglineups #realitybased
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Granath on November 21, 2017, 11:08:01 AM
*sigh*

Kyrie is playing 31.5 minutes a game. That's inclusive of one game where he played fewer than two minutes. Take out that game and Kyrie is playing 33.5 minutes a game which is on par with IT's 33.8 last year. It's not like he's sitting on the bench for an excessive amount of time.

It's also important to remember that Kyrie has missed 22+ games in a season 3 times in his career - 50% of his seasons he played in fewer than 60 games. So keeping the guy fairly rested isn't a bad thing.

The real issue is the lack of consistent scoring from the backcourt when Kyrie (and Brown) are sitting. Rozier and Smart are having a difficult time hitting the side of a barn. Opponents know this and can sag on guys like Tatum (who is still learning the NBA game) and Morris to prevent them from scoring. That's why the whole offense bogs down and makes it more noticeable when those guys are sitting.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: GreenShooter on November 21, 2017, 11:28:38 AM
I think with so much emphasis on defense, Brad sits the starters longer if he sees them giving all that effort. It'd be ok if they just ran up and down the court trading baskets but playing defense consistently takes a lot out of you. I don't totally disagree with him playing guys shorter minutes. It's not like he's only playing Kyrie and other starters 35 minutes per game (edit: this sentence was sarcasm). It's a long season and hopefully even longer for us.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: wdleehi on November 21, 2017, 11:37:40 AM
Regular season minutes being kept low for key players and the team is still winning?



Isn't that perfect?   
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Diggles on November 21, 2017, 11:57:15 AM
What ever Brad has been doing is = W's.    From what I have heard is he is trying to get the bench out of a slump so come playoff time they can extend our leads and have the starters fresh for the playoffs.   

Seems to be working except the bench can't seem to score.   
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: droopdog7 on November 21, 2017, 12:14:53 PM
This is so annoying he has it going. He’s killing it and Brad sits him and sits him and sits him. I think this might be the first night of back to back but it isn’t just happening this game he does it a lot.
Because every game in no the ****' championship.  I'm glad he doesn't micro-manage every game like it's his last.  Carve our a system and stick to it.  Guys will appreciate it.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: playdream on November 21, 2017, 01:05:27 PM
Wow can't tell if those "annoyed" is trolling or not
BS is doing the exact right things to:
keep starters fresh and train the bench
and start Morris over Baynes in this game is definitely a good move
and Smart can shoot as much as BS want him to shoot, and it's for the team's best interest
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 21, 2017, 01:15:28 PM
so Kyrie does not score 60 and demoralize the rest of the NBA
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: mrb617 on November 21, 2017, 02:00:52 PM
I still don't get how anyone second guesses CBS or DA (or BB for that matter). They have proven time and time again to be the one of if not THE best coach/executive in the league. They know more, and know better than YOU. Please enjoy having then on OUR side.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: nickagneta on November 21, 2017, 02:13:52 PM
I have no problem with Brad's rotation of Kyrie last night and on most nights. But his rotation of Brown in the wnd half last night was awful and his constant need to put in a total non-starter team for long stretches baffles me.

Some say he is trying to develop the youth. Which ones? Smart and Rozier, who have the highest usage on those teams are vets now. Their shooting has been awful fron day one rookie year. What is Brad developing in those guys? Semi barely touches the ball on those teams? How is that developing him? Nader is not an NBA player, why even give him minutes?

Simple solution to the 2nd team woes is change the rotation of the starters and leave a couple starters in at all times. But he doesn't. This is my biggest pet peeve with Brad's coaching.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: hpantazo on November 21, 2017, 02:22:49 PM
We’re 16-2 and Kyrie has an unreal +\- and efficiency numbers in the clutch, so I think whatever Brad is doing with his management of Kyrie’s playing time is working
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: ederson on November 21, 2017, 02:25:23 PM
Wow can't tell if those "annoyed" is trolling or not
BS is doing the exact right things to:
keep starters fresh and train the bench
and start Morris over Baynes in this game is definitely a good move
and Smart can shoot as much as BS want him to shoot, and it's for the team's best interest

Isn't it amazing? People are annoyed because of the strategy that lead to a 16-2 record. Considering the number of new faces and GH's injury this is almost a miracle ... But still not enough ... Unbelievable
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: RodyTur10 on November 21, 2017, 02:34:49 PM
I have no problem with Brad's rotation of Kyrie last night and on most nights. But his rotation of Brown in the wnd half last night was awful and his constant need to put in a total non-starter team for long stretches baffles me.

Some say he is trying to develop the youth. Which ones? Smart and Rozier, who have the highest usage on those teams are vets now. Their shooting has been awful fron day one rookie year. What is Brad developing in those guys? Semi barely touches the ball on those teams? How is that developing him? Nader is not an NBA player, why even give him minutes?

Simple solution to the 2nd team woes is change the rotation of the starters and leave a couple starters in at all times. But he doesn't. This is my biggest pet peeve with Brad's coaching.

I think he's just trying to develop the bench and look for guys to contribute. That the production from the bench is severely lacking is not a sign that Stevens plays the wrong (combination of) players, but an indication that we need to bring 1 or 2 veterans to the team who can score when the starters sit. Like you said Nader is not an NBA player (I said pre-season that I hoped to see consistent minutes for Nader, I was wrong  :-[ ) and we have an empty roster spot.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: spikelovetheCelts on November 21, 2017, 03:28:46 PM
I think giving Larkin Semi and Theis minutes is important. We need Rozier to score better. I a perfect world Smart could shoot. Baynes should also get fed some more. But I will take whatever is working. I just hope it works in May, too.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: jdz101 on November 21, 2017, 04:38:46 PM
I was getting worried there would be nothing to overreact to during this 16 game win streak, 5th longest in Celtics history. Break out the pitchforks boys, it's time to take Stevens down for his lineups that keep winning games!

#downwithbrad #fireainge #winninglineups #realitybased

Well every 4 man combo with Morris in it that doesn't have smart in it is a net negative so far. And every lineup with baynes and three starters is pretty much all world defensively with huge net positives and created largely to this win streak.

The time where we started limping over the line instead of winning games convincingly was when we started Morris over baynes.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Snakehead on November 21, 2017, 05:07:14 PM
I was getting worried there would be nothing to overreact to during this 16 game win streak, 5th longest in Celtics history. Break out the pitchforks boys, it's time to take Stevens down for his lineups that keep winning games!

#downwithbrad #fireainge #winninglineups #realitybased

Well every 4 man combo with Morris in it that doesn't have smart in it is a net negative so far. And every lineup with baynes and three starters is pretty much all world defensively with huge net positives and created largely to this win streak.

The time where we started limping over the line instead of winning games convincingly was when we started Morris over baynes.

I am really in favor of it.  I also like starting big and going small against their bench.

Baynes defensive numbers are really great.

I think Morris' game works well there.  With the starters, he is taking possessions totally looking for his shot which is more of a waste there, vs with the bench when it's needed more and those are better shots.

If Hayward was playing that would have been his role anyways.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Vermont Green on November 21, 2017, 05:09:52 PM
He is averaging 31.5 mpg; below his career average of 34 mpg.  Is the question about the total number of minutes or the way he distributes them with long breaks between his minutes?

I suspect the total minutes will creep up but the distribution of the minutes seems to be working pretty well so who am I to judge?
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Snakehead on November 21, 2017, 05:13:07 PM
Nader is not an NBA player, why even give him minutes?


Brad gets a lot of credit by trusting his players and putting them in opportunities to succeed.  I think Stevens has been trying to put Nader in at times when he has needed scoring.  However, it really hasn't been there.  If he keeps playing him that is a problem but I think that is not something to bash Stevens for.  Nader did light up the D-league so it's not as if there is nothing to make you think he can't score.  I heard Jeff Van Gundy say he thought Nader was for sure an NBA rotation guy at the start of the season (he coached him and saw him in the D-league).

For me last night I was just thinking I prefer Semi.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: Darío SpanishFan on November 21, 2017, 05:39:07 PM
Because he needs Kyrie to be healthy for 95 games in a seven month span. Also, to assess the rest of the roster.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on November 21, 2017, 07:47:32 PM
Wrong thread.  Assalamualaikum.
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: cman88 on November 21, 2017, 08:46:43 PM
If I had one complaint it would be that Brad needs to get better at staggering Kyries minutes. There is no way he should play the Whole first quarter, and then come in with 4 minutes left in the half

maybe play him 6-8 minutes in the first and 6-8 in the 2nd?
Title: Re: Why does Brad sit Kyrie for soooo long?
Post by: jbp126 on November 21, 2017, 09:03:18 PM
If I had one complaint it would be that Brad needs to get better at staggering Kyries minutes. There is no way he should play the Whole first quarter, and then come in with 4 minutes left in the half

maybe play him 6-8 minutes in the first and 6-8 in the 2nd?

I agree. Stevens should never be using a three guard lineup of Larkin/Rozier/Smart especially in the fourth.