CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: billysan on October 20, 2017, 09:29:30 AM
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With the emerge of Jason Tatum as a starter at the 4 has Marcus Morris lost his starting job? Actually I think they can Co exist very well as starting forwards. I like Jaylen Brown at the 2 better than as a 3 although he does well there. I wonder what Brad has up his sleeve when Marcus returns?
I am putting in my 2 cents for Nerlens Noel now as an injury replacement for Hayward if we qualify. I think he is a good roster fit and will help immensely if he's not a headache. Apparently Dallas doesn't feel like home but Boston just might give him the love he needs lol.
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He signed the big contract, who are you trading for him?
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No.
Getting Tatum a lot of minutes at PF was fine when Hayward was there.
But he isn't. Get Tatum as many minutes at his natural position as possible. Which means Morris is still useful at the 4.
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Since Noel signed the QO, he'd have to give up his birdrights to come here. We're over the cap so we have to create cap space to resign him this offseason. It'd be INCREDIBLY hard to do that so he'd likely be a 1 season rental.
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He signed the big contract, who are you trading for him?
What big contract are you talking about?
Noel refused the big contract offer from Dallas and instead signed to play this year on their Qualifying Offer, which is only 4.2M.
I assume that billysan's notion is that we could trade Marcus Morris' 5M contract for him. Per CBA trade financials, that would work. Dallas might even be interested in that.
There are some issues in the way of the notion, though.
First off, the reason Noel is playing on the QO is that it means that he will become an Unrestricted Free Agent this coming summer.
Second, again because he is playing on the QO, if Noel is traded this season, the team that gets him will not have Bird Rights. They will take two more years with that team to vest.
Third, because his Bird Rights would not transfer, Noel has right of refusal on the trade.
Now, if the Celtics were due to be well below the salary cap or had a large enough exception available next summer that they could go ahead and sign Noel without Bird Rights, then trading for him would make sense. He'd probably OK the trade (the Celtics being a team he would likely approve going to) and they would pull the trigger.
But they won't have cap room and they will only have the mid-level-exception, which is well below the level of money that Noel is looking for.
This means that if we did this trade, we would lose Noel to free agency in the summer.
Even if Noel long-term WANTS to be a Celtic, it would actually NOT be in his interest to approve such a trade (unless he's willing to play for a well-under-market deal for a couple of seasons). He'd be better served to just play out the QO and reach UFA status but with Dallas holding his Bird Rights. That would not only mean that Dallas could potentially pay him more, but it would also potentially enable them to sign & trade him to another team that might be over the cap. 'Not saying that is the most likely thing, but it simply increases his options, which is good for his market value.
Short version: Purely for technical reasons, Nerlens Noel is almost certainly not a mid-season trade option for the Celtics.
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No.
Getting Tatum a lot of minutes at PF was fine when Hayward was there.
But he isn't. Get Tatum as many minutes at his natural position as possible. Which means Morris is still useful at the 4.
I think PF is Tatum's natural position. The way he looks solid in that slot similar to Jabari the first two games has me thinking that way at least.
*knocks on wood after bringing up Parker*
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Since Noel signed the QO, he'd have to give up his birdrights to come here. We're over the cap so we have to create cap space to resign him this offseason. It'd be INCREDIBLY hard to do that so he'd likely be a 1 season rental.
Not quite. We'd be able to resign him for up to 120% of his 2017-18 salary, but there's no way he signs for $5 million after the contract he turned down this summer. And I'd expect him to decline any trade to a team that isn't willing/able to sign him to a big contract long term (since he effectively has a no trade clause this season)
Edit: As mmmmm mentioned above we could also sign him with the mid-level exception, which would be about $8.5 million. Still not a salary he would consider.
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I don't think it is worth a useful player who's signed for two years given we won't be in a position to resign Nerlens if we trade for him given his lack of bird rights in that scenario.
I would like to have him on Boston, but not as a one year rental.
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I'm under the impression the new starting five will be:
Irving/Rozier
Brown/Smart
Tatum/Semi
Morris/Theis
Horford/Baynes
When Morris is ready.
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I'm under the impression the new starting five will be:
Irving/Rozier
Brown/Smart
Tatum/Semi
Morris/Theis
Horford/Baynes
When Morris is ready.
Yes, that lineup is offering itself to be the 1st five.
Some experience in to let Smart help the bench.
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Of course we need to give Morris a couple of months to learn Stevens' schemes and I am hoping for the best from him, but now am not as confident in his fit as I was a couple of months ago.
If he doesn't work out, I would look into a trade with the Grizzlies for JaMychal Green. He makes a bit more money ($8.53M) so somebody like Larkin would need to be included to make salaries work, but Green seems like a perfect fit for the Cs with his length to play and defend both forward positions, his ability to knock down the 3, and he also doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective.
Hopefully a trade isn't necessary and Morris can adjust his game to fit into what Stevens is trying to do - we certainly could use his scoring and he also can play both forward positions (I see no issue with his fit with Tatum).
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Noel goes against everything DA and BS are trying to do; get guys that can score.
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He signed the big contract, who are you trading for him?
What big contract are you talking about?
Noel refused the big contract offer from Dallas and instead signed to play this year on their Qualifying Offer, which is only 4.2M.
I assume that billysan's notion is that we could trade Marcus Morris' 5M contract for him. Per CBA trade financials, that would work. Dallas might even be interested in that.
There are some issues in the way of the notion, though.
First off, the reason Noel is playing on the QO is that it means that he will become an Unrestricted Free Agent this coming summer.
Second, again because he is playing on the QO, if Noel is traded this season, the team that gets him will not have Bird Rights. They will take two more years with that team to vest.
Third, because his Bird Rights would not transfer, Noel has right of refusal on the trade.
Now, if the Celtics were due to be well below the salary cap or had a large enough exception available next summer that they could go ahead and sign Noel without Bird Rights, then trading for him would make sense. He'd probably OK the trade (the Celtics being a team he would likely approve going to) and they would pull the trigger.
But they won't have cap room and they will only have the mid-level-exception, which is well below the level of money that Noel is looking for.
This means that if we did this trade, we would lose Noel to free agency in the summer.
Even if Noel long-term WANTS to be a Celtic, it would actually NOT be in his interest to approve such a trade (unless he's willing to play for a well-under-market deal for a couple of seasons). He'd be better served to just play out the QO and reach UFA status but with Dallas holding his Bird Rights. That would not only mean that Dallas could potentially pay him more, but it would also potentially enable them to sign & trade him to another team that might be over the cap. 'Not saying that is the most likely thing, but it simply increases his options, which is good for his market value.
Short version: Purely for technical reasons, Nerlens Noel is almost certainly not a mid-season trade option for the Celtics.
No, actually I was thinking we could use part of the 8 million or so in space generated by the injured player roster excepton. We need to apply for it first and the NBA will have to decide if we merit it. If I understand it, we should because Hayward will be out for all or nearly all of this season.
His salary would easily fit and I would send a few mid level 1st picks and maybe a bench player to. Dallas.
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He signed the big contract, who are you trading for him?
What big contract are you talking about?
Noel refused the big contract offer from Dallas and instead signed to play this year on their Qualifying Offer, which is only 4.2M.
I assume that billysan's notion is that we could trade Marcus Morris' 5M contract for him. Per CBA trade financials, that would work. Dallas might even be interested in that.
There are some issues in the way of the notion, though.
First off, the reason Noel is playing on the QO is that it means that he will become an Unrestricted Free Agent this coming summer.
Second, again because he is playing on the QO, if Noel is traded this season, the team that gets him will not have Bird Rights. They will take two more years with that team to vest.
Third, because his Bird Rights would not transfer, Noel has right of refusal on the trade.
Now, if the Celtics were due to be well below the salary cap or had a large enough exception available next summer that they could go ahead and sign Noel without Bird Rights, then trading for him would make sense. He'd probably OK the trade (the Celtics being a team he would likely approve going to) and they would pull the trigger.
But they won't have cap room and they will only have the mid-level-exception, which is well below the level of money that Noel is looking for.
This means that if we did this trade, we would lose Noel to free agency in the summer.
Even if Noel long-term WANTS to be a Celtic, it would actually NOT be in his interest to approve such a trade (unless he's willing to play for a well-under-market deal for a couple of seasons). He'd be better served to just play out the QO and reach UFA status but with Dallas holding his Bird Rights. That would not only mean that Dallas could potentially pay him more, but it would also potentially enable them to sign & trade him to another team that might be over the cap. 'Not saying that is the most likely thing, but it simply increases his options, which is good for his market value.
Short version: Purely for technical reasons, Nerlens Noel is almost certainly not a mid-season trade option for the Celtics.
No, actually I was thinking we could use part of the 8 million or so in space generated by the injured player roster excepton. We need to apply for it first and the NBA will have to decide if we merit it. If I understand it, we should because Hayward will be out for all or nearly all of this season.
His salary would easily fit and I would send a few mid level 1st picks and maybe a bench player to. Dallas.
I am not sure if you totally read mmmmm's explanation. You are willing to send a 'few' mid-level 1sts and a rotation player for a player we have absolutely no chance of re-signing after this season. If we were fighting for a championship, that would be on thing, but doing this would only deplete our assets in the hopes that we win a couple more playoff games than we otherwise would have.
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This has been said here and in other threads. Noel can veto any trade this year. The reason he can veto any trade is because the team acquiring him would NOT acquire his Bird rights. Noel’s Bird rights are incredibly important to him, as he’s hoping to leverage them into a contract for $17-20 million per year next summer. There is a 0% chance he’d be willing to waive his right of refusal to go to any team that didn’t have the cap room to sign him next year (and probably he wouldn’t waive them in that case either).
The Noel ship has sailed, if it was ever at the docks to begin with.
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He would help our frontline but he is not a great offensive player by any stretch. He can't spread the floor and would clog up our offense even more than Baynes does folks.
I can't wait for Morris to get back he will help us quite a bit in the absence of Hayward.
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Thanks for explaining about his Bird Rights. I felt like we might be able to create a little more cap space and I didn't realize he wanted 17-20 million per year. I was thinking we could really sign him for around 12 per as I don't think he has established that kind of value. Not sure he is going to get 20 per but you are right in saying he would likely not be an option for us.
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I'm under the impression the new starting five will be:
Irving/Rozier
Brown/Smart
Tatum/Semi
Morris/Theis
Horford/Baynes
When Morris is ready.
This is what I was wondering as one of the original points of the thread. Can Morris be versatile enough along with Tatum to start them together? I think it's an awesome lineup for this season until Hayward comes back next season. Then he would need to start and who goes to the bench?
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I'm under the impression the new starting five will be:
Irving/Rozier
Brown/Smart
Tatum/Semi
Morris/Theis
Horford/Baynes
When Morris is ready.
This is what I was wondering as one of the original points of the thread. Can Morris be versatile enough along with Tatum to start them together? I think it's an awesome lineup for this season until Hayward comes back next season. Then he would need to start and who goes to the bench?
I too think it's a good lineup for this season, not worrying about next season yet, a lot can change by then.
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When is Morris going to be ready? First they said he'd miss the first 3 games and today I read this....
Marcus Morris (knee) did some on-court work on Saturday.
He is expected to be re-evaluated in a week or so.
A week or so?
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When is Morris going to be ready? First they said he'd miss the first 3 games and today I read this....
Marcus Morris (knee) did some on-court work on Saturday.
He is expected to be re-evaluated in a week or so.
A week or so?
Don’t know what you’re reading, but this was from the Celtics twitter feed an hour ago:
Stevens says Marcus Morris (knee) is "getting in better shape ... He'll be reevaluated hopefully this weekend." #NEBHInjuryReport
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When is Morris going to be ready? First they said he'd miss the first 3 games and today I read this....
Marcus Morris (knee) did some on-court work on Saturday.
He is expected to be re-evaluated in a week or so.
A week or so?
Don’t know what you’re reading, but this was from the Celtics twitter feed an hour ago:
Stevens says Marcus Morris (knee) is "getting in better shape ... He'll be reevaluated hopefully this weekend." #NEBHInjuryReport
I prefer your source. I got this from Rotoworld and the source was Scott Souza on Twitter
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I don't see how Noel helps the C's. He's be an extra body next to Baynes and Theis. If the Cs need anything, it's a wing that can help score off the bench.
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I don't see how Noel helps the C's. He's be an extra body next to Baynes and Theis. If the Cs need anything, it's a wing that can help score off the bench.
Noel isn’t happening, but Baynes played 14 minutes last night thanks to foul trouble and Theis, while potentially useful, can certainly be upgraded from. There’s room for an additional big and/or a better one.
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Since Noel signed the QO, he'd have to give up his birdrights to come here. We're over the cap so we have to create cap space to resign him this offseason. It'd be INCREDIBLY hard to do that so he'd likely be a 1 season rental.
Not quite. We'd be able to resign him for up to 120% of his 2017-18 salary, but there's no way he signs for $5 million after the contract he turned down this summer. And I'd expect him to decline any trade to a team that isn't willing/able to sign him to a big contract long term (since he effectively has a no trade clause this season)
Edit: As mmmmm mentioned above we could also sign him with the mid-level exception, which would be about $8.5 million. Still not a salary he would consider.
To be honest, I don't have any problem with signing Noel to a big contract and taking a gamble on him.
He's actually playing some outstanding basketball for the Mavs so far, averaging 11.5 Points, 8.5 rebounds, 2 steals and 2 blocks (100% FG, 83% FT) over their first two games - and he's doing that in only 23.5 MPG.
And this is from a kid who is 6'11" with a 7'4" wingspan yet has the speed and agility of a wing. The upside on this kid as a defender and rebounder is immense - his skill set is a perfect compliment for Al Horford right now, and would be a perfect compliment for Jayson Tatum if he moves permanently into the PF spot moving forward.
He might never be selected to an All-Star team (though it's not out of the question) but he could very easily become an elite defensive anchor (A Gobert / Chandler / Whiteside / DJ type) - and those guys have proven to be major difference makers for their teams in the past.
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I don't see how Noel helps the C's. He's be an extra body next to Baynes and Theis. If the Cs need anything, it's a wing that can help score off the bench.
Baynes is a very nice backup centre who cannot play more than about 20 MPG due to chronic foul trouble (>5 fouls per 36 for his career) and Theis so far has looked like he's a 3rd string big at best.
Horford has a history of injury problems and isn't getting any younger, and Tatum is an inexperienced rookie who is arguably playing out of position.
If we obtain a bit like Noel, then we have Brown, Tatum, Smart and Morris who can all play major minutes at that SF spot as needed...but if Tatum, Morris, Baynes or Horford miss significant time we have very little in the way of usable depth at those positions.
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I love Nerlens Noel but he doesn't fit our offense and I wouldn't trade for a player we can't resign. A sign and trade for him in the off-season is a long shot but a possibility I suppose.
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I don't see how Noel helps the C's. He's be an extra body next to Baynes and Theis. If the Cs need anything, it's a wing that can help score off the bench.
Baynes is a very nice backup centre who cannot play more than about 20 MPG due to chronic foul trouble (>5 fouls per 36 for his career) and Theis so far has looked like he's a 3rd string big at best.
Horford has a history of injury problems and isn't getting any younger, and Tatum is an inexperienced rookie who is arguably playing out of position.
If we obtain a bit like Noel, then we have Brown, Tatum, Smart and Morris who can all play major minutes at that SF spot as needed...but if Tatum, Morris, Baynes or Horford miss significant time we have very little in the way of usable depth at those positions.
He's missed 13 games last 3 years. We counting his peck issue from 6-7 years ago which also happened during the shortened season so ATL just shut him down?
Al is probably one of the most readily available big men in the league last few years. He's had 1 issue his entire career which he had surgery to fix.
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I love Nerlens Noel but he doesn't fit our offense and I wouldn't trade for a player we can't resign. A sign and trade for him in the off-season is a long shot but a possibility I suppose.
Might be a good basketball player but all indications are he's not the best human being. He doesn't fit the Celtics profile of good community member. It's very clear Brad wants certain kind of men playing for him.
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I don't see how Noel helps the C's. He's be an extra body next to Baynes and Theis. If the Cs need anything, it's a wing that can help score off the bench.
Baynes is a very nice backup centre who cannot play more than about 20 MPG due to chronic foul trouble (>5 fouls per 36 for his career) and Theis so far has looked like he's a 3rd string big at best.
Horford has a history of injury problems and isn't getting any younger, and Tatum is an inexperienced rookie who is arguably playing out of position.
If we obtain a bit like Noel, then we have Brown, Tatum, Smart and Morris who can all play major minutes at that SF spot as needed...but if Tatum, Morris, Baynes or Horford miss significant time we have very little in the way of usable depth at those positions.
He's missed 13 games last 3 years. We counting his peck issue from 6-7 years ago which also happened during the shortened season so ATL just shut him down?
Al is probably one of the most readily available big men in the league last few years. He's had 1 issue his entire career which he had surgery to fix.
Well, two. His left and right pectorals both tore during different seasons. He's been remarkably healthy outside of those two injuries, though
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Since Noel signed the QO, he'd have to give up his birdrights to come here. We're over the cap so we have to create cap space to resign him this offseason. It'd be INCREDIBLY hard to do that so he'd likely be a 1 season rental.
Not quite. We'd be able to resign him for up to 120% of his 2017-18 salary, but there's no way he signs for $5 million after the contract he turned down this summer. And I'd expect him to decline any trade to a team that isn't willing/able to sign him to a big contract long term (since he effectively has a no trade clause this season)
Edit: As mmmmm mentioned above we could also sign him with the mid-level exception, which would be about $8.5 million. Still not a salary he would consider.
To be honest, I don't have any problem with signing Noel to a big contract and taking a gamble on him.
He's actually playing some outstanding basketball for the Mavs so far, averaging 11.5 Points, 8.5 rebounds, 2 steals and 2 blocks (100% FG, 83% FT) over their first two games - and he's doing that in only 23.5 MPG.
And this is from a kid who is 6'11" with a 7'4" wingspan yet has the speed and agility of a wing. The upside on this kid as a defender and rebounder is immense - his skill set is a perfect compliment for Al Horford right now, and would be a perfect compliment for Jayson Tatum if he moves permanently into the PF spot moving forward.
He might never be selected to an All-Star team (though it's not out of the question) but he could very easily become an elite defensive anchor (A Gobert / Chandler / Whiteside / DJ type) - and those guys have proven to be major difference makers for their teams in the past.
It doesn't matter what you, or me, or Danny, or Wyc are willing to pay him. We do not have the ability to sign him without him either taking a massive, massive pay cut (not gonna happen) or making major roster changes (ie trading Horford or Hayward for nothing, or in a S&T). We're over the cap and can't get his bird rights because he signed the QO
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When is Morris going to be ready? First they said he'd miss the first 3 games and today I read this....
Marcus Morris (knee) did some on-court work on Saturday.
He is expected to be re-evaluated in a week or so.
A week or so?
Don’t know what you’re reading, but this was from the Celtics twitter feed an hour ago:
Stevens says Marcus Morris (knee) is "getting in better shape ... He'll be reevaluated hopefully this weekend." #NEBHInjuryReport
I prefer your source. I got this from Rotoworld and the source was Scott Souza on Twitter
Morris is a week or so away from returning, per Twitter. He’s targeting the Spurs game next Monday, but is still only doing non-contact drills at this point. So we’ll see.
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What if he were to receive a call from an anonymous individual with an ear to the celtics organization that said word has it if you sign on a one year deal with us in 2018, tomorrow has it Danny would be willing to give you x y z in 2019. He also respects loyalty and the way players feel is that wouldn't trade you again in 2018 and would give a no trade clause. Could we pay what he was worth in 2019?
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I hoping Pistons didn't drop,a turd on us.
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What if he were to receive a call from an anonymous individual with an ear to the celtics organization that said word has it if you sign on a one year deal with us in 2018, tomorrow has it Danny would be willing to give you x y z in 2019. He also respects loyalty and the way players feel is that wouldn't trade you again in 2018 and would give a no trade clause. Could we pay what he was worth in 2019?
No for many reasons, first of all is who on earth would believe Danny respects loyalty?
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What if he were to receive a call from an anonymous individual with an ear to the celtics organization that said word has it if you sign on a one year deal with us in 2018, tomorrow has it Danny would be willing to give you x y z in 2019. He also respects loyalty and the way players feel is that wouldn't trade you again in 2018 and would give a no trade clause. Could we pay what he was worth in 2019?
No for many reasons, first of all is who on earth would believe Danny respects loyalty?
Probably the "anonymous individual".