CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rollie mass on September 17, 2017, 04:46:13 AM
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Did Isaiah bring this on himself in his quest for the max as a measure of success?Was the not drafting Fultz what got trainers and physio replaced?Was Ainge forced into a corner with these events and only rescued by Irving trade.Did Isaiah's agent ever address the Cap and managements timeline and fears of Isaiahs skills degrading ?The public promotion of MAX using his fan popularity would become polarising.
If Ainge knew the severity of Isaiahs injury back at time of draft, wouldn't he be forced to take Fultz and keep our Nets pick?
Ainge had no choice but to trade and let somebody else deal with MAX issue while getting a mercurial 4 times all star, that also eased Fultz swap.
No wonder training and medical team got replaced ,a mistake on their part jeopardised the rebuild
.If we had gone half the season with all the new players without a all star point guard and then the free agent market price that ainge was NOT going to do match.
Isaiah should leave that legacy untarnished for it was truly historical-even this ending.
Ainge was forced as GM to make the hardestcall but in the end it was a FORCE MAJEURE
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What I am intrigued about is what will happen with Tatum long term, Hayward can't be defensive stopper next to Irving going forward and Tatum won't want to be a power forward for the rest of his career so is he our 6th man for the next 4-5 years?
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The trainer's were fired because they mismanaged ITs hip.
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The trainer's were fired because they mismanaged ITs hip.
I don't think it had anything to do with this.
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What I am intrigued about is what will happen with Tatum long term, Hayward can't be defensive stopper next to Irving going forward and Tatum won't want to be a power forward for the rest of his career so is he our 6th man for the next 4-5 years?
I think he'll play lots of four.
It's just like playing two or three these days, so he should use the opportunity to his advantage.
I think Brad see's Smart as our defensive stopper alongside Kyrie, with Jaylen in the mix to guard the Lebrons PG's and KD's of the world.
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Did Isaiah bring this on himself in his quest for the max as a measure of success?Was the not drafting Fultz what got trainers and physio replaced?Was Ainge forced into a corner with these events and only rescued by Irving trade.Did Isaiah's agent ever address the Cap and managements timeline and fears of Isaiahs skills degrading ?The public promotion of MAX using his fan popularity would become polarising.
If Ainge knew the severity of Isaiahs injury back at time of draft, wouldn't he be forced to take Fultz and keep our Nets pick?
Ainge had no choice but to trade and let somebody else deal with MAX issue while getting a mercurial 4 times all star, that also eased Fultz swap.
No wonder training and medical team got replaced ,a mistake on their part jeopardised the rebuild
.If we had gone half the season with all the new players without a all star point guard and then the free agent market price that ainge was NOT going to do match.
Isaiah should leave that legacy untarnished for it was truly historical-even this ending.
Ainge was forced as GM to make the hardestcall but in the end it was a FORCED MAJEURE
TP Rollie
Love the theory. I'm not sure we will ever get the truth about this but it certainly is a possible sequence of events. I agree that it is unlikely Ainge passes up 3 top shelf PG prospects in the draft if he knows his all star guy isn't healthy. He's a gambler, but not a fool.
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I too think IT's Brinks truck comments might have had something to do with it. I thought they were ridiculous and stupid when he 1st started saying them. And I think paying even a healthy IT a max would be stupid as well. I love what IT did the last 2.5 years but there is no way in hell this guy should get a max. None, no way, nada.
And I too was wondering about the coincidence of IT's injury and the medical staff being fired. Does see like there might be something there.
And I think Danny was bailed out on the IT situation with Kyrie's demand. Maybe God does look out for the C's !
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I too think IT's Brinks truck comments might have had something to do with it. I thought they were ridiculous and stupid when he 1st started saying them. And I think paying even a healthy IT a max would be stupid as well. I love what IT did the last 2.5 years but there is no way in hell this guy should get a max. None, no way, nada.
And I too was wondering about the coincidence of IT's injury and the medical staff being fired. Does see like there might be something there.
And I think Danny was bailed out on the IT situation with Kyrie's demand. Maybe God does look out for the C's !
I loved our team with IT at the helm last year.
That said, no way I give him the max next season. He had a career year and got benefits from our team and system to get him there. That doesn't qualify anyone for a max contract. I also agree he was immediately going on the block after the Brinks truck comment and Danny quickly pulled the trigger when Kyrie became available.
God does love the Celtics
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Did Isaiah bring this on himself in his quest for the max as a measure of success?Was the not drafting Fultz what got trainers and physio replaced?Was Ainge forced into a corner with these events and only rescued by Irving trade.Did Isaiah's agent ever address the Cap and managements timeline and fears of Isaiahs skills degrading ?The public promotion of MAX using his fan popularity would become polarising.
If Ainge knew the severity of Isaiahs injury back at time of draft, wouldn't he be forced to take Fultz and keep our Nets pick?
Ainge had no choice but to trade and let somebody else deal with MAX issue while getting a mercurial 4 times all star, that also eased Fultz swap.
No wonder training and medical team got replaced ,a mistake on their part jeopardised the rebuild
.If we had gone half the season with all the new players without a all star point guard and then the free agent market price that ainge was NOT going to do match.
Isaiah should leave that legacy untarnished for it was truly historical-even this ending.
Ainge was forced as GM to make the hardestcall but in the end it was a FORCED MAJEURE
TP Rollie
Love the theory. I'm not sure we will ever get the truth about this but it certainly is a possible sequence of events. I agree that it is unlikely Ainge passes up 3 top shelf PG prospects in the draft if he knows his all star guy isn't healthy. He's a gambler, but not a fool.
Without the Kyrie trade this season could have been a major letdown. I'm convinced Danny would have drafted Fultz if he had known the severity of IT's hip. When he did find out, heads rolled on the medical staff. That's their job to be on top of this. I'm not placing all blame on them, as the specialists are just as complicit. But Ainge depends on the med/training staff to be his eyes/ears/brains on this. He isn't a doctor.
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Danny has to give a lot of points credit.
Yes, we were best record in east and made ECF. And there got spanked.
But there is at least question whether we make it out of the first round, healthy Rondo. In this case, we're a regular season overachiever, 1st round out. If that's peak, it's an automatic rebuild.
We went 7 against a solid Wiz team. Hard to say one is solidly over the other if it goes 7, IMO. Say there's a point for calling it a draw.
Never was sold on a big 3 of Horford, who missed so many bunnies at key moments and is aging, and IT as main stars. With this crazy rebuild of 2017, now I think with Irving and Hayward, plus Horford as 3rd dude, I like that better. Rather than veteran role player filler, I like Rozier, Smart, Brown (each now with playoff experience), and Tatum. These guys perform and we contend now, or learn and we contend later.
Heck of a rebuild. Ainge should get GM of the year.
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I agree that Thomas brought this on himself but not because of what he said, because of how well he played on the court. Last season, he played himself into a position where anything less than a max contract would've been below him. But at his age and size, Ainge (and a lot of Celtic fans, including the ones who love IT) didn't want to give him a max contract. So Ainge found a younger, bigger, even more dynamic PG he can feel comfortable building around for the long term.
I think too much is made about Thomas and his brinks truck. Of course he wants a big contract, he was top 5 in MVP voting last year. He was awesome and deserved that consideration. The problem wasn't that he asked for it, the problem was the he deserved it for his play.
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Heck of a rebuild. Ainge should get GM of the year.
Love to see it, but won't happen if we don't exceed last year's performance.
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Isaiah and his agent are to blame because they signed a deal in 2014 for 4 years when IT was 25.
The deal created an obvious awkward position for the next contract coming up at age 29, especially given that IT had never earned serious money until that point. Regardless of where he was at his career, this was going to cause problems. All players should put themselves in position where they can sign at age 26 or 27. Getting off that sweet spot is a problem, particularly for a guy that small.
Even Ainge has some blame here, because he put himself and IT in this spot too. Perhaps he was just so thrilled to lock a quality player into a cost controlled deal that he didn't worry about the end game, but it just didn't work.
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wasn't there also some thread here about IT and the Lakers that miffed some fans?
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wasn't there also some thread here about IT and the Lakers that miffed some fans?
He grew up being a Lakers fan (like Pierce) and said he deserves a max and that while he'd love to stay in BOS long term, he knows it's a business and it's not guaranteed.
I really don't know how that managed to miff fans though. I know the thread you're talking about and that still puzzled me. What IT said at the time was 100% correct.
And I mean, lets say IT was healthy but C's weren't willing to give him max, and say a team like Lakers did and IT chose to go there. It's his fault how? That he isn't loyal? BWAHAAHA. What have we learned these past 3 months people...
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Isaiah and his agent are to blame because they signed a deal in 2014 for 4 years when IT was 25.
The deal created an obvious awkward position for the next contract coming up at age 29, especially given that IT had never earned serious money until that point. Regardless of where he was at his career, this was going to cause problems. All players should put themselves in position where they can sign at age 26 or 27. Getting off that sweet spot is a problem, particularly for a guy that small.
Even Ainge has some blame here, because he put himself and IT in this spot too. Perhaps he was just so thrilled to lock a quality player into a cost controlled deal that he didn't worry about the end game, but it just didn't work.
Can't see how Ainge deserves blame here. He bought low on IT, Stevens turned him into a top 3 scorer in the league. He got injured and Danny flipped him and other assets for a top 10 player in the league that's 25. Well done.
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The trainer's were fired because they mismanaged ITs hip.
^ This is what it think too. Long time trainer's seldom suddenly get fired or no apparent reason. IT's hip was the elephant in the room for the Celtic organization.
I don't ever think Danny was gonna pay IT max money off of one great season, knowing full well he was a one trick pony. But by IT continually mentioning it in the press, I'm sure it didn't help.
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Isaiah and his agent are to blame because they signed a deal in 2014 for 4 years when IT was 25.
The deal created an obvious awkward position for the next contract coming up at age 29, especially given that IT had never earned serious money until that point. Regardless of where he was at his career, this was going to cause problems. All players should put themselves in position where they can sign at age 26 or 27. Getting off that sweet spot is a problem, particularly for a guy that small.
Even Ainge has some blame here, because he put himself and IT in this spot too. Perhaps he was just so thrilled to lock a quality player into a cost controlled deal that he didn't worry about the end game, but it just didn't work.
Can't see how Ainge deserves blame here. He bought low on IT, Stevens turned him into a top 3 scorer in the league. He got injured and Danny flipped him and other assets for a top 10 player in the league that's 25. Well done.
What's not to understand? Ainge structured a contract deal that resulted in IT coming up as a free agent at 29. That was not great situation for the team.
It still worked out, and we don't know if a shorter 1st deal would have worked out as well. But he did have a hand in shaping what IT's "window" was.
--edit - Mistakenly thought Ainge negotiated ITs last contract. He didn't. My bad
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a force majeure by definition-unforeseeable circumstances that prevent someone from fulfilling a contract
Danny was faced with a moral contract of sorts but that injury and rehab without an assurance that it was healed properly and would hold up without a further operation was too much for the rebuild .Danny showed his faith in Isaiah by not drafting Fultz and then he finds out it is worse than expected and Isaiah would maybe be out till Christmas or need an operation.The Brinks truck, the shoes and using the press to negotiate.So its a force majeure on that moral contract.
The Celtics got lucky with Irving trade demand.
Just imagine worst case Isaiah with diminished skills and the Celts stuck with a max contract.
The fans will forever remember his time with the celts.
Crowder and Isaiah might get a ring or play in finals-it could have been much worse
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a force majeure by definition-unforeseeable circumstances that prevent someone from fulfilling a contract
Danny was faced with a moral contract of sorts but that injury and rehab without an assurance that it was healed properly and would hold up without a further operation was too much for the rebuild .Danny showed his faith in Isaiah by not drafting Fultz and then he finds out it is worse than expected and Isaiah would maybe be out till Christmas or need an operation.The Brinks truck, the shoes and using the press to negotiate.So its a force majeure on that moral contract.
The Celtics got lucky with Irving trade demand.
Just imagine worst case Isaiah with diminished skills and the Celts stuck with a max contract.
The fans will forever remember his time with the celts.
Crowder and Isaiah might get a ring or play in finals-it could have been much worse
Good points rollie with a diminished Isaiah the C's are no better than last year. It looks less likely that IT would remain in allstar form for long, if he regained it at all. Irving is a fairly safe bet, and lucky we could offer a generous package for Irving. We got no bargain, but we are much better for having him.
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Isaiah and his agent are to blame because they signed a deal in 2014 for 4 years when IT was 25.
The deal created an obvious awkward position for the next contract coming up at age 29, especially given that IT had never earned serious money until that point. Regardless of where he was at his career, this was going to cause problems. All players should put themselves in position where they can sign at age 26 or 27. Getting off that sweet spot is a problem, particularly for a guy that small.
Even Ainge has some blame here, because he put himself and IT in this spot too. Perhaps he was just so thrilled to lock a quality player into a cost controlled deal that he didn't worry about the end game, but it just didn't work.
Can't see how Ainge deserves blame here. He bought low on IT, Stevens turned him into a top 3 scorer in the league. He got injured and Danny flipped him and other assets for a top 10 player in the league that's 25. Well done.
What's not to understand? Ainge structured a contract deal that resulted in IT coming up as a free agent at 29. That was not great situation for the team.
It still worked out, and we don't know if a shorter 1st deal would have worked out as well. But he did have a hand in shaping what IT's "window" was.
Ni, he didn't. IT signed with the Suns in the summer if 2014. Danny had nothing to do with the contract he got.
The only way Danny could have changed IT'IT'S contract would have been by extending him (which would not have been able to increase IT's salary to an acceptable level), or renogotiating his contract (which would have required using cap space). It's not Danny's fault at all
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Isaiah and his agent are to blame because they signed a deal in 2014 for 4 years when IT was 25.
The deal created an obvious awkward position for the next contract coming up at age 29, especially given that IT had never earned serious money until that point. Regardless of where he was at his career, this was going to cause problems. All players should put themselves in position where they can sign at age 26 or 27. Getting off that sweet spot is a problem, particularly for a guy that small.
Even Ainge has some blame here, because he put himself and IT in this spot too. Perhaps he was just so thrilled to lock a quality player into a cost controlled deal that he didn't worry about the end game, but it just didn't work.
Can't see how Ainge deserves blame here. He bought low on IT, Stevens turned him into a top 3 scorer in the league. He got injured and Danny flipped him and other assets for a top 10 player in the league that's 25. Well done.
What's not to understand? Ainge structured a contract deal that resulted in IT coming up as a free agent at 29. That was not great situation for the team.
It still worked out, and we don't know if a shorter 1st deal would have worked out as well. But he did have a hand in shaping what IT's "window" was.
Ni, he didn't. IT signed with the Suns in the summer if 2014. Danny had nothing to do with the contract he got.
The only way Danny could have changed IT'IT'S contract would have been by extending him (which would not have been able to increase IT's salary to an acceptable level), or renogotiating his contract (which would have required using cap space). It's not Danny's fault at all
You're right, my mistake
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Isaiah and his agent are to blame because they signed a deal in 2014 for 4 years when IT was 25.
The deal created an obvious awkward position for the next contract coming up at age 29, especially given that IT had never earned serious money until that point. Regardless of where he was at his career, this was going to cause problems. All players should put themselves in position where they can sign at age 26 or 27. Getting off that sweet spot is a problem, particularly for a guy that small.
Even Ainge has some blame here, because he put himself and IT in this spot too. Perhaps he was just so thrilled to lock a quality player into a cost controlled deal that he didn't worry about the end game, but it just didn't work.
Can't see how Ainge deserves blame here. He bought low on IT, Stevens turned him into a top 3 scorer in the league. He got injured and Danny flipped him and other assets for a top 10 player in the league that's 25. Well done.
1. Stevens didn’t turn IT into a top 3 scorer, IT turned IT into a top 3 scorer. Stevens put him in a position where he could succeed, and he did. IT gets the credit for elevating his game.
2. Kyrie isn’t a top 10 player, so don’t label him as one. Hopefully he’ll get there one day, but as of now, you can say Ainge flipped IT and other assets for a top 20 player. I think most can agree Kyrie is top 20, except for the folks down at ESPN ::)
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Isaiah and his agent are to blame because they signed a deal in 2014 for 4 years when IT was 25.
The deal created an obvious awkward position for the next contract coming up at age 29, especially given that IT had never earned serious money until that point. Regardless of where he was at his career, this was going to cause problems. All players should put themselves in position where they can sign at age 26 or 27. Getting off that sweet spot is a problem, particularly for a guy that small.
Even Ainge has some blame here, because he put himself and IT in this spot too. Perhaps he was just so thrilled to lock a quality player into a cost controlled deal that he didn't worry about the end game, but it just didn't work.
Can't see how Ainge deserves blame here. He bought low on IT, Stevens turned him into a top 3 scorer in the league. He got injured and Danny flipped him and other assets for a top 10 player in the league that's 25. Well done.
Why are so many people giving credit to Stevens for IT's development and season last year? What, its not possible that an almost 20PPG scorer prior to being here couldn't work himself into being the player IT became last year? IT was an efficient scorer before he got here and had a career year. Isn't just possible that was because IT worked his ass off and became that much better by himself?
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Isaiah and his agent are to blame because they signed a deal in 2014 for 4 years when IT was 25.
The deal created an obvious awkward position for the next contract coming up at age 29, especially given that IT had never earned serious money until that point. Regardless of where he was at his career, this was going to cause problems. All players should put themselves in position where they can sign at age 26 or 27. Getting off that sweet spot is a problem, particularly for a guy that small.
Even Ainge has some blame here, because he put himself and IT in this spot too. Perhaps he was just so thrilled to lock a quality player into a cost controlled deal that he didn't worry about the end game, but it just didn't work.
Can't see how Ainge deserves blame here. He bought low on IT, Stevens turned him into a top 3 scorer in the league. He got injured and Danny flipped him and other assets for a top 10 player in the league that's 25. Well done.
Why are so many people giving credit to Stevens for IT's development and season last year? What, its not possible that an almost 20PPG scorer prior to being here couldn't work himself into being the player IT became last year? IT was an efficient scorer before he got here and had a career year. Isn't just possible that was because IT worked his ass off and became that much better by himself?
While I dont agree with others that "Stevens made IT", I also do not agree that he got better by himself alone. There is a little bit of credit to Stevens, and even IT has said so.
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Did Isaiah bring this on himself in his quest for the max as a measure of success?Was the not drafting Fultz what got trainers and physio replaced?Was Ainge forced into a corner with these events and only rescued by Irving trade.Did Isaiah's agent ever address the Cap and managements timeline and fears of Isaiahs skills degrading ?The public promotion of MAX using his fan popularity would become polarising.
If Ainge knew the severity of Isaiahs injury back at time of draft, wouldn't he be forced to take Fultz and keep our Nets pick?
Ainge had no choice but to trade and let somebody else deal with MAX issue while getting a mercurial 4 times all star, that also eased Fultz swap.
No wonder training and medical team got replaced ,a mistake on their part jeopardised the rebuild
.If we had gone half the season with all the new players without a all star point guard and then the free agent market price that ainge was NOT going to do match.
Isaiah should leave that legacy untarnished for it was truly historical-even this ending.
Ainge was forced as GM to make the hardestcall but in the end it was a FORCE MAJEURE
he did
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Celtics were in a rough spot, but I think they wouldve offered Thomas a 3 year max as a bridge player. Do you let him walk and roll out with Marcus smart as your PG? ainge was in a corner either way.
Then Kyrie became available and ainge pounced because as kept being mentioned numerous times "he fits our timeline better"
I think the medical staff mismanaged IT's injury. word originally was he would be back by training camp, now its after the all-star break. thats a big difference. And how often do you hear of an injury that is prescribed for almost 9months of REST. surgery yes, but not just rest/rehab.
I think to say Stevens had nothing to do with it(or everything to do with it) is incorrect. Obviously the talent is there as a scorer. But Brad created a system built around his strengths that gave him the opportunity to be that player.
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Isaiah and his agent are to blame because they signed a deal in 2014 for 4 years when IT was 25.
The deal created an obvious awkward position for the next contract coming up at age 29, especially given that IT had never earned serious money until that point. Regardless of where he was at his career, this was going to cause problems. All players should put themselves in position where they can sign at age 26 or 27. Getting off that sweet spot is a problem, particularly for a guy that small.
Even Ainge has some blame here, because he put himself and IT in this spot too. Perhaps he was just so thrilled to lock a quality player into a cost controlled deal that he didn't worry about the end game, but it just didn't work.
Can't see how Ainge deserves blame here. He bought low on IT, Stevens turned him into a top 3 scorer in the league. He got injured and Danny flipped him and other assets for a top 10 player in the league that's 25. Well done.
Why are so many people giving credit to Stevens for IT's development and season last year? What, its not possible that an almost 20PPG scorer prior to being here couldn't work himself into being the player IT became last year? IT was an efficient scorer before he got here and had a career year. Isn't just possible that was because IT worked his ass off and became that much better by himself?
I think a lot of people are looking at that Phoenix half season as Isaiah being a bench player who averaged 15ppg because of the other talented guards he was playing with. The season before that he was a young guy who averaged 20 and 6. He would have kept improving on that if he were in a decent situation even without Stevens.
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I started a thread about this a few months ago that went unnoticed, but I really don't understand how IT is going to get a max contract next year unless it is a team with his bird rights. Last 2 years, most teams with cap space wasted all or most of their cap space by giving role players a jump in free agent contracts to reflect the elevated cap space. There are also a lot of big name free agents next year as well. Even if Danny kept IT, I think he could have waited it out and signed IT to a non-max contract once IT realizes that there are no other max offers in the market.
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Isaiah and his agent are to blame because they signed a deal in 2014 for 4 years when IT was 25.
The deal created an obvious awkward position for the next contract coming up at age 29, especially given that IT had never earned serious money until that point. Regardless of where he was at his career, this was going to cause problems. All players should put themselves in position where they can sign at age 26 or 27. Getting off that sweet spot is a problem, particularly for a guy that small.
Even Ainge has some blame here, because he put himself and IT in this spot too. Perhaps he was just so thrilled to lock a quality player into a cost controlled deal that he didn't worry about the end game, but it just didn't work.
Can't see how Ainge deserves blame here. He bought low on IT, Stevens turned him into a top 3 scorer in the league. He got injured and Danny flipped him and other assets for a top 10 player in the league that's 25. Well done.
Why are so many people giving credit to Stevens for IT's development and season last year? What, its not possible that an almost 20PPG scorer prior to being here couldn't work himself into being the player IT became last year? IT was an efficient scorer before he got here and had a career year. Isn't just possible that was because IT worked his ass off and became that much better by himself?
I think a lot of people are looking at that Phoenix half season as Isaiah being a bench player who averaged 15ppg because of the other talented guards he was playing with. The season before that he was a young guy who averaged 20 and 6. He would have kept improving on that if he were in a decent situation even without Stevens.
But then, Isaiah would be just another empty scorer on a bad team. He never impacted team wins until Stevens put him as the primary scoring option for the Celtics.
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The last two guys who used the Brinks truck and got injured were traded. Rondo and IT. Ainge must get skittish with those comments. I agree that it forced Ainge to act.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
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Kyries availability was a force majeure.
Brinks truck was the issue. Players like IT (ones that feel underpaid) prioritize earning, not that surprising at all. DA would sign him, but to be the 6th man of the next dynasty we are building, not the franchise guy. (Let's not fool ourselves, he wouldn't lead us to the promised land as the no. 1 option.)
Isaiah's height, defense, and longevity/performance question due to the hip injury were the other forces that made the deal work.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
Then opposing GMs are idiotic.
Healthy Top-5 MVP candidates and 2nd Team All-NBA players deserve the max. I don't care if a guy is 4'11"; if he puts up scoring and efficiency numbers like IT, he should be making max money. That's saying nothing of the leadership, the toughness, the clutchness, leading an elite passing offense, etc.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
The time when your boss sends you to a firm that has a much better chance to pay you the longterm money you seek (IT's priority), and to a team with (nominally) better chances for winning the championship (ultimate professional goal) this year, it doesn't qualify as punishment to me.
Not a tear shed, for the millionaire's financial "problems", on my part. BTW the millionaire, who signed his previous contract at his full health, sanity and didn't have a gun pointed to his head during the signing ceremony. He deserves NONE of my sympathies in that regard, even though I am deceiving myself to be an empathic person in real life.
He was a good, a great Celtic, now I want to see the new guys that are actually Celtics.
Smart can also choose, ∼44/4y and be winning here for 10 years or getting bigger money somewhere in wastelands of the league.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
Oh, someone would have offered IT max money. No doubt. Guys who score 29ppg and are faces of franchises don't grow on trees. I believe he wold have gotten quite a few max offers if he made it through most of next season at the same production rate.
But I also agree with your point. A contract to IT for max money would be very risky. Even if healthy, his size and pinball-style of play can't hold up for very long in this league. If it wasn't his hip now, it would be his knee next month. Or his back next year. Worse, because of his size his margin for error is so very slight - as soon as he loses a step he's Eddie House because he simply won't be able to get his shot off in the lane anymore. That's why I understand why Danny got Irving even if I'm as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs about it. The deal for Irving is risky given the huge amount we gave up to get him but keeping IT was also very risky. Danny chose Door #1.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
Oh, someone would have offered IT max money. No doubt. Guys who score 29ppg and are faces of franchises don't grow on trees. I believe he wold have gotten quite a few max offers if he made it through most of next season at the same production rate.
But I also agree with your point. A contract to IT for max money would be very risky. Even if healthy, his size and pinball-style of play can't hold up for very long in this league. If it wasn't his hip now, it would be his knee next month. Or his back next year. Worse, because of his size his margin for error is so very slight - as soon as he loses a step he's Eddie House because he simply won't be able to get his shot off in the lane anymore. That's why I understand why Danny got Irving even if I'm as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs about it. The deal for Irving is risky given the huge amount we gave up to get him but keeping IT was also very risky. Danny chose Door #1.
For me, it's all about sustained performance and good health here. One doesnt out weigh the other, they are cumulative. IT was in a position of his first year performing as an all star and mvp candidate when he got hurt. Prior to that he was a nice player who pushed the pace and could score. You could easily argue that he had a career year he was unlikely to produce again do to mitigating factors. The stars suddenly aligned for Danny and he had a chance to off load a guy who would think he deserved the max on his next contract and acquire a top level talent who was younger, healthy and proven. Simply a business decision.
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IT was in a position of his first year performing as an all star and mvp candidate when he got hurt.
He was an all-star the prior year, too.
He's always been very good. Through their first six seasons IT's stats are almost identical to Kyrie's.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.fcgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1_hint=Kyrie+Irving&player_id1_select=Kyrie+Irving&y1=2017&player_id1=irvinky01&idx=players&player_id2_hint=Isaiah+Thomas&player_id2_select=Isaiah+Thomas&y2=2017&player_id2=thomais02&idx=players
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But he wasn't an mvp candidate.
Do all players that are first or second time all stars deserve max contracts?
That's not realistic and will not happen.
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But he wasn't an mvp candidate.
Do all players that are first or second time all stars deserve max contracts?
That's not realistic and will not happen.
Well, Hayward just got a max contract despite being a one-time all-star. I'd hazard a guess that most multiple-time all-stars coming off All-NBA seasons who have averaged Kyrie Irving numbers over the course of their careers do indeed earn max contracts, yes.
The injurychanged things, but prior to that IT was a bonafide max-worthy player.
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But he wasn't an mvp candidate.
Do all players that are first or second time all stars deserve max contracts?
That's not realistic and will not happen.
Thomas finished 5th in MVP voting.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
Then opposing GMs are idiotic.
Healthy Top-5 MVP candidates and 2nd Team All-NBA players deserve the max. I don't care if a guy is 4'11"; if he puts up scoring and efficiency numbers like IT, he should be making max money. That's saying nothing of the leadership, the toughness, the clutchness, leading an elite passing offense, etc.
The thing is, which team was going to offer him that contract? Not that many teams will have cap space next summer, some that do have PG's, and others are rebuilding and not a realistic location for Thomas. There were at most 3 teams that would have interest in Thomas outside of Boston and there realistically could have been 0. Thomas was (and still is) very unlikely to get a max contract next summer from anyone other than the team he was playing on, so why would that team offer him that.
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Isaiah and his agent are to blame because they signed a deal in 2014 for 4 years when IT was 25.
The deal created an obvious awkward position for the next contract coming up at age 29, especially given that IT had never earned serious money until that point. Regardless of where he was at his career, this was going to cause problems. All players should put themselves in position where they can sign at age 26 or 27. Getting off that sweet spot is a problem, particularly for a guy that small.
Even Ainge has some blame here, because he put himself and IT in this spot too. Perhaps he was just so thrilled to lock a quality player into a cost controlled deal that he didn't worry about the end game, but it just didn't work.
Can't see how Ainge deserves blame here. He bought low on IT, Stevens turned him into a top 3 scorer in the league. He got injured and Danny flipped him and other assets for a top 10 player in the league that's 25. Well done.
1. Stevens didn’t turn IT into a top 3 scorer, IT turned IT into a top 3 scorer. Stevens put him in a position where he could succeed, and he did. IT gets the credit for elevating his game.
2. Kyrie isn’t a top 10 player, so don’t label him as one. Hopefully he’ll get there one day, but as of now, you can say Ainge flipped IT and other assets for a top 20 player. I think most can agree Kyrie is top 20, except for the folks down at ESPN ::)
If you don't believe that Coach Stevens had a hand in helping IT have the greatest year of his career, then I don't believe you are giving him the credit he deserves.
Stevens built the offense around IT's abilities...where most players are pigeon holed into what their coach wants to do. That was a decision that a GOOD coach makes with the talent that he has on his team.
Coach gets the best out of his team, while helping each individual use their talents to reach that best level. C'mon man, throw Stevens a bone here! :)
Rak
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
If healthy I am convinced IT would have gotten a 4 year max. Now if Ainge didn't want to give him that money and traded a healthy IT in the Kyrie trade, I doubt we would have traded the Brooklyn pick.
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This was win win for everybody-Crowder and Thomas are on a contender and Irving is on a young contender with team players and one coach-Irving fits well with Hayward and Horford.
Isaiah has the luxury of taking his time recovering not watching his team struggle and rushing back.
Crowder will not have to watch his minutes given to Hayward,Jaylen,Jayson even Morris.He gets to play an important part on a team favored to face the Warriors -some players never get that opportunity to play for a title or with best player in NBA.
This was a golden parachute for these two.
The Nets pick that is a loss but we have a young 4 time all star-NOW
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
If healthy I am convinced IT would have gotten a 4 year max. Now if Ainge didn't want to give him that money and traded a healthy IT in the Kyrie trade, I doubt we would have traded the Brooklyn pick.
from who? who was/is giving Thomas that contract?
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If you don't believe that Coach Stevens had a hand in helping IT have the greatest year of his career, then I don't believe you are giving him the credit he deserves.
Does Ty Lue get credit for Kyrie having his best year last season? What percentage is Lue, and what percentage is Kyrie?
I give CBS credit for recognizing what an amazing player he had, but the level of play is due to IT.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
If healthy I am convinced IT would have gotten a 4 year max. Now if Ainge didn't want to give him that money and traded a healthy IT in the Kyrie trade, I doubt we would have traded the Brooklyn pick.
from who? who was/is giving Thomas that contract?
He'd look great in Dallas.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
If healthy I am convinced IT would have gotten a 4 year max. Now if Ainge didn't want to give him that money and traded a healthy IT in the Kyrie trade, I doubt we would have traded the Brooklyn pick.
from who? who was/is giving Thomas that contract?
He'd look great in Dallas.
They just drafted Dennis Smith.
Any other team?
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
If healthy I am convinced IT would have gotten a 4 year max. Now if Ainge didn't want to give him that money and traded a healthy IT in the Kyrie trade, I doubt we would have traded the Brooklyn pick.
from who? who was/is giving Thomas that contract?
He'd look great in Dallas.
They just drafted Dennis Smith.
Any other team?
Plenty of them. Pacers. Hawks. Bulls. Lakers, depending on how things shake out for them.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
If healthy I am convinced IT would have gotten a 4 year max. Now if Ainge didn't want to give him that money and traded a healthy IT in the Kyrie trade, I doubt we would have traded the Brooklyn pick.
from who? who was/is giving Thomas that contract?
He'd look great in Dallas.
They just drafted Dennis Smith.
Any other team?
Plenty of them. Pacers. Hawks. Bulls. Lakers, depending on how things shake out for them.
why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract? Lakers I could see, but with Ball, I don't really see the fit. The Pacers, Hawks, and Bulls are going to be bad rebuilding teams, what use is Thomas to them?
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
If healthy I am convinced IT would have gotten a 4 year max. Now if Ainge didn't want to give him that money and traded a healthy IT in the Kyrie trade, I doubt we would have traded the Brooklyn pick.
from who? who was/is giving Thomas that contract?
He'd look great in Dallas.
They just drafted Dennis Smith.
Any other team?
Plenty of them. Pacers. Hawks. Bulls. Lakers, depending on how things shake out for them.
That's the problem, though. 3 of those teams have PGs (Schroeder, Dunn, Ball). The Pacers could be an option, but the feeling has to be mutual. They do have Joseph, Collison, and Oladipo (who they'll use some at the 1). A lot of PGs in the league and Thomas has 4 things against him - age, injury, size, and the contract he's looking for.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
If healthy I am convinced IT would have gotten a 4 year max. Now if Ainge didn't want to give him that money and traded a healthy IT in the Kyrie trade, I doubt we would have traded the Brooklyn pick.
from who? who was/is giving Thomas that contract?
He'd look great in Dallas.
They just drafted Dennis Smith.
Any other team?
Plenty of them. Pacers. Hawks. Bulls. Lakers, depending on how things shake out for them.
why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract? Lakers I could see, but with Ball, I don't really see the fit. The Pacers, Hawks, and Bulls are going to be bad rebuilding teams, what use is Thomas to them?
Exactly. It's going to be a tough market for him. The Brinks truck is going to 3/4 empty.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
If healthy I am convinced IT would have gotten a 4 year max. Now if Ainge didn't want to give him that money and traded a healthy IT in the Kyrie trade, I doubt we would have traded the Brooklyn pick.
from who? who was/is giving Thomas that contract?
He'd look great in Dallas.
They just drafted Dennis Smith.
Any other team?
Plenty of them. Pacers. Hawks. Bulls. Lakers, depending on how things shake out for them.
why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract? Lakers I could see, but with Ball, I don't really see the fit. The Pacers, Hawks, and Bulls are going to be bad rebuilding teams, what use is Thomas to them?
Talent. Leadership. To lure other free agents. Ticket sales.
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
If healthy I am convinced IT would have gotten a 4 year max. Now if Ainge didn't want to give him that money and traded a healthy IT in the Kyrie trade, I doubt we would have traded the Brooklyn pick.
from who? who was/is giving Thomas that contract?
He'd look great in Dallas.
They just drafted Dennis Smith.
Any other team?
Plenty of them. Pacers. Hawks. Bulls. Lakers, depending on how things shake out for them.
why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract? Lakers I could see, but with Ball, I don't really see the fit. The Pacers, Hawks, and Bulls are going to be bad rebuilding teams, what use is Thomas to them?
Exactly. It's going to be a tough market for him. The Brinks truck is going to 3/4 empty.
If he's signing for the MLE it's even more of a mistake trading him, isn't it?
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My guess is that it was almost exclusively the injury.
It's just plain bad decision-making if IT's public promotion of himself played a part in the decision to trade him. Do we punish guys for seeking what they're worth?
You mean what they THINK they're worth. Because I strongly doubt many, if any, GM's were willing to offer a healthy Thomas a 4 year deal at max money. Age is the biggest factor here and paying Thomas that type of money for 95% of a contract that will be played on the wrong side of 30 is a really bad idea.
If healthy I am convinced IT would have gotten a 4 year max. Now if Ainge didn't want to give him that money and traded a healthy IT in the Kyrie trade, I doubt we would have traded the Brooklyn pick.
from who? who was/is giving Thomas that contract?
He'd look great in Dallas.
They just drafted Dennis Smith.
Any other team?
Plenty of them. Pacers. Hawks. Bulls. Lakers, depending on how things shake out for them.
why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract? Lakers I could see, but with Ball, I don't really see the fit. The Pacers, Hawks, and Bulls are going to be bad rebuilding teams, what use is Thomas to them?
Talent. Leadership. To lure other free agents. Ticket sales.
But those teams all generally have young PG's or only have cap space for 1 max level free agent. why would they use it on Thomas?
I've been saying for awhile Thomas wasn't going to get a max contract next summer, but he might have very well left if he felt slighted by Boston, even for less money elsewhere.
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My fantasy: No one offers IT a decent contract, he agrees to come back to Boston as PG off the bench for min deal. That would be sweet.
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My fantasy: No one offers IT a decent contract, he agrees to come back to Boston as PG off the bench for min deal. That would be sweet.
Why come off the bench when he's better than the guy in front of him?
;)
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I don 't know the exact sequence here, but Ainge sure came out of this smelling like a rose. Irving just about fell into his lap. I don't think he was ready to entrust the PG position to any 19yo kid--not for this team aiming to challenge the Warriors. As for IT's agent, it is customary for agents to look for the best deal for their clients--and for their highest commissions.
I'm sure IT felt underpaid, considering his huge impact on the Celtics. I still hearken back to Zeller's contract-- a scrub who was paid more than IT and other bigger contributors. I'm sure that was a bitter pill to swallow for IT. He now wants to get paid.
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why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract?
This is a business. You want to attract fans. You want to sell merchandise. You want to win games. You sign him to field a decent product. You sign him to put asses in the seats. You sign him so that you can match your 2018 #1 shiny new draft pick with a guy who knows how to win in this league. You sign him so you have someone to put on all the posters and act as the face of the franchise while you go through a transition. You sign him because he can put up almost 30 points a game.
Why does this need to be explained? Or do you believe that the multi-year tanking scenario is the only way to get ahead in this league?
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Yeah none of those teams really likely to offer anything even resembling a large or long contract, so much that talk of a max in the market seems quite far fetched. He would have to be in a situation like Jrue was, in a perfect spot with a team in a pickle.
We could've been in that pickle in 2018, if not for Irving's trade demand.
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why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract?
This is a business. You want to attract fans. You want to sell merchandise. You want to win games. You sign him to field a decent product. You sign him to put asses in the seats. You sign him so that you can match your 2018 #1 shiny new draft pick with a guy who knows how to win in this league. You sign him so you have someone to put on all the posters and act as the face of the franchise while you go through a transition. You sign him because he can put up almost 30 points a game.
Why does this need to be explained? Or do you believe that the multi-year tanking scenario is the only way to get ahead in this league?
You're forgetting:
GMs get fired if they lose too much so they get great free agents to get a winning atmosphere going and...
Not every team believes in the tanking for years at a time philosophy that Philadelphia pulled.
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If you don't believe that Coach Stevens had a hand in helping IT have the greatest year of his career, then I don't believe you are giving him the credit he deserves.
Does Ty Lue get credit for Kyrie having his best year last season? What percentage is Lue, and what percentage is Kyrie?
I give CBS credit for recognizing what an amazing player he had, but the level of play is due to IT.
Kyrie's season wasn't a huge outlier. Definitely his best, but not the type of stratospheric leap that IT made. In any case, I credit the players and view Stevens as the better coach.
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why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract?
This is a business. You want to attract fans. You want to sell merchandise. You want to win games. You sign him to field a decent product. You sign him to put asses in the seats. You sign him so that you can match your 2018 #1 shiny new draft pick with a guy who knows how to win in this league. You sign him so you have someone to put on all the posters and act as the face of the franchise while you go through a transition. You sign him because he can put up almost 30 points a game.
Why does this need to be explained? Or do you believe that the multi-year tanking scenario is the only way to get ahead in this league?
You also don't want to hamstring your team financially or stunt the development of young players. You don't want to win 10 more games but still not make the playoffs. What point does that serve?
And why would Thomas go to one of those rebuilding teams? If the only reason is they offered more money then everyone else, what message does that send those young players and why would you want the franchise to be in the hands of someone who is only about the money?
There are absolutely some teams where Thomas would be a good fit outside of staying in Cleveland (off the top of my head - Milwaukee, San Antonio, Houston (if Paul leaves), Denver, Detroit, the Clippers, and then New York and the Lakers for slightly different reasons). Those teams, by and large, just won't have cap space for a max contract. Now if certain teams take some unexpected jumps this year (not necessarily the playoffs but near them), like Orlando, Phoenix, or Sacramento then maybe they might make some sense and I believe they will all have room for a max contract (or could easily make the room without losing core pieces).
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why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract?
This is a business. You want to attract fans. You want to sell merchandise. You want to win games. You sign him to field a decent product. You sign him to put asses in the seats. You sign him so that you can match your 2018 #1 shiny new draft pick with a guy who knows how to win in this league. You sign him so you have someone to put on all the posters and act as the face of the franchise while you go through a transition. You sign him because he can put up almost 30 points a game.
Why does this need to be explained? Or do you believe that the multi-year tanking scenario is the only way to get ahead in this league?
You also don't want to hamstring your team financially or stunt the development of young players. You don't want to win 10 more games but still not make the playoffs. What point does that serve?
And why would Thomas go to one of those rebuilding teams? If the only reason is they offered more money then everyone else, what message does that send those young players and why would you want the franchise to be in the hands of someone who is only about the money?
There are absolutely some teams where Thomas would be a good fit outside of staying in Cleveland (off the top of my head - Milwaukee, San Antonio, Houston (if Paul leaves), Denver, Detroit, the Clippers, and then New York and the Lakers for slightly different reasons). Those teams, by and large, just won't have cap space for a max contract. Now if certain teams take some unexpected jumps this year (not necessarily the playoffs but near them), like Orlando, Phoenix, or Sacramento then maybe they might make some sense and I believe they will all have room for a max contract (or could easily make the room without losing core pieces).
You just answered your own question. "Why would Thomas go to one of these rebuilding teams?" Because they'd offer him the max! :laugh:
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What I am intrigued about is what will happen with Tatum long term, Hayward can't be defensive stopper next to Irving going forward and Tatum won't want to be a power forward for the rest of his career so is he our 6th man for the next 4-5 years?
Hayward can play either SG or SF equally effectively and Tatum probably can as well, to be honest. He's a pretty solid ball handler and a skilled player - anything he gives up in lateral mobility at the SG spot he'd gain with his size/length (think Joe Johnson / James Posey / Paul Pierce in their 30's - all able to guard three positions despite not being super quick laterally).
I'm also very confident that Tatum will be able to play the small-ball PF spot no problems once he bulks up in the next 12-24 months. He's got the height, the length and the frame for it and he's also a skilled post player and a solid rebounder. Paul Pierce spent a significant amount of time at PF in his last 2-3 seasons and was very effective there. Tatum isn't as strong, but he's taller, just as athletic (if not more) and just as long/wide.
All of this is a big part of why I like Tatum so much as a prospect - his combination of physical talent and natural skill give him the potential to become an incredibly versatile player moving forward.
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If you don't believe that Coach Stevens had a hand in helping IT have the greatest year of his career, then I don't believe you are giving him the credit he deserves.
Does Ty Lue get credit for Kyrie having his best year last season? What percentage is Lue, and what percentage is Kyrie?
I give CBS credit for recognizing what an amazing player he had, but the level of play is due to IT.
Kyrie's season wasn't a huge outlier. Definitely his best, but not the type of stratospheric leap that IT made. In any case, I credit the players and view Stevens as the better coach.
- Isaiah jumped from 22.2 PPG to 28.9 PP (+6.7 PPG)
- Kyrie jumped from 19.6 PPG to 25.2 PPG (+ 5.6 PPG)
Really not that dramatic a difference in all honesty.
Isaiah also benefited from being on a far better team with the addition of Horford (who's playmaking got Thomas many open looks) combined with the offensive improvement of Bradley and Crowder (who both had better shooting years, creating more space for Thomas).
So while Thomas no doubt took his game to another level last season, the fact that he had a much stronger team around him helped too.
By comparison Kyrie's situation really did not change from 15/16 to 16/17 aside from the addition of Kyle Korver (which only happened mid season from memory). Otherwise Cleveland didn't really add anybody worth mentioning, and none of their existing plays improved in any way worth mentioning - Kyrie's improvement was pretty much all him.
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why would a rebuilding team offer Thomas a max contract?
This is a business. You want to attract fans. You want to sell merchandise. You want to win games. You sign him to field a decent product. You sign him to put asses in the seats. You sign him so that you can match your 2018 #1 shiny new draft pick with a guy who knows how to win in this league. You sign him so you have someone to put on all the posters and act as the face of the franchise while you go through a transition. You sign him because he can put up almost 30 points a game.
Why does this need to be explained? Or do you believe that the multi-year tanking scenario is the only way to get ahead in this league?
You also don't want to hamstring your team financially or stunt the development of young players. You don't want to win 10 more games but still not make the playoffs. What point does that serve?
And why would Thomas go to one of those rebuilding teams? If the only reason is they offered more money then everyone else, what message does that send those young players and why would you want the franchise to be in the hands of someone who is only about the money?
There are absolutely some teams where Thomas would be a good fit outside of staying in Cleveland (off the top of my head - Milwaukee, San Antonio, Houston (if Paul leaves), Denver, Detroit, the Clippers, and then New York and the Lakers for slightly different reasons). Those teams, by and large, just won't have cap space for a max contract. Now if certain teams take some unexpected jumps this year (not necessarily the playoffs but near them), like Orlando, Phoenix, or Sacramento then maybe they might make some sense and I believe they will all have room for a max contract (or could easily make the room without losing core pieces).
You just answered your own question. "Why would Thomas go to one of these rebuilding teams?" Because they'd offer him the max! :laugh:
But again, why would they? What exactly does Thomas do for Brooklyn (as an example)? Thomas isn't some mega star that will draw people in because he isn't going to significantly increase any team's win total. All giving him the max does for a team like Brooklyn is win 35 games instead of 25 games (if he makes it through the season) and harms the growth of Russell, puts the team in a financial pickle 3 or 4 years down the road, etc.
I listed teams that might make sense for Thomas, but the vast majority of those just aren't going to have cap room for a max contract.
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I'm very curious as to when Danny became aware of Kyrie's trade request. Was it during the period between the end of the Finals (June 12) and the Draft (June 22)? I believe Danny made the trade with Philadelphia on June 17. Did Danny decide then that he would go all in on Kyrie and pass on Markelle Fultz? He then drafted Tatum (the guy he wanted "all along") and picked up an additional 2018 pick to still remain in next year's lottery, with the idea of possibly trading the much coveted Brooklyn pick for Kyrie.
BTW, here is a good breakdown of the Celtics off season timeline: https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-how-the-celtics-have-transformed-this-summer (https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-how-the-celtics-have-transformed-this-summer)
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I think IT will go to the team that pays him the most money. I think this would be the best move for him. He probably will not being playing basketball into his 40's, so he has a limited time frame to build generational wealth.
I think winning a championship should be the second priority. He can always play for the minimum in his mid 30's (if he's healthy) for a championship team.
And yes, IT will help a rebuilding team win more games. Developing a winning culture is important. I think tanking is a poor strategy that has long-term negative effects. Even if Philly makes the playoffs this year, I think they took the low road to do so. I can't speak for other fans, but I won't forget that they tried to game the system with a non-competitive product to acquire talent. In back to back years, Philly drafted a player #1 that couldn't help their college team win. Winning doesn't seem to be an important factor for that franchise.
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I'm very curious as to when Danny became aware of Kyrie's trade request. Was it during the period between the end of the Finals (June 12) and the Draft (June 22)? I believe Danny made the trade with Philadelphia on June 17. Did Danny decide then that he would go all in on Kyrie and pass on Markelle Fultz? He then drafted Tatum (the guy he wanted "all along") and picked up an additional 2018 pick to still remain in next year's lottery, with the idea of possibly trading the much coveted Brooklyn pick for Kyrie.
BTW, here is a good breakdown of the Celtics off season timeline: https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-how-the-celtics-have-transformed-this-summer (https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-how-the-celtics-have-transformed-this-summer)
If so, GM of the year award goes to Danny Ainge.
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I'm very curious as to when Danny became aware of Kyrie's trade request. Was it during the period between the end of the Finals (June 12) and the Draft (June 22)? I believe Danny made the trade with Philadelphia on June 17. Did Danny decide then that he would go all in on Kyrie and pass on Markelle Fultz? He then drafted Tatum (the guy he wanted "all along") and picked up an additional 2018 pick to still remain in next year's lottery, with the idea of possibly trading the much coveted Brooklyn pick for Kyrie.
BTW, here is a good breakdown of the Celtics off season timeline: https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-how-the-celtics-have-transformed-this-summer (https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2017/08/23/heres-how-the-celtics-have-transformed-this-summer)
If so, GM of the year award goes to Danny Ainge.
I think we'll win 60 and it will.
If he knew about Kyrie's availability before the draft, that means he knew he could choose from between Kyrie, Fultz, and Isaiah for future and present PG. Every GM in Danny's situation would choose Kyrie every time.
Having made that choice, he wound up converting Fultz, Isaiah, Crowder, Zizic, and the Brooklyn pick into Kyrie, Tatum, and the Lakers pick. The picks cancel out. I would totally trade one year of gimpy Isaiah, Crowder, and Zizic for Tatum, who might as well have been the #1 overall pick on Ainge's board.
This offseason has been magnificent.
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If you don't believe that Coach Stevens had a hand in helping IT have the greatest year of his career, then I don't believe you are giving him the credit he deserves.
Does Ty Lue get credit for Kyrie having his best year last season? What percentage is Lue, and what percentage is Kyrie?
I give CBS credit for recognizing what an amazing player he had, but the level of play is due to IT.
Kyrie's season wasn't a huge outlier. Definitely his best, but not the type of stratospheric leap that IT made. In any case, I credit the players and view Stevens as the better coach.
- Isaiah jumped from 22.2 PPG to 28.9 PP (+6.7 PPG)
- Kyrie jumped from 19.6 PPG to 25.2 PPG (+ 5.6 PPG)
Really not that dramatic a difference in all honesty.
Isaiah also benefited from being on a far better team with the addition of Horford (who's playmaking got Thomas many open looks) combined with the offensive improvement of Bradley and Crowder (who both had better shooting years, creating more space for Thomas).
So while Thomas no doubt took his game to another level last season, the fact that he had a much stronger team around him helped too.
By comparison Kyrie's situation really did not change from 15/16 to 16/17 aside from the addition of Kyle Korver (which only happened mid season from memory). Otherwise Cleveland didn't really add anybody worth mentioning, and none of their existing plays improved in any way worth mentioning - Kyrie's improvement was pretty much all him.
Kyrie's previous best was 22.5, not 19.6.
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The idea that IT would not get near a max when JRue holiday did really discredits those on this board who think IT wouldn't get paid.
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If you don't believe that Coach Stevens had a hand in helping IT have the greatest year of his career, then I don't believe you are giving him the credit he deserves.
Does Ty Lue get credit for Kyrie having his best year last season? What percentage is Lue, and what percentage is Kyrie?
I give CBS credit for recognizing what an amazing player he had, but the level of play is due to IT.
Kyrie's season wasn't a huge outlier. Definitely his best, but not the type of stratospheric leap that IT made. In any case, I credit the players and view Stevens as the better coach.
- Isaiah jumped from 22.2 PPG to 28.9 PP (+6.7 PPG)
- Kyrie jumped from 19.6 PPG to 25.2 PPG (+ 5.6 PPG)
Really not that dramatic a difference in all honesty.
Isaiah also benefited from being on a far better team with the addition of Horford (who's playmaking got Thomas many open looks) combined with the offensive improvement of Bradley and Crowder (who both had better shooting years, creating more space for Thomas).
So while Thomas no doubt took his game to another level last season, the fact that he had a much stronger team around him helped too.
By comparison Kyrie's situation really did not change from 15/16 to 16/17 aside from the addition of Kyle Korver (which only happened mid season from memory). Otherwise Cleveland didn't really add anybody worth mentioning, and none of their existing plays improved in any way worth mentioning - Kyrie's improvement was pretty much all him.
Kyrie's previous best was 22.5, not 19.6.
I wasnt talking about his previous best, i was taking about the jump he made from last season to this season.
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If you don't believe that Coach Stevens had a hand in helping IT have the greatest year of his career, then I don't believe you are giving him the credit he deserves.
Does Ty Lue get credit for Kyrie having his best year last season? What percentage is Lue, and what percentage is Kyrie?
I give CBS credit for recognizing what an amazing player he had, but the level of play is due to IT.
Kyrie's season wasn't a huge outlier. Definitely his best, but not the type of stratospheric leap that IT made. In any case, I credit the players and view Stevens as the better coach.
- Isaiah jumped from 22.2 PPG to 28.9 PP (+6.7 PPG)
- Kyrie jumped from 19.6 PPG to 25.2 PPG (+ 5.6 PPG)
Really not that dramatic a difference in all honesty.
Isaiah also benefited from being on a far better team with the addition of Horford (who's playmaking got Thomas many open looks) combined with the offensive improvement of Bradley and Crowder (who both had better shooting years, creating more space for Thomas).
So while Thomas no doubt took his game to another level last season, the fact that he had a much stronger team around him helped too.
By comparison Kyrie's situation really did not change from 15/16 to 16/17 aside from the addition of Kyle Korver (which only happened mid season from memory). Otherwise Cleveland didn't really add anybody worth mentioning, and none of their existing plays improved in any way worth mentioning - Kyrie's improvement was pretty much all him.
Kyrie's previous best was 22.5, not 19.6.
I wasnt talking about his previous best, i was taking about the jump he made from last season to this season.
but in the context of taking a stratospheric leap, acknowledging Kyrie's previous career high is the more sound way to do it, especially when that 19.6 reflects Irving coming back from an injury that cost him a couple of months of the season. In December, Irving only averaged 13 ppg in 4 games. January in 16 games just 17.2. By February he was back to being healthy and averaged 23.1 in February, 20.5 in March, and 21.4 in April. He was at 25.2 in the playoffs that year.
Yes, Irving set a career best last year at 25.2, but he has had seasons of 22.5, 21.7, and 20.8. Irving didn't have some crazy jump like Thomas did.