CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: CelticsElite on August 15, 2017, 09:26:00 AM
-
Quote found in the middle of article: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/20343088/lebron-future-impacts-cavaliers-kyrie-irving-trades
"Boston has expressed interest in Irving and could offer the best combination of short-term (Isaiah Thomas and Jae Crowder) and long-term (Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, picks) assets. The Celtics have made no formal offer, and it is against Boston's front-office DNA to push out front with the most generous offer. Boston knows that Cleveland is mostly intrigued with Tatum, but the sides have not formally discussed that deal, league sources said."
Well we like Tatum too :D
-
I get the need to send out IT (PG for PG) but adding anything more than a very late 1st or a couple of second rounders to the deal would be enough to not make this worth it. not enough difference in talent to justify paying more. Certainly not Crowder and/or a top young prospect
Cleveland can go pound sand. Let them implode from bad team chemistry this year.
-
Sounds like a kicking the tires type situation. Still seriously doubt Cleveland would trade him here unless it was an absolute last resort.
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
-
Unless we flip Irving for someone like AD, it doesn't make any sense. Ainge would never do IT and Tatum for Irving.
There's no way Kyrie and Isaiah could play together.
Unless it was a three-team trade, I don't see it. And I don't believe Cleveland would help facilitate us getting supreme talent in any way.
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
I could honestly see LeBron taking Kyrie all series to prove a point, and shut him down.
We've all seen what LeBron can do when extra-motivated, imagine what he's gonna do to Kyrie if he's wearing green?
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
I could honestly see LeBron taking Kyrie all series to prove a point, and shut him down.
We've all seen what LeBron can do when extra-motivated, imagine what he's gonna do to Kyrie if he's wearing green?
LeBron can't move laterally like he used to. Irving would literally abuse him. There is no way James can stay in front of him.
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
you can't be seriuos...
IT for Kyrie would be great, and that's one of the best offers that the cavs would be able to facilitate in this position.
Giving the #1 pick and a superstar for a superstar...well you can see that it doesn't add up, at all.
-
this doesn't make much sense to me as the Cavs are crumbling, i am unsure if this is a sure thing, but it does look like Irving is on his way out and even if he is not, the rumors circling that LeBron is leaving again to join his friends does make our future look very bright with our 2 first rounders in Brown and Tatum.
We should be able to take the East as soon as this season as is if the Cavs implode or next season if the Cavs break it up again because LeBron takes his talents out of Cleveland again
-
Unless we flip Irving for someone like AD, it doesn't make any sense. Ainge would never do IT and Tatum for Irving.
There's no way Kyrie and Isaiah could play together.
Unless it was a three-team trade, I don't see it. And I don't believe Cleveland would help facilitate us getting supreme talent in any way.
I'm not completely convinced this is true. And that's why I'd be very intrigued in Tatum, Smart, and Morris for Kyrie. I haven't sold myself on it yet, mostly because I don't want to play against Smart in the playoffs. But that's what I'd look at.
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
Dear god please no. Our most dynamic offensive player + our most offensively gifted rookie in ages for Kyrie? Danny surely wouldn't even think about it.
-
There just isn't a trade that makes sense for both sides here, it's futility.
IT and a recent top pick for Irving is just silly. The article actually goes further suggesting IT, Crowder and Tatum/Brown which is absolute madness. That's approaching an AD type haul which Irving as a player is not worthy of and neither is his contract with only 2 years left.
It's insanity even considering these trades that come up, at least I have the faith that Ainge won't be considering anything like this..
-
Unless we flip Irving for someone like AD, it doesn't make any sense. Ainge would never do IT and Tatum for Irving.
There's no way Kyrie and Isaiah could play together.
Unless it was a three-team trade, I don't see it. And I don't believe Cleveland would help facilitate us getting supreme talent in any way.
I'm not completely convinced this is true. And that's why I'd be very intrigued in Tatum, Smart, and Morris for Kyrie. I haven't sold myself on it yet, mostly because I don't want to play against Smart in the playoffs. But that's what I'd look at.
Good back-courts would abuse us on the defensive end, but on the other end of the court what back-court can match the offensive dynamism of IT and Kyrie.
I still don't see any deal that benefits us.
-
Given the recent trade returns for superstars, that price seems ridiculous.
-
No, no, and more no...If Kyrie is not happy playing along side LeBron and with participating in 3 straight NBA Finals, he won't be happy here. Trading an playoff-injury-prone malcontent for someone (Tatum) who will hopefully be a cornerstone for the Celtics in years to come would be a disappointment.
-
IT and Irving are basically equivalent talents.
Why would we throw in a top 3(Tatum/Brown) pick to make it happen?
Crowder and a celtics 1st is the max I would do.
-
DO NOT TRADE TATUM!!
Can it be said any clearer.
-
IT and Irving are basically equivalent talents.
Why would we throw in a top 3(Tatum/Brown) pick to make it happen?
Crowder and a celtics 1st is the max I would do.
I agree, that would be it.
-
I don't see a deal happening, where Boston gets Irving. It's not that I wouldn't want Irving. Unfortunately, it seems that Boston is in a position where having young talented players (Brown and Tatum) and high draft picks, is proving to be a double edge sword. On one hand, it would seem Boston should be able to package a competitive offer for any player on the trade market. In some instances, where an A list player is on the trade market, the Celtics seem like a team that can pay a premium too. However, we seem to be finding this is not the case after all. From the offers that have been rumored for players in the past, the Boston offers seem reasonable in regards to the value of the player that would be coming back. However, when it comes to talking about those A list players that Boston desires, it seems like those teams want a teams best trade package. Unfortunately for Boston, that package includes Brown, Tatum, the Nets 2018 pick and the 76ers pick. For Cleveland, they may ask for 3 out of those 4 assets. Another team may not have anywhere near the talent options, but Cleveland would be happier dealing with that other team knowing they received that teams best trade package.
-
Well, they could be interested all the want, but they are not getting Jayson Tatum.
Isiah Thomas, Jae Crowder and another salary filler should be a good enough offer. In fact, I don't know if they can get an offer better than that, unless they get Josh Jackson from Phoenix.
Whatt'ya say, Cleveland?
-
No, no, and more no...If Kyrie is not happy playing along side LeBron and with participating in 3 straight NBA Finals, he won't be happy here.
I don't think it's as simple as that. Imagine playing with a guy who, while perhaps the best player on the planet, thinks he's also better than everyone else in every other way. A guy who thinks he's the funniest, coolest, toughest guy in the room, but in reality he's a Edited. Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline..
A guy who gets special treatment from ownership, management, and the coaching staff. Who has an overinflated ego and feels like he's always right and can criticize you at any time, yet you aren't allowed to criticize him.
Yeah, that would be a really fun environment.
-
Say there is a trade for Irving that doesn't involve Thomas (hypothetically as I am not sure there is) but then we could trade IT to the Knicks for Porzingis. We would have a very good young team with Irving as the leader.
The trick is to make the Irving trade work. Hard to see how it could work unless Horford was involved (Horford and Rozier for Irving and Frye maybe?). Smart, Morris, and Tatum were suggested. Does the salary even work for that trade (I guess it does)? Taht does not seem to help CLE win now all that much. If you know we could get Porzingis for IT, would you be willing to trade Horford? (I know, I know, no FA would ever sign with us again if we traded Horford but I don't buy that trading him to Cleveland would be such a bad thing for him).
-
Unless we flip Irving for someone like AD, it doesn't make any sense. Ainge would never do IT and Tatum for Irving.
There's no way Kyrie and Isaiah could play together.
Unless it was a three-team trade, I don't see it. And I don't believe Cleveland would help facilitate us getting supreme talent in any way.
I'm not completely convinced this is true. And that's why I'd be very intrigued in Tatum, Smart, and Morris for Kyrie. I haven't sold myself on it yet, mostly because I don't want to play against Smart in the playoffs. But that's what I'd look at.
Good back-courts would abuse us on the defensive end, but on the other end of the court what back-court can match the offensive dynamism of IT and Kyrie.
I still don't see any deal that benefits us.
I don't really either, but pairing IT/Kyrie is the closest. You'd need to have faith that Stevens could coach Irving into being a non-liability. He has the physical attributes to at least be passable on D, so while unlikely, it isn't impossible. We probably could afford to resign IT next season as well, because we'd ship out $12 million in 2018-2019 salary.
Trading IT and Tatum and "filler" (which we don't have much of that isn't useful) is a terrible deal, so hopefully Ainge isn't looking at that avenue.
-
Heck no.
I wouldn't trade a bag of chips for Irving. He'd rather get stats than win (trade demand), he's a locker room cancer (didn't talk with his teammates during the playoffs) and he's as dumb as a box of rocks (flat-earther).
-
Barf. Irving ain't bad but don't we already have a big-scoring, no defense PG already??
-
Well, they could be interested all the want, but they are not getting Jayson Tatum.
Isiah Thomas, Jae Crowder and another salary filler should be a good enough offer. In fact, I don't know if they can get an offer better than that, unless they get Josh Jackson from Phoenix.
Whatt'ya say, Cleveland?
Josh Jackson isn't headed anywhere, Phoenix front office would get lynched.
Fans get sick of teams hyping up their young draft picks and "young talent" only to see them traded for whatever disgruntled "superstar" hits the market. It's like getting a nice present on Christmas and then your mom trading it out for your brother's gift from two Christmases ago.
Suns fans could not stomach watching their team suck all year just so they could get Kyrie Irving for possibly two years..
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
You could think about IT4 for Irving straight up.
You can't think about IT4 plus Tatum. That is insane.
You lost your GM privileges for a month, TB.
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
you can't be seriuos...
IT for Kyrie would be great, and that's one of the best offers that the cavs would be able to facilitate in this position.
Giving the #1 pick and a superstar for a superstar...well you can see that it doesn't add up, at all.
Irving is better than IT4...
He has been to the finals 3 times now and won a ring. He is younger. Better defender. Better stats (not by alot but still).
Plus you have him for another season.... (Could trade him etc)
Cavs say no to a Irving and IT4 1 on 1 swap
Maybe instead of adding tatum
IT4, Crowder, Rozier and a 2018 lakers or nets pick (whichever is best) could do the trick
This thing is dragging out like crazy.... Cavs have no way out and Celts might be the only trading partner left....
The more I think about it, doesnt make sense the Suns trading for Irving. Not in line to contend
Horford
Morris
Hayward
Smart/Brown
Irving
This unit looks like it can win a championship
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
you can't be seriuos...
IT for Kyrie would be great, and that's one of the best offers that the cavs would be able to facilitate in this position.
Giving the #1 pick and a superstar for a superstar...well you can see that it doesn't add up, at all.
Irving is better than IT4...
He has been to the finals 3 times now and won a ring. He is younger. Better defender. Better stats (not by alot but still).
Plus you have him for another season.... (Could trade him etc)
Cavs say no to a Irving and IT4 1 on 1 swap
Maybe instead of adding tatum
IT4, Crowder, Rozier and a 2018 lakers or nets pick (whichever is best) could do the trick
This thing is dragging out like crazy.... Cavs have no way out and Celts might be the only trading partner left....
The more I think about it, doesnt make sense the Suns trading for Irving. Not in line to contend
Horford
Morris
Hayward
Smart/Brown
Irving
This unit looks like it can win a championship
Really? Pffft, that team probably can't make it out of the East.
Trading the 2018 Nets pick? That could be Bagley or Porter?? what the heck??
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
You could think about IT4 for Irving straight up.
You can't think about IT4 plus Tatum. That is insane.
You lost your GM privileges for a month, TB.
Take off your celts homer , lets rip off other teams hat
How is IT4 for Irving 1 to 1 trade fair?
-
There just isn't a trade that makes sense for both sides here, it's futility.
I agree. I just can't come up with anything that works logically. Too big of a bid-ask spread. They're not going to want what we're going to offer, and we're not going to offer what they want.
It's insanity even considering these trades that come up, at least I have the faith that Ainge won't be considering anything like this..
As the old CB saying goes, "It's not insanity. It's just August."
Mike
-
There just isn't a trade that makes sense for both sides here, it's futility.
I agree. I just can't come up with anything that works logically. Too big of a bid-ask spread. They're not going to want what we're going to offer, and we're not going to offer what they want.
It's insanity even considering these trades that come up, at least I have the faith that Ainge won't be considering anything like this..
As the old CB saying goes, "It's not insanity. It's just August."
Mike
Exactly. Woj just trying to make "news" by throwing wild speculation out there. Click bait..
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
you can't be seriuos...
IT for Kyrie would be great, and that's one of the best offers that the cavs would be able to facilitate in this position.
Giving the #1 pick and a superstar for a superstar...well you can see that it doesn't add up, at all.
Irving is better than IT4...
He has been to the finals 3 times now and won a ring. He is younger. Better defender. Better stats (not by alot but still).
Plus you have him for another season.... (Could trade him etc)
Cavs say no to a Irving and IT4 1 on 1 swap
Maybe instead of adding tatum
IT4, Crowder, Rozier and a 2018 lakers or nets pick (whichever is best) could do the trick
This thing is dragging out like crazy.... Cavs have no way out and Celts might be the only trading partner left....
The more I think about it, doesnt make sense the Suns trading for Irving. Not in line to contend
Horford
Morris
Hayward
Smart/Brown
Irving
This unit looks like it can win a championship
Really? Pffft, that team probably can't make it out of the East.
Trading the 2018 Nets pick? That could be Bagley or Porter?? what the heck??
The key word is maybe...
Greedy for the future... I dont blame you
But would love to bring in Kyrie
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
you can't be seriuos...
IT for Kyrie would be great, and that's one of the best offers that the cavs would be able to facilitate in this position.
Giving the #1 pick and a superstar for a superstar...well you can see that it doesn't add up, at all.
Irving is better than IT4...
He has been to the finals 3 times now and won a ring. He is younger. Better defender. Better stats (not by alot but still).
Plus you have him for another season.... (Could trade him etc)
Cavs say no to a Irving and IT4 1 on 1 swap
Maybe instead of adding tatum
IT4, Crowder, Rozier and a 2018 lakers or nets pick (whichever is best) could do the trick
This thing is dragging out like crazy.... Cavs have no way out and Celts might be the only trading partner left....
The more I think about it, doesnt make sense the Suns trading for Irving. Not in line to contend
Horford
Morris
Hayward
Smart/Brown
Irving
This unit looks like it can win a championship
Really? Pffft, that team probably can't make it out of the East.
Trading the 2018 Nets pick? That could be Bagley or Porter?? what the heck??
The key word is maybe...
Greedy for the future... I dont blame you
But would love to bring in Kyrie
Realistically think about it. What would happen if Danny traded the pick that ended up being Marvin Bagley for Kyrie freaking Irving. LOL. He'd be roasted and put on the next train out of town. The "maybe" is likely enough to preclude moving the pick..
-
"Have been hearing teams don't have a sense on Cavs' timeline for a Kyrie deal. Cs and Cavs have remained in discussions."
https://mobile.twitter.com/adamhimmelsbach/status/897453088692248576
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
You could think about IT4 for Irving straight up.
You can't think about IT4 plus Tatum. That is insane.
You lost your GM privileges for a month, TB.
Take off your celts homer , lets rip off other teams hat
How is IT4 for Irving 1 to 1 trade fair?
Pretty close. The problem is the salaries don't match up enough. I believe that Irving has some higher value (talent, contract, age) but not a gap equivalent to Tatum or Crowder+Rozier. Plus CLE is win now so Tatum isn't what they are looking for anyway. I just don't see a deal here. It is CLE that needs it not us so why would we reach?
-
Woj doesn't have any good Celtics sources, that has been evident in the past. Whatever he's hearing is from other teams. My guess is Cleveland is putting out this rumor to try to get Phoenix to give up Jackson along with Bledsoe
-
With two max guys already on the roster, and most likely a third after next season with Thomas, the Celtics need to hold onto their young talent to help with the salary cap (Brown, Tatum, 2018 draft picks). I don't see Danny or ownership, having any desire to trade any of those young assets.
I believe the best package the Celtics could offer is still Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and the Celtics 2018 own first round draft pick. Having said that, I'm not sure if Boston would even do that deal. Trading Thomas would be very difficult, as Thomas has built up so much good will amongst the fans, teammates and ownership. As discussed, there isn't much of a statistical difference between Thomas and Irving, so I think intangibles have to play a factor, which is where I believe Thomas clearly has the edge. Also, Crowder is a strong role player that most playoff teams need (who also helps with the salary cap issue)
When it comes to evaluating Irving, I don't think you can rely on statistics to measure him against Thomas. Were Thomas' numbers over inflated because Boston had no other reliable #1 or #2 scoring option? Were Irving's numbers under inflated because he was playing with go to scorers and elite passers in LeBron and Love? When it comes to evaluating who is a max player, I wouldn't hesitate to give Irving one of those contracts. However, I still do have concerns about giving one to Thomas.
Danny and Brad are in a tough spot. I believe Irving is the better player, and the Celtics have the assets available to make a trade. However, do the ends justify the means?
-
Not just no, but HELLLLLLL no!
-
Tatum and IT4 contract fillers for Irving...but no future picks
Need to think about it
Irving will go off against the cavs in the ecf
You could think about IT4 for Irving straight up.
You can't think about IT4 plus Tatum. That is insane.
You lost your GM privileges for a month, TB.
Take off your celts homer , lets rip off other teams hat
How is IT4 for Irving 1 to 1 trade fair?
Why would what's "fair" affect anything here? No concept of fairness enters trade discussions.
The market is the market. What we need to do is beat the next best offer and/or meet the Cavs' asking price.
Given what other superstars (Butler, Cousins, George) have been fetching in return, there's little reason to think that a disgruntled Kyrie Irving would fetch both an All-NBA player, another player or two and a top-3 pick in a strong draft. I just don't see it.
I mean, rumor has it that the Suns will offer Bledsoe and Bender (but not Jackson). That absolutely pales in comparison to IT/Tatum.
-
No way I would trade Tatum, It would be like trading a Paul Pierce before he even played a game for the Celtics.
I'm not even ready to trade Crowder and IT for Irving. Unless the C's know something about Thomas health that we don't know.
The Cavs must be fielding some offers around the NBA, hence the quiet before the storm. Let them make their own mistakes.
-
No way I would trade Tatum, It would be like trading a Paul Pierce before he even played a game for the Celtics.
I'm not even ready to trade Crowder and IT for Irving. Unless the C's know something about Thomas health that we don't know.
The Cavs must be fielding some offers around the NBA, hence the quiet before the storm. Let them make their own mistakes.
The guy turned 19 just 5 months ago. He's got it all to be great, including a great work ethic. IMO, he will be far better than Brown.
I'll cut loose with a Brown package, but not Tatum.
-
Really don't wanna give up Tatum for Kyrie. I can't see the Kyrie-IT backcourt working either.
If we're getting Kyrie, we gotta give up IT. But then that's an all star for an all star. I'd give up guys like Rozier and idk how else to make salaries work without giving up Crowder, Smart, JB pen Tatum. I wouldn't throw in any picks either.
-
Not just no, but HELLLLLLL no!
Build from what we have we. We will have 5 Lottery picks after 19 or 20. ANd IT, Heyward and Holford.
Stay the course and hope for a KG type Injury to a Warrior and we win.
Let KI go to PHX, IMO.
-
My answer is no.
The ends do not justify the means. Irving is a great scorer but he's not thaaat much better than IT to justify trading an All NBA caliber player AND a good role player (on a great value contract) and a legit blue chip prospect. That is madness.
Also, while people focus on the scoring aspect, the intangibles aspect needs to be evaluated as well. IT is the heart of this team. He is a legitimate leader and has endeared himself with the city and fans that it would legitimately be a massive blow to the moral and chemistry of this team. I'm not sure what to make of Irving. It seems incredibly self centered to not talk to teammates in the middle of a playoff run and to want to get out of the shadow of the best player of his generation.
Also, with Irving, we're going to be in the exact same spot we are with IT now in 2 years: having to decide to give a Max contract to a guard that will take him into his thirties. If we are going to do that, why not just give it to IT and keep all the cost controlled assets instead of giving them up for Irving?
-
Not comfortable throwing Cleveland a lifeline...just let them implode.
-
I'm not a proponent of replacing IT with him, but if we could move him for someone else, I'd do it.
He may not be the greatest or fill a need, but he's definitely a star. He's on a good contract and we would definitely be able to use other assets to get a PF/C for the future.
But I really don't see how we can make salaries work and not overpay.
-
LOL...CAVS DREAM ON .....about Tatum ......thats CBS ....pride and joy prize .....the gift from the Nets that will destroy their dreams for the next 10 years.
Hayward and Tatum got a locker if nobody else does.
-
Not just no, but HELLLLLLL no!
correct answer ..tp
-
I suspect any Celtics interest in Irving would be connected with their ability to sign IT long term to a max. Or their inability, I should say. They will have a tough time adding a 3rd star to a max contract. Irving has a friendlier contract. What is it? $18-20M per for the next 2 or 3 years.They would have an easier time fitting Irving under or near the cap than IT.
As for Tatum, I don't know what Ainge would think about that. They have to match salaries, and IT plus Crowder fits. IT plus Tatum would probably come close, too. Tatum has more protected years, but he's more of an unknown than Crowder, though he may have greater offensive upside. It depends on what Ainge and Stevens think.
Keep in mind they may well lose IT after next year if they don't deal him--if he insists on a max contract.
-
Boston might have the best package, but CLE doesn't want to help Boston get better. Mostly b/c they will play each other in the ECF. If Lebron loses to Boston in the playoffs, he might be more likely to change locales (though I do think Lebron will retire as a Cav).
I think Denver is a good spot for Kyrie. Any type of combo including Garry Harris/Mudiay/Jamal Murray/Faried/Barton/Hernangomez/Trey Lyles + picks could get this done. Cleveland improves their bench and overall roster, and won't have to spend a ton, allowing them to somehow pull of a trade/signing for another top player willing to play in CLE with Lebron.
I think Dallas makes sense. Dennis Smith and non-Dirk change. Cuban clearly doesn't want to lose games and bottom out.
Sacramento, Minnesota, SAS, and LAC all seem like good fits for Kyrie.
They are also all in the West. If I was running CLE, I wouldn't trade Irving to the East, b/c I don't think we have seen his top gear yet. Hate to see the guy get to the next level against you in the playoffs.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
-
Boston might have the best package, but CLE doesn't want to help Boston get better. Mostly b/c they will play each other in the ECF. If Lebron loses to Boston in the playoffs, he might be more likely to change locales (though I do think Lebron will retire as a Cab.)
I think Denver is a good spot for Kyrie. Any type of combo including Garry Harris/Mudiay/Jamal Murray/Faried/Barton/Hernangomez/Trey Lyles + picks could get this done. Cleveland improves their bench and overall roster, and won't have to spend a ton, allowing them to somehow pull of a trade/signing for another top player willing to play in CLE with Lebron.
I think Dallas makes sense. Dennis Smith and non-Dirk change. Cuban clearly doesn't want to lose games and bottom out.
Sacramento, Minnesota, SAS, and LAC all seem like good fits for Kyrie.
They are also all in the West. If I was running CLE, I wouldn't trade Irving to the East, b/c I don't think we have seen his top gear yet. Hate to see the guy get to the next level against you in the playoffs.
The whole point of the rumor is that the Cavs aren't going to make a trade with keeping LeBron in mind. If LeBron told the Cavs, "yeah, I'm in if you make X move", then that would be the trade that gets made. But LeBron wants to keep his options open, reportedly. That's perfectly reasonable for him, but accordingly the Cavs are going to make the trade they feel gives them the most value long-term, since LeBron might leave no matter what. If that's with the Celtics, so be it. Their goal is to not have a complete teardown like the last time LeBron left, but to continue to field a competive team, hopefully infused with some younger talent.
Now, as many have said, ultimately a deal with the Celtics doesn't seem to make much sense. Even if one concedes that Irving is an upgrade over IT (which is a highly debatable point), he's not much of an upgrade. Adding in a recent top 3 pick like Brown or Tatum is a huge addition in price. And even adding one of those with IT still isn't enough in outgoing salary, so you'd need to add in still another player, who would either be a rotation-level vet or an additional prospect on a rookie deal (or even two such players, depending how much said players make and whether or not Kyrie waived his trade kicker). The alternative is pairing IT and Kyrie, but that's a gamble in its own right.
If a deal between the Celtics and Cavs doesn't happen, I doubt it will be because the teams are afraid to trade with one another. It will be due to the fact that the Celtics can't match Kyrie's salary in a way that gives the Cavs what they're looking for without being a massive overpay.
-
If it cane down to it... Who would you rather give up. Brown or tatum?
-
If it cane down to it... Who would you rather give up. Brown or tatum?
Brown, but most likely I wouldn't unload either of them.
-
Woj doesn't have any good Celtics sources, that has been evident in the past. Whatever he's hearing is from other teams. My guess is Cleveland is putting out this rumor to try to get Phoenix to give up Jackson along with Bledsoe
This^
The only sensible way it makes any sense for Danny to be involved in an Irving trade is possibly as a 3rd-party facilitator -- which is something he likes to do.
But no direct trade scenario makes any sense. This smells very much like spin put out by CLE to try to bump the price.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
I'd do that, even though it might hurt this year.
The idea of moving both IT and Tatum is a non-starter though.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
That's because you're Moranis. Others would prefer to not have a brain dead, locker room cancer loser on the team.
-
I suspect any Celtics interest in Irving would be connected with their ability to sign IT long term to a max. Or their inability, I should say. They will have a tough time adding a 3rd star to a max contract. Irving has a friendlier contract. What is it? $18-20M per for the next 2 or 3 years.They would have an easier time fitting Irving under or near the cap than IT.
Let's be clear, even if we give IT an absolute max-value, full 5-year contract, Irving will cost more over the next 6 years.
In fact, he will cost more in 5 of the 6 years. And he will cost more in total just to cover the next two years.
Irving would be only be cheaper in year 2 from now (the year IT would be in the first year of his new contract). Because after that, then Irving would jump back up above him in cost with his _own_ new max contract.
So can we please stop with the "friendlier contract" mythology? Irving's contract doesn't present any real-world advantage over Thomas'. In either case, we will be over the cap from now on. In either case we will go over the tax in year 2. The only difference is that we'd be over by a lesser amount in year 2 but then over by a lot more in subsequent years.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
I'd do that, even though it might hurt this year.
The idea of moving both IT and Tatum is a non-starter though.
Talent-wise, we're on top in this deal. Will be a tough sell though.
However, I don't think we can put a credible starting lineup with Thomas, Irving AND Hayward. Someone has to play defense.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
I'd do that, even though it might hurt this year.
The idea of moving both IT and Tatum is a non-starter though.
Talent-wise, we're on top in this deal. Will be a tough sell though.
However, I don't think we can put a credible starting lineup with Thomas, Irving AND Hayward. Someone has to play defense.
Are you insinuating Hayward can't play D?
Please elaborate.
-
I suspect any Celtics interest in Irving would be connected with their ability to sign IT long term to a max. Or their inability, I should say. They will have a tough time adding a 3rd star to a max contract. Irving has a friendlier contract. What is it? $18-20M per for the next 2 or 3 years.They would have an easier time fitting Irving under or near the cap than IT.
Let's be clear, even if we give IT an absolute max-value, full 5-year contract, Irving will cost more over the next 6 years.
In fact, he will cost more in 5 of the 6 years. And he will cost more in total just to cover the next two years.
Irving would be only be cheaper in year 2 from now (the year IT would be in the first year of his new contract). Because after that, then Irving would jump back up above him in cost with his _own_ new max contract.
So can we please stop with the "friendlier contract" mythology? Irving's contract doesn't present any real-world advantage over Thomas'. In either case, we will be over the cap from now on. In either case we will go over the tax in year 2. The only difference is that we'd be over by a lesser amount in year 2 but then over by a lot more in subsequent years.
I think people see Irving as a more legitimate max-level player than IT due to his age and height advantage. The team-friendly terminology also refers to next year when we are going to plow through the tax penalty by a wide margin. Having Irving instead of a $30M+ IT would allow an extra year to work through the logistics. Heck, even Horford will be eligible to opt out of his contract after that year. It also may allow us to keep Smart.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
I'd do that, even though it might hurt this year.
The idea of moving both IT and Tatum is a non-starter though.
Talent-wise, we're on top in this deal. Will be a tough sell though.
However, I don't think we can put a credible starting lineup with Thomas, Irving AND Hayward. Someone has to play defense.
Are you insinuating Hayward can't play D?
Please elaborate.
he is lol
-
No way Cleveland trading Irving to Boston
-
I suspect any Celtics interest in Irving would be connected with their ability to sign IT long term to a max. Or their inability, I should say. They will have a tough time adding a 3rd star to a max contract. Irving has a friendlier contract. What is it? $18-20M per for the next 2 or 3 years.They would have an easier time fitting Irving under or near the cap than IT.
Let's be clear, even if we give IT an absolute max-value, full 5-year contract, Irving will cost more over the next 6 years.
In fact, he will cost more in 5 of the 6 years. And he will cost more in total just to cover the next two years.
Irving would be only be cheaper in year 2 from now (the year IT would be in the first year of his new contract). Because after that, then Irving would jump back up above him in cost with his _own_ new max contract.
So can we please stop with the "friendlier contract" mythology? Irving's contract doesn't present any real-world advantage over Thomas'. In either case, we will be over the cap from now on. In either case we will go over the tax in year 2. The only difference is that we'd be over by a lesser amount in year 2 but then over by a lot more in subsequent years.
I think people see Irving as a more legitimate max-level player than IT due to his age and height advantage. The team-friendly terminology also refers to next year when we are going to plow through the tax penalty by a wide margin. Having Irving instead of a $30M+ IT would allow an extra year to work through the logistics. Heck, even Horford will be eligible to opt out of his contract after that year. It also may allow us to keep Smart.
Are you sure about that? We have to match salaries, and since we don't have any bad contracts, we are giving away good players on good deals. Unless we are gonna fill the roster with even more rookies, we aren't saving all that much. Lose Crowder in the deal, who replaces him? Vet min has-been? Two-way player?
Also, Brad is big on character and sometimes personalities just matter. IT is a perfect fit for this team and Irving is a questionable teammate, at best.
I will not endorse a trade for Kyrie unless it's part of a three-team deal in which we get someone to play alongside IT. You guys can harp on years and inches and dollars all you want, but when it comes to wins and losses, IT is right there with Kyrie (and some stats would suggest he is better). Many like to irgnore the LBJ factor and how much pressure he takes off Irving. When LeBron DNP's, the Cavs are terrible.
-
Woj stopped dropping truth-bombs and settled for dropping Woj-bombs a long time ago...
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
That's because you're Moranis. Others would prefer to not have a brain dead, locker room cancer loser on the team.
It's hard to take some you seriously when you make comments like this. Irving is a lot things, but he's a 4-time All-Star who's still just 25 years old. Is it questionable he wants to leave a winner? Possibly, but we don't know all of the behind the scenes machinations at work in Cleveland. Or maybe - just maybe - he's tired of being at the mercy of Lebron's whims. Right now, Cleveland is a winner but Lebron can torpedo that in a year. He's done it before.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
That's because you're Moranis. Others would prefer to not have a brain dead, locker room cancer loser on the team.
It's hard to take some you seriously when you make comments like this. Irving is a lot things, but he's a 4-time All-Star who's still just 25 years old. Is it questionable he wants to leave a winner? Possibly, but we don't know all of the behind the scenes machinations at work in Cleveland. Or maybe - just maybe - he's tired of being at the mercy of Lebron's whims. Right now, Cleveland is a winner but Lebron can torpedo that in a year. He's done it before.
In all fairness, this is the same guy that said the earth is flat and didn't talk to teammates for two straight practices during the playoffs. It may be harsh and hyperbole, but it's not far off.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
I'd do that, even though it might hurt this year.
The idea of moving both IT and Tatum is a non-starter though.
Talent-wise, we're on top in this deal. Will be a tough sell though.
However, I don't think we can put a credible starting lineup with Thomas, Irving AND Hayward. Someone has to play defense.
what are you talking about Thomas is getting traded in the deal for Irving that I proposed and that Roy commented on.
-
I suspect any Celtics interest in Irving would be connected with their ability to sign IT long term to a max. Or their inability, I should say. They will have a tough time adding a 3rd star to a max contract. Irving has a friendlier contract. What is it? $18-20M per for the next 2 or 3 years.They would have an easier time fitting Irving under or near the cap than IT.
Let's be clear, even if we give IT an absolute max-value, full 5-year contract, Irving will cost more over the next 6 years.
In fact, he will cost more in 5 of the 6 years. And he will cost more in total just to cover the next two years.
Irving would be only be cheaper in year 2 from now (the year IT would be in the first year of his new contract). Because after that, then Irving would jump back up above him in cost with his _own_ new max contract.
So can we please stop with the "friendlier contract" mythology? Irving's contract doesn't present any real-world advantage over Thomas'. In either case, we will be over the cap from now on. In either case we will go over the tax in year 2. The only difference is that we'd be over by a lesser amount in year 2 but then over by a lot more in subsequent years.
I think people see Irving as a more legitimate max-level player than IT due to his age and height advantage. The team-friendly terminology also refers to next year when we are going to plow through the tax penalty by a wide margin. Having Irving instead of a $30M+ IT would allow an extra year to work through the logistics. Heck, even Horford will be eligible to opt out of his contract after that year. It also may allow us to keep Smart.
Are you sure about that? We have to match salaries, and since we don't have any bad contracts, we are giving away good players on good deals. Unless we are gonna fill the roster with even more rookies, we aren't saving all that much. Lose Crowder in the deal, who replaces him? Vet min has-been? Two-way player?
Also, Brad is big on character and sometimes personalities just matter. IT is a perfect fit for this team and Irving is a questionable teammate, at best.
I will not endorse a trade for Kyrie unless it's part of a three-team deal in which we get someone to play alongside IT. You guys can harp on years and inches and dollars all you want, but when it comes to wins and losses, IT is right there with Kyrie (and some stats would suggest he is better). Many like to irgnore the LBJ factor and how much pressure he takes off Irving. When LeBron DNP's, the Cavs are terrible.
A lot of the Cavs terribleness without James is their general lack of a game plan and a roster constructed around James.
Swapping Irving for Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st (say around pick 25) would save Boston in the neighborhood of 25 million next year, which would allow Boston to keep Smart (who is most definitely gone next year if Thomas is brought back). It also most likely keeps Boston out of the luxury tax next year. In addition, Irving is a much better fit with the timeline of Brown, Tatum, BKN, LAL picks as he is a good deal younger than Thomas and most would project him to have a longer prime than Thomas (on account of Thomas' small size). Irving is also the best player in that trade. I mean the poll on this blog shows a heavy tilt to Irving and this is the one place that would lean towards Thomas.
-
I suspect any Celtics interest in Irving would be connected with their ability to sign IT long term to a max. Or their inability, I should say. They will have a tough time adding a 3rd star to a max contract. Irving has a friendlier contract. What is it? $18-20M per for the next 2 or 3 years.They would have an easier time fitting Irving under or near the cap than IT.
Let's be clear, even if we give IT an absolute max-value, full 5-year contract, Irving will cost more over the next 6 years.
In fact, he will cost more in 5 of the 6 years. And he will cost more in total just to cover the next two years.
Irving would be only be cheaper in year 2 from now (the year IT would be in the first year of his new contract). Because after that, then Irving would jump back up above him in cost with his _own_ new max contract.
So can we please stop with the "friendlier contract" mythology? Irving's contract doesn't present any real-world advantage over Thomas'. In either case, we will be over the cap from now on. In either case we will go over the tax in year 2. The only difference is that we'd be over by a lesser amount in year 2 but then over by a lot more in subsequent years.
I think people see Irving as a more legitimate max-level player than IT due to his age and height advantage. The team-friendly terminology also refers to next year when we are going to plow through the tax penalty by a wide margin. Having Irving instead of a $30M+ IT would allow an extra year to work through the logistics. Heck, even Horford will be eligible to opt out of his contract after that year. It also may allow us to keep Smart.
Whether Irving is "a more legitimate max-level player than IT" is a completely separate discussion and definitely a debatable assertion.
As I said, the only difference is in how much over the tax threshold we go in 2018-19. This is _not_ going to effect whether we sign Smart or not. If Wyc is not willing to go into the tax to sign Smart, then the fact that he'd have less tax penalty for doing so for one year isn't going to affect that decision. Because he'd still have to pay it on the years going forward.
Horford, at his age is almost certainly not going to opt out of his contract in '19-20. So we will be over the tax threshold that year whether with IT on the second year of his new contract or with Irving on the first year of an even more expensive new contract.
The first chance to drop back below the tax threshold would be 2020-21, after Horford's contract expires. But you also have to re-sign Jaylen that year and if you just signed Irving to a new contract your margin is reduced by how much more he makes than Thomas would have been making. If another team offers Jaylen a max offer sheet, you could be right back over the tax.
-
I suspect any Celtics interest in Irving would be connected with their ability to sign IT long term to a max. Or their inability, I should say. They will have a tough time adding a 3rd star to a max contract. Irving has a friendlier contract. What is it? $18-20M per for the next 2 or 3 years.They would have an easier time fitting Irving under or near the cap than IT.
Let's be clear, even if we give IT an absolute max-value, full 5-year contract, Irving will cost more over the next 6 years.
In fact, he will cost more in 5 of the 6 years. And he will cost more in total just to cover the next two years.
Irving would be only be cheaper in year 2 from now (the year IT would be in the first year of his new contract). Because after that, then Irving would jump back up above him in cost with his _own_ new max contract.
So can we please stop with the "friendlier contract" mythology? Irving's contract doesn't present any real-world advantage over Thomas'. In either case, we will be over the cap from now on. In either case we will go over the tax in year 2. The only difference is that we'd be over by a lesser amount in year 2 but then over by a lot more in subsequent years.
I think people see Irving as a more legitimate max-level player than IT due to his age and height advantage. The team-friendly terminology also refers to next year when we are going to plow through the tax penalty by a wide margin. Having Irving instead of a $30M+ IT would allow an extra year to work through the logistics. Heck, even Horford will be eligible to opt out of his contract after that year. It also may allow us to keep Smart.
Are you sure about that? We have to match salaries, and since we don't have any bad contracts, we are giving away good players on good deals. Unless we are gonna fill the roster with even more rookies, we aren't saving all that much. Lose Crowder in the deal, who replaces him? Vet min has-been? Two-way player?
Also, Brad is big on character and sometimes personalities just matter. IT is a perfect fit for this team and Irving is a questionable teammate, at best.
I will not endorse a trade for Kyrie unless it's part of a three-team deal in which we get someone to play alongside IT. You guys can harp on years and inches and dollars all you want, but when it comes to wins and losses, IT is right there with Kyrie (and some stats would suggest he is better). Many like to irgnore the LBJ factor and how much pressure he takes off Irving. When LeBron DNP's, the Cavs are terrible.
A lot of the Cavs terribleness without James is their general lack of a game plan and a roster constructed around James.
Swapping Irving for Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st (say around pick 25) would save Boston in the neighborhood of 25 million next year, which would allow Boston to keep Smart (who is most definitely gone next year if Thomas is brought back). It also most likely keeps Boston out of the luxury tax next year. In addition, Irving is a much better fit with the timeline of Brown, Tatum, BKN, LAL picks as he is a good deal younger than Thomas and most would project him to have a longer prime than Thomas (on account of Thomas' small size). Irving is also the best player in that trade. I mean the poll on this blog shows a heavy tilt to Irving and this is the one place that would lean towards Thomas.
How are you replacing Crowder? Our biggest asset this year is depth and how we can play big/small depending on what Brad wants to do. Anyone who thinks he is a significant upgrade over IT is wrong. Yes he's younger, but we don't need younger. We needs rookies to learn from quality vets, what team other than GSW grew their young guys together into a dynasty? Every other template mixes all-star vets with talented youth. That's what Ainge is presumably going for.
If Kyrie will be making roughly $23M next year, how much are we paying Smart and who are we replacing Crowder/Rozier with to stay below the tax while staying amongst the elite? We take a giant step back to maybe stay under the tax threshold for another season? Or do you think Kyrie for IT/Crowder/Rozier/pick makes us better?
I'm here to win now. I like our horses. I don't care what the polls say on a site with the most negative fan base there probably is. For every green-glassed fan on here, we have a Debbie Downer who just likes to play devils advocate believing the grass is always greener. IT is too small. Horford's the worst contract in NBA. Hayward can't play D/he's no George. Lakers are gonna win 50. Brad uses too many lineups. Ainge is too gunshy. Wyc & co are too cheap. This site is hardly that biased FOR the Celtics.
-
Unless we flip Irving for someone like AD, it doesn't make any sense. Ainge would never do IT and Tatum for Irving.
There's no way Kyrie and Isaiah could play together.
Unless it was a three-team trade, I don't see it. And I don't believe Cleveland would help facilitate us getting supreme talent in any way.
I'm not completely convinced this is true. And that's why I'd be very intrigued in Tatum, Smart, and Morris for Kyrie. I haven't sold myself on it yet, mostly because I don't want to play against Smart in the playoffs. But that's what I'd look at.
Good back-courts would abuse us on the defensive end, but on the other end of the court what back-court can match the offensive dynamism of IT and Kyrie.
I still don't see any deal that benefits us.
Are Kyrie and IT that much worse defensively than Steph+Klay?
They're worse, but not by much.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
That's because you're Moranis. Others would prefer to not have a brain dead, locker room cancer loser on the team.
It's hard to take some you seriously when you make comments like this. Irving is a lot things, but he's a 4-time All-Star who's still just 25 years old. Is it questionable he wants to leave a winner? Possibly, but we don't know all of the behind the scenes machinations at work in Cleveland. Or maybe - just maybe - he's tired of being at the mercy of Lebron's whims. Right now, Cleveland is a winner but Lebron can torpedo that in a year. He's done it before.
In all fairness, this is the same guy that said the earth is flat and didn't talk to teammates for two straight practices during the playoffs. It may be harsh and hyperbole, but it's not far off.
.
1. Irving was trolling with that earth is flat thing. The fact that people still don't see that is hysterical. Alternative facts, indeed.
2. Again, that's one side of the story. Interesting that him not speaking to teammates only came to light after his trade request became public.
-
Ceitics with Kyrie at point are better.
Trading Tatum isn't going to happen...is it? Looks like he might be legit.
The Kyrie v IT swap is a Celtics win, but not by much.
I have no idea why Cavs would value IT + Crowder and some non or late lottery first round pick for their starting NBA finals point guard.
They don't have to trade him and they are back in finals next year with him...dumb move.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
That's because you're Moranis. Others would prefer to not have a brain dead, locker room cancer loser on the team.
It's hard to take some you seriously when you make comments like this. Irving is a lot things, but he's a 4-time All-Star who's still just 25 years old. Is it questionable he wants to leave a winner? Possibly, but we don't know all of the behind the scenes machinations at work in Cleveland. Or maybe - just maybe - he's tired of being at the mercy of Lebron's whims. Right now, Cleveland is a winner but Lebron can torpedo that in a year. He's done it before.
In all fairness, this is the same guy that said the earth is flat and didn't talk to teammates for two straight practices during the playoffs. It may be harsh and hyperbole, but it's not far off.
.
1. Irving was trolling with that earth is flat thing. The fact that people still don't see that is hysterical. Alternative facts, indeed.
2. Again, that's one side of the story. Interesting that him not speaking to teammates only came to light after his trade request became public.
1.Was he trolling by saying we didn't land on the moon, Jamaican assassins killed JFK and aliens live among us? Either he's constantly trolling or he's an utter moron. Neither is a good thing.
2. Have you heard any of his teammates sticking up for him? No? That silence says everything you need to know. Sometimes there is only one story.
3. He'd rather be "the man" than win, hence the trade demand. Have you heard of another guy who wants to leave Lebron, who is known as one of the best teammates in the league?
I never said he wasn't talented. But he's lazy on defense and that attitude carries both on and off the court. I've never been impressed with Irving's demeanor or his drive to win. If a guy like that isn't committed now, what happens when he gets $150m?
He's just someone who should only ever see the visitor's side of a locker room in the Garden...to be candid, I'd rather have Cousins than Irving. At least Cousins generally gives his all on the floor.
-
Unless we flip Irving for someone like AD, it doesn't make any sense. Ainge would never do IT and Tatum for Irving.
There's no way Kyrie and Isaiah could play together.
Unless it was a three-team trade, I don't see it. And I don't believe Cleveland would help facilitate us getting supreme talent in any way.
I'm not completely convinced this is true. And that's why I'd be very intrigued in Tatum, Smart, and Morris for Kyrie. I haven't sold myself on it yet, mostly because I don't want to play against Smart in the playoffs. But that's what I'd look at.
Good back-courts would abuse us on the defensive end, but on the other end of the court what back-court can match the offensive dynamism of IT and Kyrie.
I still don't see any deal that benefits us.
Are Kyrie and IT that much worse defensively than Steph+Klay?
They're worse, but not by much.
Quite easily worse. Klay is a plus defender, whereas nobody else in that group is. That tips the scales heavily.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
I'd do that, even though it might hurt this year.
Not me...not only would it hurt us a lot this year, it helps Cleveland a lot and balances that team.
Cleveland becomes a lot stronger/deeper this year and IT AND Crowder and Rozier could make LeBaby stay.
On top of that, trading the guy H and H came here to play with in IT?
Bad, Bad juju.
No thanks.
-
I suspect any Celtics interest in Irving would be connected with their ability to sign IT long term to a max. Or their inability, I should say. They will have a tough time adding a 3rd star to a max contract. Irving has a friendlier contract. What is it? $18-20M per for the next 2 or 3 years.They would have an easier time fitting Irving under or near the cap than IT.
Let's be clear, even if we give IT an absolute max-value, full 5-year contract, Irving will cost more over the next 6 years.
In fact, he will cost more in 5 of the 6 years. And he will cost more in total just to cover the next two years.
Irving would be only be cheaper in year 2 from now (the year IT would be in the first year of his new contract). Because after that, then Irving would jump back up above him in cost with his _own_ new max contract.
So can we please stop with the "friendlier contract" mythology? Irving's contract doesn't present any real-world advantage over Thomas'. In either case, we will be over the cap from now on. In either case we will go over the tax in year 2. The only difference is that we'd be over by a lesser amount in year 2 but then over by a lot more in subsequent years.
I think people see Irving as a more legitimate max-level player than IT due to his age and height advantage. The team-friendly terminology also refers to next year when we are going to plow through the tax penalty by a wide margin. Having Irving instead of a $30M+ IT would allow an extra year to work through the logistics. Heck, even Horford will be eligible to opt out of his contract after that year. It also may allow us to keep Smart.
Are you sure about that? We have to match salaries, and since we don't have any bad contracts, we are giving away good players on good deals. Unless we are gonna fill the roster with even more rookies, we aren't saving all that much. Lose Crowder in the deal, who replaces him? Vet min has-been? Two-way player?
Also, Brad is big on character and sometimes personalities just matter. IT is a perfect fit for this team and Irving is a questionable teammate, at best.
I will not endorse a trade for Kyrie unless it's part of a three-team deal in which we get someone to play alongside IT. You guys can harp on years and inches and dollars all you want, but when it comes to wins and losses, IT is right there with Kyrie (and some stats would suggest he is better). Many like to irgnore the LBJ factor and how much pressure he takes off Irving. When LeBron DNP's, the Cavs are terrible.
A lot of the Cavs terribleness without James is their general lack of a game plan and a roster constructed around James.
Swapping Irving for Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st (say around pick 25) would save Boston in the neighborhood of 25 million next year, which would allow Boston to keep Smart (who is most definitely gone next year if Thomas is brought back). It also most likely keeps Boston out of the luxury tax next year. In addition, Irving is a much better fit with the timeline of Brown, Tatum, BKN, LAL picks as he is a good deal younger than Thomas and most would project him to have a longer prime than Thomas (on account of Thomas' small size). Irving is also the best player in that trade. I mean the poll on this blog shows a heavy tilt to Irving and this is the one place that would lean towards Thomas.
How are you replacing Crowder? Our biggest asset this year is depth and how we can play big/small depending on what Brad wants to do. Anyone who thinks he is a significant upgrade over IT is wrong. Yes he's younger, but we don't need younger. We needs rookies to learn from quality vets, what team other than GSW grew their young guys together into a dynasty? Every other template mixes all-star vets with talented youth. That's what Ainge is presumably going for.
If Kyrie will be making roughly $23M next year, how much are we paying Smart and who are we replacing Crowder/Rozier with to stay below the tax while staying amongst the elite? We take a giant step back to maybe stay under the tax threshold for another season? Or do you think Kyrie for IT/Crowder/Rozier/pick makes us better?
I'm here to win now. I like our horses. I don't care what the polls say on a site with the most negative fan base there probably is. For every green-glassed fan on here, we have a Debbie Downer who just likes to play devils advocate believing the grass is always greener. IT is too small. Horford's the worst contract in NBA. Hayward can't play D/he's no George. Lakers are gonna win 50. Brad uses too many lineups. Ainge is too gunshy. Wyc & co are too cheap. This site is hardly that biased FOR the Celtics.
Boston isn't winning a title this year, so what does any extra depth this year actually matter for? As for who is going to replace a bench SF, my guess is Tatum. Morris and Brown will fill some of those minutes as well. Essentially you'd be looking at a playoff rotation this year of Irving, Brown, Hayward, Morris, Horford, Smart, Tatum, and Baynes. Next year Boston will add at least 1 top level rookie and maybe 2 and would likely be able to keep Smart with having Irving at 8 million or so less than Thomas, plus no Crowder, Rozier, or the late 1st salaries on the books.
The way to win a title is to either build around the young players/assets or trade those players/assets for guys that can actually make Boston a legit contender. It isn't just do nothing and hope it all works out as the team is already starting to lose players for salary reasons, and that is only going to continue with the current status quo because the Celtics aren't going to pay the luxury tax for a non-contender, especially for 3 straight seasons to hit the repeater tax level just in time for the young guys to maybe be ready.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
That's because you're Moranis. Others would prefer to not have a brain dead, locker room cancer loser on the team.
It's hard to take some you seriously when you make comments like this. Irving is a lot things, but he's a 4-time All-Star who's still just 25 years old. Is it questionable he wants to leave a winner? Possibly, but we don't know all of the behind the scenes machinations at work in Cleveland. Or maybe - just maybe - he's tired of being at the mercy of Lebron's whims. Right now, Cleveland is a winner but Lebron can torpedo that in a year. He's done it before.
In all fairness, this is the same guy that said the earth is flat and didn't talk to teammates for two straight practices during the playoffs. It may be harsh and hyperbole, but it's not far off.
.
1. Irving was trolling with that earth is flat thing. The fact that people still don't see that is hysterical. Alternative facts, indeed.
2. Again, that's one side of the story. Interesting that him not speaking to teammates only came to light after his trade request became public.
1.Was he trolling by saying we didn't land on the moon, Jamaican assassins killed JFK and aliens live among us? Either he's constantly trolling or he's an utter moron. Neither is a good thing.
2. Have you heard any of his teammates sticking up for him? No? That silence says everything you need to know. Sometimes there is only one story.
3. He'd rather be "the man" than win, hence the trade demand. Have you heard of another guy who wants to leave Lebron, who is known as one of the best teammates in the league?
I never said he wasn't talented. But he's lazy on defense and that attitude carries both on and off the court. I've never been impressed with Irving's demeanor or his drive to win. If a guy like that isn't committed now, what happens when he gets $150m?
He's just someone who should only ever see the visitor's side of a locker room in the Garden...to be candid, I'd rather have Cousins than Irving. At least Cousins generally gives his all on the floor.
1. Yes. He is always trolling because morons on the internet keep falling for it.
2. His teammates know he is gone and don't want to alienate James. They know who butters the goose in Cleveland.
3. He doesn't want to be the man. He wants to be away from James and out of Cleveland. That is obvious by looking at the 4 teams he put on his list i.e. Minnesota (clearly behind Butler and probably Towns this year let alone going forward and that is a team with solid management and a well respected coach), San Antonio (clearly behind Leonard and the most stable organization in the NBA), Miami (clearly the man, but aside from San An is the most stable organization in the sport), and New York (his home town so a bit different than the other 3). Irving just doesn't want to play with James and can't stand the dysfunction that is the Cavs management. Remember he wasn't the one who leaked his trade request to the press and thus he wasn't the one controlling that narrative. After winning the title, James was apparently pushing the Cavs to trade Irving for Chris Paul (a title the Cavs don't win without Irving). Maybe just maybe that soured the relationship, which worsened over the entirety of last season culminating with Irving asking out at the end of the season maybe even after Griffin was let go (a GM that was genuinely liked and well respected by everyone on the Cavs and around the NBA). If he really wanted to be the man, he wouldn't have put San Antonio and Minnesota on his list. That tells you that wasn't why Irving asked out.
-
Maybe the morons are the ones who think Irving is trolling. In the context it certainly didn't look as though Irving wasn't 100% serious when he said that stuff. There was no humor in it. I don't see the point of saying that stuff without some kind of humor. I think the stuff he said is just so ridiculous that some people have to file it the "he can't be serious" category. To me it seemed like he was serious. The second coming of Carl Everett.
-
I've been saying since his demand broke that Thomas, Crowder, Rozier, and Boston's 1st for Irving makes a lot of sense for both teams. I doubt it happens but would be reasonable
That's because you're Moranis. Others would prefer to not have a brain dead, locker room cancer loser on the team.
It's hard to take some you seriously when you make comments like this. Irving is a lot things, but he's a 4-time All-Star who's still just 25 years old. Is it questionable he wants to leave a winner? Possibly, but we don't know all of the behind the scenes machinations at work in Cleveland. Or maybe - just maybe - he's tired of being at the mercy of Lebron's whims. Right now, Cleveland is a winner but Lebron can torpedo that in a year. He's done it before.
In all fairness, this is the same guy that said the earth is flat and didn't talk to teammates for two straight practices during the playoffs. It may be harsh and hyperbole, but it's not far off.
.
1. Irving was trolling with that earth is flat thing. The fact that people still don't see that is hysterical. Alternative facts, indeed.
2. Again, that's one side of the story. Interesting that him not speaking to teammates only came to light after his trade request became public.
1.Was he trolling by saying we didn't land on the moon, Jamaican assassins killed JFK and aliens live among us? Either he's constantly trolling or he's an utter moron. Neither is a good thing.
2. Have you heard any of his teammates sticking up for him? No? That silence says everything you need to know. Sometimes there is only one story.
3. He'd rather be "the man" than win, hence the trade demand. Have you heard of another guy who wants to leave Lebron, who is known as one of the best teammates in the league?
I never said he wasn't talented. But he's lazy on defense and that attitude carries both on and off the court. I've never been impressed with Irving's demeanor or his drive to win. If a guy like that isn't committed now, what happens when he gets $150m?
He's just someone who should only ever see the visitor's side of a locker room in the Garden...to be candid, I'd rather have Cousins than Irving. At least Cousins generally gives his all on the floor.
1. Yes. He is always trolling because morons on the internet keep falling for it.
2. His teammates know he is gone and don't want to alienate James. They know who butters the goose in Cleveland.
3. He doesn't want to be the man. He wants to be away from James and out of Cleveland. That is obvious by looking at the 4 teams he put on his list i.e. Minnesota (clearly behind Butler and probably Towns this year let alone going forward and that is a team with solid management and a well respected coach), San Antonio (clearly behind Leonard and the most stable organization in the NBA), Miami (clearly the man, but aside from San An is the most stable organization in the sport), and New York (his home town so a bit different than the other 3). Irving just doesn't want to play with James and can't stand the dysfunction that is the Cavs management. Remember he wasn't the one who leaked his trade request to the press and thus he wasn't the one controlling that narrative. After winning the title, James was apparently pushing the Cavs to trade Irving for Chris Paul (a title the Cavs don't win without Irving). Maybe just maybe that soured the relationship, which worsened over the entirety of last season culminating with Irving asking out at the end of the season maybe even after Griffin was let go (a GM that was genuinely liked and well respected by everyone on the Cavs and around the NBA). If he really wanted to be the man, he wouldn't have put San Antonio and Minnesota on his list. That tells you that wasn't why Irving asked out.
TP. Couldn't have said it better myself.
And GreenEnvy, I'm not worried about "what happens after he gets $150m". He's already making bank with his endorsements (he's got the best selling signature sneaker in Nike's basketball line 2 years running), if it was about the money he would've checked out awhile ago.
-
Maybe the morons are the ones who think Irving is trolling. In the context it certainly didn't look as though Irving wasn't 100% serious when he said that stuff. There was no humor in it. I don't see the point of saying that stuff without some kind of humor. I think the stuff he said is just so ridiculous that some people have to file it the "he can't be serious" category. To me it seemed like he was serious. The second coming of Carl Everett.
The thing is, Irving has actually all but said he was trolling everyone.
http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/02/kyrie_irving_admits_science_su.html#incart_river_index
"It would be scientifically impossible, which I'm totally aware of that," Irving said after the East's All-Star practice on Saturday.
"I just feel like the fact that it's even a conversation is hilarious," he said. "That that could actually be news. It's hilarious."
-
Maybe the morons are the ones who think Irving is trolling. In the context it certainly didn't look as though Irving wasn't 100% serious when he said that stuff. There was no humor in it. I don't see the point of saying that stuff without some kind of humor. I think the stuff he said is just so ridiculous that some people have to file it the "he can't be serious" category. To me it seemed like he was serious. The second coming of Carl Everett.
The thing is, Irving has actually all but said he was trolling everyone.
http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/02/kyrie_irving_admits_science_su.html#incart_river_index
"It would be scientifically impossible, which I'm totally aware of that," Irving said after the East's All-Star practice on Saturday.
"I just feel like the fact that it's even a conversation is hilarious," he said. "That that could actually be news. It's hilarious."
I never saw the stuff from that day. So he wasn't serious. He thinks it's hilarious but it's not funny.
-
No thanks, please don't mess with our chemistry.
IT4 is our heart and soul.
-
I really just cannot fathom Ainge trading Thomas for Irving. I suspect that would cause major issues in the lockeroom, as IT is a rather beloved guy. Ainge (hopefully) learned his lesson about this after the Perkins trade.
-
Has to be Boston sniffing out a 3 way trade. We're always hunting for good intel.
Let's just blow up the league.
Love, Davis to Boston
Cousins, Crowder, Morris to Cleveland
Horford, Irving, Brown to New Orleans
IT/ Smart/ Hayward/ Love/ Davis
wooooooooo
-
KI is leaving now or next year. Cavs are in a mess and have a strong incentive to try to trade him.
If we clearly win such a trade, you do it. Otherwise, don't.
IT and Tatum for Irving is a don't.
-
Maybe the morons are the ones who think Irving is trolling. In the context it certainly didn't look as though Irving wasn't 100% serious when he said that stuff. There was no humor in it. I don't see the point of saying that stuff without some kind of humor. I think the stuff he said is just so ridiculous that some people have to file it the "he can't be serious" category. To me it seemed like he was serious. The second coming of Carl Everett.
The thing is, Irving has actually all but said he was trolling everyone.
http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/02/kyrie_irving_admits_science_su.html#incart_river_index
"It would be scientifically impossible, which I'm totally aware of that," Irving said after the East's All-Star practice on Saturday.
"I just feel like the fact that it's even a conversation is hilarious," he said. "That that could actually be news. It's hilarious."
I never saw the stuff from that day. So he wasn't serious. He thinks it's hilarious but it's not funny.
you've missed his point entirely.
-
Maybe the morons are the ones who think Irving is trolling. In the context it certainly didn't look as though Irving wasn't 100% serious when he said that stuff. There was no humor in it. I don't see the point of saying that stuff without some kind of humor. I think the stuff he said is just so ridiculous that some people have to file it the "he can't be serious" category. To me it seemed like he was serious. The second coming of Carl Everett.
The thing is, Irving has actually all but said he was trolling everyone.
http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2017/02/kyrie_irving_admits_science_su.html#incart_river_index
"It would be scientifically impossible, which I'm totally aware of that," Irving said after the East's All-Star practice on Saturday.
"I just feel like the fact that it's even a conversation is hilarious," he said. "That that could actually be news. It's hilarious."
I never saw the stuff from that day. So he wasn't serious. He thinks it's hilarious but it's not funny.
you've missed his point entirely.
It's definitely funny. It actually is hilarious.
-
Irving is a great player and this will be a very difficult decision for Danny. I'd love to have him but I'm really undecided how best to pull it off mostly because IT means so much to the team.
-
Do not want Kyrie here. Too selfish. I'd hate having to watch him play 100 times a year.
-
Three way trade idea
To Knicks: IT4, Shumpert, Crowder
To Cavs: Melo, Rozier, Ntilikina, Knicks 1st, Celtics 1st non lotto
To Celtics: Kyrie
Horford
Morris
Hayward
Smart
Kyrie
Baynes/Zizic
Semi/Yabu
Tatum
Brown
Larkin
Good?
-
I think Irving is an upgrade over Thomas, especially Irving for the next 6 yrs (25-31) vs Thomas for the next 5 (28-33) for similar total money.
But I also now fall into the camp of thinking Tatum (4 yr rookie scale+probable 20%max rookie extension for 4 yrs) +Thomas is too much for Irving, so it would have to be some 3 team deal where Thomas goes somewhere, Tatum to cleveland, Irving and something else useful coming back here.
-
Three way trade idea
To Knicks: IT4, Shumpert, Crowder
To Cavs: Melo, Rozier, Ntilikina, Knicks 1st, Celtics 1st non lotto
To Celtics: Kyrie
Horford
Morris
Hayward
Smart
Kyrie
Baynes/Zizic
Semi/Yabu
Tatum
Brown
Larkin
Good?
I hope that Rosier stays. Without Rosier our third ball handler is Larkin, although you can make the case that Hayward is the de factor third ball handler.
-
KI is leaving now or next year. Cavs are in a mess and have a strong incentive to try to trade him.
If we clearly win such a trade, you do it. Otherwise, don't.
IT and Tatum for Irving is a don't.
Agreed. Cs are in no hurry to trade. We have a nice team. Of course, if there is a good trade to be had, go for it. Just that I haven't seen anything resembling "good trade" that is realistic.
-
I don't understand the narrative that Irving is selfish and doesn't care about winning, since he wants to be traded and get out from under LeBron's shadow. If I recall correctly, there are many people on this very site, who want nothing to do with LeBron coming to Boston because of the circus that he brings. Do those people not care about winning too?
BTW, Irving's deadpan comment that the world is flat, is the joke that keeps on giving. I got the joke when I first heard it. The best part of it, there are still people convinced that he thinks the world is flat and are still commenting on it on social media.
-
In theory it makes sense to trade for a younger elite PG.
In the real world I question Irving as a good teammate, and he doesn't seem to have the intangibles Thomas has as a leader. Also I worry about locker room disruption as Thomas was a key reason Horford and Hayward signed here. It may leave a sour taste on some players on the team.
Plus we'll have to trade additional assets as well as Thomas just to get him.
I say stay away and hope he gets traded out west.
-
Here's how the "conversations" are going:
Cleveland: "We want IT, Tatum, Brown, Crowder, the Nets pick and the Lakers/Kings pick for Irving."
Boston: "We'll give you Daniel Theis, Kadeem Allen and a couple of second round picks. We'll throw in Tatum, but it's going to be Drederick, not Jayson."
Irving may be going somewhere this season, but it's not gonna be Boston.
Mike
-
Here's how the "conversations" are going:
Cleveland: "We want IT, Tatum, Brown, Crowder, the Nets pick and the Lakers/Kings pick for Irving."
Boston: "We'll give you Daniel Theis, Kadeem Allen and a couple of second round picks. We'll throw in Tatum, but it's going to be Drederick, not Jayson."
Irving may be going somewhere this season, but it's not gonna be Boston.
Mike
TP for the Simpsons reference, haha.
-
I guess, for example, if you could turn Thomas an Tatum inti Kyrie and Aaron Gordon or Kyrie and Faried or Kyrie and bledsoe or something, would that change it?
-
So, I would deal for Kyrie and it would eb something like this:
Kyrie and a second for IT, Crowder, and the Memphis or LAC 1st......
Anything else, is a no-go!
-
if anything, be the third team and try to fleece the Knucklebockers... but keep IT in Boston and keep Irving far from the Cs:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yagprlby
To Boston: Porzingis
To Cleveland: Rozier, Melo and a future NY pick
To NY: Crowder, Frye, Irving and BOS 2019 first rounder
would hate to see Crowder and Rozier go, but Porzingis might be worth it. If CLE/NY think that's too much for the Cs, so be it, I'd gladly stand pat.
-
if anything, be the third team and try to fleece the Knucklebockers... but keep IT in Boston and keep Irving far from the Cs:
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yagprlby
To Boston: Porzingis
To Cleveland: Rozier, Melo and a future NY pick
To NY: Crowder, Frye, Irving and BOS 2019 first rounder
would hate to see Crowder and Rozier go, but Porzingis might be worth it. If CLE/NY think that's too much for the Cs, so be it, I'd gladly stand pat.
We're not gonna get Porzingis for Crowder/Rozier/a late first. You'd have to replace Crowder or Rozier with Jaylen or Jayson, or swap the 2019 Celtics pick with the 2018 Nets pick for the conversation to even start
-
I don't understand the narrative that Irving is selfish and doesn't care about winning, since he wants to be traded and get out from under LeBron's shadow. If I recall correctly, there are many people on this very site, who want nothing to do with LeBron coming to Boston because of the circus that he brings. Do those people not care about winning too?
BTW, Irving's deadpan comment that the world is flat, is the joke that keeps on giving. I got the joke when I first heard it. The best part of it, there are still people convinced that he thinks the world is flat and are still commenting on it on social media.
Irving is a critical thinker who challenges universally held truths. Agreed he isn't contennt and lazy he wants to lead and win. Trade for him, let someone else max IT.
-
Man... I wonder if any other fan base have discussions about trading their perfectly satisfied, all-star players as much as we do?
IT has been a soldier to the cause and a crucial part of our rebuild... I'm going to say something that will seem very stupid to some.... but I'd rather lose with IT than win with Kyrie.... don't like his approach, he's shown that he's not a team-first guy, I don't see him very active in his community, he has a problem being second fiddle and alienates other teammates... this dude is simply not a celtic
-
Man... I wonder if any other fan base have discussions about trading their perfectly satisfied, all-star players as much as we do?
IT has been a soldier to the cause and a crucial part of our rebuild... I'm going to say something that will seem very stupid to some.... but I'd rather lose with IT than win with Kyrie.... don't like his approach, he's shown that he's not a team-first guy, I don't see him very active in his community, he has a problem being second fiddle and alienates other teammates... this dude is simply not a celtic
lol true
But danny seems to be close to a deal now
-
Man... I wonder if any other fan base have discussions about trading their perfectly satisfied, all-star players as much as we do?
IT has been a soldier to the cause and a crucial part of our rebuild... I'm going to say something that will seem very stupid to some.... but I'd rather lose with IT than win with Kyrie.... don't like his approach, he's shown that he's not a team-first guy, I don't see him very active in his community, he has a problem being second fiddle and alienates other teammates... this dude is simply not a celtic
Yes, many do. Especially ones that are midtable / treadmill status or in the lottery.
Most are concerns about whether the guy has what it takes to be the #1 guy on a Championship winning team or whether he is really a #2 (or #3). Whether it is a lack of skill (usually shot-creation), an unwillingness or inability to play defense (IT), a lack of improvement, questionable leadership, doesn't make his teammates better. That sort of stuff.
Some others are due to the team topping out talent wise, seeing little opportunity to improve and wanting to rebuild via the draft.