CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: drogbagarnett on September 11, 2017, 12:12:43 PM
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I think we are actually a better defensive team!!
1) But first lets pull the breaks on the real impact of our defense last year!
It's funny to me that people keep harping on us losing our great defense!!
Didn't you guys watch last year's playoff..???
I guess we :
- Finally Escaped the Bulls series thanks to the ALL TIME GREAT DEFENDER Gerald Green inserted in the starting line up to change the complexity of the series??
- Barely overcomed the Wizard in a tight 7 game series thanks to kelly Olynyk DEFENSIVE PROWESS in the second half??
- Got absolutely DESTROYED by the Cavs in the ECF because our DEFENSIVE GURU Isiah Thomas was playing hurt and subsequently missed the rest of the series??
I know defense is important and represent almost half of the battle but frankly Lets all STOP with all these "our defense is worst this year" rethoric I'm seeing everywhere to doubt our team, in today's NBA great offense beats great defense!
Where was our SUPER DUPER defenders (Bradley, Crowder, Amir, etc...) when Kyrie was single-handedly killing us in the 3rd quarter of Game 4 of the ECF while Lebron was sitting with 4 or 5 fouls...? We were up almost double digits if i recall correctly and a Cavs team full of all time great defenders like Kyrie Irving, Jr Smith, Kevin Love, etc, amounted a come back to take the lead into the 4th quarter and avoided us tying the series 2-2 which would have made that whole ECF interesting...
You guys act like having Bradley defense, or Crowder defense mattered much during those crucial moments. That's when a series is decided. Those are championship moments. And I will take a Kyrie Irving 3 pointers in Curry's face over any Bradley or Crowder defense that couldn't take us across the finish line for the past 3 seasons.
Good Defenders are easier to find, some very good ones are in the Dleague waiting for opportunities. Great Offensive players that can close a game or series consistently are more difficult to find.
Defense is important, dont get me wrong, but I think we are putting too much emphasis on it and not realizing that we got 3 great offensive players in just a couple of months that can help us get over the hump (Tatum, Hayward and Irving).
Now, here is what I also think :
2) Our defense will be even better than last year!
I do think we can still put out there a very good defensive lineup when a stop is needed with players like Rozier, Smart, Brown, Hayward, Semi, Theis, Morris, Horford and Baynes!!
To me, depending on how Semi turns out, and with defensive improvement from our young studs, we might have even improved defensively with this team (with 1 additional roster open for guys like Tony Allen or Andrew Bogut)!!
Looking at the players past and present, Defensively :
Kyrie > IT
Rozier 2018 > Rozier 2017
Brown 2018 > Brown 2017
Smart 2018 > Smart 2017
Hayward < Bradley (but just Slightly, the longer but slower Hayward is an underrated defender)
Semi < Crowder (only slightly against the 2017 Crowder and only if Semi can confirm his great SL defense)
Morris > Kelly
Tatum > Green (younger, longer and more mobile than the stiff Green)
Baynes > Amir (less on switches but more on defending the post where we got killed often)
Horford 2018 = Horford 2017
Theis = Jerebko (Slight edge to Theis if he confirm his DE Defensive player of the year status)
Yabu > Zeller (not that it matters much but should be noted...)
Larkin = Jackson
Nader > Young (not that it matters much but should be noted...)
In addition to the above, we can also note that :
2018 team length > 2017 team length
2018 low post defense > 2017 low post defense
2018 athleticism > 2017 athleticism
So frankly, if Hayward and Semi confirm what I have seen from them defensively, and if we can add a Tony Allen or Andrew Bogut with the open roster spot, I really dont think we are much worst than last year at all!! I actually think we might even be better!!!
3) An improved offense is also a net plus defensively :
1- Less Fast-break opportunities for the opponent
2- Less Energy left offensively after they spent most of it trying to stop our great offensive players
3- last but not least, pushing opponent to make adjustment to their team by lining up more defenders to try to stop us, and thus reducing their offensive firepower...!!)
So let's all relax, drop those "we are worst defensively" comments and enjoy what is going to be an EPIC playoff run, that will take us I think all the way to the NBA Finals!!
"It's about to be CRAZY, G!!!"
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I'm not worried about our defense either but don't pretend/forget that if it were not for the defense of AB we still lose in the first round, he shut Butler down when he defended him, without question, Butler got his points on other players. He also put the clamps on Wall, don't let the counting stats fool you. When AB went down in the first game Wall started to destroy us (IT4), if we lost that game, we lose that series, AB came back and put the clamps on him again and we won. Furthermore, great offense will beat great defense, these are some of the best offenders in the world, even the undisputed best defenders have no chance against the best. People always bring up what Kyrie did to us but fail to mention that he completely destroyed the best defense left in the playoffs (probably best period), who had Klay, a guy people routinely called a better defender than AB. He beat on GSW like he was out there alone most of the time.
Now we hope Kyrie destroys the league for us, let's get it! It's about to go down!!!!
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Wow you just said all the same things for me, my first given TP
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Wow you just said all the same things for me, my first given TP
Thanks! And one right back to you for sharing the same views.
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I'm not worried about our defense either but don't pretend/forget that if it were not for the defense of AB we still lose in the first round, he shut Butler down when he defended him, without question, Butler got his points on other players. He also put the clamps on Wall, don't let the counting stats fool you. When AB went down in the first game Wall started to destroy us (IT4), if we lost that game, we lose that series, AB came back and put the clamps on him again and we won. Furthermore, great offense will beat great defense, these are some of the best offenders in the world, even the undisputed best defenders have no chance against the best. People always bring up what Kyrie did to us but fail to mention that he completely destroyed the best defense left in the playoffs (probably best period), who had Klay, a guy people routinely called a better defender than AB. He beat on GSW like he was out there alone most of the time.
Now we hope Kyrie destroys the league for us, let's get it! It's about to go down!!!!
I hear you!
My point is with Bradley shutting down Butler we were still 0-2 about to lose the series until we made a CLEARLY offensive-minded adjustment to bring one of our WORST defenders into the line up to create a threat that actually got us back into the series!!! Offensive threat is more powerful than defensive threat!! And that Bulls series was a proof of that!
As for Washington, I agree Bradley defended Wall well but he still got his to the point of scoring the winning clutch shot on Bradley's face to extend the series. If not for yet again some offensive OUTBURST from Kelly Olynyk, we could have lost that series as well!
For all the great defense we are supposed to be losing in those trades, we were extremely close to having a playoff run cut short a third time in a row with those great defenders in our team if it wasn't for some offensive adjustments and outbursts....
We are a better defensive team!! Haters will soon realize that!
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this is accurate.
Also, you should do an offensive breakdown to where we are now vs last year.
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Our big weaknesses were defensive rebounding, forcing turnovers, and fouling too much.
I'm not sure if we got better in those areas.
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I agree that we have a better starting defensive unit, in the grand scheme of things. However, with so many rookies on the team that will need to play minutes, I would imagine the defensive shortfalls will come from the second unit. Defense is extremely difficult for a rookie to grasp.
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I'm not worried about our defense either but don't pretend/forget that if it were not for the defense of AB we still lose in the first round, he shut Butler down when he defended him, without question, Butler got his points on other players. He also put the clamps on Wall, don't let the counting stats fool you. When AB went down in the first game Wall started to destroy us (IT4), if we lost that game, we lose that series, AB came back and put the clamps on him again and we won. Furthermore, great offense will beat great defense, these are some of the best offenders in the world, even the undisputed best defenders have no chance against the best. People always bring up what Kyrie did to us but fail to mention that he completely destroyed the best defense left in the playoffs (probably best period), who had Klay, a guy people routinely called a better defender than AB. He beat on GSW like he was out there alone most of the time.
Now we hope Kyrie destroys the league for us, let's get it! It's about to go down!!!!
I hear you!
My point is with Bradley shutting down Butler we were still 0-2 about to lose the series until we made a CLEARLY offensive-minded adjustment to bring one of our WORST defenders into the line up to create a threat that actually got us back into the series!!! Offensive threat is more powerful than defensive threat!! And that Bulls series was a proof of that!
As for Washington, I agree Bradley defended Wall well but he still got his to the point of scoring the winning clutch shot on Bradley's face to extend the series. If not for yet again some offensive OUTBURST from Kelly Olynyk, we could have lost that series as well!
For all the great defense we are supposed to be losing in those trades, we were extremely close to having a playoff run cut short a third time in a row with those great defenders in our team if it wasn't for some offensive adjustments and outbursts....
We are a better defensive team!! Haters will soon realize that!
or maybe it was when the Bulls best defender got hurt that Boston got back into the series. Acting like Gerald Green being inserted into the starting lineup is why Boston won is just silly nonsense. Of course that has nothing to do with Boston being a better defensive team. In fact, very little of what you posted has anything to do with defense.
It seems to me you are focusing on the offense being better which will make Boston a better team overall, but that certainly doesn't make Boston a better defensive team.
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I'm not worried about our defense either but don't pretend/forget that if it were not for the defense of AB we still lose in the first round, he shut Butler down when he defended him, without question, Butler got his points on other players. He also put the clamps on Wall, don't let the counting stats fool you. When AB went down in the first game Wall started to destroy us (IT4), if we lost that game, we lose that series, AB came back and put the clamps on him again and we won. Furthermore, great offense will beat great defense, these are some of the best offenders in the world, even the undisputed best defenders have no chance against the best. People always bring up what Kyrie did to us but fail to mention that he completely destroyed the best defense left in the playoffs (probably best period), who had Klay, a guy people routinely called a better defender than AB. He beat on GSW like he was out there alone most of the time.
Now we hope Kyrie destroys the league for us, let's get it! It's about to go down!!!!
I hear you!
My point is with Bradley shutting down Butler we were still 0-2 about to lose the series until we made a CLEARLY offensive-minded adjustment to bring one of our WORST defenders into the line up to create a threat that actually got us back into the series!!! Offensive threat is more powerful than defensive threat!! And that Bulls series was a proof of that!
As for Washington, I agree Bradley defended Wall well but he still got his to the point of scoring the winning clutch shot on Bradley's face to extend the series. If not for yet again some offensive OUTBURST from Kelly Olynyk, we could have lost that series as well!
For all the great defense we are supposed to be losing in those trades, we were extremely close to having a playoff run cut short a third time in a row with those great defenders in our team if it wasn't for some offensive adjustments and outbursts....
We are a better defensive team!! Haters will soon realize that!
or maybe it was when the Bulls best defender got hurt that Boston got back into the series. Acting like Gerald Green being inserted into the starting lineup is why Boston won is just silly nonsense. Of course that has nothing to do with Boston being a better defensive team. In fact, very little of what you posted has anything to do with defense.
It seems to me you are focusing on the offense being better which will make Boston a better team overall, but that certainly doesn't make Boston a better defensive team.
Who is this bulls best defender? you mean the "I don't play defense because they don't expect me to" Rajon? or the "Every i joined just blows up" Rondo?
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I am in agreement with Moranis and Roy. Your article has little to do with why our defense will be better but is more about how our offense will be better. And as Roy stated, we probably aren't better in the areas we struggled in last year. Also, my guess is the areas we were good at last year, like perimeter defense, could be worse. I just don't see us being better defensively. As good as last year with a better offense...yeah, that I could see. But not better defensively.
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Our big weaknesses were defensive rebounding, forcing turnovers, and fouling too much.
I'm not sure if we got better in those areas.
Frankly, I'm not sure either but at least i can say :
- we are longer and more athletic (which can help with rebounding and forcing turnovers)
- we now have a low post defender (no more getting bullied and having to foul those centers)
Might not mean much but at least I feel slightly more confident.
Again, my biggest bet is on Semi performing at a high level defensively. I still believe he will be playing more min than most would think... If he does that and knock down his 3s at a 40% rate as he did in College and SL, than we will all forget about Crowder very fast....
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Hmm.... regardless of what you might think of individual defenders, the fact is, in the Bull's series, we won the three games in which we held them to under 100 points.
Of course, sometimes, the best way to help your defense is to simply make your baskets on your offensive possessions. That's something I think we'll be better at this year, with the addition of Hayward, giving us more than just one elite scoring weapon.
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I agree that we have a better starting defensive unit, in the grand scheme of things. However, with so many rookies on the team that will need to play minutes, I would imagine the defensive shortfalls will come from the second unit. Defense is extremely difficult for a rookie to grasp.
At least we went from :
Kyrie is the worst defender and we lost our defending Gods in Bradley and Crowder
to
agreeing we have a better starting defensive unit.
That already is a win!!
As for the second unit, we are replacing Defensive STARS like Gerald Green, Kelly Olynyk, slumping Jerebko, Zeller, James Young, rookie Brown, second year Rozier
with players like second year Brown, "veteran" Rozier, Euro Defensive player of the year Theis, rock solid Baynes, long and mobile rookie Tatum, defensive ace rookie Semi...
I sincerely do not think our second unit is that worst compared to last year, honestly...
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Our big weaknesses were defensive rebounding, forcing turnovers, and fouling too much.
I'm not sure if we got better in those areas.
Frankly, I'm not sure either but at least i can say :
- we are longer and more athletic (which can help with rebounding and forcing turnovers)
- we now have a low post defender (no more getting bullied and having to foul those centers)
Might not mean much but at least I feel slightly more confident.
Again, my biggest bet is on Semi performing at a high level defensively. I still believe he will be playing more min than most would think... If does that and knock down his 3s at a 40% rate we will all forget about Crowder very fast....
More important than having more length & athleticism on the roster will be whether Brad makes use of that length and athleticism.
Last year Brad played a lot of lineups featuring three 'smalls' and the defensive ratings of those lineups dragged down the overall team defensive rating pretty significantly.
Given our current roster, I see no reason for him to repeat that emphasis. We have a lot of depth at wing this year and I hope to see more '3-wing' lineups than 3-small lineups. If we do that, then I agree, that we should improve on defense.
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I'm not worried about our defense either but don't pretend/forget that if it were not for the defense of AB we still lose in the first round, he shut Butler down when he defended him, without question, Butler got his points on other players. He also put the clamps on Wall, don't let the counting stats fool you. When AB went down in the first game Wall started to destroy us (IT4), if we lost that game, we lose that series, AB came back and put the clamps on him again and we won. Furthermore, great offense will beat great defense, these are some of the best offenders in the world, even the undisputed best defenders have no chance against the best. People always bring up what Kyrie did to us but fail to mention that he completely destroyed the best defense left in the playoffs (probably best period), who had Klay, a guy people routinely called a better defender than AB. He beat on GSW like he was out there alone most of the time.
Now we hope Kyrie destroys the league for us, let's get it! It's about to go down!!!!
I hear you!
My point is with Bradley shutting down Butler we were still 0-2 about to lose the series until we made a CLEARLY offensive-minded adjustment to bring one of our WORST defenders into the line up to create a threat that actually got us back into the series!!! Offensive threat is more powerful than defensive threat!! And that Bulls series was a proof of that!
As for Washington, I agree Bradley defended Wall well but he still got his to the point of scoring the winning clutch shot on Bradley's face to extend the series. If not for yet again some offensive OUTBURST from Kelly Olynyk, we could have lost that series as well!
For all the great defense we are supposed to be losing in those trades, we were extremely close to having a playoff run cut short a third time in a row with those great defenders in our team if it wasn't for some offensive adjustments and outbursts....
We are a better defensive team!! Haters will soon realize that!
or maybe it was when the Bulls best defender got hurt that Boston got back into the series. Acting like Gerald Green being inserted into the starting lineup is why Boston won is just silly nonsense. Of course that has nothing to do with Boston being a better defensive team. In fact, very little of what you posted has anything to do with defense.
It seems to me you are focusing on the offense being better which will make Boston a better team overall, but that certainly doesn't make Boston a better defensive team.
Can't deny Rondo injury helped.
However, the ONE adjustment we made was not on the defensive end to stop Chicago from scoring!!! That one adjustment was to space the floor offensively so we could score more easily.
Say whatever you want but this is the truth. We made a clear OFFENSIVE adjustment not a defensive one for that series! My point is a better offense got us through that series!!
If you take the time to read my original post you will understand my THIRD point stating that having a better offense DOES HELP make us better defensively... you can argue on those 3 points I listed to support such an assertion but dont comment like you haven't read the first post... :-)
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I'm not worried about our defense either but don't pretend/forget that if it were not for the defense of AB we still lose in the first round, he shut Butler down when he defended him, without question, Butler got his points on other players. He also put the clamps on Wall, don't let the counting stats fool you. When AB went down in the first game Wall started to destroy us (IT4), if we lost that game, we lose that series, AB came back and put the clamps on him again and we won. Furthermore, great offense will beat great defense, these are some of the best offenders in the world, even the undisputed best defenders have no chance against the best. People always bring up what Kyrie did to us but fail to mention that he completely destroyed the best defense left in the playoffs (probably best period), who had Klay, a guy people routinely called a better defender than AB. He beat on GSW like he was out there alone most of the time.
Now we hope Kyrie destroys the league for us, let's get it! It's about to go down!!!!
I hear you!
My point is with Bradley shutting down Butler we were still 0-2 about to lose the series until we made a CLEARLY offensive-minded adjustment to bring one of our WORST defenders into the line up to create a threat that actually got us back into the series!!! Offensive threat is more powerful than defensive threat!! And that Bulls series was a proof of that!
As for Washington, I agree Bradley defended Wall well but he still got his to the point of scoring the winning clutch shot on Bradley's face to extend the series. If not for yet again some offensive OUTBURST from Kelly Olynyk, we could have lost that series as well!
For all the great defense we are supposed to be losing in those trades, we were extremely close to having a playoff run cut short a third time in a row with those great defenders in our team if it wasn't for some offensive adjustments and outbursts....
We are a better defensive team!! Haters will soon realize that!
AB wasn't Butler's primary defender until game 3 though, Jae was. AB had Wade. We were able to switch because IT4 could be put on their PGs when RR went down. We couldn't put AB on RR because IT4 couldn't guard anyone else out there (Wade/Butler). The problem was IT4 even though people want to gloss over that. Losing RR was a major part of us winning but also how we could defend when we didn't have to worry about someone destroying IT4 all game.
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I am in agreement with Moranis and Roy. Your article has little to do with why our defense will be better but is more about how our offense will be better. And as Roy stated, we probably aren't better in the areas we struggled in last year. Also, my guess is the areas we were good at last year, like perimeter defense, could be worse. I just don't see us being better defensively. As good as last year with a better offense...yeah, that I could see. But not better defensively.
Except that I took the time to list for you guys all the player to player comparisons so you could see that overall we might be more potent defensively than last year. Only Crowder > Semi and Bradley > Hayward could justify us being worst (and I explained why I thought those two comparison were closer than we might imagine...)
I also mention HOW a better offensive help us be better defensively.
And I also stated that we could be adding a Tony Allen (improved perimeter defense) or a Bogut (improved interior defense) with that open roster we currently have...
Finally, we can argue but I think we are longer, more athletic, have better low post defense and our young studs (Smart, Brown, Rozier) are 1 year older and wiser defensively.
Would all these count for something or you just want to hand on to your believe and simply discard my arguments as non-existent...??
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Hmm.... regardless of what you might think of individual defenders, the fact is, in the Bull's series, we won the three games in which we held them to under 100 points.
Of course, sometimes, the best way to help your defense is to simply make your baskets on your offensive possessions. That's something I think we'll be better at this year, with the addition of Hayward, giving us more than just one elite scoring weapon.
That's my point!!
And to be frank, we can all agree that adding Gerald Green to the line up is not a tactical adjustment to keep your opponent under 100 points!!! It's an adjustment to space the floor and score more!!! Which in returns, just as I explained it, make you defense better!!!
We will be better defensively! I could bet on that!
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Our big weaknesses were defensive rebounding, forcing turnovers, and fouling too much.
I'm not sure if we got better in those areas.
Frankly, I'm not sure either but at least i can say :
- we are longer and more athletic (which can help with rebounding and forcing turnovers)
- we now have a low post defender (no more getting bullied and having to foul those centers)
Might not mean much but at least I feel slightly more confident.
Again, my biggest bet is on Semi performing at a high level defensively. I still believe he will be playing more min than most would think... If does that and knock down his 3s at a 40% rate we will all forget about Crowder very fast....
More important than having more length & athleticism on the roster will be whether Brad makes use of that length and athleticism.
Last year Brad played a lot of lineups featuring three 'smalls' and the defensive ratings of those lineups dragged down the overall team defensive rating pretty significantly.
Given our current roster, I see no reason for him to repeat that emphasis. We have a lot of depth at wing this year and I hope to see more '3-wing' lineups than 3-small lineups. If we do that, then I agree, that we should improve on defense.
thank you!
Length and athleticism will improve and help our defense already, but if those come with bigger, longer more athletic BALL HANDLERS who can attack the weak side of a defense than we will see less and less 3 PG line ups and our defense will improve drastically while the offense will still be running at a high level!!
We will be better defensively! Trust me!!
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I'm not worried about our defense either but don't pretend/forget that if it were not for the defense of AB we still lose in the first round, he shut Butler down when he defended him, without question, Butler got his points on other players. He also put the clamps on Wall, don't let the counting stats fool you. When AB went down in the first game Wall started to destroy us (IT4), if we lost that game, we lose that series, AB came back and put the clamps on him again and we won. Furthermore, great offense will beat great defense, these are some of the best offenders in the world, even the undisputed best defenders have no chance against the best. People always bring up what Kyrie did to us but fail to mention that he completely destroyed the best defense left in the playoffs (probably best period), who had Klay, a guy people routinely called a better defender than AB. He beat on GSW like he was out there alone most of the time.
Now we hope Kyrie destroys the league for us, let's get it! It's about to go down!!!!
I hear you!
My point is with Bradley shutting down Butler we were still 0-2 about to lose the series until we made a CLEARLY offensive-minded adjustment to bring one of our WORST defenders into the line up to create a threat that actually got us back into the series!!! Offensive threat is more powerful than defensive threat!! And that Bulls series was a proof of that!
As for Washington, I agree Bradley defended Wall well but he still got his to the point of scoring the winning clutch shot on Bradley's face to extend the series. If not for yet again some offensive OUTBURST from Kelly Olynyk, we could have lost that series as well!
For all the great defense we are supposed to be losing in those trades, we were extremely close to having a playoff run cut short a third time in a row with those great defenders in our team if it wasn't for some offensive adjustments and outbursts....
We are a better defensive team!! Haters will soon realize that!
AB wasn't Butler's primary defender until game 3 though, Jae was. AB had Wade. We were able to switch because IT4 could be put on their PGs when RR went down. We couldn't put AB on RR because IT4 couldn't guard anyone else out there (Wade/Butler). The problem was IT4 even though people want to gloss over that. Losing RR was a major part of us winning but also how we could defend when we didn't have to worry about someone destroying IT4 all game.
I agree the lost of Rondo helped us tremendously.
But if that is the reason why we won then it also prove my point that, if it wasnt for a freak injury, our team (with defensive aces like Crowder and Bradley) last year might have been swept by the 8th seed and losing a 3rd year in a row in the first round of the play off despite being that supposedly good defense with all those great defenders (we just lost and people can stop crying over it) that are supposed to get us wins in the playoff!!!
Wihtout Rondo's freak injury, our team was being swept by the Bulls.
Wouldn't you trade all those great defenders that get us eliminated in the first round every year and try something else if you were a GM armed with all those assets...??
Improving Offensively with multiple go-to scorers with length and athleticism will turn out to be our best defensive strategy!
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I am in agreement with Moranis and Roy. Your article has little to do with why our defense will be better but is more about how our offense will be better. And as Roy stated, we probably aren't better in the areas we struggled in last year. Also, my guess is the areas we were good at last year, like perimeter defense, could be worse. I just don't see us being better defensively. As good as last year with a better offense...yeah, that I could see. But not better defensively.
Except that I took the time to list for you guys all the player to player comparisons so you could see that overall we might be more potent defensively than last year. Only Crowder > Semi and Bradley > Hayward could justify us being worst (and I explained why I thought those two comparison were closer than we might imagine...)
I also mention HOW a better offensive help us be better defensively.
And I also stated that we could be adding a Tony Allen (improved perimeter defense) or a Bogut (improved interior defense) with that open roster we currently have...
Finally, we can argue but I think we are longer, more athletic, have better low post defense and our young studs (Smart, Brown, Rozier) are 1 year older and wiser defensively.
Would all these count for something or you just want to hand on to your believe and simply discard my arguments as non-existent...??
It's hard to know how to compare the lineups, but here's one shot at it:
Big 1: Horford '18 vs. Horford '17
Essentially a wash. Horford is a year older, but he's got another year in a similar system. He will also be playing some more cent r, which helps.
Big 2: Morris vs. Amir. Amir gets the edge against traditional lineups. Morris is more suited to the role of small ball big, the role Jae would have played.
Wing 1: Hayward vs. Jae. Jae ended the year as a slightly better defender, but both were above average.
Wing 2: Jaylen vs. Avery. Avery wins this hands down right now, but if Jaylen reaches his potential, he could be a Reggie Lewis-like defender. It's a solid step backward for now, but give it 2 years.
Ball Handler: Kyrie vs. Thomas. These guys are both bottom-5 defenders at their position. Both need to be hidden.
As for the bench, both teams have Smart and Rozier. Baynes vs. KO is probably the only matchup of consequence. Baynes can help if Brad uses him, but KO was quite decent as a team defender.
So, right now I don't see an immediate upgrade. The defense should take a step back as guys learn their roles and gel.
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I'm not worried about our defense either but don't pretend/forget that if it were not for the defense of AB we still lose in the first round, he shut Butler down when he defended him, without question, Butler got his points on other players. He also put the clamps on Wall, don't let the counting stats fool you. When AB went down in the first game Wall started to destroy us (IT4), if we lost that game, we lose that series, AB came back and put the clamps on him again and we won. Furthermore, great offense will beat great defense, these are some of the best offenders in the world, even the undisputed best defenders have no chance against the best. People always bring up what Kyrie did to us but fail to mention that he completely destroyed the best defense left in the playoffs (probably best period), who had Klay, a guy people routinely called a better defender than AB. He beat on GSW like he was out there alone most of the time.
Now we hope Kyrie destroys the league for us, let's get it! It's about to go down!!!!
I hear you!
My point is with Bradley shutting down Butler we were still 0-2 about to lose the series until we made a CLEARLY offensive-minded adjustment to bring one of our WORST defenders into the line up to create a threat that actually got us back into the series!!! Offensive threat is more powerful than defensive threat!! And that Bulls series was a proof of that!
As for Washington, I agree Bradley defended Wall well but he still got his to the point of scoring the winning clutch shot on Bradley's face to extend the series. If not for yet again some offensive OUTBURST from Kelly Olynyk, we could have lost that series as well!
For all the great defense we are supposed to be losing in those trades, we were extremely close to having a playoff run cut short a third time in a row with those great defenders in our team if it wasn't for some offensive adjustments and outbursts....
We are a better defensive team!! Haters will soon realize that!
AB wasn't Butler's primary defender until game 3 though, Jae was. AB had Wade. We were able to switch because IT4 could be put on their PGs when RR went down. We couldn't put AB on RR because IT4 couldn't guard anyone else out there (Wade/Butler). The problem was IT4 even though people want to gloss over that. Losing RR was a major part of us winning but also how we could defend when we didn't have to worry about someone destroying IT4 all game.
I agree the lost of Rondo helped us tremendously.
But if that is the reason why we won then it also prove my point that, if it wasnt for a freak injury, our team (with defensive aces like Crowder and Bradley) last year might have been swept by the 8th seed and losing a 3rd year in a row in the first round of the play off despite being that supposedly good defense with all those great defenders (we just lost and people can stop crying over it) that are supposed to get us wins in the playoff!!!
Wihtout Rondo's freak injury, our team was being swept by the Bulls.
Wouldn't you trade all those great defenders that get us eliminated in the first round every year and try something else if you were a GM armed with all those assets...??
Improving Offensively with multiple go-to scorers with length and athleticism will turn out to be our best defensive strategy!
No one is saying offense isn't important, you don't need to argue that. The fact is you need to do both things well to win the chip. It's not a coincidence that everyone and their mother, including Danny, talked about Kyrie needing to be better defensively. The best players do both at a high level (PGs get away with being bad these days). How many times have you seen mediocre defensive teams win the chip? Crap defense sends you home when it counts. Even Curry had to step up his defense.
No, we need more than guys who can get their own offensively, that's exactly why the only player we picked up that is known as a bad defender is Kyrie and DA said he has to be better! Brown wasn't talking about Fultz D for no reason.
Phoenix (Nash peak years), could score with the best of them but they couldn't win in the playoffs because of defense. You have to be able to put up great resistance or be done.
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I love these uniltateral declaration posts before the season begins.
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It's hard to know how to compare the lineups, but here's one shot at it:
Big 1: Horford '18 vs. Horford '17
Essentially a wash. Horford is a year older, but he's got another year in a similar system. He will also be playing some more cent r, which helps.
Big 2: Morris vs. Amir. Amir gets the edge against traditional lineups. Morris is more suited to the role of small ball big, the role Jae would have played.
Wing 1: Hayward vs. Jae. Jae ended the year as a slightly better defender, but both were above average.
Wing 2: Jaylen vs. Avery. Avery wins this hands down right now, but if Jaylen reaches his potential, he could be a Reggie Lewis-like defender. It's a solid step backward for now, but give it 2 years.
Ball Handler: Kyrie vs. Thomas. These guys are both bottom-5 defenders at their position. Both need to be hidden.
As for the bench, both teams have Smart and Rozier. Baynes vs. KO is probably the only matchup of consequence. Baynes can help if Brad uses him, but KO was quite decent as a team defender.
So, right now I don't see an immediate upgrade. The defense should take a step back as guys learn their roles and gel.
I see your point.
Thanks for taking the time to spell out a thoughtful argumentation.
I tend to disagree with you on certain points but most of your arguments here are somewhat valid.
I still think that low post defense, no IT, length and athleticism help push this year team over last year's defensively...
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I love these uniltateral declaration posts before the season begins.
Yeah that's true... Lol. Should have added on paper... :-)
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No one is saying offense isn't important, you don't need to argue that. The fact is you need to do both things well to win the chip. It's not a coincidence that everyone and their mother, including Danny, talked about Kyrie needing to be better defensively. The best players do both at a high level (PGs get away with being bad these days). How many times have you seen mediocre defensive teams win the chip? Crap defense sends you home when it counts. Even Curry had to step up his defense.
No, we need more than guys who can get their own offensively, that's exactly why the only player we picked up that is known as a bad defender is Kyrie and DA said he has to be better! Brown wasn't talking about Fultz D for no reason.
Phoenix (Nash peak years), could score with the best of them but they couldn't win in the playoffs because of defense. You have to be able to put up great resistance or be done.
Not sure what we are arguing here anymore...
I'm not saying offense is important, of course we all know both offense and defense are important!!!
I'm arguing that we are a better defensive team than last year and that a better offense does help improve the defense as well. (And vice versa actually).
My argument is :
It's true great defense is important but not as much as great offense and we have an improved defensive team thanks to :
- more length
- more athleticism
- less hidding IT
- better low post defense
- improved young studs 1 year older and wiser
- AND IMPROVED OFFENSE that will make our defense better
Now let's argue those points instead of Steve Nash's Suns playoff runs... we will be a more balanced, better defensive team than those suns... let's get the focus back on the main points
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No one is saying offense isn't important, you don't need to argue that. The fact is you need to do both things well to win the chip. It's not a coincidence that everyone and their mother, including Danny, talked about Kyrie needing to be better defensively. The best players do both at a high level (PGs get away with being bad these days). How many times have you seen mediocre defensive teams win the chip? Crap defense sends you home when it counts. Even Curry had to step up his defense.
No, we need more than guys who can get their own offensively, that's exactly why the only player we picked up that is known as a bad defender is Kyrie and DA said he has to be better! Brown wasn't talking about Fultz D for no reason.
Phoenix (Nash peak years), could score with the best of them but they couldn't win in the playoffs because of defense. You have to be able to put up great resistance or be done.
Not sure what we are arguing here anymore...
I'm not saying offense is important, of course we all know both offense and defense are important!!!
I'm arguing that we are a better defensive team than last year and that a better offense does help improve the defense as well. (And vice versa actually).
My argument is :
It's true great defense is important but not as much as great offense and we have an improved defensive team thanks to :
- more length
- more athleticism
- less hidding IT
- better low post defense
- improved young studs 1 year older and wiser
- AND IMPROVED OFFENSE that will make our defense better
Now let's argue those points instead of Steve Nash's Suns playoff runs... we will be a more balanced, better defensive team than those suns... let's get the focus back on the main points
No, I responded to your assertion that we were down 0-2 with AB shutting down Butler because that wasn't how it went down. AB didn't take him until game 3. AB was allowed to do his thing because IT4 wasn't out there getting our team destroyed by RR, they had guys that we could hide him on (barely).
I already said I wasn't worried about this defense, I already know most of the new guys are good defenders.
Then you asked if I wanted more iso scores over defenders and I said that they needed to do both, so no I don't want more guys who can score but stress out our D even more. That's why I said Kyrie is the only guy known to be like that and even DA said he has to be better. I brought up PHX (not Nash, he was the reference to specify which PHX iteration) because they had all the scoring you could ask for but they didn't have the other end when they need it and you were the one saying scoring is the defense.
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It's hard to know how to compare the lineups, but here's one shot at it:
Big 1: Horford '18 vs. Horford '17
Essentially a wash. Horford is a year older, but he's got another year in a similar system. He will also be playing some more cent r, which helps.
Big 2: Morris vs. Amir. Amir gets the edge against traditional lineups. Morris is more suited to the role of small ball big, the role Jae would have played.
Wing 1: Hayward vs. Jae. Jae ended the year as a slightly better defender, but both were above average.
Wing 2: Jaylen vs. Avery. Avery wins this hands down right now, but if Jaylen reaches his potential, he could be a Reggie Lewis-like defender. It's a solid step backward for now, but give it 2 years.
Ball Handler: Kyrie vs. Thomas. These guys are both bottom-5 defenders at their position. Both need to be hidden.
As for the bench, both teams have Smart and Rozier. Baynes vs. KO is probably the only matchup of consequence. Baynes can help if Brad uses him, but KO was quite decent as a team defender.
So, right now I don't see an immediate upgrade. The defense should take a step back as guys learn their roles and gel.
I see your point.
Thanks for taking the time to spell out a thoughtful argumentation.
I tend to disagree with you on certain points but most of your arguments here are somewhat valid.
I still think that low post defense, no IT, length and athleticism help push this year team over last year's defensively...
I don't see how our low post defense is better. Al is Al. Amir is a better low post defender than Morris. And Baynes and KO are about the same with me giving the edge to KO. Our rebounding on the defensive end in the low post is still awful.
Also, I don't care if IT is 5'10" and Kyrie is 6'3", they are both horrible defensively and need to be hidden. By most defensive metrics Irving is actually a worse defender than Thomas.
And length and athleticism is great but if you don't know how to use it, what good is it. The list of long, athletic guys that are bad defenders is too long to list. Heck when it comes to defense and rebounding its all about desire. Bradley was one of the best rebounders on the team last year but was one of the smallest guys on the court. KO was a guy with awful length and athleticism but turned himself into a good defender.
I think we will have a defense that ranks similar to last year...middle of the pack.
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To the OP, in response to your points.
1. We overcame the Bulls largely due to a series-ending injury to Rajon Rondo (who had been killing us in that series) in addition to the elite defensive job Avery Bradley did on Jimmy Butler - Bradley is now gone.
2. We barely overcame the Wizards in a 7 game series because the team played with no heart and no energy in half of those games. They basically laid down and said "do what you want with me, I won't fight it". There was a lack of effort on both ends of the court in the games we lost - and the blowout margins were proof of that.
3. We got destroyed by the Cavs because of terrible rebounding (which has gotten worse this year) and because, as with the Washington series, we played with no heart and no effort to start the series. When IT went down the team seemed to play motivated again (as if they wanted to play harder for him, or were making up for the loss) and after actually playing with some effort and heart for the first time in the series, Boston actually took a game.
4. The Cavs do have a poor defence, you are right. But they also had Kyrie Irving (one of the best closers in the game) and Lebron James (the best player in the game), and the duo of Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson (one of the best rebounding frontcourts in the NBA). When you have three offensive superstars on your team who are capable of scoring 70 PPG on their own, combined with two three frontcourt players who are capable of pulling down around 30 RPG between them, then you can kinda make up for a lack of great defence.
Unfortunately our top 3 scorers only averaged 60 PPG last year between them, our top 3 rebounding starters only averaged around 17 RPG between them, and our bench is made up almost entirely of young prospects - many of whom have yet to play a single NBA game. So we cannot get by with a bad defence quite so easily as Cleveland could last year.
5. You take a Kyrie three over Steph in the finals over any AB defence? That's interesting, because without AB's defense against Jimmy Butler in Chicago we probably wouldn't make it out of the first round, I which case your Kyrie 3PT in the finals becomes nothing but a pipe dream.
6. Our defense is not better then last year, don't make me laugh. Our top six defenders last year were (not in any order) Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, Al Horford, Marcus Smart, Amir Johnson, Kelly Olynyk. We lost four of those six guys. In return we gained two above average defenders (Morris and Baynes), one average defender (Hayward) and one terrible defender (Kyrie). The only consolation here is that Kyrie replaces Thomas, who was an even worse defender. Other then that we are worse on defence - way worse. Unless Brown and Tatum shock us that is.
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Our big weaknesses were defensive rebounding, forcing turnovers, and fouling too much.
I'm not sure if we got better in those areas.
Well we did give up Kelly Olynyk (4.8 fouls per 36) and Tyler Zeller (4.2 fouls per 36). But then we picked up Baynes (5.1 fouls per 36).
We also lost horrible defensive PG in Isaiah Thomas, but the picked up horrible defensive PG Kyrie Irving.
Umm... :-\
lol
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Said no one ever :laugh:.
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Well we did give up Kelly Olynyk (4.8 fouls per 36) and Tyler Zeller (4.2 fouls per 36). But then we picked up Baynes (5.1 fouls per 36).
Baynes looks strong enough for those fouls to have some lasting power in terms of game effect.
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We won the bulls series by destroying Lopez in the high pick and roll...dragging him away from the basket out to the perimeter.
We won't be better this year bu bwe won't be as bad as people are making it out to be.
Brad Stevens gets his guys to buy in on D.
Jaylen Brown, Hayward and Smart will be key contributors on D.
Semih will be a beast too.
Come playoffs our D should be solid. In 2 summers from now our D will be awesome.
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Here is what an offensive talent like Kyrie Irving did to your super duper defensive team full of all nba defensive gurus last year :
https://youtu.be/nmVIGXp2GYY
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A lot has been made about Rondo's effect on the series, but was he guarding everybody but Isaiah?
Because the biggest difference between the first two games and the last 4 games was the waking up of the rest of our offense outside of Thomas and Horford.
The first couple of games, the team overall scoring efficiencies (TS) were just .540 and .537, as everyone seemed still in shock over Chyna's death. The following four games it was .584, .567, .550 and .594. And that last one was with IT barely contributing as we blew them out.
Thomas was definitely the main engine, but this team overall tended to go as the 'supporting cast' offense went. So long as the guys around Thomas were making their shots, we tended to be unstoppable. When they fired blanks, the team sputtered. I think that was by far the bigger issue with those first two games than anything Rondo was doing.
I mean, certainly Rondo played great and their offense struggled without him. But hey, he was on the floor as Thomas scored 33 on super-high efficiency in that first game (that the C's only lost by 4 points). Was he not supposed to guard him? Or was he, indeed guarding everyone but IT?
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A lot has been made about Rondo's effect on the series, but was he guarding everybody but Isaiah?
Because the biggest difference between the first two games and the last 4 games was the waking up of the rest of our offense outside of Thomas and Horford.
The first couple of games, the team overall scoring efficiencies (TS) were just .540 and .537, as everyone seemed still in shock over Chyna's death. The following four games it was .584, .567, .550 and .594. And that last one was with IT barely contributing as we blew them out.
Thomas was definitely the main engine, but this team overall tended to go as the 'supporting cast' offense went. So long as the guys around Thomas were making their shots, we tended to be unstoppable. When they fired blanks, the team sputtered. I think that was by far the bigger issue with those first two games than anything Rondo was doing.
I mean, certainly Rondo played great and their offense struggled without him. But hey, he was on the floor as Thomas scored 33 on super-high efficiency in that first game (that the C's only lost by 4 points). Was he not supposed to guard him? Or was he, indeed guarding everyone but IT?
I think you are looking too into it. It's pretty simple! We spread the floor and it opened up our offense! Very simple! Even Brad Stevens himself said it!! Why would you look for anything else than what exactly the coach did??? This is clear! Amir out! Green in! And BOOM our offense is fluid again!!
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A lot has been made about Rondo's effect on the series, but was he guarding everybody but Isaiah?
Because the biggest difference between the first two games and the last 4 games was the waking up of the rest of our offense outside of Thomas and Horford.
The first couple of games, the team overall scoring efficiencies (TS) were just .540 and .537, as everyone seemed still in shock over Chyna's death. The following four games it was .584, .567, .550 and .594. And that last one was with IT barely contributing as we blew them out.
Thomas was definitely the main engine, but this team overall tended to go as the 'supporting cast' offense went. So long as the guys around Thomas were making their shots, we tended to be unstoppable. When they fired blanks, the team sputtered. I think that was by far the bigger issue with those first two games than anything Rondo was doing.
I mean, certainly Rondo played great and their offense struggled without him. But hey, he was on the floor as Thomas scored 33 on super-high efficiency in that first game (that the C's only lost by 4 points). Was he not supposed to guard him? Or was he, indeed guarding everyone but IT?
I think you are looking too into it. It's pretty simple! We spread the floor and it opened up our offense! Very simple! Even Brad Stevens himself said it!! Why would you look for anything else than what exactly the coach did??? This is clear! Amir out! Green in! And BOOM our offense is fluid again!!
Eh, actually I think you may be the one looking too much into it. It sometimes is as simple as guys making shots. In those first two games, guys did not make shots. In the other 4 games, they hit their shots.
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A lot has been made about Rondo's effect on the series, but was he guarding everybody but Isaiah?
Because the biggest difference between the first two games and the last 4 games was the waking up of the rest of our offense outside of Thomas and Horford.
The first couple of games, the team overall scoring efficiencies (TS) were just .540 and .537, as everyone seemed still in shock over Chyna's death. The following four games it was .584, .567, .550 and .594. And that last one was with IT barely contributing as we blew them out.
Thomas was definitely the main engine, but this team overall tended to go as the 'supporting cast' offense went. So long as the guys around Thomas were making their shots, we tended to be unstoppable. When they fired blanks, the team sputtered. I think that was by far the bigger issue with those first two games than anything Rondo was doing.
I mean, certainly Rondo played great and their offense struggled without him. But hey, he was on the floor as Thomas scored 33 on super-high efficiency in that first game (that the C's only lost by 4 points). Was he not supposed to guard him? Or was he, indeed guarding everyone but IT?
I think you are looking too into it. It's pretty simple! We spread the floor and it opened up our offense! Very simple! Even Brad Stevens himself said it!! Why would you look for anything else than what exactly the coach did??? This is clear! Amir out! Green in! And BOOM our offense is fluid again!!
Eh, actually I think you may be the one looking too much into it. It sometimes is as simple as guys making shots. In those first two games, guys did not make shots. In the other 4 games, they hit their shots.
I think that's a big part of it but what I think also played a big part was that without Rondo running the offense (and basically being Playoff Rondo doing a lot of everything else on the court), the Chicago offense didn't run as well. i think the reduced effectiveness of Chicago's offense helped ease the defensive burden on the other C's players which in turn helped their offensive efforts a bit.
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A lot has been made about Rondo's effect on the series, but was he guarding everybody but Isaiah?
Because the biggest difference between the first two games and the last 4 games was the waking up of the rest of our offense outside of Thomas and Horford.
The first couple of games, the team overall scoring efficiencies (TS) were just .540 and .537, as everyone seemed still in shock over Chyna's death. The following four games it was .584, .567, .550 and .594. And that last one was with IT barely contributing as we blew them out.
Thomas was definitely the main engine, but this team overall tended to go as the 'supporting cast' offense went. So long as the guys around Thomas were making their shots, we tended to be unstoppable. When they fired blanks, the team sputtered. I think that was by far the bigger issue with those first two games than anything Rondo was doing.
I mean, certainly Rondo played great and their offense struggled without him. But hey, he was on the floor as Thomas scored 33 on super-high efficiency in that first game (that the C's only lost by 4 points). Was he not supposed to guard him? Or was he, indeed guarding everyone but IT?
I think you are looking too into it. It's pretty simple! We spread the floor and it opened up our offense! Very simple! Even Brad Stevens himself said it!! Why would you look for anything else than what exactly the coach did??? This is clear! Amir out! Green in! And BOOM our offense is fluid again!!
Eh, actually I think you may be the one looking too much into it. It sometimes is as simple as guys making shots. In those first two games, guys did not make shots. In the other 4 games, they hit their shots.
And something helped them get a better chance to make that shot and it's called better spacing for better dribble penetration and easier looks on the kick outs...
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No, I responded to your assertion that we were down 0-2 with AB shutting down Butler because that wasn't how it went down. AB didn't take him until game 3. AB was allowed to do his thing because IT4 wasn't out there getting our team destroyed by RR, they had guys that we could hide him on (barely).
This is not my point!! My point is our team last year, full of your so called GREAT DEFENDERS we can't survive without in Bradley and Crowder, were getting swept by the 8th seed in the first round!!! So much for "we are losing our great defenders, we are doom", where were they when we were getting our ass kicked at home by the Bulls??? That last year team needed 1) a rondo injury AND/OR 2) an OFFENSIVE adjustment to be able to come back and win... So as much as I like Bradley and Crowder, we are not doom with them leaving!! We actually might be better defensively with this current crew! That's MY POINT.
I already said I wasn't worried about this defense, I already know most of the new guys are good defenders.
Good!! then we agree on this at least!!
Then you asked if I wanted more iso scores over defenders and I said that they needed to do both, so no I don't want more guys who can score but stress out our D even more. That's why I said Kyrie is the only guy known to be like that and even DA said he has to be better. I brought up PHX (not Nash, he was the reference to specify which PHX iteration) because they had all the scoring you could ask for but they didn't have the other end when they need it and you were the one saying scoring is the defense.
I was trying to show you that great offense helps you defensively as well!
And if I go along your argument that phoenix team with no defense whatsoever should have been kicked out in the first round given they were defenseless and defense is crucial in the playoff!! But guess what, they made it to the WCF because their great offense did help their poor defense! Of course that goes to a certain extend, but our team has a lot of good defenders, long, athletic that will make us great offensively and good defensively (at least better than last year!)
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I don't see how our low post defense is better. Al is Al. Amir is a better low post defender than Morris. And Baynes and KO are about the same with me giving the edge to KO. Our rebounding on the defensive end in the low post is still awful.
I dont know! We might just have to agree to disagree on those ones...
If I'm getting killed down low by the Monroe, the Okafor, the Lopez of the world, I rather have Baynes in my rotation than Amir or Olynyk, for sure! We had Amir and Olynyk last couple of years and we all know way too well what kind of disaster that generated with those type of skilled low post bruisers... But anyhow, I'm sorry I can't change your mind on this if you can't see the obvious!
Also, I don't care if IT is 5'10" and Kyrie is 6'3", they are both horrible defensively and need to be hidden. By most defensive metrics Irving is actually a worse defender than Thomas.
I agree with you they were both horrible defensively last year but not in the same system and with the same effort level!! Kyrie just didn't care even trying defensively for most of the time, but when he was locked in and bothered make the effort he was miles better than IT who was trying his hardest most of the time but just had too many shortcomings physically... My eye test tells me a focused Kyrie will be better than the overachieving IT in our defensive system.
And length and athleticism is great but if you don't know how to use it, what good is it. The list of long, athletic guys that are bad defenders is too long to list. Heck when it comes to defense and rebounding its all about desire. Bradley was one of the best rebounders on the team last year but was one of the smallest guys on the court. KO was a guy with awful length and athleticism but turned himself into a good defender.
We had a bunch of overachievers last year that played with heart and grit in a system that fitted them. The reality is Hayward is not a bad defender, Tatum is not a bad defender, Baynes is not a bad defender, Theis is not a bad defender, Semi is not a bad defender, Morris is not a bad defender. So we will be improving defensively thanks to their length and athleticism.
I think we will have a defense that ranks similar to last year...middle of the pack.
So at least this is closer to my point and far away from those people panicking that we will be one of the WORST defensive team in the league next year. I think we will be very far from that! Glad to realize our views on the matter are in fact closer than I first though reading you earlier.
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To the OP, in response to your points.
1. We overcame the Bulls largely due to a series-ending injury to Rajon Rondo (who had been killing us in that series) in addition to the elite defensive job Avery Bradley did on Jimmy Butler - Bradley is now gone.
Lol! So where was Bradley pre-Rondo injury? If he was the answer, why didnt he answered the first 2 games at home...? They was one technical adjustment the coach made. just one! And it worked! Brad Stevens himself acknowledged it. But you guys keep referring to defense. Why didn't the defense composed of Bradley and Crowder notably do anything to help us win those first two games...?? We won thanks to an injury and an OFFENSIVE adjustment! Taking out a defender (in Amir) and putting in an floor spacing offensive threat (in Gerald Green)!! I dont know how i could be the only one seeing this! lol!
2. We barely overcame the Wizards in a 7 game series because the team played with no heart and no energy in half of those games. They basically laid down and said "do what you want with me, I won't fight it". There was a lack of effort on both ends of the court in the games we lost - and the blowout margins were proof of that.
This is besides my point! If last year team was so great defensively they should have been able to rely on it to win the games and maybe close the series earlier! But they relied on offensive outbursts from IT earlier in the series and Olynyk in game 7! Offense saved us here yet again! Not that defense is useless (mind you Beal was killing us and no one was found to stop him, not bradley, not crowder for ***** sake!) but the clear advantage that got us over the hump against the wizards was those offensive outbursts! Again you might not agree but that's what happened! Heart and energy can take you far but without the necessary talent to back it up they will be moments were the overachievers crash back down.... And we upgraded our team talent wise!
3. We got destroyed by the Cavs because of terrible rebounding (which has gotten worse this year) and because, as with the Washington series, we played with no heart and no effort to start the series. When IT went down the team seemed to play motivated again (as if they wanted to play harder for him, or were making up for the loss) and after actually playing with some effort and heart for the first time in the series, Boston actually took a game.
We still have an open roster spot so we could improve our rebounding which is clearly a weakness right now. But lets all agree that last year team was extremely bad in rebounding and still managed to get 1st seed and reach the ECF, so...
I think we got destroyed by a team with a well oiled offensive machine. They were scoring at will against out TOP NOTCH defenders like Crowder and Bradley... Kicking our asses at historical levels in our own building!! Yet some of you will still think we are losing so much in trading our best defenders... I think we are going to improve so much offensively that we will be able to hang with those teams like the cavs and warriors while our defense will be better than last year thanks to better length and athleticism, no IT to hide, and better low post defense.
That one game we took was more Smart offensive OUTBURST than any secret defensive strategy... otherwise why couldn't we use that same "secret defensive strategy" for the other 4 games we lost...?
4. The Cavs do have a poor defence, you are right. But they also had Kyrie Irving (one of the best closers in the game) and Lebron James (the best player in the game), and the duo of Kevin Love and Tristan Thompson (one of the best rebounding frontcourts in the NBA). When you have three offensive superstars on your team who are capable of scoring 70 PPG on their own, combined with two three frontcourt players who are capable of pulling down around 30 RPG between them, then you can kinda make up for a lack of great defence.
Unfortunately our top 3 scorers only averaged 60 PPG last year between them, our top 3 rebounding starters only averaged around 17 RPG between them, and our bench is made up almost entirely of young prospects - many of whom have yet to play a single NBA game. So we cannot get by with a bad defence quite so easily as Cleveland could last year.
Except that now we have Kyrie on OUR team! Plus Hayward! And some good defenders around them... I will take my chance with this year's team!
5. You take a Kyrie three over Steph in the finals over any AB defence? That's interesting, because without AB's defense against Jimmy Butler in Chicago we probably wouldn't make it out of the first round, I which case your Kyrie 3PT in the finals becomes nothing but a pipe dream.
I already covered this in the first point.
AB and Crowder defense was getting killed 0 - 2 on our own building until Rajon got a freak injury and Stevens made an OFFENSIVE adjustment to spread the floor! Offense got us by the Bulls! And Kyrie's shot more than Lebron's block got Cleveland their Banner!
6. Our defense is not better then last year, don't make me laugh. Our top six defenders last year were (not in any order) Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder, Al Horford, Marcus Smart, Amir Johnson, Kelly Olynyk. We lost four of those six guys. In return we gained two above average defenders (Morris and Baynes), one average defender (Hayward) and one terrible defender (Kyrie). The only consolation here is that Kyrie replaces Thomas, who was an even worse defender. Other then that we are worse on defence - way worse. Unless Brown and Tatum shock us that is.
We are better my friend. With better pieces (expect for Bradley and Crowder), with more length and athleticism, with no more hiding IT and with some better low post defense. We will be better defensively than last year's team (that you guys are now OVERRATING)...
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It's still very early but still...
https://twitter.com/ForeverGreen_/status/923968438095278085
As mentioned in the comments, this is :
Minus Hayward and Morris and smart missed 2 games...!!
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Here is what an offensive talent like Kyrie Irving did to your super duper defensive team full of all nba defensive gurus last year :
https://youtu.be/nmVIGXp2GYY
Last years team looks slow and short compared to this years team.
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Rebounding (which has gotten worse this year)
Really what stat are you basing this off? So did you just make this up? Is there some hidden stat that you're basing this statement on? Is it just your opinion?
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/total-rebounds-per-game
49.5 Rebounds per game last year which was 26th in the league. This year is 54.4 Rebounds per game, we are eighth in the league right now. So how are we worse?
The internet is a wonderful thing to look up stats and call people on their blatant falsehoods.
I love our increased athleticism and length. It makes us better in transition D, bothers shot attempts and makes the passing lanes hazardous.
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Here is what an offensive talent like Kyrie Irving did to your super duper defensive team full of all nba defensive gurus last year :
https://youtu.be/nmVIGXp2GYY
Last years team looks slow and short compared to this years team.
Last years team was slow and short compared to this years.
We're 4th in Defensive Rebounding, and third in Defensive Rating. Early still, but I like what we're seeing.
Drog FTW.
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Here is what an offensive talent like Kyrie Irving did to your super duper defensive team full of all nba defensive gurus last year :
https://youtu.be/nmVIGXp2GYY
Last years team looks slow and short compared to this years team.
Yep. Whether the end result is better is yet to be seen but this team is clearly bigger and more athletic.
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height goes a long way.
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I was noticing during the first few games - we are better on D because we have taller guys playing at the guard spots. I've always felt that if Kyrie played tough he'd be fine on D and he is. Brad demands this of his players. You can't teach height and when your 2 starting guards are 5-9 and 6-2 that's not good. Now with Kyrie (I think 6-3) and Jaylen (6-6?) we're much better as long as they stay in front - which to me means to pay attention and try .....and Brad for make them do this. And Baynes..wow! Haven't had a guy in the paint like Baynes since when Perk was healthy.
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I was noticing during the first few games - we are better on D because we have taller guys playing at the guard spots. I've always felt that if Kyrie played tough he'd be fine on D and he is. Brad demands this of his players. You can't teach height and when your 2 starting guards are 5-9 and 6-2 that's not good. Now with Kyrie (I think 6-3) and Jaylen (6-6?) we're much better as long as they stay in front - which to me means to pay attention and try .....and Brad for make them do this. And Baynes..wow! Haven't had a guy in the paint like Baynes since when Perk was healthy.
Thing about Baynes that I like is he is not a liability on offense. He has a nice touch around the rim and can shoot mid range and freethrows.
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If we just take a look at last season, and remind ourselves that Bradley was our best rebounder, it is more than obviuos that we cannot be worse than last year.
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I know it's early but curious to know what Roy and Nick think of our defense so far this year...?
As for Kyrie vs IT on defense, hope Uncle Drew can maintain this level of effort and I would very easily win this argument:
https://twitter.com/Timi_093/status/924642841154015234
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I have been saying since before the season the difference between Kyrie and IT would be substantial. And Baynes is very good on D. 8)
The rebounding is also way better. I think a lot of Celtics fans were so used to being undersized they forgot you could not do that and be good at rebounding. Hyping up AB rebounding for example when he was just snagging loose balls and easy rebounds more than really boxing guys out and controlling the glass (to be fair, AB is just about as good as anyone can be for his size, but that's the point). Some of you guys are still in shock watching it.
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I know it's early but curious to know what Roy and Nick think of our defense so far this year...?
As for Kyrie vs IT on defense, hope Uncle Drew can maintain this level of effort and I would very easily win this argument:
https://twitter.com/Timi_093/status/924642841154015234
So far, I was wrong. I'll admit that. Never expected Tatum, Kyrie or Brown to be playing at the defensive level that they are. Horford is playing better defense than last year as well. And the defensive rebounding has been well beyond what I expected.
One caveat, they haven't played any really good offensive teams thus far. Not one team they played has a good three point game.
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I know it's early but curious to know what Roy and Nick think of our defense so far this year...?
As for Kyrie vs IT on defense, hope Uncle Drew can maintain this level of effort and I would very easily win this argument:
https://twitter.com/Timi_093/status/924642841154015234
So far, I was wrong. I'll admit that. Never expected Tatum, Kyrie or Brown to be playing at the defensive level that they are. Horford is playing better defense than last year as well. And the defensive rebounding has been well beyond what I expected.
One caveat, they haven't played any really good offensive teams thus far. Not one team they played has a good three point game.
Yes that's true.
We will learn a lot more about our defense on monday night against the spurs.
But at least we can all say :
- Our defensive strategy is SOUND
- Players are trying HARD
- Athleticism and length is an upgrade and it IS helping,
- Baynes provides toughness down low (less fouling out of despair, by getting killed by lowpost scorers like monroe, howard, embid, etc...)
- We are a better rebounding team than last year
- Kyrie is less of a defensive liability than IT...
I know it's still early but I'm relatively confident the points above will hold true this year.
I truly believe that with Hayward not inkured and a good pick up before the trade deadline we would be 6-0 on our way to a competitive NBA finals lost against the warriors...
Kyrie and Tatum confirmed what I thought they could be defensively, the one I can't wait to brag about is once Semi prove to be as good (if not better) than Crowder defensively.
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Irving is buying in (still room to improve) much like Evan turner did. Brown has been very impressive, two headed monster smart and rozier as expected. Horford looking like he'll be getting votes for dpy. But BAYNES has been very very impressive. Liked his game few times i saw him last year but he really fits well with team. A complete player not just a banger. Solid jump shot, good passer, good rebounder, great at blocking out his man and as scal said over and over last night he goes up straight to deter drives. Pretty psyched and we are still gelling.
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At the 20 games mark of the season, fair to say we are by far a better defensive team.
Length matters, sound defensive system matters too.
So happy to have a bruiser so that we dont get humiliated down low by that low post scoring bigs.
Rebounding is a huge part of the defense, happy to see we are a much better rebounding team.