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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: TheReaLPuba on September 19, 2017, 07:37:44 AM

Title: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: TheReaLPuba on September 19, 2017, 07:37:44 AM
....dude averages 64 games a season.

Don't be surprised if he misses playoff games too.

Guards with chronic knee issues don't age well (Kevin Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Kenny Naderson, etc...) and this teams window is the next 3 years which basically matches GS.

Does anyone think we are on the Warriors level right now ??

How does Ainge give up the two best picks in franchise history ?

He's been patient for so many years and panicks now...why ?!
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: A Future of Stevens on September 19, 2017, 07:40:23 AM
A late second rounder is one of the greatest 2 picks in franchise history?
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Roy H. on September 19, 2017, 07:52:48 AM
A late second rounder is one of the greatest 2 picks in franchise history?

I assume he means Fultz + BRK pick.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: A Future of Stevens on September 19, 2017, 07:58:12 AM
A late second rounder is one of the greatest 2 picks in franchise history?

I assume he means Fultz + BRK pick.

I know, I'm just pointing out he made a jump from talking about Kyrie, Kyrie to talking about that BRK pick.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Vermont Green on September 19, 2017, 08:24:36 AM
Then when we trade Tatum or the Lakers Pick, people will scream that they can't believe we traded such valuable assets without connecting that those are the 2 valuable assets that we got for trading that one valuable asset that they complained about trading.

I do agree with the general idea that durability is an issue with Kyrie.  There is risk associated with this aspect of the trade, no doubt.

Disagree about the window though.  We are set up just fine for more than a 3 year window.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Roy H. on September 19, 2017, 08:27:10 AM
I do think it's odd that some people talk like Kyrie is more durable, that IT's game makes him more susceptible to injury, etc.

Kyrie has obviously had some injury issues, and they're somewhat concerning. In 6 seasons, he has missed 60 games more than IT. On average, Kyrie misses 20% of the regular season every year, while IT has only missed six games, total, the last two seasons.

So, "damaged goods" might be strong, but history tells us we won't be getting an iron man.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: ETNCeltics on September 19, 2017, 08:28:25 AM
KI hasn't missed significant time in 3 of the last 4 seasons, vs. IT who may have a serious debilitating long term issue.

Not really comparable.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Roy H. on September 19, 2017, 08:43:07 AM
KI hasn't missed significant time in 3 of the last 4 seasons ...

Or, Kyrie has missed at least 12% of the season 5 out of 6 years in his career.

It depends on how you view "significant".
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Dino Pitino on September 19, 2017, 08:44:39 AM
KI hasn't missed significant time in 3 of the last 4 seasons ...

Or, Kyrie has missed at least 12% of the season 5 out of 6 years in his career.

It depends on how you view "significant".

Around ten games isn't significant.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: coffee425 on September 19, 2017, 09:17:22 AM
KI hasn't missed significant time in 3 of the last 4 seasons ...

Or, Kyrie has missed at least 12% of the season 5 out of 6 years in his career.

It depends on how you view "significant".

Around ten games isn't significant.

Hell the Spurs rest their guys 12% of the season.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Smartacus on September 19, 2017, 09:37:11 AM
KI hasn't missed significant time in 3 of the last 4 seasons ...

Or, Kyrie has missed at least 12% of the season 5 out of 6 years in his career.

It depends on how you view "significant".

Around ten games isn't significant.

Hell the Spurs rest their guys 12% of the season.

This is a fair point Cleveland was copying the Spurs rest model the last 2 years. Many of Kyrie's missed starts were scheduled unlike IT who was playing above his physical limits for much of the second half of last season.

Kyrie got to the finals healthy each of the least 2 seasons whatever body maintenance he's doing is clearly working.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: rollie mass on September 19, 2017, 09:38:36 AM
The clean chop--not having to deal with injury concerns and when he gets back and how he plays and for how long or surgery or no surgery and salary negotiations.I think a lot of young players get hurt early in careers but learn how and when to put it on.Irving is not an above rim player
In one way we got the smart smooth players-horford,tatum,hayward and irving-
Then we got the grit /tough guys Rozier,smart and morris-then then the big strong guys yabuselea (boxer), ojeleye( best athlete combine) and baynes (rugby).
Irving says he wants to be a point guard not just a scorer and make everyone better -is that damaged
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: hpantazo on September 19, 2017, 09:46:19 AM
A late second rounder is one of the greatest 2 picks in franchise history?

I assume he means Fultz + BRK pick.

Well we didn't give up Fultz for Kyrie, we got the guy we wanted in the draft and got an additional potential lottery pick out of it too
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: TheReaLPuba on September 19, 2017, 10:43:00 AM
A late second rounder is one of the greatest 2 picks in franchise history?

I assume he means Fultz + BRK pick.

Yes exactly.

Although Tatum looks to be the real deal....with the eye test.

Will he have a historic HOF career like Pierce?

We shall see.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: coffee425 on September 19, 2017, 10:43:22 AM
....dude averages 64 games a season.

Don't be surprised if he misses playoff games too.

Guards with chronic knee issues don't age well (Kevin Johnson, Penny Hardaway, Kenny Naderson, etc...)
and this teams window is the next 3 years which basically matches GS.

Does anyone think we are on the Warriors level right now ??

How does Ainge give up the two best picks in franchise history ?

He's been patient for so many years and panicks now...why ?!


Under 6' guards age worse (example. all of them).
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: TheReaLPuba on September 19, 2017, 10:46:25 AM
The clean chop--not having to deal with injury concerns and when he gets back and how he plays and for how long or surgery or no surgery and salary negotiations.I think a lot of young players get hurt early in careers but learn how and when to put it on.Irving is not an above rim player
In one way we got the smart smooth players-horford,tatum,hayward and irving-
Then we got the grit /tough guys Rozier,smart and morris-then then the big strong guys yabuselea (boxer), ojeleye( best athlete combine) and baynes (rugby).
Irving says he wants to be a point guard not just a scorer and make everyone better -is that damaged

Irving is a one on one player....has been his whole life.

He's got mad handles and drives to the rim.....all that crossing over and stop and go can't be good for his knees in the long run. He doesn't have to be an above the rim player.

He's one step or one landing from a serious injury.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Ilikesports17 on September 19, 2017, 11:32:36 AM
I do think it's odd that some people talk like Kyrie is more durable, that IT's game makes him more susceptible to injury, etc.

Kyrie has obviously had some injury issues, and they're somewhat concerning. In 6 seasons, he has missed 60 games more than IT. On average, Kyrie misses 20% of the regular season every year, while IT has only missed six games, total, the last two seasons.

So, "damaged goods" might be strong, but history tells us we won't be getting an iron man.
Can you really not figure out why the older player with the serious hip injury is a bigger injury concern than the guy who hasn't had a serious injury since 2015?
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: celticsclay on September 19, 2017, 11:38:05 AM
I do think it's odd that some people talk like Kyrie is more durable, that IT's game makes him more susceptible to injury, etc.

Kyrie has obviously had some injury issues, and they're somewhat concerning. In 6 seasons, he has missed 60 games more than IT. On average, Kyrie misses 20% of the regular season every year, while IT has only missed six games, total, the last two seasons.

So, "damaged goods" might be strong, but history tells us we won't be getting an iron man.
Can you really not figure out why the older player with the serious hip injury is a bigger injury concern than the guy who hasn't had a serious injury since 2015?

/thread
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on September 19, 2017, 11:53:11 AM
I do think it's odd that some people talk like Kyrie is more durable, that IT's game makes him more susceptible to injury, etc.

Kyrie has obviously had some injury issues, and they're somewhat concerning. In 6 seasons, he has missed 60 games more than IT. On average, Kyrie misses 20% of the regular season every year, while IT has only missed six games, total, the last two seasons.

So, "damaged goods" might be strong, but history tells us we won't be getting an iron man.
Can you really not figure out why the older player with the serious hip injury is a bigger injury concern than the guy who hasn't had a serious injury since 2015?

/thread

I think he's just pointing to some level of hypocrisy.  The same people negging IT for his injury history are likely discounting Kyrie's injury history.  Kyrie's time missed is probably in part due to the Cavs just resting. But he's had a ton of injuries and always seems to be playing hurt. My concern would be him becoming more injury prone if he actually starts to play defense.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Adelaide Celt on September 19, 2017, 12:00:17 PM
He's one step or one landing from a serious injury.

The same can be said for pretty much every player in the league.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Roy H. on September 19, 2017, 12:07:23 PM
I do think it's odd that some people talk like Kyrie is more durable, that IT's game makes him more susceptible to injury, etc.

Kyrie has obviously had some injury issues, and they're somewhat concerning. In 6 seasons, he has missed 60 games more than IT. On average, Kyrie misses 20% of the regular season every year, while IT has only missed six games, total, the last two seasons.

So, "damaged goods" might be strong, but history tells us we won't be getting an iron man.
Can you really not figure out why the older player with the serious hip injury is a bigger injury concern than the guy who hasn't had a serious injury since 2015?

/thread

Except neither the thread title, nor my response, suggests that IT is healthier at present.

Rather, many fans are arguing that even if he returns, IT isn't worth the risk of a large contract because his game won't hold up over time. For those fans worried about durability, it makes sense to see how durable Kyrie is, doesn't it?

As I said, Kyrie isn't "damaged goods", but he's not particularly durable, either.  Please try to add something of substance next time.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: celticsclay on September 19, 2017, 12:39:43 PM
I do think it's odd that some people talk like Kyrie is more durable, that IT's game makes him more susceptible to injury, etc.

Kyrie has obviously had some injury issues, and they're somewhat concerning. In 6 seasons, he has missed 60 games more than IT. On average, Kyrie misses 20% of the regular season every year, while IT has only missed six games, total, the last two seasons.

So, "damaged goods" might be strong, but history tells us we won't be getting an iron man.
Can you really not figure out why the older player with the serious hip injury is a bigger injury concern than the guy who hasn't had a serious injury since 2015?

/thread

Except neither the thread title, nor my response, suggests that IT is healthier at present.

Rather, many fans are arguing that even if he returns, IT isn't worth the risk of a large contract because his game won't hold up over time. For those fans worried about durability, it makes sense to see how durable Kyrie is, doesn't it?

As I said, Kyrie isn't "damaged goods", but he's not particularly durable, either.  Please try to add something of substance next time.

Roy I got to say this end of your post really doesn't seem like the kind of thing you normally write.  I thought that pointing out that Irving is both younger and does currently have an injury at this time kind of succinctly puts to bed the false equivalency of this thread title. If this thread said IT maybe damaged goods, but Irving has missed games in his career, that would be a reasonable phrasing (but not really groundbreaking). As it stands, it is not really a reasonable title or point.

Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: alley oop on September 19, 2017, 02:27:32 PM
The last 4 seasons he's played 71, 75, 53, and 72 regular season games. The 53 game 2015/2016 season can be blamed on Coach Blatt playing him 44 minutes in the 1st game of the 2015 Finals when he was injured to the point he'd been missing games and playing limited minutes in the prior 2 playoff series. He missed lots of games in the 2015/2016 season recovering from off season surgery.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Roy H. on September 19, 2017, 02:45:14 PM
I do think it's odd that some people talk like Kyrie is more durable, that IT's game makes him more susceptible to injury, etc.

Kyrie has obviously had some injury issues, and they're somewhat concerning. In 6 seasons, he has missed 60 games more than IT. On average, Kyrie misses 20% of the regular season every year, while IT has only missed six games, total, the last two seasons.

So, "damaged goods" might be strong, but history tells us we won't be getting an iron man.
Can you really not figure out why the older player with the serious hip injury is a bigger injury concern than the guy who hasn't had a serious injury since 2015?

/thread

Except neither the thread title, nor my response, suggests that IT is healthier at present.

Rather, many fans are arguing that even if he returns, IT isn't worth the risk of a large contract because his game won't hold up over time. For those fans worried about durability, it makes sense to see how durable Kyrie is, doesn't it?

As I said, Kyrie isn't "damaged goods", but he's not particularly durable, either.  Please try to add something of substance next time.

Roy I got to say this end of your post really doesn't seem like the kind of thing you normally write.  I thought that pointing out that Irving is both younger and does currently have an injury at this time kind of succinctly puts to bed the false equivalency of this thread title. If this thread said IT maybe damaged goods, but Irving has missed games in his career, that would be a reasonable phrasing (but not really groundbreaking). As it stands, it is not really a reasonable title or point.

"/thread" isn't adding anything of any value to a thread. Your response here is fine, the prior one wasn't.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: LilRip on September 19, 2017, 03:33:55 PM
I fully expect Kyrie to miss time during the reg season. If he plays around 70 games, that's fine. It's the playoffs that count and I don't think he misses much time (if any) in the playoffs.

I'm not even thinking about IT anymore. There's plenty of reasons to be excited for the season. I'd much rather focus on Kyrie, Hayward, Smart, Brown, etc. for this upcoming season!
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Smitty77 on September 19, 2017, 03:45:10 PM
But, seriously guys (and gals), how many of those games were LEGITIMATE injuries and not just "injuries" to rest a star and keep him fresh for the playoffs??  Do you REALLY believe that the Cavs did not do that?

Smitty77
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Big333223 on September 19, 2017, 03:59:12 PM
I don't have any concerns about Kyrie's talent, his personality, or his style of play. I'm excited to see him in green.

But his durability is a real concern for me. He's never played more than 75 games. In a 6 year career he's missed between 23-31 games 3 times. It's not a huge worry but it's there.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: SparzWizard on September 19, 2017, 04:02:54 PM
Lol wow can't believe there are some people here who're still sour over the trade.

Accept the reality- Irving is our starting PG today, tomorrow and for years to come.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: incoherent on September 19, 2017, 04:21:12 PM
Lol wow can't believe there are some people here who're still sour over the trade.

Accept the reality- Irving is our starting PG today, tomorrow and for years to come.

They will accept it I think they just have to see it first.  Right now everyone is going off emotion to the point where threads are dedicated to the idea that Irving is more of a health risk then IT, which is an absolutely ridiculous notion contrived from heart ache.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Roy H. on September 19, 2017, 04:26:36 PM
  Right now everyone is going off emotion to the point where threads are dedicated to the idea that Irving is more of a health risk then IT, which is an absolutely ridiculous notion contrived from heart ache.

Or, contrived from straw? Is there such a thread? I haven't seen it.
Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: incoherent on September 19, 2017, 04:26:49 PM
Person 1: "I think the healthy guy who plays in the Finals the last two years is actually less healthy then the older injured player who wont be ready for the start of the season"

Person 2: "I also did not like the Kyrie trade and I agree with you"

Title: Re: IT maybe "damaged goods" but so is Irving....
Post by: Roy H. on September 19, 2017, 04:34:57 PM
Person 1: "I think the healthy guy who plays in the Finals the last two years is actually less healthy then the older injured player who wont be ready for the start of the season"

Person 2: "I also did not like the Kyrie trade and I agree with you"

Again, nobody is actually saying this though.