CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Tr1boy on November 17, 2017, 07:06:35 AM
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What I remember of GH is that , he is a solid defender. But with a lack of high end quickness/explosivess and short wingspan.... He has his limitations
KD last season in the playoffs was shooting over him, getting past him etc... I mean GH put on a solid effort..but still
So is this unit of Horford, Morris, Brown, Tatum, Irving/Smart
The best defensive unit for the Celts?
No knock on GH while he is down...just from a tactical perspective
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The net gain from having a player GH's caliber on the floor vs., say, Morris, is huge. He provides far more offensively than anything they'd lose defensively.
Durant didn't go off on Hayward and Utah. He had one big game and was held in check otherwise. GH and his teammates did a far better job on Durant in that series than CLE and Lebron did in the finals, when he went for 35 a game.
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As good as Kyrie has been on both ends of the floor, I don't think I would include him in the Celtics' best defensive line-up. Such line-up would have to include Horford-Brown-Smart and then depending on a match-up it would consist of two of Morris/Baynes/Tatum/Rozier. And by the time Hayward returns I believe Tatum might already be a better defender for bigger wing players. Right now he still sometimes gets the rotations wrong (first KD bucket of the cut last night) or gets beaten on the drive (D.Green last night), but he's so long and has got active hands. However, I believe we would benefit incredibly from putting Gordon in a bench unit to help Marcus run the offense while Kyrie sits. Man, it's so bittersweet to watch this team be on such a great run, but then realize we've got one star sidelined for a year.
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i think stevens will be jumping around if he has irving brown hayward tatum and horford as staring 5
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I think that yes, you may lose a little on defense but you gain much more on offense. Maybe the biggest benefit would be that you could split Hayward and Irving sometimes to make sure the offense doesn't fall apart when Irving is resting. Or, put Tatum on the bench (would hate to see this happen considering how well he's been with the starters) and let him develop more as the focal point. Even though he will struggle at first, he's going to need that experience eventually.
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It is easier to set up your defense off of made baskets. So even if Hayward is a little less good on defense (and remember, the Jazz had the #3 defense last year with Hayward playing the second-most minutes on the team), the overall effect on defense would likely be negligible, as there would be fewer transition opportunities.
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I think that yes, you may lose a little on defense but you gain much more on offense. Maybe the biggest benefit would be that you could split Hayward and Irving sometimes to make sure the offense doesn't fall apart when Irving is resting. Or, put Tatum on the bench (would hate to see this happen considering how well he's been with the starters) and let him develop more as the focal point. Even though he will struggle at first, he's going to need that experience eventually.
Tatum is = throw to the Wolves , right now. No mercy
(http://www.tboake.com/film_11/300/300-1_8_resize.jpg)
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Our transition offense was atrocious last night because we couldnt make shots...if GH was around we will sort of have no issues with those 4 and half minutes without a made fieldgoal and this was where GS where making their run.
We make shots and its easier to set up our D.
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Our defense would not suffer very much at all and our offense would be significantly better. Win win.
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What I remember of GH is that , he is a solid defender. But with a lack of high end quickness/explosivess and short wingspan.... He has his limitations
KD last season in the playoffs was shooting over him, getting past him etc... I mean GH put on a solid effort..but still
So is this unit of Horford, Morris, Brown, Tatum, Irving/Smart
The best defensive unit for the Celts?
No knock on GH while he is down...just from a tactical perspective
Hayward has excellent lateral quickness, which is why he was such a highly regarded tennis player. He also good leaping ability, but most importantly he also has a great team defender. The guy is slawsys in the right place defensively.
Our best 5 defense unit would be-
Morris
Hayward
Horford
Smart
Brown
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What I remember of GH is that , he is a solid defender. But with a lack of high end quickness/explosivess and short wingspan.... He has his limitations
KD last season in the playoffs was shooting over him, getting past him etc... I mean GH put on a solid effort..but still
So is this unit of Horford, Morris, Brown, Tatum, Irving/Smart
The best defensive unit for the Celts?
No knock on GH while he is down...just from a tactical perspective
It's a good question. I honestly think we would be roughly the same due to our intensity level and effort. The added depth would also make the bench more consistent.
You could argue that Hayward's lack of length could affect our rebounding rate with the starters but I don't think it would work out that way. Tatum would still be in the starting lineup most nights unless Brad wanted the size of Baynes for a particular match up. Right now Morris is in the starting spot and his measurable are similar to Hayward. The analytics show that Baynes is the common denominator in all of our best defensive lineups. We have been historically great in his 19 MPG. No reason to think that this would change with Hayward healthy.
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Hayward is a good defender, the way the game is played now. For how this team plays defense -- as a team, switching everything, being flexible, covering for one another -- he fits in perfectly.
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What I remember of GH is that , he is a solid defender. But with a lack of high end quickness/explosivess and short wingspan.... He has his limitations
KD last season in the playoffs was shooting over him, getting past him etc... I mean GH put on a solid effort..but still
So is this unit of Horford, Morris, Brown, Tatum, Irving/Smart
The best defensive unit for the Celts?
No knock on GH while he is down...just from a tactical perspective
Hayward has excellent lateral quickness, which is why he was such a highly regarded tennis player. He also good leaping ability, but most importantly he also has a great team defender. The guy is slawsys in the right place defensively.
Our best 5 defense unit would be-
Morris
Hayward
Horford
Smart
Brown
I'd actually put Tatum in for Morris as I believe Tatum is a bit more versatile than Morris.
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What I remember of GH is that , he is a solid defender. But with a lack of high end quickness/explosivess and short wingspan.... He has his limitations
KD last season in the playoffs was shooting over him, getting past him etc... I mean GH put on a solid effort..but still
So is this unit of Horford, Morris, Brown, Tatum, Irving/Smart
The best defensive unit for the Celts?
No knock on GH while he is down...just from a tactical perspective
Hayward has excellent lateral quickness, which is why he was such a highly regarded tennis player. He also good leaping ability, but most importantly he also has a great team defender. The guy is slawsys in the right place defensively.
Our best 5 defense unit would be-
Morris
Hayward
Horford
Smart
Brown
I'd actually put Tatum in for Morris as I believe Tatum is a bit more versatile than Morris.
It depends on the opponent, honestly. Against the Cavs Id go with Morris, because hes stronger and better able to withstand LeBron (and is one of the better defenders against him statistically in the league). Against a team with a real center and PF, like the Clippers or Timberwolves, Id probably go with Baynes. But Tatum is a fine choice for some opponents too, and Stevens indeed subbed in Smart for Morris and not Tatum in defense-offense substitutions last night.
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Our best defensive unit? According the basketball reference, here is the top-10 defensive ratings for the entire league:
1. Hassan Whiteside MIA 94.4
2. Terry Rozier BOS 96.6
3. Aron Baynes BOS 96.8
4. Al Horford BOS 96.8
5. Kyrie Irving BOS 96.9
6. Marcus Smart BOS 97.0
7. Jaylen Brown BOS 97.2
8. Ed Davis POR 97.3
9. Jayson Tatum BOS 97.7
10. Andre Drummond DET 98.3
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018_leaders.html
I find these leader stats to be remarkable. CBS is a great coach.
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h CBS is a great coach.
He is a great coach.
I think one of the reason is that most guys on your list are athletes. We are more athletic and lengthy than in past years. Those things really help on D. I hope Ainge keeps getting guys that can stay in front of their man, switch, rotate, and recover on D.
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Hayward does still have size and decent athleticism. He would just mean even more of a relentlessly rotation.
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He came in like a wrecking ball....
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If hes healthy, Hayward would be better than Tatum on D. Not as long, but much stronger and at this point in his career has better understanding of NBA team defense.
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He's going to fit just fine.
He does MANY things very well - defense is one of them.
I don't think he'll be GREAT at any one thing but dude didn't lead Utah to the WCSF by his looks alone, :)
He appears to be the ultimate Glue Guy...he's going to be able to give us whatever we'll need at a particular point in the game...like Marcus Smart but better offensively.
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Our best defensive unit? According the basketball reference, here is the top-10 defensive ratings for the entire league:
1. Hassan Whiteside MIA 94.4
2. Terry Rozier BOS 96.6
3. Aron Baynes BOS 96.8
4. Al Horford BOS 96.8
5. Kyrie Irving BOS 96.9
6. Marcus Smart BOS 97.0
7. Jaylen Brown BOS 97.2
8. Ed Davis POR 97.3
9. Jayson Tatum BOS 97.7
10. Andre Drummond DET 98.3
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018_leaders.html
I find these leader stats to be remarkable. CBS is a great coach.
Good God. We've gotta trade for Ed Davis.
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Our best defensive unit? According the basketball reference, here is the top-10 defensive ratings for the entire league:
1. Hassan Whiteside MIA 94.4
2. Terry Rozier BOS 96.6
3. Aron Baynes BOS 96.8
4. Al Horford BOS 96.8
5. Kyrie Irving BOS 96.9
6. Marcus Smart BOS 97.0
7. Jaylen Brown BOS 97.2
8. Ed Davis POR 97.3
9. Jayson Tatum BOS 97.7
10. Andre Drummond DET 98.3
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018_leaders.html
I find these leader stats to be remarkable. CBS is a great coach.
While it's clear that the Celts have an elite defense (and a great coach), I think these stats speak just as much to how crude defensive stats are still -- very poor at distinguishing an individual's contributions to a strong unit's defense.
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Our best defensive unit? According the basketball reference, here is the top-10 defensive ratings for the entire league:
1. Hassan Whiteside MIA 94.4
2. Terry Rozier BOS 96.6
3. Aron Baynes BOS 96.8
4. Al Horford BOS 96.8
5. Kyrie Irving BOS 96.9
6. Marcus Smart BOS 97.0
7. Jaylen Brown BOS 97.2
8. Ed Davis POR 97.3
9. Jayson Tatum BOS 97.7
10. Andre Drummond DET 98.3
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018_leaders.html
I find these leader stats to be remarkable. CBS is a great coach.
While it's clear that the Celts have an elite defense (and a great coach), I think these stats speak just as much to how crude defensive stats are still -- very poor at distinguishing an individual's contributions to a strong unit's defense.
I agree and disagree. This season could be an utter outlier for the defensive rating, but typically there are few on the same team on the top 10 list, and if they are, the team is a top defensive team.
Because the defensive rating typically does a decent job, it seems better that we should recognize that this team has really been that elite on defense, especially in comparison to the current rest of the league.
However, it is definitely an incomplete stat. I like seeing player tracking stats to see what kind of percentages defenders are holding offensive players to. Although that is an incomplete stat also, it is a primarily individual stat.
Combine the two, and great defenders are at the cross-section.
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Hayward is an under rated defender. If we're talking about who's a better defender at the three, Hayward or Tatum its Hayward right now. Excellent at team defense, good lateral quickness. Nt amazing length, but adequate. Smart-Brown-Hayward-Morriss-Horfrod probably the bets defensive unit we can muster.
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Our best defensive unit? According the basketball reference, here is the top-10 defensive ratings for the entire league:
1. Hassan Whiteside MIA 94.4
2. Terry Rozier BOS 96.6
3. Aron Baynes BOS 96.8
4. Al Horford BOS 96.8
5. Kyrie Irving BOS 96.9
6. Marcus Smart BOS 97.0
7. Jaylen Brown BOS 97.2
8. Ed Davis POR 97.3
9. Jayson Tatum BOS 97.7
10. Andre Drummond DET 98.3
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018_leaders.html
I find these leader stats to be remarkable. CBS is a great coach.
While it's clear that the Celts have an elite defense (and a great coach), I think these stats speak just as much to how crude defensive stats are still -- very poor at distinguishing an individual's contributions to a strong unit's defense.
I agree and disagree. This season could be an utter outlier for the defensive rating, but typically there are few on the same team on the top 10 list, and if they are, the team is a top defensive team.
Because the defensive rating typically does a decent job, it seems better that we should recognize that this team has really been that elite on defense, especially in comparison to the current rest of the league.
However, it is definitely an incomplete stat. I like seeing player tracking stats to see what kind of percentages defenders are holding offensive players to. Although that is an incomplete stat also, it is a primarily individual stat.
Combine the two, and great defenders are at the cross-section.
I don't think this season's team defensive ratings are an outlier. They are an elite defense, and I'd consider the opposite of that -- DRtg is muddied by (and thus better at identifying) team vs. individual defense. We agree, they are elite.
I see the value in opponent's shooting %ages, but it's also flawed and doesn't add much to the quality of defensive stats as a whole. Steph Curry is a good example -- strong DRtg for years, but he's obviously not an elite individual defender. He has a very high BBIQ and is a great ball-hawker, but he's able to relax and gamble on those skills b/c of the truly elite defenders around him.
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Hayward is an under rated defender. If we're talking about who's a better defender at the three, Hayward or Tatum its Hayward right now. Excellent at team defense, good lateral quickness. Nt amazing length, but adequate. Smart-Brown-Hayward-Morriss-Horfrod probably the bets defensive unit we can muster.
Disagree
Hayward is stronger and has experience over Tatum
Tatum is already better at everything else...longer
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Hayward is an under rated defender. If we're talking about who's a better defender at the three, Hayward or Tatum its Hayward right now. Excellent at team defense, good lateral quickness. Nt amazing length, but adequate. Smart-Brown-Hayward-Morriss-Horfrod probably the bets defensive unit we can muster.
Disagree
Hayward is stronger and has experience over Tatum
Tatum is already better at everything else...longer
Someone didn't watch much of GH last year.
Being longer doesn't just make someone better at defence by default. Guess Ben Wallace is inferior to Thabeet.
Hayward is considerably better at defence than Tatum now, but Tatum definitely can be down the track
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My fear is how close to old Hayward will healed Hayward be?
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Hayward is an under rated defender. If we're talking about who's a better defender at the three, Hayward or Tatum its Hayward right now. Excellent at team defense, good lateral quickness. Nt amazing length, but adequate. Smart-Brown-Hayward-Morriss-Horfrod probably the bets defensive unit we can muster.
Disagree
Hayward is stronger and has experience over Tatum
Tatum is already better at everything else...longer
Someone didn't watch much of GH last year.
Being longer doesn't just make someone better at defence by default. Guess Ben Wallace is inferior to Thabeet.
Hayward is considerably better at defence than Tatum now, but Tatum definitely can be down the track
hayward isnt great defensively. Playing in front of Gobert helped him a lot.
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Hayward is an under rated defender. If we're talking about who's a better defender at the three, Hayward or Tatum its Hayward right now. Excellent at team defense, good lateral quickness. Nt amazing length, but adequate. Smart-Brown-Hayward-Morriss-Horfrod probably the bets defensive unit we can muster.
Disagree
Hayward is stronger and has experience over Tatum
Tatum is already better at everything else...longer
Someone didn't watch much of GH last year.
Being longer doesn't just make someone better at defence by default. Guess Ben Wallace is inferior to Thabeet.
Hayward is considerably better at defence than Tatum now, but Tatum definitely can be down the track
hayward isnt great defensively. Playing in front of gobert helped him a lot.
how much jazz basketball did you watch? I asked a Utah jazz board and they described Hayward as a great defender. They think he will help strengthen the Celtic defense and not make it worse
Im actually shocked a little at how many fans are calling Gordon a bad defender. In college he wasnt good but hes one of the better defenders in the league, and one of the reasons the Jazz has a great defense. He switches with ease.
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I have no doubt that Hayward as a defender at SF, the Celtics defense doesn't miss a beat.
The better question would be is how would the defense be effected when Tatum plays more minutes at PF vs. SF.
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Our best defensive unit? According the basketball reference, here is the top-10 defensive ratings for the entire league:
1. Hassan Whiteside MIA 94.4
2. Terry Rozier BOS 96.6
3. Aron Baynes BOS 96.8
4. Al Horford BOS 96.8
5. Kyrie Irving BOS 96.9
6. Marcus Smart BOS 97.0
7. Jaylen Brown BOS 97.2
8. Ed Davis POR 97.3
9. Jayson Tatum BOS 97.7
10. Andre Drummond DET 98.3
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018_leaders.html
I find these leader stats to be remarkable. CBS is a great coach.
While it's clear that the Celts have an elite defense (and a great coach), I think these stats speak just as much to how crude defensive stats are still -- very poor at distinguishing an individual's contributions to a strong unit's defense.
I agree and disagree. This season could be an utter outlier for the defensive rating, but typically there are few on the same team on the top 10 list, and if they are, the team is a top defensive team.
Because the defensive rating typically does a decent job, it seems better that we should recognize that this team has really been that elite on defense, especially in comparison to the current rest of the league.
However, it is definitely an incomplete stat. I like seeing player tracking stats to see what kind of percentages defenders are holding offensive players to. Although that is an incomplete stat also, it is a primarily individual stat.
Combine the two, and great defenders are at the cross-section.
I think Surferdad's point is reinforced if you look back historically. In 2015-16, Andrew Bogut had an (basketball-reference brand) 'offensive rating' of 120 and a defensive rating of 99. The latter mark is probably reflective of his actual play on defense, helping his lineups to a top defensive rating. But the former is almost certainly more reflective of this time spent playing in lineups with Curry, Thompson, Green, Barnes, etc.
If you look at year over-year-data from, say, 2010 through 2017, you see Bogut's defensive ratings fairly consistently close to that '99' value:
98, 97, 100, 100, 100, 96, 97, 99, 104
But if you look at his _offensive_ rating, year over year, you see:
107, 107, 100, 94, 103, 115, 110, 110, 120, 93
In other words, his bb-ref ORtg bounces up & down all over the place, likely in response to the changing rosters around him.
Basketball-reference' itself makes it clear that these ratings are _estimates_ of the points-per-100-possession changes with the player on the floor. They are not actual _measurements_. I would take them with a huge grain of salt. In particular, the formulae they use to estimate the possession counts tends to miss.
To bring this back to the Celtics, I think it's probably reasonable to say that several of the Celtics are playing defense at an elite level. It is also likely that 1 or 2 who are getting a great bb-ref.com mark are just playing well enough that they aren't messing up what those elite defenders are doing. That's commendable in itself. Defense is far more a _team_ effect than offense.
Personally, I really think Horford, Jaylen, Baynes, Rozier & Smart have been playing out-of-this-world defense and that everyone else is playing 'very good' defense. And the collective result is what we have seen.