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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Phantom255x on October 10, 2017, 09:32:50 PM

Title: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Phantom255x on October 10, 2017, 09:32:50 PM
The rumor was originally "Isaiah, Crowder, Lakers Pick" for most Irving trade rumors at the end of July and most of August. Even that was considered a slight overpay on Boston's part.

Then the deal happens, and it's "IT4, Crowder, 2018 Nets Pick, AND Zizic"  :o

I've obviously let known what my initial thoughts on the trade were (and I'm sure I've annoyed a ton of people in the process LOL), but what baffles me is how Zizic was added to what already was an overpay.

Seems like Zizic was just a "throw-in" in this deal, and that's ridiculous because many experts said that in this previous draft (2017 NBA Draft), Zizic would likely have been a Top-10 pick (or at least a lottery one).

So far, in 3 preseason games (and yes, I'm aware, it's only preseason):

10/4 vs. Atlanta Hawks: 4 points (3/5 shooting), 6 rebounds, 1 block (12 minutes)
10/6 vs. Indiana Pacers: 1 point, 1 rebound, 2 blocks (12 minutes)
10/8 vs. Washington Wizards: 7 points (2/3 shooting), 7 rebounds, 1 block (23 minutes)

Not too shabby. Struggled against Indiana but had 2 blocks in that game, and in the other 2 games had 6-7 rebounds with a block added too.

I think Zizic was slightly overhyped to begin with (like he wasn't a unicorn like Jokic as some on here said or anything like that), but still thought he could grow into a solid player (fringe starter who rebounds very well too).

Instead he goes to Cleveland and now Cleveland has two huge assets to potentially cash in on (either short term via trade, or long term assuming Lebron leaves).

And I know injuries happen, but now with Baynes likely out for a bit, suddenly our depth at center looks really, really thin again. Welp.

I understand Isaiah's injury played a part in all of this, but according to many reports, NO other team came close to what Boston was offering.

Zizic could have been used in another trade for another star to pair with Irving/Hayward and maybe Horford. Instead now the treasure chest is a lot thinner than it needed to be, with the Celtics still 1 star away from legitimately contending (IMHO).
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: pearljammer10 on October 10, 2017, 09:43:57 PM
Based on those preseason numbers I don't find it all that ridiculous.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: jambr380 on October 10, 2017, 09:44:35 PM
I also didn't like his inclusion, but it's possible it was required. Look at how long the deal was held up over a mid-2nd round pick.

I am not too worried about him growing into a superstar; he is just too limited for that. He could go on to have a very solid career, though, and it is possible that he could have been used as another trade chip in the future. Nobody seems to be banging down our door for Nader or Bird.

My hope is that we will remain contenders for a number of years and will consistently acquire  equally (or better) talented big men via vet min and/or buy-out all of those contending years. Zizic will take time develop, regardless.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Ogaju on October 10, 2017, 09:45:25 PM
this is why I do not like the multiple players for one player trades for the team giving up multiple players. The team that gets multiple payers has its risks spread out more favorably, than the team that get just one player.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: CelticsElite on October 10, 2017, 09:48:17 PM
The cavs euro scout is ziggy. I can see zizic ironically playing like ziggy
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: A Future of Stevens on October 10, 2017, 09:49:43 PM
Atleast we don't have to worry about Zubac being better than Zizic lol.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Phantom255x on October 10, 2017, 09:50:22 PM
this is why I do not like the multiple players for one player trades for the team giving up multiple players. The team that gets multiple payers has its risks spread out more favorably, than the team that get just one player.

Yep, that's how I feel. This deal helps CLE short AND long term, while it only helps Boston long term basically. Giving them Crowder in addition was also tough because Crowder actually helps them a ton on the wing, but Zizic could be that underrated guy who kills us (b/c you know, every game there's always that unexpected guy who torches us because why the eff not  ::) )

I also didn't like his inclusion, but it's possible it was required. Look at how long the deal was held up over a mid-2nd round pick.

I am not too worried about him growing into a superstar; he is just too limited for that. He could go on to have a very solid career, though, and it is possible that he could have been used as another trade chip in the future. Nobody seems to be banging down our door for Nader or Bird.

My hope is that we will remain contenders for a number of years and will consistently acquire  equally (or better) talented big men via vet min and/or buy-out all of those contending years. Zizic will take time develop, regardless.

Agree that Zizic will take time, but man we could definitely use him now with Baynes likely out for a few weeks.

Also, the fact that the entire "stalemate" ended with only having to give up some 2020 2nd rounder (that I honestly had no clue we had in the treasure chest lol) sort of proves that CLE didn't have as much leverage b/c Kyrie clearly wanted out and no other team could come close to what BOS offered. I guess Ainge was just hell-bent on getting Kyrie though, so he made the deal with Zizic's inclusion as well (no 2nd thoughts).

Atleast we don't have to worry about Zubac being better than Zizic lol.

True but the Ingram vs. Brown and Tatum vs. Ball debates will live on forever LOL.

Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Roy H. on October 10, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
I think we had to either include Zizic or Yabu for salary purposes.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Somebody on October 10, 2017, 09:55:24 PM
This deal basically means that the Nets pick needs to be out of the top 6 and Kyrie needs to play at Harden level last year to make it good value.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: A Future of Stevens on October 10, 2017, 09:55:42 PM
I think we had to either include Zizic or Yabu for salary purposes.

That leads to the next question. Would you guys rather have Zizic or Yabu. I feel that Zizic fills more of a need, and is more likely to become a serviceable rotation player, but Yabu is a shot at a very good player.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Phantom255x on October 10, 2017, 09:57:43 PM
This deal basically means that the Nets pick needs to be out of the top 6 and Kyrie needs to play at Harden level last year to make it good value.

Harden level PLUS the average defense.

Oh and hope Zizic doesn't become a legit star now.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Phantom255x on October 10, 2017, 09:58:50 PM
I think we had to either include Zizic or Yabu for salary purposes.

Really? I thought as long as it was close to Irving's $$$ it could work (didn't have to be exact)?
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: hpantazo on October 10, 2017, 10:01:32 PM
Based on those preseason numbers I don't find it all that ridiculous.

Yeah, unfortunately I couldn't see Zizic ever getting playing time under Brad Stevens. He doesn't fit our system, and he looked pretty bad overall in summer league and preseason so far.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Roy H. on October 10, 2017, 10:11:45 PM
I think we had to either include Zizic or Yabu for salary purposes.

Really? I thought as long as it was close to Irving's $$$ it could work (didn't have to be exact)?

Right, but IT and Crowder combined only make about $13 million, which isn't "close" enough to Kyrie's $19 million. Salary needed to be added.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: chambers on October 10, 2017, 10:13:12 PM
It was apparently either Yabu or Zizic and in today's NBA I'd rather keep Yabu.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Boston Garden Leprechaun on October 10, 2017, 10:15:42 PM
It was apparently either Yabu or Zizic and in today's NBA I'd rather keep Yabu.

correct. end of conversation lol
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Phantom255x on October 10, 2017, 10:15:48 PM
I think we had to either include Zizic or Yabu for salary purposes.

Really? I thought as long as it was close to Irving's $$$ it could work (didn't have to be exact)?

Right, but IT and Crowder combined only make about $13 million, which isn't "close" enough to Kyrie's $19 million. Salary needed to be added.

Oh okay, TP for that. Well that kind of sucks then, losing him just to match salary after already giving up a ton. 

Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: trickybilly on October 10, 2017, 10:24:21 PM
This deal basically means that the Nets pick needs to be out of the top 6 and Kyrie needs to play at Harden level last year to make it good value.

I think I would argue deal is good value if Kyrie plays like Kyrie, and pick is out of Top 5. It's a quibble though.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: OldSchoolDude on October 10, 2017, 11:44:52 PM
I think people are looking at the trade wrong. Yes zizic is a good player, but he is behind Harford and Bayens. A snafu even a fourth the Lakers pick, we are in a great position t yo get Ayton or Bamba, both of whom predict to be ahead of zizic.  Your giving up a #3 center this year who becomes a # 4 center next year.  Seriously it's the equivalent of a zeller our Mickey.  Our roster has changed and we're better across the board. 
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: incoherent on October 10, 2017, 11:46:45 PM
I would have liked to keep Zizic also, however... he's just not an impactful enough player to be worth shutting down this deal.  Ultimately it does feel like this roster needs another big.

On the other side of the trade, imagine if we still had Crowder on this roster? How the heck would we have been able to develop Tatum and Brown give Crowder 25-30mins?  I feel like Crowder being gone is a blessing in disguise. 


Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Kuberski33 on October 10, 2017, 11:58:38 PM
I think we had to either include Zizic or Yabu for salary purposes.

That leads to the next question. Would you guys rather have Zizic or Yabu. I feel that Zizic fills more of a need, and is more likely to become a serviceable rotation player, but Yabu is a shot at a very good player.
One went 16th, the other 23rd.  I'm fine with keeping the #16 pick - odds are a little better that he becomes a decent player.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: nickagneta on October 11, 2017, 12:04:51 AM
Someone had to go to match salaries and after seeing Zizic in Summer League I don't believe the front office of the Celtics was buying that bull about Zizic being a top 10 pick this year. That was just silliness.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: jpotter33 on October 11, 2017, 12:20:26 AM
Someone had to go to match salaries and after seeing Zizic in Summer League I don't believe the front office of the Celtics was buying that bull about Zizic being a top 10 pick this year. That was just silliness.

Yeah, people on here had me excited about him, but after watching him in summer league and more videos online, he seems to have Valanciunas 2.0 for his ceiling, which doesn't really fit Brad's style.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: JSD on October 11, 2017, 12:25:21 AM
I mean.... he looked 2 steps behind in summer league.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: mmmmm on October 11, 2017, 12:38:08 AM
Someone had to go to match salaries and after seeing Zizic in Summer League I don't believe the front office of the Celtics was buying that bull about Zizic being a top 10 pick this year. That was just silliness.

Just for discussion's sake:  Did you happen to catch the July 9th, Summer League game against the 'Blazers?  How well did you think Zizic compared to the _actual_ #10 pick, Zach Collins?  FWIW, here are their stats from that game:

Zach Collins (7' 0", 233 lb, 19.9 years old)
5 points on 1-7 shooting, 6 reb, 1 assist, 3 steal, 2 block, 4 PF in 29:59 minutes

Ante Zizic (6' 11", 254 lb, 20.7 years old)
9 points on 3 of 4 shooting, 11 reb, 1 assist, 1 steal, 4 block, 3 PF in 27:04 minutes

Maybe your eyes saw something different, but mine saw Zizic pretty much dominate the #10 pick.   'Just one game of course.

Zizic actually dominated the _next_ two SL games even more so, in fewer minutes, posting lines of 12/13/2/1 and 14/11/1/3 in under 18 minutes of each game.   Did you only watch the first couple of games of SL?
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: csfansince60s on October 11, 2017, 12:44:40 AM
No worries, We have the Anti-Zizic right here.

https://youtu.be/32bal9DQWGg

Theis has more range in his shot, and is more ready to contribute right now.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: RockinRyA on October 11, 2017, 02:00:10 AM
Someone had to go to match salaries and after seeing Zizic in Summer League I don't believe the front office of the Celtics was buying that bull about Zizic being a top 10 pick this year. That was just silliness.

Why not? He performed well in Euroleague, he is a C in a draft without much Big Men prospect. It is very reasonable to think teams woulve picked him in the top 10.

Using Summer League as a reason to justify that is wrong. The draft comes before Summer League. Remember, Exum was picked in the top 5 before people knew what he actually is. In draft past performance and intrigue and lack of competition at your position is enough to get your stock rising.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Androslav on October 11, 2017, 02:01:00 AM
The Cavs euro scout is ziggy. I can see zizic ironically playing like ziggy
Žižić playing like Ziggy?
Was he the one that was...
Jamming good with Weird and Gilly?
And the spiders from Mars.

However, Žižić is right-handed, not lefthanded like Ziggy.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: kozlodoev on October 11, 2017, 03:33:18 AM
I think we had to either include Zizic or Yabu for salary purposes.

That leads to the next question. Would you guys rather have Zizic or Yabu. I feel that Zizic fills more of a need, and is more likely to become a serviceable rotation player, but Yabu is a shot at a very good player.
Yabusele has bust written all over him. He is one of those players that is intriguing because "that's what you need in today's NBA", not because he has a high chance to be a good pro.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: rollie mass on October 11, 2017, 03:57:58 AM
Zizic is a foul machine, i only looked at stats in one preseason game and he had 3 fouls in 6 minutes-i followed every European game and only saw 1 outside shot and zero three's
.I don't think Zizic had time to adjust early in Summer league Jet Lag ,altitude and speed of potential NBA players.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: saltlover on October 11, 2017, 04:27:41 AM
I think we had to either include Zizic or Yabu for salary purposes.

Nader or Semi also could have been included instead.  I doubt Zizic was the one of those four that Ainge most preferred to trade.  Which probably means he want a throw in.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: moiso on October 11, 2017, 04:29:43 AM
Someone had to go to match salaries and after seeing Zizic in Summer League I don't believe the front office of the Celtics was buying that bull about Zizic being a top 10 pick this year. That was just silliness.

Just for discussion's sake:  Did you happen to catch the July 9th, Summer League game against the 'Blazers?  How well did you think Zizic compared to the _actual_ #10 pick, Zach Collins?  FWIW, here are their stats from that game:

Zach Collins (7' 0", 233 lb, 19.9 years old)
5 points on 1-7 shooting, 6 reb, 1 assist, 3 steal, 2 block, 4 PF in 29:59 minutes

Ante Zizic (6' 11", 254 lb, 20.7 years old)
9 points on 3 of 4 shooting, 11 reb, 1 assist, 1 steal, 4 block, 3 PF in 27:04 minutes

Maybe your eyes saw something different, but mine saw Zizic pretty much dominate the #10 pick.   'Just one game of course.

Zizic actually dominated the _next_ two SL games even more so, in fewer minutes, posting lines of 12/13/2/1 and 14/11/1/3 in under 18 minutes of each game.   Did you only watch the first couple of games of SL?
Well, Zizic is supposed to be physically ready and Collins is projected to take a couple years to get his body up to par.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Somebody on October 11, 2017, 04:35:59 AM
This deal basically means that the Nets pick needs to be out of the top 6 and Kyrie needs to play at Harden level last year to make it good value.

I think I would argue deal is good value if Kyrie plays like Kyrie, and pick is out of Top 5. It's a quibble though.
If Kyrie plays like Kyrie I would just rather keep IT and hope that IT plays like IT.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Celtics4ever on October 11, 2017, 06:51:42 AM
Quote
Seems like Zizic was just a "throw-in" in this deal, and that's ridiculous because many experts said that in this previous draft (2017 NBA Draft), Zizic would likely have been a Top-10 pick (or at least a lottery one).

No one on God's green earth save his countryman would think this after seeing Summer League and his play there.

Here are his preseason stats

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/ante-zizic-player-stats?seasonType=3

Stop acting like we traded Bill Russell...
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: DooVoo on October 11, 2017, 07:15:28 AM
If we were forced to count on Zizic for anything this year we would be in serious trouble. Should I bring up all the threads screaming bloody murder when people finally saw Zizic in the summer league and he looked more like a 2nd round guy than a "top 10 pick". BTW, that top 10 stuff was always bs. You saw him and what he is. He deserved to be drafted where he was. He will take a long time to develop and he is your typical slow plodding euro big man who clearly has some talent. His "not too shabby" numbers are in line with any 3rd or 4th string bigman. Yesterday he played 5 minutes and got 1 rebound. I mean come on.

But welcome to celticsblog.

This deal basically means that the Nets pick needs to be out of the top 6 and Kyrie needs to play at Harden level last year to make it good value.

I think I would argue deal is good value if Kyrie plays like Kyrie, and pick is out of Top 5. It's a quibble though.
If Kyrie plays like Kyrie I would just rather keep IT and hope that IT plays like IT.

IT is hurt. IT can't play like IT when he is injured and no one knows when he will play this season or what IT will ever be again given how serious his injury is.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: RockinRyA on October 11, 2017, 08:02:10 AM
If we were forced to count on Zizic for anything this year we would be in serious trouble. Should I bring up all the threads screaming bloody murder when people finally saw Zizic in the summer league and he looked more like a 2nd round guy than a "top 10 pick". BTW, that top 10 stuff was always bs. You saw him and what he is. He deserved to be drafted where he was. He will take a long time to develop and he is your typical slow plodding euro big man who clearly has some talent. His "not too shabby" numbers are in line with any 3rd or 4th string bigman. Yesterday he played 5 minutes and got 1 rebound. I mean come on.

But welcome to celticsblog.

This deal basically means that the Nets pick needs to be out of the top 6 and Kyrie needs to play at Harden level last year to make it good value.

I think I would argue deal is good value if Kyrie plays like Kyrie, and pick is out of Top 5. It's a quibble though.
If Kyrie plays like Kyrie I would just rather keep IT and hope that IT plays like IT.

IT is hurt. IT can't play like IT when he is injured and no one knows when he will play this season or what IT will ever be again given how serious his injury is.

Like I said, its not BS. Its okay to say he isnt as good as a top 10 pick, but to say he wouldnt be top 10 prospect because of SL is BS. In a draft with few good bigs, a young C like him who put up great stats in Euroleague will attract a lot of teams. Dragan Bender showed less but was drafted higher afterall.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: IDreamCeltics on October 11, 2017, 09:09:09 AM
I think we had to either include Zizic or Yabu for salary purposes.

Nader or Semi also could have been included instead.  I doubt Zizic was the one of those four that Ainge most preferred to trade.  Which probably means he want a throw in.

Good point.  In the past few years the Cavs have valued big bodies more highly than the rest of the league.  Remember they once traded two first round picks for Timofey Mozgov AFTER signing Tristan Thompson to a max deal.  It' likely that Zizic was more than just a throw in to them.

To the Celtics however it's very possible they evaluated him and felt he was a replaceable player with a well defined but limited ceiling. 

From my perspective Zizic is so raw it's tough to have any idea what he'll become.  Could he be a great rebounder and shotblocker? Potentially, but in the same vein he's slow and unathletic in the NBA game and some guys never overcome that.  Not to mention his entire offense is at the rim which has become the Scarlett Letter for big men in today's NBA.  I think even if he becomes the next Jusuf Nurkic is that really that much of a loss?  His trade value was less than career journeyman Miles Plumlee as recently as last season.     
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: greece66 on October 11, 2017, 09:37:56 AM
We had to match salaries but yes, I was sad too to see Zizic go.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: incoherent on October 11, 2017, 09:43:02 AM
Kyrie Irving is shooting 65% from 3... but there's outrage over trading a third-string center for him.

Okay.

Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Surferdad on October 11, 2017, 10:06:10 AM
I wonder if the OP feels worse about giving up the 1st round pick than Zizic.  I do.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: guava_wrench on October 11, 2017, 10:18:48 AM
this is why I do not like the multiple players for one player trades for the team giving up multiple players. The team that gets multiple payers has its risks spread out more favorably, than the team that get just one player.
Yeah, like the trades for KG. And Ray Allen.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Phantom255x on October 11, 2017, 10:40:08 AM
Kyrie Irving is shooting 65% from 3... but there's outrage over trading a third-string center for him.

Okay.

No, there's outrage over giving up a very promising prospect in addition to everything else.

But now I'm aware that it was for salary reasons.

I wonder if the OP feels worse about giving up the 1st round pick than Zizic.  I do.

Search up all threads I have created in the recent month and trust me, you'll find your answer to that question  ;)
Title: I Want a Throw-In, Too!
Post by: ThePaintedArea on October 11, 2017, 10:45:32 AM
I think we had to either include Zizic or Yabu for salary purposes.

Nader or Semi also could have been included instead.  I doubt Zizic was the one of those four that Ainge most preferred to trade.  Which probably means he want a throw in.

I don't doubt it. Zizic is not very mobile and looks like he's another high-turnover big who doesn't integrate well into a ball- and man-movement offense.

Of course he wasn't a throw-in, he has some value. I love his relentlessness, and he has shown some ability to finish through contact.  But if he becomes a rotation player at some point it would be quite an achievement. Thirty years ago he'd have had a brighter future.

Keeping a player, even if he has some value, is a commitment to developing him - and not developing someone else. Ojeleye, Yabusele, and, yes, Nader all have higher upside, especially in today's NBA.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: mmmmm on October 11, 2017, 11:21:30 AM
Someone had to go to match salaries and after seeing Zizic in Summer League I don't believe the front office of the Celtics was buying that bull about Zizic being a top 10 pick this year. That was just silliness.

Just for discussion's sake:  Did you happen to catch the July 9th, Summer League game against the 'Blazers?  How well did you think Zizic compared to the _actual_ #10 pick, Zach Collins?  FWIW, here are their stats from that game:

Zach Collins (7' 0", 233 lb, 19.9 years old)
5 points on 1-7 shooting, 6 reb, 1 assist, 3 steal, 2 block, 4 PF in 29:59 minutes

Ante Zizic (6' 11", 254 lb, 20.7 years old)
9 points on 3 of 4 shooting, 11 reb, 1 assist, 1 steal, 4 block, 3 PF in 27:04 minutes

Maybe your eyes saw something different, but mine saw Zizic pretty much dominate the #10 pick.   'Just one game of course.

Zizic actually dominated the _next_ two SL games even more so, in fewer minutes, posting lines of 12/13/2/1 and 14/11/1/3 in under 18 minutes of each game.   Did you only watch the first couple of games of SL?
Well, Zizic is supposed to be physically ready and Collins is projected to take a couple years to get his body up to par.

The two players are less than a year apart in age.

The point is simply that, if folks are using the tiny sample of Summer League to declare all the talk that Zizic would be a top 10 pick in this last draft as 'silly', then they should probably say that the choice of Zach Collins at #10 was probably silly as well.   Because Zizic is almost certainly a better player at this point and probably will continue to be.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: RJ87 on October 11, 2017, 12:06:03 PM
I thought Zizic was significantly overrated by most of this board before he came over. I haven't seen anything yet in summer league or preseason that makes me feel like that was wrong. His salary was needed for the deal. To me his ceiling is a decent backup big who can give you 15 to 20 minutes a night. That's perfectly fine, but it's not a franchise maker or breaker. I'm not waking up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night because we traded him.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Rosco917 on October 11, 2017, 12:17:02 PM
Zizic will be a nice backup center someday.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: SparzWizard on October 11, 2017, 01:19:24 PM
If he cannot shoot the 3-ball, then his talent is just meh. That's the style of the NBA nowadays!
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: CoachBo on October 11, 2017, 02:13:44 PM
Best of luck waiting for the Croatian Crawler to ever make a dent in the association.

Hope you're ready to wait forever.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Tr1boy on October 11, 2017, 03:02:49 PM
The rumor was originally "Isaiah, Crowder, Lakers Pick" for most Irving trade rumors at the end of July and most of August. Even that was considered a slight overpay on Boston's part.

Then the deal happens, and it's "IT4, Crowder, 2018 Nets Pick, AND Zizic"  :o

I've obviously let known what my initial thoughts on the trade were (and I'm sure I've annoyed a ton of people in the process LOL), but what baffles me is how Zizic was added to what already was an overpay.

Seems like Zizic was just a "throw-in" in this deal, and that's ridiculous because many experts said that in this previous draft (2017 NBA Draft), Zizic would likely have been a Top-10 pick (or at least a lottery one).

So far, in 3 preseason games (and yes, I'm aware, it's only preseason):

10/4 vs. Atlanta Hawks: 4 points (3/5 shooting), 6 rebounds, 1 block (12 minutes)
10/6 vs. Indiana Pacers: 1 point, 1 rebound, 2 blocks (12 minutes)
10/8 vs. Washington Wizards: 7 points (2/3 shooting), 7 rebounds, 1 block (23 minutes)

Not too shabby. Struggled against Indiana but had 2 blocks in that game, and in the other 2 games had 6-7 rebounds with a block added too.

I think Zizic was slightly overhyped to begin with (like he wasn't a unicorn like Jokic as some on here said or anything like that), but still thought he could grow into a solid player (fringe starter who rebounds very well too).

Instead he goes to Cleveland and now Cleveland has two huge assets to potentially cash in on (either short term via trade, or long term assuming Lebron leaves).

And I know injuries happen, but now with Baynes likely out for a bit, suddenly our depth at center looks really, really thin again. Welp.

I understand Isaiah's injury played a part in all of this, but according to many reports, NO other team came close to what Boston was offering.

Zizic could have been used in another trade for another star to pair with Irving/Hayward and maybe Horford. Instead now the treasure chest is a lot thinner than it needed to be, with the Celtics still 1 star away from legitimately contending (IMHO).

if you were the Celtics GM, nothing would ever get done

can't be always trying to rip off other teams .... yes Danny succeeded a few times (half by luck)

but at some point , it can't continue

Celtics  gave up IT4 (who may never be the same again),  2018 Nets pick (which could be in the 7-9 range)  and Crowder (who is a solid pro but nothing great)

add a 20th pick Zizic .... and you are mad about this?     Zizic was on the way to warm up the bench or start in the G league... 
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: mainevent on October 11, 2017, 03:36:59 PM
Dupe
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: mainevent on October 11, 2017, 03:39:51 PM
Someone had to go to match salaries and after seeing Zizic in Summer League I don't believe the front office of the Celtics was buying that bull about Zizic being a top 10 pick this year. That was just silliness.

Just for discussion's sake:  Did you happen to catch the July 9th, Summer League game against the 'Blazers?  How well did you think Zizic compared to the _actual_ #10 pick, Zach Collins?  FWIW, here are their stats from that game:

Zach Collins (7' 0", 233 lb, 19.9 years old)
5 points on 1-7 shooting, 6 reb, 1 assist, 3 steal, 2 block, 4 PF in 29:59 minutes

Ante Zizic (6' 11", 254 lb, 20.7 years old)
9 points on 3 of 4 shooting, 11 reb, 1 assist, 1 steal, 4 block, 3 PF in 27:04 minutes

Maybe your eyes saw something different, but mine saw Zizic pretty much dominate the #10 pick.   'Just one game of course.

Zizic actually dominated the _next_ two SL games even more so, in fewer minutes, posting lines of 12/13/2/1 and 14/11/1/3 in under 18 minutes of each game.   Did you only watch the first couple of games of SL?

 :laugh: Are you really using a summer league game as a comparison? Lol...come on bro be for real. Remember Jordan Mickey? Summer league/D league all-star! How well did that work out? Zizic will take years to develop a decent game, if it ever develops. I felt buyers remorse watching those games as I was so anticipating seeing him in green this year. He was exactly what the title of this thread says he was...a throw-in, and I for one am not torn over the fact that it was him over anyone left on our current roster...not named Abdel Nader!
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: mmmmm on October 11, 2017, 04:09:15 PM
Someone had to go to match salaries and after seeing Zizic in Summer League I don't believe the front office of the Celtics was buying that bull about Zizic being a top 10 pick this year. That was just silliness.

Just for discussion's sake:  Did you happen to catch the July 9th, Summer League game against the 'Blazers?  How well did you think Zizic compared to the _actual_ #10 pick, Zach Collins?  FWIW, here are their stats from that game:

Zach Collins (7' 0", 233 lb, 19.9 years old)
5 points on 1-7 shooting, 6 reb, 1 assist, 3 steal, 2 block, 4 PF in 29:59 minutes

Ante Zizic (6' 11", 254 lb, 20.7 years old)
9 points on 3 of 4 shooting, 11 reb, 1 assist, 1 steal, 4 block, 3 PF in 27:04 minutes

Maybe your eyes saw something different, but mine saw Zizic pretty much dominate the #10 pick.   'Just one game of course.

Zizic actually dominated the _next_ two SL games even more so, in fewer minutes, posting lines of 12/13/2/1 and 14/11/1/3 in under 18 minutes of each game.   Did you only watch the first couple of games of SL?

 :laugh: Are you really using a summer league game as a comparison? Lol...come on bro be for real. Remember Jordan Mickey? Summer league/D league all-star! How well did that work out? Zizic will take years to develop a decent game, if it ever develops. I felt buyers remorse watching those games as I was so anticipating seeing him in green this year. He was exactly what the title of this thread says he was...a throw-in, and I for one am not torn over the fact that it was him over anyone left on our current roster...not named Abdel Nader!  ;D

Pay attention to the thread of discussion.

The dismissals by some folks here of Zizic's pre-SL assessment of "probably would have gone top-10 in this latest draft" is based purely on Summer League.    So I'm simply pointing out that in actuality, his Summer League performance was consistent with him being assessed higher than the guy taken #10.

Personally, I put a lot more stock in the much, much larger sample sizes we have on players like Zizic in EuroLeague, which is a far, far more serious level of competition, than a handful of games in Summer League.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Vermont Green on October 11, 2017, 04:46:23 PM
If Kyrie plays like Kyrie I would just rather keep IT and hope that IT plays like IT.

I think if Kyrie plays like Kyrie, he is still a little better as an overall asset than IT playing like IT.  But if you take this further and consider the odds that each will play this season as well as last season, than it favors Kyrie even more.  It is actually likely that Kyrie plays better than Kyrie and very unlikely that IT will play like IT.  I am not knocking IT, and lord knows I am done underestimating IT, but how can anyone expect another big season out of IT when he will be lucky to play half the season?

As for Zizic, I think he will be a decent player in a few years, maybe sooner.  Not a huge loss, but a loss.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Phantom255x on October 11, 2017, 07:56:58 PM
If he cannot shoot the 3-ball, then his talent is just meh. That's the style of the NBA nowadays!

Unfortunately that is true nowadays too lol.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: crimson_stallion on October 11, 2017, 09:25:28 PM
Best of luck waiting for the Croatian Crawler to ever make a dent in the association.

Hope you're ready to wait forever.

No, he will dominate the league like his fellow countryman Dragan Bender and Ivaca Zubac.

Oh, wait...

P.s.
Before somebody suggests it, I my background is actually Croatian - so no, I'm not a Croatian player hater lol
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Phantom255x on October 11, 2017, 10:00:43 PM
Best of luck waiting for the Croatian Crawler to ever make a dent in the association.

Hope you're ready to wait forever.

No, he will dominate the league like his fellow countryman Dragan Bender and Ivaca Zubac.

Oh, wait...

P.s.
Before somebody suggests it, I my background is actually Croatian - so no, I'm not a Croatian player hater lol

I mean, Zubac doesn't look bad. He actually looks pretty good (not all-star good, but still...)
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: DooVoo on October 11, 2017, 10:14:31 PM
Best of luck waiting for the Croatian Crawler to ever make a dent in the association.

Hope you're ready to wait forever.

No, he will dominate the league like his fellow countryman Dragan Bender and Ivaca Zubac.

Oh, wait...

P.s.
Before somebody suggests it, I my background is actually Croatian - so no, I'm not a Croatian player hater lol

I mean, Zubac doesn't look bad. He actually looks pretty good (not all-star good, but still...)

Well the Lakers weren't that thrilled with him cause they signed Bogut who will backup Lopez. Luckily for Zubac, Lopez and Bogut have injury issues so he still can find minutes. The problem with Zubac is the Lakers want to play fast and Zubac looked all sorts of lost trying to play that way during the summer league. Guys like Zubac and Zizic don't really fit into today's style of basketball. Equally nonathletic guys like Baynes and Bogut made themselves into players who can play that style after many years learning how to play basketball at a high level. Zubac and Zizic will take many years to reach those level if ever.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Phantom255x on October 11, 2017, 10:14:51 PM
Best of luck waiting for the Croatian Crawler to ever make a dent in the association.

Hope you're ready to wait forever.

Define "dent", because if "dent" means being a backup or even a 9th/10th man in a roster at worst, then I don't think we're waiting too long.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: crimson_stallion on October 11, 2017, 10:45:16 PM
Best of luck waiting for the Croatian Crawler to ever make a dent in the association.

Hope you're ready to wait forever.

No, he will dominate the league like his fellow countryman Dragan Bender and Ivaca Zubac.

Oh, wait...

P.s.
Before somebody suggests it, I my background is actually Croatian - so no, I'm not a Croatian player hater lol

I mean, Zubac doesn't look bad. He actually looks pretty good (not all-star good, but still...)

Oh no doubt - I think he looks like a rotation player.  Maybe a 3rd string center - possibly even a 2nd string center on a really bad team.  I think he has the potential to develop into a solid backup center. 

But You're not giving up the opportunity to trade for a superstar because the other team wants you to throw Zubac in.  25 year old superstars with championship / Olympics experience aren't easy to come by at all.  That's like finding a needle in a haystack.  Hard to say no to a deal like that because they are asking for your 3rd string center who might one day become a 2nd string center lol
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: flybono on October 12, 2017, 10:13:54 PM
Zizic will be back in a Euro League within 3 years!

Keep on trading the dead weight Danny
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Phantom255x on October 12, 2017, 10:29:20 PM
Zizic will be back in a Euro League within 3 years!

Keep on trading the dead weight Danny

Who do you consider dead weight on this team right now?
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: crimson_stallion on October 12, 2017, 11:18:36 PM
Zizic will be back in a Euro League within 3 years!

Keep on trading the dead weight Danny

Who do you consider dead weight on this team right now?

Starters: Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Morris, Horford
2nd unit:  Rozier, Smart, Tatum, Theis, Baynes
Reserves: Larkin, Theis, Yabusele, Semi

Anybody not on that list would classify as dead weight in my eyes.
Title: Re: Ridiculous That Zizic Was Merely A "Throw-In" To The Kyrie Deal
Post by: Phantom255x on October 14, 2017, 10:52:22 AM
Zizic will be back in a Euro League within 3 years!

Keep on trading the dead weight Danny

Who do you consider dead weight on this team right now?

Starters: Kyrie, Brown, Hayward, Morris, Horford
2nd unit:  Rozier, Smart, Tatum, Theis, Baynes
Reserves: Larkin, Theis, Yabusele, Semi

Anybody not on that list would classify as dead weight in my eyes.

So basically, Nader and then guys who are already destined to be cut lol.