CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: jbpats on October 25, 2017, 09:49:49 AM
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13 points, 13 boards and 5 dimes.. more importantly completely shut down Kristaps defensively, a player who was averaging 31 points heading into the game last night.
I feel like people are hard on Horford around here, so I think it's nice to point out the things he does that go beyond the box score once in a while.
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Really should be "how about a LOT of Horford appreciation"? he does all the little things (and big things) you need on a winning team
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Guy has always been a winner.. He is definitely the glue.. Love watching him.
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Yes Horford is the glue and he does so many things that winning teams need. He's not flashy and doesn't put up 20 pts every night so some don't appreciate him. I sure as hell do.
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Heard somewhere, podcast maybe, that essentially Horford gets better / more effective as his role gets smaller. In other words... his "superstar skill" is like being a role player. It's a weird concept to try to communicate, but basically, if he's a primary offensive option, he won't be what you need. If he's an afterthought on offense, it's like he's a superstar.
I've though about how, if you want a winning team, you need your superstar players of course, and role players who know their roles. But you also need to maximize the number of guys you have who will just do the right thing every time, from making a crisp pass to switching on D and so on. Horford does the right thing all the time - it's really nothing in isolation, but in aggregate that stuff makes a big difference.
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But we should trade him for Vucevic, I thought ...
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Thanks for all you do, Al.
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Heard somewhere, podcast maybe, that essentially Horford gets better / more effective as his role gets smaller. In other words... his "superstar skill" is like being a role player. It's a weird concept to try to communicate, but basically, if he's a primary offensive option, he won't be what you need. If he's an afterthought on offense, it's like he's a superstar.
I've though about how, if you want a winning team, you need your superstar players of course, and role players who know their roles. But you also need to maximize the number of guys you have who will just do the right thing every time, from making a crisp pass to switching on D and so on. Horford does the right thing all the time - it's really nothing in isolation, but in aggregate that stuff makes a big difference.
I believe this is the definition of 'double-edged sword.' Of course we all love what Horford does to make the offense and defense click, but that contract is so exorbitant that it will be hard to add other star (or re-sign our own) players if he is already making superstar money. Even the ultimate glue guys make nowhere near what he does.
I was ecstatic when we signed Horford and am still very happy to have him on our team. He is a perfect mentor for our young players, does all the right things on and off the court, but all of us agree that Brown and Tatum need to take the leap for this team to have a chance at contending. That shouldn't necessarily be the case when you have three legit max level players.
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Heard somewhere, podcast maybe, that essentially Horford gets better / more effective as his role gets smaller. In other words... his "superstar skill" is like being a role player. It's a weird concept to try to communicate, but basically, if he's a primary offensive option, he won't be what you need. If he's an afterthought on offense, it's like he's a superstar.
I've though about how, if you want a winning team, you need your superstar players of course, and role players who know their roles. But you also need to maximize the number of guys you have who will just do the right thing every time, from making a crisp pass to switching on D and so on. Horford does the right thing all the time - it's really nothing in isolation, but in aggregate that stuff makes a big difference.
I believe this is the definition of 'double-edged sword.' Of course we all love what Horford does to make the offense and defense click, but that contract is so exorbitant that it will be hard to add other star (or re-sign our own) players if he is already making superstar money. Even the ultimate glue guys make nowhere near what he does.
I was ecstatic when we signed Horford and am still very happy to have him on our team. He is a perfect mentor for our young players, does all the right things on and off the court, but all of us agree that Brown and Tatum need to take the leap for this team to have a chance at contending. That shouldn't necessarily be the case when you have three legit max level players.
Horford is similar to Draymond Green. They are both superstars in their ability to play with other stars and do all the little things really well.
For instance, if Draymond Green was not running pick-and-rolls with Curry, Durant, and Thompson, then he would add very little offensively. He is elite in his ability to take advantage of quick pick-and-rolls with his vision, but he would not have those opportunities if it weren't for Curry, Thompson, and Durant.
If you really break down his game, he is bad in every other way offensively. He is not great at creating his own shot or driving, unless he is attacking closeouts on the pass. He is not a good post up guy. He is not a good outside shooter.
Of course, he would likely still be a great defensive player if he weren't next to Curry, but he might not have as much confidence or nasty on that side of the ball without his fit offensively.
In that sense, I think Horford is similar. He is a better shooter than Green, both from mid-range and three. He is a better post up player. I think he is a better passer, although Green has better stats. But Green is a legit defensive MVP. Horford is good defensivley, but not even close to that.
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He makes everyone else better.
Horford helps bring individuals together and makes them play as a team.
Horford is the one who makes Stevens' system work. It needs a passing big man in that high post to run the offense through. Olynyk did it well. Sully did it well. Things (ball movement, teamwork) went downhill fast whenever CBS did not have a passing big (Zeller, Bass) on the floor to facilitate his offense. Beyond the passing, Horford helps his teammates with his jump-shooting and floor spacing ability. He pulls shot blockers out of the paint which enables his teammates to attack the paint easier. His screens are important too. Frees his teammates. Gives them more space to work with. That is what Horford does.
He enables his teammates to be their best selves. Not 65% of their best or 80-90% of their best. But 100% of their best self on the basketball court. He gives them more time and space (opportunities). This raises their number of opportunities to attack and efficiency in attacking because they get the ball in better situations to attack.
Then there is the defense. He is so versatile on defense because of his speed, agility, size and strength. Horford is big enough and strong enough to defend players bigger than him in the post. He has the footspeed and defensive nous to defend face up bigs. To stay in front of them and stop them driving to the hoop while staying in position to contest shots (versus staying a few feet further back from them to defend the hoop, giving them shot). Horford has the quickness on defensive rotations to close out on shooters. He makes timely defensive rotations. Especially on the interior. He does a solid job protecting the basket with his positioning, timing and length. His speed and agility helps him in transition defense and most importantly in PnR defense. He switches very well onto smaller players for a center. Horford is a plus defender in all of these individual areas to help his team. To avoid forcing his teammates to cover him in any area. While being able to help cover them in team defense areas (PnR, transition, switches, interior rotations, shot blocking, closing out on perimeter shooters).
That is what Horford does = he makes everyone else better. He enables them to get the most out of their own talents.
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Heard somewhere, podcast maybe, that essentially Horford gets better / more effective as his role gets smaller. In other words... his "superstar skill" is like being a role player. It's a weird concept to try to communicate, but basically, if he's a primary offensive option, he won't be what you need. If he's an afterthought on offense, it's like he's a superstar.
I've though about how, if you want a winning team, you need your superstar players of course, and role players who know their roles. But you also need to maximize the number of guys you have who will just do the right thing every time, from making a crisp pass to switching on D and so on. Horford does the right thing all the time - it's really nothing in isolation, but in aggregate that stuff makes a big difference.
I believe this is the definition of 'double-edged sword.' Of course we all love what Horford does to make the offense and defense click, but that contract is so exorbitant that it will be hard to add other star (or re-sign our own) players if he is already making superstar money. Even the ultimate glue guys make nowhere near what he does.
I was ecstatic when we signed Horford and am still very happy to have him on our team. He is a perfect mentor for our young players, does all the right things on and off the court, but all of us agree that Brown and Tatum need to take the leap for this team to have a chance at contending. That shouldn't necessarily be the case when you have three legit max level players.
Horford is similar to Draymond Green. They are both superstars in their ability to play with other stars and do all the little things really well.
For instance, if Draymond Green was not running pick-and-rolls with Curry, Durant, and Thompson, then he would add very little offensively. He is elite in his ability to take advantage of quick pick-and-rolls with his vision, but he would not have those opportunities if it weren't for Curry, Thompson, and Durant.
If you really break down his game, he is bad in every other way offensively. He is not great at creating his own shot or driving, unless he is attacking closeouts on the pass. He is not a good post up guy. He is not a good outside shooter.
Of course, he would likely still be a great defensive player if he weren't next to Curry, but he might not have as much confidence or nasty on that side of the ball without his fit offensively.
In that sense, I think Horford is similar. He is a better shooter than Green, both from mid-range and three. He is a better post up player. I think he is a better passer, although Green has better stats. But Green is a legit defensive MVP. Horford is good defensivley, but not even close to that.
I would also add that signing Horford to a max deal was a no-brainer. You don't offer him the max, he probably doesn't come to Boston. Then what? We'd still be talking about, can Boston sign free agents. Plus that was money we had to throw somewhere.
Also, when jambr380 says, "even the ultimate glue guys make nowhere near what he does..." Horford IS the ultimate glue guy. I think he's a better role player than anyone in the league.
In an NBA where players get offered ridiculous contracts all the time, you need to spend that money on a guy like Al. I don't think it's a double-edge sword - I think it's that Al Horford is the rare excellent, max-level guy (albeit at the tale of his prime) who is elite in categories that don't jump off the page and are therefore difficult to quantify.
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I appreciate what Horford brings to this team...
... still probably not worthy of a max contract though :P
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I'll just leave this here:
http://www.celticslife.com/2017/06/al-horford-proved-his-worth-in.html
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I appreciate what Horford brings to this team...
... still probably not worthy of a max contract though :P
There are 37 players in the NBA who make over 20 mil dollars per season. Horford salary is currently 11th highest at $27 mil. Based on my rankings there are 14 players on that list who are clearly better and more deserving than Horford, 5 who I say are equivalent talent wise and 17 who are no way better than he. By this logic I would say his contract is fair in todays NBA.
Stephen Curry, PG better
LeBron James, SF better
Paul Millsap, PF equal
Gordon Hayward, SF better
Blake Griffin, PF better
Kyle Lowry, PG equal
Mike Conley, PG equal
Russell Westbrook, PG better
James Harden, SG better
DeMar DeRozan, SG better
Al Horford, C
Carmelo Anthony, SF worse
Damian Lillard, PG better
Jrue Holiday, PG worse
Kevin Durant, SF better
Otto Porter Jr., SF worse
Chris Paul, PG equal
CJ McCollum, SG worse
Bradley Beal, SG worse
Anthony Davis, PF better
Dwight Howard, C worse
Chandler Parsons, SF worse
Harrison Barnes, SF worse
JJ Redick, SG worse
Brook Lopez, C worse
Marc Gasol, C better
DeAndre Jordan, C better
Kevin Love, PF equal
Steven Adams, C worse
Giannis Antetokounmpo, SF better
Nicolas Batum, SG worse
Rudy Gobert, C better
LaMarcus Aldridge, PF worse
Victor Oladipo, SG worse
Danilo Gallinari, SF worse
Serge Ibaka, PF worse
George Hill, PG worse
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Great game last night. Great defense, he fought for tough rebounds, and he found guys for easy buckets.
He's the embodiment of the "makes everyone better" cliche.
He also seems like a nice guy.
And he's handsome.
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There is one big man in the league better than him. Marc Gasol.
That's it... And yes, he is better than Anthony Davis.
Jokic is right there in the rearview mirror though...
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The man carried us to the Eastern Conference Finals his first year here, He elevated us to the 3rd or 4th best team in the league.
He elevates everyone's game around him, most notably IT... and is a Can Do It All Player.
The wins speak for themselves. The Playoffs performance speaks for itself.
Anyone who questions his worth is a darn foolish fellow.
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The man carried us to the Eastern Conference Finals his first year here, He elevated us to the 3rd or 4th best team in the league.
He elevates everyone's game around him, most notably IT... and is a Can Do It All Player.
The wins speak for themselves. The Playoffs performance speaks for itself.
Anyone who questions his worth is a darn foolish fellow.
This. I don't understand how anyone could watch the whole playoff run last season and question Horford's value.
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Das Glue guy.
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We've been a lot better once he arrived.
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Horford is our Timmy. Makes everyone better , does everything good. I actually felt he was MVP last year over IT
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We've been a lot better once he arrived.
that sums it up. Totally professional .
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The man carried us to the Eastern Conference Finals his first year here, He elevated us to the 3rd or 4th best team in the league.
He elevates everyone's game around him, most notably IT... and is a Can Do It All Player.
The wins speak for themselves. The Playoffs performance speaks for itself.
Anyone who questions his worth is a darn foolish fellow.
This. I don't understand how anyone could watch the whole playoff run last season and question Horford's value.
Those are people who only look at his stat sheet and never watch how he impact games. I read somewhere that the team's offensive rating dips 20% worse without him.
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There is one big man in the league better than him. Marc Gasol.
That's it... And yes, he is better than Anthony Davis.
Jokic is right there in the rearview mirror though...
While it is a personal choice, I must highly recommend saying no to drugs. They can make an individual say all kinds of crazy insane things!
:P
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The man carried us to the Eastern Conference Finals his first year here, He elevated us to the 3rd or 4th best team in the league.
He elevates everyone's game around him, most notably IT... and is a Can Do It All Player.
The wins speak for themselves. The Playoffs performance speaks for itself.
Anyone who questions his worth is a darn foolish fellow.
Horford didn't carry us to the ECF...
Without Bradley's play on Jimmy Butler through the entire bulls series, we would not have made it past the first round.
That said he was a big part of our success, no denying that.
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But we should trade him for Vucevic, I thought ...
Yes please, I would be OK with this.
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Horford's about as awesome as a player can get without actually being a superstar. Like an elite glue guy.
Spend some time during games just watching Al run around- where he goes, what his instincts are, how he contributes to plays without touching the ball. It's really fun to watch. And he seems to be moving better so far this year.
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Horford's about as awesome as a player can get without actually being a superstar. Like an elite glue guy.
Spend some time during games just watching Al run around- where he goes, what his instincts are, how he contributes to plays without touching the ball. It's really fun to watch. And he seems to be moving better so far this year.
He does look a lot better this year mobility wise, but that could have a lot to do with it being early in the year and his still being relatively fresh. Still, it's a good sign which I'm happy to see. He's defense is the one thing that I'd say has been consistently excellent so far.
My issue (for lack of a better word) with Horford is that this far he has been horribly inconsistent, and you just don't know what you're going to get from him between one day and the next.
One day he'll give you 18, 11 and 6. The next day he'll give you 6, 5 and 8. The next game he'll give you 9, 7 and 3.
One day he'll shut down Porzingis, next day. Kevin Love will drop 25 on him.
When he's on his game he can be a difference maker, when he's not sometimes you forget he's even in the floor because he just dissapears entirely.
When he's at his best he's an all star Calibre player for sure, but when he's at his worst he doesn't even look worthy of a starting spot...and he's at his worst far too often for a $27m man.
Let's hope he can prove me wrong and show me consistency this year, but so far he's still been pretty all over the place.
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The man carried us to the Eastern Conference Finals his first year here, He elevated us to the 3rd or 4th best team in the league.
He elevates everyone's game around him, most notably IT... and is a Can Do It All Player.
The wins speak for themselves. The Playoffs performance speaks for itself.
Anyone who questions his worth is a darn foolish fellow.
Horford didn't carry us to the ECF...
Without Bradley's play on Jimmy Butler through the entire bulls series, we would not have made it past the first round.
That said he was a big part of our success, no denying that.
Horford was our MVP the Bulls series... he was vastly more productive and efficient then Bradley, the counting stats and advanced stats all favor Al by quite a bit.
Al had 60/54/85 shooting splits for the series... and led our team in assists and rebounds, pretty ridiculous.
Guarding Jimmy butler was great but it was definitely a team effort.
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Horford's about as awesome as a player can get without actually being a superstar. Like an elite glue guy.
Spend some time during games just watching Al run around- where he goes, what his instincts are, how he contributes to plays without touching the ball. It's really fun to watch. And he seems to be moving better so far this year.
He does look a lot better this year mobility wise, but that could have a lot to do with it being early in the year and his still being relatively fresh. Still, it's a good sign which I'm happy to see. He's defense is the one thing that I'd say has been consistently excellent so far.
My issue (for lack of a better word) with Horford is that this far he has been horribly inconsistent, and you just don't know what you're going to get from him between one day and the next.
One day he'll give you 18, 11 and 6. The next day he'll give you 6, 5 and 8. The next game he'll give you 9, 7 and 3.
One day he'll shut down Porzingis, next day. Kevin Love will drop 25 on him.
When he's on his game he can be a difference maker, when he's not sometimes you forget he's even in the floor because he just dissapears entirely.
When he's at his best he's an all star Calibre player for sure, but when he's at his worst he doesn't even look worthy of a starting spot...and he's at his worst far too often for a $27m man.
Let's hope he can prove me wrong and show me consistency this year, but so far he's still been pretty all over the place.
How has he been all over the place? He almost always plays pretty well, and you seem to be completely forgetting about the effect he has when he is on the court. Also keep in mind that the NBA has had a massive shift in the last 4 years and now a Shooting / Passing big man is far far more valuable than one who Rebounds and scores 2PT FGs.
Last season Al was 2nd among all Power Forwards and Centers in APG. This has a profoundly positive effect on your team when your Center is a great passer. The 5 APG are no small feat by a big man in this league. Also, Al was among the best 3 point shooting bigs to go along with being the best passing big.
There is a reason the Celtics went from the 5th seed to the 1st seed... from 1st Round Exit to ECF. Nothing really changed on our team except we added Al and he helped ignite IT with elite floor spacing and passing for a big man.
So when Dwight Howard gets 22 rebounds and 18 points but his team loses again because he provides zero spacing and zero play creation... are you telling me those 22 rebounds are more important? They aren't. They simply are not. Teams are trending away from caring about rebounds. They mean way less then having a skilled big space the floor.
Al is a rare big. There are not many who have his range and vision. I would say maybe only Marc Gasol, and possibly someone I am unaware of.
Al is worth every penny of his max!
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Horford's defense has been outstanding to start the year.
People were sad about losing Bradley and Crowder for defense, but the best two defenders on the team are still here (Smart and Horford).
He also does extremely well setting and running the pick and roll. I think he was great last game shooting from 3 more too. As long as he is shooting 3's to keep the defense honest, I will be happy having him as the rock for the team all year.
He will never get the credit he deserves but hopefully we all appreciate him.
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My intention is obviously not to turn this topic into a 'Horford is God' reaction after every game, but obviously the man excelled again last night.
Thought it was interesting, Reggie Miller called out how Kyrie is elevating Horfords game, and I think I have to agree. Don't want to turn this into a Kyrie vs. IT discussion, but from what I've seen of Kyrie I feel his court awareness is so much greater than IT's and based on this small sample size of games thus far I feel he does have the ability to get the most out of Horfords skill set.
Needless to say, only a few games in and they are a strong 1-2 punch.
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Horford is a solid team player. He's not a stats guy. I don't hear Warriors fans complaining about Draymond's pedestrian stats.
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Horford is a solid team player. He's not a stats guy. I don't hear Warriors fans complaining about Draymond's pedestrian stats.
Because he avgs nearly a triple double.
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Horford is a solid team player. He's not a stats guy. I don't hear Warriors fans complaining about Draymond's pedestrian stats.
Because he avgs nearly a triple double.
Last year Dray averaged 10/8/7. Last year Horford averaged 14/7/5.
I think Draymond is an excellent player. I'm only making the case that Horford's stats don't show his true contribution.
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There is one big man in the league better than him. Marc Gasol.
That's it... And yes, he is better than Anthony Davis.
Jokic is right there in the rearview mirror though...
While it is a personal choice, I must highly recommend saying no to drugs. They can make an individual say all kinds of crazy insane things!
:P
I can see how you would think that. I just think playmaking in bigmen is STILL massively underrated by the league.. and rebounding fractionally overrated. I get that Davis and Towns are "better", I just want my bigman on a championship team to be good, really good, at three things - passing, decision-making/playmaking.
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Guy has stepped up this year. Let's hope we see it consistently. Props
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Al is the single most important player on this team right now. Brad's entire offensive system functions because of Horford's versatility. Scal made a great point last night about the importance of making the right plays and reads every time down the court. Al doesn't always stand out but his value is in his ability to make the right plays on both ends of the court for 30+ mpg.
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It is a joy to watch Al play every night.
EVERY night.
Not to mention the joy I get from him proving my point about sabermetric nuts.
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He certainly had a masterpiece of a game last night.
I really wish he'd become more aggressive offensively. He has a nice post up game, a good mid-range shot, and a very good 3 for a big man. There are just too many games where he only takes 7 or 8 shots. He's too good of a player for that to happen. Offensively, he's one of the most complete big men in the league.
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Seems like Brad is just figuring out how to get the most of out Al this season. Not sure if this has anything to do with the Kyrie/IT substitution, or just a natural progression.
His inside offensive game has gotten more efficient. He is rebounding better (is it the Baynes effect, perhaps?)
Al particularly on defense continues to impress me. He was stellar vs. Giannis, especially the first half. And vs. Porzingis, he really frustrated that kid.
To me, Al is one of the most underappreciated players in the NBA, including by his own fan base.
He is the prototype player we should try to draft with our next high pick, for an orderly transition of this team. The modern game really suits his style. I am really starting to appreciate the fact that we signed him up.
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It is a joy to watch Al play every night.
EVERY night.
Not to mention the joy I get from him proving my point about sabermetric nuts.
What point?
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Speaking of "sabermetrics" (is it 1989 already?) NBA Math has these neat visualizations of TPA (total points added) by team members. It's a flawed stat, they all are, plus small sample, yada yada, but here's ours:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNJXIKxVAAEyAgg.jpg)
Al's pretty clearly coming out as the best player on the team so far. Kyrie's a close second and has surprisingly scored as a positive contributor on defense too, with Rozier 3rd.
BTW, here's what Milwaukee looks like haha:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNJXZoxV4AIIAXd.jpg:large)
A bunch of mediocrity then Giannis as the pushpin holding up the upper-right corner.
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Come on folks, do we have more believers around here?
Through the first 11 games Horford is the ONLY player in the NBA to have a postiive +/- in every game played.
He is on another level this season, arguably the defensive player of the year up to this point and to me the real 'on the court' reason the Celtics are playing at this level.
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No.
He couldn a hit lastnight >:(
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Love Horford. It's obvious that, as good as the connection between Teague and Horford, Schroeder and Horford, and Thomas and Horford all were, the connection between Horford and Irving is even better. Both guys have a great feel for the game and one another.
His shooting and rebounding will likely regress down to the mean, and his blocks will likely regress up to the mean. I still think he will have a career shooting year though.
He makes the game easy for Tatum and Brown. He helps Smart to make positive offensive plays once in a while. I'm hopeful that Rozier will eventually figure out how to work with him too.
With Hayward's feel for the game, just image how Irving, Horford, and Hayward would have worked together to get great shots.