CelticsStrong
Around the League => Transaction Ideas and Rumors => Topic started by: ssspence on September 06, 2017, 10:48:46 AM
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CelticsHub article on fitting new pieces together has me concerned about Morris on this squad. Danny needed to make a value move at the time for Bradley, but likely isn't committed to keeping Morris.
I've long felt that Vonleh needs a crack somewhere. He could be an interesting option next to Horford or Baynes. Has shooting potential. Can block shots & board a little. Could be an Olynyk replacement.
Pat C gives them a little shooting at the 2, where we're thin. Easy to cut if roster spot is needed.
Not to mention.... two MEdited. Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.s coming home.
Portland may be interested in Morris locked up for 2 years on small money, considering their wacky salary problems at other positions, and the need to pay Nurkic. They're pretty thin at the 4.
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I really like Marcus Morris. He has some dog in him. Exactly what this team needs. Someone doing cup checks as Lebron, etc come driving in hard to the lane. I'm not saying he's Perk.... but he might have a little Perk in him.
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I'd much rather have Morris who is an established nba player than two fringe nba guys.
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I was pretty okay with the deal that sent Bradley to DET in exchange for Morris. I loved that he had an extra year on his contract (unlike Bradley) and that he was signed for a very affordable amount. It seemed like the best way to turn the looming Bradley FA into a positive. In my mind, he also served as a hybrid KO/Amir replacement since he can hit the deep ball and bang down low.
I will be interested to see how he meshes with this team. What we really need from him is to rebound, defend from the post out to the perimeter, and hit the 3-ball. We will miss the playmaking from KO, but I think Hayward should more than make up for that (it wasn't exactly Crowder's best ability).
That being said, if he doesn't quite fit in or tries to do too much iso and is taking long 2s, I wouldn't hesitate to send him for a player on a rookie contract (with at least the same # of years). It has yet to be seen if Morris can fit seamlessly into the team concept.
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From the discussed article:
http://www.celticshub.com/2017/09/03/fitting-new-look-celtics-together/
MORRIS v. CROWDER
"The difference between these players is stark. Crowder was a dramatically more efficient offensive player than Morris last season but in lower volume. Now that Crowder is gone, I suspect a lot of fans will finally recognize just how good and important he was. He embodied the “3-and-D” role and stretched defenses to the three point line all the way around the arc.
Morris plays more like early Paul Pierce, but without the ability to make the ball go in the hole. Entirely too many of his possessions included multiple dribbles. He isn’t a particularly effective scorer in off ball situations but his frequent pick-and-roll play was an unmitigated disaster. Stevens is going to have to take all of those play types out of his game.
This should be a concern for Celtics fans as Stan van Gundy was an early proponent of the spread pick-and-roll and didn’t, or couldn’t, get Morris to accept the 3-and-D role that plays a huge part of that."
CHALLENGE: SPACING
Marcus Morris can move back out of mid-range and focus on taking more of the shots that Jae used to, but he’s an average 3PT shooter for his career and only made 33% from the arc last season.
WHAT TO LOOK OUT FOR
Danny Ainge has already hinted, maybe jokingly, that there could be even more changes to come. I would be searching for more of a shooting big than a rebounder and looking around for contracts that might match up in a Marcus Morris trade. With time I’m sure Stevens could find a way to use Morris, but with time he’ll be replaced by Brown and Tatum anyway.
Basically, seems like the guy struggles to be an effective 3, and is not cut out to be a stretch 4 / rebounder. I'd rather have shooting at the 2 and 4 in role guys than an overrated Alpha type, even if he's got a good contract. I'm not worried about Wyc's check book if a guy like Vonleh pans out.
I haven't seen this Morris brother play a ton. He seems to be living more on name and rep then actual value.
That said, Morris probably should be worth more than this... maybe POR is a team that would give up more, maybe not. But I for one would resist the notion that trading Morris has to net a Bradley like return. The circumstances of that trade were specific and suboptimal, and to me, Morris has the potential to ride a decent amount of pine for the Cs.
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Morris fits this team perfectly and will most likely be the teams starting 4. Why trade him for two players on the bubble of NBA/DLeague cusp?
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Morris fits this team perfectly and will most likely be the teams starting 4. Why trade him for two players on the bubble of NBA/DLeague cusp?
How does he fit the team perfectly? Did you read what I posted above? He appears to fit the team pretty poorly, in reality.
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I'd much rather have Morris who is an established nba player than two fringe nba guys.
I get it. What I'm arguing is that Vonleh has the potential to more than NBA fringe guy. I've always liked his shooting stroke and defensive instincts.
He's still very young and would be an RFA at the end of the year. As evidenced by Noel, that gives the Cs leverage. He could be a good role guy over the next few years.
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I'd much rather have Morris who is an established nba player than two fringe nba guys.
I get it. What I'm arguing is that Vonleh has the potential to more than NBA fringe guy. I've always liked his shooting stroke and defensive instincts.
He's still very young and would be an RFA at the end of the year. As evidenced by Noel, that gives the Cs leverage. He could be a good role guy over the next few years.
It's very possible that he improves. I just think with an Irving, Horford, and Hayward core Ainge/Stevens would prefer an established player right now. They have a ton of their own players to develop.
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Morris has a very good contract, fills a need (starting PF to stretch the floor) and is the best player of the trade. So... No.
I say Vonleh intrigues me, but the stage of trying to test players is over. We want to win.
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Morris has a very good contract, fills a need (starting PF to stretch the floor) and is the best player of the trade. So... No.
I say Vonleh intrigues me, but the stage of trying to test players is over. We want to win.
Again, point is: Morris is actually not a good 'stretch the floor' guy. That's not how he's played historically. And the Cs may very well have some spacing issues as currently constituted.
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I'd much rather have Morris who is an established nba player than two fringe nba guys.
I agree with you, trading a fringe NBA starter for two scrubs isn't a good deal.
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Morris has a very good contract, fills a need (starting PF to stretch the floor) and is the best player of the trade. So... No.
I say Vonleh intrigues me, but the stage of trying to test players is over. We want to win.
Again, point is: Morris is actually not a good 'stretch the floor' guy. That's not how he's played historically. And the Cs may very well have some spacing issues as currently constituted.
As of now Morris is a much better all around player and Vonleh isn't established as a stretch anything. He's a 29% career 3 point shooter. Not good.
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Huh what?
Vonleh is basically Thomas Robinson at this point... he can rebound and nothing else. Can't shoot, can't score, doesn't block shots.
Pat Connaughton is barely in the league.
Morris is a legitimate 30mpg guy on most teams. He has his flaws but this would be an awful deal... a key role player on a top team for two end of the bench scrubs.
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Morris has a very good contract, fills a need (starting PF to stretch the floor) and is the best player of the trade. So... No.
I say Vonleh intrigues me, but the stage of trying to test players is over. We want to win.
Again, point is: Morris is actually not a good 'stretch the floor' guy. That's not how he's played historically. And the Cs may very well have some spacing issues as currently constituted.
As of now Morris is a much better all around player and Vonleh isn't established as a stretch anything. He's a 29% career 3 point shooter. Not good.
TP. Trading a dollar for two quarters is no good in this league.
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I expect Morris to be decent as a starting PF for us and the 4th option (and maybe 5th) on Offense. No, he is not a prototypical PF, no, he won't stretch the floor, but he will get buckets, play decent defense, and I believe rebound more than sufficiently. In short, he will give us what we need from our 4th or 5th best player.
I think you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Now if you can show me a way to trade Morris and bring in someone who would be better at PF, great, show me, but we don't need two more players that maybe marginally upgrade the end of our bench.
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I expect Morris to be decent as a starting PF for us and the 4th option (and maybe 5th) on Offense. No, he is not a prototypical PF, no, he won't stretch the floor, but he will get buckets, play decent defense, and I believe rebound more than sufficiently. In short, he will give us what we need from our 4th or 5th best player.
I think you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Now if you can show me a way to trade Morris and bring in someone who would be better at PF, great, show me, but we don't need two more players that maybe marginally upgrade the end of our bench.
How's he gonna get buckets with Kyrie and Hayward as a starter?
http://www.celticshub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Screen-Shot-2017-09-02-at-10.52.34-PM.png
He better come off the bench....
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Marcus Morris has shown he can play 30 minutes a game in this league. He's not a stud, but he will provide you some spacing, can play defense against Lebron and is a flexible 3/4. He's the kind of workmanlike player that every team has out there. He's not a guy who is generally going to win you games, but he's not one who is generally going to lose them either. He's not great at anything and he's a dreadful rebounder. But beyond the boards he's not terrible at anything either. While Morris didn't play a ton of PF in Detroit, he wanted to because he thinks he can be more effective there. He should do just fine in Brad's system.
Vonleh, on the other hand, has shown very little in his career. He can rebound the ball and that's about all he's shown. We have that guy in Aron Baynes already and could pick him up again in Thomas Robinson. Moreover, in 3 years he hasn't shown he can fill any kind of role on the 1st team. His game has shown almost no growth in 3 years across two different teams.
That last point is a major problem. The Cs do not have the depth in the front court to risk a flier on Vonleh. If he can't step up - and there's not much to suggest he can - then there is zero experienced depth up front. That's an awful risk to take. You'd have Horford, Baynes and whoever the Cs can get with the vet minimum. Everyone else would be untested and unbloodied. That's an incredibly thin roster.
Say Horford goes down for 10 games this coming year. It's a struggle. Baynes/Morris start with the vet minimum playing backup. Hayward moves to take a few minutes at the 4. A couple of the young guys may get a few minutes but that's the bulk of the minutes for now. If you can get 25 minutes out of Baynes and 30 from Morris, it's manageable for a short-term problem. We won't win the battle up front but at least we can put a couple of guys out there to take the major minutes who have shown they can play in the NBA.
Remove Morris and the equation is quite different. If Vonleh can't really play as a starter (and again there's no proof he can) then you're forced to move Hayward to play the 4 almost full-time because there's no one else who can. He's over-matched at that position anyway and now you have to shift everything else around. Brown or Tatum have to take the 3. Smart has to take the 2 which likely disrupts the 2nd team. The 2nd and 3rd order effects are massive. It simply isn't worth the risk.
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Marcus Morris has shown he can play 30 minutes a game in this league.
Something like that. And the more MPG he plays, the less wins his team accrues.
How many mins should he play on the Cs in 2017-18?
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Marcus Morris has shown he can play 30 minutes a game in this league.
Something like that. And the more MPG he plays, the less wins his team accrues.
How many mins should he play on the Cs in 2017-18?
1. Untrue. He played 35 mins in 15-16 and the Pistons won 44 games. He played 32 in 16-17 and his team won 37 games (and note that he didn't play at all for Detroit the year before and they won 32 games).
2. Morris will probably get 24-26 minutes per game this year. Much like Amir the last two years, he'll start games and be used situationally after that. Unlike Amir, he's more effective on the offensive end which means he can be used in more situations. If Semi or Thies step up, that will cut into Morris' minutes but I don't expect that out of rookies.
Now let me counter..
1. What makes you think Vonleh can play a significant role for the Celtics?
2. If he can't start, who plays the 4 if Horford is starting at the 5?
3. What kind of depth issues does it create without an experienced guy like Morris?
4. What makes you think that a guy who 1800 or more minutes each of the last 4 seasons and is in his prime can be classified as a "fringe" player?
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Marcus Morris has shown he can play 30 minutes a game in this league.
Something like that. And the more MPG he plays, the less wins his team accrues.
How many mins should he play on the Cs in 2017-18?
1. Untrue. He played 35 mins in 15-16 and the Pistons won 44 games. He played 32 in 16-17 and his team won 37 games (and note that he didn't play at all for Detroit the year before and they won 32 games).
2. Morris will probably get 24-26 minutes per game this year. Much like Amir the last two years, he'll start games and be used situationally after that. Unlike Amir, he's more effective on the offensive end which means he can be used in more situations. If Semi or Thies step up, that will cut into Morris' minutes but I don't expect that out of rookies.
Now let me counter..
1. What makes you think Vonleh can play a significant role for the Celtics?
2. If he can't start, who plays the 4 if Horford is starting at the 5?
3. What kind of depth issues does it create without an experienced guy like Morris?
4. What makes you think that a guy who 1800 or more minutes each of the last 4 seasons and is in his prime can be classified as a "fringe" player?
Too much ******** here. My point:
1) Morris is an overrated pickup, and a weak fit. Ship him;
2) We need a 4 who can shoot, block a shot, and board.
#2 doesn't grow on trees.
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It is an idea, just a terrible one.
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It is an idea, just a terrible one.
Thanks for no input. Do you think Morris is a good fit?
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It is an idea, just a terrible one.
Thanks for no input. Do you think Morris is a good fit?
He fills a major need. You're right in that he's not efficient, but your argument is weak when you assume Vonleh can benefit from Boston's system and the far superior player will not. He'll improve in the same vein as Jae, AB, IT, etc.
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It is an idea, just a terrible one.
Thanks for no input. Do you think Morris is a good fit?
He fills a major need. You're right in that he's not efficient, but your argument is weak when you assume Vonleh can benefit from Boston's system and the far superior player will not. He'll improve in the same vein as Jae, AB, IT, etc.
Sorry -- whats ur argument? How is he going to compliment played who replace him?
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It is an idea, just a terrible one.
Thanks for no input. Do you think Morris is a good fit?
He fills a major need. You're right in that he's not efficient, but your argument is weak when you assume Vonleh can benefit from Boston's system and the far superior player will not. He'll improve in the same vein as Jae, AB, IT, etc.
Sorry -- whats ur argument? How is he going to compliment played who replace him?
It's not that tough to compliment played who replace him. Most guys do.
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He fills a major need.
Let's go back to a productive debate. Which one? Whats he plus at? And how does it compliment the Celtics completely new roster?
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He fills a major need.
Let's go back to a productive debate. Which one? Whats he plus at? And how does it compliment the Celtics completely new roster?
I was never even debating, but again, any debate never even reaches Morris because the return is one fringe NBA player and a guy that jumps high and is good at baseball.
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He fills a major need.
Let's go back to a productive debate. Which one? Whats he plus at? And how does it compliment the Celtics completely new roster?
I was never even debating, but again, any debate never even reaches Morris because the return is one fringe NBA player and a guy that jumps high and is good at baseball.
So you're above the discussion, despite offering nothing useful, and just making a joke out of it. Strong?
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He fills a major need.
Let's go back to a productive debate. Which one? Whats he plus at? And how does it compliment the Celtics completely new roster?
I was never even debating, but again, any debate never even reaches Morris because the return is one fringe NBA player and a guy that jumps high and is good at baseball.
So you're above the discussion, despite offering nothing useful, and just making a joke out of it. Strong?
Huge gap between what I said and how you interpreted it. The trade on your return sucks, which is why the proposal is weak. Every one person in this thread has had the same response. Hopefully Morris will surprise you, he's pretty good.
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He fills a major need.
Let's go back to a productive debate. Which one? Whats he plus at? And how does it compliment the Celtics completely new roster?
I was never even debating, but again, any debate never even reaches Morris because the return is one fringe NBA player and a guy that jumps high and is good at baseball.
So you're above the discussion, despite offering nothing useful, and just making a joke out of it. Strong?
Huge gap between what I said and how you interpreted it. The trade on your return sucks, which is why the proposal is weak. Every one person in this thread has had the same response. Hopefully Morris will surprise you, he's pretty good.
Awesome analysis.
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I'd very much be up for trading Morris for the right piece - I'm not sold on how his game fits here, or his personality in general.
But not for Vonleh/Connaughton. Vonleh is young and certainly has potential, but he's shown little so far and making this move would be a massive gamble with a very high risk of not paying off.
As unconvinced as I am about Morris' fit, at least we do know what to expect from him and we know he can contribute as a starter. We need that assurance from our starting PF if we hope to get back to the ECF (or beyond).
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Too much ******** here. My point:
1) Morris is an overrated pickup, and a weak fit. Ship him;
2) We need a 4 who can shoot, block a shot, and board.
#2 doesn't grow on trees.
Noah Vonleh can't shoot or block shots, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. The guy averages 9.2 points and 0.8 blocks per 36 after 3 years, and plays half that many minutes.
He takes 75% of his shots from within 10 feet. He's made 23 three pointers in 3 years. Need I go on?
It's not a crazy premise, I just think you're going on scouting reports from college or something.
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ewwww
Noah Vonleh is not a good NBA player. Maybe someday, not yet.
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Morris is a bigger Jae, which we need right now. Between him and Smart they can defend 1-5. I would like to keep him at 5 million a year for two years.
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I admire how the opening poster is trying to counter everyone...while all people are contrary to the trade. With impressions and with numbers.
Maybe it's time to accept it is not a good idea and stop going against the rest of the world :o