CelticsStrong
Around the League => Transaction Ideas and Rumors => Topic started by: Tr1boy on July 30, 2017, 10:58:26 PM
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Its already circulating (rumors) that Lebum has been speaking with his old pal James Jones (New Pres of Suns) about the availability of xyz
The two names that keep popping up are Bledsoe and Josh Jackson.
Trade possibility
To Cavs: Bledsoe, Jackson
To Suns: Irving
Cavs prob want a pick also included...but right now Jackson is said to be not available (for now...)
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Too much for Kyrie. He won't fetch that kind of value.
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If I were Phoenix, I doubt I'd be willing to give up the recent top pick and a future first, especially since I doubt Kyrie stays there long term.
On the other hand, I don't know if Cleveland would want Bledsoe, who is incredibly injury prone (averages about 60 games per year), and Jackson is no sure thing. This deal would hurt their chances this year immensely.
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The Suns don't want to include Jackson but that is fair value for Kyrie. One mediocre/solid starting pg and one blue chip but unproven prospect.
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If I were Phoenix, I doubt I'd be willing to give up the recent top pick and a future first, especially since I doubt Kyrie stays there long term.
On the other hand, I don't know if Cleveland would want Bledsoe, who is incredibly injury prone (averages about 60 games per year), and Jackson is no sure thing. This deal would hurt their chances this year immensely.
Bledsoe , rose and lebron are working out together
I think lebron wouldnt mind playing with Bledsoe
He has been injured so thats why Jackson would need to be included. But when healthy Bledsoe is as every bit good as Kyrie imo. Better defensivley also
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I haven't been keeping up with the circus, but serious question, is LeBron being recognized as acting GM?
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Seems like a fair trade but I give the edge to the Cavs since I don't know Kyrie's willingness to resign with the Suns.
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Too much for Kyrie. He won't fetch that kind of value.
I feel the opposite. Phoenix is basically trading .85 (Bledsoe) and .80 (Jackson) for around 93 cents. In basketball, the team getting the top talent is usually winning the trade.
I guess this all is determined by your view of Jackson. If you think he will be Kawhi Leonard, then you trade Irving for him. I don't think that Jackson will be that good, so I'm fine with Irving.
That being said, there would have to be another shoe to drop for Phoenix if they're trading young pieces to contend now. A veteran wing would be necessary, in my opinion.
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That trade is about even. Makes the Cavs worse this year, but not appreciably worse, but they get a potential difference making rookie at some point down the road. Obviously they would rather keep Irving, but that ship has sailed and that would be a pretty good trade for them given that.
Suns get the star they have been trying to land for years and have 2 seasons to convince him to stay (which he might if Booker, Chriss, Bender, etc. keep developing).
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I don't even like Kyrie and that's a no brainer win for the Suns.
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This is a dream scenario for the Cavs. If Bledsoe stays healthy (big if), the Cavs should be able to roll through all non-Cs EC opponents. Bledose is also friends with Lebron so there should be [at least some kind of] chemistry right away.
Josh Jackson is a top level prospect. He alone could be the centerpiece of a deal - adding in Bledsoe makes this a slam dunk for the Cavs - which is why this won't be offered.
Btw, surprised to see the poll even so far.
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Honestly cant decide because the trade leaves both teams potentially further from winning a championship.
Cavs, I think a healthy Bledsoe is a better fit at PG next to Lebron. He is a down grade offensively but is better on defense and on the boards. Trading Irving for Bledsoe and signing Rose leaves the Cavs with two glass point guards to try to nurse through the season. Adding Jackson is a huge talent grab but i'm not sure he will be able to contribute on a high level this season and his shot may hurt their spacing. Long term Jackson could really benefit for playing on a winning team. However what happens when/if lebron jumps ship and Jackson is left in a Cleveland dumpster fire?
Suns, they get a younger healthier star PG but does he really move the needle for this franchise? When factoring offense and defense debatable how much better Irving is then Bledsoe. He would be joining a roster of talented players who are early in their careers who are not fare enough along in their development to make a push for the playoffs. This is a trade that may net more wins based of off Irving playing more games but in the end that might just be the difference between having the 10th pick in the 2018 draft instead of the 3rd pick. Moving a talent like Jackson this early is also a very dangerous idea. Most people seem to think he at least will hit a ceiling of a low level allstar. He also on paper is a great wing partner for Booker.
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I really can't figure out why the Suns wouldn't do the trade if the reports are true that were willing to trade Bledsoe and 4 for Love on draft night. I mean unless they like Love more than irving, which just seems strange.
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If the Suns think Jackson will be a star, they can't do the trade, much less throw in a potential high #1 on top of it.
Kyrie's a malcontent. They can't trust he'll resign. 2 years of KI isn't worth a rookie you think will be a star, and from the sound of it, they really wanted Jackson.
If I were running Phoenix, I'd pass on this trade and focus on seeing if I could build around Booker and Jackson.
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I mean to me the Suns easily win that trade. Bledsoe has struggled with injury his whole career. Jackson is hardly going to go to the top of the rotation in Cleveland but at least he provides something for after Lebron is gone.
The only reason I wouldn't do it as the Suns is if I thought Irving would leave when his contract is up because they won't be ready to compete before that.
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Cleveland would have to jump at this if they could make this happen. You could def argue that Cleveland isn't getting top dollar on the return, but Irving's put Cleveland in a tough spot so no chance Cleveland get = value on the return. This return is pretty good thou.
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If the Suns think Jackson will be a star, they can't do the trade, much less throw in a potential high #1 on top of it.
Kyrie's a malcontent. They can't trust he'll resign. 2 years of KI isn't worth a rookie you think will be a star, and from the sound of it, they really wanted Jackson.
If I were running Phoenix, I'd pass on this trade and focus on seeing if I could build around Booker and Jackson.
You're right about that currently. Has he always been a malcontent? What makes you think that he will be a malcontent in Phoenix. He doesn't like playing with Lebron. Does that mean he doesn't like playing with every other player in the NBA?
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If the Suns think Jackson will be a star, they can't do the trade, much less throw in a potential high #1 on top of it.
Kyrie's a malcontent. They can't trust he'll resign. 2 years of KI isn't worth a rookie you think will be a star, and from the sound of it, they really wanted Jackson.
If I were running Phoenix, I'd pass on this trade and focus on seeing if I could build around Booker and Jackson.
Maybe. Maybe not
Irving could grow with the Suns and not want to leave
I dont think Irving doesnt want to play for the Cavs. He is just sick and tired to play under Lebron
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This seems like a fair deal for both.. Lebron gets a friend and a young prospect And the Suns get an allstar.. Also, the suns have a star in the making in Booker that they should be building around him (not Jackson).. Grabbing KI Could go a long way in keeping Booker in Phoenix when his deal is up.
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
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I really can't figure out why the Suns wouldn't do the trade if the reports are true that were willing to trade Bledsoe and 4 for Love on draft night. I mean unless they like Love more than irving, which just seems strange.
When I hear these rumors I just keep thinking about the Paul George trade and wondering.
So Phoenix was gonna give up #4 and Bledsoe for Love
And Cleveland wanted to trade Love for George
So how do Pritchard and the Pacers not get involved in this? I'd have to think the Cavs would pull the trigger. Either these rumors are false, or Pritchard is truly a moron. Like, a legendary moron.
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I really can't figure out why the Suns wouldn't do the trade if the reports are true that were willing to trade Bledsoe and 4 for Love on draft night. I mean unless they like Love more than irving, which just seems strange.
When I hear these rumors I just keep thinking about the Paul George trade and wondering.
So Phoenix was gonna give up #4 and Bledsoe for Love
And Cleveland wanted to trade Love for George
So how do Pritchard and the Pacers not get involved in this? I'd have to think the Cavs would pull the trigger. Either these rumors are false, or Pritchard is truly a moron. Like, a legendary moron.
That three way still doesn't solve the Kyrie issue. Sure Cleveland would have George and Lebron, but then they would still have to get rid of Irving.
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I really can't figure out why the Suns wouldn't do the trade if the reports are true that were willing to trade Bledsoe and 4 for Love on draft night. I mean unless they like Love more than irving, which just seems strange.
When I hear these rumors I just keep thinking about the Paul George trade and wondering.
So Phoenix was gonna give up #4 and Bledsoe for Love
And Cleveland wanted to trade Love for George
So how do Pritchard and the Pacers not get involved in this? I'd have to think the Cavs would pull the trigger. Either these rumors are false, or Pritchard is truly a moron. Like, a legendary moron.
It was a 3 way trade rumor where 4 basically ended up in Indiana for George, but Indiana was working with Portland on a potential trade which fell through and by then one of the teams had moved on (supposedly).
But yeah Pritchard is a legendary moron by most accounts.
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
Bledsoe is a step down, which is obvious from the way the poll has gone, but I don't think he is as much a step down as you are indicating. Bledsoe is a better passer, better rebounder, much better defender, gets to the line a lot more, and is generally a more well rounded player than Irving. Irving is a much better shooter and better individual shot creator, and is a better player, but the Cavs don't really need much of what Irving provides. They already have one of the best ISO creators ever, they don't need a second one, and could use the more well rounded player that isn't quite as good overall.
And it isn't like Bledsoe has been a scrub. He has averaged over 20 ppg in each of the prior two seasons and has been over 6 apg in each of the last three along with nearly 5 rpg (last year). And because Bledsoe gets to the line a lot, his TS% last year was 56.3 while Irving's was 58% so there isn't a huge drop off there.
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
Bledsoe is a step down, which is obvious from the way the poll has gone, but I don't think he is as much a step down as you are indicating. Bledsoe is a better passer, better rebounder, much better defender, gets to the line a lot more, and is generally a more well rounded player than Irving. Irving is a much better shooter and better individual shot creator, and is a better player, but the Cavs don't really need much of what Irving provides. They already have one of the best ISO creators ever, they don't need a second one, and could use the more well rounded player that isn't quite as good overall.
And it isn't like Bledsoe has been a scrub. He has averaged over 20 ppg in each of the prior two seasons and has been over 6 apg in each of the last three along with nearly 5 rpg (last year). And because Bledsoe gets to the line a lot, his TS% last year was 56.3 while Irving's was 58% so there isn't a huge drop off there.
Isn't it a little more meaningful that Irving's numbers are coming on one of the best teams in the league while Bledsoe puts up numbers on one of the worst. As you have pointed out before, how much does Bledsoe being a better rebounder matter playing with Thompson, Lebron and Love? I think going from a perrennial all star to an average to slightly above average starter is a death kneel for the Cavs already extremely slim title odds.
Side note: Moranis for years you have argued about it being a stars league and how important it was that the Cavs had the 2nd and 5th best players in a lot of series. In this trade they are clearly downgrading their star power from Irving to Bledsoe and you start pointing out all the factors that offset the loss of him (defense, passing, rebounding). Ironically these were all arguments people made for Bradley being comparable to star players over the years that you never really seemed supportive of. However, when discussing the Cavs you seem to be changing your tune based on whatever they do...
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
Bledsoe is a step down, which is obvious from the way the poll has gone, but I don't think he is as much a step down as you are indicating. Bledsoe is a better passer, better rebounder, much better defender, gets to the line a lot more, and is generally a more well rounded player than Irving. Irving is a much better shooter and better individual shot creator, and is a better player, but the Cavs don't really need much of what Irving provides. They already have one of the best ISO creators ever, they don't need a second one, and could use the more well rounded player that isn't quite as good overall.
And it isn't like Bledsoe has been a scrub. He has averaged over 20 ppg in each of the prior two seasons and has been over 6 apg in each of the last three along with nearly 5 rpg (last year). And because Bledsoe gets to the line a lot, his TS% last year was 56.3 while Irving's was 58% so there isn't a huge drop off there.
Isn't it a little more meaningful that Irving's numbers are coming on one of the best teams in the league while Bledsoe puts up numbers on one of the worst. As you have pointed out before, how much does Bledsoe being a better rebounder matter playing with Thompson, Lebron and Love? I think going from a perrennial all star to an average to slightly above average starter is a death kneel for the Cavs already extremely slim title odds.
I've never bought into the notion that good stats on great teams are always better than good stats on bad teams. Sure sometimes players just put up numbers because of shots, opportunities, etc., that they get because they are on a bad team, but similarly sometimes players are far more efficient and thus have better stats because of their superior teammates on good teams. I'd expect, Irving's efficiency to decrease a bit and Bledsoe's efficiency to increase a bit if they swapped teams, just by the nature of the team (Irving is better and a better shooter so he will likely have better offensive stats in both situations, but I'm just saying I wouldn't expect to see Bledsoe tank and Irving to skyrocket).
And don't get me wrong, the Cavs are better with Irving then they are with Bledsoe and Jackson, but I don't think they are that much better with Irving and they might have a bit more cohesiveness overall (with the better defender, passer, and rebounder that is Bledsoe and the younger defensive oriented wing on the bench). So yeah, their slim title chances are probably lessened, but they would still be the heavy favorite to come out of the East (Scalabrine was moaning about that this morning, that unless the Cavs just give Irving away for future considerations, that the Cavs will still beat the Celtics because of James).
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
Bledsoe is a step down, which is obvious from the way the poll has gone, but I don't think he is as much a step down as you are indicating. Bledsoe is a better passer, better rebounder, much better defender, gets to the line a lot more, and is generally a more well rounded player than Irving. Irving is a much better shooter and better individual shot creator, and is a better player, but the Cavs don't really need much of what Irving provides. They already have one of the best ISO creators ever, they don't need a second one, and could use the more well rounded player that isn't quite as good overall.
And it isn't like Bledsoe has been a scrub. He has averaged over 20 ppg in each of the prior two seasons and has been over 6 apg in each of the last three along with nearly 5 rpg (last year). And because Bledsoe gets to the line a lot, his TS% last year was 56.3 while Irving's was 58% so there isn't a huge drop off there.
Isn't it a little more meaningful that Irving's numbers are coming on one of the best teams in the league while Bledsoe puts up numbers on one of the worst. As you have pointed out before, how much does Bledsoe being a better rebounder matter playing with Thompson, Lebron and Love? I think going from a perrennial all star to an average to slightly above average starter is a death kneel for the Cavs already extremely slim title odds.
I've never bought into the notion that good stats on great teams are always better than good stats on bad teams. Sure sometimes players just put up numbers because of shots, opportunities, etc., that they get because they are on a bad team, but similarly sometimes players are far more efficient and thus have better stats because of their superior teammates on good teams. I'd expect, Irving's efficiency to decrease a bit and Bledsoe's efficiency to increase a bit if they swapped teams, just by the nature of the team (Irving is better and a better shooter so he will likely have better offensive stats in both situations, but I'm just saying I wouldn't expect to see Bledsoe tank and Irving to skyrocket).
And don't get me wrong, the Cavs are better with Irving then they are with Bledsoe and Jackson, but I don't think they are that much better with Irving and they might have a bit more cohesiveness overall (with the better defender, passer, and rebounder that is Bledsoe and the younger defensive oriented wing on the bench). So yeah, their slim title chances are probably lessened, but they would still be the heavy favorite to come out of the East (Scalabrine was moaning about that this morning, that unless the Cavs just give Irving away for future considerations, that the Cavs will still beat the Celtics because of James).
Yes let us all use Scalabrine moaning as a basis for what will happen.
Probably 50 times over the last year you have tried to use the argument that the Cavs had the best and second best and probably 5th best players against the Celtics in a Series. Now all of a sudden the Celtics will have the second and third best and 5th best with the Cavs having best, 4th and 6th (with a big droppoff to the 7th spots that get into role players like Smart, Thompson, Crowder, Korver, Rose and Morris)
Barring a really unexpected return to form by Rose (he has lost so much athleticism I don't see it happening) the Cavs are not going to be heavy favorites to win east over Boston if they make that trade.
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
I don't think anyone has said that. On a raw talent level, Irving is better. But Bledsoe might be a better fit because of his defense, existing relationship with Lebron, and willingness to defer offensively (and Bled isn't too shabby in the offense department, either). I think the thought process is the Cavs aren't necessarily going to win a trade in which they lose Irving, but they could make a move that doesn't completely force them to take a step back in contention. Bledsoe is one of the better plug-and-play options on the trade market.
And fwiw, I don't put much stock into not having made the All-Star team. I mean, Mike Conley still hasn't made one.
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
Bledsoe is a step down, which is obvious from the way the poll has gone, but I don't think he is as much a step down as you are indicating. Bledsoe is a better passer, better rebounder, much better defender, gets to the line a lot more, and is generally a more well rounded player than Irving. Irving is a much better shooter and better individual shot creator, and is a better player, but the Cavs don't really need much of what Irving provides. They already have one of the best ISO creators ever, they don't need a second one, and could use the more well rounded player that isn't quite as good overall.
And it isn't like Bledsoe has been a scrub. He has averaged over 20 ppg in each of the prior two seasons and has been over 6 apg in each of the last three along with nearly 5 rpg (last year). And because Bledsoe gets to the line a lot, his TS% last year was 56.3 while Irving's was 58% so there isn't a huge drop off there.
Isn't it a little more meaningful that Irving's numbers are coming on one of the best teams in the league while Bledsoe puts up numbers on one of the worst. As you have pointed out before, how much does Bledsoe being a better rebounder matter playing with Thompson, Lebron and Love? I think going from a perrennial all star to an average to slightly above average starter is a death kneel for the Cavs already extremely slim title odds.
I've never bought into the notion that good stats on great teams are always better than good stats on bad teams. Sure sometimes players just put up numbers because of shots, opportunities, etc., that they get because they are on a bad team, but similarly sometimes players are far more efficient and thus have better stats because of their superior teammates on good teams. I'd expect, Irving's efficiency to decrease a bit and Bledsoe's efficiency to increase a bit if they swapped teams, just by the nature of the team (Irving is better and a better shooter so he will likely have better offensive stats in both situations, but I'm just saying I wouldn't expect to see Bledsoe tank and Irving to skyrocket).
And don't get me wrong, the Cavs are better with Irving then they are with Bledsoe and Jackson, but I don't think they are that much better with Irving and they might have a bit more cohesiveness overall (with the better defender, passer, and rebounder that is Bledsoe and the younger defensive oriented wing on the bench). So yeah, their slim title chances are probably lessened, but they would still be the heavy favorite to come out of the East (Scalabrine was moaning about that this morning, that unless the Cavs just give Irving away for future considerations, that the Cavs will still beat the Celtics because of James).
Yes let us all use Scalabrine moaning as a basis for what will happen.
Probably 50 times over the last year you have tried to use the argument that the Cavs had the best and second best and probably 5th best players against the Celtics in a Series. Now all of a sudden the Celtics will have the second and third best and 5th best with the Cavs having best, 4th and 6th (with a big droppoff to the 7th spots that get into role players like Smart, Thompson, Crowder, Korver, Rose and Morris)
Barring a really unexpected return to form by Rose (he has lost so much athleticism I don't see it happening) the Cavs are not going to be heavy favorites to win east over Boston if they make that trade.
The thing that you never seem to comprehend, is that James is still significantly better than any one else in that series. And while we can argue in what order to put Hayward, Thomas, and Love, they are all on virtually the same tier of player, and that tier is way below James. Lebron James has been to 7 straight finals, and 8 overall, for a reason. He is just that good. You can say whatever you want about the quality of his teammates, but let's not forget neither Love nor Irving had even been to the playoffs before playing with James (they are both probably better players overall now, and that the fact that Love was a 26/12.5, 2nd Team All NBA player before ever landing in Cleveland isn't lost on me in that statement).
Boston just doesn't have one of those players that you could build a title team around (not counting Brown or Tatum, since they aren't at that level yet, even if they someday might get there). Those are the players that win you playoff series and ultimately championships. In a special season, a team without one of those players, can put it all together and win, but those are rare special seasons where a lot of luck happens (even the 04 Pistons had one of the best rebounding and defending big men in league history, along with 3 other all star level players and a lot of depth).
The Warriors have 2 of those players and two other All NBA level players, which sets them apart from everyone else and makes them a nearly unbeatable team barring injuries.
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
I don't think anyone has said that. On a raw talent level, Irving is better. But if Bledsoe might be a better fit because of his defense, existing relationship with Lebron, and willingness to defer offensively (and Bled isn't too shabby in the offense department, either). I think the thought process is the Cavs aren't necessarily going to win a trade in which they lose Irving, but they could make a move that doesn't completely force them to take a step back in contention. Bledsoe is one of the better plug-and-play options on the trade market.
And fwiw, I don't put much stock into not having made the All-Star team. I mean, Mike Conley still hasn't made one.
Yeah, that's where I'm at.
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
Bledsoe is a step down, which is obvious from the way the poll has gone, but I don't think he is as much a step down as you are indicating. Bledsoe is a better passer, better rebounder, much better defender, gets to the line a lot more, and is generally a more well rounded player than Irving. Irving is a much better shooter and better individual shot creator, and is a better player, but the Cavs don't really need much of what Irving provides. They already have one of the best ISO creators ever, they don't need a second one, and could use the more well rounded player that isn't quite as good overall.
And it isn't like Bledsoe has been a scrub. He has averaged over 20 ppg in each of the prior two seasons and has been over 6 apg in each of the last three along with nearly 5 rpg (last year). And because Bledsoe gets to the line a lot, his TS% last year was 56.3 while Irving's was 58% so there isn't a huge drop off there.
Isn't it a little more meaningful that Irving's numbers are coming on one of the best teams in the league while Bledsoe puts up numbers on one of the worst. As you have pointed out before, how much does Bledsoe being a better rebounder matter playing with Thompson, Lebron and Love? I think going from a perrennial all star to an average to slightly above average starter is a death kneel for the Cavs already extremely slim title odds.
I've never bought into the notion that good stats on great teams are always better than good stats on bad teams. Sure sometimes players just put up numbers because of shots, opportunities, etc., that they get because they are on a bad team, but similarly sometimes players are far more efficient and thus have better stats because of their superior teammates on good teams. I'd expect, Irving's efficiency to decrease a bit and Bledsoe's efficiency to increase a bit if they swapped teams, just by the nature of the team (Irving is better and a better shooter so he will likely have better offensive stats in both situations, but I'm just saying I wouldn't expect to see Bledsoe tank and Irving to skyrocket).
And don't get me wrong, the Cavs are better with Irving then they are with Bledsoe and Jackson, but I don't think they are that much better with Irving and they might have a bit more cohesiveness overall (with the better defender, passer, and rebounder that is Bledsoe and the younger defensive oriented wing on the bench). So yeah, their slim title chances are probably lessened, but they would still be the heavy favorite to come out of the East (Scalabrine was moaning about that this morning, that unless the Cavs just give Irving away for future considerations, that the Cavs will still beat the Celtics because of James).
Yes let us all use Scalabrine moaning as a basis for what will happen.
Probably 50 times over the last year you have tried to use the argument that the Cavs had the best and second best and probably 5th best players against the Celtics in a Series. Now all of a sudden the Celtics will have the second and third best and 5th best with the Cavs having best, 4th and 6th (with a big droppoff to the 7th spots that get into role players like Smart, Thompson, Crowder, Korver, Rose and Morris)
Barring a really unexpected return to form by Rose (he has lost so much athleticism I don't see it happening) the Cavs are not going to be heavy favorites to win east over Boston if they make that trade.
The thing that you never seem to comprehend, is that James is still significantly better than any one else in that series. And while we can argue in what order to put Hayward, Thomas, and Love, they are all on virtually the same tier of player, and that tier is way below James. Lebron James has been to 7 straight finals, and 8 overall, for a reason. He is just that good. You can say whatever you want about the quality of his teammates, but let's not forget neither Love nor Irving had even been to the playoffs before playing with James (they are both probably better players overall now, and that the fact that Love was a 26/12.5, 2nd Team All NBA player before ever landing in Cleveland isn't lost on me in that statement).
Boston just doesn't have one of those players that you could build a title team around (not counting Brown or Tatum, since they aren't at that level yet, even if they someday might get there). Those are the players that win you playoff series and ultimately championships. In a special season, a team without one of those players, can put it all together and win, but those are rare special seasons where a lot of luck happens (even the 04 Pistons had one of the best rebounding and defending big men in league history, along with 3 other all star level players and a lot of depth).
The Warriors have 2 of those players and two other All NBA level players, which sets them apart from everyone else and makes them a nearly unbeatable team barring injuries.
What you seem to always discount is Lebron's age and players getting worse as they age. Lebron will be 33 early in the season....
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/
Look at this article http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/
"Players peak around 25. Up until they’re around thirty their decline is slow. Once they hit thirty-two though their degradation is very swift."
If Lebron has a significant decline in his skills he is not going to be a separate tier from Hayward for very long..
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
Bledsoe is a step down, which is obvious from the way the poll has gone, but I don't think he is as much a step down as you are indicating. Bledsoe is a better passer, better rebounder, much better defender, gets to the line a lot more, and is generally a more well rounded player than Irving. Irving is a much better shooter and better individual shot creator, and is a better player, but the Cavs don't really need much of what Irving provides. They already have one of the best ISO creators ever, they don't need a second one, and could use the more well rounded player that isn't quite as good overall.
And it isn't like Bledsoe has been a scrub. He has averaged over 20 ppg in each of the prior two seasons and has been over 6 apg in each of the last three along with nearly 5 rpg (last year). And because Bledsoe gets to the line a lot, his TS% last year was 56.3 while Irving's was 58% so there isn't a huge drop off there.
Isn't it a little more meaningful that Irving's numbers are coming on one of the best teams in the league while Bledsoe puts up numbers on one of the worst. As you have pointed out before, how much does Bledsoe being a better rebounder matter playing with Thompson, Lebron and Love? I think going from a perrennial all star to an average to slightly above average starter is a death kneel for the Cavs already extremely slim title odds.
I've never bought into the notion that good stats on great teams are always better than good stats on bad teams. Sure sometimes players just put up numbers because of shots, opportunities, etc., that they get because they are on a bad team, but similarly sometimes players are far more efficient and thus have better stats because of their superior teammates on good teams. I'd expect, Irving's efficiency to decrease a bit and Bledsoe's efficiency to increase a bit if they swapped teams, just by the nature of the team (Irving is better and a better shooter so he will likely have better offensive stats in both situations, but I'm just saying I wouldn't expect to see Bledsoe tank and Irving to skyrocket).
And don't get me wrong, the Cavs are better with Irving then they are with Bledsoe and Jackson, but I don't think they are that much better with Irving and they might have a bit more cohesiveness overall (with the better defender, passer, and rebounder that is Bledsoe and the younger defensive oriented wing on the bench). So yeah, their slim title chances are probably lessened, but they would still be the heavy favorite to come out of the East (Scalabrine was moaning about that this morning, that unless the Cavs just give Irving away for future considerations, that the Cavs will still beat the Celtics because of James).
Yes let us all use Scalabrine moaning as a basis for what will happen.
Probably 50 times over the last year you have tried to use the argument that the Cavs had the best and second best and probably 5th best players against the Celtics in a Series. Now all of a sudden the Celtics will have the second and third best and 5th best with the Cavs having best, 4th and 6th (with a big droppoff to the 7th spots that get into role players like Smart, Thompson, Crowder, Korver, Rose and Morris)
Barring a really unexpected return to form by Rose (he has lost so much athleticism I don't see it happening) the Cavs are not going to be heavy favorites to win east over Boston if they make that trade.
The thing that you never seem to comprehend, is that James is still significantly better than any one else in that series. And while we can argue in what order to put Hayward, Thomas, and Love, they are all on virtually the same tier of player, and that tier is way below James. Lebron James has been to 7 straight finals, and 8 overall, for a reason. He is just that good. You can say whatever you want about the quality of his teammates, but let's not forget neither Love nor Irving had even been to the playoffs before playing with James (they are both probably better players overall now, and that the fact that Love was a 26/12.5, 2nd Team All NBA player before ever landing in Cleveland isn't lost on me in that statement).
Boston just doesn't have one of those players that you could build a title team around (not counting Brown or Tatum, since they aren't at that level yet, even if they someday might get there). Those are the players that win you playoff series and ultimately championships. In a special season, a team without one of those players, can put it all together and win, but those are rare special seasons where a lot of luck happens (even the 04 Pistons had one of the best rebounding and defending big men in league history, along with 3 other all star level players and a lot of depth).
The Warriors have 2 of those players and two other All NBA level players, which sets them apart from everyone else and makes them a nearly unbeatable team barring injuries.
What you seem to always discount is Lebron's age and players getting worse as they age. Lebron will be 33 early in the season....
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/
Look at this article http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/
"Players peak around 25. Up until they’re around thirty their decline is slow. Once they hit thirty-two though their degradation is very swift."
If Lebron has a significant decline in his skills he is not going to be a separate tier from Hayward for very long..
because players rarely go from best in the world to merely average in the span of an off season without an injury. Take Karl Malone, he won two MVP's one at 33 and one at 35. Kareem was winning the MVP at 32 and didn't really drop off until well after 35. Jordan led the league in scoring at the age of 32, 33, and 34, while winning his last 2 MVP's and finishing 2nd the other season.
At some point James won't be James, but he has shown no sign of that fall you think he is going to take and there is no reason to believe this will be the season unless he gets hurt at some point during it. I mean he is coming off a season in which he set his career highs in rpg and apg, and had his 3rd best shooting season (by TS%).
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Bledsoe is very injury prone and Jackson has not played a minute yet..so u don't know what u getting in Jackson
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Jackson has not played a minute yet..so u don't know what u getting in Jackson
Same can be said for Jayson Tatum, but that doesn't stop CBers from declaring him the next Paul Pierce.
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
Bledsoe is a step down, which is obvious from the way the poll has gone, but I don't think he is as much a step down as you are indicating. Bledsoe is a better passer, better rebounder, much better defender, gets to the line a lot more, and is generally a more well rounded player than Irving. Irving is a much better shooter and better individual shot creator, and is a better player, but the Cavs don't really need much of what Irving provides. They already have one of the best ISO creators ever, they don't need a second one, and could use the more well rounded player that isn't quite as good overall.
And it isn't like Bledsoe has been a scrub. He has averaged over 20 ppg in each of the prior two seasons and has been over 6 apg in each of the last three along with nearly 5 rpg (last year). And because Bledsoe gets to the line a lot, his TS% last year was 56.3 while Irving's was 58% so there isn't a huge drop off there.
Isn't it a little more meaningful that Irving's numbers are coming on one of the best teams in the league while Bledsoe puts up numbers on one of the worst. As you have pointed out before, how much does Bledsoe being a better rebounder matter playing with Thompson, Lebron and Love? I think going from a perrennial all star to an average to slightly above average starter is a death kneel for the Cavs already extremely slim title odds.
I've never bought into the notion that good stats on great teams are always better than good stats on bad teams. Sure sometimes players just put up numbers because of shots, opportunities, etc., that they get because they are on a bad team, but similarly sometimes players are far more efficient and thus have better stats because of their superior teammates on good teams. I'd expect, Irving's efficiency to decrease a bit and Bledsoe's efficiency to increase a bit if they swapped teams, just by the nature of the team (Irving is better and a better shooter so he will likely have better offensive stats in both situations, but I'm just saying I wouldn't expect to see Bledsoe tank and Irving to skyrocket).
And don't get me wrong, the Cavs are better with Irving then they are with Bledsoe and Jackson, but I don't think they are that much better with Irving and they might have a bit more cohesiveness overall (with the better defender, passer, and rebounder that is Bledsoe and the younger defensive oriented wing on the bench). So yeah, their slim title chances are probably lessened, but they would still be the heavy favorite to come out of the East (Scalabrine was moaning about that this morning, that unless the Cavs just give Irving away for future considerations, that the Cavs will still beat the Celtics because of James).
Yes let us all use Scalabrine moaning as a basis for what will happen.
Probably 50 times over the last year you have tried to use the argument that the Cavs had the best and second best and probably 5th best players against the Celtics in a Series. Now all of a sudden the Celtics will have the second and third best and 5th best with the Cavs having best, 4th and 6th (with a big droppoff to the 7th spots that get into role players like Smart, Thompson, Crowder, Korver, Rose and Morris)
Barring a really unexpected return to form by Rose (he has lost so much athleticism I don't see it happening) the Cavs are not going to be heavy favorites to win east over Boston if they make that trade.
The thing that you never seem to comprehend, is that James is still significantly better than any one else in that series. And while we can argue in what order to put Hayward, Thomas, and Love, they are all on virtually the same tier of player, and that tier is way below James. Lebron James has been to 7 straight finals, and 8 overall, for a reason. He is just that good. You can say whatever you want about the quality of his teammates, but let's not forget neither Love nor Irving had even been to the playoffs before playing with James (they are both probably better players overall now, and that the fact that Love was a 26/12.5, 2nd Team All NBA player before ever landing in Cleveland isn't lost on me in that statement).
Boston just doesn't have one of those players that you could build a title team around (not counting Brown or Tatum, since they aren't at that level yet, even if they someday might get there). Those are the players that win you playoff series and ultimately championships. In a special season, a team without one of those players, can put it all together and win, but those are rare special seasons where a lot of luck happens (even the 04 Pistons had one of the best rebounding and defending big men in league history, along with 3 other all star level players and a lot of depth).
The Warriors have 2 of those players and two other All NBA level players, which sets them apart from everyone else and makes them a nearly unbeatable team barring injuries.
What you seem to always discount is Lebron's age and players getting worse as they age. Lebron will be 33 early in the season....
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/
Look at this article http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/
"Players peak around 25. Up until they’re around thirty their decline is slow. Once they hit thirty-two though their degradation is very swift."
If Lebron has a significant decline in his skills he is not going to be a separate tier from Hayward for very long..
because players rarely go from best in the world to merely average in the span of an off season without an injury. Take Karl Malone, he won two MVP's one at 33 and one at 35. Kareem was winning the MVP at 32 and didn't really drop off until well after 35. Jordan led the league in scoring at the age of 32, 33, and 34, while winning his last 2 MVP's and finishing 2nd the other season.
At some point James won't be James, but he has shown no sign of that fall you think he is going to take and there is no reason to believe this will be the season unless he gets hurt at some point during it. I mean he is coming off a season in which he set his career highs in rpg and apg, and had his 3rd best shooting season (by TS%).
Lol.. you are certainly his most loyal fan on this board. Also clearly Kareem and Malone relied on athleticism less than Lebron. Coming up with 2 guys over the last 35 years is hardly a compelling argument. There are some players that are tall that don't rely on athleticism as much (kareem, duncan) that have aged quite nicely. Small forwards really have not followed that pattern. Look at Paul Pierce or other recent greats to see that curve.
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I am a bit surprised that people are acting like Bledsoe isn't a significant step down from Irving. I agree that Irving may be a little overrated and perhaps Bledsoe a little underrated cause of defense. That withstanding though Irving has basically been an all-star every single year in the league and Bledsoe has never made one. They are definitely on a slightly different level from each other and of the two Irving is the only one with a truly elite skill (two actually ball handling and finishing at the rim). Is this normal to think a perennial all-star and a guy that has never made one are the same player? I feel like this would be us saying Bradley was as good a player as Derozen the last few years cause Bradley was elite defensively...
Bledsoe is a step down, which is obvious from the way the poll has gone, but I don't think he is as much a step down as you are indicating. Bledsoe is a better passer, better rebounder, much better defender, gets to the line a lot more, and is generally a more well rounded player than Irving. Irving is a much better shooter and better individual shot creator, and is a better player, but the Cavs don't really need much of what Irving provides. They already have one of the best ISO creators ever, they don't need a second one, and could use the more well rounded player that isn't quite as good overall.
And it isn't like Bledsoe has been a scrub. He has averaged over 20 ppg in each of the prior two seasons and has been over 6 apg in each of the last three along with nearly 5 rpg (last year). And because Bledsoe gets to the line a lot, his TS% last year was 56.3 while Irving's was 58% so there isn't a huge drop off there.
Isn't it a little more meaningful that Irving's numbers are coming on one of the best teams in the league while Bledsoe puts up numbers on one of the worst. As you have pointed out before, how much does Bledsoe being a better rebounder matter playing with Thompson, Lebron and Love? I think going from a perrennial all star to an average to slightly above average starter is a death kneel for the Cavs already extremely slim title odds.
I've never bought into the notion that good stats on great teams are always better than good stats on bad teams. Sure sometimes players just put up numbers because of shots, opportunities, etc., that they get because they are on a bad team, but similarly sometimes players are far more efficient and thus have better stats because of their superior teammates on good teams. I'd expect, Irving's efficiency to decrease a bit and Bledsoe's efficiency to increase a bit if they swapped teams, just by the nature of the team (Irving is better and a better shooter so he will likely have better offensive stats in both situations, but I'm just saying I wouldn't expect to see Bledsoe tank and Irving to skyrocket).
And don't get me wrong, the Cavs are better with Irving then they are with Bledsoe and Jackson, but I don't think they are that much better with Irving and they might have a bit more cohesiveness overall (with the better defender, passer, and rebounder that is Bledsoe and the younger defensive oriented wing on the bench). So yeah, their slim title chances are probably lessened, but they would still be the heavy favorite to come out of the East (Scalabrine was moaning about that this morning, that unless the Cavs just give Irving away for future considerations, that the Cavs will still beat the Celtics because of James).
Yes let us all use Scalabrine moaning as a basis for what will happen.
Probably 50 times over the last year you have tried to use the argument that the Cavs had the best and second best and probably 5th best players against the Celtics in a Series. Now all of a sudden the Celtics will have the second and third best and 5th best with the Cavs having best, 4th and 6th (with a big droppoff to the 7th spots that get into role players like Smart, Thompson, Crowder, Korver, Rose and Morris)
Barring a really unexpected return to form by Rose (he has lost so much athleticism I don't see it happening) the Cavs are not going to be heavy favorites to win east over Boston if they make that trade.
The thing that you never seem to comprehend, is that James is still significantly better than any one else in that series. And while we can argue in what order to put Hayward, Thomas, and Love, they are all on virtually the same tier of player, and that tier is way below James. Lebron James has been to 7 straight finals, and 8 overall, for a reason. He is just that good. You can say whatever you want about the quality of his teammates, but let's not forget neither Love nor Irving had even been to the playoffs before playing with James (they are both probably better players overall now, and that the fact that Love was a 26/12.5, 2nd Team All NBA player before ever landing in Cleveland isn't lost on me in that statement).
Boston just doesn't have one of those players that you could build a title team around (not counting Brown or Tatum, since they aren't at that level yet, even if they someday might get there). Those are the players that win you playoff series and ultimately championships. In a special season, a team without one of those players, can put it all together and win, but those are rare special seasons where a lot of luck happens (even the 04 Pistons had one of the best rebounding and defending big men in league history, along with 3 other all star level players and a lot of depth).
The Warriors have 2 of those players and two other All NBA level players, which sets them apart from everyone else and makes them a nearly unbeatable team barring injuries.
What you seem to always discount is Lebron's age and players getting worse as they age. Lebron will be 33 early in the season....
http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/
Look at this article http://wagesofwins.com/nba-players-age-like-milk/
"Players peak around 25. Up until they’re around thirty their decline is slow. Once they hit thirty-two though their degradation is very swift."
If Lebron has a significant decline in his skills he is not going to be a separate tier from Hayward for very long..
because players rarely go from best in the world to merely average in the span of an off season without an injury. Take Karl Malone, he won two MVP's one at 33 and one at 35. Kareem was winning the MVP at 32 and didn't really drop off until well after 35. Jordan led the league in scoring at the age of 32, 33, and 34, while winning his last 2 MVP's and finishing 2nd the other season.
At some point James won't be James, but he has shown no sign of that fall you think he is going to take and there is no reason to believe this will be the season unless he gets hurt at some point during it. I mean he is coming off a season in which he set his career highs in rpg and apg, and had his 3rd best shooting season (by TS%).
Lol.. you are certainly his most loyal fan on this board. Also clearly Kareem and Malone relied on athleticism less than Lebron. Coming up with 2 guys over the last 35 years is hardly a compelling argument. There are some players that are tall that don't rely on athleticism as much (kareem, duncan) that have aged quite nicely. Small forwards really have not followed that pattern. Look at Paul Pierce or other recent greats to see that curve.
Also TS aside, there were definitely signs of slippage in Lebron's game last year. He is obviously a great player but he certainly inched closer to being an average player on defense than he has at any time aside from his rookie year and his amount of shots getting blocked at the rim has also been increasing. I'll grant you that the decline is clearly not sharp at this point but he is at an age where it does (you also have to remember he has played way more minutes to this point in his career than anyone you are trying to compare him to). Say Lebron is 10% worse this year from turning 33.. how much does that 10% knock him down? Below Durant and Leonard clearly (who many feel have already passed him) perhaps down to the next peg with guys like Davis, Westbrook and Harden) if it is more than that than he is just another all-star...
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Suns have reportedly offered Bledsoe, Bender, and Miami's 1st (top 7 protected next year and unprotected in 2019) for Irving. Cavs are holding out for Jackson (instead of Bender). This is clearly and by far the best reported offer the Cavs have received (Minnesota won't include Wiggins, Denver won't trade Murray and Harris).
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/04/report-suns-willing-to-trade-eric-bledsoe-dragan-bender-first-round-pick-for-kyrie-irving/
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Suns have reportedly offered Bledsoe, Bender, and Miami's 1st (top 7 protected next year and unprotected in 2019) for Irving. Cavs are holding out for Jackson (instead of Bender). This is clearly and by far the best reported offer the Cavs have received (Minnesota won't include Wiggins, Denver won't trade Murray and Harris).
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/04/report-suns-willing-to-trade-eric-bledsoe-dragan-bender-first-round-pick-for-kyrie-irving/
I wonder if they'll need another team (that's high on Bender) to get involved and swap Bender for either a different prospect/pick or a more established player. I can't see Phoenix agreeing to move Jackson, so it will come down to how mutch Cleveland is willing to budge.
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Suns have reportedly offered Bledsoe, Bender, and Miami's 1st (top 7 protected next year and unprotected in 2019) for Irving. Cavs are holding out for Jackson (instead of Bender). This is clearly and by far the best reported offer the Cavs have received (Minnesota won't include Wiggins, Denver won't trade Murray and Harris).
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/04/report-suns-willing-to-trade-eric-bledsoe-dragan-bender-first-round-pick-for-kyrie-irving/
I don't think that is going to get it done. I have heard that scouts were extremely down overall on Bender during summer league and he obviously won't be ready to contribute serious minutes on a playoff team next year either way. Miami is pretty much a lock to make the playoffs after Indiana, Chicago and Atlanta all blew up their teams last offseason (and Miami clearly found something with Dragic, Whiteside, Waiters and Johnson the second half of the year) so you are probably talking about the 16-18th pick in the draft. That is a really poor return for a 25 year old star that has made multiple all-star games and been all NBA 3rd team at a loaded position and has two more years of a reasonable contract.
A team of
Bledsoe
Smith
Lebron
Love
Thompson
with Rose, 37 year old Korver and a bunch of 35 year olds and Bender filling out the bench is really not intimidating at all.
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Suns have reportedly offered Bledsoe, Bender, and Miami's 1st (top 7 protected next year and unprotected in 2019) for Irving. Cavs are holding out for Jackson (instead of Bender). This is clearly and by far the best reported offer the Cavs have received (Minnesota won't include Wiggins, Denver won't trade Murray and Harris).
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/04/report-suns-willing-to-trade-eric-bledsoe-dragan-bender-first-round-pick-for-kyrie-irving/
I'd love for that deal. Cavs get worse, Suns get better. Helps the Celtics get past the Cavs and the Suns get past the Lakers and Nets (and Kings in 2019 if necessary).
If the Cavs can get the Suns to take back Shumpert they should take the deal.
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Suns have reportedly offered Bledsoe, Bender, and Miami's 1st (top 7 protected next year and unprotected in 2019) for Irving. Cavs are holding out for Jackson (instead of Bender). This is clearly and by far the best reported offer the Cavs have received (Minnesota won't include Wiggins, Denver won't trade Murray and Harris).
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/04/report-suns-willing-to-trade-eric-bledsoe-dragan-bender-first-round-pick-for-kyrie-irving/
I'd love for that deal. Cavs get worse, Suns get better. Helps the Celtics get past the Cavs and the Suns get past the Lakers and Nets (and Kings in 2019 if necessary).
If the Cavs can get the Suns to take back Shumpert they should take the deal.
Didn't think about this helping the suns get above the Lakers and Nets. Does this knock the Cavs down to 3rd in the east? A team with two all stars and some really aging role players (even if one is Lebron) is not inspiring a fear. Side note I believe this is the first time Lebron would not be suiting up alongside in their prime allstars since the 2009-2010 season! Kind of hard to believe.
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Suns have reportedly offered Bledsoe, Bender, and Miami's 1st (top 7 protected next year and unprotected in 2019) for Irving. Cavs are holding out for Jackson (instead of Bender). This is clearly and by far the best reported offer the Cavs have received (Minnesota won't include Wiggins, Denver won't trade Murray and Harris).
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2017/08/04/report-suns-willing-to-trade-eric-bledsoe-dragan-bender-first-round-pick-for-kyrie-irving/
I'd love for that deal. Cavs get worse, Suns get better. Helps the Celtics get past the Cavs and the Suns get past the Lakers and Nets (and Kings in 2019 if necessary).
If the Cavs can get the Suns to take back Shumpert they should take the deal.
I imagine the Suns and Cavs will eventually get something figured out. Whether it is the Suns taking on more salary or different or more pieces going back (Warren, Chriss, Ullis for younger players Dudley, Chandler for vets). There are a lot of variations out there with Irving and Bledsoe being the main components. Just as an example, if Chriss was swapped for Bender, do you think Cleveland is more accommodating or Phoenix balks at that.
Or maybe you keep Bender in the deal, but add Warren and Ullis with Shumpert going back to Phoenix. I actually think the Cavs might do that as it saves them 6 million in salary alone (yet alone the tax savings), they get a quality younger wing for their bench in Warren who can actually help them next year, and a better PG prospect in Ullis then they have in Felder. They also would still have Bender as a potential trade chip (maybe you swap Bender for Okafor straight up or something like that or find a team that likes the promise of Bender and get a veteran).
So with that altered trade the Cavs would be (cutting Felder and Tavares)
PG - Bledsoe, Rose, Calderon, Ullis
SG - Smith, Korver
SF - James, Warren, Jefferson, Osman
PF - Love, Green, Bender
C - Thompson, Frye
Not as good as their team is now, but probably not a bad return for a player demanding a trade.
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I wonder if Cleveland could flip Bender and the Miami 1st to Detroit for Bradley. I don't know if Detroit would have any interest in that, but that would be a solid enough return for Bradley if they were interested in moving him. The Cavs would then essentially trade Irving for Bledsoe and Bradley, which would give them two very solid defensive guards and probably improve their chances in a matchup with the Warriors (though the Warriors would still rightfully be a heavy favorite).
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I wonder if Cleveland could flip Bender and the Miami 1st to Detroit for Bradley.
Ainge would've done that if that were on the table. But to answer your question, Cleveland would be insane to make that offer.
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I wonder if Cleveland could flip Bender and the Miami 1st to Detroit for Bradley.
Ainge would've done that if that were on the table. But to answer your question, Cleveland would be insane to make that offer.
Not if they think Bradley could make the difference against Golden State. Maybe they could even keep Miami's pick (I would start with Bender for Bradley straight up and see what Detroit says). And Phoenix wouldn't have made that offer for Bradley because Bradley doesn't make sense in Phoenix. Bradley makes a lot of sense in Cleveland though.
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I wonder if Cleveland could flip Bender and the Miami 1st to Detroit for Bradley.
Ainge would've done that if that were on the table. But to answer your question, Cleveland would be insane to make that offer.
Not if they think Bradley could make the difference against Golden State. Maybe they could even keep Miami's pick (I would start with Bender for Bradley straight up and see what Detroit says). And Phoenix wouldn't have made that offer for Bradley because Bradley doesn't make sense in Phoenix. Bradley makes a lot of sense in Cleveland though.
After passing on KCP and trading a great contract for the Bird rights of Bradley on an expiring deal, I don't see Detroit moving Bradley. I think they want his shooting and defense at the 2 spot and his veteran presence in the locker room.
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I wonder if Cleveland could flip Bender and the Miami 1st to Detroit for Bradley.
Ainge would've done that if that were on the table. But to answer your question, Cleveland would be insane to make that offer.
Not if they think Bradley could make the difference against Golden State. Maybe they could even keep Miami's pick (I would start with Bender for Bradley straight up and see what Detroit says). And Phoenix wouldn't have made that offer for Bradley because Bradley doesn't make sense in Phoenix. Bradley makes a lot of sense in Cleveland though.
After passing on KCP and trading a great contract for the Bird rights of Bradley on an expiring deal, I don't see Detroit moving Bradley. I think they want his shooting and defense at the 2 spot and his veteran presence in the locker room.
That was my thinking and why I think it would take more than just Bender. that said, Detroit isn't going to be a contender, so I really don't know why they wouldn't consider adding Bender (who theoretically would be a very good fit next to Drummond) for a guy that is going to get paid next summer.
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I wonder if Cleveland could flip Bender and the Miami 1st to Detroit for Bradley.
Ainge would've done that if that were on the table. But to answer your question, Cleveland would be insane to make that offer.
Not if they think Bradley could make the difference against Golden State. Maybe they could even keep Miami's pick (I would start with Bender for Bradley straight up and see what Detroit says). And Phoenix wouldn't have made that offer for Bradley because Bradley doesn't make sense in Phoenix. Bradley makes a lot of sense in Cleveland though.
After passing on KCP and trading a great contract for the Bird rights of Bradley on an expiring deal, I don't see Detroit moving Bradley. I think they want his shooting and defense at the 2 spot and his veteran presence in the locker room.
That was my thinking and why I think it would take more than just Bender. that said, Detroit isn't going to be a contender, so I really don't know why they wouldn't consider adding Bender (who theoretically would be a very good fit next to Drummond) for a guy that is going to get paid next summer.
Because they are Detroit. Detroit hasn't done anything right since signing Ben Gordon.
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The Suns easily win the trade by becoming instantly relevant. If you're adding a top player and not giving up a top player you win the trade. I think it's as simple as that. I guess if you are worried about what that trade looks like 5 years down the road you hesitate but hindsight is always 20/20. Getting Irving for anyone on that Suns roster is an excellent trade for Phoenix. For Cleveland making their team deeper might also make sense.
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I think Detroit has every intention of signing Bradley to a long term contract.
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I think Detroit has every intention of signing Bradley to a long term contract.
Probably but how high are they willing to go and will Bradley have any interest in staying. I can see him getting quite a bit of interest. He'd fit really well on the Sixers. Maybe the Lakers if they can't get a 2nd Max guy to go with George.