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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: hpantazo on August 17, 2017, 10:24:10 PM

Title: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: hpantazo on August 17, 2017, 10:24:10 PM
It's inevitable that some of our top prospects will not turn out to be star players or major contributors to a championship team. Its hard to make that call now, but I was wondering, who do you guys think will be disappointing long term from our current crop?

As far as top tier (top of the lottery) prospects, we have:


Jaylen Brown

Jayson Tatum

Marcus Smart

In the past, there is always one out of the two that works out, and one that does not. Take the Celtics for example:

Paul Pierce (HOF , NBA Finals MVP) and Antoine Walker

Chauncey Billups (NBA Finals MVP) and Ron Mercer

Joe Johnson (perennial all-star) and Kedrick Brown

Rajon Rondo (key contributor to 2008 NBA Champions :) and Delonte West





Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: hpantazo on August 17, 2017, 10:30:14 PM
I personally think it may be Jaylen Brown (although I hope I'm wrong).

I see Marcus as more in the Chauncey Billups type trajectory, he will take longer to develop to his max potential but he will be a key contributor to a championship level team.

I see Tatum as a guy who already has the tools to be an all-star on the offensive end, and he's only 19. In 2-3 years he can reach Paul Pierce level impact.

Jaylen has the largest boom and bust potential, and the most holes in his game. If he doesn't improve his handle and his shot, and his overall control on offense and passing out of double teams, he will level out to be a decent but not great player in the league.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: More Banners on August 17, 2017, 10:42:02 PM
I personally think it may be Jaylen Brown (although I hope I'm wrong).

I see Marcus as more in the Chauncey Billups type trajectory, he will take longer to develop to his max potential but he will be a key contributor to a championship level team.

I see Tatum as a guy who already has the tools to be an all-star on the offensive end, and he's only 19. In 2-3 years he can reach Paul Pierce level impact.

Jaylen has the largest boom and bust potential, and the most holes in his game. If he doesn't improve his handle and his shot, and his overall control on offense and passing out of double teams, he will level out to be a decent but not great player in the league.

Marcus. Shooting and passing need to improve. No first step. I've got Brown and Tatum blowing him away.

Browns passing and handle need to improve, but his spot up 3 improved already, D is goodish, and has the explosiveness to scare opponents. Worst case, a smart Ricky Davis. That's actually not bad at all, since Ricky's biggest problem was being an idiot.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: hpantazo on August 17, 2017, 11:11:57 PM
I personally think it may be Jaylen Brown (although I hope I'm wrong).

I see Marcus as more in the Chauncey Billups type trajectory, he will take longer to develop to his max potential but he will be a key contributor to a championship level team.

I see Tatum as a guy who already has the tools to be an all-star on the offensive end, and he's only 19. In 2-3 years he can reach Paul Pierce level impact.

Jaylen has the largest boom and bust potential, and the most holes in his game. If he doesn't improve his handle and his shot, and his overall control on offense and passing out of double teams, he will level out to be a decent but not great player in the league.

Marcus. Shooting and passing need to improve. No first step. I've got Brown and Tatum blowing him away.

Browns passing and handle need to improve, but his spot up 3 improved already, D is goodish, and has the explosiveness to scare opponents. Worst case, a smart Ricky Davis. That's actually not bad at all, since Ricky's biggest problem was being an idiot.


Marcus' shooting definitely needs improvement, but his passing was much improved last season, especially when IT was out and Marcus was the starting PG.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: jambr380 on August 17, 2017, 11:26:27 PM
So now we are comparing Antoine Walker's career trajectory to Ron Mercer's, Kedrick Brown's, and Delonte West's?  ::)

If the worst of the three guys you have listed only makes three all-star games, then I think we will be in wonderful shape moving forward.

For the record, I will go with Smart - whom I love - but I have really high hopes for Brown and Tatum. Smart's ceiling seems a bit lower than those two.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: hwangjini_1 on August 18, 2017, 12:10:01 AM
In the poll, you need to have "none of the above" as an option.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Eja117 on August 18, 2017, 01:02:38 AM
I picked Marcus but at least he has a good floor.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: CelticsElite on August 18, 2017, 01:10:26 AM
I don't see how smart can disappoint unless he gets a overpaid contract. He is a great roleplayer. Not every player can be an all star. The only player selected before him that's made noise so far is wiggins. Parker has potential  but now majorly injured twice. Embiid major injured twice. Exum majorly injured and still playing summer league I think? . Gordon not overly impressive doesn't pass well.

Like others have said, he has a good floor. He plays an important role (defense) on a team that has the worst defensive rated PG (IT)
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: LatterDayCelticsfan on August 18, 2017, 05:32:56 AM
The one who doesn't pan out I guess.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: TheSundanceKid on August 18, 2017, 05:45:12 AM
Well I guess its subjective. At the moment I don't think any of them will disappoint. I've been pleased with Smart so far but not ecstatic. Brown and Tatum I think will be stars in this league, if they go further then I will be happily surprised! Nothing so far (albeit limited) suggests they won't be.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Greyman on August 18, 2017, 06:35:34 AM
In the poll, you need to have "none of the above" as an option.

I agree with this. I think Smart may ultimately be the one who achieves the least as a Celtic but I believe all of them will have decent careers. Brown and Tatum have more potential to reach all star level.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: hpantazo on August 18, 2017, 09:17:17 AM
In the poll, you need to have "none of the above" as an option.


No, the poll is for the assumption that at least one of them will disappoint.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Erik on August 18, 2017, 09:32:43 AM
Definitely Jayson Tatum. Smart has already panned out. There are a lot of teams right now that smart would be their starting pg. the guy may shoot for Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline. but he's the leader you want and his defense is top tier. Shooting could come later but not crucial for panning out.

Jayson Tatum will be a bust. He has no room in modern NBA, he's too slow/small for ISO on pro level and he has no fit on the Celtics PnR offense. You'll all see soon.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: CelticsJG on August 18, 2017, 12:10:25 PM
Jaylen Brown. Don't think he fully committed to the game of basketball.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Dannys Chipotle Guy on August 18, 2017, 12:21:38 PM
Jaylen Brown. Don't think he fully committed to the game of basketball.
this wont be a popular stance.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: celticsclay on August 18, 2017, 12:26:04 PM
Jaylen Brown. Don't think he fully committed to the game of basketball.

Im confused... he is known for his worth ethic and working out at like 5am right? How could he be more committed?
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Rosco917 on August 18, 2017, 12:37:30 PM
Definitely Jayson Tatum. Smart has already panned out. There are a lot of teams right now that smart would be their starting pg. the guy may shoot for **** but he's the leader you want and his defense is top tier. Shooting could come later but not crucial for panning out.

Jayson Tatum will be a bust. He has no room in modern NBA, he's too slow/small for ISO on pro level and he has no fit on the Celtics PnR offense. You'll all see soon.



I have this good friend, years and years ago while watch a new rock band he made a bold statement to everyone in the surrounding area.

Mark my words, he bellowed... "these guys will go nowhere"

That band was called the Police, we still laugh about his statement today.

Be prepared, you may be wrong.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Sophomore on August 18, 2017, 12:50:20 PM
NONE OF THEM WILL DISAPPOINT!!

THEY ARE ALL BASKETBALL GODS. THEY WILL DUNK FROM THE TOP OF THE KEY, HIT 50% FROM BEHIND THE THREE-POINT LINE, AND BLOCK 8 SHOTS PER GAME.

ALL OF THEM, DO YOU HEAR ME? ALL OF THEM!!!
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Dannys Chipotle Guy on August 18, 2017, 01:04:51 PM
well I dont think any of them will dissapoint me, because if I did think that, I would lower my expectations and then expect them to meet my expectations.

If the blog is putting stock into the Marcus Smart "its a new me" video they will be dissapointed and if anyone thinks Brown is gonna all of a sudden be creating offense left and right, they will be dissapointed.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: liam on August 18, 2017, 01:26:28 PM
NONE OF THEM WILL DISAPPOINT!!

THEY ARE ALL BASKETBALL GODS. THEY WILL DUNK FROM THE TOP OF THE KEY, HIT 50% FROM BEHIND THE THREE-POINT LINE, AND BLOCK 8 SHOTS PER GAME.

ALL OF THEM, DO YOU HEAR ME? ALL OF THEM!!!

I THINK THEY WILL BE MUCH BETTER THAN THAT!!!!
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Granath on August 18, 2017, 02:16:37 PM
Jaylen Brown. Don't think he fully committed to the game of basketball.
this wont be a popular stance.

Nor should it be. Just watch him work in a video like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e24J7Ay7Sc0. That shows a lot of hard work. Even if you think that's somehow a self-serving puff piece, there's still nothing out there to indicate that he's not fully committed. When something like this gets posted, you have to question how was this assumption made.

Is this because he's a smart young man with other interests besides basketball?
Or is this because he's a smart young black man with other interests besides basketball?

There was talk about Brown having worldly distractions prior to the draft and it was quickly squashed because such questions wouldn't have raised about a white player. There was definitely a hint of racism in the whole line of questioning his attitude. I'd hate to think that this  somehow has lingered a year from now. I'll give CelticsJG the benefit of the doubt here but I hope he returns to discuss how he came to his conclusion when this kind of stuff isn't generally raised about a white player.   
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: chilidawg on August 18, 2017, 02:26:35 PM
Kadeem Allen, highly over rated.  What's Ainge thinking wasting a late 2nd on him.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: nickagneta on August 18, 2017, 02:29:03 PM
Marcus Smart. I think both Brown and Tatum will end up as better all around players that start on contender level teams. Smart I think will never get his shooting worked out and remain the defensive, off the bench role player he currently is.

If people are getting hyped about Smart's new fangled shot, I think they are going to be tremendously disappointed in him this year.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: slamtheking on August 18, 2017, 02:58:43 PM
I don't think any of them will but 'disappoint' is a matter of perspective. 

I constantly see the harping on Smart's shooting as a reason for people's personal disappointment in him but the perspective I take is whether the player is as good as those taken within a few slots of where he was taken.  from that perspective, Smart is far from a disappointment.  Too early for Brown and obviously too early for Tatum to be judged.

no option for Rozier?
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Dino Pitino on August 18, 2017, 03:17:54 PM
I think none of them will. We'll go 3 for 3, beginning this very year when all three's big leaps align, Smart blooming in his fourth year, Brown blooming in his second, and Tatum already bloomed as a rookie. This is the year when the draft record debate on Ainge is settled forever to his favor.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: erisred on August 18, 2017, 03:28:03 PM
In the poll, you need to have "none of the above" as an option.
I vote "none of the above", too!
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: ManUp on August 18, 2017, 03:34:28 PM
They will all disappoint because Celtics fans...
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: CelticsJG on August 18, 2017, 04:53:12 PM
Jaylen Brown. Don't think he fully committed to the game of basketball.

Im confused... he is known for his worth ethic and working out at like 5am right? How could he be more committed?

Just think Jaylen has big goals and only using basketball as vehicle(rightfully so). I can honestly see him retiring in his prime to try save world.
Jaylen Brown. Don't think he fully committed to the game of basketball.
this wont be a popular stance.

Nor should it be. Just watch him work in a video like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e24J7Ay7Sc0. That shows a lot of hard work. Even if you think that's somehow a self-serving puff piece, there's still nothing out there to indicate that he's not fully committed. When something like this gets posted, you have to question how was this assumption made.

Is this because he's a smart young man with other interests besides basketball?
Or is this because he's a smart young black man with other interests besides basketball?

There was talk about Brown having worldly distractions prior to the draft and it was quickly squashed because such questions wouldn't have raised about a white player. There was definitely a hint of racism in the whole line of questioning his attitude. I'd hate to think that this  somehow has lingered a year from now. I'll give CelticsJG the benefit of the doubt here but I hope he returns to discuss how he came to his conclusion when this kind of stuff isn't generally raised about a white player.   

Nothing to due with race. Just Jaylen having goals bigger than basketball(very evident in Jaylen African article).

As a black man, I know all about the coded language Jaylen was receiving. So don't play the race card with me.


Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: dweeks7 on August 18, 2017, 06:07:15 PM
First time I have seen anybody say Jason Tatum will disappoint. I actually think he will end up as a 25/10/3 guy for his career. Danny Ainge stated that Tatum shot better than any prospect he has ever worked out or seen work out. He shoots too good to disappoint. He will be good. The only thing I can't predict or get a good feel for is if he will be more Carmelo Anthony or Paul George. If he can make the game easier for his teammates then he will be a star and if not he will be what Carmelo is now. Productive but hollow production if that makes sense. Jaylen Brown is looking more and more like he is going to be a good NBA player.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Erik on August 18, 2017, 06:46:00 PM
First time I have seen anybody say Jason Tatum will disappoint. I actually think he will end up as a 25/10/3 guy for his career. Danny Ainge stated that Tatum shot better than any prospect he has ever worked out or seen work out. He shoots too good to disappoint. He will be good. The only thing I can't predict or get a good feel for is if he will be more Carmelo Anthony or Paul George. If he can make the game easier for his teammates then he will be a star and if not he will be what Carmelo is now. Productive but hollow production if that makes sense. Jaylen Brown is looking more and more like he is going to be a good NBA player.

I believe that Jayson Tatum will be a bust in the NBA. He's too slow to take NBA elite defenders off the dribble and he's too weak to post up anyone of significance. He gets Carmelo Anthony comparisons. Anthony has him outweighed by 35 pounds. What 6'8" forwards do you think Tatum at 205 is going to push around? I know that he's young and has a lot of time to fill out, but it's not exactly easy to put on 35 pounds of muscle (Melo weighed 233 in draft combine), and you don't get that much time in the NBA to prove yourself. If you are average for 2-3 years in the NBA, you lose your confidence and teams will begin to pass you around to the next schmuck who wants to believe that Anthony Bennett has the potential of a #1 pick.

Everything you saw in Summer League is the product of him beating up other slow, wimpy college players and D-league players. Let's see him take Kahwi, LeBron, Butler off the dribble. Because if he plans on being anything close to Carmelo Anthony, he's going to need to be able to beat these guys offensively within the next 2-3 years. You remember that Anthony was a stud his rookie year. By the 4th year, he was already an Allstar. I just don't see it happening. I hope I'm wrong. Sorry for the cold water.

Also, are we really going to pay Hayward and IT max money to watch him take turnaround fadeaways from 18 ft away? None of this draft pick makes any sense to me. Josh Jackson was the pick. We had the best player in the draft at #3 and we Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.ing blew it.

Definitely Jayson Tatum. Smart has already panned out. There are a lot of teams right now that smart would be their starting pg. the guy may shoot for **** but he's the leader you want and his defense is top tier. Shooting could come later but not crucial for panning out.

Jayson Tatum will be a bust. He has no room in modern NBA, he's too slow/small for ISO on pro level and he has no fit on the Celtics PnR offense. You'll all see soon.



I have this good friend, years and years ago while watch a new rock band he made a bold statement to everyone in the surrounding area.

Mark my words, he bellowed... "these guys will go nowhere"

That band was called the Police, we still laugh about his statement today.

Be prepared, you may be wrong.

The key differences being:
1) I have a vested interest as a Celtics fan of being wrong. I hope I am.
2) I don't know any of you guys IRL, so if he turns out to be Michael Jordan, I can just delete my username :)

Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Fan from VT on August 18, 2017, 07:01:33 PM
First time I have seen anybody say Jason Tatum will disappoint. I actually think he will end up as a 25/10/3 guy for his career. Danny Ainge stated that Tatum shot better than any prospect he has ever worked out or seen work out. He shoots too good to disappoint. He will be good. The only thing I can't predict or get a good feel for is if he will be more Carmelo Anthony or Paul George. If he can make the game easier for his teammates then he will be a star and if not he will be what Carmelo is now. Productive but hollow production if that makes sense. Jaylen Brown is looking more and more like he is going to be a good NBA player.

Even if Tatum doesnt disappoint and is a multi allstar he will not be a 25/10/3 career guy. Even rounding up there have been 16 all time 25 ppg scorers: kareem, carmelo, rick barry, kobe, wilkins, malone, petit, gervin, oscar, iverson, west, lebron, durant, baylor, wilt, jordan. Thats it. Of them, only kareem, karl, pettit, wilt, and baylor have 10 rpg.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Granath on August 18, 2017, 07:05:54 PM
Nothing to due with race. Just Jaylen having goals bigger than basketball(very evident in Jaylen African article).

As a black man, I know all about the coded language Jaylen was receiving. So don't play the race card with me.

I'm glad you know all about the coded language. That way you know I didn't play the race card but made [dang] sure it wasn't being played. Because no one is talking about Jeremy Lin being distracted from his NBA game even though he went to Harvard or Ginobli being distracted with speaking 3 languages and being a world ambassador. Of course, just maybe you're not the only person of color here. 

Jaylen does have bigger goals. But he's said nothing about those goals interfering with his preparation for the game. He's also smart enough to know that his best platform for change is to be a star first.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: safecracker on August 18, 2017, 07:15:37 PM
First time I have seen anybody say Jason Tatum will disappoint. I actually think he will end up as a 25/10/3 guy for his career. Danny Ainge stated that Tatum shot better than any prospect he has ever worked out or seen work out. He shoots too good to disappoint. He will be good. The only thing I can't predict or get a good feel for is if he will be more Carmelo Anthony or Paul George. If he can make the game easier for his teammates then he will be a star and if not he will be what Carmelo is now. Productive but hollow production if that makes sense. Jaylen Brown is looking more and more like he is going to be a good NBA player.

I believe that Jayson Tatum will be a bust in the NBA. He's too slow to take NBA elite defenders off the dribble and he's too weak to post up anyone of significance. He gets Carmelo Anthony comparisons. Anthony has him outweighed by 35 pounds. What 6'8" forwards do you think Tatum at 205 is going to push around? I know that he's young and has a lot of time to fill out, but it's not exactly easy to put on 35 pounds of muscle (Melo weighed 233 in draft combine), and you don't get that much time in the NBA to prove yourself. If you are average for 2-3 years in the NBA, you lose your confidence and teams will begin to pass you around to the next schmuck who wants to believe that Anthony Bennett has the potential of a #1 pick.

Everything you saw in Summer League is the product of him beating up other slow, wimpy college players and D-league players. Let's see him take Kahwi, LeBron, Butler off the dribble. Because if he plans on being anything close to Carmelo Anthony, he's going to need to be able to beat these guys offensively within the next 2-3 years. You remember that Anthony was a stud his rookie year. By the 4th year, he was already an Allstar. I just don't see it happening. I hope I'm wrong. Sorry for the cold water.

Also, are we really going to pay Hayward and IT max money to watch him take turnaround fadeaways from 18 ft away? None of this draft pick makes any sense to me. Josh Jackson was the pick. We had the best player in the draft at #3 and we ****ing blew it.

Definitely Jayson Tatum. Smart has already panned out. There are a lot of teams right now that smart would be their starting pg. the guy may shoot for **** but he's the leader you want and his defense is top tier. Shooting could come later but not crucial for panning out.

Jayson Tatum will be a bust. He has no room in modern NBA, he's too slow/small for ISO on pro level and he has no fit on the Celtics PnR offense. You'll all see soon.



I have this good friend, years and years ago while watch a new rock band he made a bold statement to everyone in the surrounding area.

Mark my words, he bellowed... "these guys will go nowhere"

That band was called the Police, we still laugh about his statement today.

Be prepared, you may be wrong.

The key differences being:
1) I have a vested interest as a Celtics fan of being wrong. I hope I am.
2) I don't know any of you guys IRL, so if he turns out to be Michael Jordan, I can just delete my username :)
I kind of share your concerns regarding Tatum. He is skilled alright. He kan make difficult one-legged turnaround shots. Very impressive. But that's also a red flag for me. Why does he have to resort to those difficult shots so often? (check his summer league highlights). I guess part of my scepticism has to do with the fact that I don't like iso ball.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: CelticsElite on August 18, 2017, 07:22:54 PM
Who cares if Tatum takes difficult shots? Does he make them? Yes. The game is to put the ball in the hoop. Tatum can do it in about 40 different ways. Ill take it. If Tatum can be an offensive spark plug off the bench and be a pest defensively, he will be a solid player for our squad. We don't need him to carry our team. Not any time soon
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: nickagneta on August 18, 2017, 08:22:14 PM
First time I have seen anybody say Jason Tatum will disappoint. I actually think he will end up as a 25/10/3 guy for his career. Danny Ainge stated that Tatum shot better than any prospect he has ever worked out or seen work out. He shoots too good to disappoint. He will be good. The only thing I can't predict or get a good feel for is if he will be more Carmelo Anthony or Paul George. If he can make the game easier for his teammates then he will be a star and if not he will be what Carmelo is now. Productive but hollow production if that makes sense. Jaylen Brown is looking more and more like he is going to be a good NBA player.

Even if Tatum doesnt disappoint and is a multi allstar he will not be a 25/10/3 career guy. Even rounding up there have been 16 all time 25 ppg scorers: kareem, carmelo, rick barry, kobe, wilkins, malone, petit, gervin, oscar, iverson, west, lebron, durant, baylor, wilt, jordan. Thats it. Of them, only kareem, karl, pettit, wilt, and baylor have 10 rpg.
I think Tatum is a heck of a player but 25/10/3 stats for his career is just ridiculous. I could definitely see him becoming a 20+ PPG for some years but 25 per game for his career probably means a lot of years around 30 PPG which just isn't happening.

Neither is 10 RPG for his career. He has not shown that ability. I will be happy if he averages 6 for his career and has some years where he gets 8 a game
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: CelticsJG on August 18, 2017, 10:35:00 PM
Nothing to due with race. Just Jaylen having goals bigger than basketball(very evident in Jaylen African article).

As a black man, I know all about the coded language Jaylen was receiving. So don't play the race card with me.

I'm glad you know all about the coded language. That way you know I didn't play the race card but made [dang] sure it wasn't being played. Because no one is talking about Jeremy Lin being distracted from his NBA game even though he went to Harvard or Ginobli being distracted with speaking 3 languages and being a world ambassador. Of course, just maybe you're not the only person of color here. 

Jaylen does have bigger goals. But he's said nothing about those goals interfering with his preparation for the game. He's also smart enough to know that his best platform for change is to be a star first.

Man you implied it with your whole "I am going him the benefit of the doubt".

Jaylen haven't said anything directly but he been implying it and giving off vibes that basketball vehicle to his goal. Wouldn't surprise me if Jaylen retired from the NBA when his 28 years old. Just don't Jaylen have  the love for the game that is needed to be great.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: gouki88 on August 18, 2017, 11:36:46 PM
First time I have seen anybody say Jason Tatum will disappoint. I actually think he will end up as a 25/10/3 guy for his career. Danny Ainge stated that Tatum shot better than any prospect he has ever worked out or seen work out. He shoots too good to disappoint. He will be good. The only thing I can't predict or get a good feel for is if he will be more Carmelo Anthony or Paul George. If he can make the game easier for his teammates then he will be a star and if not he will be what Carmelo is now. Productive but hollow production if that makes sense. Jaylen Brown is looking more and more like he is going to be a good NBA player.

Even if Tatum doesnt disappoint and is a multi allstar he will not be a 25/10/3 career guy. Even rounding up there have been 16 all time 25 ppg scorers: kareem, carmelo, rick barry, kobe, wilkins, malone, petit, gervin, oscar, iverson, west, lebron, durant, baylor, wilt, jordan. Thats it. Of them, only kareem, karl, pettit, wilt, and baylor have 10 rpg.
I think Tatum is a heck of a player but 25/10/3 stats for his career is just ridiculous. I could definitely see him becoming a 20+ PPG for some years but 25 per game for his career probably means a lot of years around 30 PPG which just isn't happening.

Neither is 10 RPG for his career. He has not shown that ability. I will be happy if he averages 6 for his career and has some years where he gets 8 a game
Yeah, 25/10/3 are insane career stats.

Karl Malone averaged 25/10/3.6, and frankly I don't quite see JT as being the next Karl Malone.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: IDreamCeltics on August 19, 2017, 10:05:22 AM
Unfortunately the poll doesn't allow for more than one vote, but there's good evidence at this point that both Smart and Brown will disappoint.  Both were drafted based on physical tools and profile and neither has been able to develop actual NBA level basketball skills yet.

I doubt Smart will ever develop an NBA shot - he just hasn't made any improvement in this area...  At this point his ceiling is Bruce Bowen 2.0 and he's not even there yet...  He's still so far away from realizing his best offense is going to come from just camping out in the corners

Jaylen still has a long way to go to have Terrence Ross level basketball skills.  His Summer League disappearing act this year was extremely disappointing - but what's probably more disturbing is that his best position is the most crowded position on the team... He'll be competing for playing time with a solid NBA starter, an NBA veteran, a Max-contract star, and ANOTHER #3 overall pick who already established offensive superiority in Summer league.     

Tatum already has NBA skills, I see him showing better than both Smart and Brown by the end of the season.

Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on August 19, 2017, 10:14:24 AM
I'd vote NONE.

I see that Marcus got the most votes here and I get that.

"Offense sells the most tickets", I guess.

But "DEFENSE wins Championships", and Marcus is NOW our primary defender along with Jae now that AB is in DET.

Marcus Smart is our Utility player...our Swiss Army knife....he can do a LOT of other things well that oftentimes don't end up in the box scores.

He "Impacts Winning" (see my sig 8))
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: billysan on August 19, 2017, 12:18:34 PM
Antoine walker  made near max money at 14 million per for a few years. He carried this team when Paul pierce was a youngster. I don't think this is a fair comment to him.

None of them will be failures. Maybe smart doesn't make an all star team but all will have 10 year plus careers as rotation level players at minimum. Can't call that disappointment when others are putting the label of bust or too high expectations on them. Nobody said they would be Lebron or kobe.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: CELTICSofBOSTON on August 19, 2017, 12:22:28 PM
If anyone thinks Marcus Smart is going to be an all-star, they will be dissapointed. 
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: dweeks7 on August 19, 2017, 02:05:15 PM
Unfortunately the poll doesn't allow for more than one vote, but there's good evidence at this point that both Smart and Brown will disappoint.  Both were drafted based on physical tools and profile and neither has been able to develop actual NBA level basketball skills yet.

I doubt Smart will ever develop an NBA shot - he just hasn't made any improvement in this area...  At this point his ceiling is Bruce Bowen 2.0 and he's not even there yet...  He's still so far away from realizing his best offense is going to come from just camping out in the corners

Jaylen still has a long way to go to have Terrence Ross level basketball skills.  His Summer League disappearing act this year was extremely disappointing - but what's probably more disturbing is that his best position is the most crowded position on the team... He'll be competing for playing time with a solid NBA starter, an NBA veteran, a Max-contract star, and ANOTHER #3 overall pick who already established offensive superiority in Summer league.     

Tatum already has NBA skills, I see him showing better than both Smart and Brown by the end of the season.

I think Brown is going to be a solid 15/7 guy with great defense. That's not a disappointment. Brown has shown flashes of being a really good NBA player. As for the summer disappearing act, he came out his first game and hung 29 and 13. Then they tried him as the ball handler and playmaker which did not go as well. I think he surprises a lot of people this year.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: mqtcelticsfan on August 19, 2017, 02:30:30 PM
It definitely depends on what your expectations are for each player. I think if you're expecting Smart or Brown to become All Stars they're both likely to disappoint. However, I think Jaylen could become a solid starter for a contender, and Smart could still grow into a solid role player. I think Tatum has the lowest floor of the bunch, because if he can't create his own shot consistently he's in big trouble. However, I think he's more likely to reach his ceiling than the other two.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: bellerephon on August 19, 2017, 05:51:34 PM
Antoine walker  made near max money at 14 million per for a few years. He carried this team when Paul pierce was a youngster. I don't think this is a fair comment to him.

I agree this is unfair to Toine. He had flaws as a player, no doubt, but he was an above average player for his career, and pretty darn good when he was at his best. Not being as good as a future hall of famer is hardly something to be ashamed of. Walker loved being a Celtic, played hard all game every game, and wanted to win. I'm not ignoring his flaws, but I want to give him his due as well.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: loco_91 on August 19, 2017, 10:04:05 PM
In a sense, Marcus has already disappointed. He's good, a starting-caliber player due to his elite defense, but his offense is clearly worse than expected. He could have been much better based on his college + rookie year production.

But I picked Jaylen, mostly because expectations for him are higher. Most fans probably still think Jaylen has a chance to be a star, but frankly it's not likely he'll be better than Smart. He showed in SL that he cannot handle a high usage, and he isn't nearly as good as Smart on defense. He might still be a solid 2-way player similar to or a little worse than Jae Crowder, but most fans will find this disappointing.

Tatum is the least likely to disappoint. He's a stud.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: CelticsElite on August 19, 2017, 10:23:01 PM
In a sense, Marcus has already disappointed. He's good, a starting-caliber player due to his elite defense, but his offense is clearly worse than expected. He could have been much better based on his college + rookie year production.

But I picked Jaylen, mostly because expectations for him are higher. Most fans probably still think Jaylen has a chance to be a star, but frankly it's not likely he'll be better than Smart. He showed in SL that he cannot handle a high usage, and he isn't nearly as good as Smart on defense. He might still be a solid 2-way player similar to or a little worse than Jae Crowder, but most fans will find this disappointing.

Tatum is the least likely to disappoint. He's a stud.
I get what you're saying but smart is pretty much what he was advertised as.  the good thing is we get josh Jackson  who looks like a bigger Marcus smart
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: nickagneta on August 19, 2017, 11:50:20 PM
In a sense, Marcus has already disappointed. He's good, a starting-caliber player due to his elite defense, but his offense is clearly worse than expected. He could have been much better based on his college + rookie year production.

But I picked Jaylen, mostly because expectations for him are higher. Most fans probably still think Jaylen has a chance to be a star, but frankly it's not likely he'll be better than Smart. He showed in SL that he cannot handle a high usage, and he isn't nearly as good as Smart on defense. He might still be a solid 2-way player similar to or a little worse than Jae Crowder, but most fans will find this disappointing.

Tatum is the least likely to disappoint. He's a stud.
Its hard to compare a player with two leagues of experience that has shown disappointing shooting to a player that has not played a game. We kinda know who Marcus is unless he suddenly becomes a good shooter. Tatum is an open book with blank pages.

Marcus could become a better shooter and show his worth to the team, which would be huge. No doubt. But is that realistic after three historically bad shooting years? Tatum, on the other hand, has a blank page to write his story. He has tons of potential and only this year will determine where he is.

Personally, I think Tatum will average about 20 MPG and get about 10 PPG and 5 RPG, and I will be thrilled with that
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Surferdad on August 20, 2017, 06:24:25 AM
In a sense, Marcus has already disappointed. He's good, a starting-caliber player due to his elite defense, but his offense is clearly worse than expected. He could have been much better based on his college + rookie year production.

But I picked Jaylen, mostly because expectations for him are higher. Most fans probably still think Jaylen has a chance to be a star, but frankly it's not likely he'll be better than Smart. He showed in SL that he cannot handle a high usage, and he isn't nearly as good as Smart on defense. He might still be a solid 2-way player similar to or a little worse than Jae Crowder, but most fans will find this disappointing.

Tatum is the least likely to disappoint. He's a stud.
I mostly agree with your post, we know who Smart is now, but disagree with the highlighted bit.  I still do believe that Jaylen will end up as a better pro than Smart.  He has better tools overall and clearly is not afraid of heading right to rim (unlike Smart).  His defense will improve but he probably won't ever be better than Smart in that category.  Jaylen could even make an ASG or two.  My current comp for Jaylen is Richard Jefferson in terms of overall success in this league.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Celtics4ever on August 20, 2017, 10:05:08 AM
Quote
Tatum is the least likely to disappoint. He's a stud.

I think this assessment is the correct one.   He plays the most even of what we have seen but has to prove it against NBA guys.   But grading him against the up and down Brown, in performance in the SL and Smart what we have seen thus far, I too would choose Tatum.

I do think Tatum needs to work out on his body.   He is too lean.   But this kid can shoot well from about anywhere.   One can't say that of the other team.  Brown is more an athlete and Smart is a hustle guy.   Tatum is a basketball player.

I worry about Brown's uneven play and Marcus's shot.  I do not worry about  Tatum as much because I think strength is one of the easiest things to develop.  Consistency and a shot are both mental as much as physical talents.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: positivitize on August 20, 2017, 11:21:26 AM
I was really surprised when I clicked on this topic and it wasn't created by everyone's favorite Lar_Bar33.

RIP Lar.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on August 20, 2017, 11:48:03 AM
Fultz has the body type to do a Sully.


Brown for US

Smart already has my heart .
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: CelticsJG on August 20, 2017, 11:59:31 AM
Smart is who he is until proven otherwise.

Brown clearly a player that been relying on his athleticism his whole life. So his potential is determined by how fast he can learn NBA skills and develop some type of feel for the game.

Tatum path to stardom much more clear. Develop the body and become a much more efficient scorer.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: bellerephon on August 22, 2017, 11:38:31 AM
I suppose it depends on what you mean by disappoint and what your expectations are for each player. Smart is already a quality NBA player but not an all-star level player, nor do I think he is likely to become one unless he can improve his shooting. If you were expecting him to be an all-star you might find him disappointing. If your expectations were more measured, then you might not. Brown has done better than many expected in his first year, but there is still a lot of growing to do, the jury is still out. In a way you could make a case that Tatum is the most likely to disappoint precisely because the expectations are so high. If he becomes a pretty good, but not special player many would be quite disappointed.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: GratefulCs on August 22, 2017, 12:15:36 PM
I was really surprised when I clicked on this topic and it wasn't created by everyone's favorite Lar_Bar33.

RIP Lar.
#embiidforprez
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Moranis on August 22, 2017, 12:40:45 PM
I sadly think all 3 end up worse then their draft position, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be, so it is hard to disappoint from that perspective so I voted for Brown and Tatum. 
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on August 22, 2017, 01:05:08 PM
I sadly think all 3 end up worse then their draft position, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be, so it is hard to disappoint from that perspective so I voted for Brown and Tatum.

Why would you think Brown and Tatum will disappoint?  And why "sadly," if you aren't a Celtics fan?
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Donoghus on August 22, 2017, 01:10:38 PM
I can see Brown becoming the new lightning rod on these boards this season if he struggles out of the game.

Based on what I've seen out of Tatum so far, I don't see him disappointing except for those posters who have agendas to grind.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Moranis on August 22, 2017, 01:32:40 PM
I sadly think all 3 end up worse then their draft position, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be, so it is hard to disappoint from that perspective so I voted for Brown and Tatum.

Why would you think Brown and Tatum will disappoint?  And why "sadly," if you aren't a Celtics fan?
sadly because I'd rather have them all end up better than their draft position.  I figured that was obvious.

I think both Brown and Tatum will be surpassed as players drafted after them as well as them not pass the 2 players taken ahead of them.  That means they would fail to live up to their draft position and as such would be disappointments.  Smart already has been passed up by multiple players and probably goes no better than 10 in a re-draft.  That is a failure for a 6th pick, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: CelticsElite on August 22, 2017, 01:59:40 PM
I sadly think all 3 end up worse then their draft position, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be, so it is hard to disappoint from that perspective so I voted for Brown and Tatum.

Why would you think Brown and Tatum will disappoint?  And why "sadly," if you aren't a Celtics fan?
sadly because I'd rather have them all end up better than their draft position.  I figured that was obvious.

I think both Brown and Tatum will be surpassed as players drafted after them as well as them not pass the 2 players taken ahead of them.  That means they would fail to live up to their draft position and as such would be disappointments.  Smart already has been passed up by multiple players and probably goes no better than 10 in a re-draft.  That is a failure for a 6th pick, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be.
I'm not sure I would consider it a failure. I see a failure as a darko type of flop.
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: BitterJim on August 22, 2017, 02:51:06 PM
I sadly think all 3 end up worse then their draft position, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be, so it is hard to disappoint from that perspective so I voted for Brown and Tatum.

Why would you think Brown and Tatum will disappoint?  And why "sadly," if you aren't a Celtics fan?
sadly because I'd rather have them all end up better than their draft position.  I figured that was obvious.

I think both Brown and Tatum will be surpassed as players drafted after them as well as them not pass the 2 players taken ahead of them.  That means they would fail to live up to their draft position and as such would be disappointments.  Smart already has been passed up by multiple players and probably goes no better than 10 in a re-draft.  That is a failure for a 6th pick, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be.
I'm not sure I would consider it a failure. I see a failure as a darko type of flop.

Agreed.  Hakeem Olajuwon is generally considered the 2nd best player from the 1984 draft, but that doesn't make him a "disappointment"
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: Moranis on August 22, 2017, 03:25:58 PM
I sadly think all 3 end up worse then their draft position, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be, so it is hard to disappoint from that perspective so I voted for Brown and Tatum.

Why would you think Brown and Tatum will disappoint?  And why "sadly," if you aren't a Celtics fan?
sadly because I'd rather have them all end up better than their draft position.  I figured that was obvious.

I think both Brown and Tatum will be surpassed as players drafted after them as well as them not pass the 2 players taken ahead of them.  That means they would fail to live up to their draft position and as such would be disappointments.  Smart already has been passed up by multiple players and probably goes no better than 10 in a re-draft.  That is a failure for a 6th pick, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be.
I'm not sure I would consider it a failure. I see a failure as a darko type of flop.

Agreed.  Hakeem Olajuwon is generally considered the 2nd best player from the 1984 draft, but that doesn't make him a "disappointment"
Now you are talking extreme examples, but in a redraft I suspect Houston doesn't take Hakeem 1st.  So with the 1st pick they didn't get the best player from the draft so on some level that is a disappointment or failure or whatever you want to call it.  Again extreme example given just how good Hakeem ended up, but he quite simply wasn't as good as Jordan. 
Title: Re: Which of our top level prospects will end up to disappoint long-term?
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on August 22, 2017, 05:25:03 PM
I sadly think all 3 end up worse then their draft position, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be, so it is hard to disappoint from that perspective so I voted for Brown and Tatum.

Why would you think Brown and Tatum will disappoint?  And why "sadly," if you aren't a Celtics fan?
sadly because I'd rather have them all end up better than their draft position.  I figured that was obvious.

I think both Brown and Tatum will be surpassed as players drafted after them as well as them not pass the 2 players taken ahead of them.  That means they would fail to live up to their draft position and as such would be disappointments.  Smart already has been passed up by multiple players and probably goes no better than 10 in a re-draft.  That is a failure for a 6th pick, but Smart is exactly the player he was advertised to be.
I'm not sure I would consider it a failure. I see a failure as a darko type of flop.

Agreed.  Hakeem Olajuwon is generally considered the 2nd best player from the 1984 draft, but that doesn't make him a "disappointment"
Now you are talking extreme examples, but in a redraft I suspect Houston doesn't take Hakeem 1st.  So with the 1st pick they didn't get the best player from the draft so on some level that is a disappointment or failure or whatever you want to call it.  Again extreme example given just how good Hakeem ended up, but he quite simply wasn't as good as Jordan.

Same will be said of LeBron.  That MJ was somethin else, man.