CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: gar on July 17, 2017, 03:23:06 PM
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I know that they are prepping Brown to play more at the 2; but I am worried about his ball handling ability and his ability to guard the Kyrie and John Walls of this league. I think that many hear are also sleeping on Nader and his ability to take minutes from Smart and Rozier.
Brown, Nader and Semi can play the 2 guard not sure about Hayward's ability to defend that position. That is a lot of inexperienced players are the 2. Even with a 4 guard rotation of IT, Smart, Rozier and Brown this is the weakest part of our lineup.
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What a novel thread topic.
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Brown has plenty of time to work on his game and has shown such huge improvements. He has elite finishing abilities and I am actually excited to see him dominate other 2's defensively. Watch his playoff performance, he went right for the throat. The kid is a killer.
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I think Brown did pretty dang good last year when he played SG with the starters. Stevens was able to hide his rookie mistakes and deficiencies by playing him with starters. By the time the playoffs started Brown was guarding SGs and SFs well enough to be a regular contributor. Brown is your starting SG this year.
As for his handle, remember when Bradley took over for Ray Allen? It was because he proved he could play NBA defense. Bradley's handle and shooting back then sucked. But he improved into a great two way player. I see Brown doing the same. And with Stevens all switch system of defense, Brown being able to guard multiple positions, much like almost everyone else except IT, will be key to him staying a starter.
I am actually excited to see Brown become a 20 year old starter on this team. I expect big things from him and Tatum this year. I think they are that good. They will be inconsistent but good.
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Brown has plenty of time to work on his game and has shown such huge improvements. He has elite finishing abilities and I am actually excited to see him dominate other 2's defensively. Watch his playoff performance, he went right for the throat. The kid is a killer.
Don't get me wrong....love Jaylen; I just think it is a lot to put on his shoulders. I am more concerned about his ball handling than defense. He had a lot of turnovers and will get picked constantly by smaller quicker guards.
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Perhaps someone can sell me on Smart and Rozier. Yes Jackson was expendable; but would like a more experienced backup, especially if IT goes down. Smart can run the offense; but is not a high percentage scoring threat from the outside.
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My toss in for opening night starting lineup: IT/Brown/Hayward/Horford/Baynes
Yes, I'm aware Crowder is not listed. I stand by it.
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It'll be smart
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Hayward
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Like the idea of Nader playing the point when they need to allow IT to play off the ball or if they want to play an all wing lineup.
Nader, Brown, Hayward, Crowder, Morris
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Like the idea of Nader playing the point when they need to allow IT to play off the ball or if they want to play an all wing lineup.
You must not like winning
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I'd like Brown to start, but Smart might be more useful guarding opposing PGs. Did Jaylen spend time on Kyrie or Wall in the playoffs?
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Hayward.
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What a novel thread topic.
Very new and original thread topic.
Not sure why the OP couldn't have looked at the dozens of posts on the same topic.
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It'll be smart
I still think this too.
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Like the idea of Nader playing the point when they need to allow IT to play off the ball or if they want to play an all wing lineup.
Nader, Brown, Hayward, Crowder, Morris
The logical conclusion to positionless basketball. Wings generally have the greatest combination of skills. As long as they can 3-ball chuck, anyone can play this game these days anyway.
Anyhow, it'll probably be Smart, I'd prefer Brown. Imagine Brown as the 5th option.
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Hopefully Brown. If he primarily focuses on playing strong, fundamental D, he could be the perfect lower-usage 3 and D type of big 2 that would work well between IT and Hayward.
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Hopefully Brown. If he primarily focuses on playing strong, fundamental D, he could be the perfect lower-usage 3 and D type of big 2 that would work well between IT and Hayward.
I agree. You also keep Smart coming off the bench to run the second team. Brown is not ready for that assignment. I like Brown with other two scorers just D-ing up the other teams best guard and not worrying about the offense yet.
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I think coach Stevens has his hands full with the starting lineup.
To me if IT is healthy than our definite starters are him, horford and Haywood. After that it will depend on who fits best with starters and second unit. I personally think smart is kept on bench to run team but rozier might be ready for that.
Those last two starting spots are up for grabs, could be anyone of, Morris, crowder, brown, smart, rozier, baynes(?) just depends on what our coach sees
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I don't think it will be Smart because we need him to run the all-2nd unit that Stevens play during the 2nd Quarter.
I guess it will be Hayward, with Crowder playing the 3.
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Like the idea of Nader playing the point when they need to allow IT to play off the ball or if they want to play an all wing lineup.
Nader, Brown, Hayward, Crowder, Morris
The logical conclusion to positionless basketball. Wings generally have the greatest combination of skills. As long as they can 3-ball chuck, anyone can play this game these days anyway.
Anyhow, it'll probably be Smart, I'd prefer Brown. Imagine Brown as the 5th option.
Nader's ball handling skills looked shaky in the summer league, I shudder to think what would happen if they tried to have him be the primary ball handler against an NBA defense. I actually think Nader has little chance of getting much playing time this year. I expect that in addition to being the primary ball handler when IT is on the bench, Smart will also get plenty of time with IT playing off the ball.
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I mean I'm not sure Browns ball handling would matter much in the starting lineup. You have Thomas getting most of the ball handling duties with Hayward getting a fair amount and even Horford getting some out of the post. That doesn't leave a hole lot left for Brown anyway, so there's really no risk there. Hes already IMO as good or better of a passer than Bradley was anyway. The bigger issue is defense. I definitely don't want Hayward having to defend PG's or even most 2's, he's gonna be splitting the offensive load with Thomas so no reason to run him ragged on defense. Smart has to prove he can shoot, I don't want to see us get an offense upgrade with Hayward only to have to start Smart and destroy our spacing. We already saw them start Jaylen over Smart last year when Bradley was out. My guess is its either Jaylen, or Hayward at the 2 with Crowder, Horford, Baynes and make up the guard defense by switching everything.
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The only reason it shouldn't be Smart is his value on the second unit.
I'm not sure Hayward is anything more than a short term answer at the 2, (I'm sure Crowder will be rooting for him to become the starting SG), and Brown at this point is not only an unreliable scorer, but doesn't facilitate for anyone, and isn't a suitable ball handler for the position just yet.
Smart is an excellent defender at the PG or the SG position, he can help IT run the team with this playmaking, giving him opportunities as the off guard, for a play or two, causing the defense a moment of potential confusion. IMO Smart is the best choice.
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The only reason it shouldn't be Smart is his value on the second unit.
I'm not sure Hayward is anything more than a short term answer at the 2, (I'm sure Crowder will be rooting for him to become the starting SG), and Brown at this point is not only an unreliable scorer, but doesn't facilitate for anyone, and isn't a suitable ball handler for the position just yet.
Smart is an excellent defender at the PG or the SG position, he can help IT run the team with this playmaking, giving him opportunities as the off guard, for a play or two, causing the defense a moment of potential confusion. IMO Smart is the best choice.
This.
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The only reason it shouldn't be Smart is his value on the second unit.
I'm not sure Hayward is anything more than a short term answer at the 2, (I'm sure Crowder will be rooting for him to become the starting SG), and Brown at this point is not only an unreliable scorer, but doesn't facilitate for anyone, and isn't a suitable ball handler for the position just yet.
Smart is an excellent defender at the PG or the SG position, he can help IT run the team with this playmaking, giving him opportunities as the off guard, for a play or two, causing the defense a moment of potential confusion. IMO Smart is the best choice.
This.
Disagree. Starting Smart would mean that we would have nobody that can effectively run offense on the second unit. Rozier has PG size, but is a SG at heart and doesn't look to feed teammates. Not to mention that the facilitator ability of Thomas, Hayward, and Horford would mean that Smart will be playing a large majority of those starter minutes off-ball. Not ideal.
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The only reason it shouldn't be Smart is his value on the second unit.
I'm not sure Hayward is anything more than a short term answer at the 2, (I'm sure Crowder will be rooting for him to become the starting SG), and Brown at this point is not only an unreliable scorer, but doesn't facilitate for anyone, and isn't a suitable ball handler for the position just yet.
Smart is an excellent defender at the PG or the SG position, he can help IT run the team with this playmaking, giving him opportunities as the off guard, for a play or two, causing the defense a moment of potential confusion. IMO Smart is the best choice.
This.
Disagree. Starting Smart would mean that we would have nobody that can effectively run offense on the second unit. Rozier has PG size, but is a SG at heart and doesn't look to feed teammates. Not to mention that the facilitator ability of Thomas, Hayward, and Horford would mean that Smart will be playing a large majority of those starter minutes off-ball. Not ideal.
Which is why Rozier is my biggest concern heading into the season for the second year in a row. Jaylen doesn't look ready, and Hayward is not a SG.
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I don't think Rozier plays 3rd string beginning of the season. My guess is they start Smart to guard opposing PG&SGs and see how Rozier has progressed. Hes made big plays and has tons of experience. I think This is his leap or get traded year imo. Rozier has strong handle and penetration skills if he can develop and control it all season. I think theyll give him a shot if not showcase him for a trade
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Arron Afflalo.
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Brad will start Crowder if Hayward starts at SG; Brown if Hayward is at SF. It really depends where Brad wants Hayward since he is the most important of all players on our team this year and he needs to play where he is most effective.
Also, yes, I understand that CBS uses 'positionless' basketball, but Hayward has to guard somebody (when he isn't switching).
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I'm not sure Hayward is anything more than a short term answer at the 2,
I don't get this thinking at all. Hayward has played the 2 a ton throughout his NBA career, including a lot this last year. He's one of the best wings in the NBA. He's elite on offense and an above average defender.
How is he NOT the answer at the 2?
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Hayward is a capable defender, not as good on ball as Bradley, but his length should actually provide some benefits that Bradley could not in the overall team scheme. Hayward is more than able to check most shooting guards, he's a better defender than many think. Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if CBS went with Brown in the starting line up, he played good D last year and did well as a starter. A lineup of IT, Brown, Hayward, Horford and one more (Baynes, Morris, Crowder...take your pick) makes sense too.
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I'm not sure Hayward is anything more than a short term answer at the 2,
I don't get this thinking at all. Hayward has played the 2 a ton throughout his NBA career, including a lot this last year. He's one of the best wings in the NBA. He's elite on offense and an above average defender.
How is he NOT the answer at the 2?
In the past 4 seasons, 14% of his total possessions played were at the 2. And that's even skewed -- 12% came in '15-'16.
He can guard at SG on switches, but not ideal at his size. Jaylen is probably the best option unless you believe Rozier can be relied upon to lead a 2nd unit. I truly don't.
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I'm not sure Hayward is anything more than a short term answer at the 2,
I don't get this thinking at all. Hayward has played the 2 a ton throughout his NBA career, including a lot this last year. He's one of the best wings in the NBA. He's elite on offense and an above average defender.
How is he NOT the answer at the 2?
Hayward really hasn't played the 2 with any type of consistency since 2012-13. And this past season, his time at the 4 really spiked (70%-SF, 30%-PF). During the playoffs that number at PF raised to an astounding 62%.
I realize Hayward wasn't necessarily brought in to replace Amir's front court role, but his recent history shows very little time at the SG position.
Combine this with the fact that, as players age, they are more likely to move to 'bigger' positions (usually decrease in quickness, increase in strength) and the direction the NBA is going with big men and it is much more likely Hayward starts at PF than SG on opening day.
Now I don't necessarily agree with my argument, just pointing out that it isn't as obvious as it seems.
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You also need to consider that mismatches work both ways. Hayward might be a bit slow to guard quicker twos, but he would be an absolute nightmare for a two to guard. I tend to think that he would do more than enough damage on offense to make up for any shortcomings on defense.
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I'm not sure Hayward is anything more than a short term answer at the 2,
I don't get this thinking at all. Hayward has played the 2 a ton throughout his NBA career, including a lot this last year. He's one of the best wings in the NBA. He's elite on offense and an above average defender.
How is he NOT the answer at the 2?
In the past 4 seasons, 14% of his total possessions played were at the 2. And that's even skewed -- 12% came in '15-'16.
He can guard at SG on switches, but not ideal at his size. Jaylen is probably the best option unless you believe Rozier can be relied upon to lead a 2nd unit. I truly don't.
I'm guessing that you got those numbers from basketball-reference.com's Play-by-Play stats. Those are misleading. My understanding is that those are based on the substitution log.
82games.com has Hayward's positional splits at pretty much 50/50 between SG & SF this last year. And that makes a lot of sense given he shared the floor a ton with Joe Ingles or Joe Johnson, neither of whom are as quick as Hayward (Johnson has been primarily guarding forwards instead of guards since he was still a Net).
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I see Brad taking advantage of Brown's length and quickness defensively.
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I'm guessing that you got those numbers from basketball-reference.com's Play-by-Play stats. Those are misleading. My understanding is that those are based on the substitution log.
82games.com has Hayward's positional splits at pretty much 50/50 between SG & SF this last year. And that makes a lot of sense given he shared the floor a ton with Joe Ingles or Joe Johnson, neither of whom are as quick as Hayward (Johnson has been primarily guarding forwards instead of guards since he was still a Net).
I think most should trust basketball reference over 82games.
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I'm not sure Hayward is anything more than a short term answer at the 2,
I don't get this thinking at all. Hayward has played the 2 a ton throughout his NBA career, including a lot this last year. He's one of the best wings in the NBA. He's elite on offense and an above average defender.
How is he NOT the answer at the 2?
Hayward really hasn't played the 2 with any type of consistency since 2012-13. And this past season, his time at the 4 really spiked (70%-SF, 30%-PF). During the playoffs that number at PF raised to an astounding 62%.
I realize Hayward wasn't necessarily brought in to replace Amir's front court role, but his recent history shows very little time at the SG position.
Combine this with the fact that, as players age, they are more likely to move to 'bigger' positions (usually decrease in quickness, increase in strength) and the direction the NBA is going with big men and it is much more likely Hayward starts at PF than SG on opening day.
Now I don't necessarily agree with my argument, just pointing out that it isn't as obvious as it seems.
Yeah, um, no. Hayward did not spend 30% of his time at PF this last year. The Play-by-Play numbers at basketball-reference.com are not a correct tracker of positional splits. They are based on play-by-play substitution logs, which have only the tiniest correlation with what position the player actually played.
82games.com's positional splits tend to correlate well with sportsVU positional defense tracking. I would refer to them long before using the bb-ref numbers.
And they have Hayward at pretty much an even 50/50 split between the 2 & the 3 this last year. That also correlates well when you look at the 5-man units that Hayward spent the bulk of his time in. If you look at those, there is no way he spent hardly any time (if any) at PF.
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Start with Smart, and hope that by the end of the year it's either clearly Brown's starting spot or Smart's starting spot in a good way (ie, if Brown just looks awesome and beats out Smart as the season goes on, great; if Brown is in fact good but Smart takes another step forward, great).
Edit:
This is assuming IT at PG and Hayward at SF, either starting small with Crowder at 4 or Morris at 4 and Crowder off the bench.
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I think Brown did pretty dang good last year when he played SG with the starters. Stevens was able to hide his rookie mistakes and deficiencies by playing him with starters. By the time the playoffs started Brown was guarding SGs and SFs well enough to be a regular contributor. Brown is your starting SG this year.
As for his handle, remember when Bradley took over for Ray Allen? It was because he proved he could play NBA defense. Bradley's handle and shooting back then sucked. But he improved into a great two way player. I see Brown doing the same. And with Stevens all switch system of defense, Brown being able to guard multiple positions, much like almost everyone else except IT, will be key to him staying a starter.
I am actually excited to see Brown become a 20 year old starter on this team. I expect big things from him and Tatum this year. I think they are that good. They will be inconsistent but good.
Our numbers with the Horford-Jerebko-Crowder-Brown-Thomas lineup was our best the entire season.