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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: slightly biased bias fan on November 04, 2017, 01:27:20 AM

Title: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: slightly biased bias fan on November 04, 2017, 01:27:20 AM
Given we are going into deep luxury tax very soon, if we had to choose between Rozier and Smart as our future 6th man, who is your pick? Each brings something different to the table as Rozier is more about instant offence, going 100 mph on both ends of the court. Smart is a jack of all trades who is more calculating on offence with a better passing game but lacks a consistent shot, but is a pit bull on defence and cultural leader.

I guess it comes down to financial expense and which is better at leading the second unit, personally I am very torn as i feel Rozier would make the better 6th man but Smart's all round defensive play may be huge come the playoff and when Tatum eventually returns to the bench next season Smart's weakness may be less glaring.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: wayupnorth on November 04, 2017, 01:30:54 AM
That is one tough choice. Glad I trust Danny.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: jpotter33 on November 04, 2017, 01:46:18 AM
Well, Smart is playing himself into an affordable contract with his lack of improvement offensively, so I'd still say him. I think his elite defense, better passing and playmaking, and higher BBIQ are more valuable to us long-term than Rozier's better shooting and scoring, especially once Hayward gets back.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: blink on November 04, 2017, 01:52:29 AM
I know Terry has improved a lot.  Hopefully he keeps improving.  But right now I would have to say keep Smart.  He impacts winning too much.  He has the knack for making the big play when the game is on the line.  He is still a better def player than Terry.

I will say if Terry keeps improving, and he can learn to utilize his speed better on D, and not have as many lost moments when he is switching on D this might become a really difficult decision.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: slightly biased bias fan on November 04, 2017, 01:58:01 AM
I know Terry has improved a lot.  Hopefully he keeps improving.  But right now I would have to say keep Smart.  He impacts winning too much.  He has the knack for making the big play when the game is on the line.  He is still a better def player than Terry.

I will say if Terry keeps improving, and he can learn to utilize his speed better on D, and not have as many lost moments when he is switching on D this might become a really difficult decision.

I've always been a huge Smart fan but this season has scared me when he admitted that he was over weight and seems to have only lost 14 pounds because it was a contract year, I can't remember a top level player who was overweight for the first 3 years of their career.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: blink on November 04, 2017, 02:00:30 AM
I know Terry has improved a lot.  Hopefully he keeps improving.  But right now I would have to say keep Smart.  He impacts winning too much.  He has the knack for making the big play when the game is on the line.  He is still a better def player than Terry.

I will say if Terry keeps improving, and he can learn to utilize his speed better on D, and not have as many lost moments when he is switching on D this might become a really difficult decision.

I've always been a huge Smart fan but this season has scared me when he admitted that he was over weight and seems to have only lost 14 pounds because it was a contract year, I can't remember a top level player who was overweight for the first 3 years of their career.

I guess i am more the opposite, I am glad he finally slimmed down.  more explosive, more quickness.  lets put it this way, who do I want on the court at the end of a close game in the playoffs Smart or Rozier, I still say Smart for that.  That is really what it comes down to for me.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: gouki88 on November 04, 2017, 03:57:39 AM
I know Terry has improved a lot.  Hopefully he keeps improving.  But right now I would have to say keep Smart.  He impacts winning too much.  He has the knack for making the big play when the game is on the line.  He is still a better def player than Terry.

I will say if Terry keeps improving, and he can learn to utilize his speed better on D, and not have as many lost moments when he is switching on D this might become a really difficult decision.

I've always been a huge Smart fan but this season has scared me when he admitted that he was over weight and seems to have only lost 14 pounds because it was a contract year, I can't remember a top level player who was overweight for the first 3 years of their career.
I think his weight loss is more due to team circumstance. This year (especially pre-Hayward injury) had much better wing depth than many of our previous teams. Last season Smart played quite a lot of 3, so being 235-240 and using that weight to box out guys like Tristan Thompson was needed
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: Greyman on November 04, 2017, 04:08:58 AM
Very tough question. Either will do well if they have to go somewhere else. Both contribute to the Celtics. I would have to keep Rozier as I feel he has the higher ceiling due to his scoring.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: trickybilly on November 04, 2017, 05:13:16 AM
After his solid pre-season, including jacked shooting numbers, it would have to have been tempting to sign Marcus to the extension. But then Marcus goes back to his old shooting self (that's not a knock by the way, Marcus is one of my favorite play-makers, and his mind meld with Theis is at times a thing of scary beauty), but YET AGAIN, Danny is proved right by not extending Marcus, checking the market next year, maintaining flexibility etc...

If someone offers Marcus something insane like a near max, then we will have no option but to go all in on Mr Untradeable.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: Androslav on November 04, 2017, 05:30:19 AM
I know Terry has improved a lot.  Hopefully he keeps improving.  But right now I would have to say keep Smart.  He impacts winning too much.  He has the knack for making the big play when the game is on the line.  He is still a better def player than Terry.

I will say if Terry keeps improving, and he can learn to utilize his speed better on D, and not have as many lost moments when he is switching on D this might become a really difficult decision.

I've always been a huge Smart fan but this season has scared me when he admitted that he was over weight and seems to have only lost 14 pounds because it was a contract year, I can't remember a top level player who was overweight for the first 3 years of their career.

I guess i am more the opposite, I am glad he finally slimmed down.  more explosive, more quickness.  lets put it this way, who do I want on the court at the end of a close game in the playoffs Smart or Rozier, I still say Smart for that.  That is really what it comes down to for me.
Yea wingdepth and also he basicaly said it himself he was phat and out of shame, also wore a "mens corset" to look more decent/sportsman like.
I love Marcus, but he needed 3 years to get in the right shape. Better late then never.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: slightly biased bias fan on November 04, 2017, 07:35:49 PM
Haha still can't be split, I'm glad I am not the only one torn between the two.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 04, 2017, 07:38:31 PM
Well, Smart is playing himself into an affordable contract with his lack of improvement offensively, so I'd still say him. I think his elite defense, better passing and playmaking, and higher BBIQ are more valuable to us long-term than Rozier's better shooting and scoring, especially once Hayward gets back.


^.  This .
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: nickagneta on November 04, 2017, 07:47:37 PM
Hoping the LA pick conveys at #2 or #3 and Luka Doncic is this team's 6th man for the next 4 years.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: Phantom255x on November 04, 2017, 07:51:08 PM
Hoping the LA pick conveys at #2 or #3 and Luka Doncic is this team's 6th man for the next 4 years.

Unfortunately I'm starting to think that pick won't convey or will convey at #5 (in which case I'd rather it become 2019 Kings Pick).

Hopefully they trade Lopez or something mid-season to help out, but there just seems to be like 3-4 EXTREMELY BAD teams this year that are worse than the Lakers too (like Atlanta, Dallas, Sacramento).
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: Roy H. on November 04, 2017, 07:51:27 PM
Preferably neither.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: slightly biased bias fan on November 04, 2017, 07:57:57 PM
Preferably neither.

You don't want either on the team long term?

I should say that we don't know if either will be comfortable being a long term back up, I can't remember a single player that chose to come off the bench during his prime. I think Smart could start for a team and perhaps for the right price and situation, teams would want Rozier starting for them too.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: nickagneta on November 04, 2017, 08:04:28 PM
Hoping the LA pick conveys at #2 or #3 and Luka Doncic is this team's 6th man for the next 4 years.

Unfortunately I'm starting to think that pick won't convey or will convey at #5 (in which case I'd rather it become 2019 Kings Pick).

Hopefully they trade Lopez or something mid-season to help out, but there just seems to be like 3-4 EXTREMELY BAD teams this year that are worse than the Lakers too (like Atlanta, Dallas, Sacramento).
Teams landing at 6 through 9 have quite often gotten into the 2nd and 3rd draft slots. Just gotta have some luck. Think positive my friend.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: nickagneta on November 04, 2017, 08:10:27 PM
Preferably neither.
I think both players are okay for now, but long term I want better shooters coming off the bench. As I said, if the LA pick conveys, I think that will probably doom Smart.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: Big333223 on November 04, 2017, 08:14:14 PM
Smart and it's not close.

For some reason, while everybody always (rightfully) rags on Smart for his shooting, nobody seems to mind that Rozier has never shot 32% from 3 and never shot 39% from the floor for a season, including this season. He's a terrific athlete and his percentages are marginally better than Smart's but he is also a terrible shooter.

Smart is a better playmaker, more versatile defender, a better leader and has more heart than almost anyone in the league. There's a reason Stevens plays Marcus more.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: Fafnir on November 04, 2017, 08:18:20 PM
Probably Rozier just because of the contract situation. (ie I don't have to commit long term yet)

I think Smart will remain the better player but its tough to pay a guard a big deal who shoots so poorly.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: BitterJim on November 04, 2017, 08:19:31 PM
Smart and it's not close.

For some reason, while everybody always (rightfully) rags on Smart for his shooting, nobody seems to mind that Rozier has never shot 32% from 3 and never shot 39% from the floor for a season, including this season. He's a terrific athlete and his percentages are marginally better than Smart's but he is also a terrible shooter.

Smart is a better playmaker, more versatile defender, a better leader and has more heart than almost anyone in the league. There's a reason Stevens plays Marcus more.

Agreed. The only things Rozier is definitely better at are rebounding and getting into the lane (but not finishing).  And while Rozier is younger, it's only by 11 days, so that doesn't make a difference.  I'd love to keep them both long term, but if I had to choose then it's Smart 110% of the time
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: jambr380 on November 04, 2017, 09:41:37 PM
If we can only sign one and the contracts are exactly the same, I probably go with Smart.

However, given that Smart's contract is up a year earlier and it is assumed he will get paid considerably more, then the choice has to be Rozier. With so many additional max contracts on the horizon (Irving and hopefully Jaylen/Tatum), the luxury tax penalty is going to be too much to bear.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: Forza Juventus on November 04, 2017, 09:43:48 PM
For some reason, while everybody always (rightfully) rags on Smart for his shooting, nobody seems to mind that Rozier has never shot 32% from 3 and never shot 39% from the floor for a season, including this season. He's a terrific athlete and his percentages are marginally better than Smart's but he is also a terrible shooter.

Smart is a better playmaker, more versatile defender, a better leader and has more heart than almost anyone in the league. There's a reason Stevens plays Marcus more.

Agreed
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: Green-18 on November 04, 2017, 09:45:24 PM
Marcus wins this this one for me.  I trust in Ainge's ability to replace Rozier's strengths through the draft.  What Marcus brings is much more unique and difficult to find.  With that said, I'm still a big fan of Terry. 
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: indeedproceed on November 04, 2017, 10:42:55 PM
Probably Rozier just because of the contract situation. (ie I don't have to commit long term yet)

I think Smart will remain the better player but its tough to pay a guard a big deal who shoots so poorly.

Yes.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: OldSchoolDude on November 04, 2017, 11:01:11 PM
Smart was the 6th pick in the draft and hasn't turned into a starter yet, 6th picks are supposed to become starters, but he could on a different team.  Rozier was the 16th pick, a place where a bench role-player is an acceptable result for the draft position.  Smart is going to get offered more money elsewhere but more than that a bigger role.  His role with us is going to have to shrink next year with Hayward back and Brown developing well.  Last year smart  closed games as our small forward with IT and Bradley in the back court.  We slid Crowder to the 4 and we extremely small.  Now that we have legit wings with size there is no need to play Smart at the 3, Hayward, Tatum, Brown, and Morris can all play the 3.  So Smart will play the 2, but if we want Hayward, Tatum, and Brown on the court together we can play Hayward at the 3, Tatum at the 4, Brown at the 2.  So were do we put smart?  We don't.  If we want to close with Hayward at the 3, Tatum at the 4, Brown at the 2, and we will, then smart is just a 6th man and he really is so much better than that.   If he will take less money to have a lesser role moving forward (remember that we have 3 2019 1st's to go along with the players we are currently developing) then sure keep him over Rozier, but thats probably not happening.  Also as great a defender that Smart is, Rozier is closing the gap and better suited to be a long term bench player.

Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: green_bballers13 on November 04, 2017, 11:08:20 PM
Preferably neither.

I think Smart can be a good player getting solid minutes on a championship team. I usually think a good 6th man is a scorer, but I don't think that needs to be the case.

I'm more concerned about his price tag. I think there's going to be a couple of teams that are willing to overpay. In that case, see ya Marcus.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: Jvalin on November 04, 2017, 11:29:41 PM
Given we are going into deep luxury tax very soon, if we had to choose between Rozier and Smart as our future 6th man, who is your pick? Each brings something different to the table as Rozier is more about instant offence, going 100 mph on both ends of the court. Smart is a jack of all trades who is more calculating on offence with a better passing game but lacks a consistent shot, but is a pit bull on defence and cultural leader.

I guess it comes down to financial expense and which is better at leading the second unit, personally I am very torn as i feel Rozier would make the better 6th man but Smart's all round defensive play may be huge come the playoff and when Tatum eventually returns to the bench next season Smart's weakness may be less glaring.
Don't think Tatum is gonna come off the bench next season. Starting lineup against the Cavs was Kyrie - Brown - Hayward - Tatum - Horford. I can definitely see Tatum playing the 4, especially since he is an elite rebounder at the SF position.

Anyway, I voted for Smart. It's not even close for me. Guess I'm gonna raise some eyebrows but I have never liked Rozier. In all honesty, I want us to trade him. As much as he has improved this season, I have no trust whatsoever in him to handle the ball in the crunch. Cannot play on a set tempo, just runs full speed up and down the court. That's a major problem come playoff time. In fact, CBS was mostly using him off the ball as a weak side shooter during the playoffs.


Love Smart. Hope he signs a long-term contract with the C's next summer.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: LilRip on November 05, 2017, 01:21:12 AM
Smart is an obvious choice for me. Rozier is a better defensive rebounder but Smart is a better playmaker, defender, screen setter, and seemingly has higher IQ. He also seems to come up with a lot of clutch plays, whether it’s a 3 or an drawn charge or an offensive rebound. The team plays better with Smart on the floor.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: coffee425 on November 05, 2017, 01:21:29 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlrGcQDtK90

Plays like this are routine for Marcus and incredibly rare for Terry.
Easy choice for me
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: colincb on November 05, 2017, 01:40:56 AM
Not a big enough sample size, but the stats favor Rozier this season.

Bigger issue is that it seems likely someone will overpay for Smart and I wouldn't match it given guys on the Cs that will surpass him in a year or two.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: Csfan1984 on November 05, 2017, 06:35:12 AM
Comes down to if Smart takes a team friendly deal. Given he can't show better offensive numbers still I think he should take a lesser deal and avoid pressure of a new fan base. We accept what he is already.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: ChillyWilly on November 05, 2017, 06:54:43 AM
Smart is an obvious choice for me. Rozier is a better defensive rebounder but Smart is a better playmaker, defender, screen setter, and seemingly has higher IQ. He also seems to come up with a lot of clutch plays, whether it’s a 3 or an drawn charge or an offensive rebound. The team plays better with Smart on the floor.

Stats don't back you up on this. The team is statistically better with Troz in the game but not by enough to go Troz is the better player. These 2 guys are a wash.

Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: trickybilly on November 05, 2017, 07:43:45 AM
Probably Rozier just because of the contract situation. (ie I don't have to commit long term yet)

I think Smart will remain the better player but its tough to pay a guard a big deal who shoots so poorly.

Rozier is only a year behind...This might take a cap guru to accurately describe this , but I think we could match a 18million per offer sheet, waive end of the roster; and then we would only slightly be into the luxury tax.

I think the bigger roster crunch will be Baynes. Pretty sure we won't have Bird Rights, and he will be looking for a multi-year deal for sure. However, I presume we could sign Baynes before the matching date for Marcus.

This really seems like a June/July thread...
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: loco_91 on November 05, 2017, 08:08:28 AM
Easily Smart. Rozier is better than Smart on offense, but he isn't great--he's still a below-average shooter and a bad passer for a PG. The gap between them on defense is bigger than the gap between them on offense. There's a reason that Stevens always goes to Smart, and not Rozier, in late-game situations.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: timpiker on November 05, 2017, 08:49:09 AM
Pls Danny, keep both!
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: Eja117 on November 05, 2017, 09:00:37 AM
Smart is an obvious choice for me. Rozier is a better defensive rebounder but Smart is a better playmaker, defender, screen setter, and seemingly has higher IQ. He also seems to come up with a lot of clutch plays, whether it’s a 3 or an drawn charge or an offensive rebound. The team plays better with Smart on the floor.

Stats don't back you up on this. The team is statistically better with Troz in the game but not by enough to go Troz is the better player. These 2 guys are a wash.
Exactly. They're basically a wash. It's just that Smart gets the hype and was the 6th pick. He's not worth the extra money. He'll command an extra 20-33% more, but he's at best 7% better player. Maybe. Despite being in the league a year longer.

When a guy is the 6th pick several years in you probably shouldn't be talking about him as a potential 6th man. Not really what we were aiming for.  There has to be some accountability for that like we did with KO and Sully.  Ok. This isn't what we signed up for. Now they're gone. Let the Heat pay KO.
Title: Re: Who's your 6th man and who gets the chop?
Post by: green_bballers13 on November 05, 2017, 09:08:13 AM
Smart is an obvious choice for me. Rozier is a better defensive rebounder but Smart is a better playmaker, defender, screen setter, and seemingly has higher IQ. He also seems to come up with a lot of clutch plays, whether it’s a 3 or an drawn charge or an offensive rebound. The team plays better with Smart on the floor.

Stats don't back you up on this. The team is statistically better with Troz in the game but not by enough to go Troz is the better player. These 2 guys are a wash.
Exactly. They're basically a wash. It's just that Smart gets the hype and was the 6th pick. He's not worth the extra money. He'll command an extra 20-33% more, but he's at best 7% better player. Maybe. Despite being in the league a year longer.

When a guy is the 6th pick several years in you probably shouldn't be talking about him as a potential 6th man. Not really what we were aiming for.  There has to be some accountability for that like we did with KO and Sully.  Ok. This isn't what we signed up for. Now they're gone. Let the Heat pay KO.

Curious how you come up with 7%.

Also, why should Marcus be blamed for being picked 6th. I'm not sure what you mean by accountability. Marcus appears to be playing hard almost all the time.

I'm not convinced that Smart has hit his prime. I think he can get better. Though I don't want to pay him more than 20m per year.
Title: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: Tr1boy on November 05, 2017, 10:10:48 PM
If only one contract is available (15 million x 4 years).

Who would you give it to - Smart or Rozier?

It is looking more and more like the team wont be able to keep both for the long term.. Unfortunately

Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: jambr380 on November 05, 2017, 10:37:11 PM
I think we just had this question yesterday / earlier today...

http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94201.0 (http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=94201.0)

Yours is a little different with an all things being equal scenario. I am going to have to go with none of the above - $15M/yr is way too much for either of these guys, although Smart is probably a little more worthy than Rozier (at the moment).
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: GratefulCs on November 05, 2017, 10:41:44 PM
at the same cost i would EASILY pick smart
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: Tr1boy on November 05, 2017, 10:54:57 PM
at the same cost i would EASILY pick smart

Easily?

Rozier has been important
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: CelticsElite on November 05, 2017, 10:56:02 PM
This is the 15th rozier vs smart thread. Lol wonder how many we will have by the end of the season
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: Mean Gerald Green on November 05, 2017, 11:15:27 PM
at the same cost i would EASILY pick smart

Easily?

Rozier has been important

Not as important as Smart.
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: Tr1boy on November 05, 2017, 11:16:06 PM
This is the 15th rozier vs smart thread. Lol wonder how many we will have by the end of the season

Because its a big deal... and it looks like only one will remain with the team (for the long term) after this season

Both will want fair contracts but after this is settled does it matter - to start or come off the bench?

Smart has shown indications he doesn't care (and remember reading before he volunteered to come off the bench).

Not sure with Rozier...  his future ambitions could be wanting to start
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: TheTruthFot18 on November 05, 2017, 11:26:13 PM
The offense has somehow gotten worse but he impacts the game in so many ways (positively), never mind the hustle and grit we lost with guys like Crowder and AB.
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: positivitize on November 06, 2017, 12:45:37 AM
Smart all day every day.
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: Tr1boy on November 06, 2017, 12:47:13 AM
Smart all day every day.

Who is more reliable on offense?
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on November 06, 2017, 12:51:23 AM
Smart all day every day.

Who is more reliable on offense?

We aren't in need of offense.  His intangibles are what makes him so useful (to the Celtics).  I have a hard time believing his market value is that high, and I'd struggle to dig into my wallet to pay him.  But as far as our team needs are concerned, and his overall impact on the game, it's gotta be Smart at this time.
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: GratefulCs on November 06, 2017, 01:17:30 AM
at the same cost i would EASILY pick smart

Easily?

Rozier has been important
easily
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: playdream on November 06, 2017, 01:34:25 AM
The real question should be
Baynes or Smart
Now that's a hard one
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: YoungOne87 on November 06, 2017, 04:03:54 AM
strange thing last night: they were combined 6-21 from the field, but for +/- smart was +32 and rozier was +22
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: jbpats on November 06, 2017, 10:21:49 AM
Smart for me.
I feel like Rozier is the only player on this team that plays hero ball. Holds the ball longer than he should, dribbles around too much and takes circus shots.
Granted Rozier's circus shots are more accurate than Smarts wide open jumpers.. I just think Smart buys more into Steven's vision and has/ can have a bigger impact. 
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 06, 2017, 11:01:42 AM
I pay both men and hang banners
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: Moranis on November 06, 2017, 11:07:52 AM
I voted for Rozier mostly because his pay increase is delayed a year and that gives Boston another chance to look at him and to hopefully avoid the tax for one more season.
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: moiso on November 06, 2017, 11:16:14 AM
Smart does so much more for the team.  Neither shoot a good percentage  but Smart is an impact player defensively and has been passing the ball very well.  Rozier is a nice spark off the bench but Smart always finishes games.  It’s not very close between the two.
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: Rosco917 on November 06, 2017, 11:29:47 AM
All though Rozier is more reliable on offense, he can also get wild on offense. He's a solid defender too.

Smart has much better playmaking skills, his impact as a big play type of player is a joy to watch. He can defend PG, SG, and SF, and some PF.

I went with Smart.
 
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: Chris22 on November 06, 2017, 01:15:10 PM
I pay both men and hang banners

This.
I would trade Hayward if I had to.
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: Monkhouse on November 06, 2017, 01:26:17 PM
I pay both men and hang banners

This.
I would trade Hayward if I had to.

And that is why Cbloggers wouldn't ever be GM's in real life, lol.
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: BitterJim on November 06, 2017, 02:16:11 PM
Smart all day every day.

Who is more reliable on offense?

Smart.  Neither can be relied on to hit a shot, but Smart is the better playmaker and sets great screens for a guard
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: kozlodoev on November 06, 2017, 02:25:10 PM
Smart all day every day.

Who is more reliable on offense?
Smart. You can rely on him to miss every time, while Rozier can occasionally make a shot. :P
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: Eja117 on November 06, 2017, 09:36:06 PM
The real question should be
Baynes or Smart
Now that's a hard one
Baynes easily
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Dino Pitino on November 06, 2017, 09:59:41 PM
Preferring Rozier or Baynes to Smart is just plain irrational. Madness.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on November 07, 2017, 07:14:50 AM
Preferring Rozier or Baynes to Smart is just plain irrational. Madness.
No it's not. Smart leaving the team is addition by subtraction right now. Baynes has been huge for this team
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Dino Pitino on November 07, 2017, 07:47:29 AM
Quote
Smart leaving the team is addition by subtraction right now.

Absurd.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on November 07, 2017, 08:03:31 AM
Quote
Smart leaving the team is addition by subtraction right now.

Absurd.
We'd never miss him. Not for a minute. 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on November 07, 2017, 08:46:32 AM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 07, 2017, 08:50:32 AM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.

And distributing. He has an advanced feel for passing, especially in the pick and roll. The problem is that his bad shots take away opportunities for him to use his best ability.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on November 07, 2017, 08:54:34 AM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.

And distributing. He has an advanced feel for passing, especially in the pick and roll. The problem is that his bad shots take away opportunities for him to use his best ability.
Yep. Here's the clip of Smart finding Tatum open in the corner with a bullet pass out of the pick and role in the clutch.

https://youtu.be/6OVAhUlJ4os?t=2m12s
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: billysan on November 07, 2017, 10:00:38 AM
It's just not as simple as Rozier vs Smart for me.

We also have to consider Baynes next season and Morris after that.

A deep playoff run puts all 4 in line for a nice contract and I don't see any of them easily replaced.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on November 07, 2017, 10:07:03 AM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.

And distributing. He has an advanced feel for passing, especially in the pick and roll. The problem is that his bad shots take away opportunities for him to use his best ability.
Yep. Here's the clip of Smart finding Tatum open in the corner with a bullet pass out of the pick and role in the clutch.

https://youtu.be/6OVAhUlJ4os?t=2m12s

It was a great look. It didn't hit him in the numbers, but many of those cross court passes from Smart do.

I wish he would take the attitude of Rondo out there. I wish he would only shoot when he had a wide open layup, or an occassional spot-up three. Other than that, I wish he would just look to pass all the time. He is actually really good at setting others up and running the pick-and-roll.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Dino Pitino on November 07, 2017, 12:09:37 PM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.

So you would tell Brad to ask Marcus to take fewer threes? And what do you think Brad would say in return? He's the guy who lets Smart take five threes a game. He's the head coach. What do you think his reasons are?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: iadera on November 07, 2017, 12:54:53 PM
I do choose Smart, but I just don't understand his wish to make plays when he's on the court with whether Irving or Rozier. He desperately wants to be a playmaker in some minutes of the game and he does it terribly (lose ball, bad shots, bad passes...). All other parts of his role in lineup are fine except this. Man, let them make plays and organize our offense, just stop torching the ball. He's great at setting screens, even using missmatches on him which is good and he does it good. Most of his turnovers and bad passes are just unnecessary. I like Smart a lot, but Brad should just not let him hug the ball that much.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Dino Pitino on November 07, 2017, 01:44:54 PM
I like Smart a lot, but Brad should just not let him hug the ball that much.

What do you think Brad would tell you if you told him that?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on November 07, 2017, 02:52:29 PM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.

So you would tell Brad to ask Marcus to take fewer threes? And what do you think Brad would say in return? He's the guy who lets Smart take five threes a game. He's the head coach. What do you think his reasons are?
Probably the same reasons someone let Toine jack up a ridiculous amount of threes he couldn't make
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on November 07, 2017, 05:06:57 PM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.

So you would tell Brad to ask Marcus to take fewer threes? And what do you think Brad would say in return? He's the guy who lets Smart take five threes a game. He's the head coach. What do you think his reasons are?
Not at all. I think Marcus should be focusing more on that part of his game because that's where I think he can be most effective. For Brad, it's not about telling a player what not to do, it's about positive reinforcement. You don't have to say "take fewer three's" if you say "you were getting really good stuff around the basket," and if Marcus is inclined to listen to his coach, that will probably result in a more judicious allotment of 3's.
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: Chris22 on November 07, 2017, 05:09:55 PM
I pay both men and hang banners

This.
I would trade Hayward if I had to.

And that is why Cbloggers wouldn't ever be GM's in real life, lol.

We are 9-2 without Hayward.
We don't need him.
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: nickagneta on November 07, 2017, 07:08:38 PM
I pay both men and hang banners

This.
I would trade Hayward if I had to.

And that is why Cbloggers wouldn't ever be GM's in real life, lol.

We are 9-2 without Hayward.
We don't need him.
If we want to win another title in the very near future we will. I think you are seriously underestimating just how good Gordon Hayward is. He will add another offensive dynamic that this team will need to have if it is ever to compete with the GSW.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Dino Pitino on November 07, 2017, 07:23:49 PM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.

So you would tell Brad to ask Marcus to take fewer threes? And what do you think Brad would say in return? He's the guy who lets Smart take five threes a game. He's the head coach. What do you think his reasons are?
Not at all. I think Marcus should be focusing more on that part of his game because that's where I think he can be most effective. For Brad, it's not about telling a player what not to do, it's about positive reinforcement. You don't have to say "take fewer three's" if you say "you were getting really good stuff around the basket," and if Marcus is inclined to listen to his coach, that will probably result in a more judicious allotment of 3's.

I think you missed the point. Brad isn't telling Marcus to shoot fewer threes. He isn't doing it directly, and he isn't doing it indirectly. He wants Marcus shooting those threes. Why?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on November 07, 2017, 08:03:09 PM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.

So you would tell Brad to ask Marcus to take fewer threes? And what do you think Brad would say in return? He's the guy who lets Smart take five threes a game. He's the head coach. What do you think his reasons are?
Not at all. I think Marcus should be focusing more on that part of his game because that's where I think he can be most effective. For Brad, it's not about telling a player what not to do, it's about positive reinforcement. You don't have to say "take fewer three's" if you say "you were getting really good stuff around the basket," and if Marcus is inclined to listen to his coach, that will probably result in a more judicious allotment of 3's.

I think you missed the point. Brad isn't telling Marcus to shoot fewer threes. He isn't doing it directly, and he isn't doing it indirectly. He wants Marcus shooting those threes. Why?
Since I'm not Brad Stevens, I can't say for sure. My guess is, he's not telling Marcus what shots to take because that's not how he coaches. It seems more like he preaches ball movement and  "good shots" and an open shot is a good one. Furthermore, he seems to understand how much confidence can affect someone's game so he's unlikely to tell anyone "Don't do that," unless they're operating outside the gameplan.

Anyway, it's my opinion that Smart would be more effective if he turned some of his 3's into drives to the rim where, when he's patient, he can be more effective. Not that he should stop shooting them, but that he should focus more on his game closer to the basket, as he seemed to last night. But that's just one ignoramus's opinion.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on November 16, 2017, 09:04:55 PM
Quote
Smart leaving the team is addition by subtraction right now.

Absurd.
We'd never miss him. Not for a minute.
Like I said. We'd never miss Smart. Not for a minute. Every team in the league hopes we resign him.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Birdman on November 16, 2017, 09:14:44 PM
Rozier is an all around better player
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on November 20, 2017, 09:43:10 AM
I think a lot of this team's confidence and never-say-die attitude comes directly from Smart. A lot of people were nervous this summer about the culture of the team translating after turning over so much of the roster and Stevens and Horford are a big part of that but I think the biggest part is Smart's leadership. There's no way to quantify how inspiring it is to see someone like Smart playing as hard as he does every single night no matter what.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on November 24, 2017, 09:34:17 PM
Rozier gets more rebs per game (about 4.8 to 4.4) despite playing about 7 minutes less per game.

Also Smart hasn't shot over 50% in a game all year.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: KGs Knee on November 24, 2017, 09:46:33 PM
One game doesn't change much.

I'd still prefer Smart, but not if he's going to be out of our price range.  I understand the logic behind keeping Rozier, and night's like tonight make that case stronger.  But nights like this seem to come few and far between for T-Roze.

I'd still prefer a more consistent vet in place of one of them.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Kuberski33 on November 24, 2017, 10:57:53 PM
Take away Smart and the identity of the team will change.  This is a team that plays hard more often and more consistently than any other team in the league. Smart is the reason.  Once he locks in, his teammates pick up the intensity as well and he locks in during most games.

Granted when you add Haywood, the team is still going to be really, really good, but without Smart,  they're also going to drop some games on off nights - games that they probably win with Smart on the court in the 4th quarter. 

Plus when you're putting Kyrie, Haywood, Tatum and Horford out there at the end of games - you can afford to have one guy who can't shoot out there with them.

The thing with Smart though is he shoots way too many 3's.  He's got to reign that in.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on November 25, 2017, 07:25:31 AM
I don't believe the theory that the team tries harder because Smart is out there being a top 20 defensive player and the worst offensive player in the league.

I don't believe the identity of the Spurs back in the day was due to Bruce Bowen. I don't believe the identity of the Clippers today is Patrick Beverly. I don't believe the identity of the Celtics was Perk.

I don't believe the identity of the Patriots is Malcolm Butler or Slater.

I don't buy it at all. I think the identity is Brad Stevens and the identity of the Patriots is Belichick
Title: Re: If it came down to it who would you pick: Rozier or Smart?(Poll)
Post by: greece66 on November 25, 2017, 07:30:13 AM
at the same cost i would EASILY pick smart

Easily?

Rozier has been important
easily

very easily

but then I fell in love with Smart from day 1  ;D
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 25, 2017, 07:32:55 AM
Quote
I don't believe the theory that the team tries harder because Smart is out there being a top 20 defensive player and the worst offensive player in the league.

I don't believe the identity of the Spurs back in the day was due to Bruce Bowen. I don't believe the identity of the Clippers today is Patrick Beverly. I don't believe the identity of the Celtics was Perk.

I don't believe the identity of the Patriots is Malcolm Butler or Slater.

I don't buy it at all. I think the identity is Brad Stevens and the identity of the Patriots is Belichick

Defensive guys can be the identity of the team but I think it is rare in basketball and more common in Football.   Ray Lewis of the Ravens is a great example.  Off the top of my head, Bill Russell is the only guy I can think of in basketball who was truly the leader of a team.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: More Banners on November 25, 2017, 08:25:21 AM
Quote
Smart leaving the team is addition by subtraction right now.

Absurd.
We'd never miss him. Not for a minute.
Like I said. We'd never miss Smart. Not for a minute. Every team in the league hopes we resign him.

Yup.

It's like half this blog just gets a brain block when it comes to Smart, forgetting that a pace and space offense is based on guards that can create space with shooting.  Smart keeps shooting because the threat of the 3 can create space, but opponents are starting to sag off. No good.

Oh, but we can't go without Smart. Just like we couldn't win without Tony Turnover Allen.  Or Perk. Or (god help us) Antoine Walker.  It's a next-man-up league.  No freaking bench role player is irreplaceable.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on November 25, 2017, 11:22:49 AM
All smart is doing is shooting himself out of a decent contract

He  is lucky to get a offer of 10 million per season at this rate

26 percent FG shooting *facepalm*
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: nickagneta on November 25, 2017, 12:52:28 PM
I know there are stats that say the Celtics offense is better with Smart on the floor but they don't seem to match the eye test. Also:

FG%: 26.5
3PT%: 24.4
eFG%: 32.3
TS%: 38.7
PER: 8.9
Ortg: 90
OWS:-0.6
OBPM: -2.7
BPM: -0.4
WS/48: 0.45

These are the lowest numbers on the team for rotational players. Some by a wide margin. They tell quite a different tale regarding his importance to this team offensively. My guess is that amongst players in the league playing over 30 MPG, Smart's numbers in some of these categories are around the lowest in the league.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Rosco917 on November 25, 2017, 01:11:25 PM
I understand Smart is having a miserable year scoring the ball, and I also get as frustrated as anyone when the "clunking" begins.

But there is no denying he has an impact on the entire team when he takes the floor. The team energy picks up, defense, pace all increase. Plus, he defends multiple positions well, and he passes the ball very well.

Rozier scores well...sometimes, and is a solid defender.

I'll have to go with Smart.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on November 25, 2017, 01:30:55 PM
I pick Rozier

He has good offensive games at least ....just needs consistency

Smart is beyond repair....

He is Tony Allen part 2 with passable handles and passing skills. Not as good finishing around the basket
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: nickagneta on November 25, 2017, 02:20:31 PM
I pick Rozier

He has good offensive games at least ....just needs consistency

Smart is beyond repair....

He is Tony Allen part 2 with passable handles and passing skills. Not as good finishing around the basket
I don't think you're being fair to Tony Allen in that comparison. Allen has a career FG% of 47% and though he shot threes at only 28%, he always averaged less than 1 3PTA per game. He knew he sucked at shooting threes so didn't take them. Allen also has a career TS% of 53%

Smart on the other hand has career averages of 35% FG%, 29% 3 PT% taking 7 per game, and a TS% of 47%.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: KGs Knee on November 25, 2017, 02:25:46 PM
I pick Rozier

He has good offensive games at least ....just needs consistency

Smart is beyond repair....

He is Tony Allen part 2 with passable handles and passing skills. Not as good finishing around the basket
I don't think you're being fair to Tony Allen in that comparison. Allen has a career FG% of 47% and though he shot threes at only 28%, he always averaged less than 1 3PTA per game. He knew he sucked at shooting threes so didn't take them. Allen also has a career TS% of 53%

Smart on the other hand has career averages of 35% FG%, 29% 3 PT% taking 7 per game, and a TS% of 47%.

I wonder sometimes if people forget pre knee injury Tony Allen.

Never a good perimeter shooter, but had all the athleticism of Jaylen Brown.  He could score, because he could attack the rim with reckless abandon.

But I also wonder if TA came into the league today if he wouldn't be jacking up threes like Smart.  It was a different time back then.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: PAOBoston on November 25, 2017, 03:57:01 PM
At some point, I think they will have to decide between one or the other for cap reasons. But, with Smart's abysmal shooting season, he might have brought his potential price so down that he could just play for the qualifying offer next year.

I don't think they can survive with both of those guys playing in the backcourt while both shooting under 30%.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Jvalin on November 26, 2017, 05:15:48 PM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.

So you would tell Brad to ask Marcus to take fewer threes? And what do you think Brad would say in return? He's the guy who lets Smart take five threes a game. He's the head coach. What do you think his reasons are?
Not at all. I think Marcus should be focusing more on that part of his game because that's where I think he can be most effective. For Brad, it's not about telling a player what not to do, it's about positive reinforcement. You don't have to say "take fewer three's" if you say "you were getting really good stuff around the basket," and if Marcus is inclined to listen to his coach, that will probably result in a more judicious allotment of 3's.

I think you missed the point. Brad isn't telling Marcus to shoot fewer threes. He isn't doing it directly, and he isn't doing it indirectly. He wants Marcus shooting those threes. Why?
TP! That's a great question. Not to mention, his 2FG% is 36.4 (the worst in the team alongside Larkin), yet he is taking 5.2 two-pointers per game. It's not like he is showing improvement either. By all accounts he is having the worst shooting year of his career (29.1% FG, 25% 3P).

https://stats.nba.com/players/shots-general/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&sort=FG2_PCT&dir=1

I would be really interested to read what everybody thinks on this one. Why do you guys think CBS lets Smart take that many shots? Any ideas?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Boris Badenov on November 26, 2017, 05:45:47 PM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.

So you would tell Brad to ask Marcus to take fewer threes? And what do you think Brad would say in return? He's the guy who lets Smart take five threes a game. He's the head coach. What do you think his reasons are?
Not at all. I think Marcus should be focusing more on that part of his game because that's where I think he can be most effective. For Brad, it's not about telling a player what not to do, it's about positive reinforcement. You don't have to say "take fewer three's" if you say "you were getting really good stuff around the basket," and if Marcus is inclined to listen to his coach, that will probably result in a more judicious allotment of 3's.

I think you missed the point. Brad isn't telling Marcus to shoot fewer threes. He isn't doing it directly, and he isn't doing it indirectly. He wants Marcus shooting those threes. Why?
TP! That's a great question. Not to mention, his 2FG% is 36.4 (the worst in the team alongside Larkin), yet he is taking 5.2 two-pointers per game. It's not like he is showing improvement either. By all accounts he is having the worst shooting year of his career (29.1% FG, 25% 3P).

https://stats.nba.com/players/shots-general/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&sort=FG2_PCT&dir=1

I would be really interested to read what everybody thinks on this one. Why do you guys think CBS lets Smart take that many shots? Any ideas?

The rest of the offense is better with him on the court - we average about 5 pts better per 100 possessions with him out there. Our overall scoring is higher. Overall shooting percentages are higher.

And when you factor in his terrible percentages, it means everyone else is shooting *much* better with him out there. (Especially the starters, who shoot much better overall from the field and from 3 with him out there, and boast a +21pt net rating with him in there with Irving/Tatum/Brown/Horford).

I think there are two possibilities:
1. He does lots of little things to make his teammates better;
2. Other teams are not game-planning his poor shooting the right way.

I've seen evidence for both, honestly. It was clear to me that Dallas was funneling the Cs offense into Smart taking 3s. But it also seems like the ball moves really well when he's in there, overall.

What we don't know is how any of this would change if he stopped shooting as much. That's the million-dollar question, right? But it seems like Stevens thinks we would be worse. Why, I don't know.

Honestly this is one of the most puzzling phenomena I've ever seen in about 40 years of watching NBA ball.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: More Banners on November 26, 2017, 05:57:42 PM
I thought Smart had a nice game last night. Only 2 three-point attempts (he was 1/2) and he was doing a lot of his offensive work closer to the basket. Brad should put the clip of John Collins hurting himself jumping so hard at Smart's pump fake on a loop and project it inside Smart's locker.

Get to the rim, pump fake, get to the line. That should be were Smart makes his living.

So you would tell Brad to ask Marcus to take fewer threes? And what do you think Brad would say in return? He's the guy who lets Smart take five threes a game. He's the head coach. What do you think his reasons are?
Not at all. I think Marcus should be focusing more on that part of his game because that's where I think he can be most effective. For Brad, it's not about telling a player what not to do, it's about positive reinforcement. You don't have to say "take fewer three's" if you say "you were getting really good stuff around the basket," and if Marcus is inclined to listen to his coach, that will probably result in a more judicious allotment of 3's.

I think you missed the point. Brad isn't telling Marcus to shoot fewer threes. He isn't doing it directly, and he isn't doing it indirectly. He wants Marcus shooting those threes. Why?
TP! That's a great question. Not to mention, his 2FG% is 36.4 (the worst in the team alongside Larkin), yet he is taking 5.2 two-pointers per game. It's not like he is showing improvement either. By all accounts he is having the worst shooting year of his career (29.1% FG, 25% 3P).

https://stats.nba.com/players/shots-general/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612738&sort=FG2_PCT&dir=1

I would be really interested to read what everybody thinks on this one. Why do you guys think CBS lets Smart take that many shots? Any ideas?

The rest of the offense is better with him on the court - we average about 5 pts better per 100 possessions with him out there. Our overall scoring is higher. Overall shooting percentages are higher.

And when you factor in his terrible percentages, it means everyone else is shooting *much* better with him out there. (Especially the starters, who shoot much better overall from the field and from 3 with him out there, and boast a +21pt net rating with him in there with Irving/Tatum/Brown/Horford).

I think there are two possibilities:
1. He does lots of little things to make his teammates better;
2. Other teams are not game-planning his poor shooting the right way.

I've seen evidence for both, honestly. It was clear to me that Dallas was funneling the Cs offense into Smart taking 3s. But it also seems like the ball moves really well when he's in there, overall.

What we don't know is how any of this would change if he stopped shooting as much. That's the million-dollar question, right? But it seems like Stevens thinks we would be worse. Why, I don't know.

Honestly this is one of the most puzzling phenomena I've ever seen in about 40 years of watching NBA ball.

Brad has said in prior years that the mere threat of the 3 opens up the floor. I guess that's true if opponents have to guard out 24 feet away. I guess that explains the shooting all those 3s. I'd rather he just threaten than miss...maybe take a long wind up like Amir did to either improve his % or pass time waiting for th closeout to attack. But the brick fest looks like a rec league game featuring George Costanza.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on November 26, 2017, 08:00:35 PM
One thing that annoys me about this is that this was supposed to be a slam dunk thing. Easy decision. Smart was the 6th pick in the draft and he was easily supposed to be a much better player that Rozier. It didn't work that way.

At the very least he shouldn't be paid like he really separated himself. 

There are multiple back up guards I'd trade either Rozier or Smart for in a nano second, at least in a vacuum
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: More Banners on November 26, 2017, 08:26:18 PM
One thing that annoys me about this is that this was supposed to be a slam dunk thing. Easy decision. Smart was the 6th pick in the draft and he was easily supposed to be a much better player that Rozier. It didn't work that way.

At the very least he shouldn't be paid like he really separated himself. 

There are multiple back up guards I'd trade either Rozier or Smart for in a nano second, at least in a vacuum

Yeah. Wicked bummer he doesn't look like the star you hope for (but actually rarely get) at 6.

I think of Marcus Banks as a comp often, though Smart is a better passer and rebounder. Banks developed a better 3. For that reason alone he might be more desirable in today's game than Smart, though Smart's D is better.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Jvalin on November 26, 2017, 08:57:47 PM
There are multiple back up guards I'd trade Smart for in a nano second, at least in a vacuum
Wow! Given the circumstances (not in a vacuum), can you please name a few back up guards you'd trade Smart for?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on November 26, 2017, 09:33:04 PM
There are multiple back up guards I'd trade Smart for in a nano second, at least in a vacuum
Wow! Given the circumstances (not in a vacuum), can you please name a few back up guards you'd trade Smart for?
My reference to a vacuum has to do with the whole money aspect of things. Forgiving that here is a list of backup pgs I'd rather have than Smart

Jordan Clarkson
Milos Teodosic
De'Aaron Fox
Frank Ntilikina
Dejounte Murray
Kris Dunn

I think if I were told he was traded for Jerian Grant, Emmanuel Mudiay, or Delon Grant I could probably be persuaded to see the silver lining there

Malcolm Brogdan is currently a backup and a no brainer


Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on November 26, 2017, 10:02:07 PM
There are multiple back up guards I'd trade Smart for in a nano second, at least in a vacuum
Wow! Given the circumstances (not in a vacuum), can you please name a few back up guards you'd trade Smart for?
My reference to a vacuum has to do with the whole money aspect of things. Forgiving that here is a list of backup pgs I'd rather have than Smart

Jordan Clarkson
Milos Teodosic
De'Aaron Fox
Frank Ntilikina
Dejounte Murray
Kris Dunn

I think if I were told he was traded for Jerian Grant, Emmanuel Mudiay, or Delon Grant I could probably be persuaded to see the silver lining there

Malcolm Brogdan is currently a backup and a no brainer
Wow. The only guys you mention I would trade Marcus for, straight-up, would be Malcolm Brogdon or De'Aron Fox and with Fox, it's only because of his potential, not what he's doing now.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Chris22 on November 26, 2017, 10:56:21 PM
Smart's contract runs out this year, and Rozier's runs out next year, so there will be two separate decisions made a year apart.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Jvalin on November 26, 2017, 11:16:27 PM
There are multiple back up guards I'd trade Smart for in a nano second, at least in a vacuum
Wow! Given the circumstances (not in a vacuum), can you please name a few back up guards you'd trade Smart for?
My reference to a vacuum has to do with the whole money aspect of things. Forgiving that here is a list of backup pgs I'd rather have than Smart

Jordan Clarkson
Milos Teodosic
De'Aaron Fox
Frank Ntilikina
Dejounte Murray
Kris Dunn

I think if I were told he was traded for Jerian Grant, Emmanuel Mudiay, or Delon Grant I could probably be persuaded to see the silver lining there

Malcolm Brogdan is currently a backup and a no brainer
Fair enough. I would consider trading Smart for some of those guys too (Brogdon, probably Ntilikina, possibly Clarkson, Fox). Was trying to think of realistic trades though. I mean, I would trade Smart for Brogdon, but the Bucks would never do it. Realistically speaking, I cannot think of a single straight up trade I would be willing to do involving Smart.

I guess you mean Delon Wright? (otherwise who the hell is Delon Grant?)
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: wiley on November 27, 2017, 01:07:31 AM
Smart shot well against the Pacers.  It was nice to see him hit some two point jumpers.  Why not let him do that for a while to get his percentages up a bit.  I'd make him hit a few two point jump shots each game before allowing him to step out and shoot the three.  Overall though I don't worry about Smart's shooting. 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on December 18, 2017, 09:47:29 PM
Ahem. So as I was saying Rozier does about 85% as much as Smart, but presumably will be paid a lot less for it.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Moranis on December 19, 2017, 10:37:13 AM
Ahem. So as I was saying Rozier does about 85% as much as Smart, but presumably will be paid a lot less for it.
Rozier also does certain things better than Smart.  If they were priced the same you would choose Smart, but as I don't think they will be priced the same, I would choose Rozier. 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on December 19, 2017, 11:07:43 AM
Ahem. So as I was saying Rozier does about 85% as much as Smart, but presumably will be paid a lot less for it.
Rozier also does certain things better than Smart.  If they were priced the same you would choose Smart, but as I don't think they will be priced the same, I would choose Rozier.
That's about where I am on this
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: showtime on December 19, 2017, 11:27:33 AM
 Rozier has more upside!! Smart can't shoot, makes stupid passes, and is not nearly as good on defense as some think!!"
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: kozlodoev on December 19, 2017, 11:29:54 AM
I'd get rid of both and find a backup G who can actually hit a shot. This team needs Eddie House.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on January 31, 2018, 10:13:02 PM
Rozier gets a triple double in his first start while Smart sits at home because he can't handle his stuff.

This debate is over.

It's Rozier by a slam dunk, almost literally.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on February 01, 2018, 10:57:04 AM
Rozier gets a triple double in his first start while Smart sits at home because he can't handle his stuff.

This debate is over.

It's Rozier by a slam dunk, almost literally.

If you like Rozier better than Smart, that's fine, but calling it a slam dunk because Rozier had one good game does not make much sense to me.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: coffee425 on February 01, 2018, 11:25:59 AM
Rozier gets a triple double in his first start while Smart sits at home because he can't handle his stuff.

This debate is over.

It's Rozier by a slam dunk, almost literally.

You are right. Same logic applies to Kyrie. Time to build around Terry.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: jpotter33 on February 01, 2018, 12:05:42 PM
Rozier gets a triple double in his first start while Smart sits at home because he can't handle his stuff.

This debate is over.

It's Rozier by a slam dunk, almost literally.

Eja117 in Rozier’s previous horrible nine game stretch where he averaged 7.1 pts, 2.3 asts, 3.6 rebs on 31.9/27.9/78.5 shooting splits:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/onGms5iFkVCFy/giphy.gif)

Eja117 after Rozier’s one good game against a terrible Knicks team:

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/5GoVLqeAOo6PK/giphy.gif)

 ;D ::)
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Phantom255x on February 01, 2018, 12:12:23 PM
Rozier gets a triple double in his first start while Smart sits at home because he can't handle his stuff.

This debate is over.

It's Rozier by a slam dunk, almost literally.

Eja117 in Rozier’s previous horrible nine game stretch where he averaged 7.1 pts, 2.3 asts, 3.6 rebs on 31.9/27.9/78.5 shooting splits:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/onGms5iFkVCFy/giphy.gif)

Eja117 after Rozier’s one good game against a terrible Knicks team:

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/5GoVLqeAOo6PK/giphy.gif)

 ;D ::)

It's officially time to trade away Kyrie, let Smart walk for nothing, and build with Terry!!  ::)

I mean I hope Rozier does a lot of good things for us and think he's a solid player, but wow one game and we're already making these bold claims?? Let him start a few games in a row and see if he keeps it up.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: wdleehi on February 01, 2018, 12:18:26 PM
Next year, Rozier.   What Smart does better then Rozier is not that much better to pay Smart starter money.   

Not when you consider that the team will have Hayward back, and another year of development for Brown and Tatum.


Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: spikelovetheCelts on February 01, 2018, 12:22:07 PM
If Smart is not over priced. We should keep both.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: jambr380 on February 01, 2018, 12:55:46 PM
I was sure that Smart was going to make more than Rozier, but now I am not so certain. Rozier has gotten a lot of hype recently as people have taken notice of his incredible motor, rebounding, and ability to score in a variety of ways. Smart, otoh, has had a fairly disappointing contract year and recently made a bonehead mistake that even the coach is talking about publicly.

This may not be fair to Smart - who has proven to be one of the premier defenders in this league - but this could benefit us in contract negotiations with him and in trade negotiations with Rozier as he still has another year left on his contract.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on February 02, 2018, 08:47:29 AM
Rozier gets a triple double in his first start while Smart sits at home because he can't handle his stuff.

This debate is over.

It's Rozier by a slam dunk, almost literally.

Eja117 in Rozier’s previous horrible nine game stretch where he averaged 7.1 pts, 2.3 asts, 3.6 rebs on 31.9/27.9/78.5 shooting splits:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/onGms5iFkVCFy/giphy.gif)

Eja117 after Rozier’s one good game against a terrible Knicks team:

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/5GoVLqeAOo6PK/giphy.gif)

 ;D ::)
That's basically the way it is every single game Smart's in. He clangs 9 shots in a row, does nothing, then makes one good play at the end.

That's when he actually shows up to do his job, which he isn't doing.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on February 02, 2018, 03:46:51 PM
Rozier gets a triple double in his first start while Smart sits at home because he can't handle his stuff.

This debate is over.

It's Rozier by a slam dunk, almost literally.

Eja117 in Rozier’s previous horrible nine game stretch where he averaged 7.1 pts, 2.3 asts, 3.6 rebs on 31.9/27.9/78.5 shooting splits:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/onGms5iFkVCFy/giphy.gif)

Eja117 after Rozier’s one good game against a terrible Knicks team:

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/5GoVLqeAOo6PK/giphy.gif)

 ;D ::)
That's basically the way it is every single game Smart's in. He clangs 9 shots in a row, does nothing, then makes one good play at the end.

That's when he actually shows up to do his job, which he isn't doing.

It seems like you misunderstand what Smart's job is on this team. He's the best, most versatile defender on the Celtics and he runs the second unit offense. Defending and initiating the offense after Kyrie and Horford are his jobs.

If he's going to be on the floor, he has to shoot and try to score but being a shooter/scorer is not really his job.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on February 02, 2018, 04:01:37 PM
Rozy
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: nickagneta on February 02, 2018, 04:06:22 PM
Rozier gets a triple double in his first start while Smart sits at home because he can't handle his stuff.

This debate is over.

It's Rozier by a slam dunk, almost literally.

Eja117 in Rozier’s previous horrible nine game stretch where he averaged 7.1 pts, 2.3 asts, 3.6 rebs on 31.9/27.9/78.5 shooting splits:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/onGms5iFkVCFy/giphy.gif)

Eja117 after Rozier’s one good game against a terrible Knicks team:

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/5GoVLqeAOo6PK/giphy.gif)

 ;D ::)
That's basically the way it is every single game Smart's in. He clangs 9 shots in a row, does nothing, then makes one good play at the end.

That's when he actually shows up to do his job, which he isn't doing.

It seems like you misunderstand what Smart's job is on this team. He's the best, most versatile defender on the Celtics and he runs the second unit offense. Defending and initiating the offense after Kyrie and Horford are his jobs.

If he's going to be on the floor, he has to shoot and try to score but being a shooter/scorer is not really his job.
Then why is he shooting 10 shots a game...as much as Jayson Tatum, who's job is to shoot and score. Why is he taking the second most 3 point shots(4.6) a game on the team then?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Evantime34 on February 02, 2018, 04:13:33 PM
You keep both, letting as asset walk for nothing in free agency is a bad idea when their roster slot will be filled by a vet min guy.

They could conceivably keep Smart in the offseason without going into the tax. Then when it comes time to re-sign Rozier they can go into the tax to do so.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on February 03, 2018, 04:40:50 PM
Rozier gets a triple double in his first start while Smart sits at home because he can't handle his stuff.

This debate is over.

It's Rozier by a slam dunk, almost literally.

Eja117 in Rozier’s previous horrible nine game stretch where he averaged 7.1 pts, 2.3 asts, 3.6 rebs on 31.9/27.9/78.5 shooting splits:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/onGms5iFkVCFy/giphy.gif)

Eja117 after Rozier’s one good game against a terrible Knicks team:

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/5GoVLqeAOo6PK/giphy.gif)

 ;D ::)
That's basically the way it is every single game Smart's in. He clangs 9 shots in a row, does nothing, then makes one good play at the end.

That's when he actually shows up to do his job, which he isn't doing.

It seems like you misunderstand what Smart's job is on this team. He's the best, most versatile defender on the Celtics and he runs the second unit offense. Defending and initiating the offense after Kyrie and Horford are his jobs.

If he's going to be on the floor, he has to shoot and try to score but being a shooter/scorer is not really his job.
Then why is he shooting 10 shots a game...as much as Jayson Tatum, who's job is to shoot and score. Why is he taking the second most 3 point shots(4.6) a game on the team then?

Like I said above, if he's on the floor he has to at least be trying to score otherwise he's making things even harder for the rest of the offense. Is 10 shots too many? Probably. Does Smart take shots he ought not to? Yeah. But that doesn't change the fact that his primary job on this team is not his scoring.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: nickagneta on February 03, 2018, 04:45:13 PM
Rozier gets a triple double in his first start while Smart sits at home because he can't handle his stuff.

This debate is over.

It's Rozier by a slam dunk, almost literally.

Eja117 in Rozier’s previous horrible nine game stretch where he averaged 7.1 pts, 2.3 asts, 3.6 rebs on 31.9/27.9/78.5 shooting splits:

(https://media.giphy.com/media/onGms5iFkVCFy/giphy.gif)

Eja117 after Rozier’s one good game against a terrible Knicks team:

(https://media0.giphy.com/media/5GoVLqeAOo6PK/giphy.gif)

 ;D ::)
That's basically the way it is every single game Smart's in. He clangs 9 shots in a row, does nothing, then makes one good play at the end.

That's when he actually shows up to do his job, which he isn't doing.

It seems like you misunderstand what Smart's job is on this team. He's the best, most versatile defender on the Celtics and he runs the second unit offense. Defending and initiating the offense after Kyrie and Horford are his jobs.

If he's going to be on the floor, he has to shoot and try to score but being a shooter/scorer is not really his job.
Then why is he shooting 10 shots a game...as much as Jayson Tatum, who's job is to shoot and score. Why is he taking the second most 3 point shots(4.6) a game on the team then?

Like I said above, if he's on the floor he has to at least be trying to score otherwise he's making things even harder for the rest of the offense. Is 10 shots too many? Probably. Does Smart take shots he ought not to? Yeah. But that doesn't change the fact that his primary job on this team is not his scoring.
I agree but someone needs to tell Smart that his job isn't to be a primary shooter/scorer because he has that mindset without having the ability.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on February 04, 2018, 01:31:13 PM
I just want to tell y'all that the next time someone brings up that I suggested the Pats look at what they could get for Brady back when the Jets were coming into Gillette and beating the Pats in playoff games with Sanchez I will remind everyone that I was on top of the Smart thing like a year before anyone else.    Granted the Smart book isn't written yet.

I also jumped on the trade Sully train after he beat his girlfriend like a year before he went Toronto and two years before he went to China.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Neurotic Guy on February 04, 2018, 01:41:29 PM
If the question is just Smart v. Rozier without context of who else is involved, I keep Smart without question. Smart on the floor in the last 5 minutes outweighs anything TR brings and compensates for anything Marcus costs the team with his shooting.

If C's get/keep Tyreke Evans, that changes the equation for me.  With Tyreke in hand, I keep TR.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: KGBirdBias on February 09, 2018, 07:08:00 PM
Ainge loves Smart and Rozzay because he sees himself in both of them.

Ainge was scrappy, at times grimy and dirty and a flopper and crier at times...like Smart.

Ainge was gutsy on offense and would go 100 mph and hit big shots...like Rozzay.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on February 12, 2018, 03:43:15 PM
Marcus Smart. Sign him to a 3 year 30 million dollar deal

Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: nickagneta on February 12, 2018, 04:11:35 PM
Marcus Smart. Sign him to a 3 year 30 million dollar deal
That will be too much given this offseason financial dynamics. I doubt Smart gets a deal that per year is higher than the MLE. I wouldn't be surprised to see him take his qualifying offer.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on April 15, 2018, 08:08:05 PM
Annnnnd this discussion is over.

Kinda a fun thread for me to look back at.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: rondofan1255 on April 15, 2018, 08:12:25 PM
Annnnnd this discussion is over.

Kinda a fun thread for me to look back at.

Haha. Poll shows I voted Smart... Depends on the price I guess.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Green-18 on April 15, 2018, 08:43:10 PM
I still lean towards Smart because he impacts winning more consistently throughout the duration of a game.  Rozier has been insane with the clutch shooting but he also is prone to major mistakes. 

Smart will also fit in seamlessly with the return of Hayward and Kyrie.  As for Rozier, I would argue that his biggest strengths are somewhat negated once the rest of this group reaches its potential. 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Vox_Populi on April 15, 2018, 08:56:07 PM
Annnnnd this discussion is over.

Kinda a fun thread for me to look back at.
Why would it be over?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 15, 2018, 09:01:03 PM
Smart all day long .

I like Rozier to a point . 

Smart is a rare type of player today .   Old school .....he impacts the team , tuffness for the rookies to emulate.

CBS said it best .....he impacts winning , even if he never scores but one point .....it may because of a play he makes happen
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on April 15, 2018, 09:08:44 PM
Annnnnd this discussion is over.

Kinda a fun thread for me to look back at.
Why would it be over?
I do realize that Rozier could make the all Nba Team while Smart could be struggling as a 7th man and there would be people saying they'd rather keep Smart due to his hard nosed play and tremendous defense but in the real world this deal is done.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: CelticsElite on April 15, 2018, 09:31:27 PM
My opinion: we will use rozier to play hardball with smart contact negotiations "if you won't accept our offer, fine  we will just pay rozier"

I think what happens will be dictated on whether smart stays on Dannys offer
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: jpotter33 on April 15, 2018, 09:48:41 PM
Annnnnd this discussion is over.

Kinda a fun thread for me to look back at.
Why would it be over?
I do realize that Rozier could make the all Nba Team while Smart could be struggling as a 7th man and there would be people saying they'd rather keep Smart due to his hard nosed play and tremendous defense but in the real world this deal is done.

You do realize that Rozier nearly single-handedly lost us the game and played like hot garbage for all but like the last 6 minutes of the game, right? Not exactly sure where you're going with this, but that's pretty much the MO with this whole Smart vs. Rozier debate with you.

EDIT: And by the way, at this point it seems pretty clear that the market will have us much more likely to keep Smart than Rozier. Unless Smart takes the QO and goes full free agent next summer, the market will be limited for him this summer with so little money available. IIRC, the same isn't true about the market when Rozier reaches RFA, which I would guess means he will get a sizable offer from somewhere, especially with his play after Kyrie went down.

And besides, with the development of Brown and Tatum and Kyrie and Hayward coming back, we need Smart's elite perimeter D, high BBIQ, and intangibles much more than Rozier's bench scoring and athleticism. Still clearly a Smart over Rozier decision for me, even if it's now due to Rozier probably playing his way out of our price range and others on our team filling the scoring/shooting needs that Smart lacks.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Sophomore on April 15, 2018, 10:38:25 PM
Annnnnd this discussion is over.

Kinda a fun thread for me to look back at.
Why would it be over?
I do realize that Rozier could make the all Nba Team while Smart could be struggling as a 7th man and there would be people saying they'd rather keep Smart due to his hard nosed play and tremendous defense but in the real world this deal is done.

You do realize that Rozier nearly single-handedly lost us the game and played like hot garbage for all but like the last 6 minutes of the game, right? Not exactly sure where you're going with this, but that's pretty much the MO with this whole Smart vs. Rozier debate with you.

EDIT: And by the way, at this point it seems pretty clear that the market will have us much more likely to keep Smart than Rozier. Unless Smart takes the QO and goes full free agent next summer, the market will be limited for him this summer with so little money available. IIRC, the same isn't true about the market when Rozier reaches RFA, which I would guess means he will get a sizable offer from somewhere, especially with his play after Kyrie went down.

And besides, with the development of Brown and Tatum and Kyrie and Hayward coming back, we need Smart's elite perimeter D, high BBIQ, and intangibles much more than Rozier's bench scoring and athleticism. Still clearly a Smart over Rozier decision for me, even if it's now due to Rozier probably playing his way out of our price range and others on our team filling the scoring/shooting needs that Smart lacks.

For the reasons Nick says, Smart is just more valuable to the Cs than to other teams. TRoz would be a heck of a luxury next year as a bench player, but if Gordon and Kyrie are coming back, a trade to get some value seems like a better move.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: playdream on April 16, 2018, 01:29:00 AM
Annnnnd this discussion is over.

Kinda a fun thread for me to look back at.
Why would it be over?
I do realize that Rozier could make the all Nba Team while Smart could be struggling as a 7th man and there would be people saying they'd rather keep Smart due to his hard nosed play and tremendous defense but in the real world this deal is done.

You do realize that Rozier nearly single-handedly lost us the game and played like hot garbage for all but like the last 6 minutes of the game, right? Not exactly sure where you're going with this, but that's pretty much the MO with this whole Smart vs. Rozier debate with you.

EDIT: And by the way, at this point it seems pretty clear that the market will have us much more likely to keep Smart than Rozier. Unless Smart takes the QO and goes full free agent next summer, the market will be limited for him this summer with so little money available. IIRC, the same isn't true about the market when Rozier reaches RFA, which I would guess means he will get a sizable offer from somewhere, especially with his play after Kyrie went down.

And besides, with the development of Brown and Tatum and Kyrie and Hayward coming back, we need Smart's elite perimeter D, high BBIQ, and intangibles much more than Rozier's bench scoring and athleticism. Still clearly a Smart over Rozier decision for me, even if it's now due to Rozier probably playing his way out of our price range and others on our team filling the scoring/shooting needs that Smart lacks.
Basically this, With KI,GH,Brown,Tatum we have enough fire power, i want a six man that can give hustle winning plays and all NBA defense every single game
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: feckless on April 16, 2018, 01:33:31 AM
Does anyone think that if it was reversed- Rozier out and Smart playing major minutes at PG-
we would have won today?  I just don't see it.

I just don't see what Marcus could do to keep the offense working - yes Terry took some bad shots and drove into bigs a couple times, just like Marcus would have.  But in general he ran the offense, kept the ball moving, had few turnovers, played solid D and provided clutch offense.  What offense much less clutch offense is there to be found in Smart's game. Marcus cannot get by anyone or get his shot off under pressure.  Apart from an occasional nice pass Marcus does not run the offense well at all.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: keevsnick on April 16, 2018, 02:05:13 AM
Annnnnd this discussion is over.

Kinda a fun thread for me to look back at.
Why would it be over?
I do realize that Rozier could make the all Nba Team while Smart could be struggling as a 7th man and there would be people saying they'd rather keep Smart due to his hard nosed play and tremendous defense but in the real world this deal is done.

You do realize that Rozier nearly single-handedly lost us the game and played like hot garbage for all but like the last 6 minutes of the game, right? Not exactly sure where you're going with this, but that's pretty much the MO with this whole Smart vs. Rozier debate with you.

EDIT: And by the way, at this point it seems pretty clear that the market will have us much more likely to keep Smart than Rozier. Unless Smart takes the QO and goes full free agent next summer, the market will be limited for him this summer with so little money available. IIRC, the same isn't true about the market when Rozier reaches RFA, which I would guess means he will get a sizable offer from somewhere, especially with his play after Kyrie went down.

And besides, with the development of Brown and Tatum and Kyrie and Hayward coming back, we need Smart's elite perimeter D, high BBIQ, and intangibles much more than Rozier's bench scoring and athleticism. Still clearly a Smart over Rozier decision for me, even if it's now due to Rozier probably playing his way out of our price range and others on our team filling the scoring/shooting needs that Smart lacks.
Basically this, With KI,GH,Brown,Tatum we have enough fire power, i want a six man that can give hustle winning plays and all NBA defense every single game
Ya it may be that who you'd rather have in a vacuum (Rozier) is different than who is a better fit on this team (Smart, maybe?). And in the end mart will probably be cheaper. Then again I have a sneaking suspicion he will take end up taking the QO.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: CelticsElite on April 16, 2018, 02:28:09 AM
I can see the argument for both guys


I'm starting to lean toward Keeping smart to have that tony allen type of bench glue guy. It was an important role during our title win. With Hayward and kyrie returning, will we really need roziers (sometimes streaky) offense? the defensive glue from smart and his ability to steal could be useful for the doldrums our team miteam have. I get it, rozier is also decent at stealing and defensive solid decent. At the end of the day, whichever we keep will be a good choice
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: CelticsElite on April 16, 2018, 02:31:03 AM
Annnnnd this discussion is over.

Kinda a fun thread for me to look back at.
Why would it be over?
I do realize that Rozier could make the all Nba Team while Smart could be struggling as a 7th man and there would be people saying they'd rather keep Smart due to his hard nosed play and tremendous defense but in the real world this deal is done.

You do realize that Rozier nearly single-handedly lost us the game and played like hot garbage for all but like the last 6 minutes of the game, right? Not exactly sure where you're going with this, but that's pretty much the MO with this whole Smart vs. Rozier debate with you.

EDIT: And by the way, at this point it seems pretty clear that the market will have us much more likely to keep Smart than Rozier. Unless Smart takes the QO and goes full free agent next summer, the market will be limited for him this summer with so little money available. IIRC, the same isn't true about the market when Rozier reaches RFA, which I would guess means he will get a sizable offer from somewhere, especially with his play after Kyrie went down.

And besides, with the development of Brown and Tatum and Kyrie and Hayward coming back, we need Smart's elite perimeter D, high BBIQ, and intangibles much more than Rozier's bench scoring and athleticism. Still clearly a Smart over Rozier decision for me, even if it's now due to Rozier probably playing his way out of our price range and others on our team filling the scoring/shooting needs that Smart lacks.
Basically this, With KI,GH,Brown,Tatum we have enough fire power, i want a six man that can give hustle winning plays and all NBA defense every single game
don't forget, marcus Morris fire power as well. The guy drops 20+ pts almost every other game now. I didn't think he'd be this good but he is
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: kozlodoev on April 16, 2018, 07:31:29 AM
Annnnnd this discussion is over.

Kinda a fun thread for me to look back at.
Why would it be over?
I do realize that Rozier could make the all Nba Team while Smart could be struggling as a 7th man and there would be people saying they'd rather keep Smart due to his hard nosed play and tremendous defense but in the real world this deal is done.

You do realize that Rozier nearly single-handedly lost us the game and played like hot garbage for all but like the last 6 minutes of the game, right? Not exactly sure where you're going with this, but that's pretty much the MO with this whole Smart vs. Rozier debate with you.

EDIT: And by the way, at this point it seems pretty clear that the market will have us much more likely to keep Smart than Rozier. Unless Smart takes the QO and goes full free agent next summer, the market will be limited for him this summer with so little money available. IIRC, the same isn't true about the market when Rozier reaches RFA, which I would guess means he will get a sizable offer from somewhere, especially with his play after Kyrie went down.

And besides, with the development of Brown and Tatum and Kyrie and Hayward coming back, we need Smart's elite perimeter D, high BBIQ, and intangibles much more than Rozier's bench scoring and athleticism. Still clearly a Smart over Rozier decision for me, even if it's now due to Rozier probably playing his way out of our price range and others on our team filling the scoring/shooting needs that Smart lacks.
Basically this, With KI,GH,Brown,Tatum we have enough fire power, i want a six man that can give hustle winning plays and all NBA defense every single game
don't forget, marcus Morris fire power as well. The guy drops 20+ pts almost every other game now. I didn't think he'd be this good but he is
No one did. Morris has set career highs in per minute production across the board this season
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on April 16, 2018, 07:51:23 AM
So basically the pro Smart crowd used to make the case that we needed to keep Smart because he was the better player. Now they make the case that we need to keep Smart because Rozier is the better player
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: moiso on April 16, 2018, 08:15:11 AM
So basically the pro Smart crowd used to make the case that we needed to keep Smart because he was the better player. Now they make the case that we need to keep Smart because Rozier is the better player
Putting a team together is like putting a puzzle together.  You don't just put it together with the highest scoring guys at each position.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Green-18 on April 16, 2018, 08:51:33 AM
So basically the pro Smart crowd used to make the case that we needed to keep Smart because he was the better player. Now they make the case that we need to keep Smart because Rozier is the better player

I'm not sure who argued that but my reasons have nothing to do with thinking Rozier is better or worse.  My argument is based strictly within the context of our team going forward.  I firmly believe that Smart is more valuable on a team with Kyrie, Hayward, Horford, Tatum, and Jaylen.  The discrepancy in value only increases once we face an elite team like Golden State or Houston.  Rozier is proving to be an extremely clutch shot maker but he still doesn't impact the overall outcome over the course of 30+ minutes in the same way that Marcus does.  I simply believe that Marcus has a larger impact over 50-60 possessions than Rozier.  Let's also not forget that Marcus has made plenty of clutch plays in big games.   If I was a borderline playoff team that needed scoring punch then Rozier might be my choice.

Does everyone remember when Curry dropped 49 points against us in a tight game against the Warriors?  Does this happen if Marcus Smart had been playing?  Most likely not.  Brad has also cited Marcus as the real defensive leader when Horford is on the bench.  This type of leadership will make a real impact when we play elite teams on the biggest stage.  How many times have we seen Marcus come up with a steal, assist or score a bucket, and then take a charge in the 4th quarter, all on consecutive possessions? 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: BitterJim on April 16, 2018, 09:18:33 AM
I'm firmly in the "Keep Rozier and re-sign Smart" camp. We can figure out what to do with Rozier in the summer of 2019, but I want us to go for it next year.

Yes, it would be nice to get an asset for Rozier over the summer, but I'd rather see if an Irving/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford lineup with Rozier/Smart/Morris/Theis/(Baynes or Monroe) off the bench can win it all next year
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Green-18 on April 16, 2018, 09:25:32 AM
I'm firmly in the "Keep Rozier and re-sign Smart" camp. We can figure out what to do with Rozier in the summer of 2019, but I want us to go for it next year.

Yes, it would be nice to get an asset for Rozier over the summer, but I'd rather see if an Irving/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford lineup with Rozier/Smart/Morris/Theis/(Baynes or Monroe) off the bench can win it all next year

I lean in favor of keeping both next season but I'm also open to Danny trading Rozier for the right value.  I would be looking for mid 1st round pick and a veteran combo guard in a contract year.  The goal of a deal like this would be to minimize the loss of Rozier for next year, while adding a nice rookie contract that will help us financially when it comes time to give big money to the rest of our core group.  Not sure if we can land this type of return but Danny should definitely try to find it.   
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on April 16, 2018, 09:47:02 AM
I'm firmly in the "Keep Rozier and re-sign Smart" camp. We can figure out what to do with Rozier in the summer of 2019, but I want us to go for it next year.

Yes, it would be nice to get an asset for Rozier over the summer, but I'd rather see if an Irving/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford lineup with Rozier/Smart/Morris/Theis/(Baynes or Monroe) off the bench can win it all next year

This, all day. I think that team is a championship team.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: tonydelk on April 16, 2018, 10:01:15 AM
I understand all arguments for both but I really think this comes down to Terry wanting to be a starter in this league.  He is showing that he is a starter and can hit big time shots.  His value is at its highest and he has opened the eyes of the league.  Scary Terry is becoming a name to know and there will be a lot of teams after him.

Smart on the other hand with his injuries, lack of shooting and bonehead off court issues has lowered his value.   I think the C's keep him because he is vital to the team in his role and he will not command a large salary. 

I could also see Terry playing under the qualifying offer so he can hit unrestricted free agency if he is not traded.  That's two more years of Terry but I don't see him here that long.  If you can secure a top 10 pick for him then you do it. 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on April 17, 2018, 10:24:44 PM
Who wants to go help me hijack a Brinks truck?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Phantom255x on April 17, 2018, 10:25:20 PM
Who wants to go help me hijack a Brinks truck?

Isaiah Thomas volunteers!

 :P
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Larry for 3 on April 17, 2018, 10:34:11 PM
I'm firmly in the "Keep Rozier and re-sign Smart" camp. We can figure out what to do with Rozier in the summer of 2019, but I want us to go for it next year.

Yes, it would be nice to get an asset for Rozier over the summer, but I'd rather see if an Irving/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford lineup with Rozier/Smart/Morris/Theis/(Baynes or Monroe) off the bench can win it all next year

This, all day. I think that team is a championship team.

Love Terry but a lottery pick for this guy would be a great return for this asset
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: nickagneta on April 17, 2018, 11:37:53 PM
I'm firmly in the "Keep Rozier and re-sign Smart" camp. We can figure out what to do with Rozier in the summer of 2019, but I want us to go for it next year.

Yes, it would be nice to get an asset for Rozier over the summer, but I'd rather see if an Irving/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford lineup with Rozier/Smart/Morris/Theis/(Baynes or Monroe) off the bench can win it all next year

This, all day. I think that team is a championship team.

Love Terry but a lottery pick for this guy would be a great return for this asset
Wrong. A lottery pick for 2018 ain't coming off the bench with the proven ability to light it up in the playoffs next year when you're going for a title. The time to trade for picks is over. You own the Sac 2019 pick. You own the Memphis 2019 pick which could end up a top lottery pick in a year or two. You own the LAC 2019 pick. You own all your own picks. You don't need more picks. You need proven young players that can put up 20 PPG in the playoffs. You have that in Rozier. You keep him.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on April 17, 2018, 11:46:18 PM
This unit is slowly proving that Marcus Smart might not be essential after all. 

I'm a Smart fan but it looks like he can be replaced on both ends of the floor. Especially offensively (and his shaky shooting)

Rozier is still not perfect and not a true PG or anything. But he is relentless. Clutch shooter. I don't think I have even seen him breathe hard. 

Team should extend Rozier and hopefully he will provide a home discount 8 to 10 million per season
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: blink on April 17, 2018, 11:55:42 PM
I'm firmly in the "Keep Rozier and re-sign Smart" camp. We can figure out what to do with Rozier in the summer of 2019, but I want us to go for it next year.

Yes, it would be nice to get an asset for Rozier over the summer, but I'd rather see if an Irving/Brown/Hayward/Tatum/Horford lineup with Rozier/Smart/Morris/Theis/(Baynes or Monroe) off the bench can win it all next year

This, all day. I think that team is a championship team.

Love Terry but a lottery pick for this guy would be a great return for this asset
Wrong. A lottery pick for 2018 ain't coming off the bench with the proven ability to light it up in the playoffs next year when you're going for a title. The time to trade for picks is over. You own the Sac 2019 pick. You own the Memphis 2019 pick which could end up a top lottery pick in a year or two. You own the LAC 2019 pick. You own all your own picks. You don't need more picks. You need proven young players that can put up 20 PPG in the playoffs. You have that in Rozier. You keep him.

This all day long, over and over.  Terry is filling in for Kyrie and we are playing great, and he has stepped up big time.  The only thing I worry about with Terry is getting him enough minutes next year once we get kyrie back.  It will be a fun problem.

We should bring as much of this team back as possible.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: CelticsElite on April 18, 2018, 12:32:09 AM
We can't pay everyone. Danny is always thinking 3-4 years ahead. I've come to terms that he will trade rozier for a pick and expiring veteran as someone else mentioned.

The other reason is we have kyrie and will probably be backed up by smart and Larkin. The need for rozier is softened by Hayward and kyrie return. I have a feeling we will lock up both smart and Larkin

Unless danny sees something special in rozier which you never know may be the case

The main goal of trading rozier is to lessen a financial blow by creating cap space,  to get something in return for a guy who we will not have as many available minutes for, and  To get a pick that might make the difference for an Anthony davis bidding war
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Ilikesports17 on April 18, 2018, 01:13:51 AM
I owe Terry an apology. I didn't think he had this in him.

His warts arent quite as bad as I thought and his strengths are better than I recognized. Very very pleased with his development.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: bknova on April 18, 2018, 01:30:57 AM
The reality is someone out there is going to offer Terry a lot of money and we can't afford to pay him.  So we have to trade him and get back an asset.  Smart will be cheaper, so he'll be the one we keep.  Its a numbers game.  Remember there aren't gonna be so many minutes when Hayward gets back.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: keevsnick on April 18, 2018, 01:38:15 AM
So basically the pro Smart crowd used to make the case that we needed to keep Smart because he was the better player. Now they make the case that we need to keep Smart because Rozier is the better player

Rozier is proving to be an extremely clutch shot maker but he still doesn't impact the overall outcome over the course of 30+ minutes in the same way that Marcus does.  I simply believe that Marcus has a larger impact over 50-60 possessions than Rozier.

I'm just not sure this is true. Theres no doubt Marcus is better defensive player, but Rozier is pretty solid in that regard. I think the gap between their offensive abilities is greater than the gap between their defensive abilities, and I truly love the ability to stick Rozier on the floor and spread the offense five out. Now, I think its true that Marcus may be more valuable on a team with more talent than Rozier is, and it may also be true that Rozier will get more money, but my guy tells me to keep the better player, and I think that's Rozier.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Green-18 on April 18, 2018, 08:28:16 AM
So basically the pro Smart crowd used to make the case that we needed to keep Smart because he was the better player. Now they make the case that we need to keep Smart because Rozier is the better player

Rozier is proving to be an extremely clutch shot maker but he still doesn't impact the overall outcome over the course of 30+ minutes in the same way that Marcus does.  I simply believe that Marcus has a larger impact over 50-60 possessions than Rozier.

I'm just not sure this is true. Theres no doubt Marcus is better defensive player, but Rozier is pretty solid in that regard. I think the gap between their offensive abilities is greater than the gap between their defensive abilities, and I truly love the ability to stick Rozier on the floor and spread the offense five out. Now, I think its true that Marcus may be more valuable on a team with more talent than Rozier is, and it may also be true that Rozier will get more money, but my guy tells me to keep the better player, and I think that's Rozier.

I think we are mostly on the same page.  The defensive versatility of Smart carries more weight on a team with Kyrie, Jaylen, Horford, Tatum, and Horford IMO.  It's certainly not an easy call to pick one player over the other. 

My concern about Rozier is his ability to make the same offensive impact in limited minutes.  His game benefits significantly when he has 30+ MPG to establish some sort of rhythm.  The other major question is where does his clutch shooting fit into the equation?  Unfortunately he probably doesn't see the court in closing moments with a healthy team next year.

Your argument is completely fair but I personally want Marcus Smart in a potential series against Houston or Golden State.  Now if you are telling me that Kyrie's health could be a concern in the future then I would rather hedge with Rozier.  It's a tough decision either way.   
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: td450 on April 18, 2018, 09:50:43 AM
I have to admit I was wrong about Rozier. I just did not see him having the decision making skills necessary to be a dependable point guard. Its a testament to Rozier and to Stevens that he's ready to play at this level for the playoffs.

This is going to be almost completely about money, and just how much Ainge wants to roll the dice on next year vs the longer term. Keeping Rozier, even just for next year, will be very expensive. Teams are going to want him, and if we keep him, he's not going to get the minutes he needs. The more success this group has, the more difficult Ainge's job becomes.

What are we going to do with all this talent? Can we ask Brown and Tatum to be happy next year taking 10-12 shots each? How can you ask Marcus Morris to deal with 10 MPG? These are awesome problems to have, but they won't be easy to solve.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on April 18, 2018, 09:57:18 AM
It just took some time regarding Terry

doesn't have the highest bbiq. Not a good passer. But he has become a solid "system" passer that doesn't turn over the ball. 

His left hand dribble has really improved from last season. He has no issues driving with his left now. So it has become tougher for teams to pick him apart

Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on April 18, 2018, 10:08:59 AM
Rozier should be the answer

Lets say Smart was playing and Rozier was out

I doubt we would be up 2-0

Defense would be a little better in some areas but offensviely team wouldn't be as good

Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Green-18 on April 18, 2018, 10:11:29 AM
I have to admit I was wrong about Rozier. I just did not see him having the decision making skills necessary to be a dependable point guard. Its a testament to Rozier and to Stevens that he's ready to play at this level for the playoffs.

This is going to be almost completely about money, and just how much Ainge wants to roll the dice on next year vs the longer term. Keeping Rozier, even just for next year, will be very expensive. Teams are going to want him, and if we keep him, he's not going to get the minutes he needs. The more success this group has, the more difficult Ainge's job becomes.

What are we going to do with all this talent? Can we ask Brown and Tatum to be happy next year taking 10-12 shots each? How can you ask Marcus Morris to deal with 10 MPG? These are awesome problems to have, but they won't be easy to solve.

I can see Kyrie, Hayward, Brown, and Tatum all settling around 30 MPG next year.  Horford could see a potential drop to 27-28 during the regular season.  During blowouts I wouldn't rule out 25 or less.  I also expect Horford's shot attempts to drop even further.  He will become the ultimate facilitator for this group.  The great thing about Al is self awareness and a willingness to put the team first.

This would leave 93 minutes for the rest of the roster.  Smart, Rozier, and Morris could all be somewhere around 25 MPG.

Brad would need to coach this group to play a very fast pace during the regular season.  It's important that everyone gets involved.  Ideally we become a 110+ PPG team like Houston or Golden State.  I think this group is sustainable for at least one season without any gripes over minutes and/or shot attempts.  Rest and injuries will also allow for bench opportunities during the regular season.  Expect Kyrie to miss 10-15 games.  You are right about Rozier potentially being the odd man out though.

Starters:
Kyrie - 30 MPG - 22 PPG
Brown - 30 MPG - 16 PPG
Hayward - 30 MPG - 20 PPG
Tatum - 30 MPG - 16 PPG
Horford - 27 MPG - 10 PPG

Bench:
Smart - 25 MPG - 8 PPG
Rozier - 25 MPG - 10 PPG
Morris - 25 MPG - 11 PPG
Other bigs - 18 MPG



Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: CelticsElite on April 24, 2018, 09:49:19 PM
Any new hot takes lol
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 24, 2018, 10:05:02 PM
not changing my mind

Keep Smart

trade Rozier for best pick possible.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on April 24, 2018, 10:12:53 PM
Rozier is the better player but Smart is uniquely valuable, so it comes down to money, and possibly fit, and what other teams will pay.

You can't go wrong with either one.  Danny has a great problem which is that he hit on both these guys but in really different and unexpected ways.

Ironically Smart was supposed to be Rozier and Rozier was supposed to be Smart....we got em both and now here we are.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: BudweiserCeltic on April 24, 2018, 10:39:52 PM
I prefer Smart over Rozier, nothing about being better or not, but just in general more useful to have. Rozier's role will be quite limited once we're back at full health, and his offensive contributions which may give him the upper hand over Smart will be vastly diminished.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on April 24, 2018, 10:41:15 PM
I could definitely imagine Smart being the guy that more NBA players would rather play with.

I'm not 100% sure he's the guy more coaches and GMs would rather have.

Plus he has to actually be there. On the court. Not nursing a messed up hand.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on April 25, 2018, 10:23:48 AM
Any new hot takes lol

Here's my hot take: In 4 games against the Bucks without Smart, the Celtics allowed 108.25 ppg. In one game with Smart back, the Bucks scored only 87 points.

No, I'm not saying this is all thanks to Marcus Smart, second coming of Bill Russell. But I do believe that there is no way to quantify the psychological effect someone like Marcus has on his teammates by going out and showing what real, full, 100% effort it night in and night out.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on April 25, 2018, 10:34:48 AM
Plan in offseason

-Trade Marcus Morris for prospects/pick
-Sign Smart to a 4 year 12 million per season deal

Keep Rozier for another season and worry about his extension later


I think this is the best way to go, to try to keep both
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: gouki88 on April 25, 2018, 10:39:50 AM
Plan in offseason

-Trade Marcus Morris for prospects/pick
-Sign Smart to a 4 year 12 million per season deal

Keep Rozier for another season and worry about his extension later


I think this is the best way to go, to try to keep both
Why move Morris? He is on an absolute bargain contract and provides way more scoring than Semi will be able to anytime soon.

We shouldn't move a piece that could be crucial to a playoff run when we will likely be looking at contending for a chip in '19
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on April 25, 2018, 10:42:59 AM
Plan in offseason

-Trade Marcus Morris for prospects/pick
-Sign Smart to a 4 year 12 million per season deal

Keep Rozier for another season and worry about his extension later


I think this is the best way to go, to try to keep both
Why move Morris? He is on an absolute bargain contract and provides way more scoring than Semi will be able to anytime soon.

We shouldn't move a piece that could be crucial to a playoff run when we will likely be looking at contending for a chip in '19

yes or no

you want to keep Smart or Morris?

The answer should be easy
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: gouki88 on April 25, 2018, 10:46:21 AM
Plan in offseason

-Trade Marcus Morris for prospects/pick
-Sign Smart to a 4 year 12 million per season deal

Keep Rozier for another season and worry about his extension later


I think this is the best way to go, to try to keep both
Why move Morris? He is on an absolute bargain contract and provides way more scoring than Semi will be able to anytime soon.

We shouldn't move a piece that could be crucial to a playoff run when we will likely be looking at contending for a chip in '19

yes or no

you want to keep Smart or Morris?

The answer should be easy
Why can't we have both? Morris is contracted until 2019
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on April 25, 2018, 10:52:00 AM
Plan in offseason

-Trade Marcus Morris for prospects/pick
-Sign Smart to a 4 year 12 million per season deal

Keep Rozier for another season and worry about his extension later


I think this is the best way to go, to try to keep both
Why move Morris? He is on an absolute bargain contract and provides way more scoring than Semi will be able to anytime soon.

We shouldn't move a piece that could be crucial to a playoff run when we will likely be looking at contending for a chip in '19

yes or no

you want to keep Smart or Morris?

The answer should be easy
Why can't we have both? Morris is contracted until 2019

because cheapie Wyck likely won't pay the luxury tax for non star players (like Smart, Morris)

Morris while has done a good job this season and helped out in the playoffs is a role player at best.  A position that Semi, Tatum (off the bench), Yabu can graduate to
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Fafnir on April 25, 2018, 10:58:33 AM
Since when is Wyc a cheap owner? He paid the luxury tax for 6 straight years when we had KG, we only stopped paying it after Pierce/KG were traded.

If you think Wyc is cheap let me tell you about Gaston and his group...
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Donoghus on April 25, 2018, 10:59:57 AM
Since when is Wyc a cheap owner? He paid the luxury tax for 6 straight years when we had KG, we only stopped paying it after Pierce/KG were traded.

He's not.  This ownership has already proven that they will pay when they have a legit contender on their hands.  I would imagine we'll get more of that in the near future.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on April 25, 2018, 11:01:26 AM
Since when is Wyc a cheap owner? He paid the luxury tax for 6 straight years when we had KG, we only stopped paying it after Pierce/KG were traded.

read your own reply

for KG, PIERCE , ALLEN

not for Eddie House etc.

Horford, Hayward, Irving plus Tatum, Brown are the main core components of this team.  The rest while important ... the point is, wyck is not going to go out of his way to pay luxury tax to keep everybody

So if it came down to keeping Smart or Morris.... Smart should be the choice (team is thin in the pg position anyways)
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Fafnir on April 25, 2018, 11:15:23 AM
Since when is Wyc a cheap owner? He paid the luxury tax for 6 straight years when we had KG, we only stopped paying it after Pierce/KG were traded.

read your own reply

for KG, PIERCE , ALLEN

not for Eddie House etc.
That's not how the tax works, you pay it on everyone. So yes he was paying luxury tax on Eddie's small deal, Poseys, Sheeds, Jermaine O'Neals, Bass, etc.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: nickagneta on April 25, 2018, 11:55:35 AM
Since when is Wyc a cheap owner? He paid the luxury tax for 6 straight years when we had KG, we only stopped paying it after Pierce/KG were traded.

read your own reply

for KG, PIERCE , ALLEN

not for Eddie House etc.
That's not how the tax works, you pay it on everyone. So yes he was paying luxury tax on Eddie's small deal, Poseys, Sheeds, Jermaine O'Neals, Bass, etc.
Absolutely correct. The Celtics are going to get into the tax, most likely next year, but definitely the year after. As long as that team is a contender and having tons of profitable home playoff games and selling tons of merch, ownership will pay the tax. Next year they are a contender so you don't throw away a great bench role player, like Morris, who is on a basement bargain contract, to save a couple million.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Vermont Green on April 25, 2018, 12:18:51 PM
Plan in offseason

-Trade Marcus Morris for prospects/pick
-Sign Smart to a 4 year 12 million per season deal

Keep Rozier for another season and worry about his extension later


I think this is the best way to go, to try to keep both

If the decision is made to sign Smart (which I am all for) and that means having to trade some salary, I would trade Rozier before I traded Morris. 

Rozier is coming on nicely and will be a useful player in the league but he is less useful if you already have Kyrie and Smart, even given the injury history of Irving and Smart.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: tonydelk on April 25, 2018, 12:26:21 PM
Plan in offseason

-Trade Marcus Morris for prospects/pick
-Sign Smart to a 4 year 12 million per season deal

Keep Rozier for another season and worry about his extension later


I think this is the best way to go, to try to keep both

If the decision is made to sign Smart (which I am all for) and that means having to trade some salary, I would trade Rozier before I traded Morris. 

Rozier is coming on nicely and will be a useful player in the league but he is less useful if you already have Kyrie and Smart, even given the injury history of Irving and Smart.

If you are going to trade Rozier this offseason is the best time to do it.  Reason being is the draft is deep and his value will never be higher.  Any time trading for him gets him 1 year on the cheap and his bird rights.  Next year with everyone healthy there will not be very many minutes for him and his value will take a hit.  I like Trozier but would rather have Smart.  Smart has shown what happens to the Defense when he is in the lineup versus out of the lineup. 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on April 25, 2018, 01:09:49 PM
Plan in offseason

-Trade Marcus Morris for prospects/pick
-Sign Smart to a 4 year 12 million per season deal

Keep Rozier for another season and worry about his extension later


I think this is the best way to go, to try to keep both

If the decision is made to sign Smart (which I am all for) and that means having to trade some salary, I would trade Rozier before I traded Morris. 

Rozier is coming on nicely and will be a useful player in the league but he is less useful if you already have Kyrie and Smart, even given the injury history of Irving and Smart.

Nope. I want to keep both Smart and Rozier for insurance

Kyrie health may never be 100 percent. 

Morris is a role player... i dont get the fascination with this guy.

We still have Semi, Yabu, Tatum, Brown, Hayward

Fwd position is loaded

Guard position not so much
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: SHAQATTACK on April 25, 2018, 01:23:41 PM
Plan in offseason

-Trade Marcus Morris for prospects/pick
-Sign Smart to a 4 year 12 million per season deal

Keep Rozier for another season and worry about his extension later


I think this is the best way to go, to try to keep both

If the decision is made to sign Smart (which I am all for) and that means having to trade some salary, I would trade Rozier before I traded Morris. 

Rozier is coming on nicely and will be a useful player in the league but he is less useful if you already have Kyrie and Smart, even given the injury history of Irving and Smart.


Nope. I want to keep both Smart and Rozier for insurance

Kyrie health may never be 100 percent. 

Morris is a role player... i dont get the fascination with this guy.

We still have Semi, Yabu, Tatum, Brown, Hayward

Fwd position is loaded

Guard position not so much
All good points .   BuT ...........

Im for keeping Morris and Theis. ......Morris we need .  We need a enforcer and this one can hurt ya bad with his scoring too . 

We need him to protect Kyrie , and his scoring too.

I also love the moose

We are gonna need ALL the tuff bigs we got to handle Philly

If we make it to Philly , you ll see how i portant Morris and Moose are .   
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Vermont Green on April 27, 2018, 07:52:32 AM
Plan in offseason

-Trade Marcus Morris for prospects/pick
-Sign Smart to a 4 year 12 million per season deal

Keep Rozier for another season and worry about his extension later


I think this is the best way to go, to try to keep both

If the decision is made to sign Smart (which I am all for) and that means having to trade some salary, I would trade Rozier before I traded Morris. 

Rozier is coming on nicely and will be a useful player in the league but he is less useful if you already have Kyrie and Smart, even given the injury history of Irving and Smart.

Nope. I want to keep both Smart and Rozier for insurance

Kyrie health may never be 100 percent. 

Morris is a role player... i dont get the fascination with this guy.

We still have Semi, Yabu, Tatum, Brown, Hayward

Fwd position is loaded

Guard position not so much
If Morris is a role player, what are Semi and Yabu?  I would be fascinated to hear your take.

I view Morris as a big.  He can play some wing in a pinch but that is essentially out of position for him.  Tatum, Brown, and Hayward are wings.  Maybe some day Tatum could be effective as a big but these guys cannot give you what Morris can.

Our established bigs for next season are Morris and Horford.  Baynes, Monroe, Theis may or may not be back and even if they do come back, that is not a great group of players.  I do not consider Semi or Yabu "established" and would not want to bank on them playing pivotal roles on the team next season.

I am not saying that Morris is irreplaceable but based on the projected roster, he plays a thinner position than Rozier.  I don't want to trade Rozier, I like his game and his trajectory, but as it stands right now, I trade him before Morris.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Moranis on April 27, 2018, 09:41:19 AM
Since when is Wyc a cheap owner? He paid the luxury tax for 6 straight years when we had KG, we only stopped paying it after Pierce/KG were traded.

read your own reply

for KG, PIERCE , ALLEN

not for Eddie House etc.
That's not how the tax works, you pay it on everyone. So yes he was paying luxury tax on Eddie's small deal, Poseys, Sheeds, Jermaine O'Neals, Bass, etc.
Absolutely correct. The Celtics are going to get into the tax, most likely next year, but definitely the year after. As long as that team is a contender and having tons of profitable home playoff games and selling tons of merch, ownership will pay the tax. Next year they are a contender so you don't throw away a great bench role player, like Morris, who is on a basement bargain contract, to save a couple million.
the thing is, the repeater tax is awful so pushing the repeater tax back a year is a huge deal.  I'm not saying the C's won't go into the tax this summer, as they might, but if they are close to it, they will do whatever they can to avoid it. 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Moranis on April 27, 2018, 09:42:19 AM
Plan in offseason

-Trade Marcus Morris for prospects/pick
-Sign Smart to a 4 year 12 million per season deal

Keep Rozier for another season and worry about his extension later


I think this is the best way to go, to try to keep both

If the decision is made to sign Smart (which I am all for) and that means having to trade some salary, I would trade Rozier before I traded Morris. 

Rozier is coming on nicely and will be a useful player in the league but he is less useful if you already have Kyrie and Smart, even given the injury history of Irving and Smart.

Nope. I want to keep both Smart and Rozier for insurance

Kyrie health may never be 100 percent. 

Morris is a role player... i dont get the fascination with this guy.

We still have Semi, Yabu, Tatum, Brown, Hayward

Fwd position is loaded

Guard position not so much
If Morris is a role player, what are Semi and Yabu?  I would be fascinated to hear your take.

I view Morris as a big.  He can play some wing in a pinch but that is essentially out of position for him.  Tatum, Brown, and Hayward are wings.  Maybe some day Tatum could be effective as a big but these guys cannot give you what Morris can.

Our established bigs for next season are Morris and Horford.  Baynes, Monroe, Theis may or may not be back and even if they do come back, that is not a great group of players.  I do not consider Semi or Yabu "established" and would not want to bank on them playing pivotal roles on the team next season.

I am not saying that Morris is irreplaceable but based on the projected roster, he plays a thinner position than Rozier.  I don't want to trade Rozier, I like his game and his trajectory, but as it stands right now, I trade him before Morris.
Morris is a role player.  I don't understand why anyone would classify him as anything other than that. 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Vermont Green on April 27, 2018, 10:07:18 AM
Morris is a role player.  I don't understand why anyone would classify him as anything other than that.

Not sure how this became a debate about the semantics of what type of player Morris is.  The question that I originally replied to was if you had to trade one of Rozier or Morris in order to sign Smart, which one would you trade.  I made my case for trading Rozier over Morris if it came down to exactly that choice.

Based on that, it was insinuated that I was fascinated with Morris because I think Morris is not equivalent to Yabusele.  Then I got your condescending reply and that I don't understand what a role player is.  Yikes.  Try to stay on topic people.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: td450 on April 27, 2018, 10:53:01 AM
One thing that stuck out for me watching last night was that Smart and Rozier are awful playing together. Both guys are at their best when they are playing with better players and the ball is moving. When they are in the game together, they stop the ball and start trying to take their defenders off the dribble, and the offense grinds to a halt. All those midseason games where the bench struggles to score came flooding back to me.

Just another reason not to keep both guys.
 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: wdleehi on April 27, 2018, 11:10:04 AM
Watching them play, I keep thinking Smart is the better fit with a healthy Irving and Rozier is a better replacement for when Irving is hurt.   


It still comes down to cost of Smart and trade value of Rozier. 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: nickagneta on April 27, 2018, 08:23:45 PM
One thing that stuck out for me watching last night was that Smart and Rozier are awful playing together. Both guys are at their best when they are playing with better players and the ball is moving. When they are in the game together, they stop the ball and start trying to take their defenders off the dribble, and the offense grinds to a halt. All those midseason games where the bench struggles to score came flooding back to me.

Just another reason not to keep both guys.
Smart also doesn't seem to get Brown and Tatum involved as much as when he was gone. I have seen him waving off both when they have called for the ball over the last two days. If Smart is the reason the Cs defense has played the last two games, he is definitely responsible for how bad the offense has been as well.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: BitterJim on April 27, 2018, 08:45:41 PM
One thing that stuck out for me watching last night was that Smart and Rozier are awful playing together. Both guys are at their best when they are playing with better players and the ball is moving. When they are in the game together, they stop the ball and start trying to take their defenders off the dribble, and the offense grinds to a halt. All those midseason games where the bench struggles to score came flooding back to me.

Just another reason not to keep both guys.
Smart also doesn't seem to get Brown and Tatum involved as much as when he was gone. I have seen him waving off both when they have called for the ball over the last two days. If Smart is the reason the Cs defense has played the last two games, he is definitely responsible for how bad the offense has been as well.

Not much of a surprise that a guy who hasn't played in more than a month isn't on the same page as everyone offensively

I don't know that our offense in games in 5 and 6 was much worse than game 3 and the first half if game 4, though
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on April 28, 2018, 09:27:09 PM
If Marcus Smart were a Sith he'd be Darth Bane when he was a miner.

He can't control the Force but he's extremely strong in it and just has these outbursts. There is no explanation for this player
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on April 28, 2018, 09:29:39 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/6oG0pGTvCeQTe/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: CelticsElite on April 28, 2018, 09:37:37 PM
Rozier with the kyrie bank shot
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: tenn_smoothie on April 28, 2018, 09:43:44 PM
keep them both !!!!

we do want to win some titles, right ?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: BASS_THUMPER on April 28, 2018, 09:52:22 PM
Baynes too

Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: tenn_smoothie on April 28, 2018, 09:59:06 PM
Baynes too

yes
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: nickagneta on April 28, 2018, 10:19:19 PM
Can we just keep both and draft only biggies for like the next 3 years?I think the Celtics are World Champs next year and thats with the following team

Kyrie/Rozier/Kadeem Allen
Jaylen/Smart/Bird
Hayward/Ojeleye/1st round pick
Tatum/Morris/MLE-UFA
Horford/Monroe/Theis
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: tenn_smoothie on April 28, 2018, 10:40:43 PM
Can we just keep both and draft only biggies for like the next 3 years?I think the Celtics are World Champs next year and thats with the following team

Kyrie/Rozier/Kadeem Allen
Jaylen/Smart/Bird
Hayward/Ojeleye/1st round pick
Tatum/Morris/MLE-UFA
Horford/Monroe/Theis

Love this thinking - we do need help inside and I still believe we need a young Kyle Korver type shooter off the bench to get over the hump.

Also, where are Baynes and Larkin on your list?? Both were huge in Game 7 tonite.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: azzenfrost on April 28, 2018, 10:43:14 PM
Pay the tax, Wyc. Keep all of them.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on April 29, 2018, 09:39:18 AM
In the great words of Snoop Dogg  "Can I please get a MFing moment of silence?"

Both these players have improved into their best versions of themselves over the course of this long year.

The Celts have developed them both, and I think maybe in the case of Smart he even had to develop as a person, which is not easy for a young millionaire.

The Celts have earned the right to make the decision on this all the way and either one of them leaving will be painful.

As much as I hate to admit it maybe Terry is a tad more replaceable in the sense that his skill set happens from time to time.

Smart....you just can't find what he does anywhere.

In a vacuum I'd keep Terry and I think he has a little more upside.

In the real world I probably keep Smart at this point.  At least in terms of what we see on the court.

If the present team (without Kyrie) were a bike without Terry you just lost the handlebars.  Without Smart you just lost the chain.

It's gonna come down to money and cap stuff and trade value and whatnot. That's not really my forte.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: tenn_smoothie on April 30, 2018, 09:48:25 PM
How can you not keep them both after what they have done this season ??

How can you not keep everyone that contributed - Just add key draft picks. We need a spot-up knock-down guy from 3 and add help inside. Why trade away a player we can't replace - Remember Kendrick Perkins, Danny. You traded him and spent the next 3 years looking for a center and gave up our one advantage in the process.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on April 30, 2018, 09:56:05 PM
How can you not keep them both after what they have done this season ??

How can you not keep everyone that contributed - Just add key draft picks. We need a spot-up knock-down guy from 3 and add help inside. Why trade away a player we can't replace - Remember Kendrick Perkins, Danny. You traded him and spent the next 3 years looking for a center and gave up our one advantage in the process.
That's a very interesting comparison. Also they lost Powe before they lost Perk. Suddenly a lot of identity was gone
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Eja117 on April 30, 2018, 10:09:37 PM
Here's a question. Are these guys suddenly not as good if Kyrie comes back?

I wonder why that would be.

In that case I think Smart holds his value a little more
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: keevsnick on April 30, 2018, 10:14:45 PM
How can you not keep them both after what they have done this season ??

How can you not keep everyone that contributed - Just add key draft picks. We need a spot-up knock-down guy from 3 and add help inside. Why trade away a player we can't replace - Remember Kendrick Perkins, Danny. You traded him and spent the next 3 years looking for a center and gave up our one advantage in the process.

Cuz you can only keep one long term money wise. And minutes becomes an issue. Dont get me wrong, I probably just roll it back next year. but there are reasons.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: rondofan1255 on May 04, 2018, 05:33:35 PM
Keep both.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: SHAQATTACK on May 04, 2018, 07:03:08 PM
Rozier plus   one of our stars other than Tatum   .....For Leonard ?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: kozlodoev on May 04, 2018, 07:17:31 PM
Here's a question. Are these guys suddenly not as good if Kyrie comes back?

I wonder why that would be.

In that case I think Smart holds his value a little more
They are just as good (with the caveat that sometimes you produce better when you have the chance to get in better rhythm).

There are two things here:
(1) Fewer minutes -> lower exposure -> lower trade value. It's an out of sight, out of mind thing.
(2) We're losing value by putting good players in limited minute roles when we could swap them for similarly good players in positions that we actually need help.

/Capt'n Obvious out.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: hodgy03038 on May 05, 2018, 08:58:33 AM
I would prefer to keep both. If not possible I would try to keep Smart at a reasonable contract and trade Scary Terry for a decent draft pick or in a package for Kawhi. However, I am not sure that would work cap wise to have Al, Gordon & Kyrie and add another similar salary to the mix. That being said, as much as I would hate to trade Kyrie he might be the one that has to be traded for Kawhi and re-sign Terry and Smart.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: rondofan1255 on May 16, 2018, 12:56:39 AM
Keep both until the C’s find out whether Kyrie signs in 2019.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: CelticsElite on May 16, 2018, 01:07:14 AM
Keep both until the C’s find out whether Kyrie signs in 2019.
hard to see why he wouldn’t after seeing this performance without Hayward and Kyrie


He could be part of an all time great team
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: KungPoweChicken on May 16, 2018, 03:35:18 AM
If ownership is willing to spend deep, keep both. Let Brad Stevens figure it out from there.

If ownership is not willing to spend deep, let Smart walk. Keep Rozier as he is the new Jimmy Garoppolo. But unlike Brady, Kyrie can and likely will get injured again. It's probably wise to retain this insurance plan on Kyrie.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: MVPPierceNoJoke on May 16, 2018, 03:36:26 AM
Keep them both and trade Hayward and Irving for AD
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: nickagneta on May 16, 2018, 03:49:51 AM
Keep both until the C’s find out whether Kyrie signs in 2019.
hard to see why he wouldn’t after seeing this performance without Hayward and Kyrie


He could be part of an all time great team
If ownership is willing to spend deep, keep both. Let Brad Stevens figure it out from there.

Been saying this for a while. If Smart resigns at a reasonable deal, you have to jeep both all next year and through the playoffs to help in winning their first title of many or defending their title.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on May 16, 2018, 07:06:16 AM
Keep Smart. Wait and see what Rozier does next season. The way restricted free agency works, as I understand it, the Celtics have the leverage and the odds of losing Rozier for nothing are very slim. It's much more likely that if it turns out he wants more money or a bigger role, the Celtics will have every opportunity to sign and trade.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: The One on May 16, 2018, 08:24:04 AM
I'm keeping Smart.

He just provides what no one else does.

Terry has been great...but Kyrie can give us that plus more.

Marcus is practically irreplaceable...especially in the playoffs.

Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: dreamgreen on May 16, 2018, 08:28:46 AM
I went with Smart even though half the time I want to put him at the end of the bench. I figure he is more versatile and over all should be cheaper to keep. The other part of my logic is Rozier could easily be used as trade bait this off season.

The fact is both are good players in different ways but if our team is healthy next year they will be on the bench watching a LOT more.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: jbpats on May 16, 2018, 08:39:44 AM
At this stage what will Smart command in the open market and at what cost is it 'worth' losing him?

I think he has surpassed the 4 year/10-14 mil per season people are expecting him to be offered.

I think he should/will remain a celtic @ 16mil or below, anything above you have to let him walk.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Moranis on May 16, 2018, 08:46:09 AM
At this stage what will Smart command in the open market and at what cost is it 'worth' losing him?

I think he has surpassed the 4 year/10-14 mil per season people are expecting him to be offered.

I think he should/will remain a celtic @ 16mil or below, anything above you have to let him walk.
Yeah, but what team is going to have the cap space, the need, and will actually want to tie up the money on Smart.  That is always the thing with these type things.  Smart's market won't be that big, but it does take just 1 team, I'm just not sure what that team is.  None of the better teams that will actually have cap space make sense (like his poor shooting isn't a good fit in Philly).  Of the bad teams, very few make sense as reasonable landing spots.  Phoenix might, but probably not if they end up with Doncic.  After that, who are you looking at?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Vermont Green on May 16, 2018, 08:56:27 AM
At this stage what will Smart command in the open market and at what cost is it 'worth' losing him?

I think he has surpassed the 4 year/10-14 mil per season people are expecting him to be offered.

I think he should/will remain a celtic @ 16mil or below, anything above you have to let him walk.
Yeah, but what team is going to have the cap space, the need, and will actually want to tie up the money on Smart.  That is always the thing with these type things.  Smart's market won't be that big, but it does take just 1 team, I'm just not sure what that team is.  None of the better teams that will actually have cap space make sense (like his poor shooting isn't a good fit in Philly).  Of the bad teams, very few make sense as reasonable landing spots.  Phoenix might, but probably not if they end up with Doncic.  After that, who are you looking at?

It is hard to gauge the market for Smart but I don't think he is the type of player that teams are going to overspend for.  Of course, I say that and then it always seems as though some team will overpay (see Portland Trailblazers - Evan Turner).  I predict we sign Smart in the end, keep Rozier but dangle him as a part of larger trade options (such as Leonard) and probably end up just keeping him for now too.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on May 16, 2018, 08:58:41 AM
Look at this defensive highlight at 4:13 on love then pushing Tatum on the switch....just wow

https://youtu.be/CNiN-aE7XUY
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on May 16, 2018, 09:18:43 AM
Look at this defensive highlight at 4:13 on love then pushing Tatum on the switch....just wow

https://youtu.be/CNiN-aE7XUY

lol and TP

Talk about things that don't show up in the box score, Smart is not just a great defender himself but he's coaching on the floor, making sure everyone is where they should be.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: manl_lui on May 16, 2018, 09:19:26 AM
keep both! go into the luxury tax! this team is for real
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on May 16, 2018, 09:29:33 AM
Look at this defensive highlight at 4:13 on love then pushing Tatum on the switch....just wow

https://youtu.be/CNiN-aE7XUY

lol and TP

Talk about things that don't show up in the box score, Smart is not just a great defender himself but he's coaching on the floor, making sure everyone is where they should be.

No mattet how hard Love tried to front Smart...Smart just kept trying to front him.  Love gave up

In a nutshell this series
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: bknova on May 16, 2018, 09:36:31 AM
Smart.  We keep Smart. He'll be cheaper, brings more intangibles, and Terry will bring back more in a trade. 
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: apc on May 16, 2018, 09:38:23 AM
I think Rozier will look for a place he can be a starter.
Marcus knows his place.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on May 16, 2018, 09:39:02 AM
Smart.  We keep Smart. He'll be cheaper, brings more intangibles, and Terry will bring back more in a trade.

Without the two we lose last night

Keep both
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: BitterJim on May 16, 2018, 09:44:51 AM
Look at this defensive highlight at 4:13 on love then pushing Tatum on the switch....just wow

https://youtu.be/CNiN-aE7XUY

lol and TP

Talk about things that don't show up in the box score, Smart is not just a great defender himself but he's coaching on the floor, making sure everyone is where they should be.

There was a play in the 4th quarter where he created a steal, too, he yelled at Horford and pointed, and Horford went right to the spot and got the deflection/steal without even seeing the pass happen. Smart is an amazing defensive anchor
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on May 16, 2018, 10:56:44 AM
defensive highlight at 5:38 ....  OMG.

EDIT: Badly disguised profanity is still profanity. Watch the language

Also putback at 6:08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNiN-aE7XUY&t=255s
God Bless Marcus Smart
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on May 16, 2018, 11:05:02 AM
Look at this defensive highlight at 4:13 on love then pushing Tatum on the switch....just wow

https://youtu.be/CNiN-aE7XUY

lol and TP

Talk about things that don't show up in the box score, Smart is not just a great defender himself but he's coaching on the floor, making sure everyone is where they should be.

There was a play in the 4th quarter where he created a steal, too, he yelled at Horford and pointed, and Horford went right to the spot and got the deflection/steal without even seeing the pass happen. Smart is an amazing defensive anchor

I remember that

Smart is an amazing defender.  Communication, pushing guys to the right spots.  He is rarely out of position
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on May 17, 2018, 12:17:55 AM

Quote
LeBron James likely will dominate NBA free agency talk over the summer, but The King hardly is the only noteworthy player who will be available on the open market in the offseason. Marcus Smart, currently the longest-tenured member of the Boston Celtics, also will be a free agent once the 2017-18 season comes to a close. While Smart isn’t a max-contract type of player, his steady progression and unmatched intangibles likely will result in a large number of suitors. While Celtics fans surely are hoping the tenacious guard would be open to a hometown discount in order to stay in Boston, don’t expect the 24-year-old to be keen on the idea. In a recent interview on ESPN’s “The Hoop Collective” podcast, Jackie MacMullan explained where she expects Smart’s head to be at once he hits free agency. “I’ve talked to lots of people around the Celtics and around the league about Marcus Smart,” MacMullan said, as transcribed by UPROXX. “If Marcus Smart was willing to take a — let’s say Sacramento (Kings) for argument’s sake or another team that isn’t quite good and they offer him $14 million a year and the Celtics say, ‘We can’t pay you that. But we’ll pay you $12 (million).’ My question to them was will Marcus Smart take it because they’re contending, he’s a cult hero in town. Every one of them said, ‘Hell no, he’s going for the money.’ I’ve never asked him this question. But that’s the impression I get. You can’t blame young guys who want to go out to the highest bidder and thinks he should be a starter and he’s not going to be one in Boston for many years to come.” As MacMullan noted, no one could blame Smart for going to the highest bidder, and if he continues to thrive in the postseason for the Celtics, other teams around the league likely will become more willing to offer him a generous deal. Although the C’s surely would love to keep Smart in town for years to come, it’s starting to seem like they’ll face stiff competition in order to do so.

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2018/05/nba-rumors-why-celtics-could-have-trouble-re-signing-marcus-smart/
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: ETNCeltics on May 17, 2018, 12:42:53 AM
I don't care what JM wrote, I can't see MS going to a bad team for marginally more $$$. If he can get $5 or $10M per year more, sure. But a couple million to go lose in Phoenix or Atlanta or Sactown? No way.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on May 17, 2018, 12:45:19 AM
I don't care what JM wrote, I can't see MS going to a bad team for marginally more $$$. If he can get $5 or $10M per year more, sure. But a couple million to go lose in Phoenix or Atlanta or Sactown? No way.

Agreed ...unless he wants to be a starter
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: action781 on May 17, 2018, 02:25:57 PM
Pay the tax, Wyc. Keep all of them.

Wyc isn't going to be paying the tax, the fans are.  And based upon the hike in prices for STH this postseason and next season, it seems that Wyc has already made the decision for us to pay the tax.  And I'm glad that he has.  I want both back.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on May 24, 2018, 12:02:06 AM
I don't know how many times I have flip flopped on this topic

But I choose Rozier after tonights game

Smart after making a nice unexpected 3, just kept chucking it (2 or 3 misses in a row)  ....I wanted to throw something at my tv. He did the same crap in game 4

why does he keep playing roulette like that?
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on May 24, 2018, 08:36:32 AM
I don't know how many times I have flip flopped on this topic

But I choose Rozier after tonights game

Smart after making a nice unexpected 3, just kept chucking it (2 or 3 misses in a row)  ....I wanted to throw something at my tv. He did the same crap in game 4

why does he keep playing roulette like that?

Wanting to keep Rozier is fine but I don't know how you could come to that conclusion after watching last night's game. Rozier was useless for about 90% of the night and shot 3/15 (1/7 from 3). Smart hit some big threes (a rare good shooting night 3/6 from 3, 5/9 overall), made some nice passes and played tough defense all night.

Again, it was just one game and not necessarily representative of their games generally but Marcus had a much, much better night than Rozier.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Sophomore on May 24, 2018, 09:12:44 AM
I don't know how many times I have flip flopped on this topic

But I choose Rozier after tonights game

Smart after making a nice unexpected 3, just kept chucking it (2 or 3 misses in a row)  ....I wanted to throw something at my tv. He did the same crap in game 4

why does he keep playing roulette like that?

Wanting to keep Rozier is fine but I don't know how you could come to that conclusion after watching last night's game. Rozier was useless for about 90% of the night and shot 3/15 (1/7 from 3). Smart hit some big threes (a rare good shooting night 3/6 from 3, 5/9 overall), made some nice passes and played tough defense all night.

Again, it was just one game and not necessarily representative of their games generally but Marcus had a much, much better night than Rozier.

Last night was a pretty off game for Rozier. Just not himself - like Brown, something was off.

One other thing. It seems like playoff basketball is more and more about finding the weak matchup on the other team and exploiting it. The Cs pick on Love when we can. LeBron tries to get switched onto Rozier. And so it goes in the other series as well. When Marcus was in the game, there was no weak link to go after. It's ridiculous what he can do on defense. If he can keep his intensity level right so that he doesn't do dumb things on offense, he's a special asset for playoff basketball. Baynes-Horford-Smart and two of Tatum, Brown, Morris was just a stone wall for Cleveland's bigs-heavy lineup.

Maybe we don't *need* Marcus Smart next year, but I think his skillset will be more needed. With Hayward and Irving back in the mix we should have enough scoring and shot creation. We will need another defender and ballhandler, and Smart is almost unique in his ability to be a defensive swiss army knife. Watching him stone Tristan Thompson in the paint last night was hilarious.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on May 24, 2018, 09:30:36 AM
I don't know how many times I have flip flopped on this topic

But I choose Rozier after tonights game

Smart after making a nice unexpected 3, just kept chucking it (2 or 3 misses in a row)  ....I wanted to throw something at my tv. He did the same crap in game 4

why does he keep playing roulette like that?

Wanting to keep Rozier is fine but I don't know how you could come to that conclusion after watching last night's game. Rozier was useless for about 90% of the night and shot 3/15 (1/7 from 3). Smart hit some big threes (a rare good shooting night 3/6 from 3, 5/9 overall), made some nice passes and played tough defense all night.

Again, it was just one game and not necessarily representative of their games generally but Marcus had a much, much better night than Rozier.

Last night was a pretty off game for Rozier. Just not himself - like Brown, something was off.

One other thing. It seems like playoff basketball is more and more about finding the weak matchup on the other team and exploiting it. The Cs pick on Love when we can. LeBron tries to get switched onto Rozier. And so it goes in the other series as well. When Marcus was in the game, there was no weak link to go after. It's ridiculous what he can do on defense. If he can keep his intensity level right so that he doesn't do dumb things on offense, he's a special asset for playoff basketball. Baynes-Horford-Smart and two of Tatum, Brown, Morris was just a stone wall for Cleveland's bigs-heavy lineup.

Maybe we don't *need* Marcus Smart next year, but I think his skillset will be more needed. With Hayward and Irving back in the mix we should have enough scoring and shot creation. We will need another defender and ballhandler, and Smart is almost unique in his ability to be a defensive swiss army knife. Watching him stone Tristan Thompson in the paint last night was hilarious.

Rozier started off cold but he had zero turnovers in the 2nd half I believe.  2 huge steals. 2 nice assists. Terrific mid range bucket  to keep the momentum going

Vs Smart

Chucking 2 threes in a row at the worst moment of the game. Cavs could have turned it around quickly if buckets were made.

I mean he just chucked it without care
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Vermont Green on May 24, 2018, 09:48:55 AM
I am amazed how people can watch the same game and come to such differing conclusions (I suspect that confirmation bias is at play).  What I saw was Smart clearly making a bigger impact on game 5 than Rozier.  On the offensive end, the offense ran better when Smart was in control.  The ball got to where it needed to go and when he took his shot opportunities, he converted at least as efficiently as anyone else on the court.

But his real impact came on the defensive end.  He was sagging, switching, manning up, doing it all.  He had an impact on every aspect of the team defense when he was on the court.  You have to watch to see how many times it was Smart that rotated to either double or get back to an open man.  He was the guy that was reading everyone else, identifying the soft spot, and closing down where it was most needed. 

Far bigger impact than Rozier in this game.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Big333223 on May 24, 2018, 09:52:21 AM
I don't know how many times I have flip flopped on this topic

But I choose Rozier after tonights game

Smart after making a nice unexpected 3, just kept chucking it (2 or 3 misses in a row)  ....I wanted to throw something at my tv. He did the same crap in game 4

why does he keep playing roulette like that?

Wanting to keep Rozier is fine but I don't know how you could come to that conclusion after watching last night's game. Rozier was useless for about 90% of the night and shot 3/15 (1/7 from 3). Smart hit some big threes (a rare good shooting night 3/6 from 3, 5/9 overall), made some nice passes and played tough defense all night.

Again, it was just one game and not necessarily representative of their games generally but Marcus had a much, much better night than Rozier.

Last night was a pretty off game for Rozier. Just not himself - like Brown, something was off.

One other thing. It seems like playoff basketball is more and more about finding the weak matchup on the other team and exploiting it. The Cs pick on Love when we can. LeBron tries to get switched onto Rozier. And so it goes in the other series as well. When Marcus was in the game, there was no weak link to go after. It's ridiculous what he can do on defense. If he can keep his intensity level right so that he doesn't do dumb things on offense, he's a special asset for playoff basketball. Baynes-Horford-Smart and two of Tatum, Brown, Morris was just a stone wall for Cleveland's bigs-heavy lineup.

Maybe we don't *need* Marcus Smart next year, but I think his skillset will be more needed. With Hayward and Irving back in the mix we should have enough scoring and shot creation. We will need another defender and ballhandler, and Smart is almost unique in his ability to be a defensive swiss army knife. Watching him stone Tristan Thompson in the paint last night was hilarious.

Rozier started off cold but he had zero turnovers in the 2nd half I believe.  2 huge steals. 2 nice assists. Terrific mid range bucket  to keep the momentum going

Vs Smart

Chucking 2 threes in a row at the worst moment of the game. Cavs could have turned it around quickly if buckets were made.

I mean he just chucked it without care

Smart had zero turnovers all game and was 3/6 from 3 while Rozier was 1/7.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: BitterJim on May 24, 2018, 10:17:12 AM
I don't know how many times I have flip flopped on this topic

But I choose Rozier after tonights game

Smart after making a nice unexpected 3, just kept chucking it (2 or 3 misses in a row)  ....I wanted to throw something at my tv. He did the same crap in game 4

why does he keep playing roulette like that?

Wanting to keep Rozier is fine but I don't know how you could come to that conclusion after watching last night's game. Rozier was useless for about 90% of the night and shot 3/15 (1/7 from 3). Smart hit some big threes (a rare good shooting night 3/6 from 3, 5/9 overall), made some nice passes and played tough defense all night.

Again, it was just one game and not necessarily representative of their games generally but Marcus had a much, much better night than Rozier.

Last night was a pretty off game for Rozier. Just not himself - like Brown, something was off.

One other thing. It seems like playoff basketball is more and more about finding the weak matchup on the other team and exploiting it. The Cs pick on Love when we can. LeBron tries to get switched onto Rozier. And so it goes in the other series as well. When Marcus was in the game, there was no weak link to go after. It's ridiculous what he can do on defense. If he can keep his intensity level right so that he doesn't do dumb things on offense, he's a special asset for playoff basketball. Baynes-Horford-Smart and two of Tatum, Brown, Morris was just a stone wall for Cleveland's bigs-heavy lineup.

Maybe we don't *need* Marcus Smart next year, but I think his skillset will be more needed. With Hayward and Irving back in the mix we should have enough scoring and shot creation. We will need another defender and ballhandler, and Smart is almost unique in his ability to be a defensive swiss army knife. Watching him stone Tristan Thompson in the paint last night was hilarious.

Rozier started off cold but he had zero turnovers in the 2nd half I believe.  2 huge steals. 2 nice assists. Terrific mid range bucket  to keep the momentum going

Vs Smart

Chucking 2 threes in a row at the worst moment of the game. Cavs could have turned it around quickly if buckets were made.

I mean he just chucked it without care

Smart taking 6 threes and shooting 50% on them is chucking, but Rozier taking 7 and hitting 14% on them isn't?

Rozier didn't start off cold, he started off frozen solid and never warmed up. He missed more shots in a row (12) than Smart took all game (9).

Smart chucks shots a lot, but I don't know how anyone could look at last night'night's game and come away thinking that Smart was chucking and Rozier wasn't (unless they went in to the game thinking Smart was gonna be a chucked and Rozier wasn't, and then won't change their mind even in the face of overwhelming evidence)
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Sophomore on May 24, 2018, 10:29:35 AM
I don't know how many times I have flip flopped on this topic

But I choose Rozier after tonights game

Smart after making a nice unexpected 3, just kept chucking it (2 or 3 misses in a row)  ....I wanted to throw something at my tv. He did the same crap in game 4

why does he keep playing roulette like that?

Wanting to keep Rozier is fine but I don't know how you could come to that conclusion after watching last night's game. Rozier was useless for about 90% of the night and shot 3/15 (1/7 from 3). Smart hit some big threes (a rare good shooting night 3/6 from 3, 5/9 overall), made some nice passes and played tough defense all night.

Again, it was just one game and not necessarily representative of their games generally but Marcus had a much, much better night than Rozier.

Last night was a pretty off game for Rozier. Just not himself - like Brown, something was off.

One other thing. It seems like playoff basketball is more and more about finding the weak matchup on the other team and exploiting it. The Cs pick on Love when we can. LeBron tries to get switched onto Rozier. And so it goes in the other series as well. When Marcus was in the game, there was no weak link to go after. It's ridiculous what he can do on defense. If he can keep his intensity level right so that he doesn't do dumb things on offense, he's a special asset for playoff basketball. Baynes-Horford-Smart and two of Tatum, Brown, Morris was just a stone wall for Cleveland's bigs-heavy lineup.

Maybe we don't *need* Marcus Smart next year, but I think his skillset will be more needed. With Hayward and Irving back in the mix we should have enough scoring and shot creation. We will need another defender and ballhandler, and Smart is almost unique in his ability to be a defensive swiss army knife. Watching him stone Tristan Thompson in the paint last night was hilarious.

Rozier started off cold but he had zero turnovers in the 2nd half I believe.  2 huge steals. 2 nice assists. Terrific mid range bucket  to keep the momentum going

Vs Smart

Chucking 2 threes in a row at the worst moment of the game. Cavs could have turned it around quickly if buckets were made.

I mean he just chucked it without care

Smart taking 6 threes and shooting 50% on them is chucking, but Rozier taking 7 and hitting 14% on them isn't?

Rozier didn't start off cold, he started off frozen solid and never warmed up. He missed more shots in a row (12) than Smart took all game (9).

Smart chucks shots a lot, but I don't know how anyone could look at last night'night's game and come away thinking that Smart was chucking and Rozier wasn't (unless they went in to the game thinking Smart was gonna be a chucked and Rozier wasn't, and then won't change their mind even in the face of overwhelming evidence)

Agree with this. I'm a fan of both Rozier and Smart, but last night TR was just off - he's played much better and I think/hope that he will again.

I didn't like Smart's last couple of threes either - I was screaming at my TV - but overall his offense was good and his defense was exceptional. One of Smart's better games this playoff run, and he made a number of very important contributions. Even the biggest Rozier fan must be able to see how different it is when LeBron switches on to Terry vs switching onto Marcus. Night and day. And Marcus was a beast getting around picks and getting into shooters. Play after play he did great things. It's a joke he's not all-NBA defense. Just a joke.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: nickagneta on May 24, 2018, 10:36:11 AM
Most of Smart's 3 point shots last night(I believe 5) were about 4-5 feet beyond the 3 point line and 2-3 shots were not in the flow of the offense, so I can understand an argument that that is chucking. That he made 3 is just good fortune.

Glad he finally had a positive effect offensively. We needed it with Rozier's and Brown's poor shooting nights.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: feckless on May 24, 2018, 11:15:07 AM
Most of Smart's 3 point shots last night(I believe 5) were about 4-5 feet beyond the 3 point line and 2-3 shots were not in the flow of the offense, so I can understand an argument that that is chucking. That he made 3 is just good fortune.

Glad he finally had a positive effect offensively. We needed it with Rozier's and Brown's poor shooting nights.

This is what I saw also.  Yes Marcus had a better game last night than Terry but some of that is because he made shots that were in truth poor choices not in the flow of the offense.  Terry took some bad shots also but many that he missed were in the flow of the offense.  On the game thread someone was complaining that Brad was playing Rozier with Marcus sitting -- in my mind that is because Rozier even when having a poor game follows the game plan.  Marcus pounds the ball let's the clock run down then is forced to take a bad shot. Think about the end of periods when Marcus is in there is he really the one who should be going one on one, but when he is in there he always takes it upon himself and?   Marcus for all his strengths just plays too much the hero on offense--for my taste.  Terry generally follows the game plan.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on May 24, 2018, 01:45:51 PM
Most of Smart's 3 point shots last night(I believe 5) were about 4-5 feet beyond the 3 point line and 2-3 shots were not in the flow of the offense, so I can understand an argument that that is chucking. That he made 3 is just good fortune.

Glad he finally had a positive effect offensively. We needed it with Rozier's and Brown's poor shooting nights.

This is what I saw also.  Yes Marcus had a better game last night than Terry but some of that is because he made shots that were in truth poor choices not in the flow of the offense.  Terry took some bad shots also but many that he missed were in the flow of the offense.  On the game thread someone was complaining that Brad was playing Rozier with Marcus sitting -- in my mind that is because Rozier even when having a poor game follows the game plan.  Marcus pounds the ball let's the clock run down then is forced to take a bad shot. Think about the end of periods when Marcus is in there is he really the one who should be going one on one, but when he is in there he always takes it upon himself and?   Marcus for all his strengths just plays too much the hero on offense--for my taste.  Terry generally follows the game plan.

I agree with this.  Marcus Smart is Mr. Wildcard for better or for worse

For game 4 he really killed the momentum by chucking those 2 , 3s. Celtics could have cut the lead down to about 6-7 if more "care" was taken and simple plays were executed.

game 5, there was no need to take those 2 threes in the 2nd half and give the Cavs any kind of life.  CBS agreed and yanked him from the game

CBS may have an open system (for offense) but Smart needs to set a limit on how many 3s he can take.  3 or 4 max a game.  Take analytics into play
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Sophomore on May 25, 2018, 08:36:18 AM
We all know Smart is up and down, but the eye test told me that he has been better for the Cs offense than Terry in this series. On the main site, Alex Kungu says the numbers tell the same story:

"On the offensive end, the team is averaging a 110.8 offensive rating when [Smart is] on the court versus a 100.2 offensive rating when Rozier is on the court. Smart is only behind James in this series in assist percentage (33.7) and leads the series in assist ratio which measures the percentage of a team’s possessions that have an assist when that player is on the court."

Terry isn't performing to the same level as in the past two series - maybe George Hill's height is bothering him? Hopefully he will turn it around. It's also true that even though Marcus seems to make a handful of bad passes and heat-check threes every game, and those really stand out in memory, he also makes a lot of good passes and most of the time works to get the team into its offense.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Vermont Green on May 25, 2018, 09:03:45 AM
"On the offensive end, the team is averaging a 110.8 offensive rating when [Smart is] on the court versus a 100.2 offensive rating when Rozier is on the court. Smart is only behind James in this series in assist percentage (33.7) and leads the series in assist ratio which measures the percentage of a team’s possessions that have an assist when that player is on the court."

Great Stats.  I am more of an eye test guy than a stats guy but this is consistent with what I saw in Game 5.  To me, we got better shots overall when Smart was playing.  It is a tough playoff series so everyone ends up taking some bad looking shots at the end of the shot clock but I feel Smart has been good overall.

Be careful with assist stats though.  You can have the Rondo effect where one guy does rack up a lot of assists but it is at the detriment to the overall flow of the game.  The quoted stats address both these factors.  Smart's assist percentage (relates to Smart's individual stats) is high at 33.7% but the assist ratio stat which measures the number of team assists when the player is on the court is also high.

To me, that does not constitute "pounding the ball" but it is a fine line.  Marcus is a steady all around contributor, Rozier has become a streak shooter who is being exploited on defense.  Both have demonstrated the clutch factor.  There is not a huge difference but I like Smart.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: feckless on May 25, 2018, 09:53:46 AM
Am I wrong or is Marcus, even after a strong game 5, still shooting 23% from three point range & 34% on field goals, for the playoffs?  Marcus for a change shot well in game 5, despite his too many "heat checks".  Someone needs to convince Marcus that he can be the hero on defense and play team ball on offense, meaning that contrary to what he thinks, Marcus is seldom our best option at the offensive end.  It also means he needs to push the ball ( instead of walking it up) and make quicker passes instead of pounding it and looking for a home run pass every time.

Did you guys forget game 3?  Marcus was 2-9 fg and 0-4 3pt>
Or Game 4 when he was 2-8 and 1-5 with 5 turnovers?

Game 4 Rozier shot 40% and 33% with 11 assists and 0 turnovers?
?Who is it that is playing better on the road?



Hopefully Smart makes his poor choice shots again and hopefully Rozier finds his stroke- we need both to play well, to win on the road.
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: rondofan1255 on May 25, 2018, 11:04:18 PM
Hoping both play better on Sunday!
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: Tr1boy on May 25, 2018, 11:05:08 PM
Hoping both play better on Sunday!

Rozier played amazing. Not Smart
Title: Re: Keep Smart or Rozier (merged threads) Poll
Post by: rondofan1255 on May 25, 2018, 11:07:37 PM
Hoping both play better on Sunday!

Rozier played amazing. Not Smart

Oops, should have said both Marcuses!