CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Who on August 23, 2017, 09:41:45 PM
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Kyrie Irving isn't good enough to:
(1) be worth what Ainge gave up for him
(2) to lead a team to a Championship
I like that Ainge combined his assets and went after a top star. But I hate that Ainge chose Kyrie Irving to be that player. Irving simply isn't talented enough to warrant such acclaim.
Kyrie is a terrific scorer but he is a bad defensive player, a bad rebounder, a bad passer and poor floor general.
His lack of all-round game makes it impossible for him to positively effect the outcome of a game when he isn't scoring. Which is a big reason why his teams struggled pre-LeBron and continued to struggle while LeBron was resting on the bench over the last couple of years.
Kyrie frequently misses basic passing opportunities. He frequently gets tunnel vision and can think of nothing else but putting up a shot. Frequently over-dribbles and stagnates the offense. All of which makes him difficult to play with. The opposite of someone who makes his teammates better.
Of further concern is the lack of development Kyrie has made over the last few seasons especially while playing on a top team in Cleveland next to LeBron James. He has not matured as a basketball player. He still does not put regular effort in on defense. He still does not make consistently sound decisions on offense. He still lacks the inability to lead his team whenever LeBron isn't around to hold his hand.
Kyrie Irving simply isn't good enough.
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Think of all the great Celtics that have won Championships here.
The 2008 team -- KG was an elite defender, strong rebounder, elite passer, very good scorer. Pierce was an elite scorer, good defender, good rebounder, very good passer.
The 80s teams -- Bird was an elite scorer, rebounder, passer and a good defender in his earlier years. McHale was an elite scorer and defender. Parish was a plus scorer, defender & rebounder.
The 70s teams -- Cowens was an elite defensive player, elite rebounder, very good passer and a good scorer. Havlicek was an elite scorer, elite defender, very good passer and rebounder. Jo Jo White was a very good scorer and defender.
The 60s teams -- Russell was an elite defender, elite rebounder, elite passer, good scorer. Havlicek noted above. Sam Jones was a very good scorer and defender. Cousy was an elite passer, good scorer and capable defender.
All of those teams were led by multi-dimensional stars ... players who could effect and even dominate games in multiple ways. Not one-dimensional scorers.
Kyrie doesn't have the talent to lead a team the way those guys did or so many other Champions have over the History of this league. He simply isn't well-rounded enough. He has never displayed the maturity necessary to lead a top team. To put in the effort required to improve his defense or rebounding. Never understood the value in passing, in creating for others instead of just himself. He is too single-minded. Too obsessed with himself. With how much he scores. Not his team. Only himself!
Kyrie Irving isn't good enough for Ainge to go all-out like this. To give up such a huge trade for or to build a team around. Kyrie doesn't have the talent for that.
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He's still young and there's still time for him to improve.
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Blah blah blah
Let Stevens play with his new toys for a while, then we'll talk.
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Irving is great. I remember what people thought about IT before Brad Stevens. Irving is Edited. Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.'n awesome.
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I agree, which is why this is a very bad, no good, terrible trade.
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I understand the notion, Who, but I'm very optimistic because of Brad Stevens.
Let's remember, Isaiah Thomas when he came to Boston is a capable 20 point scorer, but was coming off the bench in Phoenix. He came off the bench for us at the start and his first full year in Boston, he wasn't as spectacular.
Brad and his crew found a way to fully utilize him and he became that offensive player that he was last year.
I have no reason to doubt that Brad can do to Kyrie what he was able to do with Isaiah.
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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10 player with the right coach
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I can't stand all the negativity in this town. It sucks! Kevin Durant isn't walking through that door. LeBron James isn't walking through that door....
Let's give the kid a chance. With a decent coach and getting that bully off his shoulders I think with this coach and this team he is going to be real special.
Yes I will miss IT and his passion and fight. Crowder was good for his contract but I think he was overrated in his defense. I am not happy with giving up the BKN pick but what is done is done. We have to move on and live for "NOW".
Go Celts!!
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I understand the notion, Who, but I'm very optimistic because of Brad Stevens.
Let's remember, Isaiah Thomas when he came to Boston is a capable 20 point scorer, but was coming off the bench in Phoenix. He came off the bench for us at the start and his first full year in Boston, he wasn't as spectacular.
Brad and his crew found a way to fully utilize him and he became that offensive player that he was last year.
I have no reason to doubt that Brad can do to Kyrie what he was able to do with Isaiah.
What, make him score more? Scoring isn't his problem. Did Stevens make Isaiah a better passer, rebounder, or defender? I don't think he did.
I pretty much agree with Who. I never really liked Irving and always thought he was an overrated one dimensional ballhog. I always try to come around to anyone on the Celtics, but as Who said, that was a nice trade...if it was for someone better.
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for.
Instead, we get Kyrie, who:
* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);
* Is injury prone;
* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;
* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.
I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.
We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter). It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden... I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.
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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10 player with the right coach
So was IT.
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Watch a game sometime
Yes... Watch game 5, 3rd quarter where Kyrie rips the Celtics heart scoring 21...while Lebron picks his nose
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Watch a game sometime
Yes... Watch game 5, 3rd quarter where Kyrie rips the Celtics heart scoring 21...while Lebron picks his nose
Is this the game you mean?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OBceVp61jzA
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Watch a game sometime
Yes... Watch game 5, 3rd quarter where Kyrie rips the Celtics heart scoring 21...while Lebron picks his nose
Is this the game you mean?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OBceVp61jzA
No
This one. Correction Game 4
https://youtu.be/-e8E9CFOqrY
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:o
Deal with it. We still have a lotto pick.
Danny made a calculated gamble.
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Watch a game sometime
Yes... Watch game 5, 3rd quarter where Kyrie rips the Celtics heart scoring 21...while Lebron picks his nose
Learn how to watch a game better. Learn to see things that an 8 year old can't see.
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for.
Instead, we get Kyrie, who:
* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);
* Is injury prone;
* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;
* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.
I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.
We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter). It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden... I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.
Well said. I think Ainge's admiration for undersized (maybe 185 lbs), one-way guards got the best of him here. I had hoped he would get that out of his system with mid-first round draft picks.
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5'7", can't overlook that. Big difference.
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There will be a big difference between being coached by Tyronn Lue and being coached by Brad Stevens.
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5'7", can't overlook that. Big difference.
If you're going to troll, at least be good at it.
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Huh? :o
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Irving kicked our ass in the playoffs last year.
62% from the field, 50% on threes, 90% from the line.
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Across 6 seasons in the NBA (across ages 19 - 24) Kyrie has:
* Averaged < 20 PPG only twice
* Averaged < 5 APG only once
* Averaged > 3 TO only twice
* Shot <45% FG only twice
* Shot <39% 3PT only twice
* Shot < 86% FT only once
He is not the most efficient scorer on earth (0.28 PTS / FGA last year), but I'll take those numbers from my 25 year old PG any day.
Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet. And I do think that is relevant because he has spent most of his career playing for crappy Cleveland teams, and has spent his ENTIRE career playing for crappy coaches - he hasn't really had good tutelage. And when it comes to defensive effort, Lebron and K-Love don't exactly set amazing examples.
Not saying I expect him to become a great defender, he's got good size and strength for a PG, so he might be able to develop into at least an average or near-average one. Probably won't, but it's possible.
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Kyrie Irving is so much better in the playoffs then IT and it's not even close.
We all saw how IT did against the Cavs last year, you guys want to repeat that?
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Across 6 seasons in the NBA (across ages 19 - 24) Kyrie has:
* Averaged < 20 PPG only twice
* Averaged < 5 APG only once
* Averaged > 3 TO only twice
* Shot <45% FG only twice
* Shot <39% 3PT only twice
* Shot < 86% FT only once
He is not the most efficient scorer on earth (0.28 PTS / FGA last year), but I'll take those numbers from my 25 year old PG any day.
Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet. And I do think that is relevant because he has spent most of his career playing for crappy Cleveland teams, and has spent his ENTIRE career playing for crappy coaches - he hasn't really had good tutelage. And when it comes to defensive effort, Lebron and K-Love don't exactly set amazing examples.
Not saying I expect him to become a great defender, he's got good size and strength for a PG, so he might be able to develop into at least an average or near-average one. Probably won't, but it's possible.
Hes not the most efficient scorer on earth but his shooting splits are basically identical to Thomas.
IT just got to the line more. Kyrie has better fg% and 3p% and the playoff disparity is huge.
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Watch a game sometime
Yes... Watch game 5, 3rd quarter where Kyrie rips the Celtics heart scoring 21...while Lebron picks his nose
Learn how to watch a game better. Learn to see things that an 8 year old can't see.
wait... did you not see Kyrie rip our hearts out?
He was absolutely unstoppable.
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Kyrie Irving is so much better in the playoffs then IT and it's not even close.
We all saw how IT did against the Cavs last year, you guys want to repeat that?
A hobbling IT? Come on man
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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...
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Across 6 seasons in the NBA (across ages 19 - 24) Kyrie has:
* Averaged < 20 PPG only twice
* Averaged < 5 APG only once
* Averaged > 3 TO only twice
* Shot <45% FG only twice
* Shot <39% 3PT only twice
* Shot < 86% FT only once
He is not the most efficient scorer on earth (0.28 PTS / FGA last year), but I'll take those numbers from my 25 year old PG any day.
Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet. And I do think that is relevant because he has spent most of his career playing for crappy Cleveland teams, and has spent his ENTIRE career playing for crappy coaches - he hasn't really had good tutelage. And when it comes to defensive effort, Lebron and K-Love don't exactly set amazing examples.
Not saying I expect him to become a great defender, he's got good size and strength for a PG, so he might be able to develop into at least an average or near-average one. Probably won't, but it's possible.
Hes not the most efficient scorer on earth but his shooting splits are basically identical to Thomas.
IT just got to the line more. Kyrie has better fg% and 3p% and the playoff disparity is huge.
No question about the playoff disparity.
The problem with Thomas is that while he IS an incredibly gifted scorer, he really needs to be in a very special situation in order to thrive. He's a solid shooter but not an elite one, and due to his obvious lack of size he can't just shoot over guys - he needs space. So he is at his best when he has two or three dangerous shooters on the perimeter forcing the defence to space the floor so that he can then find paths to the basket. Once he has a line to the basket he can get a defender on their heels, and from there he can pull a variety of moves to get his man off balance, allowing him to create enough space to get his shot off.
If you watch the playoffs from the last two seasons, you'll start to see a consistent pattern there. When Boston didn't have shooters making shots, Thomas struggled. It happened in 15/16 against Atlanta, when Bradley was out with an injury and Crowder was playing hurt and couldn't make shots - the lack of threat from outside allowed the Hawks to double and triple Thomas all night - he couldn't get anything going, and the outside shooters kept bricking open threes, so the Hawks had no reason to change tactics.
Similar thing happened this year. On days when Bradley and Crowder shot well, Thomas was killing it and the Celtics were deadly. In games where Bradley and Crowder struggled to make their jumpers, Thomas faced more defensive attention, he struggled to get going, and the team was generally getting blown out.
This is where something intangible, like size, can be a game changer. Most guards in the NBA are 6'1 - 6'2, so when you are nearly 6'4" like Kyrie you can just shoot over those guys. Even he's playing bigger guards who are around his height (like Curry / Wall), his height means he doesn't need to in the air as much to get his shot off, and so he can get his shot of quicker - this means he doesn't need quite as much space from his defender as somebody like Thomas does. Combine that with the fact that he is just generally a superior shooter (near 40% for his career from three) and you have a constant threat on the perimeter - so if he catches the ball without a body on him, the defence has no choice but to close out hard. When they do he can use his elite ball handling (he is one of the best ball handlers in the NBA, period) to get straight past them for an open look.
So Kyrie's ability to go one-on-one like that means that he doesn't really depend quite so much on who you put around him. He's going to be effective, and he's going to get his points, no matter what. He is a pretty elite isolation scorer, and while team offense wins games in the regular season, the truth (that people hate to admit) come playoff time it's usually the elite isolation scorers (Kyrie, Durant, MJ, Pierce, Kobe, etc) who are winning you games with last second heroics. When you don't have anything going for you, the planned play breaks down, the clock is winding down, and you just desperately need SOMETHING - that's when those elite ISO guys are going to step up and win the game.
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Watch a game sometime
Yes... Watch game 5, 3rd quarter where Kyrie rips the Celtics heart scoring 21...while Lebron picks his nose
TP He robbed us of any hope of winning the series. Can't believe we are going from hating this guy to loving him.
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Kyrie has never had good coaching in the NBA and for the past few years he has played in an ISO offense which I don't think brings out the best from point guards. I think, maybe hope, that playing for Stevens in the Celtics offense will make him a better player. IT was a sixth man nobody wanted who turned into a star under Stevens. Look at how E Turner played for Stevens as well as Jordan Crawford. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think Irving could be close to a top 5 player under Stevens.
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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...
Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...
Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Almost all the top guys (that are over 25) grew as players after they turned 25. Only exception I can think of is Durant. Even LeBron improved aspects of his game post 25.
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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...
Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Thomas was already able to put 20ppg on the board as early as 24. He had an above-average season last year, but good luck if you think that he'll score 30ppg season in and season out for the rest of his career.
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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10 player with the right coach
So was IT.
Maybe. I don't think so but probably i'm wrong. Anyway i think it's a big error to read the trade that way. IT wanted the maximum... and he is 29 (i don think he deserve the maximum too). You take a 25 year old player with very good contract who expressed the willing to resign here after the 2 years. He wiil ask for the maximum when he will be 27. Celtocs now have a very good window with young players... and it will be wide open when cavs will be gone (as soon as next year)
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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...
Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Almost all the top guys (that are over 25) grew as players after they turned 25. Only exception I can think of is Durant. Even LeBron improved aspects of his game post 25.
Sure, but this doesn't mean you should expect some sort of radical improvement after the age of 25. Guys will likely become incrementally better. But poor defenders will probably be poor defenders, and mediocre shooters will probably remain mediocre.
The idea that Irving will manufacture some sort of defensive prowess out of thin air is probably as optimistic as the notion that Marcus Smart will all of a sudden become .400 three point shooter. It's not likely to happen.
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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10 player with the right coach
So was IT.
Maybe. I don't think so but probably i'm wrong. Anyway i think it's a big error to read the trade that way. IT wanted the maximum... and he is 29 (i don think he deserve the maximum too). You take a 25 year old player with very good contract who expressed the willing to resign here after the 2 years. He wiil ask for the maximum when he will be 27. Celtocs now have a very good window with young players... and it will be wide open when cavs will be gone (as soon as next year)
It's a miracle a 25 year old like this was even available. Teams don't get rid of talents this young. I still can't believe the C's were given this option.
The GM set it up perfectly by stockpiling big time assets.
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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...
Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Almost all the top guys (that are over 25) grew as players after they turned 25. Only exception I can think of is Durant. Even LeBron improved aspects of his game post 25.
Sure, but this doesn't mean you should expect some sort of radical improvement after the age of 25. Guys will likely become incrementally better. But poor defenders will probably be poor defenders, and mediocre shooters will probably remain mediocre.
The idea that Irving will manufacture some sort of defensive prowess out of thin air is probably as optimistic as the notion that Marcus Smart will all of a sudden become .400 three point shooter. It's not likely to happen.
I don't disagree with that. I'm not expecting some Curry like jump.
But if Kyrie can just play solid defence consistently (as he did in the 2016 finals) then it'll be fantastic, just like if Smart can turn into a .350 three point shooter ;)
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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10 player with the right coach
So was IT.
Maybe. I don't think so but probably i'm wrong. Anyway i think it's a big error to read the trade that way. IT wanted the maximum... and he is 29 (i don think he deserve the maximum too). You take a 25 year old player with very good contract who expressed the willing to resign here after the 2 years. He wiil ask for the maximum when he will be 27. Celtocs now have a very good window with young players... and it will be wide open when cavs will be gone (as soon as next year)
It's a miracle a 25 year old like this was even available. Teams don't get rid of talents this young. I still can't believe the C's were given this option.
The GM set it up perfectly by stockpiling big time assets.
A miracle? Let's not go overboard.
Chris Paul, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, Demarcus Cousins, James Harden were 23-27 when traded, just to name a few.
This is being spun into the coup of the century by some on here. Danny got a good player. Danny gave up a lot for said player. If Isaiah is fully healthy (and has another MVP-caliber campaign) and the Nets are the worst team in the league again, this was a terrible deal. If Isaiah's hip is never the same and the pick lands around #10, it was a good deal.
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This is being spun into the coup of the century by some on here. Danny got a good player. Danny gave up a lot for said player. If Isaiah is fully healthy (and has another MVP-caliber campaign) and the Nets are the worst team in the league again, this was a terrible deal. If Isaiah's hip is never the same and the pick lands around #10, it was a good deal.
Even if Isaiah reverts to being as good as he was two seasons ago, and the Nets pick ends up being #5-6, this deal is still probably slanted heavily in our favor.
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for.
Instead, we get Kyrie, who:
* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);
* Is injury prone;
* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;
* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.
I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.
We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter). It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden... I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.
I share ur concern. I to, did not agree with the price we gave up to get Kyrie Irvin. We lost out on a Brooklyn pick who would of sealed a chance at another Tatum type prospect. We lost our defensive big bodied rebounder Crowder and a young promising 7 footer Zizic who i was high on. All these are valid arguments.
But the more i look at it from 3000 feet up, the more it makes sense. 29 year old IT wanted a max deal, when he had already played his best year and that hip is gonna slow him down to where all hes going to do is pass and facilitate the ball this year to Gordon and Brown. IT will not be the scorer he was last year because of the talent around him will be more of the focal point of the offense rather then him. So basically IT will be expecting a brinks truck full of millions for what he did last year and have the excuse of his hip injury to lean on for why he doesnt replicate last years success.
Kyrie will be set into Brads system, he will not be given the keys to the offense like most think he will especially when Brads guy Gordon Hayward will be the central focus on offense. We will see alot of Kyrie bringing the ball up n looking for an open Gordon or Brown to drive the basket with Al Horford being the clean up guy. Kyrie will be a big part of the offense but he will be working with ina system that actually includes drawn up plays by Brad Stevens, he wont be given the ball n told to save the day by creating his own shot.
Another thing to consider is that LA will not be good at all this year. When Ball and Lopez is their two best players and their big #2 pick Ingram hasnt had a meaningful nba basket yet, dont expect them to be a dead last lottery threat but they will have a good chance to fall within the 2-5 range. So Luka Doncic, DeAndre Ayton, Miles Bridges or Mohammad Bamba is still a strong possibility.
What u have to look at in the end is this
We traded
Pierce, Garnet and Terry (all past their prime)
And got in return
Marcus Smart
Jaylen Brown
Jayson Tatum
Kyrie Irvin (2 years)
And still another 2-5 pick
Thats 5 really good assets for 3 aging over the hill players. Im not complaining...
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I'm a bit tired of the narrative that Kyrie wasn't successful as the man on his team prior to Lebron. How successful was Michael Jordan as the man on his team early in his career? Anthony Davis? Towns who has more help than Kyrie ever had pre Lebron? No players in their first few years lead their teams to the playoffs alone. None.
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I'm a bit tired of the narrative that Kyrie wasn't successful as the man on his team prior to Lebron. How successful was Michael Jordan as the man on his team early in his career? Anthony Davis? Towns who has more help than Kyrie ever had pre Lebron? No players in their first few years lead their teams to the playoffs alone. None.
I agree, but with this trade Kyrie is pressured to put up numbers akin to Harden this season to even justify the package. Hope he does.
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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...
Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Thomas was already able to put 20ppg on the board as early as 24. He had an above-average season last year, but good luck if you think that he'll score 30ppg season in and season out for the rest of his career.
That's not what I think, but good luck if you think putting up empty stats as the 2nd best player for the worst franchise in sports is the same thing as being the 2nd best player on a championship team.
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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...
Finished products at 25? Then I guess it's not a big deal we traded 3rd string PG Isaiah Thomas then, right?
Almost all the top guys (that are over 25) grew as players after they turned 25. Only exception I can think of is Durant. Even LeBron improved aspects of his game post 25.
Even Durant did. His D has been leaps and bounds better for at least the last 2 years- he made himself a legit 2-way terror a la Lebron in his early Heat years.
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Re: Kyrie Irving isn't good enough ...
Neither was IT.... if we are honest about things.
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My initial feeling on this trade was that Cleveland got the better of it. I especially hated losing the Nets 2018 pick and I had really wanted to see what Zizic could do in the NBA in green. So much of the value of this deal though will only be known after we see what the Celtics (and Cavs) do in the next few seasons.
To compete with GSW now or in the next few years, DA has probably pulled the right reign. If you wanted to be in the ECF and lose to GSW and hope to win a title in 2020 you don't make this trade and hope you find a point guard to replace IT in the draft or in free agency.
Irving becomes available and you have to choose (because KI is an upgrade and a special talent, as much as I love IT) are Brown and Tatum ready to step up? Can Smart be the ying to Kyrie's yang and all the other answers to the question 'can we be a real contender'?
I mention Smart because, with AB gone, he is the player who I think DA and BS had in mind to make Kyrie work with the current roster.
DA has given the Celtics the best roster he could to compete with the GSW now and over the next few seasons. He has maintained a roster that can improve and he still has some assets (though I still hate hate losing the Nets 2018 pick, go the NETS!)
Managing an NBA franchise is a very tricky business. DA has gone for the lets compete now option over the lets keep building and wait for GSW to run out of steam option. He has faith in his coach, which I think is justified, Brad Stevens could lead this team to a championship sooner than later. And he has gone down the Celtics path, the Celtics have the best record in the NBA for a reason.
I am going to watch my box set of the history of the Celtics, in the hope that I will have to update it next year to include another championship. Lets go Celtics!
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This is being spun into the coup of the century by some on here. Danny got a good player. Danny gave up a lot for said player. If Isaiah is fully healthy (and has another MVP-caliber campaign) and the Nets are the worst team in the league again, this was a terrible deal. If Isaiah's hip is never the same and the pick lands around #10, it was a good deal.
Even if Isaiah reverts to being as good as he was two seasons ago, and the Nets pick ends up being #5-6, this deal is still probably slanted heavily in our favor.
I'm inclined to agree with this, though I'd feel better if it was more like #7-8, but I'm nitpicking.
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I'm sure a lot will scoff at this, and maybe rightly so since All Star games are meaningless, but I have always thought it was a very impressive sign that Irving won the All Star game MVP at the age of 21. As meaningless as those contests are, Irving showed up to a game with only the best talent in the league at a very young age and outplayed them all. It's no guarantee of success but I do think it speaks to his potential.
I'm optimistic Stevens can unleash that potential.
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for.
Instead, we get Kyrie, who:
* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);
* Is injury prone;
* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;
* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.
I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.
We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter). It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden... I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.
to be fair Danny didn't think he could acquire those other guys and still have the room to land Hayward. I think Danny was probably wrong about George, but he certainly wasn't wrong about the other players.
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Is Irving good enough? I'm not even sure this is the right question.
Irving is not going to be playing in the Finals by himself. This is not Cleveland pre-Lebron. He's on a team with one of the best wings in the league (Hayward), one of the best do-it-all big men in the league (Horford), one of the best coaches in the league (Stevens), a good bench and a boatload of young talent.
Of course he's good enough to win a title here. He doesn't have to be Russell, Bird, or Havlichek to be good enough.
Another thing to keep in mind... He can be an adequate defender, which would be a big leap from what IT was giving us (and yes, I was a huge IT guy). If you're a C's fan and you're being honest with yourself, you'll admit that there were plenty of games when the team was getting killed defensively with IT on the floor, and they needed IT's 4th quarter heroics just to repair the damage. Irving isn't exactly Joe Dumars on defense, but I expect the Celtics to take a major step forward defensively this season, even without Bradley and Crowder.
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Good thread.
This does remind me that Ainge loved loved Monta Ellis too. :(
Hopefully Kyrie grows as a facilitator like Thomas did when he got here otherwise we need Tatum/Brown/Lakers Pick to turn into a star pronto.
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2012 Rookie of the Year
2013 NBA All-Star
2013 Three-Point Shootout Champion
2014 NBA All-Star
2014 NBA All-Star Game MVP
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medal
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup MVP
2015 NBA All-Star
2016 NBA Champion
2016 Summer Olympics Gold Medal
2017 NBA All-Star
The ONLY reason Kyrie hasn't made All-NBA recently, or viewed as a better player is because he shares the ball with Lebron James and Kevin Love who both get 20+ppg a night.
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Up until now he hasn't been good enough, great enough. But I have a feeling management is going to task him with making a leap to Hardenville but with better defense.
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Good thread.
This does remind me that Ainge loved loved Monta Ellis too. :(
Hopefully Kyrie grows as a facilitator like Thomas did when he got here otherwise we need Tatum/Brown/Lakers Pick to turn into a star pronto.
Kyrie's AST% was in the 30's before James got to Cleveland. In fact, Irving's career best is better than Thomas' career best and Irving's 2nd best is tied with Thomas' career best. I don't really get this notion that Thomas is such a better facilitator than Irving is. Even playing with Lebron James the last 3 years, Irving's career averages are still better than Thomas when it comes to apg and AST% (they are very close, but Irving has the slight edge).
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Kyrie makes us better. We get a guy that can do all the things IT did without having to be the bulk of the offense. How do you develop a team when one guy demands to be the show? How do you help mature tatum and brown when they are on the bench or watching IT take over. What's Hayward do when IT decides he wants to drive the lane and fumble away the ball bwcause he has to prove he's legit?
IT- a small pg that hasn't shown up much in the playoffs, coming off a hip injury, who plays with wreckless abandon, approaching 30, and commands the ball. Is gonna stifle young talent development like rozier/smart.No thanks
Crowder-good contract for a player that has declined in productivity since his injury. Is gonna stifle young talent like Tatum and brown.
Zizic-played lights out and Europe and slept his way through summer league. He was picked late in the 1st round. He's a dime a dozen in a league where his position is phasing out.
The Brooklyn pick- might be high, might be low. Might get a good player-might not-crapshoot-who cares. We have young developing talent at all positions with assets to trade or move up if necessary.
We have a great young core and we've improved as a team. Which really is what matters
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Danny obviously really, really loves Kyrie.
Even more than IT, obviously. He was ahead of the curve on his judgment of him.
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2012 Rookie of the Year
2013 NBA All-Star
2013 Three-Point Shootout Champion
2014 NBA All-Star
2014 NBA All-Star Game MVP
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medal
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup MVP
2015 NBA All-Star
2016 NBA Champion
2016 Summer Olympics Gold Medal
2017 NBA All-Star
The ONLY reason Kyrie hasn't made All-NBA recently, or viewed as a better player is because he shares the ball with Lebron James and Kevin Love who both get 20+ppg a night.
Nice list... Forgot hr won the 3 pt contest and even mvp of an all star game
The guy is a winner
Bring us banner 18 Kyrie
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Outside of AB ... And even AB struggled against him in the playoffs....who can guard Kyrie 1 on 1?
Unlike the little guy, kyrie does not need screens or picks to score buckets...
Love the fight he brings on the court... If you go on a 10-0 run...he can stop it and will counterattack
Jayson Tatum gets a staredown from that little punk Donovon Mitchell, Kyrie will attack him at will
Cant wait for the season to start
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Who knows if he will turn out to be good enough plus everyone has a different measure of how good good enough needs to be.
How about looking at it this way. Where does Irving fit in with the following group of potential comparable elite guards (no particular order):
Curry
Harden
Westbrook
Wall
Thomas
Paul
I don't think I am missing anyone. If you could trade Irving straight up for any of these, would you? I feel Irving is in the mix with any of these guys. It could be argued that IT is as well. IT had one season that matches pretty much any single season by any of these guys have had (exception maybe Westbrook with the Triple-Double season).
If this was a gymnastics completion, IT would have done all the tricks but loses some points due to his size, his expiring contract, and now his hip Age could be argued too 28 is not old by any measure. Not sure these "deductions" are fair, but I think it is reality. So my conclusion is that yes, Kyrie is good enough, right there with any other guard in the league. That is easy. The harder question is why isn't IT good enough too?
Now did we give up too much? Maybe, but that is a different discussion than is Kyrie good enough.
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Good thread.
This does remind me that Ainge loved loved Monta Ellis too. :(
Hopefully Kyrie grows as a facilitator like Thomas did when he got here otherwise we need Tatum/Brown/Lakers Pick to turn into a star pronto.
Kyrie's AST% was in the 30's before James got to Cleveland. In fact, Irving's career best is better than Thomas' career best and Irving's 2nd best is tied with Thomas' career best. I don't really get this notion that Thomas is such a better facilitator than Irving is. Even playing with Lebron James the last 3 years, Irving's career averages are still better than Thomas when it comes to apg and AST% (they are very close, but Irving has the slight edge).
Assist percentage is not the same as moving the ball and facilitating team offense. Which is rather important for a PG.
Its not even a good proxy. Isaiah very much improved in that aspect of the game during his stay in Boston. Meanwhile Kyrie stayed an iso machine the last few years with LBJ.
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If a thrown toy like Jordan Crawford had rehabilitated his value, under CBS, to bring back a 2nd rounder.
Then an ring and gold adorned olympian entering his prime is about to make some serious ... olive oil.
Brad eyes are lit and so are mine.
Also, Kyries favoured enemy is our biggest obstacle to the finals, that is very convinient IMO.
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for.
Instead, we get Kyrie, who:
* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);
* Is injury prone;
* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;
* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.
I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.
We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter). It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden... I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.
That's what I don't understand, how people on here think we got Kawhi or Curry. We got a great basketball player yes, but we also gave up a great one, and some.
Before Kyrie became available, and before he "tore our hearts out" in the playoffs, it was LeBron that we were scared of. It was Kevin Love crushing us with his three point barrage. All of a sudden, Kyrie is top-5 because we landed him.
We were also hearing how the Lakers were going to sniff the playoffs, but we still had the Nets pick! Now post-trade it's the Nets are gonna be good and the Lakers can't handle that tough west.
I truly believe people here would have thrown in the Lakers pick or Tatum just to say we got a normal sized PG who is only 25.
The price was pretty outrageous considering we could have paired IT with someone like Butler AND Fultz.
If he was willing to blow up the team (when only 4 players come back, that's gutting) and give away his best assets (the 2017 Nets swap AND the unprotected rights to 2018), he could have gotten more than Irving, Tatum, Morris and the Lakers/Kings pick.
Whatever. We still have a pretty great team and future, it's just Ainge pretty much depleted our depth and we have very few assets remaining. The Clippers pick may not convey. The Grizz pick won't be that good. Who knows what will happen with that Lakers/Kings pick with all the protections.
Ainge had a "fireworks" signing in July, now a "fireworks" trade in August. Maybe he has one more in him this offseason, who knows. But until that happens, meh.
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for.
Instead, we get Kyrie, who:
* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);
* Is injury prone;
* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;
* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.
I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.
We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter). It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden... I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.
From all accounts, Boogie was never an option because of his character concerns - and that seemed to be true for a lot of teams outside of the Celtics.
Could we have gotten Paul George? The further removed from that deal we get, the more I'm convinced Indy just didn't want to trade him within the Eastern Conference. They got a crappy deal in the end and walked away from a significantly better deal from Cleveland/Denver. And I genuinely think Ainge would've pulled the trigger after Hayward committed but it takes two to tango.
I don't know why we don't go harder after Jimmy Butler, I'm 100% with you there.
The story about him not talking with his teammates I take with a huge grain of salt. It's always suspect to me that these stories leak after a player requests a trade or is traded. I'm sure he's had his issues, you'd be hard pressed to find a player in this league who hasn't but that doesn't mean he's a cancer - reports can be blown out of proportion or falsified. Look no further than Broussard claiming IT wasn't liked by Boston teammates. When CP3 got traded to Houston, media rehashed his reported issues with Blake and DJ, and questioned his relationship with Doc. Let Chicago media tell it, Jimmy Butler was a diva. The whole point of "sources" is to control the narrative.
As far as the value of the deal compared to deals historically, hindsight is 20/20. At the time CP3 was traded to the Clippers, that deal looked good on paper: Eric Gordon (at the time, many considered a future All-Star), Chris Kaman (a starting caliber big), Al-Farouq Aminu (lottery selected player with upside on a rookie deal), and the Minnesota Timberwolves' unprotected first round pick in the 2012 draft. That's good value for a guy who wanted out and had the ability to opt out & leave in free agency... Ray Allen was 32 years old and still fetched a top 5 draft pick and Delonte West... Carmelo Anthony pretty much cost the Knicks most of their starting lineup save for Amar'e Stoudemire. Value is hard to quantify in these situations.
Look at it from the other perspective: IT can step in and play Kyrie's role, but what's health looking like coming off of a significant hip injury? Do you pony up $30m+ for him at his size going into his 30's? Does he even want to stay if Lebron bolts? Jae Crowder is a nice player, but he is a role player (and for us, at a position where we just added a high priced free agent and have two high lottery selections vying for playing time). He's not sustaining them if Lebron leaves. For now, I'll file Zizic under "throw in" - he could develop into a nice player but he looked overmatched in summer league. The pick hurts, but it's the only sure thing Cleveland is getting in the deal that could be a real long term piece for them.
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Good thread.
This does remind me that Ainge loved loved Monta Ellis too. :(
Hopefully Kyrie grows as a facilitator like Thomas did when he got here otherwise we need Tatum/Brown/Lakers Pick to turn into a star pronto.
Kyrie's AST% was in the 30's before James got to Cleveland. In fact, Irving's career best is better than Thomas' career best and Irving's 2nd best is tied with Thomas' career best. I don't really get this notion that Thomas is such a better facilitator than Irving is. Even playing with Lebron James the last 3 years, Irving's career averages are still better than Thomas when it comes to apg and AST% (they are very close, but Irving has the slight edge).
Assist percentage is not the same as moving the ball and facilitating team offense. Which is rather important for a PG.
Its not even a good proxy. Isaiah very much improved in that aspect of the game during his stay in Boston. Meanwhile Kyrie stayed an iso machine the last few years with LBJ.
and yet their USG% tells a different tale as well. Irving was 30.8% last year, Thomas was 34%. There are reasons to prefer Thomas over Irving, but let's just not make things up.
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and yet their USG% tells a different tale as well. Irving was 30.8% last year, Thomas was 34%. There are reasons to prefer Thomas over Irving, but let's just not make things up.
What does their usage have to do with facilitating an offense system and moving the ball? Again its a bad proxy and I think Irving needs to grow as an offensive player in areas other than indivdual scoring.
FWIW I'm done responding to you, I'd been gone long enough I forgot the rule I made for myself about that after a thread a few years ago.
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and yet their USG% tells a different tale as well. Irving was 30.8% last year, Thomas was 34%. There are reasons to prefer Thomas over Irving, but let's just not make things up.
What does their usage have to do with facilitating an offense system and moving the ball? Again its a bad proxy and I think Irving needs to grow as an offensive player in areas other than indivdual scoring.
FWIW I'm done responding to you, I'd been gone long enough I forgot the rule I made for myself about that after a thread a few years ago.
Who is the ISO machine? The one with the higher USG or the one with the lower USG?
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Lol at OP
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At the core of this trade was moving on from IT. We could have used that pick and Crowder to get other players, but we needed to move IT specifically and replace his production.
Ainge had decided the franchise wasn't willing to pay him enough to make him happy, so there was no way that looming contract was going to work out. As much as we love IT, the market for him under these circumstance wasn't very good.
We all rightfully love IT as fans, but we were heading in an unresolvable direction with him and this was the best way out that Ainge could find.
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Offensively between IT and Irving is a wash. IT wasn't a great or willing passer either. Both players are great scorers, and nowhere near the classic pass first PG.
When we get to the subject of defense...you're right, Irving is a lazy defender, with poor technique. But he CAN be left alone with his defensive assignment, with the chance of a fair outcome.
Where IT is the most useless defender in the NBA due to his size, the game is played over his head. EVERYtime he is on defense, he's looking for where his help will come from. He's helpless on D.
I liked Crowder, but if your investing in young player, you need to allow them to grow and play the game.
The Nets pick was necessary because IT has a hip injury that could be serious, if IT were already signed to the long term "Brinks Truck" contract, this deal would never have been made because of the hip. The Cavs are surely thinking if he can't play this year because of the hip, he's a Free agent next year anyway.
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Lol at OP
yup
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and yet their USG% tells a different tale as well. Irving was 30.8% last year, Thomas was 34%. There are reasons to prefer Thomas over Irving, but let's just not make things up.
What does their usage have to do with facilitating an offense system and moving the ball? Again its a bad proxy and I think Irving needs to grow as an offensive player in areas other than indivdual scoring.
FWIW I'm done responding to you, I'd been gone long enough I forgot the rule I made for myself about that after a thread a few years ago.
Who is the ISO machine? The one with the higher USG or the one with the lower USG?
Usage does not equal iso. It's possessions consumed. Irving had significantly more iso possessions than IT last year.
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and yet their USG% tells a different tale as well. Irving was 30.8% last year, Thomas was 34%. There are reasons to prefer Thomas over Irving, but let's just not make things up.
What does their usage have to do with facilitating an offense system and moving the ball? Again its a bad proxy and I think Irving needs to grow as an offensive player in areas other than indivdual scoring.
FWIW I'm done responding to you, I'd been gone long enough I forgot the rule I made for myself about that after a thread a few years ago.
Who is the ISO machine? The one with the higher USG or the one with the lower USG?
The ISO machine is the player who ran Isolation as 21% of his offensive plays. The one who ran them 9% of the time (though at identical efficiency) is not.
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I'm surprised to see the same sentiments from several great posters.
Cleveland did this deal to compete this year and rebuild next year and the Celtics were perfect partners to provide them with what they needed. Danny clearly did not want to re-sign IT after this season and I highly doubt Cleveland does either. If they somehow convince Lebron to stay, there is NO WAY they can pay IT $30M/yr. They are already in the luxury tax. Adding $20M-25M to the luxury tax and being repeaters will absolutely slaughter them. If Lebron leaves and Cleveland rebuilds, IT is probably not a part of the equation.
The Celtics are just replacing IT (and Crowder) a year early with Irving and then essentially trading Crowder, Zizic, and BKN '18 for Irving next year. I agree that the price was steep and I could have lived with the deal not happening, but IT is barely an asset in this trade to CLE. Frankly I think he is the 3rd most important piece in the deal.
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In a few years when they've all grown up at the same time, we'll be in line to be in the finals every year.
In a few years when Brown is a 2 way NBA stud, and Tatum is looking more and more like a young Paul Pierce, and Kyrie is still only 27 and simply being Kyrie, Hayward will still be is only 29. Throw in a young center. BOOM.
You'll see the forest through the tree's
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2012 Rookie of the Year
2013 NBA All-Star
2013 Three-Point Shootout Champion
2014 NBA All-Star
2014 NBA All-Star Game MVP
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medal
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup MVP
2015 NBA All-Star
2016 NBA Champion
2016 Summer Olympics Gold Medal
2017 NBA All-Star
The ONLY reason Kyrie hasn't made All-NBA recently, or viewed as a better player is because he shares the ball with Lebron James and Kevin Love who both get 20+ppg a night.
Boom!
Guys, we're getting a HOF all time great here. Stop sleeping.
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I'm surprised to see the same sentiments from several great posters.
Cleveland did this deal to compete this year and rebuild next year and the Celtics were perfect partners to provide them with what they needed. Danny clearly did not want to re-sign IT after this season and I highly doubt Cleveland does either. If they somehow convince Lebron to stay, there is NO WAY they can pay IT $30M/yr. They are already in the luxury tax. Adding $20M-25M to the luxury tax and being repeaters will absolutely slaughter them. If Lebron leaves and Cleveland rebuilds, IT is probably not a part of the equation.
The Celtics are just replacing IT (and Crowder) a year early with Irving and then essentially trading Crowder, Zizic, and BKN '18 for Irving next year. I agree that the price was steep and I could have lived with the deal not happening, but IT is barely an asset in this trade to CLE. Frankly I think he is the 3rd most important piece in the deal.
OMG, TP This^
IT isn't even the most important part in the eyes of Cleveland, outside of giving hope to LeBron, and the fans for this year. He's the wild card. If he remains healthy the odds are they won't sign him to max either. In a few years IT will be a 6th man, possibly coming off of hip surgery.
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Lol at OP
I thought Who made some good points until I read this. Thanks for opening my eyes.
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Ya know what I like about Kyrie?
He's the first NBA player in a generation who is both good enough AND willing to take Lebron on.
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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10 player with the right coach
So was IT.
Sorry, but he isn't. It's obvious your against this trade and that's fine, but I truly wonder how much you really watched Cleveland and the impact Kyrie had on that team WITH a superstar next to him! Brad featured Isaiah and he made the most of his opportunity (as the lead dog on the sled), but Kyrie has been beasting as a SECOND option. He is the 2nd best PG in the league (to me) behind Steph and that includes RW and JW. I bet anything your opinion on this PG swap will change by midseason.
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper
I hear what you're saying, Roy, and the same thought crossed my mind, but as one of my friends pointed out, those players cost fewer assets because the teams acquiring them didn't have the amount of assets Boston has. In other words, other GMs were always gonna be trying to get more from Danny, because he had more. It's the downside of having so much treasure in the warchest.
I wasn't a big fan of the trade initially, especially when I learned about the BKN pick being included, but I'm willing to see how this all plays out. At the very least, Boston got a player who's younger, healthier at the moment, and has an extra year on his contract.
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The cost was definitely more than I would have paid for him, time will tell if he's actually worth it.
Agreed on your second point, the only people who think Kyrie is leading us to a championship are Celtics fans lol.
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I've questioned Kyrie's maturity and his character just recently on here.
I've stated that the talent between them was negligible - at best - when determining who is better.
That being said Kyrie Irving is a CELTIC now. I'm going to support him.
I'm going to give him the opportunity - even beyond THIS UPCOMING SEASON if I have to - to put his money where his mouth is as far as wanting to be The Man.
We have a GREAT Popovichian-Like Coach in Brad Stevens. This is undeniable.
We STILL have The Lakers pick which is still very much in play.
We have a SIZABLE window to compete in...this is NOT the KG-Ray-PP window we had in 2008-12.
As long as Kyrie (and the TEAM) is willing to put in the WORK we will have something special here AND we'll put some banners up in the rafters.
I'm going to disagree with Poster "Who" (whom I hold as being a GREAT Basketball mind on this Blog) and believe that Kyrie "IS" good enough.
He HAS to be.
Danny has just about emptied his clip in getting him. He's maxxed out Hayward. We have Big Al locked up and we have some young stallions (Smart/JB/Tatum) in the ready.
We have to give him a shot (or two).
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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10 player with the right coach
So was IT.
Sorry, but he isn't. It's obvious your against this trade and that's fine, but I truly wonder how much you really watched Cleveland and the impact Kyrie had on that team WITH a superstar next to him! Brad featured Isaiah and he made the most of his opportunity (as the lead dog on the sled), but Kyrie has been beasting as a SECOND option. He is the 2nd best PG in the league (to me) behind Steph and that includes RW and JW. I bet anything your opinion on this PG swap will change by midseason.
we will see
Kyrie got the avenue, to shine in the playoffs ...late into the playoffs....
Maybe IT4 will get the same chance playing with Lebron.
The difference/reality is that...one guy has done it and the other may. So Kyrie is ahead
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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10 player with the right coach
So was IT.
Sorry, but he isn't. It's obvious your against this trade and that's fine, but I truly wonder how much you really watched Cleveland and the impact Kyrie had on that team WITH a superstar next to him! Brad featured Isaiah and he made the most of his opportunity (as the lead dog on the sled), but Kyrie has been beasting as a SECOND option. He is the 2nd best PG in the league (to me) behind Steph and that includes RW and JW. I bet anything your opinion on this PG swap will change by midseason.
we will see
Kyrie got the avenue, to shine in the playoffs ...late into the playoffs....
Maybe IT4 will get the same chance playing with Lebron.
The difference/reality is that...one guy has done it and the other may. So Kyrie is ahead
One guy has lead a team deep into the playoffs, the other has not. Kyrie has a lot to prove in Boston -- outside of being a flashy talent -- to be the clearly superior player.
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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10 player with the right coach
So was IT.
Sorry, but he isn't. It's obvious your against this trade and that's fine, but I truly wonder how much you really watched Cleveland and the impact Kyrie had on that team WITH a superstar next to him! Brad featured Isaiah and he made the most of his opportunity (as the lead dog on the sled), but Kyrie has been beasting as a SECOND option. He is the 2nd best PG in the league (to me) behind Steph and that includes RW and JW. I bet anything your opinion on this PG swap will change by midseason.
we will see
Kyrie got the avenue, to shine in the playoffs ...late into the playoffs....
Maybe IT4 will get the same chance playing with Lebron.
The difference/reality is that...one guy has done it and the other may. So Kyrie is ahead
One guy has lead a team deep into the playoffs, the other has not. Kyrie has a lot to prove in Boston -- outside of being a flashy talent -- to be the clearly superior player.
Well unfortunately Kyrie won't be able to satisfy your conditions
he can't , bc the Celts are pretty packed. You know what Horford and Hayward alone as key components were able to do ?
Last season don't mistaken, IT4 did everything. The difference between 2 season ago and last season (progression) was Horford (or at least a key part of it)
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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10 player with the right coach
So was IT.
Sorry, but he isn't. It's obvious your against this trade and that's fine, but I truly wonder how much you really watched Cleveland and the impact Kyrie had on that team WITH a superstar next to him! Brad featured Isaiah and he made the most of his opportunity (as the lead dog on the sled), but Kyrie has been beasting as a SECOND option. He is the 2nd best PG in the league (to me) behind Steph and that includes RW and JW. I bet anything your opinion on this PG swap will change by midseason.
we will see
Kyrie got the avenue, to shine in the playoffs ...late into the playoffs....
Maybe IT4 will get the same chance playing with Lebron.
The difference/reality is that...one guy has done it and the other may. So Kyrie is ahead
One guy has lead a team deep into the playoffs, the other has not. Kyrie has a lot to prove in Boston -- outside of being a flashy talent -- to be the clearly superior player.
Well unfortunately Kyrie won't be able to satisfy your conditions
he can't , bc the Celts are pretty packed. You know what Horford and Hayward alone as key components were able to do ?
Last season don't mistaken, IT4 did everything. The difference between 2 season ago and last season (progression) was Horford (or at least a key part of it)
Of course he can. He wanted to be "the man," and has the opportunity to fill in for IT4. He'll get a ton of touches and shots. Hayward and Horford are perfectly complementary players for him, and neither will look to be the primary option.
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Deja vu. Couple years ago. He's a gunner, cancer, black hole. Short/selective memories.
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Irving is a top 15 player and can be a top 5-10 player with the right coach
So was IT.
Sorry, but he isn't. It's obvious your against this trade and that's fine, but I truly wonder how much you really watched Cleveland and the impact Kyrie had on that team WITH a superstar next to him! Brad featured Isaiah and he made the most of his opportunity (as the lead dog on the sled), but Kyrie has been beasting as a SECOND option. He is the 2nd best PG in the league (to me) behind Steph and that includes RW and JW. I bet anything your opinion on this PG swap will change by midseason.
we will see
Kyrie got the avenue, to shine in the playoffs ...late into the playoffs....
Maybe IT4 will get the same chance playing with Lebron.
The difference/reality is that...one guy has done it and the other may. So Kyrie is ahead
One guy has lead a team deep into the playoffs, the other has not. Kyrie has a lot to prove in Boston -- outside of being a flashy talent -- to be the clearly superior player.
Well unfortunately Kyrie won't be able to satisfy your conditions
he can't , bc the Celts are pretty packed. You know what Horford and Hayward alone as key components were able to do ?
Last season don't mistaken, IT4 did everything. The difference between 2 season ago and last season (progression) was Horford (or at least a key part of it)
Of course he can. He wanted to be "the man," and has the opportunity to fill in for IT4. He'll get a ton of touches and shots. Hayward and Horford are perfectly complementary players for him, and neither will look to be the primary option.
yes and thats why it can work
but you think Hayward is a guy that will just let Kyrie do everything? Hayward is a top 5 SF in the league
I know what you are trying to say...but my point is....Kyrie wanted to get out of Lebron circus more than he wants to be the "man"
if he wanted to be the "man" ...he would of been happy to be traded just about anywhere instead of the carefully thought out list he presented to the cavs
He wants to win...just not under Lebron.
i'm sure he wants to take the last shot ... but don't think he will be upset if CBS draws up something for xyz.... as long as another reporter doesn't ask " how does it feel like being a puppet under Lebum" I think Kyrie will be happy
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Also, while it's true that his defence is poor, he's only 25 - he is not a finished product yet.
Guys at 25 are pretty finished. What you see is what you get, so you better like it...
Not James Harden, Steph Curry, Isaiah Thomas or Russell Westbrook. All had major leaps in their games at about or after 25 years of age. Danny is betting Kyrie will to, especially since Kyrie has had horrible coaches since he has been in the league.
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2012 Rookie of the Year
2013 NBA All-Star
2013 Three-Point Shootout Champion
2014 NBA All-Star
2014 NBA All-Star Game MVP
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup Gold Medal
2014 FIBA Basketball World Cup MVP
2015 NBA All-Star
2016 NBA Champion
2016 Summer Olympics Gold Medal
2017 NBA All-Star
The ONLY reason Kyrie hasn't made All-NBA recently, or viewed as a better player is because he shares the ball with Lebron James and Kevin Love who both get 20+ppg a night.
Nice list... Forgot hr won the 3 pt contest and even mvp of an all star game
The guy is a winner
Bring us banner 18 Kyrie
yeah but the OP said he was not good enough! forget all those facts in that list! Let's MELT and panic!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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His lack of all-round game makes it impossible for him to positively effect the outcome of a game when he isn't scoring.
You are entitled to your opinion on Kyrie, and maybe you are right. But the statement above could just as easily apply to Isaiah Thomas.
Once you accept that IT and Kyrie are at least equivalent in productivity, but that Kyrie is 4 years younger than IT, under contract longer and at a more reasonable price, you see why they had to give up more than just IT to get him (that doesn't include the fact that they had to add Crowder just for salary matching). And for the team, that means that the production will not drop that dramatically, even if Kyrie is worse under Stevens and without Lebron.
We can debate whether they gave up too much. I am still not a fan of the trade strictly because of the Brooklyn pick, given that there is a good chance that is a top-3 pick. But I have thought about it and am no longer as opposed to it as I was initially, because IT is likely going to the highest bidder come free agency and that was not going to be Boston. So Danny had to trade him regardless, and he got a younger version of him (basketball-wise) under contract longer.
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for.
Instead, we get Kyrie
This is a huge Straw Man and you know it.
If you want to be against the trade of IT, Crowder, the BK pick, and Zizic for Kyrie, that is fine. Like I said in a post above, those people very much against this trade may be correct in the long run. That's what makes this interesting, at least.
But stop with the fallacies that a similar or cheaper package would have netted George, or someone like him for example. We have no idea if these guys were ever truly available to Boston and what the price truly was, if they were.
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for.
Instead, we get Kyrie
Not sure what's odd about it. Pretty sure it's a timing consideration. He chose to keep cap flexibility and sign Hayward instead of trading for any of those guys. Irving wasn't supposed to be available so it's not like he turned down George and Butler to trade for Irving.
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for.
Instead, we get Kyrie, who:
* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);
* Is injury prone;
* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;
* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.
I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.
We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter). It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden... I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.
Cousins, probably, but I get the reason why they passed. Afterall they are the ones who is gonna handle the team, not you.
Butler, no. Don't want an inefficient guy(just check his FG% against us in the playoffs who cannot shoot and throws teammates under the bus.
George, would love him in Green, but the contract was risky.
I dont like the trade, I think we gave up a little too much for the present. We also traded a guy who wanted to win and wanted to be with us vs a team who wanted out despite winning.
However, you fail to factor in, that this probably a better move for us in the future, having Kyrie at 28 yrs maxed is a lot better than having IT at 31 maxed.
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We will see what happens. I imagine Kyrie, with Smart beside him locking down opposition PGs and providing assists, and Kyrie doing what Kyrie does. Brown and Tatum will keep opposition teams honest and probably show more than regular bench players.
The goal is to beat GSW, I am not sure that the Celtic's roster does that with Kyrie. I do believe though that the team is closer than it was last season and we haven't blown the future, what a squad for the next few seasons.
My original gut response to the trade was that we gave up too much. I would have loved to see IT win a championship in green and so on. Now I look at the roster and believe that if Brown and Tatum can add something that we expect of them, Kyrie could push the Celtics past the Cavs and who knows what happens beyond that.
There is a lot of speculation but I trust coach Stevens and Kyrie wants to win. What a ride this season should be.
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* Is injury prone;
* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;
* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.
I think almost the same things can be said of IT, his defense is not good. He was traded for peanuts to us because GM's didn't think he could play in the league, and he has been injured with the hip.
Are you trying to argue for or against Kyrie or comparing him with IT.
* Irving has played clutch at the highest level of the game.
* We get a few more years before the brinks truck
I love IT and he gave his all for us but people seem to forget that his game had a lot of warts too.
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* Is injury prone;
* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;
* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.
I think almost the same things can be said of IT, his defense is not good. He was traded for peanuts to us because GM's didn't think he could play in the league, and he has been injured with the hip.
Are you trying to argue for or against Kyrie or comparing him with IT.
* Irving has played clutch at the highest level of the game.
* We get a few more years before the brinks truck
I love IT and he gave his all for us but people seem to forget that his game had a lot of warts too.
I'm arguing that the difference between IT and Kyrie isn't worth Crowder, Zizic and the Brooklyn pick. Kyrie is a great scorer, but he has the same deficiencies in his game that IT had, plus a few more intangible concerns.
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I'm arguing that the difference between IT and Kyrie isn't worth Crowder, Zizic and the Brooklyn pick.
The difference between 2016-17 IT and Kyrie may not be worth it. But the difference between 2017-18-and-beyond IT and Kyrie is. Because present and future IT has a ****** up hip. The difference between them last year is rendered irrelevant by that hip.
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* Is injury prone;
* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;
* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.
I think almost the same things can be said of IT, his defense is not good. He was traded for peanuts to us because GM's didn't think he could play in the league, and he has been injured with the hip.
Are you trying to argue for or against Kyrie or comparing him with IT.
* Irving has played clutch at the highest level of the game.
* We get a few more years before the brinks truck
I love IT and he gave his all for us but people seem to forget that his game had a lot of warts too.
I'm arguing that the difference between IT and Kyrie isn't worth Crowder, Zizic and the Brooklyn pick. Kyrie is a great scorer, but he has the same deficiencies in his game that IT had, plus a few more intangible concerns.
If the pick lands at 6, he is absolutely worth the difference.
For what it's worth, IMHO here's a list of teams worse than BKN :
Atlanta
Bulls
Magic
Indy
Sacto
Lakers
Dallas
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for.
Instead, we get Kyrie
Not sure what's odd about it. Pretty sure it's a timing consideration. He chose to keep cap flexibility and sign Hayward instead of trading for any of those guys. Irving wasn't supposed to be available so it's not like he turned down George and Butler to trade for Irving.
While I disagree with Koz quite a bit I think he hit the nail on the head here, and in addition to this point, by all accounts all the other stars available who went for less would have cost at least what Kyrie cost, except Jimmy Butler because the Bulls wanted a pick this year. But Danny loves Tatum, wouldn't even trade him for Kyrie, so he wouldn't trade him for Butler either.
In fact, if you write IT off since we wouldn't resign him, the other stars might have actually cost more than Kyrie because instead of asking for a guy we were gonna let walk anyway, by all accounts they were asking for Brooklyn 18, Smart, Crowder, maybe even Brown of LA pick. By all accounts teams were asking double of us what they ended up with. So to me, you can't compare what those teams got with what the Cavs got. The playing field isn't level.
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Anyone catch Simmons podcast this week with Kevin Durant? Durant thinks Boston's the best place for Irving to be and thinks Ainge made a great trade.
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I think one thing being largely overlooked is that Ainge clearly had no intention of giving IT the max next summer. So, sure, maybe the difference between Kyrie and IT might not be Crowder, Ante, and the pick at this exact moment in time, but I think Danny was looking beyond the here and now when he pulled the trigger.
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It's just odd to me that Danny passed on guys like Cousins, George, and Butler. All of those guys were cheaper, and more well-rounded. The perception was that Danny passed because of a variety of flaws, whether they be character-related, due to financial issues, or just not being good enough to cash in our assets for.
Instead, we get Kyrie, who:
* Stopped talking with teammates in the playoffs, and has clashed with coaches and teammates throughout his career (most notably, Waiters);
* Is injury prone;
* Is terrible at defense and mediocre at passing;
* Has not been successful as "the man", both prior to Lebron and during games Lebron misses.
I'd rather have IT and Jimmy Butler than Kyrie, and it's not close. Same thing with IT and PG13, or IT and Boogie.
We traded IT for a bigger, more brittle IT 2.0. For that "upgrade", it cost us Crowder, Zizic, and a potentially generational talent (Bagley, Porter). It's a price that is pretty much unprecedented in recent NBA history. Chris Paul -- a 26 year old with three All-NBA teams and multiple All-Defense teams -- didn't bring that value. KG and Ray, combined, didn't have that value. Not Carmelo, not Howard, not Shaq, not Harden... I can't think of a trade in the past 25 years where a team gave up this much present day value, and we did it for a guy who isn't that much better (if at all) than the guy we already had on the roster.
Well said. 100% agree.
I wouldn't have traded the Brooklyn pick straight up for Irving. It's going to be a top 3 pick at minimum.
I would have waited 3-5 years for Bagley to come into his own because he projects to be the best two way big since KG and a legit superstar.
Irving is a great great great GREAT scorer. But his lack of defense and vision is just glaring.
Plus he wants to be "the man" but in 2-3 years Tatum will be the best player on this team and Kyrie will once again gripe that he isn't "the man".
The drop off (in production) from Irving to IT isn't that big IMO. And IT has shown he can carry a team AND pass the ball. For being 5'9 his court awareness is impeccable.
Plus IT has shown he has loads of heart. That isn't something you can quantify and is rare to find in athletes today.
I honestly thought Ainge was smarter than this.
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I think one thing being largely overlooked is that Ainge clearly had no intention of giving IT the max next summer. So, sure, maybe the difference between Kyrie and IT might not be Crowder, Ante, and the pick at this exact moment in time, but I think Danny was looking beyond the here and now when he pulled the trigger.
I have been a broken record saying the same thing, basically that the trade is in two parts:
Kyrie for IT, Crowder, and Zizic for 17-18
Kyrie for Crowder, Zizic, and BKN pick for 18-19 and beyond
It is also driving me crazy that people think we could have gotten a player like Butler for less. Chicago surely wanted the BKN pick, along with AB and Crowder. We would then be stuck with IT/Butler/Horford (no BKN pick) for the future, rather than Kyrie/Hayward/Horford - it seems like a no-brainer to me.
For these reasons, along with age and contract concerns, I do not think Kyrie has to elevate his game to a 'transcendent' level. I think he should improve slightly now that he is out of Lebron's shadow, but I am perfectly happy switching out IT and Butler for Kyrie and Hayward.
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I honestly think the chance to get a superstar just entering his prime was too much to resist for Ainge. Those chances just don't come along very often.
Irving isn't quite there yet, but I think its reasonable to expect that he can make that jump with Brad coaching him. One thing Brad does as well or better than anyone is put players in the best positions to succeed.
It may or may not work but Ainge put his cards on the table finally. Personally I love IT, but I'd have made the deal. If it works the Celtics will be in a position to pay Irving more than anyone else at a time when he's at the apex of his career. If it doesn't he'll still have Brown and eventually Tatum to pay.
I like this option vs overpaying a 5-7" guy in his mid 30's the last two years 5 year deal when his performance level likely drops a bit due to the physical toll that's been taken on him due to the way he plays.
I'd have still paid IT but given the choice of those options - Irving's the safer bet - my opinion anyway.
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I think one thing being largely overlooked is that Ainge clearly had no intention of giving IT the max next summer. So, sure, maybe the difference between Kyrie and IT might not be Crowder, Ante, and the pick at this exact moment in time, but I think Danny was looking beyond the here and now when he pulled the trigger.
I have been a broken record saying the same thing, basically that the trade is in two parts:
Kyrie for IT, Crowder, and Zizic for 17-18
Kyrie for Crowder, Zizic, and BKN pick for 18-19 and beyond
It is also driving me crazy that people think we could have gotten a player like Butler for less. Chicago surely wanted the BKN pick, along with AB and Crowder. We would then be stuck with IT/Butler/Horford (no BKN pick) for the future, rather than Kyrie/Hayward/Horford - it seems like a no-brainer to me.
For these reasons, along with age and contract concerns, I do not think Kyrie has to elevate his game to a 'transcendent' level. I think he should improve slightly now that he is out of Lebron's shadow, but I am perfectly happy switching out IT and Butler for Kyrie and Hayward.
Well, I get the argument we overpaid given Cleveland's precarious position with Irving wanting out, but I think people don't fully realize Danny was in one too. If he had no intention of resigning IT, he had now and the deadline to still try to get value for him, and it would be harder to pull off a trade of this magnitude between two top teams in the middle of the season.
I also think that Hayward and Horford signings made it a lot harder for him to wait and hope the Brooklyn pick was a star. First, the pick may end up being a bust and even if the pick was great, when would that player come into his own? There's a lot of pressure to win now.
Also, a minor ancillary benefit of this trade is that it's going to be very hard for Brown and/or Tatum to put up the kind of numbers to get a huge contract after their rookie deals with Irving and Hayward here, and that could solve a lot of questions about what to do with extensions and the cap and luxury tax.
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I think one thing being largely overlooked is that Ainge clearly had no intention of giving IT the max next summer. So, sure, maybe the difference between Kyrie and IT might not be Crowder, Ante, and the pick at this exact moment in time, but I think Danny was looking beyond the here and now when he pulled the trigger.
I have been a broken record saying the same thing, basically that the trade is in two parts:
Kyrie for IT, Crowder, and Zizic for 17-18
Kyrie for Crowder, Zizic, and BKN pick for 18-19 and beyond
It is also driving me crazy that people think we could have gotten a player like Butler for less. Chicago surely wanted the BKN pick, along with AB and Crowder. We would then be stuck with IT/Butler/Horford (no BKN pick) for the future, rather than Kyrie/Hayward/Horford - it seems like a no-brainer to me.
For these reasons, along with age and contract concerns, I do not think Kyrie has to elevate his game to a 'transcendent' level. I think he should improve slightly now that he is out of Lebron's shadow, but I am perfectly happy switching out IT and Butler for Kyrie and Hayward.
But all you're guaranteed is 2 years of Irving, so it's really 1 year of Thomas for Irving, 1 year of pick for Irving, and then x years of pick for nothing.
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I think one thing being largely overlooked is that Ainge clearly had no intention of giving IT the max next summer. So, sure, maybe the difference between Kyrie and IT might not be Crowder, Ante, and the pick at this exact moment in time, but I think Danny was looking beyond the here and now when he pulled the trigger.
I have been a broken record saying the same thing, basically that the trade is in two parts:
Kyrie for IT, Crowder, and Zizic for 17-18
Kyrie for Crowder, Zizic, and BKN pick for 18-19 and beyond
It is also driving me crazy that people think we could have gotten a player like Butler for less. Chicago surely wanted the BKN pick, along with AB and Crowder. We would then be stuck with IT/Butler/Horford (no BKN pick) for the future, rather than Kyrie/Hayward/Horford - it seems like a no-brainer to me.
For these reasons, along with age and contract concerns, I do not think Kyrie has to elevate his game to a 'transcendent' level. I think he should improve slightly now that he is out of Lebron's shadow, but I am perfectly happy switching out IT and Butler for Kyrie and Hayward.
But all you're guaranteed is 2 years of Irving, so it's really 1 year of Thomas for Irving, 1 year of pick for Irving, and then x years of pick for nothing.
But I think people are overlooking the fact that Irving has been jockeying to be dealt to either Boston or San Antonio the whole time, and that's a huge difference from trading for Paul George who has all but said he's going West.
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But I think people are overlooking the fact that Irving has been jockeying to be dealt to either Boston or San Antonio the whole time, and that's a huge difference from trading for Paul George who has all but said he's going West.
According to sbnation, Irving's short list didn't include Boston: https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/8/22/16187230/kyrie-irving-trade-celtics-extension-isaiah-thomas
He did express excitement after the fact, but I don't think that really means anything. He's obviously not going to immediately force his way out of Boston.
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But I think people are overlooking the fact that Irving has been jockeying to be dealt to either Boston or San Antonio the whole time, and that's a huge difference from trading for Paul George who has all but said he's going West.
According to sbnation, Irving's short list didn't include Boston: https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/8/22/16187230/kyrie-irving-trade-celtics-extension-isaiah-thomas
He did express excitement after the fact, but I don't think that really means anything. He's obviously not going to immediately force his way out of Boston.
According to David Griffin, Stevens was on his list of coaches he wanted to play for, so he surely had Boston on his list in some capacity.
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But I think people are overlooking the fact that Irving has been jockeying to be dealt to either Boston or San Antonio the whole time, and that's a huge difference from trading for Paul George who has all but said he's going West.
According to sbnation, Irving's short list didn't include Boston: https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/8/22/16187230/kyrie-irving-trade-celtics-extension-isaiah-thomas
He did express excitement after the fact, but I don't think that really means anything. He's obviously not going to immediately force his way out of Boston.
It was reported that he had two lists of teams or that the 4 released names weren't the only teams on his list. Remember, Irving didn't leak that list so there easily could have been an agenda from whomever did.
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There is zero chance Ainge didn't clear this with Kyrie's agent before making the deal. Its a two year tryout for both sides, just like any other team that would have traded for Kyrie on his list.
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But I think people are overlooking the fact that Irving has been jockeying to be dealt to either Boston or San Antonio the whole time, and that's a huge difference from trading for Paul George who has all but said he's going West.
According to sbnation, Irving's short list didn't include Boston: https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/8/22/16187230/kyrie-irving-trade-celtics-extension-isaiah-thomas
He did express excitement after the fact, but I don't think that really means anything. He's obviously not going to immediately force his way out of Boston.
It was reported that he had two lists of teams or that the 4 released names weren't the only teams on his list. Remember, Irving didn't leak that list so there easily could have been an agenda from whomever did.
Regardless, given his current contract and his at least somewhat desire to play here, he was a better gamble than Paul George. I think he's also on another level from Butler and clearly much saner (and less toxic) than Cousins.
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Regardless, given his current contract and his at least somewhat desire to play here, he was a better gamble than Paul George. I think he's also on another level from Butler and clearly much saner (and less toxic) than Cousins.
He's definitely more likely to stick around the PG (because the likelihood isn't 0%).
However I personally don't think the way he acted with this situation bodes well for any team wanting to retain him, and we still have no idea if he's going to stick around. I don't think it's possible for both what Griffin and the other report said to be true - the other report had him wanting teams with bad coaches. I really have no idea which one is more agenda driven though.
I personally think Butler is better than him and Cousins is MUCH better than him, so I'd have made this gamble with them if possible. Given that wasn't possible (or that we weren't willing to do it with Cousins), I would have demanded top 3 protection in a trade with Kyrie. If that kills the deal, that's fine by me - I'll just bank on my assets.
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But I think people are overlooking the fact that Irving has been jockeying to be dealt to either Boston or San Antonio the whole time, and that's a huge difference from trading for Paul George who has all but said he's going West.
According to sbnation, Irving's short list didn't include Boston: https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2017/8/22/16187230/kyrie-irving-trade-celtics-extension-isaiah-thomas
He did express excitement after the fact, but I don't think that really means anything. He's obviously not going to immediately force his way out of Boston.
According to David Griffin, Stevens was on his list of coaches he wanted to play for, so he surely had Boston on his list in some capacity.
Yeah, this is what is important to me. The fact Stevens is one of the coaches Kyrie wants to play for bodes well.
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His lack of all-round game makes it impossible for him to positively effect the outcome of a game when he isn't scoring.
Once you accept that IT and Kyrie are at least equivalent in productivity, but that Kyrie is 4 years younger than IT, under contract longer and at a more reasonable price, you see why they had to give up more than just IT to get him (that doesn't include the fact that they had to add Crowder just for salary matching). And for the team, that means that the production will not drop that dramatically, even if Kyrie is worse under Stevens and without Lebron.
I swear, it seems like Isaiah is getting older and shorter with every CelticsBlog thread.
Isaiah is 3 years and 38 days older than Kyrie Irving. They are not 4 years apart.
FWIW, they came into the NBA in the same season and they have almost the same number of minutes of wear and tear. Thomas has a little bit more minutes from college, whereas Irving has a little bit more minutes from the playoffs.
Kyrie is under contract control for one more year than Thomas. Whether it is at a "more reasonable price" is debatable. He will cost about 13M more this year and possibly about 10M less in the following year. After that, he will almost certainly cost more.
The trade premium was, indeed for the opportunity to sign Irving long term with a next contract starting at 27, as opposed to Isaiah's which would have started at age 29.
So if we all accept that near term, Irving and Isaiah are roughly equivalent in productivity, then we gave up Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and the BKN18 pick for the difference between 2 years of prime Irving and 2 years of just-past prime Thomas.
Whether that will be worth it remains to be seen.
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I have been a broken record saying the same thing, basically that the trade is in two parts:
Kyrie for IT, Crowder, and Zizic for 17-18
Kyrie for Crowder, Zizic, and BKN pick for 18-19 and beyond
Great way of looking at it!
Celtics obviously win the first part, given the hip.
Second part won't know until the lottery.
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One of the arguments is why Kyrie and not Cousins, Butler, or George. I am fine with Kyrie out of this group. Cousins is, well Cousins so no thanks, George would be a very high risk to be just a rental, and Butler is probably not better than Irving. I am fine that it is Kyrie that we ended up with out of this group.
Another argument is that we overpaid for him (probably the best argument against the trade). I feel Danny explained this. I think what he is saying is that he didn't want to miss out. Kind of like when you buy a house in a hot market. You probably have to feel like you are overpaying if you don't want to lose the house. Danny was not bargain hunting like he sometimes does. This was a different kind of deal.
The question of the thread is whether Kyrie is good enough, not whether we overpaid or if there was another deal that might have been a better value. So it is like when Love was traded for Wiggins or Harden for Lamb plus a bunch of picks. Cleveland may end up with a Wiggins level prospect, someone who ends up being a good player in 3 or 4 years. In the meantime, Irving will be a key player for us. Yes, we probably did overpay like Houston for Harden and Cleveland for Love but I fine with it.
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I'm arguing that the difference between IT and Kyrie isn't worth Crowder, Zizic and the Brooklyn pick. Kyrie is a great scorer, but he has the same deficiencies in his game that IT had, plus a few more intangible concerns.
I really don't think you should use Zizic as a point here. His inclusion does not strengthen it.
Crowder has peaked, mark my words. Ainge basically said this is about timeline. That means he believes we don't have a chance to compete right now with the top two teams. He is hoping Tatum or Brown blossoms into the star we need to couple with Hayward and Irving. Horford is a complimentary player but a good one but his game is in decline.
We added Hayward who is better than Crowder. We added Irving who is even with IT or slightly better or worse depending on who you ask. I am more worried about losing AB than Crowder or IT because I don't think that Smart or Rozier may not be up to task replacing him. I have mixed feelings on Crowder because I thought at times he acted like the was the man and took ill advised shots at the end of games. Sometimes they worked sometimes they did not. He played hard and improved every year. I wish non of these players ill and I have Jae in my thoughts because of the death of his mother.
So that leaves the Brooklyn pick which it stinks to lose. Picks are risky, too. And I think Ainge found out that when you have a ton of picks people want them all in trades. We still have a few left, BTW.
Only four players from last year, really active off season. I am optimistic because I think Tatum is going to be a special player and I did not think that prior to the draft, I wanted Jackson. But I am a believer now. Crowder basically was going to take minutes from Brown and Tatum. Brown scares me a bit because he is all over the place in terms of consistency but he is exciting and I love it when he comes into the game because of his athleticism.
So I get some are hurt and don't like the trade that is your prerogative and I respect that. But I don't agree with it.
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His lack of all-round game makes it impossible for him to positively effect the outcome of a game when he isn't scoring.
Once you accept that IT and Kyrie are at least equivalent in productivity, but that Kyrie is 4 years younger than IT, under contract longer and at a more reasonable price, you see why they had to give up more than just IT to get him (that doesn't include the fact that they had to add Crowder just for salary matching). And for the team, that means that the production will not drop that dramatically, even if Kyrie is worse under Stevens and without Lebron.
I swear, it seems like Isaiah is getting older and shorter with every CelticsBlog thread.
Isaiah is 3 years and 38 days older than Kyrie Irving. They are not 4 years apart.
FWIW, they came into the NBA in the same season and they have almost the same number of minutes of wear and tear. Thomas has a little bit more minutes from college, whereas Irving has a little bit more minutes from the playoffs.
Kyrie is under contract control for one more year than Thomas. Whether it is at a "more reasonable price" is debatable. He will cost about 13M more this year and possibly about 10M less in the following year. After that, he will almost certainly cost more.
The trade premium was, indeed for the opportunity to sign Irving long term with a next contract starting at 27, as opposed to Isaiah's which would have started at age 29.
So if we all accept that near term, Irving and Isaiah are roughly equivalent in productivity, then we gave up Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and the BKN18 pick for the difference between 2 years of prime Irving and 2 years of just-past prime Thomas.
Whether that will be worth it remains to be seen.
You seem to be valuing I.T. as though he is not currently injured. A healthy I.T. with 1 year left on his contract might get you 50% of Irving in value but he is not that player as we sit. It is not inconceivable to see him giving the Cavs next to nothing this year and at minimum you can't expect he will return to the form he had for the C's last year. I.T. is not running at all right now 3+ months after his last game and is thought to be going to miss the beginning of the season, that is alarming.
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Kyrie Irving isn't good enough to:
(1) be worth what Ainge gave up for him
(2) to lead a team to a Championship
Jury could be out on (1), though I do agree we overpayed big time for Irving.
But I agree with (2). Just don't think we can win a championship with Irving as our true alpha with the team as currently constructed. Need another piece/star.
It would be nicer if Horford was like 3-4 years younger. Still a solid, great veteran player but he's past his prime now.
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Took some time off, just heard about this deal.
Are we sure Danny isn't showing first signs of dementia?
What a mess of an off-season.
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Took some time off, just heard about this deal.
Are we sure Danny isn't showing first signs of dementia?
What a mess of an off-season.
so signing hayward was a mess? trying to improve team with kyrie was a mess? Go back to taking more time off. thanks!
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Kyrie Irving isn't good enough to:
(1) be worth what Ainge gave up for him
(2) to lead a team to a Championship
I like that Ainge combined his assets and went after a top star. But I hate that Ainge chose Kyrie Irving to be that player. Irving simply isn't talented enough to warrant such acclaim.
Kyrie is a terrific scorer but he is a bad defensive player, a bad rebounder, a bad passer and poor floor general.
His lack of all-round game makes it impossible for him to positively effect the outcome of a game when he isn't scoring. Which is a big reason why his teams struggled pre-LeBron and continued to struggle while LeBron was resting on the bench over the last couple of years.
Kyrie frequently misses basic passing opportunities. He frequently gets tunnel vision and can think of nothing else but putting up a shot. Frequently over-dribbles and stagnates the offense. All of which makes him difficult to play with. The opposite of someone who makes his teammates better.
Of further concern is the lack of development Kyrie has made over the last few seasons especially while playing on a top team in Cleveland next to LeBron James. He has not matured as a basketball player. He still does not put regular effort in on defense. He still does not make consistently sound decisions on offense. He still lacks the inability to lead his team whenever LeBron isn't around to hold his hand.
Kyrie Irving simply isn't good enough.
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Think of all the great Celtics that have won Championships here.
The 2008 team -- KG was an elite defender, strong rebounder, elite passer, very good scorer. Pierce was an elite scorer, good defender, good rebounder, very good passer.
The 80s teams -- Bird was an elite scorer, rebounder, passer and a good defender in his earlier years. McHale was an elite scorer and defender. Parish was a plus scorer, defender & rebounder.
The 70s teams -- Cowens was an elite defensive player, elite rebounder, very good passer and a good scorer. Havlicek was an elite scorer, elite defender, very good passer and rebounder. Jo Jo White was a very good scorer and defender.
The 60s teams -- Russell was an elite defender, elite rebounder, elite passer, good scorer. Havlicek noted above. Sam Jones was a very good scorer and defender. Cousy was an elite passer, good scorer and capable defender.
All of those teams were led by multi-dimensional stars ... players who could effect and even dominate games in multiple ways. Not one-dimensional scorers.
Kyrie doesn't have the talent to lead a team the way those guys did or so many other Champions have over the History of this league. He simply isn't well-rounded enough. He has never displayed the maturity necessary to lead a top team. To put in the effort required to improve his defense or rebounding. Never understood the value in passing, in creating for others instead of just himself. He is too single-minded. Too obsessed with himself. With how much he scores. Not his team. Only himself!
Kyrie Irving isn't good enough for Ainge to go all-out like this. To give up such a huge trade for or to build a team around. Kyrie doesn't have the talent for that.
Kyrie is a top 3 pointguard in the nba and is young. The ones above him are older and already in their primes. Kyrie is just entering his.
If we somehow trade for Davis you dont think Kyrie/Davis/Hayward is enough to win the championship in 3 years?
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Kyrie is 10 times better than a 5'9 broken down Thomas who is about to turn 30.
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Kyrie is 10 times better than a 5'9 broken down Thomas who is about to turn 30.
END THREAD
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Kyrie is amazing now and will be better in Stevens' system.
Kyrie Irving Top 25 Crossover 2017
https://youtu.be/3Sb7rQyiERs