CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: KG Living Legend on July 16, 2017, 07:29:29 PM
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I was a little disappointed to find out Morris is a SF that can play some PF, similar to Crowder. Jae player 26% of his minutes at PF last year.
Morris is taller and about the same weight with a much better post up and mid-range game, while Crowder is the better three point shooter.
So who plays more minutes at the four.
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Morris due to his size.
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Morris. I think you see Crowder's minutes drop quite a bit this year with the addition of Hayward, Morris, and Tatum, let alone the improvement of Brown.
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I was a little disappointed to find out Morris is a SF that can play some PF, similar to Crowder. Jae player 26% of his minutes at PF last year.
Morris is taller and about the same weight with a much better post up and mid-range game, while Crowder is the better three point shooter.
So who plays more minutes at the four.
I think that Horford will be the starter at the '4' and Crowder at the '3', just like last season. Then Baynes will fill in the role like Johnson did and Morris/Tatum are the replacements for Olynyk/Jerebko. Even tough the rotation below is more logical.
Anyhow, unless Morris disappoints I don't think Crowder will play much at PF.
Thomas/Rozier Hayward/Smart Brown/Crowder Morris/Tatum Horford/Baynes
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Morris
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I'm really hoping Morris by a long shot.
When Crowder goes to the 4 it's a novelty, it's an off-speed pitch designed to get the opposing team to counter in a way that benefits the Celtics. Sometimes it works too.
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I was a little disappointed to find out Morris is a SF that can play some PF, similar to Crowder. Jae player 26% of his minutes at PF last year.
Morris is taller and about the same weight with a much better post up and mid-range game, while Crowder is the better three point shooter.
So who plays more minutes at the four.
I think that Horford will be the starter at the '4' and Crowder at the '3', just like last season. Then Baynes will fill in the role like Johnson did and Morris/Tatum are the replacements for Olynyk/Jerebko. Even tough the rotation below is more logical.
Anyhow, unless Morris disappoints I don't think Crowder will play much at PF.
Thomas/Rozier Hayward/Smart Brown/Crowder Morris/Tatum Horford/Baynes
This can't be. No way.
Horford is our center. Baynes cannot start, not talented enough.
Tatum cannot be counted on yet to be in the regular rotation.
Hayward will only play the 2 only occasionally.
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I think there are going to be A LOT of different units used by Brad. You'll see Morris at the 4, you'll see Crowder there, you'll see Hayward there, and Horford as well. I'm sure if Theis cracks the rotation, that's where we will find him.
All depends on the matchups. DA gave CBS a lot of versatility.
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Morris and Tatum and Hayward make Crowder obsolete
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I don't think Crowder is obsolete. Good teams have good backups. Crowder at worst is a good backup. However I see him starting in many lineups
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Crowder will likely still be starting, but at the 3, not 4. I expect Morris to exclusively play the 4, whereas Crowder may play more of his role of last year switching between the two positions.
Honestly, they are pretty comparable (quality) players - both on awesome contracts - and should get comparable time, but Morris strikes me more as a PF...despite what his rebounding #s may indicate.
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This poll is a little off. Crowder is the guy with experience at the four and overall on the Celtics.
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This poll is a little off. Crowder is the guy with experience at the four and overall on the Celtics.
He's also the size of shooting guards at 6'6", if you're being generous.
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This poll is a little off. Crowder is the guy with experience at the four and overall on the Celtics.
He's also the size of shooting guards at 6'6", if you're being generous.
there aren't many 6'11 power forwards running around the NBA anymore
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This poll is a little off. Crowder is the guy with experience at the four and overall on the Celtics.
Morris has more experience at the 4, he's played approximately 35% of his NBA minutes at PF/C. Other than in Detroit, both Houston and Phoenix played him more at the 4 than the 3.
Jae has played just 22% of his career at PF and only 13% last season, whereas Hayward has played PF 30% of the time for Utah last season.
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This poll is a little off. Crowder is the guy with experience at the four and overall on the Celtics.
Morris has more experience at the 4, he's played approximately 35% of his NBA minutes at PF/C. Other than in Detroit, both Houston and Phoenix played him more at the 4 than the 3.
Jae has played just 22% of his career at PF and only 13% last season, whereas Hayward has played PF 30% of the time for Utah last season.
the best part is, this is a great problem to have. We have 2 competent players, on great contracts, who can play the 4. Let them duke it out in training camp and see who comes out on top
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Morris
Crowder still has a chance to start
however you need someone to guard opposing best ball handler/PG. Which means Smart likely starts
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I don't want to see Crowder playing any more then occasional spot minutes at the 4, and even then only during special matchups that warrant it.
Crowder has the size and length of a SG. He can't protect the rim, can't rebound at a high level, and has absolutely zero post game. He also can't defend anybody bigger than around Gordon Hayward / Jimmy Butler size on anything resembling a consistent basis.
I'm not a big fan of Morris playing a full season at the PF spot either to be honest, since he has most of the same limitations as Crowder...but at least he has decent length and some semblance of an inside game, and some history of effectiveness defending bigs (e.g. Kevin Love) to show he is capable.
Still hate it as a permanent solution due to his complete lack of rebounding, which happens to be almost as bad as Horford's complete lack of rebounding.
Speaking of which, how the hell does Horford go from being a 9 RPG guy to being a 6 RPG guy in the space of 3 or 4 seasons? Because guys like KG, TD and Mourning remained dominant rebounders in to their mid-late 30s long after their athleticism faded, yet Horford at age 31/32 has somehow completely forgotten what a rebound is. I'm not asking for much - just give us a measly 8 rebounds a night and I will be content. Give us 9 rebounds a night and I'll be thrilled. But this 6.5 - 7 rebounds a night is pathetic for a 6'10" / 250 lbs big who is as physically strong and mobile as Horford is.
Worst part is that Hoford showed us in the playoffs that he CAN still grab those boards when he wants to, so what is the deal? Do we have another Rajon Rondo, who falls asleep at regular season time and only plays when the stakes are high? I expect more consistency then that from a $28m - $30m man.
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Hopefully, we never see Smart at the 3 again.
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I don't want to see Crowder playing any more then occasional spot minutes at the 4, and even then only during special matchups that warrant it.
Crowder has the size and length of a SG. He can't protect the rim, can't rebound at a high level, and has absolutely zero post game. He also can't defend anybody bigger than around Gordon Hayward / Jimmy Butler size on anything resembling a consistent basis.
I'm not a big fan of Morris playing a full season at the PF spot either to be honest, since he has most of the same limitations as Crowder...but at least he has decent length and some semblance of an inside game, and some history of effectiveness defending bigs (e.g. Kevin Love) to show he is capable.
Still hate it as a permanent solution due to his complete lack of rebounding, which happens to be almost as bad as Horford's complete lack of rebounding.
Speaking of which, how the hell does Horford go from being a 9 RPG guy to being a 6 RPG guy in the space of 3 or 4 seasons? Because guys like KG, TD and Mourning remained dominant rebounders in to their mid-late 30s long after their athleticism faded, yet Horford at age 31/32 has somehow completely forgotten what a rebound is. I'm not asking for much - just give us a measly 8 rebounds a night and I will be content. Give us 9 rebounds a night and I'll be thrilled. But this 6.5 - 7 rebounds a night is pathetic for a 6'10" / 250 lbs big who is as physically strong and mobile as Horford is.
Worst part is that Hoford showed us in the playoffs that he CAN still grab those boards when he wants to, so what is the deal? Do we have another Rajon Rondo, who falls asleep at regular season time and only plays when the stakes are high? I expect more consistency then that from a $28m - $30m man.
I attribute rebounding numbers to team style of play. Playing on the perimeter and switching to perimeter players on defense will usually drag rebounding numbers down. Horford and our other bigs don't crash the glass in a traditional sense but rather Release downcourt when a shot goes up it seems.
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I voted Morris. I think Jae may get traded sometime this year.
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I voted Morris. I think Jae may get traded sometime this year.
welcome
Marc Gasol
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I was a little disappointed to find out Morris is a SF that can play some PF, similar to Crowder. Jae player 26% of his minutes at PF last year.
I think the small-ball experiment with Crowder at the 4 had mixed results - although it saved the Chicago series. Brad said that the sample size was small but he believed in it.
Despite the difference in length, Crowder was far superior to Morris as a defensive rebounder last season, and whether you look at things through the traditional 1-5 lens or the big/swing/wing/ballhandler lens, that gives Jae an advantage.
If Jae is your starting 4, that's a problem. As a backup, it's a much better role for him. On defense he can also take quicker wings, and now that Bradley is gone he may well see more time at the "2" (or whatever we call that these days).
Morris is taller and about the same weight with a much better post up and mid-range game, while Crowder is the better three point shooter.
Better mid-range game for sure - but was it good? .447 between 10ft and the arc. Not a bad asset if you've got to get a shot, but a steady diet of it is offensive suicide.
Crowder is also a way better finisher (.739 at the rim is stellar), gets to the line a lot more, better FT shooter (though Morris is good).
Crowder is high-efficiency, low-usage.
I'm doubtful that we'll see many Morris post-ups; he's not real good at making a play.
Your point about Morris' length is a good one; that's the main thing that he's got going for him - not a small thing. They both body up and play physical defense.
So who plays more minutes at the four.
Beats me. Eventually Tatum, I'd guess, and he's got enough shot-creating skills that even more minutes than Jaylen got in his rookie year seems likely; and some of those will be at the swing/pf slot.
The dark horse, I guess, is Ojeleye - Brad was raving about his defense on bigger players in Summer League; but it would be quite an achievement for him to even crack the rotation in his rookie year.
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I'm doubtful that we'll see many Morris post-ups; he's not real good at making a play.
From what I've seen in highlights it looks like he has some high quality face up post moves. Do you mean he doesn't have a back to the basket game?
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I'm doubtful that we'll see many Morris post-ups; he's not real good at making a play.
From what I've seen in highlights it looks like he has some high quality face up post moves. Do you mean he doesn't have a back to the basket game?
No, I mean that he's not real good at finding open shooters and cutters.
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You guys know better than me, but, as far as I can see, Crowder is a three making any match up with him at four a potential bad matchup.
His minutes @ 4 last season related to Steven's doing his thing. Don't forget this 2016/17 trivia...who started at center and PF for a few games during the playoffs? His last name is Green and "his average minutes at the four" are dropping so low, he'll need to get them from another team.
I think Baynes gets a good number of center minutes. Horford gets more minutes at PF with Morris backing him up, leaving Jae Crowder with his BF Hayward to figure out SF. These problems are good.
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I was a little disappointed to find out Morris is a SF that can play some PF, similar to Crowder. Jae player 26% of his minutes at PF last year.
I think the small-ball experiment with Crowder at the 4 had mixed results - although it saved the Chicago series. Brad said that the sample size was small but he believed in it.
Despite the difference in length, Crowder was far superior to Morris as a defensive rebounder last season, and whether you look at things through the traditional 1-5 lens or the big/swing/wing/ballhandler lens, that gives Jae an advantage.
If Jae is your starting 4, that's a problem. As a backup, it's a much better role for him. On defense he can also take quicker wings, and now that Bradley is gone he may well see more time at the "2" (or whatever we call that these days).
Morris is taller and about the same weight with a much better post up and mid-range game, while Crowder is the better three point shooter.
Better mid-range game for sure - but was it good? .447 between 10ft and the arc. Not a bad asset if you've got to get a shot, but a steady diet of it is offensive suicide.
Crowder is also a way better finisher (.739 at the rim is stellar), gets to the line a lot more, better FT shooter (though Morris is good).
Crowder is high-efficiency, low-usage.
I'm doubtful that we'll see many Morris post-ups; he's not real good at making a play.
Your point about Morris' length is a good one; that's the main thing that he's got going for him - not a small thing. They both body up and play physical defense.
So who plays more minutes at the four.
Beats me. Eventually Tatum, I'd guess, and he's got enough shot-creating skills that even more minutes than Jaylen got in his rookie year seems likely; and some of those will be at the swing/pf slot.
The dark horse, I guess, is Ojeleye - Brad was raving about his defense on bigger players in Summer League; but it would be quite an achievement for him to even crack the rotation in his rookie year.
Tp Painted. Good points.
One thing about Morris on the Glass is playing next to Horford and playing next to one of the greatest rebounders in the world in Drummond could make a difference in his rebound % for sure.
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No, I mean that he's not real good at finding open shooters and cutters.
How do you know this? Just curious.
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There is no 4. There are Bigs-Wings-Ball Handlers. Crowder and Morris are wings although Morris can also be a Big in the right lineup.
It looks like it will take Celticsblog a long time to stop fitting people into the traditional 1-5 which is dying around the NBA. Welcome to 2017
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There is no 4. There are Bigs-Wings-Ball Handlers. Crowder and Morris are wings although Morris can also be a Big in the right lineup.
It looks like it will take Celticsblog a long time to stop fitting people into the traditional 1-5 which is dying around the NBA. Welcome to 2017
Brad's philosophy on this is cute but it's not 💯% true.
We drafted Yabu to be the ideal Stretch PF. We signed Baynes to play Center.
You should know that If Crowder is our starting PF that's not a great idea, you at the very least have to have more size as an option
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There is no 4. There are Bigs-Wings-Ball Handlers. Crowder and Morris are wings although Morris can also be a Big in the right lineup.
It looks like it will take Celticsblog a long time to stop fitting people into the traditional 1-5 which is dying around the NBA. Welcome to 2017
Yes, they have been "dying" since the mid-90s when half of Celticsblog wasn't even born yet. Welcome to the real world :D
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I have this gut feeling that Theis is going to make a strong case for heavy rotation minutes.
Perhaps ya'll are right in saying "ero-scrub" but dudes got a motor and some skills coach appreciates.
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The issue is that you can never tell how a guy's game will translate from college or Europe to the NBA. There are things about Theis that look useful, but there have been plenty of players who everyone thought would be great that never worked out. Likewise, there are guys that most thought had no shot that made it, like IT. The odds are that Theis will be a back of the bench guy, if we are lucky maybe more.
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There is no 4. There are Bigs-Wings-Ball Handlers. Crowder and Morris are wings although Morris can also be a Big in the right lineup.
It looks like it will take Celticsblog a long time to stop fitting people into the traditional 1-5 which is dying around the NBA. Welcome to 2017
Brad's philosophy on this is cute but it's not 💯% true.
We drafted Yabu to be the ideal Stretch PF. We signed Baynes to play Center.
You should know that If Crowder is our starting PF that's not a great idea, you at the very least have to have more size as an option
I understand your point, but I think the old 1-5 designations mean much less than they used to. The game has changed, some bigs are bigger than others, but few really play like an old school center. Most big men today play like a power forward. I agree size matters, but that doesn't mean that Brad's vision of ball handlers, wings and bigs is invalid.
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There is no 4. There are Bigs-Wings-Ball Handlers. Crowder and Morris are wings although Morris can also be a Big in the right lineup.
It looks like it will take Celticsblog a long time to stop fitting people into the traditional 1-5 which is dying around the NBA. Welcome to 2017
Brad's philosophy on this is cute but it's not 💯% true.
We drafted Yabu to be the ideal Stretch PF. We signed Baynes to play Center.
You should know that If Crowder is our starting PF that's not a great idea, you at the very least have to have more size as an option
Actually no. The reason why Stevens classifies them as such is because of their role on offense. Horford at the 4 and Amir at the 5, rather than think of it that way you can think of it as a 2-Big lineup. Horford at the 5 and Jerebko at the 4, its a Big and and a Swing.
On defense its different, they switch a lot and their primary assignment depends on matchups.
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There is no 4. There are Bigs-Wings-Ball Handlers. Crowder and Morris are wings although Morris can also be a Big in the right lineup.
It looks like it will take Celticsblog a long time to stop fitting people into the traditional 1-5 which is dying around the NBA. Welcome to 2017
You should explain this to Al Horford. He seems to disagree. I guess when 50 different basketball outlets rank the top 10 point guards for the 17-18 season, they will just indicate that point guard is obsolete. Draft Express should probably just shut down their website since clearly they are oblivious to this change as well.