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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: slightly biased bias fan on September 24, 2017, 05:20:38 AM

Title: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: slightly biased bias fan on September 24, 2017, 05:20:38 AM
Few clips from a previous 1 v 1 workout, he looks very flat footed and slow.

https://youtu.be/oGB1V0iesDs?t=2m13s

Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: trickybilly on September 24, 2017, 05:57:03 AM
Sheesh. 3 or 4 sets from a summer workout with two high quality multiyear vets. In high one on one plays. With clips where guys missed, edited out.

I'm not saying he doesn't need work on his defensive footwork, but this is not a good reference for showing his specific weaknesses.

Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: mr. dee on September 24, 2017, 06:10:24 AM
Celtics will do alot of switching. Im not too worried about his defense. It'll be good enough in time. He have shown potential and have the tools to become a solid defender.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Celtics4ever on September 24, 2017, 07:41:55 AM
Quote
Few clips from a previous 1 v 1 workout, he looks very flat footed and slow.

https://youtu.be/oGB1V0iesDs?t=2m13s

If this truly was the case, how did he play D1 basketball at a pretty high level.  Real slow and flat footed usually do not play SF at the D1 level, they can play PF and C but at SF your playing some of the best athletes in the game.

First of all, I don't agree with your assessment.   There were part of the film that had a different speed than others.   I don't know if you realized this but a good deal of the Tatum footage was slowed down.  These were guys not going at it 100%.  They were not sweating profusely and were not trying to go 100% to win, it looked like a very casual game to me.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Granath on September 24, 2017, 08:18:58 AM
Few clips from a previous 1 v 1 workout, he looks very flat footed and slow.

https://youtu.be/oGB1V0iesDs?t=2m13s

Your mistake is basing an opinion on a handful of clips.

When you look at a limited subset, you have to look for little things that stand out. Being caught flatfooted a couple of times is not one of those little things. But the video does show a few things that he does well.

For example look at how he extends his elbow at 3:38 of the video to create space, drives the lane and effortlessly switches hands to the left for the layup. That's the kind of thing you look for in a short video because that shows some pretty advanced technique. 
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Smitty77 on September 24, 2017, 08:42:35 AM
He seems FINE to me!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4d-ICTOqBo

What really stands out to me is his REACH!!!!  Really long arms that more than make up for average lateral speed.

Smitty77
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: tazzmaniac on September 24, 2017, 08:46:43 AM
Duke was a lousy defensive team last season and Tatum was part of the problem but they had a lot of poor defenders.  If you watched any Duke games last season that was obvious.  Tatum will definitely be a defensive liability this season so it will be interesting to see how many minutes he gets. 
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: tazzmaniac on September 24, 2017, 09:01:45 AM
He seems FINE to me!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4d-ICTOqBo

What really stands out to me is his REACH!!!!  Really long arms that more than make up for average lateral speed.

Smitty77
Tatum is reported to have a 6'11" wingspan which is rather average for an NBA player of his height. 
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Smitty77 on September 24, 2017, 10:14:24 AM
I tried to find a video of Jayson's three blocks, one an impressive chase down Lebron style block in one ACC tourney game.

But, I could not locate it.

Smitty77

P.S.  My point is that he CAN bring it when he WANTS to.  It is NOT that he can NOT play D!!!!
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: tazzmaniac on September 24, 2017, 10:46:11 AM
I tried to find a video of Jayson's three blocks, one an impressive chase down Lebron style block in one ACC tourney game.

But, I could not locate it.

Smitty77

P.S.  My point is that he CAN bring it when he WANTS to.  It is NOT that he can NOT play D!!!!
Blocks can be impressive but they do not constitute playing good D.  If it did, Fultz would have been considered a great defender in this draft.  Good D is about footwork, positioning, awareness, communication, ....  I didn't see anything in Tatum's college play to show he could become a good defender.  I'll temper that because Duke was a really, really bad defensive team so Tatum might develop in a better environment.  I'm hoping he eventually develops into an average defender but that will take time. 
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Phantom255x on September 24, 2017, 11:31:42 AM
It's getting kind of ridiculous seeing all these posts about rookies struggling on defense early and "needing a lot of work".

Guys, THEY HAVEN'T PLAYED A SINGLE NBA MINUTE YET.

Do you seriously expect them to be Kawhi Leonard right out of the gate on defense?  ::)

How's Fultz defense right now? Lonzo's?
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: tazzmaniac on September 24, 2017, 12:13:24 PM
It's getting kind of ridiculous seeing all these posts about rookies struggling on defense early and "needing a lot of work".

Guys, THEY HAVEN'T PLAYED A SINGLE NBA MINUTE YET.

Do you seriously expect them to be Kawhi Leonard right out of the gate on defense?  ::)

How's Fultz defense right now? Lonzo's?
Less ridiculous than all the posts hyping Tatum's summer league play.  All players need work coming into the NBA but it is good to have a realistic view of where they currently are at.  James Young, clearly a lot less talented than Tatum, got plenty of hype on here but then reality hit and he couldn't get on the court to a large degree because of his poor defense.  That was when we were barely a playoff team.  Now we're trying to be a contender so how much will Tatum's minutes be limited if he displays similarly poor defense?   

You must have missed all the posts deriding Ball because of his poor defense in college.  Same goes for Ben Simmons.  Fultz of course was a special case.  When we had the #1 pick and everyone thought it would be Fultz, there were a lot of posts on his size and defensive potential disregarding his actual poor defense in college.  Once the trade happened, all the Tatum hyped started and Fultz's defensive deficiencies came to the forefront as well as the nonsense about him not being a winner.   
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Celtics4ever on September 24, 2017, 12:29:06 PM
He is a rookie and he needs strength so he will have to do a lot of work.   But the OP misrepresented the reasons by hinting that he lacks the athletic ability to play in the league which is not true.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: dweeks7 on September 24, 2017, 12:38:42 PM
If you notice in the video nobody misses a shot and it's obvious they are playing half speed and not really trying to stop each other from scoring. Another thing that tells me Jayson will be fine is a couple of comments I read.

Number one is that Brad Stevens said he was surprised by Jayson's defense in summer league and another NBA GM said he was surprised at how good Tatum's defense is.

He will be an above average defender and I believe he will be a plus defender. Watch and see.  ;)
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: liam on September 24, 2017, 12:45:09 PM
It's getting kind of ridiculous seeing all these posts about rookies struggling on defense early and "needing a lot of work".

Guys, THEY HAVEN'T PLAYED A SINGLE NBA MINUTE YET.

Do you seriously expect them to be Kawhi Leonard right out of the gate on defense?  ::)

How's Fultz defense right now? Lonzo's?
Less ridiculous than all the posts hyping Tatum's summer league play.  All players need work coming into the NBA but it is good to have a realistic view of where they currently are at.  James Young, clearly a lot less talented than Tatum, got plenty of hype on here but then reality hit and he couldn't get on the court to a large degree because of his poor defense.  That was when we were barely a playoff team.  Now we're trying to be a contender so how much will Tatum's minutes be limited if he displays similarly poor defense?   

You must have missed all the posts deriding Ball because of his poor defense in college.  Same goes for Ben Simmons.  Fultz of course was a special case.  When we had the #1 pick and everyone thought it would be Fultz, there were a lot of posts on his size and defensive potential disregarding his actual poor defense in college.  Once the trade happened, all the Tatum hyped started and Fultz's defensive deficiencies came to the forefront as well as the nonsense about him not being a winner.

Yes, fans overlook deficiencies in players on their home teams and tend to see more warts on players from other teams.  I think that is just human nature.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4d-ICTOqBo
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: blink on September 24, 2017, 01:28:16 PM
He is a rookie and he needs strength so he will have to do a lot of work.   But the OP misrepresented the reasons by hinting that he lacks the athletic ability to play in the league which is not true.

I agree with this line of thought.  Almost any rookie is going to have a learning curve to play D at the NBA level.  Getting stronger for his size / height will help a lot.  He has the physical tools and the bbiq to be a good defender.  Patience Patience Patience....
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Rosco917 on September 24, 2017, 01:42:32 PM
Few clips from a previous 1 v 1 workout, he looks very flat footed and slow.

https://youtu.be/oGB1V0iesDs?t=2m13s



That really was ugly. But he has all the tools to get better. 
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Sketch5 on September 24, 2017, 02:26:14 PM
While he dose need work on that end(not many rookies don't), Stevens said he was really impressed how much better he had gotten at D during the summer league.

Which means, he knows it's a weakness, and he's working on it, and he's getting results. Brown had an edge last season were he could play really solid to great D, but his offense was lacking in the beginning.

Tatum might have solid to good offense, but lacking on the defensive end. But coming off the bench, he should get playing time unless he really stinks it up. They'll need some scoring off the bench and as long as he can play solid D and stay with in schemes, he should be fine.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: droopdog7 on September 24, 2017, 03:07:47 PM
Sheesh. 3 or 4 sets from a summer workout with two high quality multiyear vets. In high one on one plays. With clips where guys missed, edited out.

I'm not saying he doesn't need work on his defensive footwork, but this is not a good reference for showing his specific weaknesses.
Seriously.  It's an offensive highlight reel.  Everyone is beating everyone yet Tatum is the one that looks bad?  Wuh?
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: rollie mass on September 24, 2017, 05:04:15 PM
He had just comeoff a 7 hr plane flight-if you heard him at start of his portion of tape
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Emmette Bryant on September 24, 2017, 05:16:19 PM
Few clips from a previous 1 v 1 workout, he looks very flat footed and slow.

https://youtu.be/oGB1V0iesDs?t=2m13s

Telling it like it is.  Thanks Howard.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: keevsnick on September 24, 2017, 05:55:06 PM
Its gonna be interesting, I think there's a chance he gets less playing time than we expect just because this team now has more guys (Irving, Hayward, Horford somewhat, a little bit Morris) that can got out and et themselves a shot meaning Tatum's skill set is less needed. Of course he'll still get playing time because much of our depth is gone but it might be less than expected if is defense is bad.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: liam on September 24, 2017, 06:27:48 PM
Its gonna be interesting, I think there's a chance he gets less playing time than we expect just because this team now has more guys (Irving, Hayward, Horford somewhat, a little bit Morris) that can got out and et themselves a shot meaning Tatum's skill set is less needed. Of course he'll still get playing time because much of our depth is gone but it might be less than expected if is defense is bad.

I hope there are plenty of garbage time minutes this year because we blow a lot of teams out.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: footey on September 24, 2017, 07:11:28 PM
Tatum offense very advanced for his age. I expect him to get more minutes than Brown got last rookie season. Who else on 2nd unit can create his own shot so well? 
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: mr. dee on September 24, 2017, 07:33:04 PM
Tatum offense very advanced for his age. I expect him to get more minutes than Brown got last rookie season. Who else on 2nd unit can create his own shot so well?

This.

I expect Smart to also come off the bench. When the first unit sits, I expect a nice balance with the second unit.

Smart
Rozier
Tatum
Yabu
Semi

That's a versatile line up with Tatum as their primary scorer.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: trickybilly on September 24, 2017, 08:59:01 PM
Tatum offense very advanced for his age. I expect him to get more minutes than Brown got last rookie season. Who else on 2nd unit can create his own shot so well?

This.

I expect Smart to also come off the bench. When the first unit sits, I expect a nice balance with the second unit.

Smart
Rozier
Tatum
Yabu
Semi

That's a versatile line up with Tatum as their primary scorer.

That lineup is awesome. Not sure we go with three rookies on the court at any one time though, except garbage.

Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Ilikesports17 on September 24, 2017, 09:04:26 PM
Tatum offense very advanced for his age. I expect him to get more minutes than Brown got last rookie season. Who else on 2nd unit can create his own shot so well?

This.

I expect Smart to also come off the bench. When the first unit sits, I expect a nice balance with the second unit.

Smart
Rozier
Tatum
Yabu
Semi

That's a versatile line up with Tatum as their primary scorer.
Baynes is the backup center.

Not only is Semi not a center, but hes not nearly as good as Baynes.

Tatum and Rozier are the primary sources of scoring for the bench.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: mr. dee on September 24, 2017, 09:14:58 PM
Tatum offense very advanced for his age. I expect him to get more minutes than Brown got last rookie season. Who else on 2nd unit can create his own shot so well?

This.

I expect Smart to also come off the bench. When the first unit sits, I expect a nice balance with the second unit.

Smart
Rozier
Tatum
Yabu
Semi

That's a versatile line up with Tatum as their primary scorer.
Baynes is the backup center.

Not only is Semi not a center, but hes not nearly as good as Baynes.

Tatum and Rozier are the primary sources of scoring for the bench.

Baynes could actually start, ala Amir against bigger lineups. If Brad goes to more floor spacing and small ball, Semi is the guy.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: hwangjini_1 on September 24, 2017, 09:38:21 PM
Tatum offense very advanced for his age. I expect him to get more minutes than Brown got last rookie season. Who else on 2nd unit can create his own shot so well?

This.

I expect Smart to also come off the bench. When the first unit sits, I expect a nice balance with the second unit.

Smart
Rozier
Tatum
Yabu
Semi

That's a versatile line up with Tatum as their primary scorer.
that is a very nice second string lineup. though i expect that some combo of Thies and Baynes would be there in place of either yabu or semi. that would add at least some more experience to a very very young group.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: tstorey_97 on September 24, 2017, 10:29:43 PM
He is not about defense.

My guess is, if Tatum can gain proficiency on defense at a similar rate as Jaylen Brown (who was ineffective on defense for at least the first half of last season), he'll be ok. He appears to be more fluid and coordinated than Brown and perhaps, this will help as he learns Celtic's defense.

I reiterate, he will never be on the floor as a "defensive player." Rozier and Smart struggle on offense, but, help win games. Tatum will hit the shot that wins the above games...and the Celtics will need those shots.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: chilidawg on September 24, 2017, 11:15:01 PM
Is there a post in this thread that isn't pure speculation?
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: ThePaintedArea on September 24, 2017, 11:20:37 PM
I wouldn't be too concerned. He needs lower body strength and a more aggressive attitude, needs to get up into his man and make him work. I thought he had some focus breakdowns in SL. All of these issues are overcome by work and coaching - and hard work and being coachable are two of his big strengths.

He has average length for an NBA 4, to answer a misconception in this thread.

He's got a great body, excellent balance, and as regards defense, extends quick through the torso to get his arms up or out - he uses his length.

Depends on how bad he wants it.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: liam on September 24, 2017, 11:26:00 PM
Is there a post in this thread that isn't pure speculation?

No there is not...
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: DooVoo on September 24, 2017, 11:40:59 PM
Is there a post in this thread that isn't pure speculation?

Nope. Welcome to Celticsblog where threads and snap judgements are made about players based on a few seconds of meaningless youtube clips. It is probably why a lot of people left here.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: crimson_stallion on September 24, 2017, 11:55:04 PM
He seems FINE to me!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4d-ICTOqBo

What really stands out to me is his REACH!!!!  Really long arms that more than make up for average lateral speed.

Smitty77
Tatum is reported to have a 6'11" wingspan which is rather average for an NBA player of his height.

Tatum has a 6'11" wingspan and 8'10" standing reach - they are not average numbers for a player of his height by any means. 

Those numbers are about on par with guys like Paul George, Lebron James, Jaylen Brown, etc.

For comparison purposes:

* Jae Crowder:
Height: 6'6"
Wingspan: 6'9"
Standing reach: 8'3"

* Paul George:
Height: 6'9"
Wingspan: 6'11"
Standing reach: 8'11"

* Jimmy Butler:
Height: 6'8"
Wingspan: 6'7"
Standing reach: 8'5"

* Lebron James:
Height: 6'8"
Wingspan: 7'0"
Standing reach: 8'10"

* Jaylen Brown:
Height: 6'7"
Wingspan: 7'0"
Standing reach: 8'6"

* Gordon Hayward:
Height: 6'8"
Wingspan: 6'8"
Standing reach: 8'7"

* Joe Johnson:
Height: 6'8"
Wingspan: 6'9"
Standing reach: 8'9"

* Demar Derozan:
Height: 6'6"
Wingspan: 6'9"
Standing reach: Not 8'6"

* Al Horford:
Height: 6'10"
Wingspan: 7'0"
Standing reach: 8'11"

With the exception of a couple of outright freaks out there (Kawhi, Rudy Gay), Jayson Tatum has exceptional length for a player of his size.  Looking at his length compared to Al Horford you can see he easily has the length to defend NBA PF's and even smaller C's - it's just a matter of adding muscle/mass.  I wouldn't go so far as to say he has ELITE length at his size (as that would be RudyGay / Kawhi) but definitely excellent length.
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: CelticsElite on September 25, 2017, 12:00:16 AM
I don't Understand how people put down tatum. His wingspan isn't average. Almost everything about Tatum isn't average. He's been an elite above average top 3 prospect since early high school for many reasons, one being his physical attributes
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Beat LA on September 25, 2017, 01:07:21 AM
Quote
Few clips from a previous 1 v 1 workout, he looks very flat footed and slow.

https://youtu.be/oGB1V0iesDs?t=2m13s

If this truly was the case, how did he play D1 basketball at a pretty high level.  Real slow and flat footed usually do not play SF at the D1 level, they can play PF and C but at SF your playing some of the best athletes in the game.

But that's just it - he didn't play as a small forward.  Instead, and much like Jabari Parker, he played at the 4, which made him look considerably quicker against his matchups until you realize that he was doing most of his damage against much slower, and more traditional, power forwards, again, much like Parker, which is why I looked at him as the classic Duke tweener, only for him to, thankfully, look much better, laterally, during the summer league.  Hopefully that will be the case in the NBA, as well.

While he dose need work on that end(not many rookies don't), Stevens said he was really impressed how much better he had gotten at D during the summer league.

Which means, he knows it's a weakness, and he's working on it, and he's getting results. Brown had an edge last season were he could play really solid to great D, but his offense was lacking in the beginning.

Tatum might have solid to good offense, but lacking on the defensive end. But coming off the bench, he should get playing time unless he really stinks it up. They'll need some scoring off the bench and as long as he can play solid D and stay with in schemes, he should be fine.

Wait a minute, I thought that everything was earned and nothing was given on this team ;).
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: RockinRyA on September 25, 2017, 01:58:12 AM
Quote
Few clips from a previous 1 v 1 workout, he looks very flat footed and slow.

https://youtu.be/oGB1V0iesDs?t=2m13s

If this truly was the case, how did he play D1 basketball at a pretty high level.  Real slow and flat footed usually do not play SF at the D1 level, they can play PF and C but at SF your playing some of the best athletes in the game.

But that's just it - he didn't play as a small forward.  Instead, and much like Jabari Parker, he played at the 4, which made him look considerably quicker against his matchups until you realize that he was doing most of his damage against much slower, and more traditional, power forwards, again, much like Parker, which is why I looked at him as the classic Duke tweener, only for him to, thankfully, look much better, laterally, during the summer league.  Hopefully that will be the case in the NBA, as well.

While he dose need work on that end(not many rookies don't), Stevens said he was really impressed how much better he had gotten at D during the summer league.

Which means, he knows it's a weakness, and he's working on it, and he's getting results. Brown had an edge last season were he could play really solid to great D, but his offense was lacking in the beginning.

Tatum might have solid to good offense, but lacking on the defensive end. But coming off the bench, he should get playing time unless he really stinks it up. They'll need some scoring off the bench and as long as he can play solid D and stay with in schemes, he should be fine.

Wait a minute, I thought that everything was earned and nothing was given on this team ;).

And you think if he plays he didnt earn it? Poster just said Tatum was working on it. Classic Beat LA  ::)
Title: Re: Jayson Tatum's defence is reaaallly going to need some work
Post by: Beat LA on September 25, 2017, 02:42:43 AM
Quote
Few clips from a previous 1 v 1 workout, he looks very flat footed and slow.

https://youtu.be/oGB1V0iesDs?t=2m13s

If this truly was the case, how did he play D1 basketball at a pretty high level.  Real slow and flat footed usually do not play SF at the D1 level, they can play PF and C but at SF your playing some of the best athletes in the game.

But that's just it - he didn't play as a small forward.  Instead, and much like Jabari Parker, he played at the 4, which made him look considerably quicker against his matchups until you realize that he was doing most of his damage against much slower, and more traditional, power forwards, again, much like Parker, which is why I looked at him as the classic Duke tweener, only for him to, thankfully, look much better, laterally, during the summer league.  Hopefully that will be the case in the NBA, as well.

While he dose need work on that end(not many rookies don't), Stevens said he was really impressed how much better he had gotten at D during the summer league.

Which means, he knows it's a weakness, and he's working on it, and he's getting results. Brown had an edge last season were he could play really solid to great D, but his offense was lacking in the beginning.

Tatum might have solid to good offense, but lacking on the defensive end. But coming off the bench, he should get playing time unless he really stinks it up. They'll need some scoring off the bench and as long as he can play solid D and stay with in schemes, he should be fine.

Wait a minute, I thought that everything was earned and nothing was given on this team ;).

And you think if he plays he didnt earn it? Poster just said Tatum was working on it. Classic Beat LA  ::)

I would certainly hope so, but just because a guy is working on something like defense, etc., doesn't automatically mean that he's ready for prime time right at the start.  Case in point, Jaylen Brown has a great work ethic and spent time improving his defense, etc., iirc, over the summer before last season and his defense early on wasn't anywhere near ready, but Stevens kept throwing him out there, which is fine, imo, as long as that same learning curve is extended to everyone on the team regardless of draft position.  Otherwise you're just playing favorites :-\.