CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: seancally on November 17, 2017, 09:38:19 AM
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https://www.theringer.com/nba/2017/11/16/16668790/ringer-nba-show-live-warriors-celtics
Some good discussion, some banter, some fun - not always a huge fan of The Ringer, but I am a huge fan of anyone talking about the Celtics on a national stage. Just something to listen to.
Noteworthy - none of these three have a Celtics bias and are in fact probably pretty anti-C's, but have a lot of good things to say about our boys.
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Didn't love when they said, " I think we overrate coaching in the NBA."
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Didn't love when they said, " I think we overrate coaching in the NBA."
Um, we do.
Remember when Doc Rivers was a laughing stock, and then the Celtics landed KG and Ray Allen and then suddenly everyone thought Doc was an outstanding coach? And then Doc left the C's, and now everyone thinks he's an idiot again.
Yes, we overrate coaching.
Talent is what wins.
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Didn't love when they said, " I think we overrate coaching in the NBA."
I didn't listen but that's a lazy comment. It's true that coaching doesn't matter in most match ups throughout the league. The reason why is because coaches like Pop and Stevens don't come along very often. The landscape of the NBA would be very different if there were 8-10 elite coaches.
Even Steve Kerr deserves a lot of credit for the first Warriors title win. Mark Jackson's system was mostly an isolation offense and the Warriors ranked last in passes per game. Kerr turned them into the best passing team by far in his first season.
OKC is perfect example of why coaching matters. They are still stuck with a boring isolation offense. I guarantee that Pop, Stevens, or Kerr could maximize the potential of that group. Instead they will struggle to win 50 games and get bounced in the first or second round of the playoffs.
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Didn't love when they said, " I think we overrate coaching in the NBA."
Um, we do.
Remember when Doc Rivers was a laughing stock, and then the Celtics landed KG and Ray Allen and then suddenly everyone thought Doc was an outstanding coach? And then Doc left the C's, and now everyone thinks he's an idiot again.
Yes, we overrate coaching.
Talent is what wins.
It goes deeper than that. For instance, swap CBS and Lue. Would that affect our record? The Cavs?
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Didn't love when they said, " I think we overrate coaching in the NBA."
Um, we do.
Remember when Doc Rivers was a laughing stock, and then the Celtics landed KG and Ray Allen and then suddenly everyone thought Doc was an outstanding coach? And then Doc left the C's, and now everyone thinks he's an idiot again.
Yes, we overrate coaching.
Talent is what wins.
It goes deeper than that. For instance, swap CBS and Lue. Would that affect our record? The Cavs?
The Cavs won a title two years ago with Lue, a guy who had absolutely no experience as a head coach. Why? Because the Cavs had talent.
Coaching has a bit of an impact, but in the end, talent is what wins out.
Just take the OKC/SA series from 2016. Gregg Popovich vs. Billy Donovan. If coaching mattered THAT much, the Spurs would have won that series going away.
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Didn't love when they said, " I think we overrate coaching in the NBA."
Um, we do.
Remember when Doc Rivers was a laughing stock, and then the Celtics landed KG and Ray Allen and then suddenly everyone thought Doc was an outstanding coach? And then Doc left the C's, and now everyone thinks he's an idiot again.
Yes, we overrate coaching.
Talent is what wins.
It goes deeper than that. For instance, swap CBS and Lue. Would that affect our record? The Cavs?
The Cavs won a title two years ago with Lue, a guy who had absolutely no experience as a head coach. Why? Because the Cavs had talent.
Coaching has a bit of an impact, but in the end, talent is what wins out.
Just take the OKC/SA series from 2016. Gregg Popovich vs. Billy Donovan. If coaching mattered THAT much, the Spurs would have won that series going away.
Right, but nearly the same Cavs team lost to Steve Kerr-led GSW without KD, so coaching does count, not just "a bit".
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Didn't love when they said, " I think we overrate coaching in the NBA."
Um, we do.
Remember when Doc Rivers was a laughing stock, and then the Celtics landed KG and Ray Allen and then suddenly everyone thought Doc was an outstanding coach? And then Doc left the C's, and now everyone thinks he's an idiot again.
Yes, we overrate coaching.
Talent is what wins.
It goes deeper than that. For instance, swap CBS and Lue. Would that affect our record? The Cavs?
The Cavs won a title two years ago with Lue, a guy who had absolutely no experience as a head coach. Why? Because the Cavs had talent.
Coaching has a bit of an impact, but in the end, talent is what wins out.
Just take the OKC/SA series from 2016. Gregg Popovich vs. Billy Donovan. If coaching mattered THAT much, the Spurs would have won that series going away.
You are absolutely correct in regards to talent winning out in most cases. However this isn't a black and white argument. The 2014 San Antonio Spurs didn't have the same high end talent as the Heat. They won that series with some of the best teamwork and ball movement you will ever see. Their regular season leading scorer was Tony Parker with 16.7 PPG. He was also the playoff leader with just over 17 PPG. Kawhi had some breakout games in the Finals but I think it's fair to credit a lot of his devlopment to Pop. Do you think Billy Donovan could have gotten the same results with that group? What are your thoughts on the Mavs title win over the Miami Heat? Dirk went absolutely nuts in that series but Miami's talent was far superior.
A lot of the Spurs title teams have beaten competition with better talent. They have also lost to many of these teams along the way. The losses don't change the fact that Popovich has them in the title picture every single year.
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Didn't love when they said, " I think we overrate coaching in the NBA."
Um, we do.
Remember when Doc Rivers was a laughing stock, and then the Celtics landed KG and Ray Allen and then suddenly everyone thought Doc was an outstanding coach? And then Doc left the C's, and now everyone thinks he's an idiot again.
Yes, we overrate coaching.
Talent is what wins.
I don't know. Myself? I would trade any one player on our team before I would trade Brad Stevens. While the majority of coaches are of similar basic quality, top level coaches are few and far between. The ability of Stevens to get his players to buy into an unselfish philosophy has been incredible. We aren't better than the Warriors and you better believe they wanted to get that win last night, but we were somehow able to shut them down when it mattered the most.
That isn't just talent winning - that is something else.
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I mentioned this earlier but Steve Kerr is one of the best recent examples of how much a coach can matter. The Mark Jackson Warriors were one of the worst passing teams during his tenure. They regularly ranked last in passes per game and most of their offense was generated from the pure skills of the Splash Brothers. Kerr's first order of business was to get the Warriors to buy into a motion offense. The results weren't great to start the season but the rest was history once they figured things out. The Warriors would never have gotten over the hump without the addition of Kerr. The Mark Jackson edition of Golden State would have been a perennial 50 win 2nd round playoff team.
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You can't make roasted duck out of duck patte.
And taking Lou as an example that proves coaching isn't as relevant. It is too simplified.
Lue's title was more of a LeBrons coaching title. As he was controling everything. Blatt was standing on his way - was removed.
Think of it as Russels player-coach titles. As long Bill or LBJ are playing they are good enough coaches.
Brad gives us 5/6 wins each year, gathers talent - that is big.
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Didn't love when they said, " I think we overrate coaching in the NBA."
Um, we do.
Remember when Doc Rivers was a laughing stock, and then the Celtics landed KG and Ray Allen and then suddenly everyone thought Doc was an outstanding coach? And then Doc left the C's, and now everyone thinks he's an idiot again.
Yes, we overrate coaching.
Talent is what wins.
Doc Rivers was and is an outstanding coach. He's an idiot GM though.
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The way I see it is there are 5 tiers of players:
Superstar: Kyrie
Star: Horford
Above average: jaylen brown
Average: Smart
Below average: Baynes
(For example -didn't put much thought into the players in the list.. not the point)
Great coaching can elevate players 1 tier. It's like an aura effect in gaming terms.
Brad Stevens made Amir Johnson (a below average player) look average (not a bad thing in th NbA).
Under Brown, he looks below average again.
It's part of how we keep winning trades. Look at Jae crowder for example. People were going on about how it will hurt so bad to lose him. He was below average when we got him and he's below average again now.
You don't need great coaching to win if the roster is already stacked. But if you put Lue over here you'll see a huge difference.
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Didn't love when they said, " I think we overrate coaching in the NBA."
Um, we do.
Remember when Doc Rivers was a laughing stock, and then the Celtics landed KG and Ray Allen and then suddenly everyone thought Doc was an outstanding coach? And then Doc left the C's, and now everyone thinks he's an idiot again.
Yes, we overrate coaching.
Talent is what wins.
not everyone suddenly thought Doc was an outstanding coach. there are a number of people who saw Doc as a better manager of egos than as an actual coach.
KC Jones winning with the C's in the mid-80's would be a similar example of a coach that is better at handling the personal side of players than the X's and O's.
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Professional basketball is getting more complex in terms of defensive and offensive schemes. While it never will approach the level of complexity as football, it is a for more coach-dependent sport than it was even ten years ago. Coaching is becoming an increasingly important asset for success.
You still need talented players to win, but talent alone is never enough anymore.
It is hard to over-rate the job that Stevens has done with this team so far this season.
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The fuel that is driving the Celtics run happens in practice. Training is where the teamwork that makes this group so difficult to beat develops. Talent matters a heap but coaching can be the difference on game day and in preparation. On the original topic, it is good to see commentators taking the team more seriously.