CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rollie mass on November 16, 2017, 04:42:08 AM
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I was watching his defense and watched him come up with some aggressive steals and was dribbling out inches off the ground.I used to call avery "a pick pocket.It was one thing to watch Marcus strip guys but Kyrie has another style.
I went and looked at his measurements not a special wingspan that might have allowed his low dribble,he didn't compete in combine drills.
He doesn't seem to have burst or speed of Isaiah,he isn't particuarly strong looking and he doesn't seem to have verticality.
What are the attributes that somehow add together and make him such a offensive player.
I did not follow his Duke year or ,the draft at time or early years at Cleveland and he was overshadowed by Lebron.
So how did kyrie evolve and what special traits does he have.
Is he like MESSI in soccer,
He doesn't draw contact the same as Isaiah and doesn't fall the same way-contact seems glancing.
I guess i am watching a final product and wondering what and how he got this way-
Isaiah was jaw dropping with his speed and quickness in change of direction and had a strong small body that took a pounding.
Two of the best but so different-i find Isaiah simpler to understand
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Good points! I believe we should also appreciate his character. Please see below. Thank you!
https://twitter.com/NBA/status/930630701929639936?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sbnation.com%2F2017%2F11%2F15%2F16655306%2Fkyrie-irving-jersey-sneakers-give-away-us-soliders
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To use your football analogy Rollie, Kyrie is basketballs Ronaldinho. Those guys dribble not only their defenders but spectators too. So shifty, so crafty, so many tricks. They have ALL the moves. And one extra element that I like to describe as "inventing a move on the go", a precedent move that they made only because the defense forced them to invent it as there was no other option to keep the ball in possession or to score.
Messi is a pure scalpel, an awl, piercing the defenses with precision and going straight upright toward the goal (X, Y). Ronaldinho and Kyrie have much more flair, the "je ne sais quoi".
Also, they move more laterally (X, Y, Z), sometimes they even dribble the same guys twice on the same play. Just a "little humiliation" to make sure that defender knows who is the boss. Some moves you have to see 5 times in a row at slow-mo to be able to understand/describe them correctly.
Athletically they are similar too. In a way that they are fast in short bursts, quick feet, but their top speed isn't as impressive. And their dexterity and balance are amazing, making them deceptively stout, hard to knock down. Kyrie has wide shoulders and nicely filled frame, he just isn't an Action man.
Anyway, even if you are not a football fan, I think it is worth it to take a look at one of 'Dinho's compilations for 5 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXjawVLAvPk
EDIT: AUS_Celtics, welcoming TP to you!
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I think he has a genius sense of space and angles when driving that enables him to get off shots that others could not.
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I think he has a genius sense of space and angles when driving that enables him to get off shots that others could not.
Yep, this is the answer.
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Thanks for soccer(football analogy)-i had to listen to Isiah Thomas on dribbling as to different types and finger dribbling to a beat in your head. He ranked Kyrie up there high on best list..The fact he was recruited by Duke only played a partial season and still was drafted number one-
So it will take me days to read enough to get a handle on this(pun intended)
TP to you, i got him his first and thanks for soccer video
I live 30 minutes from Manchestor a Boston transplant-seen some great football over here-
Once saw Real Madrid with Zidane,Beckham and Figo
I had a good run twenty years watching Manchestor United--
I think i have noticed a difference in Rozier and Smart as they have picked up on Kyries skills
And Kyrie can get over screens .
The way they are calling moving screens will not help Isaiah and leaning in on three pointers and and carry through not being called now a side out-
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He excels at and loves the "moment"
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He has seemingly endless supply of unorthodox moves that catch defenders off guard and allow him to get buckets in difficult situations.
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Kyrie has some of the best handles of all time. The casual observer does understand how valuable this is; it’s not just about flashiness. Handles allow you to get where you want to get court and get by defrnders at will almost. He’s also one of the best shooters in the nba.
So while he may not have the physical profile of a star, he is Uber skilled.
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Part of the joy of watching Irving play is how effortless he makes the game seem. However, for anyone who has ever played, you realize just how impossible it is to do what he does on a nightly basis. For instance, during the fourth quarter against OKC, I believe he made two left handed shots. It is extremely difficult to have that type of control with your off hand. It seems like every game I watch now, there are at least a 3-5 plays where I'm either laughing (OMG) or my jaw is on the floor, from how unbelievable a play Irving makes.
BTW, I forget who the game was against, but Kyrie's father was in attendance and he refused to do an interview because he wanted the spotlight on his son. Talk about being an anti-Lavar Ball. I have much respect for his dad.
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Kyrie has some of the best handles of all time. The casual observer does understand how valuable this is; it’s not just about flashiness. Handles allow you to get where you want to get court and get by defrnders at will almost. He’s also one of the best shooters in the nba.
So while he may not have the physical profile of a star, he is Uber skilled.
I’ll just add he he also has elite footwork for a PG. Kind of like when Pierce had elite footwork to help his game.
I think he should age well too. He doesn’t rely on elite athleticism like Rose did.
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I don't want to act like I have any great basketball insight or anything but two points I always make to kids who want to play basketball.
The first is easy and straight forward. Ball handling (que jokes) is the most underappreciated and important skill in basketball. It is something you have to practice. You can't play harder and be a better ball handler like you can with rebounding and defense. No matter how tall you are, good ball handling will put you one tier above the talent you otherwise would have. Maybe you are a center in high school and think, ball handling isn't important to me, but the difference between a center who can take a ball reversal pass at the top of the key and take two dribbles to get to the rim and one that has to reverse it and go post up is huge. It is what makes a bench player a starter, or a starter an all district.
The second is how I describe the stages of learning the game. Most players, either in middle school or first year high school start out basketball like playing checkers. These are the pieces, this is the board, you can move here and here and here. You learn the fundamentals of how to dribble, shoot, and defend. It is pretty straight forward. This is a 1-2-2 press, this is where you stand to beat it, this is a 2-3 zone, this is the play we run against it. This is triple threat position and bend your knees and don't dribble the ball so high. Those kinds of things. I'd say most people never learn the game totally in checkers form so they don't ever move on to really playing chess.
Then in second year high schoolish you start to learn the game like chess. This goes basically through college for most kids. You learn how the pieces interact within the game. You scout teams. Different pieces have different abilities so you can't play like checkers anymore. Now the game becomes more based on physical ability, fundamentals, while still retaining the basics of the board like checkers. I'd say the majority of pro players stay in this stage. I'd put a guy like Avery Bradley in this group. He runs the plays, understands matchups, his fundamentals are strong and he is a really good pro and will be for years to come. But when Avery drives to the basket, it seems like his chance of getting off a good shot is 90% lower than IT. Even though Avery is taller and should have it easier. Why is this? It is because IT has moved past Chess.
Players like IT don't play the game on the board anymore. They don't necessarily play the game with fundamentals anymore. They shoot a layup on the left side of the rim off their left foot with their right hand. You wonder how Kyrie can do what he does, how about James Harden? He plays the game in slow motion and still gets his shots off. Some people just have the instincts of spacial awareness to know just how much space they need to get off their shots and just enough physical ability to create it. How they do, I'm not sure.
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Q: What makes Kyrie so great?
A: He's not Isaiah.
:P
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Kyrie is kind of a savant in his own right. Knows exactly how to score on his man without needing to get fouled.
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I think he has a genius sense of space and angles when driving that enables him to get off shots that others could not.
Yes, great spacial intelligence and elite hand-eye coordination. Combined with very good, though not elite, athleticism and quickness.
That's the baseline. Then add the years and years of skill development and you have this result.
This gives Kyrie a very wide margin for error. Where other players may find themselves in bad positions, he still has room to operate whether it's dribbling out of trouble, driving, passing or shooting. He has multiple options at every spot on the floor.
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One thing I've noticed that he does that no one else does is dribble near full speed, then puts on the brakes and stops harder and faster than anyone else can. His sneakers skid some and he ends up so low he's almost parallel to the floor and almost falls, but always seems to regain control and finish. I've never seen a defender that could stay with him when he does that.
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Best handle in the league and one of the best finishing touches around the basket, combined with great speed, great BBIQ, and a great jumpshot.
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I think he has a genius sense of space and angles when driving that enables him to get off shots that others could not.
Yes, great spacial intelligence and elite hand-eye coordination. Combined with very good, though not elite, athleticism and quickness.
That's the baseline. Then add the years and years of skill development and you have this result.
This gives Kyrie a very wide margin for error. Where other players may find themselves in bad positions, he still has room to operate whether it's dribbling out of trouble, driving, passing or shooting. He has multiple options at every spot on the floor.
I mentioned this a while back somewhere. Last year I went to the regular season game where we beat the Cavs at the Garden. I was sitting way up in the nosebleeds, but it made for a really great angle to admire Kyrie's aerial skills. You really can't see a lot of the intricacies of his gyrations from the floor view. He had me shaking my head in disbelief several times. Definitely a unique talent.
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Handle, bbiq, intangibles, length and speed
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Dude does have more handles than a Truckers Convention.
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imo
-best ball handler in the NBA
-most clutch player in the NBA
-best ISO scorer in the NBA
Here is a list of the best ISO players during the 2016-17 season based on points per possession. Interestingly, Marcus Morris was ranked 5th alongside Lillard and KD.
1. Isaiah Thomas (1.12 PPP)
1. Kyrie Irving (1.12 PPP)
3. Chris Paul (1.09 PPP)
3. Stephen Curry (1.09 PPP)
5. Damian Lillard (1.05 PPP)
5. Marcus Morris (1.05 PPP)
5. Kevin Durant (1.05 PPP)
8. DeMar DeRozan (1.02 PPP)
8. Goran Dragic (1.02 PPP)
8. Jeff Teague (1.02 PPP)
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What makes him so great...nights like this.
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Practice, practice, practice....
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I'll co-sign with what so many have said here. His handle his simply memorizing.
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You also can't ignore the confidence he gives to his teammates in the closing minutes of the game. We just have a feeling we can win. And the great thing is that Kyrie gets everyone involved so they aren't just standing there watching him, they are moving, cutting, setting screens, spotting up, because Kyrie will get them the ball if they are in good position to score.