CelticsStrong
Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: Roy H. on September 01, 2017, 07:57:57 PM
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Should fans focus on Kyrie's leaving, or remember him for helping them to a championship?
I can't help but compare him to Ray Allen:
* Both helped their team to a title;
* Both left their team for a primary conference rival;
* Both took less money than they could have;
* Neither communicated with their teammates before leaving town.
So, is he "Benedict Kyrie" there? And if so, does that fan base come across as a little ungrateful?
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If I were a Cavs fan, I certainly would, but still not as bad as Ray, since Kyrie didn't specifically request us.
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The difference is Kyrie was traded and for a good haul. Ray left as a free agent for less money to a rival. They could have traded Kyrie to the Knicks but they traded him to a rival that wasn't even on his list of 4 teams.
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Very different environment and scenarios. Kyrie played his role to please The Queen, while Ray had brotherly bond with the Celtics, only to spite them because of Danny Ainge. Ray was on denial and was on a huge decline. While Kyrie still have potential and wants to be on a team that will maximize it. Celtics just happened to grab him, not his exact choice. Ray left on his own accord to join the team that beat them in the playoffs. Kyrie on the other hand, joined a team that they beat, even if it wasn't in his own will.
Let's not forget Lebron is the last person who should complain about Kyrie leaving him. Now he's having a taste of his own medicine. Kyrie was on a terrible organization and Ray was in the opposite.
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Should fans focus on Kyrie's leaving, or remember him for helping them to a championship?
I can't help but compare him to Ray Allen:
* Both helped their team to a title;
* Both left their team for a primary conference rival;
* Both took less money than they could have;
* Neither communicated with their teammates before leaving town.
So, is he "Benedict Kyrie" there? And if so, does that fan base come across as a little ungrateful?
Valid points. I can't speak for the entire Cavs fanbase, but I was talking to one of my friends from Cleveland and it appears to be nothing but love for Kyrie according to him. He also made it seem like every Boston fan was burning IT's jersey after the trade, which I had to correct him on.
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Some Celtics fans would probably feel differently about Ray's departure if it netted us his replacement, a starter, and a lottery pick because he told management he wanted.
The best way to get your answer though would probably be to go ask a Cavs fan.
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The difference is Kyrie was traded and for a good haul. Ray left as a free agent for less money to a rival. They could have traded Kyrie to the Knicks but they traded him to a rival that wasn't even on his list of 4 teams.
Right: Kyrie was under contract, Ray was free to pick his next franchise. Kyrie refused to honor his deal.
I'm not sure that makes Kyrie's situation more noble.
I think forcing a trade by threatening to not play / show up for training camp is inherently worse than leaving as a free agent. That's distinct from just alerting your team in advance that you're going to leave in free agency (without demanding a trade, but not opposing one, either), which might be the most respectful way to depart.
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Kyrie is a traitor for requesting a trade at all.
Ray Allen's sin wasn't leaving as a free-agent, is how he left and to whom HE DECIDED to play for.
Yes, both are traitors to their previous organization, but for different reasons.
Ray Allen is more akin to what Kevin Durant did.
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Heck yes. Absolutely.
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There is no such thing as loyalty. Kyrie should be remembered for hitting the greatest shot in Cavs history.
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I don't see it. The dude was traded for a good haul. If we traded Ray Allen to the Heat for a decent package, I don't think the fan base would be as vocal against him. Ray Allen chose the Heat, the same way KD chose the Warriors. In Kyrie's case, Cleveland FO chose Boston.
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Some Celtics fans would probably feel differently about Ray's departure if it netted us his replacement, a starter, and a lottery pick because he told management he wanted.
The best way to get your answer though would probably be to go ask a Cavs fan.
Yeah, TP - I agree that there are some parallels, but the fact that Kyrie didn't leave Cleveland high and dry (not that he had a choice) is a humongous difference.
I would absolutely understand if Cavs fans no longer liked Kyrie - many probably think he deserted the city and the team, but they still have a great chance to win this year and are getting a great head start at a rebuild.
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Some Celtics fans would probably feel differently about Ray's departure if it netted us his replacement, a starter, and a lottery pick because he told management he wanted.
The best way to get your answer though would probably be to go ask a Cavs fan.
Yeah, TP - I agree that there are some parallels, but the fact that Kyrie didn't leave Cleveland high and dry (not that he had a choice) is a humongous difference.
I would absolutely understand if Cavs fans no longer liked Kyrie - many probably think he deserted the city and the team, but they still have a great chance to win this year and are getting a great head start at a rebuild.
Exactly. Big difference, but would still understand if they were mad.
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Kyrie did not go to a team that beat them (AKA Warriors).
Kyrie was traded and at least helped brought some pieces back to Cleveland
Ray went to a team that beat him (AKA Heat).
Ray took less money and joined a rival (AKA Heat).
Ray left as a free agent.
That's the difference between them.
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There is no doubt he's gonna get boo'd like crazy instead of cheered.
And I don't blame them. He didn't want to play for the city of Cleveland any more, and there are many questions about his attitude in the months leading up to his public trade request.
He didn't leave them high and dry like someone leaving via free agency, because it's clear when teams like Cleveland (in 2010), OKC, Utah, etc. lose players like LeBron, Durant, Hayward for nothing in return, it really hurts the future of the franchise.
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There would only be two concerns if I was a Cavs fan now: 1.) how bad is our owner 2.) the realization that LBJ as great as he is is going to leave their franchise in shambles a second time
Can you imagine Kyrie wanting to leave this situation? Playing with a generational talent, and a guaranteed trip to the finals asking for a trade. To me this speaks volumes of how destructive Lebron can be. People have bowed down to him forever, but Father Time gets us all ... this may be the beginning of people not bending over for him so much anymore.
Kyrie is not a traitor, he just could not stomach playing for the Cavs anymore ... can't wait for Lebron to give up in the ECF against us to make his exit out of Cleveland just like the last time. You know he wants no part of losing to GS again.
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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum? I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk. It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs. For me it is time to get excited about the season. I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site. Just my 2 cents.
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Kyrie is a traitor for requesting a trade at all.
Ray Allen's sin wasn't leaving as a free-agent, is how he left and to whom HE DECIDED to play for.
Yes, both are traitors to their previous organization, but for different reasons.
Ray Allen is more akin to what Kevin Durant did.
This is the difference and it's a major one. Kyrie had us on his list but the Cavs are the one to decide to send him to a rival.
Danny choosing to trade IT to the Cavs is more comparable, which is Rays point.
I can't believe we're all still talking about this
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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum? I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk. It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs. For me it is time to get excited about the season. I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site. Just my 2 cents.
It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.
Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.
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Nice try OP but the situationsettlement are not the same at all.
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No, they shouldn't.
But they will.
If a player did that to the C's, many here would regard him as a traitor as well.
We would criticize him for abandoning the team.
We would question his heart, and whether he really cares about winning, since he would be leaving an ECF contender for the foreseeable future, and say he must be a diva ball hog to need "his own team"...while simultaneously criticizing Durant and Lebron for taking the "easy way out" and joining forces with other stars...
Sports fans are weird and, shall we say, generally lack a lot of introspection and self awareness.
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Nah, that franchise has been held hostage by LeBron for the last decade. He leaves, he comes back, he picks his teammates, he pouts, he quits, he comes back.... and he'll leave again.
The price of contention is that a guy like Kyrie would rather not even be there, because it's not a team. It's the Cleveland LeBrons.
That said, of course as a fan you won't like it.
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Heck yes. Absolutely.
This
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Who cares? We aren't Cavs fans and the situations aren't remotely close to being the same.
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Yes he is a traitor and will be booed. He is not like Ray Allen because Cleveland got players back to help them win. Allen will always be hated in Boston and should be. I assume KD is despised in Oklahoma as well.
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i don't thinks so. dude left for personal reasons, and they got plenty in return. A win win situation.
i recon that 30% of "fans" will boo, and 70% will give him a proper welcome back that he deserved
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No. When he signed his 5 year deal, James, who plays Irving's position, causes drama, and casts a big shadow (as David Griffin put it), wasn't on the team.
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They got good value back, and from what I've seen online the reactions were not hateful.
This might change as the season progresses.
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Each fan should make his own decision and each is right. It is an individual thing.
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I'm trying to imagine the things Roy (and I) and the rest of us would have said if right after our championship Rondo made a trade demand and wouldn't talk to his teammates, and then it comes out it's because he can't stand KG.
I'd hate him forever and never be able to take him seriously.
That said I think the true Judases are unseen. I think they're the guys that see an internal team matter and start leaking out ugly private details so that the situation becomes completely unsolvable and it destroys the trade leverage the team may have had. This is why Trump attacks the media. It's very difficult to find the leaker so you have to sorta try to take away the power of the leaker. Demand names or it's a lie. Refute stories and put out counter stories. Reduce media access to the team. Belichick is also a media master.
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I'm trying to imagine the things Roy (and I) and the rest of us would have said if right after our championship Rondo made a trade demand and wouldn't talk to his teammates, and then it comes out it's because he can't stand KG.
I'd hate him forever and never be able to take him seriously.
That said I think the true Judases are unseen. I think they're the guys that see an internal team matter and start leaking out ugly private details so that the situation becomes completely unsolvable and it destroys the trade leverage the team may have had. This is why Trump attacks the media. It's very difficult to find the leaker so you have to sorta try to take away the power of the leaker. Demand names or it's a lie. Refute stories and put out counter stories. Reduce media access to the team. Belichick is also a media master.
Id change the scenario slightly and add that it would be like after '08 danny tries to trade rondo with kg and pierce's permission, then the deal falls through, rondo finds out and then asks for a trade.
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i guess Cheveland will retire his jersey
has anybody else ever did anything noteable from there . .. need to build an Uncle Drew Statue .
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I'm trying to imagine the things Roy (and I) and the rest of us would have said if right after our championship Rondo made a trade demand and wouldn't talk to his teammates, and then it comes out it's because he can't stand KG.
I'd hate him forever and never be able to take him seriously.
That said I think the true Judases are unseen. I think they're the guys that see an internal team matter and start leaking out ugly private details so that the situation becomes completely unsolvable and it destroys the trade leverage the team may have had. This is why Trump attacks the media. It's very difficult to find the leaker so you have to sorta try to take away the power of the leaker. Demand names or it's a lie. Refute stories and put out counter stories. Reduce media access to the team. Belichick is also a media master.
Id change the scenario slightly and add that it would be like after '08 danny tries to trade rondo with kg and pierce's permission, then the deal falls through, rondo finds out and then asks for a trade.
Good hypothetical:
However, there’s another reason Irving has asked to be traded, and it’s pretty ironic. Apparently Irving asked to be traded because the Cavs tried to trade him.
Seriously! It turns out Irving’s name was thrown out in the Cavaliers’ attempts to acquire either Jimmy Butler or Paul George. However, the Cavs didn’t give Irving the courtesy of informing him about the talks.
Apparently former Cavs GM David Griffin had a strong relationship with Kyrie. He openly discussed the point guard’s concerns about playing second fiddle and assured him that he was trying to find a solution. Griffin also kept Kyrie in the loop.
That was not the case after Griffin was forced out by owner Dan Gilbert. With Griffin gone, nobody told Kyrie that they were willing to part with him. When he found out, he was p---ed.
http://www.totalprosports.com/2017/07/24/report-kyrie-irving-upset-cavs-included-him-trade-talks/
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Should fans focus on Kyrie's leaving, or remember him for helping them to a championship?
I can't help but compare him to Ray Allen:
* Both helped their team to a title;
* Both left their team for a primary conference rival;
* Both took less money than they could have;
* Neither communicated with their teammates before leaving town.
So, is he "Benedict Kyrie" there? And if so, does that fan base come across as a little ungrateful?
The Ray Allen comparison is way off. Ray was in the twilight of his career and left to go to a team that the Celtics just recently lost to in the ECF Finals to ring-chase. Ray also left because of the way Doc inserted Avery Bradley into the lineup over him. If Ray had demanded a trade, I could see it, but he chose to go to Miami and we got nothing back for him.
I think the Chris Paul trade is probably the best comparison. Basically makes it known that he would like to be moved now instead of playing out the string, and allows his team to get something back for him versus walking in free agency.
We as fans should actually be grateful that players request trades versus waiting to leave in free agency, at least our teams can get some pieces in return. The Cavs fans should feel the same way.
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Should fans focus on Kyrie's leaving, or remember him for helping them to a championship?
I can't help but compare him to Ray Allen:
* Both helped their team to a title;
* Both left their team for a primary conference rival;
* Both took less money than they could have;
* Neither communicated with their teammates before leaving town.
So, is he "Benedict Kyrie" there? And if so, does that fan base come across as a little ungrateful?
The Ray Allen comparison is way off. Ray was in the twilight of his career and left to go to a team that the Celtics just recently lost to in the ECF Finals to ring-chase. Ray also left because of the way Doc inserted Avery Bradley into the lineup over him. If Ray had demanded a trade, I could see it, but he chose to go to Miami and we got nothing back for him.
I think the Chris Paul trade is probably the best comparison. Basically makes it known that he would like to be moved now instead of playing out the string, and allows his team to get something back for him versus walking in free agency.
We as fans should actually be grateful that players request trades versus waiting to leave in free agency, at least our teams can get some pieces in return. The Cavs fans should feel the same way.
The Cavs should be grateful that a star player demanded a trade with two full seasons left on his deal? I don't see that as better.
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If I was a Cavs fan I'd be p---ed at Kyrie as well - and I'd be p---ed at LeBUM
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I don't think Cavs fans are particularly bitter about the situation for the simple reason that they feel they won the trade.
From their perspective they replaced 100% of Irving's production with Isaiah AND picked up two more players and two draft picks.
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Yes, they have a reason to be mad at him. But like me and my feelings over Ray most of them will get over it in time. They will say thanks for the ring and that's about it.
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I'm trying to imagine the things Roy (and I) and the rest of us would have said if right after our championship Rondo made a trade demand and wouldn't talk to his teammates, and then it comes out it's because he can't stand KG.
I'd hate him forever and never be able to take him seriously.
That said I think the true Judases are unseen. I think they're the guys that see an internal team matter and start leaking out ugly private details so that the situation becomes completely unsolvable and it destroys the trade leverage the team may have had. This is why Trump attacks the media. It's very difficult to find the leaker so you have to sorta try to take away the power of the leaker. Demand names or it's a lie. Refute stories and put out counter stories. Reduce media access to the team. Belichick is also a media master.
But what if KG was set to be a free agent and was letting public speculation run rampant that he was leaving for the Lakers?
People seem to be really out to paint Irving in a bad light because they just want to be grouches and pee in everyone's cheerios. But I can see why he wanted out. Playing with LeBron is obviously a great opportunity but it also comes with a lot of drama, which LeBron himself seems to relish in.
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Should fans focus on Kyrie's leaving, or remember him for helping them to a championship?
I can't help but compare him to Ray Allen:
* Both helped their team to a title;
* Both left their team for a primary conference rival;
* Both took less money than they could have;
* Neither communicated with their teammates before leaving town.
So, is he "Benedict Kyrie" there? And if so, does that fan base come across as a little ungrateful?
I think they should be grateful. However, if the Celtics start beating the Cavs and win a ring(s), I could see that town getting even more bitter when Lebron leaves and become Kyrie Hater Central
I think most rational CLE fans realize that Kyrie and Lebron weren't clicking. If given the choice of Kyrie or Lebron, 99% would pick Lebron. After winning a ring, he wanted to go somewhere to help build a team to win as the man. Not many high achievers like to be the second best in the room. I would make the same choice if I were him.
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Should fans focus on Kyrie's leaving, or remember him for helping them to a championship?
I can't help but compare him to Ray Allen:
* Both helped their team to a title;
* Both left their team for a primary conference rival;
* Both took less money than they could have;
* Neither communicated with their teammates before leaving town.
So, is he "Benedict Kyrie" there? And if so, does that fan base come across as a little ungrateful?
The Ray Allen comparison is way off. Ray was in the twilight of his career and left to go to a team that the Celtics just recently lost to in the ECF Finals to ring-chase. Ray also left because of the way Doc inserted Avery Bradley into the lineup over him. If Ray had demanded a trade, I could see it, but he chose to go to Miami and we got nothing back for him.
I think the Chris Paul trade is probably the best comparison. Basically makes it known that he would like to be moved now instead of playing out the string, and allows his team to get something back for him versus walking in free agency.
We as fans should actually be grateful that players request trades versus waiting to leave in free agency, at least our teams can get some pieces in return. The Cavs fans should feel the same way.
The Cavs should be grateful that a star player demanded a trade with two full seasons left on his deal? I don't see that as better.
Yeah, they should. What did OKC get for Durant? What did the Cavs get when Lebron went to Miami.
They got zero, nothing, nada, zilch, for the two top talents in the league. Had Durant and Lebron told management that they wanted a trade, how better off would those two franchise have been? I will wager much better.
So yes - Cleveland fans should be thankful that Kyrie opted to ask for a trade versus play out the string and leave in free agency.
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Ray Allen situation is not even close to Kyrie's.
One joined the team that had defeated him. The other joined the team he had defeated.
Comparing anything past that is an extreme reach when you consider their initial circumstances are EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE!!!!
What a reach.
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Lebron makes the situation different.
Yes he is a traitor, but what level of loyalty should you expect when Lebron is team leader?
I think not being a member of the Lebron soap opera is a legit reason for leaving and the disastrous ownership doesn't help.
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If I were a Cavs fan, I'd have to consider him a major traitor.
The truth is, he burst their little bubble for this coming year, the last year of LeCarpetbagger.
They were most likely all ready to make another finals run. With Irving replaced by IT, not so much. Even if they get into the finals, and they actually may, IT will be abused by Golden State something fierce. Who will they hide him on? Curry, Thompson, Green?
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Kyrie is a major reason Cleveland won its first title in any sport in how many years? 50-60? A few years from now kyrie should and will only be remembered fondly in Cleveland.
It's kind of like everyone from the 2004 Red Sox team for me. I don't care that schilling is a huge d bag, mannys attitude resulted in us having to trade him in 2008 when maybe we coulda won it all again if we had held on to him, Damon left for the hated Yankees - all is forgiven for me bc they were the curse breakers. Same guys did the same thing to the Celtics and I'd feel differently bc the 2004 Red Sox title meant more - way more. That's how I think Cleveland fans should and will think of kyrie eventually. He will and should get booed at first - but I think that will be short lived
Also if lebron leaves again after this year, Cleveland will forget entirely that kyrie even demanded a trade.
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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum? I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk. It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs. For me it is time to get excited about the season. I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site. Just my 2 cents.
It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.
Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.
I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.
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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum? I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk. It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs. For me it is time to get excited about the season. I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site. Just my 2 cents.
It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.
Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.
I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.
Kyrie literally forced his way off his team. He literally betrayed his teammates and fans. He dishonored his contract and broke up a championship behavior.
It's way worse than anything Ray did. It's like if KG had forced a trade to the Lakers for Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, and a pick after the 2009 season.
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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum? I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk. It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs. For me it is time to get excited about the season. I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site. Just my 2 cents.
It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.
Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.
I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.
Kyrie literally forced his way off his team. He literally betrayed his teammates and fans. He dishonored his contract and broke up a championship behavior.
It's way worse than anything Ray did. It's like if KG had forced a trade to the Lakers for Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, and a pick after the 2009 season.
I honestly think you are reaching a bit here Roy. There is tons of disfunction going around Cleveland right now. The full story seems to be that one of the main factors that made him ask for a trade was a combination of letting Griffin go (who he had a great working relationship with), putting him in a trade talk that was nearly completed without giving a courtesy heads up plus having a ton of ongoing disfunction from Lebron constantly keeping the team in limbo by being unwilling to commit to the team beyond year to year. I am not even here to say that Ray or Irving did anything particularly right or wrong. They are just extremely different situations in every context
Different point in their careers
Different talent level (all-star versus role player)
One went to the team he beat while the other went to the team that beat him.
One team a circus (fired gm, no long term commitment from star, firing of coach, criticism on court and in media from Lebron) compared to relative "brotherhood and ubunto" between Celtics players.
1 team received very high compensation for the player leaving, the other received nothing
Feels like trying to force a square peg into a round hole...
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Ray Allen had the choice between a bigger contract with his current team or a smaller contract with our biggest rival. A major factor was that he found out he was being shopped, although the Celitcs offered him a No Trade Clause in the new contract that they offered him. The Celtics ended up with nothing and Ray Allen hit the game winning shot essentially to win the Heat a Championship.
Kyrie found out that the #1 player on his team was floating rumors that he (LeBron) is leaving in the off season. Kyrie also found out that he (Kyrie) was being shopped, so then Kyrie asked for a trade in private, but then LeBron's camp likely leaked his private request to the media. (http://www.newsweek.com/sport-lebron-james-nba-640862). Then Kyrie found out that the Celtics were an option and the Celtics gave a fair return in exchange for Kyrie.
I still think Ray is worse, but in both cases the player was being shopped before they left the team.
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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum? I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk. It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs. For me it is time to get excited about the season. I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site. Just my 2 cents.
It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.
Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.
I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.
Kyrie literally forced his way off his team. He literally betrayed his teammates and fans. He dishonored his contract and broke up a championship behavior.
It's way worse than anything Ray did. It's like if KG had forced a trade to the Lakers for Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, and a pick after the 2009 season.
I honestly think you are reaching a bit here Roy. There is tons of disfunction going around Cleveland right now. The full story seems to be that one of the main factors that made him ask for a trade was a combination of letting Griffin go (who he had a great working relationship with), putting him in a trade talk that was nearly completed without giving a courtesy heads up plus having a ton of ongoing disfunction from Lebron constantly keeping the team in limbo by being unwilling to commit to the team beyond year to year. I am not even here to say that Ray or Irving did anything particularly right or wrong. They are just extremely different situations in every context
Different point in their careers
Different talent level (all-star versus role player)
One went to the team he beat while the other went to the team that beat him.
One team a circus (fired gm, no long term commitment from star, firing of coach, criticism on court and in media from Lebron) compared to relative "brotherhood and ubunto" between Celtics players.
1 team received very high compensation for the player leaving, the other received nothing
Feels like trying to force a square peg into a round hole...
No, I tend to hold a similar view of anybody who forces a trade. That's probably amplified when a guy refuses to talk to his teammates about his decision.
If Hayward or Smart or Tatum ever force a trade off a 3-time finalist and refuse to honor their contract, we can revisit this. What Kyrie did to his teammates and city is pretty much the ultimate betrayal.
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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum? I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk. It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs. For me it is time to get excited about the season. I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site. Just my 2 cents.
It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.
Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.
I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.
Kyrie literally forced his way off his team. He literally betrayed his teammates and fans. He dishonored his contract and broke up a championship behavior.
It's way worse than anything Ray did. It's like if KG had forced a trade to the Lakers for Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, and a pick after the 2009 season.
I honestly think you are reaching a bit here Roy. There is tons of disfunction going around Cleveland right now. The full story seems to be that one of the main factors that made him ask for a trade was a combination of letting Griffin go (who he had a great working relationship with), putting him in a trade talk that was nearly completed without giving a courtesy heads up plus having a ton of ongoing disfunction from Lebron constantly keeping the team in limbo by being unwilling to commit to the team beyond year to year. I am not even here to say that Ray or Irving did anything particularly right or wrong. They are just extremely different situations in every context
Different point in their careers
Different talent level (all-star versus role player)
One went to the team he beat while the other went to the team that beat him.
One team a circus (fired gm, no long term commitment from star, firing of coach, criticism on court and in media from Lebron) compared to relative "brotherhood and ubunto" between Celtics players.
1 team received very high compensation for the player leaving, the other received nothing
Feels like trying to force a square peg into a round hole...
No, I tend to hold a similar view of anybody who forces a trade. That's probably amplified when a guy refuses to talk to his teammates about his decision.
If Hayward or Smart or Tatum ever force a trade off a 3-time finalist and refuse to honor their contract, we can revisit this. What Kyrie did to his teammates and city is pretty much the ultimate betrayal.
I really hope you come to love Irving. This seems like the most upset I have seen you about something in my decade plus on Celtics forums..
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Roy, I have read your posts for years and I have always enjoyed your insight. I don't always agree but, I have always respected your input and feel you really know the game. That brings us to Kyrie, for better or worse Kyrie is a Celtic now. Who cares what the Cavs think? Isn't that a topic for a Cav's forum? I know Kyrie isn't perfect, but I think we should give him a chance under Brad Stevens. I also believe Kyrie deserves our support. I will truly miss IT, but I really don't think Danny was going to pay him max money and was going to let him walk. It doesn't matter because he is now with he Cavs. For me it is time to get excited about the season. I watched the Bird era and new I was seeing something truly special. Since then I have seen a lot as a Celtic fan, some good, some bad and some Great! The one constant was and is that I love the Celtics. This is our team and I feel we need to get behind them. I don't post here often but always check in and enjoy this site. Just my 2 cents.
It's a Celtics topic because it involves a Celtics player and because it's parallel to Ray.
Many Celtics fans hate Ray for not showing loyalty, and for not informing teammates of his decision. It's interesting to see many of those same people embracing a guy who was actively disloyal who didn't talk to his teammates about his situation. It's an interesting study in cognitive dissonance, at least.
I really think this is comparison is a pretty weak comparison. If Ray Allen jump started our rebuild by netting us a lottery pick and a starter and a bench player nobody would hold any sort of grudge against him (or next to nobody would). Also Irving got traded to the rival that was not even on his list of desired destinations. This topic strikes me as a real stretch.
Kyrie literally forced his way off his team. He literally betrayed his teammates and fans. He dishonored his contract and broke up a championship behavior.
It's way worse than anything Ray did. It's like if KG had forced a trade to the Lakers for Andrew Bynum, Trevor Ariza, and a pick after the 2009 season.
I honestly think you are reaching a bit here Roy. There is tons of disfunction going around Cleveland right now. The full story seems to be that one of the main factors that made him ask for a trade was a combination of letting Griffin go (who he had a great working relationship with), putting him in a trade talk that was nearly completed without giving a courtesy heads up plus having a ton of ongoing disfunction from Lebron constantly keeping the team in limbo by being unwilling to commit to the team beyond year to year. I am not even here to say that Ray or Irving did anything particularly right or wrong. They are just extremely different situations in every context
Different point in their careers
Different talent level (all-star versus role player)
One went to the team he beat while the other went to the team that beat him.
One team a circus (fired gm, no long term commitment from star, firing of coach, criticism on court and in media from Lebron) compared to relative "brotherhood and ubunto" between Celtics players.
1 team received very high compensation for the player leaving, the other received nothing
Feels like trying to force a square peg into a round hole...
No, I tend to hold a similar view of anybody who forces a trade. That's probably amplified when a guy refuses to talk to his teammates about his decision.
If Hayward or Smart or Tatum ever force a trade off a 3-time finalist and refuse to honor their contract, we can revisit this. What Kyrie did to his teammates and city is pretty much the ultimate betrayal.
I really hope you come to love Irving. This seems like the most upset I have seen you about something in my decade plus on Celtics forums..
I'm pretty much over it. That doesn't mean I can't root for Kyrie and properly note that he betrayed his teammates and fans. Like the guy who marries the woman who cheated on her prior husband, I'll keep my fingers crossed that he's gotten the disloyalty and selfishness out of his system.
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Should fans focus on Kyrie's leaving, or remember him for helping them to a championship?
I can't help but compare him to Ray Allen:
* Both helped their team to a title;
* Both left their team for a primary conference rival;
* Both took less money than they could have;
* Neither communicated with their teammates before leaving town.
So, is he "Benedict Kyrie" there? And if so, does that fan base come across as a little ungrateful?
I'm not sure why you have such a personal vendetta against Kyrie, but you really seem to be going out of your way to do everything you can to try and smear his image and turn Celtics fans against him.
The Kyrie situation is not the same as the Ray Allen situation.
Ray Situation
Pierce, KG and Ray all formed together willingly in Boston. Even though KG and Ray arrived via trade, those trades essentially happened because they told their former teams that they were happy to be there - they wanted to go to Boston, they wanted to form a Big 3 together, they wanted to compete for titles together.
And they did. They won a title their first year together, and followed that up with multiple years of deep playoff runs.
Then they forged a bitter rivalry with the Heat - these teams practically had pure hatred for each other - and after an extremely painful and hard fought loss at the hand of the Heat, rather than saying "lets come back harder next year and beat them this time", Ray left and joined them. It's not that he joined the rival Heat, it's that he joined the rival Heat AFTER the Celtics just lost to them in heartbreaking fashion. It's like Ray just gave up and said "If you can't beat them, join them" and skipped town.
Then to make matters worse, Ray made major compromises to join the Heat. Not only did he take a LOT less money (less money than the Celtics had already offered him, along with apparently a no trade clause), he also took a lesser role. He would have been at least a 6th man in Boston, and would have played starters minutes due to their lack of depth. So he sacrificed money, a no trade clause and minutes to go to Miami. That was basically a massive "screw you" to Boston.
Then on top of all this, once he eventually DID go to Miami, he went on to make it a point to publically badmouth the Celtics organisation at every opportunity.
Kyrie Situation
To start with, Kyrie never chose to play with Lebron or with Kevin Love. He never agreed to join up with those guys in Cleveland. He was drafted to Cleveland, and the Cavs offered him an extension with all the promise that they would build around him as the centre and franchise player of the team. Then right after he accepted that extension, they signed Lebron James and traded for Kevin Love, and suddenly Kyrie was stuck as the #2 man living constantly in Lebron's shadow. Kyrie was the face of the Cavs when he signed his extension - Lebron was the face of the Cavs the instant he showed up. So Kyrie was basically lied to, and then forced into a situation that he never really wanted to be in - and credit to him for ultimately keeping his mouth shut for 3 seasons and trying to make the best of it. Unlike Ray who was traded to a situation he WANTED to go to.
Secondly, Kyrie has two years left on his deal, and he's stuck in the middle of a Cavs team that ultimately has clear no future direction. They just lost their GM who helped put this whole winning franchise together. On top of that Lebron is on the last year of his deal, and there's a great deal of speculation that he will leave next year. If he does then the Cavs would still be way over the cap, so it would be years before they would be able to clear enough cap space or acquire enough assets to actually make the team relevant again - Kyrie could waste the next 3-5 seasons on a crappy lottery bound Cleveland team with lost management that doesn't know what they are doing. Comparatively, Ray Allen knew exactly where he was with Boston. They were in win-now mode and they wanted a championship, nothing less. There was no such uncertainty. Boston's front office wasn't going anywhere, and Doc would have stuck around longer for sure if Ray had stayed - he would have had certain continuity.
Thirdly. Kyrie didn't take less money to come to Boston, really. He sacrificed a trade kicker. That trade kicker was money that he never would have made if he stayed in Cleveland. It's extra money he COULD have made on top if he came to Boston, but he waived it to make the deal happen. He's not losing any money there. As far as I know Boston will retain his contractual rights just as Clevleand would have, so he shouldn't be giving up any money when it comes time to resign either. So not the same as Ray, who took LESS money and sacrificed a no trade clause to skip town to the rival.
Next, Kyrie left to go to Boston in the aim of a bigger role on the team. In Cleveland he was Robin, Lebron was Batman. Kyrie is tired of being Robin, he feels he's good enough to be Batman, so why should he be somebody's Robin? He knows as long as he's in Cleveland he can NEVER be Batman, and the only way for that to happen is for him to leave town. So he did exactly that, requested to be transferred to a city where he can be Batman. Ray Allen on the other hand was Robin in Boston - fighting by Batman's side every day. He gave up the role of Robin so that he could be demoted to the role of Alfred, Batman's butler, in Miami - so he could make a living bringing Batman ice tea and shining his shoes.
Finally, Kyrie did not leave to join the guys who just beat him. Nobody can accuse him of being cowardly by taking on a "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality. Nobody can accuse him of saying "I want to take the easy way to a title, I'm going to leave my team and go join the favourites". No. If anything he's doing the opposite - he's leaving the easy path and taking the more challenging path. He's recognising that he's not gong to develop as a player if he keeps playing second fiddle to the very best - the only way for him to push the envelope and become better as a player is for him to go AGAINST the best, You have to go against the best and beat the best in order to become the best - he's welcoming that challenge. He knows Lebron is the best player in the NBA - he knows that in order to become the player he wants to be, he needs to beat Lebron. That way he can well and truly prove that he IS Batman, not just Robin hiding inside a Batman suit.
Finally, I have not heard Kyrie say a single bad thing about Cleveland or any of his former teammates since the trade. He's expressed nothing but love for the City, for the team, for his former teammates. He's been poked and prodded constantly by reporters trying to get juicy gossip out of him, and he's blatantly denied and absolutely refused to give in and say a single bad thing. He's handled that side of things with the utmost of class, and even if he DOES had negative feelings towards Lebron or Cleveland, he's keeping it to himself.
So in actual fact, what Kyrie is doing he is not even remotely close to what Ray did. It's actually pretty much the complete opposite of what Ray did.
Look man, I have no problem with you NOT liking the trade. I have no problem with you NOT liking Kyrie and NOT wanting him to be a Celtic. I have no problem with you NOT wanting Isaiah to be in Cleveland. I totally respect those feelings that you have, and I understand them completely.
I have my own reservations about this trade. I don't necessarily love all facets of the deal. I don't necessarily love where the Celtics are as a team right now - I feel the roster is full of holes and filled with uncertainty, and that the team is investing way too much hope in the highly optimistic hope that one or two of our prospects are going to leap out of nowhere, put on a cape, and be the saviours for this team. I also worry that we gave up a lot of our future flexibility to be where we are, and if a trade does come up for somebody like Anthony Davis, we are no longer the team best equipped to pull it off - in fact I feel that we, for the first time in years, have relatively little to offer. I'm also not 100% convinced this team will be capable of playing anything resembling passable defence, I'm concerned about our total lack of rebounding, and I'm legitimately concerned that Kyrie may never become the Batman that he believes he is - I think he it's certainly possible, but hardly a given.
So I do completely understand your reservations. However what I think is not cool is that I feel like you are just making one attempt after the other to try to twist reality in your favour in order to smear Kyrie - and I don't think that's fair. The guy is a legitimate star, he's in Boston, he WANTS to be in Boston, and he wants to be the best Celtic he can be for us - the fans. Why don't we at least give him that chance?
I still recall how many people hated the Pierce/KG trade. I remember how may people hated the Isaiah Thomas trade - so many CBloggers were complaining that Thomas isn't good enough to carry a team, that he's too short, that he's too much of a defensive liability, that he's a ball hog, a chucker and a black hole. I think anybody would be hard pressed right now to criticise either of those two moves. So lets give Kyrie a chance to play his way into our hearts, just as Isaiah did.
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Should fans focus on Kyrie's leaving, or remember him for helping them to a championship?
I can't help but compare him to Ray Allen:
* Both helped their team to a title;
* Both left their team for a primary conference rival;
* Both took less money than they could have;
* Neither communicated with their teammates before leaving town.
So, is he "Benedict Kyrie" there? And if so, does that fan base come across as a little ungrateful?
I'm not sure why you have such a personal vendetta against Kyrie, but you really seem to be going out of your way to do everything you can to try and smear his image and turn Celtics fans against him.
The Kyrie situation is not the same as the Ray Allen situation.
Ray Situation
Pierce, KG and Ray all formed together willingly in Boston. Even though KG and Ray arrived via trade, those trades essentially happened because they told their former teams that they were happy to be there - they wanted to go to Boston, they wanted to form a Big 3 together, they wanted to compete for titles together.
And they did. They won a title their first year together, and followed that up with multiple years of deep playoff runs.
Then they forged a bitter rivalry with the Heat - these teams practically had pure hatred for each other - and after an extremely painful and hard fought loss at the hand of the Heat, rather than saying "lets come back harder next year and beat them this time", Ray left and joined them. It's not that he joined the rival Heat, it's that he joined the rival Heat AFTER the Celtics just lost to them in heartbreaking fashion. It's like Ray just gave up and said "If you can't beat them, join them" and skipped town.
Then to make matters worse, Ray made major compromises to join the Heat. Not only did he take a LOT less money (less money than the Celtics had already offered him, along with apparently a no trade clause), he also took a lesser role. He would have been at least a 6th man in Boston, and would have played starters minutes due to their lack of depth. So he sacrificed money, a no trade clause and minutes to go to Miami. That was basically a massive "screw you" to Boston.
Then on top of all this, once he eventually DID go to Miami, he went on to make it a point to publically badmouth the Celtics organisation at every opportunity.
Kyrie Situation
To start with, Kyrie never chose to play with Lebron or with Kevin Love. He never agreed to join up with those guys in Cleveland. He was drafted to Cleveland, and the Cavs offered him an extension with all the promise that they would build around him as the centre and franchise player of the team. Then right after he accepted that extension, they signed Lebron James and traded for Kevin Love, and suddenly Kyrie was stuck as the #2 man living constantly in Lebron's shadow. Kyrie was the face of the Cavs when he signed his extension - Lebron was the face of the Cavs the instant he showed up. So Kyrie was basically lied to, and then forced into a situation that he never really wanted to be in - and credit to him for ultimately keeping his mouth shut for 3 seasons and trying to make the best of it. Unlike Ray who was traded to a situation he WANTED to go to.
Secondly, Kyrie has two years left on his deal, and he's stuck in the middle of a Cavs team that ultimately has clear no future direction. They just lost their GM who helped put this whole winning franchise together. On top of that Lebron is on the last year of his deal, and there's a great deal of speculation that he will leave next year. If he does then the Cavs would still be way over the cap, so it would be years before they would be able to clear enough cap space or acquire enough assets to actually make the team relevant again - Kyrie could waste the next 3-5 seasons on a crappy lottery bound Cleveland team with lost management that doesn't know what they are doing. Comparatively, Ray Allen knew exactly where he was with Boston. They were in win-now mode and they wanted a championship, nothing less. There was no such uncertainty. Boston's front office wasn't going anywhere, and Doc would have stuck around longer for sure if Ray had stayed - he would have had certain continuity.
Thirdly. Kyrie didn't take less money to come to Boston, really. He sacrificed a trade kicker. That trade kicker was money that he never would have made if he stayed in Cleveland. It's extra money he COULD have made on top if he came to Boston, but he waived it to make the deal happen. He's not losing any money there. As far as I know Boston will retain his contractual rights just as Clevleand would have, so he shouldn't be giving up any money when it comes time to resign either. So not the same as Ray, who took LESS money and sacrificed a no trade clause to skip town to the rival.
Next, Kyrie left to go to Boston in the aim of a bigger role on the team. In Cleveland he was Robin, Lebron was Batman. Kyrie is tired of being Robin, he feels he's good enough to be Batman, so why should he be somebody's Robin? He knows as long as he's in Cleveland he can NEVER be Batman, and the only way for that to happen is for him to leave town. So he did exactly that, requested to be transferred to a city where he can be Batman. Ray Allen on the other hand was Robin in Boston - fighting by Batman's side every day. He gave up the role of Robin so that he could be demoted to the role of Alfred, Batman's butler, in Miami - so he could make a living bringing Batman ice tea and shining his shoes.
Finally, Kyrie did not leave to join the guys who just beat him. Nobody can accuse him of being cowardly by taking on a "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality. Nobody can accuse him of saying "I want to take the easy way to a title, I'm going to leave my team and go join the favourites". No. If anything he's doing the opposite - he's leaving the easy path and taking the more challenging path. He's recognising that he's not gong to develop as a player if he keeps playing second fiddle to the very best - the only way for him to push the envelope and become better as a player is for him to go AGAINST the best, You have to go against the best and beat the best in order to become the best - he's welcoming that challenge. He knows Lebron is the best player in the NBA - he knows that in order to become the player he wants to be, he needs to beat Lebron. That way he can well and truly prove that he IS Batman, not just Robin hiding inside a Batman suit.
Finally, I have not heard Kyrie say a single bad thing about Cleveland or any of his former teammates since the trade. He's expressed nothing but love for the City, for the team, for his former teammates. He's been poked and prodded constantly by reporters trying to get juicy gossip out of him, and he's blatantly denied and absolutely refused to give in and say a single bad thing. He's handled that side of things with the utmost of class, and even if he DOES had negative feelings towards Lebron or Cleveland, he's keeping it to himself.
So in actual fact, what Kyrie is doing he is not even remotely close to what Ray did. It's actually pretty much the complete opposite of what Ray did.
Look man, I have no problem with you NOT liking the trade. I have no problem with you NOT liking Kyrie and NOT wanting him to be a Celtic. I have no problem with you NOT wanting Isaiah to be in Cleveland. I totally respect those feelings that you have, and I understand them completely.
I have my own reservations about this trade. I don't necessarily love all facets of the deal. I don't necessarily love where the Celtics are as a team right now - I feel the roster is full of holes and filled with uncertainty, and that the team is investing way too much hope in the highly optimistic hope that one or two of our prospects are going to leap out of nowhere, put on a cape, and be the saviours for this team. I also worry that we gave up a lot of our future flexibility to be where we are, and if a trade does come up for somebody like Anthony Davis, we are no longer the team best equipped to pull it off - in fact I feel that we, for the first time in years, have relatively little to offer. I'm also not 100% convinced this team will be capable of playing anything resembling passable defence, I'm concerned about our total lack of rebounding, and I'm legitimately concerned that Kyrie may never become the Batman that he believes he is - I think he it's certainly possible, but hardly a given.
So I do completely understand your reservations. However what I think is not cool is that I feel like you are just making one attempt after the other to try to twist reality in your favour in order to smear Kyrie - and I don't think that's fair. The guy is a legitimate star, he's in Boston, he WANTS to be in Boston, and he wants to be the best Celtic he can be for us - the fans. Why don't we at least give him that chance?
I still recall how many people hated the Pierce/KG trade. I remember how may people hated the Isaiah Thomas trade - so many CBloggers were complaining that Thomas isn't good enough to carry a team, that he's too short, that he's too much of a defensive liability, that he's a ball hog, a chucker and a black hole. I think anybody would be hard pressed right now to criticise either of those two moves. So lets give Kyrie a chance to play his way into our hearts, just as Isaiah did.
I agree with this. I have enjoyed reading this blog over the years, I come here as a Celtics fan to get excited about our team and the season. It is fun reading all the different opinions, it is what makes this such a great forum.
But, when I read a post that says: "traitor" / "Judas"? I think, Really? Judas?
That just seems mean. I was never upset with Ray when he left, I figure it was his right to do what he felt was best for him. For me that didn't take away from Ray helping us win the championship.
The same can be said for Kyrie, he helped Cleveland win the title. He felt the need for a change, Cleveland could have made him come back if they wanted to, but instead they decided to trade him. In the end that was Cleveland's decision to trade him to the Celtics not Kyrie Irvings.
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If Paul Pierce can forgive him I can. The only reason they were mad was because the way/how he left.
Many people forget Ray was supposedly traded to Memphis and the deal fell apart.
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.
Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
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No.
The fans should thank him for the ring, without him, they don't win it.
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.
Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article. Yet you keep acting like it is a fact. It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much.
And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland. That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all.
Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade. Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic. It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.
Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article. Yet you keep acting like it is a fact. It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much.
And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland. That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all.
Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade. Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic. It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.
Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?
Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.
Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article. Yet you keep acting like it is a fact. It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much.
And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland. That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all.
Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade. Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic. It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.
Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?
Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.
Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article. Yet you keep acting like it is a fact. It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much.
And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland. That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all.
Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade. Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic. It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.
Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?
Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.
So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.
Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article. Yet you keep acting like it is a fact. It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much.
And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland. That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all.
Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade. Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic. It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.
Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?
Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.
So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?
none at all (at least from me). I totally get why those former teammates may make a stink.
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Yeah, I don't care about Ray Allen at all either. I liked that he helped us win a championship. I'm over him leaving, as I'm over Johnny Damon, Roger Clemens, Ellsbury, Wes Welker, etc. etc. etc.
People that focus on Ray leaving almost 10 years ago need to move on.
These guys are professional athletes, not fans of Boston sports teams. They are going to make the best decision for their families.
CLE fans should understand that Kyrie wanted to be the alpha male. That wasn't going to happen in CLE. Would you take Kyrie over Lebron? I wouldn't.
Personally, I've left a couple of companies, and haven't communicated much with previous coworkers. Not b/c of hatred, but b/c I moved on and didn't need to dwell on the past.
There should be no feelings hurt. It was a business decision. The smart fans will focus on the basketball and not the soap opera BS.
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The difference is Kyrie was traded and for a good haul. Ray left as a free agent for less money to a rival. They could have traded Kyrie to the Knicks but they traded him to a rival that wasn't even on his list of 4 teams.
another difference is that Kyrie was drafted by the Cavs and did his best to bring a winner to that city without asking for a trade. He only looked to move on after winning a title and having enough of Lebron running the show.
Ray played for 2 other franchises prior to being acquired by the C's --> much less expectation of attachment to Boston should be expected by the fanbase.
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No. I respect what he did. He was the clutch player of that group and at times he put the team on his back, yet LeBron gets all the love. I'm pumped about the trade after hearing that Kyrie is excited about being here. Sad to see IT go, but we improved long-term with this deal.
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Yeah, I don't care about Ray Allen at all either. I liked that he helped us win a championship. I'm over him leaving, as I'm over Johnny Damon, Roger Clemens, Ellsbury, Wes Welker, etc. etc. etc.
People that focus on Ray leaving almost 10 years ago need to move on.
These guys are professional athletes, not fans of Boston sports teams. They are going to make the best decision for their families.
CLE fans should understand that Kyrie wanted to be the alpha male. That wasn't going to happen in CLE. Would you take Kyrie over Lebron? I wouldn't.
Personally, I've left a couple of companies, and haven't communicated much with previous coworkers. Not b/c of hatred, but b/c I moved on and didn't need to dwell on the past.
There should be no feelings hurt. It was a business decision. The smart fans will focus on the basketball and not the soap opera BS.
Right, people should cut Kyrie some slack. He did what any true alpha would do in his situation. He attacked his teammate through social media rather than talking to him like a man, and then threatened to hold-out on his team forcing them to trade him so he didn't have to deal with the fall-out.
This kid is REALLY developing as a leader.
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Some of the comments make me wonder, would Celtics fans have been as cool if, in 1985, McHale forced a trade to escape Bird's shadow? Like, has this become a respected tactic?
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Some of the comments make me wonder, would Celtics fans have been as cool if, in 1985, McHale forced a trade to escape Bird's shadow? Like, has this become a respected tactic?
You seem to be missing the big difference.
Kyrie did not do that to the Celtics, he did it to our rivals, and ended up here.
You seem to act like if we would be upset a guy did something to the Celtics, we have to be upset no matter what team he is on.
That is not true.
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Some of the comments make me wonder, would Celtics fans have been as cool if, in 1985, McHale forced a trade to escape Bird's shadow? Like, has this become a respected tactic?
You seem to be missing the big difference.
Kyrie did not do that to the Celtics, he did it to our rivals, and ended up here.
You seem to act like if we would be upset a guy did something to the Celtics, we have to be upset no matter what team he is on.
That is not true.
Well, if it's a character flaw if he leaves us, then it's a character flaw if he comes to us.
Unless you're saying that many fans are giant hypocrites, and their anger / love for players has no legitimate basis. Under those circumstances, maybe you're right. It also puts NBA fanhood on roughly the same level as the WWE, where fans root for stars based exclusively on who Vince McMahon wants them to root for.
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Some of the comments make me wonder, would Celtics fans have been as cool if, in 1985, McHale forced a trade to escape Bird's shadow? Like, has this become a respected tactic?
You seem to be missing the big difference.
Kyrie did not do that to the Celtics, he did it to our rivals, and ended up here.
You seem to act like if we would be upset a guy did something to the Celtics, we have to be upset no matter what team he is on.
That is not true.
Well, if it's a character flaw if he leaves us, then it's a character flaw if he comes to us.
Unless you're saying that many fans are giant hypocrites, and their anger / love for players has no legitimate basis. Under those circumstances, maybe you're right. It also puts NBA fanhood on roughly the same level as the WWE, where fans root for stars based exclusively on who Vince McMahon wants them to root for.
Alright.
I hope you warmed up a lot before that gigantic stretch.
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Some of the comments make me wonder, would Celtics fans have been as cool if, in 1985, McHale forced a trade to escape Bird's shadow? Like, has this become a respected tactic?
You seem to be missing the big difference.
Kyrie did not do that to the Celtics, he did it to our rivals, and ended up here.
You seem to act like if we would be upset a guy did something to the Celtics, we have to be upset no matter what team he is on.
That is not true.
Well, if it's a character flaw if he leaves us, then it's a character flaw if he comes to us.
Unless you're saying that many fans are giant hypocrites, and their anger / love for players has no legitimate basis. Under those circumstances, maybe you're right. It also puts NBA fanhood on roughly the same level as the WWE, where fans root for stars based exclusively on who Vince McMahon wants them to root for.
Alright.
I hope you warmed up a lot before that gigantic stretch.
It's not a hypocritical and/or unprincipled reaction?
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Should Cs fans then regard him as Paul the apostle? Anyway - any all star that says, "F playing with Lebron, I don't wanna be this guys teammate" is good with me.
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Roy, you seem pretty upset by this Kyrie-IT trade, which surprised me. I thought you were a big fan of Kyrie a couple of years ago, and would have expected you to be excited that the Celtics acquired him. What changed? Is it Kyrie's decision to ask out and away from Lebron that bothers you, or Ainge's decision to trade IT?
It's a bit of a stretch to compare Kyrie asking for a trade away from Lebron at the age of 25 to McHale hypothetically asking for a trade away from Bird. This is a totally different era, it is extremely rare for any player to stay on one team their whole career. The league is designed to generate player movement. Also, Kyrie was the #1 pick and the main guy on his team before Lebron decided to return to Cleveland. There is no other player in NBA history that comes close to any comparable level of influence that Lebron has on the organization from the front office all the way down. None. That has to be quite oppressive to a young guy looking to make his legacy in the league.
Also, the Cavs tried to trade Kyrie without asking him, and reports of Lebron leaving have been rampant before Kyrie asked out. It comes back to this being a totally different era. If you want to try to make a comparison, then we have to pretend Bird was running the whole organization, giving jobs to his friends, and then had already decided to bolt to join the Pacers and the Celtics had already tried to trade McHale several times without talking to him about it before McHale finally decided to ask out.
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Roy, you seem pretty upset by this Kyrie-IT trade, which surprised me. I thought you were a big fan of Kyrie a couple of years ago, and would have expected you to be excited that the Celtics acquired him. What changed? Is it Kyrie's decision to ask out and away from Lebron that bothers you, or Ainge's decision to trade IT?
It's a bit of a stretch to compare Kyrie asking for a trade away from Lebron at the age of 25 to McHale hypothetically asking for a trade away from Bird. This is a totally different era, it is extremely rare for any player to stay on one team their whole career. The league is designed to generate player movement. Also, Kyrie was the #1 pick and the main guy on his team before Lebron decided to return to Cleveland. There is no other player in NBA history that comes close to any comparable level of influence that Lebron has on the organization from the front office all the way down. None. That has to be quite oppressive to a young guy looking to make his legacy in the league.
Also, the Cavs tried to trade Kyrie without asking him, and reports of Lebron leaving have been rampant before Kyrie asked out. It comes back to this being a totally different era. If you want to try to make a comparison, then we have to pretend Bird was running the whole organization, giving jobs to his friends, and then had already decided to bolt to join the Pacers and the Celtics had already tried to trade McHale several times without talking to him about it before McHale finally decided to ask out.
What changed? Lots of things:
1. Kyrie's game hasn't really improved in terms of defense, passing, moving without the ball, etc.;
2. Kyrie has shown himself to care more about his "brand" than winning;
3. Kyrie allegedly refused to talk with teammates in the playoffs, which goes beyond his beef with management;
4. We traded a guy who was better last year, a good starter, a prospect, and a lottery pick for him.
In general, I don't like guys who force trades. The reason I'm down on the trade is because I think it will make us worse.
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What changed? Lots of things:
1. Kyrie's game hasn't really improved in terms of defense, passing, moving without the ball, etc.;
2. Kyrie has shown himself to care more about his "brand" than winning;
3. Kyrie allegedly refused to talk with teammates in the playoffs, which goes beyond his beef with management;
4. We traded a guy who was better last year, a good starter, a prospect, and a lottery pick for him.
In general, I don't like guys who force trades. The reason I'm down on the trade is because I think it will make us worse.
Fair enough. Here are my thoughts on those points though:
1. Kyrie's game hasn't really improved in terms of defense, passing, moving without the ball, etc.;
-Kyrie reportedly agrees, and thats why he wants to play for Stevens, to improve his game and reach his potential.
2. Kyrie has shown himself to care more about his "brand" than winning;
-That is a matter of interpretation. What one person may call 'brand' another may call 'improving your game and reaching your potential. He already won a ring, most young players want to maximize their potential while they can.
3. Kyrie allegedly refused to talk with teammates in the playoffs, which goes beyond his beef with management;
-key word 'allegedly'
4. We traded a guy who was better last year, a good starter, a prospect, and a lottery pick for him.
-We traded a hobbled, 5'9 overachieving class act who likely will never reach that level of performance again and was due a max contract, plus a questionable prospect who looked awful in summer league, and a lottery pick for a premiere scorer in his prime. Time will tell if it made us better or not.
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I will put my money on this.
Irving knew Lebron was leaving, thus, he decided to shoot his way out of town. Cav's fans can't be happy with him or his team mate Lebron James.
The Celtics had their own big three leave one way or the other...as soon as KLove departs, Cavs fans can be mad while their waiting to get back to the playoffs.
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.
Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article. Yet you keep acting like it is a fact. It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much.
And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland. That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all.
Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade. Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic. It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.
Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?
Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.
So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?
A trade request is not the same as leaving via Free Agency. Kyrie did the right thing and told management he wanted out. I don't recall the RA situation perfectly but I don't think Ray told Ainge and Doc he wanted to leave in the summer prior to FA.
You know what would've been an **** move? Playing coy this season, play mind games with the media throughout his expiring year, and then leave Cleveland high and dry in the summer, saying he never wanted to play with Lebron and co.
Roy, you're acting as if Kyrie gave up on his team and pouted his way out of Cleveland. He didn't. He played the season, lost in the Finals, didn't cause locker room drama while he was in Cleveland, and then went to management to discuss his future. Cleveland didn't have to trade him. But because of the leak (again, this was huge in this whole narrative. I don't know who leaked it but I doubt it was Kyrie's camp), his value would take a hit if they let a year run from his current contract. So Cavs opted to move him because it was in their best interest. If Kyrie was traded to the Pelicans or something, would you still think he was a traitor?
On top of that, since he left Cleveland, Kyrie hasn't said a bad thing against the team, the franchise or the city. Compare that with how Ray left.
Unless of course, by definition, everyone who asks for a trade request is immediately a traitor in your eyes. Or anyone who leaves their team in general. Would you consider Gordon Hayward or Horford a traitor? How about Melo, in his current situation expressing his desire to management that he'd like to play for the Rockets? How about Pierce before the KG-RA trades went down? Didn't he supposedly tell Ainge to trade him if they couldn't build a winner?
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.
Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article. Yet you keep acting like it is a fact. It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much.
And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland. That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all.
Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade. Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic. It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.
Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?
Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.
So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?
A trade request is not the same as leaving via Free Agency. Kyrie did the right thing and told management he wanted out. I don't recall the RA situation perfectly but I don't think Ray told Ainge and Doc he wanted to leave in the summer prior to FA.
You know what would've been an **** move? Playing coy this season, play mind games with the media throughout his expiring year, and then leave Cleveland high and dry in the summer, saying he never wanted to play with Lebron and co.
Roy, you're acting as if Kyrie gave up on his team and pouted his way out of Cleveland. He didn't. He played the season, lost in the Finals, didn't cause locker room drama while he was in Cleveland, and then went to management to discuss his future. Cleveland didn't have to trade him. But because of the leak (again, this was huge in this whole narrative. I don't know who leaked it but I doubt it was Kyrie's camp), his value would take a hit if they let a year run from his current contract. So Cavs opted to move him because it was in their best interest. If Kyrie was traded to the Pelicans or something, would you still think he was a traitor?
On top of that, since he left Cleveland, Kyrie hasn't said a bad thing against the team, the franchise or the city. Compare that with how Ray left.
Unless of course, by definition, everyone who asks for a trade request is immediately a traitor in your eyes. Or anyone who leaves their team in general. Would you consider Gordon Hayward or Horford a traitor? How about Melo, in his current situation expressing his desire to management that he'd like to play for the Rockets? How about Pierce before the KG-RA trades went down? Didn't he supposedly tell Ainge to trade him if they couldn't build a winner?
People who honor their contracts aren't traitors. There's no shame in leaving in free agency.
Forcing your way out of town halfway through your contract despite being on a title contender, abandoning teammates and fans in the process, all because you want to work in your "brand", on the other hand...
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.
Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article. Yet you keep acting like it is a fact. It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much.
And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland. That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all.
Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade. Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic. It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.
Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?
Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.
So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?
A trade request is not the same as leaving via Free Agency. Kyrie did the right thing and told management he wanted out. I don't recall the RA situation perfectly but I don't think Ray told Ainge and Doc he wanted to leave in the summer prior to FA.
You know what would've been an **** move? Playing coy this season, play mind games with the media throughout his expiring year, and then leave Cleveland high and dry in the summer, saying he never wanted to play with Lebron and co.
Roy, you're acting as if Kyrie gave up on his team and pouted his way out of Cleveland. He didn't. He played the season, lost in the Finals, didn't cause locker room drama while he was in Cleveland, and then went to management to discuss his future. Cleveland didn't have to trade him. But because of the leak (again, this was huge in this whole narrative. I don't know who leaked it but I doubt it was Kyrie's camp), his value would take a hit if they let a year run from his current contract. So Cavs opted to move him because it was in their best interest. If Kyrie was traded to the Pelicans or something, would you still think he was a traitor?
On top of that, since he left Cleveland, Kyrie hasn't said a bad thing against the team, the franchise or the city. Compare that with how Ray left.
Unless of course, by definition, everyone who asks for a trade request is immediately a traitor in your eyes. Or anyone who leaves their team in general. Would you consider Gordon Hayward or Horford a traitor? How about Melo, in his current situation expressing his desire to management that he'd like to play for the Rockets? How about Pierce before the KG-RA trades went down? Didn't he supposedly tell Ainge to trade him if they couldn't build a winner?
People who honor their contracts aren't traitors. There's no shame in leaving in free agency.
Forcing your way out of town halfway through your contract despite being on a title contender, abandoning teammates and fans in the process, all because you want to work in your "brand", on the other hand...
It really is wild to see one of the most prominent, logical, and well respected posters, take on such an extremely negative tone.
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.
Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article. Yet you keep acting like it is a fact. It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much.
And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland. That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all.
Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade. Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic. It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.
Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?
Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.
So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?
A trade request is not the same as leaving via Free Agency. Kyrie did the right thing and told management he wanted out. I don't recall the RA situation perfectly but I don't think Ray told Ainge and Doc he wanted to leave in the summer prior to FA.
You know what would've been an **** move? Playing coy this season, play mind games with the media throughout his expiring year, and then leave Cleveland high and dry in the summer, saying he never wanted to play with Lebron and co.
Roy, you're acting as if Kyrie gave up on his team and pouted his way out of Cleveland. He didn't. He played the season, lost in the Finals, didn't cause locker room drama while he was in Cleveland, and then went to management to discuss his future. Cleveland didn't have to trade him. But because of the leak (again, this was huge in this whole narrative. I don't know who leaked it but I doubt it was Kyrie's camp), his value would take a hit if they let a year run from his current contract. So Cavs opted to move him because it was in their best interest. If Kyrie was traded to the Pelicans or something, would you still think he was a traitor?
On top of that, since he left Cleveland, Kyrie hasn't said a bad thing against the team, the franchise or the city. Compare that with how Ray left.
Unless of course, by definition, everyone who asks for a trade request is immediately a traitor in your eyes. Or anyone who leaves their team in general. Would you consider Gordon Hayward or Horford a traitor? How about Melo, in his current situation expressing his desire to management that he'd like to play for the Rockets? How about Pierce before the KG-RA trades went down? Didn't he supposedly tell Ainge to trade him if they couldn't build a winner?
People who honor their contracts aren't traitors. There's no shame in leaving in free agency.
Forcing your way out of town halfway through your contract despite being on a title contender, abandoning teammates and fans in the process, all because you want to work in your "brand", on the other hand...
It really is wild to see one of the most prominent, logical, and well respected posters, take on such an extremely negative tone.
Logic and negative aren't opposites, though.
No more personal remarks, please. Keep on topic.
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TP crimson. It's not really comparable, IMO.
Btw, Kyrie didn't force Cleveland to trade him. He wanted out and he approached management to request for a trade. That's a classy move, IMO. He didn't wait to hold some sort of circus on his contract year like Dwight or Lebron. He didn't leave the Cavs high and dry. On top of that, management was ready to trade him for PG (if I remember some of the rumors that came out after) even before news broke he requested a trade. All of this was happening behind closed doors.
The only reason this became huge was because somebody leaked Kyrie's trade request to the media. All of a sudden, a narrative forms that he's the bad guy.
Even prior to him going to the C's, I didn't think Kyrie was betraying Cleveland. The only real "betrayal" similar to Ray's in recent memory was KD to the Warriors.
It wasn't "classy". He refused to talk with teammates and indicated he wouldn't show up for training camp.
Root for the guy, but don't act like he cared about the Cavs or was somehow noble. Forcing a trade is pretty much the epitome of being a "traitor".
Supposedly and allegedly for like 2 days he didn't talk to teammates, which hasn't been confirmed by any one other than the initial article. Yet you keep acting like it is a fact. It may have happened, it may not have happened, but your firm stance that it did is a bit much.
And the ESPN report that was picked up everywhere said that Irving allegedly told the Cavs that he would rather not report to training camp then start the season with Cleveland. That isn't exactly I'm not going to show up at all and since training camp is still a ways away from starting, seems odd you again put so much validity on basically unconfirmed nonsense that isn't verifiable at all.
Of course that all fits with someone who hates Kyrie Irving and hates the trade. Focusing on small unverifiable points to fit your narrative is a pretty common tactic. It is also very transparent and hurts your credibility, but hey you can go down that road if you want to.
Lol. "Hurts my credibility"?
Kyrie didn't tell his teammates he was demanding a trade. He didn't talk to them after the trade demand. That's been verified, on the record, by teammates.
you mean in the middle of the summer when there are no team functions or activities and no reason for him to talk to anyone.
So there's no issue with Ray not talking to teammates when he left, obviously?
A trade request is not the same as leaving via Free Agency. Kyrie did the right thing and told management he wanted out. I don't recall the RA situation perfectly but I don't think Ray told Ainge and Doc he wanted to leave in the summer prior to FA.
You know what would've been an **** move? Playing coy this season, play mind games with the media throughout his expiring year, and then leave Cleveland high and dry in the summer, saying he never wanted to play with Lebron and co.
Roy, you're acting as if Kyrie gave up on his team and pouted his way out of Cleveland. He didn't. He played the season, lost in the Finals, didn't cause locker room drama while he was in Cleveland, and then went to management to discuss his future. Cleveland didn't have to trade him. But because of the leak (again, this was huge in this whole narrative. I don't know who leaked it but I doubt it was Kyrie's camp), his value would take a hit if they let a year run from his current contract. So Cavs opted to move him because it was in their best interest. If Kyrie was traded to the Pelicans or something, would you still think he was a traitor?
On top of that, since he left Cleveland, Kyrie hasn't said a bad thing against the team, the franchise or the city. Compare that with how Ray left.
Unless of course, by definition, everyone who asks for a trade request is immediately a traitor in your eyes. Or anyone who leaves their team in general. Would you consider Gordon Hayward or Horford a traitor? How about Melo, in his current situation expressing his desire to management that he'd like to play for the Rockets? How about Pierce before the KG-RA trades went down? Didn't he supposedly tell Ainge to trade him if they couldn't build a winner?
People who honor their contracts aren't traitors. There's no shame in leaving in free agency.
Forcing your way out of town halfway through your contract despite being on a title contender, abandoning teammates and fans in the process, all because you want to work in your "brand", on the other hand...
So what Ray Allen did was way better than Kyrie? What Lebron did with his Decision or Dwight with his whole "will he, won't he" drama in Orlando was so much better than what Kyrie did? As far as I can tell, Kyrie letting management know his preferences was him being upfront and honest with his employers. I'm 100% sure the Cavs preferred this route because it allowed them to plan for the future, rather than if Kyrie played it coy and just left them for nothing in FA.
It was the leak that made the situation far worse than it probably was. Can you not acknowledge this?
Also, forcing his way out of town? As far as I can tell, Kyrie's trade request was a private conversation with management.
Abandoning his teammates? Work on his brand? You're reaching Roy. And I find Kyrie's approach of "I want to prove myself and I'll beat the best to do it" way more refreshing than KD or Lebron's approach of "I want the easiest path to a ring".
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There was a report that came out that Indy almost did a PG for Kyrie swap. If this happened, and assuming news didn't leak of Kyrie's trade request, would you be calling Kyrie a traitor?
In the same hypothetical, if it was uncovered a couple of weeks after that Kyrie was fine with the trade because he had asked management for a trade anyway, would you be calling him a traitor?
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There was a report that came out that Indy almost did a PG for Kyrie swap. If this happened, and assuming news didn't leak of Kyrie's trade request, would you be calling Kyrie a traitor?
In the same hypothetical, if it was uncovered a couple of weeks after that Kyrie was fine with the trade because he had asked management for a trade anyway, would you be calling him a traitor?
Indy may have asked for Kyrie, but I doubt very much that Cleveland was shopping him.
But regardless, refusing to honor your contract, refusing to speak with the team, refusing to talk with teammates are all things that make a player a traitor. Whether you want a traitor on your team is a personal decision, but it's 100x worse than honoring your contract and leaving in free agency.
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There was a report that came out that Indy almost did a PG for Kyrie swap. If this happened, and assuming news didn't leak of Kyrie's trade request, would you be calling Kyrie a traitor?
In the same hypothetical, if it was uncovered a couple of weeks after that Kyrie was fine with the trade because he had asked management for a trade anyway, would you be calling him a traitor?
Indy may have asked for Kyrie, but I doubt very much that Cleveland was shopping him.
But regardless, refusing to honor your contract, refusing to speak with the team, refusing to talk with teammates are all things that make a player a traitor. Whether you want a traitor on your team is a personal decision, but it's 100x worse than honoring your contract and leaving in free agency.
You keep harping about "leaving" and "honoring contracts", but that's THE LEAST of what made Ray Allen a traitor to the Celtics fanbase and teammates.
That he went specifically to MIAMI to play with WADE and LEBRON our current closest rivals is what made Ray Allen a real Judas. That he took less money in free-agency than we offered, etc., etc. only exacerbates the issue, but it's not THE REASON why Ray Allen is a traitor.
What made him a traitor was the simple fact that he left FOR MIAMI, not that he left at all.
Let me put it this way, at least on my personal view, if after Danny Ainge was in advanced talks to trade Ray Allen to the point that an agreement was made and it fell through, and Ray Allen later asks to be traded I wouldn't hold it against him at all. That he left the Celtics in free-agency because he didn't want to be here anymore I have no problem with that at all. The ISSUE is where he left to, and glossing over it misses the argument entirely as it regards Ray Allen and what he did... and nothing he's said and done since then has helped, just the opposite. It's cemented my view on what did.
That said, I don't get why people are defending Kyrie around here. He's a traitor to the Cavs through and through. Sorry people, but you have to call it as it is.
That we benefited from that betrayal? Cool, all's good for US, but doesn't wash away what he did to the Cavs.
Now, I don't know the circumstances with him and his teammates and him with management. Did their relationship sour enough to the point that it'll make it difficult to continue playing together? Is requesting a trade the same as forcing a trade? But whatever.
I'll also say this. "Requesting a trade" does not equal "not honoring a contract". Did Kyrie threaten to not play with the Cavs if he wasn't traded? Did he force a buyout? I mean, all the power is in management's and ownership's hands, that's how NBA contracts work. Kyrie requested something that is within management's power to deny or grant. One can view the request as a form of a traitor's action, but that has NOTHING to do with honoring a contract or not. Sorry, you're off on that part.
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That said, I don't get why people are defending Kyrie around here. He's a traitor to the Cavs through and through. Sorry people, but you have to call it as it is.
That we benefited from that betrayal? Cool, all's good for US, but doesn't wash away what he did to the Cavs.
Can't deny he betrayed the Cavs. But he was just jumping ship a year earlier than LeBron will jump ship (for the second time), he asked off of the ship. He didn't choose the Celtics. The Celtics aren't even that much of a rival, given how the Cavs smoke us in the playoffs.
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There was a report that came out that Indy almost did a PG for Kyrie swap. If this happened, and assuming news didn't leak of Kyrie's trade request, would you be calling Kyrie a traitor?
In the same hypothetical, if it was uncovered a couple of weeks after that Kyrie was fine with the trade because he had asked management for a trade anyway, would you be calling him a traitor?
Indy may have asked for Kyrie, but I doubt very much that Cleveland was shopping him.
But regardless, refusing to honor your contract, refusing to speak with the team, refusing to talk with teammates are all things that make a player a traitor. Whether you want a traitor on your team is a personal decision, but it's 100x worse than honoring your contract and leaving in free agency.
You keep harping about "leaving" and "honoring contracts", but that's THE LEAST of what made Ray Allen a traitor to the Celtics fanbase and teammates.
That he went specifically to MIAMI to play with WADE and LEBRON our current closest rivals is what made Ray Allen a real Judas. That he took less money in free-agency than we offered, etc., etc. only exacerbates the issue, but it's not THE REASON why Ray Allen is a traitor.
What made him a traitor was the simple fact that he left FOR MIAMI, not that he left at all.
Let me put it this way, at least on my personal view, if after Danny Ainge was in advanced talks to trade Ray Allen to the point that an agreement was made and it fell through, and Ray Allen later asks to be traded I wouldn't hold it against him at all. That he left the Celtics in free-agency because he didn't want to be here anymore I have no problem with that at all. The ISSUE is where he left to, and glossing over it misses the argument entirely as it regards Ray Allen and what he did... and nothing he's said and done since then has helped, just the opposite. It's cemented my view on what did.
That said, I don't get why people are defending Kyrie around here. He's a traitor to the Cavs through and through. Sorry people, but you have to call it as it is.
That we benefited from that betrayal? Cool, all's good for US, but doesn't wash away what he did to the Cavs.
Now, I don't know the circumstances with him and his teammates and him with management. Did their relationship sour enough to the point that it'll make it difficult to continue playing together? Is requesting a trade the same as forcing a trade? But whatever.
I'll also say this. "Requesting a trade" does not equal "not honoring a contract". Did Kyrie threaten to not play with the Cavs if he wasn't traded? Did he force a buyout? I mean, all the power is in management's and ownership's hands, that's how NBA contracts work. Kyrie requested something that is within management's power to deny or grant. One can view the request as a form of a traitor's action, but that has NOTHING to do with honoring a contract or not. Sorry, you're off on that part.
The bolded part for me is what actually makes it NOT a betrayal.
The way I see it, Kyrie was on his way out of Cleveland. And he could've done it a number of ways:
One possible way is by refusing to play until he got a buyout to go to the team of his choosing. This (for me) is what qualifies as not honoring a contract.
The second way is to keep his mouth shut and then leave via free agency without giving anyone a heads up and later on revealing that he never wanted to be in Cleveland for quite some time now. This cripples a franchise, especially if Lebron leaves. Plus, honestly, it makes him look more like a villain.
Thirdly, is to request for a trade in a private meeting and fully disclose his future intents and his desires. To bring it down to earth a little more and get away from this crazy Game of Zones, I think it's similar when your boss asks you "so where do you see yourself 5 years from now?" If Kyrie worked in the finance department and said "Yknow, I'd really like to try marketing. I want to be a brand manager in the future", I don't see it as a "betrayal". He was upfront about his desires.
Leaving a team isn't a betrayal. Wanting to play elsewhere isn't a betrayal. IMO, how you do it and the circumstances surrounding it dictates whether it was a betrayal or not. I view what KD or Ray Allen did as betrayals. Kyrie's is a completely different case IMO.
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There was a report that came out that Indy almost did a PG for Kyrie swap. If this happened, and assuming news didn't leak of Kyrie's trade request, would you be calling Kyrie a traitor?
In the same hypothetical, if it was uncovered a couple of weeks after that Kyrie was fine with the trade because he had asked management for a trade anyway, would you be calling him a traitor?
Indy may have asked for Kyrie, but I doubt very much that Cleveland was shopping him.
But regardless, refusing to honor your contract, refusing to speak with the team, refusing to talk with teammates are all things that make a player a traitor. Whether you want a traitor on your team is a personal decision, but it's 100x worse than honoring your contract and leaving in free agency.
And yet wasn't it Indy who pulled out of the trade? I'll find the link when I have the time but the timing of the negotiations suggest that Kyrie made his trade request earlier. Like, weeks before it leaked to the media. Which is why Cleveland was including him in trade packages.
And for all this talk about refusing to talk to team and teammates, what about Porzingis? Is he a traitor? Dude skipped his exit interview! He refused to talk to the team. He later apologized for that (many weeks later) but if he got traded somehow during that period (there were a bunch of rumors), should he be considered a traitor to the Knicks franchise?