CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Witch-King on July 16, 2017, 05:07:18 PM

Title: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Witch-King on July 16, 2017, 05:07:18 PM
Winning 60 or more games is no easy feat, but with players like Jimmy Butler and Paul George (maybe even Carmelo Anthony as well, but the Knicks weren't very competitive last season) heading out West, us improving our roster by adding Gordon Hayward and drafting Jayson Tatum and Semi Ojeleye, our returning players improving, etc. does this team have the manpower to win 60+ in a historically bad Eastern Conference?? I for one hope that the Celtics can claim the 1 seed again; I know that in Boston we don't celebrate playoff berths, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still care about defending our status as the top seed in the East, even if we're not considered favorites to come out of the East, yet. Your thoughts??
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Hank Finkel on July 16, 2017, 05:11:05 PM
The main thing is to close the gap between us and Cleveland. I think DA has done that. Now the players and coach have to go out and get it done.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Tr1boy on July 16, 2017, 05:13:42 PM
playoffs is the main thing that matters
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Witch-King on July 16, 2017, 05:15:29 PM
The main thing is to close the gap between us and Cleveland. I think DA has done that. Now the players and coach have to go out and get it done.

I for one am hoping that Carmelo chooses to go to Houston to play for a team that won more games than Cleveland did last season. We'll see though; I mean, the Cavs just signed Calderon but he doesn't sound like he's the guy who'd help them take out the Warriors next season.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Dino Pitino on July 16, 2017, 05:21:46 PM
Winning 60 or more games is no easy feat, but with players like Jimmy Butler and Paul George (maybe even Carmelo Anthony as well, but the Knicks weren't very competitive last season) heading out West, us improving our roster by adding Gordon Hayward and drafting Jayson Tatum and Semi Ojeleye, our returning players improving, etc. does this team have the manpower to win 60+ in a historically bad Eastern Conference?? I for one hope that the Celtics can claim the 1 seed again; I know that in Boston we don't celebrate playoff berths, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't still care about defending our status as the top seed in the East, even if we're not considered favorites to come out of the East, yet. Your thoughts??

Great point, 60 is in sight, and our scoring differential should be way higher, too. Last season we didn't get many blowouts, this season we'll get loads of them, season sweeps possible of half the conference.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: mef730 on July 16, 2017, 05:53:37 PM
It's possible, but unlikely. Moving from 53 wins to 60 is a huge leap. I'm looking for more like 55-57, which would still be commendable.

Mike
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Rosco917 on July 16, 2017, 08:36:08 PM
It all depends on the health of IT, and the team in general.

If the season opens and we have last years IT, we're in business. 58-60 games is a possibility. The reality is I'm suspicious of his present health. Sorry but NO new isn't good new in this situation.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: GratefulCs on July 16, 2017, 08:45:20 PM
It all depends on the health of IT, and the team in general.

If the season opens and we have last years IT, we're in business. 58-60 games is a possibility. The reality is I'm suspicious of his present health. Sorry but NO new isn't good new in this situation.
i tend to agree
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Who on July 16, 2017, 08:58:27 PM
Yes
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: slamtheking on July 16, 2017, 09:15:01 PM
I think 57-58 is not unrealistic based on a weaker East but there's a lot of tough teams out West they still have to play
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: GreenEnvy on July 16, 2017, 09:26:24 PM
It's possible, but unlikely. Moving from 53 wins to 60 is a huge leap. I'm looking for more like 55-57, which would still be commendable.

Mike

Without taking fit, chemistry, and health into the equation, we got better across the board.

I LOVE Bradley, but Hayward is better. Baynes is better than Amir. Morris and KO are similar impact-wise IMO, but Morris has more versatility, especially defensively.

Then you have this season's Jaylen vs last. I can't see how he's not improved. Same with Smart.

And now you have Tatum, who should be a RotY candidate if he gets the minutes.


All in all, this team is better than last year's 53-win team.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: safecracker on July 16, 2017, 09:35:24 PM
It's possible, but unlikely. Moving from 53 wins to 60 is a huge leap. I'm looking for more like 55-57, which would still be commendable.

Mike
Without taking fit, chemistry, and health into the equation, we got better across the board.
Fit, chemistry, and health are a vital part of the equation...
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Bobshot on July 16, 2017, 09:59:08 PM
I think they should improve up to 60 wins or close to it this year. They have a big advantage in a weak conference. They might even have enough to beat the Cavs in the playoffs. As usual, it all depends on injuries. IT has to be OK with his hip, and they have to be better defensively up front with Ainge's additions.

Danny has pretty much cleaned out last year's bigs except for Horford, and replaced them with tougher, more defensive players. He's also added scoring in Hayward and Morris. He has a nice combination of veterans and youth with upside in Tatum and Brown.

There has been a lot of conjecture about the starting 5. Safe to say it will include Hayward, Horford and a healthy IT. The other two guys are anybody's guess. But they have a lot of depth, and it's likely the lineup will change according to matchups.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: jambr380 on July 16, 2017, 10:01:15 PM
I am honestly expecting it. The Cs will be favorites in the vast majority of games they play and there are a lot more games against EC opponents than WC ones.

Assuming good luck with injuries and decent cohesiveness, we easily have the talent to reach 60 without pounding IT and Hayward into the ground. Our depth, while young, is a lot more exciting than other teams.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: GreenEnvy on July 16, 2017, 10:30:32 PM
It's possible, but unlikely. Moving from 53 wins to 60 is a huge leap. I'm looking for more like 55-57, which would still be commendable.

Mike
Without taking fit, chemistry, and health into the equation, we got better across the board.
Fit, chemistry, and health are a vital part of the equation...

And also impossible to predict in July.

In other words, we got better on paper.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: nickagneta on July 16, 2017, 10:39:41 PM
The only way this team wins 60+ games is if their top 10 rotational guys have excellent health all year. If Horford goes down for 10-12 games, IT misses a bunch because of his hip or any other important player goes down for a considerable amount of time, this team will have to turn to inexperienced NBA players. That means losses and no 60 win season.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: CelticsElite on July 16, 2017, 10:47:24 PM
The only way this team wins 60+ games is if their top 10 rotational guys have excellent health all year. If Horford goes down for 10-12 games, IT misses a bunch because of his hip or any other important player goes down for a considerable amount of time, this team will have to turn to inexperienced NBA players. That means losses and no 60 win season.
couldn't you say that about any really good team
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Dannys Chipotle Guy on July 16, 2017, 11:15:52 PM
Wouldn't be at all surprised if we started a bit slow like last year.

I expect us to play the games 30-80 at a 60 win pace.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: LilRip on July 17, 2017, 01:21:28 AM
On paper, yes. I think we win 60 :) I think we secure number 1 seed and this team, beat Cleveland in 7 games. Long live the king!
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Quetzalcoatl on July 17, 2017, 01:48:06 AM
With a stronger West, can we get the best record in the NBA?
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: CelticsElite on July 17, 2017, 02:00:20 AM
With a stronger West, can we get the best record in the NBA?
yes. Anythings possible. We're younger than all the top teams
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Somebody on July 17, 2017, 02:24:23 AM
Wouldn't be at all surprised if we started a bit slow like last year.

I expect us to play the games 30-80 at a 60 win pace.
My prediction is that we play games 30-80 at a 67 win pace or so.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: gouki88 on July 17, 2017, 02:25:44 AM
I reckon we should be expecting to win between 57-64, considering how good this team is and how weak the East is.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Somebody on July 17, 2017, 02:40:40 AM
I reckon we should be expecting to win between 57-64, considering how good this team is and how weak the East is.
Wow I was expecting 66 wins and a championship 8)
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: gouki88 on July 17, 2017, 03:02:54 AM
I reckon we should be expecting to win between 57-64, considering how good this team is and how weak the East is.
Wow I was expecting 66 wins and a championship 8)
The championship is a given!
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Somebody on July 17, 2017, 03:36:56 AM
I reckon we should be expecting to win between 57-64, considering how good this team is and how weak the East is.
Wow I was expecting 66 wins and a championship 8)
The championship is a given!
That's the spirit! Btw why did you leave the discord server Greece666 owns? :'(
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: gouki88 on July 17, 2017, 04:11:16 AM
I reckon we should be expecting to win between 57-64, considering how good this team is and how weak the East is.
Wow I was expecting 66 wins and a championship 8)
The championship is a given!
That's the spirit! Btw why did you leave the discord server Greece666 owns? :'(
I don't think I left ???

I just haven't been active on it, my bad ;D
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Somebody on July 17, 2017, 04:52:18 AM
I reckon we should be expecting to win between 57-64, considering how good this team is and how weak the East is.
Wow I was expecting 66 wins and a championship 8)
The championship is a given!
That's the spirit! Btw why did you leave the discord server Greece666 owns? :'(
I don't think I left ???

I just haven't been active on it, my bad ;D
Oh lol, Lakers fans are running rampant there, they're saying Jaylen will be a 6th man while Ingram will be a superstar >:(
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Androslav on July 17, 2017, 07:01:57 AM
With a stronger West, can we get the best record in the NBA?
Good logic.
Still, it is hard for me to imagine the Warriors winning less than 65 games.
Can we get to 65? I doubt.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Darío SpanishFan on July 17, 2017, 07:47:03 AM
I think this is too much (hopefully not), and I'm going to explain why and what the goals for the season should be.

We have to remember that we are a bit thin of experience if we have a couple of injuries in our ten-man rotation, we have many new players to adjust and we can't still know if/when Isaiah will be playing.

I think 60 games is a bit too much for these factors. Anything beyond the 53 wins we've had this season would be very successful if we develop our young players in the process. What we must focus on is playoffs, we should at least take the Cavaliers into 6 games in the ECF.

This, along with at least a high draft pick in 2018, is what would bring ringchasers and players taking less money to play with us in the next and final step of reconstruction-development.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: SHAQATTACK on July 17, 2017, 07:54:55 AM
IF IT had his hip fixed 60 is a,done deal.  Probably that flew,out the window with him procrastinating surgery .
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: CFAN38 on July 17, 2017, 08:23:08 AM
I'm not so confident that this teams wins more regular season games then they did last year. The combination of needing to build chemistry between new players, the large quantity of young players, and IT coming off of the hip injury could cause some earlier season losses.

I do think this team is more talented then last years and will be a much better match-up for the Cavs in the playoffs. 
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: nickagneta on July 17, 2017, 08:40:49 AM
The only way this team wins 60+ games is if their top 10 rotational guys have excellent health all year. If Horford goes down for 10-12 games, IT misses a bunch because of his hip or any other important player goes down for a considerable amount of time, this team will have to turn to inexperienced NBA players. That means losses and no 60 win season.
couldn't you say that about any really good team
Not really. Most really good teams won't win 60+ games, that's only for elite teams. And elite teams usually have 3 or sometimes 4 current or former All-Stars on their team and have very good, experienced benches. We have 3 All-Stars but an extremely inexperienced bench.

If the starting lineup is IT, Hayward, Crowder, Morris, Horford that means our entire bench...10 other players have...have a combined 11 years of NBA experience. If the starters aren't healthy its most likely we don't get anywhere near 60 wins
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on July 17, 2017, 08:48:43 AM
I'm not sure the East is really that much weaker.  I mean it isn't like Butler, George, and Millsap were on good teams.  Toronto should still be pretty good.  Washington should still be pretty good.  I expect Milwaukee to take a pretty decent jump into that group (i.e. high 40's, low 50's in wins).  Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Detroit should all be better and will basically replace Atlanta, Chicago, and Indiana in the standings.  Miami was on a 60 win pace for half the season and return their team (with the addition of KO).   

Boston is still pretty clearly the second best team in the East (though may again end up as the 1 seed), but I think this notion that the East got a lot worse is a stretch.  Some teams will move around, but I expect a pretty similar level of play from the East on the whole.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: nickagneta on July 17, 2017, 08:57:36 AM
IF IT had his hip fixed 60 is a,done deal.  Probably that flew,out the window with him procrastinating surgery .
Its been reported that IT will not need surgery and will be ready to go at the start of camp
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Surferdad on July 17, 2017, 09:27:20 AM
I'm not sure the East is really that much weaker.  I mean it isn't like Butler, George, and Millsap were on good teams.  Toronto should still be pretty good.  Washington should still be pretty good.  I expect Milwaukee to take a pretty decent jump into that group (i.e. high 40's, low 50's in wins).  Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Detroit should all be better and will basically replace Atlanta, Chicago, and Indiana in the standings.  Miami was on a 60 win pace for half the season and return their team (with the addition of KO).   

Boston is still pretty clearly the second best team in the East (though may again end up as the 1 seed), but I think this notion that the East got a lot worse is a stretch.  Some teams will move around, but I expect a pretty similar level of play from the East on the whole.
No sorry, that is pretty easy to disprove.  Just list out all the player movements so far in this off-season.  The vast majority of GOOD players who changed conferences went East to West with Hayward being a notable exception, followed distantly by JJ Reddick and Jeff Green.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: bdm860 on July 17, 2017, 09:39:18 AM
I'm not sure the East is really that much weaker.  I mean it isn't like Butler, George, and Millsap were on good teams.  Toronto should still be pretty good.  Washington should still be pretty good.  I expect Milwaukee to take a pretty decent jump into that group (i.e. high 40's, low 50's in wins).  Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Detroit should all be better and will basically replace Atlanta, Chicago, and Indiana in the standings.  Miami was on a 60 win pace for half the season and return their team (with the addition of KO).   

Boston is still pretty clearly the second best team in the East (though may again end up as the 1 seed), but I think this notion that the East got a lot worse is a stretch.  Some teams will move around, but I expect a pretty similar level of play from the East on the whole.

Not disagreeing with anything you're saying here, but I have an interesting tidbit about Miami.

On the 7/7 Lowe Post podcast, Tom Haberstroh was a guest (ESPN Insider), and regarding Miami he said he did the research and when you look at the 10 biggest surges in win % from the 1st half of the season to the 2nd half of the season over the last 20 years, that following season's record doesn't reflect the 2nd half prior season win % but rather the whole prior season win %.  So if you're trying to project what Miami will do this year, use the entire '17 season, not the 2nd half. (Both Lowe and Haberstroh said they expect high 40's out of Miami next year).

He then used Portland as the most recent example.  In 2016 they were 17-24 (34 win pace) in the first half of the season, and then 27-14 in the 2nd half of the season (54 win pace), finishing 44-38, then this year after bringing everyone back and adding to the team (Turner!) they ended up finishing 41-41.

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=19897425
Starts around 28 minute mark if anybody really cares (first 10 minutes talks about Bradley trade and C's which many here may be interested in as well).
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on July 17, 2017, 09:54:31 AM
I'm not sure the East is really that much weaker.  I mean it isn't like Butler, George, and Millsap were on good teams.  Toronto should still be pretty good.  Washington should still be pretty good.  I expect Milwaukee to take a pretty decent jump into that group (i.e. high 40's, low 50's in wins).  Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Detroit should all be better and will basically replace Atlanta, Chicago, and Indiana in the standings.  Miami was on a 60 win pace for half the season and return their team (with the addition of KO).   

Boston is still pretty clearly the second best team in the East (though may again end up as the 1 seed), but I think this notion that the East got a lot worse is a stretch.  Some teams will move around, but I expect a pretty similar level of play from the East on the whole.
No sorry, that is pretty easy to disprove.  Just list out all the player movements so far in this off-season.  The vast majority of GOOD players who changed conferences went East to West with Hayward being a notable exception, followed distantly by JJ Reddick and Jeff Green.
Good players on bad teams, doesn't alter the conference that much is the point I'm making.  Atlanta won 43 games.  Indiana won 42 games.  Chicago won 41 games.  Those teams were average teams.  Obviously the players that moved make Minnesota, Oklahoma City, and Denver better teams than they were and make those 3 mediocre teams in the East worse, but I think those mediocre teams are easily replaced by other mediocre teams in the East who got better.  Charlotte added Dwight Howard.  He makes them better.  Detroit got Bradley, he makes them better.  Miami added Olynyk to a team that closed on a 60 win pace for half the season.  They will be better.  Giannis will continue to get better and the Bucks should make another jump in wins.  The Jazz and Clippers were both 51 win teams and both will almost certainly be a lot worse next year (replaced in the standings by the Thunder and Wolves most likely). 

This notion that the East got worse and the West got better from top to bottom, I just don't buy.  The West had 3 great teams and 2 very good teams last year.  The West still has 3 great teams (Houston got even better) and might have 3 very good teams this year (or it might just be 2 very good teams like last year).  The bottom of the West is still going to be very bad though.  LA, Sacto, and Phoenix will rival Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Orlando as the worst teams in the league.   Dallas isn't going to be very good either.  Memphis is declining and lost some key vets (and still hasn't re-signed Green).  They will be mediocre at best. 
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on July 17, 2017, 09:55:37 AM
I'm not sure the East is really that much weaker.  I mean it isn't like Butler, George, and Millsap were on good teams.  Toronto should still be pretty good.  Washington should still be pretty good.  I expect Milwaukee to take a pretty decent jump into that group (i.e. high 40's, low 50's in wins).  Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Detroit should all be better and will basically replace Atlanta, Chicago, and Indiana in the standings.  Miami was on a 60 win pace for half the season and return their team (with the addition of KO).   

Boston is still pretty clearly the second best team in the East (though may again end up as the 1 seed), but I think this notion that the East got a lot worse is a stretch.  Some teams will move around, but I expect a pretty similar level of play from the East on the whole.

Not disagreeing with anything you're saying here, but I have an interesting tidbit about Miami.

On the 7/7 Lowe Post podcast, Tom Haberstroh was a guest (ESPN Insider), and regarding Miami he said he did the research and when you look at the 10 biggest surges in win % from the 1st half of the season to the 2nd half of the season over the last 20 years, that following season's record doesn't reflect the 2nd half prior season win % but rather the whole prior season win %.  So if you're trying to project what Miami will do this year, use the entire '17 season, not the 2nd half. (Both Lowe and Haberstroh said they expect high 40's out of Miami next year).

He then used Portland as the most recent example.  In 2016 they were 17-24 (34 win pace) in the first half of the season, and then 27-14 in the 2nd half of the season (54 win pace), finishing 44-38, then this year after bringing everyone back and adding to the team (Turner!) they ended up finishing 41-41.

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=19897425
Starts around 28 minute mark if anybody really cares (first 10 minutes talks about Bradley trade and C's which many here may be interested in as well).
I don't think Miami will win 60 games or anywhere near that, but I do think they are a pretty solidly above .500 and a playoff team by bringing everyone back and adding KO. 
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Darío SpanishFan on July 17, 2017, 09:55:38 AM
I'm not sure the East is really that much weaker.  I mean it isn't like Butler, George, and Millsap were on good teams.  Toronto should still be pretty good.  Washington should still be pretty good.  I expect Milwaukee to take a pretty decent jump into that group (i.e. high 40's, low 50's in wins).  Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Detroit should all be better and will basically replace Atlanta, Chicago, and Indiana in the standings.  Miami was on a 60 win pace for half the season and return their team (with the addition of KO).   

Boston is still pretty clearly the second best team in the East (though may again end up as the 1 seed), but I think this notion that the East got a lot worse is a stretch.  Some teams will move around, but I expect a pretty similar level of play from the East on the whole.

I don't think you can support that. The East was very bad, and it has become awful, talent-wise.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: nickagneta on July 17, 2017, 10:13:39 AM
I get what Moranis is saying. The mediocre teams in the East that lost stars will be worse and some less than mediocre teams will take their place making the conference as a whole about the same...recordwise.

Where I think his logic fails is that a mediocre team from the West will be a much better team than a mediocre team from the east. The top three teams in the West are going to be better than the best team in the East. The West's mediocre teams will be about as good as the top teams in the East. The bad teams in both conferences are bad, with the East having more bad teams.

So overall, yeah Moranis is right in a way given how the East will come out but there is a difference in overall quality between a 40 win or 50 win team in the East and a 40 or 50 win team in the West. The West's mediocre teams are just better teams than the East's making the West the better overall conference.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: dreamgreen on July 17, 2017, 10:19:29 AM
It's possible but they would have to gel right out of the gate add to that I don't know what is going on with IT injury wise. I'd say it's more likely they win 54-57.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: RockinRyA on July 17, 2017, 10:36:14 AM
I'm not sure the East is really that much weaker.  I mean it isn't like Butler, George, and Millsap were on good teams.  Toronto should still be pretty good.  Washington should still be pretty good.  I expect Milwaukee to take a pretty decent jump into that group (i.e. high 40's, low 50's in wins).  Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Detroit should all be better and will basically replace Atlanta, Chicago, and Indiana in the standings.  Miami was on a 60 win pace for half the season and return their team (with the addition of KO).   

Boston is still pretty clearly the second best team in the East (though may again end up as the 1 seed), but I think this notion that the East got a lot worse is a stretch.  Some teams will move around, but I expect a pretty similar level of play from the East on the whole.
No sorry, that is pretty easy to disprove.  Just list out all the player movements so far in this off-season.  The vast majority of GOOD players who changed conferences went East to West with Hayward being a notable exception, followed distantly by JJ Reddick and Jeff Green.
Good players on bad teams, doesn't alter the conference that much is the point I'm making.  Atlanta won 43 games.  Indiana won 42 games.  Chicago won 41 games.  Those teams were average teams.  Obviously the players that moved make Minnesota, Oklahoma City, and Denver better teams than they were and make those 3 mediocre teams in the East worse, but I think those mediocre teams are easily replaced by other mediocre teams in the East who got better.  Charlotte added Dwight Howard.  He makes them better.  Detroit got Bradley, he makes them better.  Miami added Olynyk to a team that closed on a 60 win pace for half the season.  They will be better.  Giannis will continue to get better and the Bucks should make another jump in wins.  The Jazz and Clippers were both 51 win teams and both will almost certainly be a lot worse next year (replaced in the standings by the Thunder and Wolves most likely). 

This notion that the East got worse and the West got better from top to bottom, I just don't buy.  The West had 3 great teams and 2 very good teams last year.  The West still has 3 great teams (Houston got even better) and might have 3 very good teams this year (or it might just be 2 very good teams like last year).  The bottom of the West is still going to be very bad though.  LA, Sacto, and Phoenix will rival Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Orlando as the worst teams in the league.   Dallas isn't going to be very good either.  Memphis is declining and lost some key vets (and still hasn't re-signed Green).  They will be mediocre at best.

Actually it does. You arent just playing Washington-Cleveland-Raptors. The mere fact that some of the East teams got weaker means there are better chances of sweeping them, which correlate to what we are talking about here, additional wins.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on July 17, 2017, 10:59:17 AM
I get what Moranis is saying. The mediocre teams in the East that lost stars will be worse and some less than mediocre teams will take their place making the conference as a whole about the same...recordwise.

Where I think his logic fails is that a mediocre team from the West will be a much better team than a mediocre team from the east. The top three teams in the West are going to be better than the best team in the East. The West's mediocre teams will be about as good as the top teams in the East. The bad teams in both conferences are bad, with the East having more bad teams.

So overall, yeah Moranis is right in a way given how the East will come out but there is a difference in overall quality between a 40 win or 50 win team in the East and a 40 or 50 win team in the West. The West's mediocre teams are just better teams than the East's making the West the better overall conference.
True, but that was the same last year.  The top 3 teams in the West last year all had better records than Boston.  The 4th and 5th team in the West last year (Utah and LAC) both are going to be much worse and will be replaced both in record and strength by OKC and Minnesota.  I just don't really see a whole lot of difference from last year to this year.  The West is still the better conference, but I don't think the East is really any worse this year than last year.  A team like Philly, for example, is going to add the last two # 1 picks and presumably will have Embiid for more than 31 games (and added Redick, Amir, and Bayless will play more than 3 games).  Accounting for that, is Philly this year going to be any different than Atlanta, Indiana, or Chicago last year.  I just don't see it.  And the four top seeds in the East, will all still be basically the same teams or better than last years versions and I fully expect Milwaukee to make the jump into that same general range. 

And I will say again just to be clear, the West is much better than the East.  I just think it was last year at roughly the same amount as it will be this year.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: nickagneta on July 17, 2017, 11:48:47 AM
I get what Moranis is saying. The mediocre teams in the East that lost stars will be worse and some less than mediocre teams will take their place making the conference as a whole about the same...recordwise.

Where I think his logic fails is that a mediocre team from the West will be a much better team than a mediocre team from the east. The top three teams in the West are going to be better than the best team in the East. The West's mediocre teams will be about as good as the top teams in the East. The bad teams in both conferences are bad, with the East having more bad teams.

So overall, yeah Moranis is right in a way given how the East will come out but there is a difference in overall quality between a 40 win or 50 win team in the East and a 40 or 50 win team in the West. The West's mediocre teams are just better teams than the East's making the West the better overall conference.
True, but that was the same last year.  The top 3 teams in the West last year all had better records than Boston.  The 4th and 5th team in the West last year (Utah and LAC) both are going to be much worse and will be replaced both in record and strength by OKC and Minnesota.  I just don't really see a whole lot of difference from last year to this year.  The West is still the better conference, but I don't think the East is really any worse this year than last year.  A team like Philly, for example, is going to add the last two # 1 picks and presumably will have Embiid for more than 31 games (and added Redick, Amir, and Bayless will play more than 3 games).  Accounting for that, is Philly this year going to be any different than Atlanta, Indiana, or Chicago last year.  I just don't see it.  And the four top seeds in the East, will all still be basically the same teams or better than last years versions and I fully expect Milwaukee to make the jump into that same general range. 

And I will say again just to be clear, the West is much better than the East.  I just think it was last year at roughly the same amount as it will be this year.
Yup...I agree.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: tstorey_97 on July 17, 2017, 12:30:01 PM
In the last two seasons the Celtics are 8-32 (4-16 each season) against the Cavs, Spurs, GSW, Rox, OKC, Toronto. I may have missed by a game or two, but, this is about right.

Last season 53-29 overall
against top teams 4-16
Thus 49-13 against the weaker teams.

Seems like 7 more wins is doable, but, are all of the lesser teams going to remain flat? To hit 60 Celtics will need to be legit better and I think they are, but, where will the 7 new wins come from?

2018 season 60-22 overall
against top teams 6-14(?)
Thus 54-8 against the weaker teams.

Being good and being dominant are two different things...54-8 against "everybody else" is tough.

My guess is 54 -28 ...far from shabby.

Finally, the record is reliant on Thomas' health. Zero word on his status as of today except, he is not on the court.

Be interesting to see which PG's might be invited to camp this year. Can't wait for October 17th or whenever the season starts.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: nickagneta on July 17, 2017, 12:41:22 PM
In the last two seasons the Celtics are 8-32 (4-16 each season) against the Cavs, Spurs, GSW, Rox, OKC, Toronto. I may have missed by a game or two, but, this is about right.

Last season 53-29 overall
against top teams 4-16
Thus 49-13 against the weaker teams.

Seems like 7 more wins is doable, but, are all of the lesser teams going to remain flat? To hit 60 Celtics will need to be legit better and I think they are, but, where will the 7 new wins come from?

2018 season 60-22 overall
against top teams 6-14(?)
Thus 54-8 against the weaker teams.

Being good and being dominant are two different things...54-8 against "everybody else" is tough.

My guess is 54 -28 ...far from shabby.

Finally, the record is reliant on Thomas' health. Zero word on his status as of today except, he is not on the court.

Be interesting to see which PG's might be invited to camp this year. Can't wait for October 17th or whenever the season starts.

Jay King reported 2 weeks ago that Thomas would not need surgery and would be ready for the 2017-18 NBA season.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: celticsclay on July 17, 2017, 01:01:38 PM
In the last two seasons the Celtics are 8-32 (4-16 each season) against the Cavs, Spurs, GSW, Rox, OKC, Toronto. I may have missed by a game or two, but, this is about right.

Last season 53-29 overall
against top teams 4-16
Thus 49-13 against the weaker teams.

Seems like 7 more wins is doable, but, are all of the lesser teams going to remain flat? To hit 60 Celtics will need to be legit better and I think they are, but, where will the 7 new wins come from?

2018 season 60-22 overall
against top teams 6-14(?)
Thus 54-8 against the weaker teams.

Being good and being dominant are two different things...54-8 against "everybody else" is tough.

My guess is 54 -28 ...far from shabby.

Finally, the record is reliant on Thomas' health. Zero word on his status as of today except, he is not on the court.

Be interesting to see which PG's might be invited to camp this year. Can't wait for October 17th or whenever the season starts.

Is this just a random collection of teams we struggled against some? OKC was like the 7th seed and the Wizards had a very solid record. Why OKC and not Washington or Clippers or Jazz?
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on July 17, 2017, 01:05:15 PM
In the last two seasons the Celtics are 8-32 (4-16 each season) against the Cavs, Spurs, GSW, Rox, OKC, Toronto. I may have missed by a game or two, but, this is about right.

Last season 53-29 overall
against top teams 4-16
Thus 49-13 against the weaker teams.

Seems like 7 more wins is doable, but, are all of the lesser teams going to remain flat? To hit 60 Celtics will need to be legit better and I think they are, but, where will the 7 new wins come from?

2018 season 60-22 overall
against top teams 6-14(?)
Thus 54-8 against the weaker teams.

Being good and being dominant are two different things...54-8 against "everybody else" is tough.

My guess is 54 -28 ...far from shabby.

Finally, the record is reliant on Thomas' health. Zero word on his status as of today except, he is not on the court.

Be interesting to see which PG's might be invited to camp this year. Can't wait for October 17th or whenever the season starts.

Is this just a random collection of teams we struggled against some? OKC was like the 7th seed and the Wizards had a very solid record. Why OKC and not Washington or Clippers or Jazz?
OKC has won 55 and 47 games the last two seasons.  The Clippers have won more than that, however the Clippers aren't going to be very good this year (and neither are the Jazz), while the Thunder should be better than 47 with the addition of George. 
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: celticsclay on July 17, 2017, 01:07:38 PM
I'm not sure the East is really that much weaker.  I mean it isn't like Butler, George, and Millsap were on good teams.  Toronto should still be pretty good.  Washington should still be pretty good.  I expect Milwaukee to take a pretty decent jump into that group (i.e. high 40's, low 50's in wins).  Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Detroit should all be better and will basically replace Atlanta, Chicago, and Indiana in the standings.  Miami was on a 60 win pace for half the season and return their team (with the addition of KO).   

Boston is still pretty clearly the second best team in the East (though may again end up as the 1 seed), but I think this notion that the East got a lot worse is a stretch.  Some teams will move around, but I expect a pretty similar level of play from the East on the whole.
No sorry, that is pretty easy to disprove.  Just list out all the player movements so far in this off-season.  The vast majority of GOOD players who changed conferences went East to West with Hayward being a notable exception, followed distantly by JJ Reddick and Jeff Green.
Good players on bad teams, doesn't alter the conference that much is the point I'm making.  Atlanta won 43 games.  Indiana won 42 games.  Chicago won 41 games.  Those teams were average teams.  Obviously the players that moved make Minnesota, Oklahoma City, and Denver better teams than they were and make those 3 mediocre teams in the East worse, but I think those mediocre teams are easily replaced by other mediocre teams in the East who got better.  Charlotte added Dwight Howard.  He makes them better.  Detroit got Bradley, he makes them better.  Miami added Olynyk to a team that closed on a 60 win pace for half the season.  They will be better.  Giannis will continue to get better and the Bucks should make another jump in wins.  The Jazz and Clippers were both 51 win teams and both will almost certainly be a lot worse next year (replaced in the standings by the Thunder and Wolves most likely). 

This notion that the East got worse and the West got better from top to bottom, I just don't buy.  The West had 3 great teams and 2 very good teams last year.  The West still has 3 great teams (Houston got even better) and might have 3 very good teams this year (or it might just be 2 very good teams like last year).  The bottom of the West is still going to be very bad though.  LA, Sacto, and Phoenix will rival Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Orlando as the worst teams in the league.   Dallas isn't going to be very good either.  Memphis is declining and lost some key vets (and still hasn't re-signed Green).  They will be mediocre at best.

Kind of weird to argue the east isn't significantly weaker. Milsap is still a legit all-star. Butler and George are probably top 15 players in the game. They all went to East to West (which also led their teams to get rid of solid veteran players like Teague and Rondo) Indiana, Chicago and Atlanta completely gutted their teams. They went from teams that were tough to go in an win on their home court to teams that are expected to win 25 games. Last year you would think the Celtics might go 8-4 or 7-5 against. This year it would be pretty bad if the Celtics don't go 10-2 in their 12 games against those rebuilding teams.

Minnesota has gone from a lottery team to a team that is expected to win 48 games. OKC is now an upper echelon team..   
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: celticsclay on July 17, 2017, 01:08:40 PM
In the last two seasons the Celtics are 8-32 (4-16 each season) against the Cavs, Spurs, GSW, Rox, OKC, Toronto. I may have missed by a game or two, but, this is about right.

Last season 53-29 overall
against top teams 4-16
Thus 49-13 against the weaker teams.

Seems like 7 more wins is doable, but, are all of the lesser teams going to remain flat? To hit 60 Celtics will need to be legit better and I think they are, but, where will the 7 new wins come from?

2018 season 60-22 overall
against top teams 6-14(?)
Thus 54-8 against the weaker teams.

Being good and being dominant are two different things...54-8 against "everybody else" is tough.

My guess is 54 -28 ...far from shabby.

Finally, the record is reliant on Thomas' health. Zero word on his status as of today except, he is not on the court.

Be interesting to see which PG's might be invited to camp this year. Can't wait for October 17th or whenever the season starts.

Is this just a random collection of teams we struggled against some? OKC was like the 7th seed and the Wizards had a very solid record. Why OKC and not Washington or Clippers or Jazz?
OKC has won 55 and 47 games the last two seasons.  The Clippers have won more than that, however the Clippers aren't going to be very good this year (and neither are the Jazz), while the Thunder should be better than 47 with the addition of George.

That doesn't really the answer of why he chose these teams at all...
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Darío SpanishFan on July 17, 2017, 01:09:19 PM
In the last two seasons the Celtics are 8-32 (4-16 each season) against the Cavs, Spurs, GSW, Rox, OKC, Toronto. I may have missed by a game or two, but, this is about right.

Last season 53-29 overall
against top teams 4-16
Thus 49-13 against the weaker teams.

Seems like 7 more wins is doable, but, are all of the lesser teams going to remain flat? To hit 60 Celtics will need to be legit better and I think they are, but, where will the 7 new wins come from?

2018 season 60-22 overall
against top teams 6-14(?)
Thus 54-8 against the weaker teams.

Being good and being dominant are two different things...54-8 against "everybody else" is tough.

My guess is 54 -28 ...far from shabby.

Finally, the record is reliant on Thomas' health. Zero word on his status as of today except, he is not on the court.

Be interesting to see which PG's might be invited to camp this year. Can't wait for October 17th or whenever the season starts.

Is this just a random collection of teams we struggled against some? OKC was like the 7th seed and the Wizards had a very solid record. Why OKC and not Washington or Clippers or Jazz?

I don't think it is random at all. They are now the best teams in the league, so it is fair to separate the measure into:
-Teams worse than us.
-Teams even or better than us.

I think it's a very interesting stat.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: bdm860 on July 17, 2017, 01:18:11 PM
In the last two seasons the Celtics are 8-32 (4-16 each season) against the Cavs, Spurs, GSW, Rox, OKC, Toronto. I may have missed by a game or two, but, this is about right.

Last season 53-29 overall
against top teams 4-16
Thus 49-13 against the weaker teams.

Seems like 7 more wins is doable, but, are all of the lesser teams going to remain flat? To hit 60 Celtics will need to be legit better and I think they are, but, where will the 7 new wins come from?

2018 season 60-22 overall
against top teams 6-14(?)
Thus 54-8 against the weaker teams.

Being good and being dominant are two different things...54-8 against "everybody else" is tough.

My guess is 54 -28 ...far from shabby.

Finally, the record is reliant on Thomas' health. Zero word on his status as of today except, he is not on the court.

Be interesting to see which PG's might be invited to camp this year. Can't wait for October 17th or whenever the season starts.

Is this just a random collection of teams we struggled against some? OKC was like the 7th seed and the Wizards had a very solid record. Why OKC and not Washington or Clippers or Jazz?

I don't think it is random at all. They are now the best teams in the league, so it is fair to separate the measure into:
-Teams worse than us.
-Teams even or better than us.

I think it's a very interesting stat.

What would the C's record against an 8th seeded Houston team in 2016 or the 7th seeded OKC team last year have to do with their 2018 outlook?

The combined group of teams listed here doesn't represent the best teams in '16 or '17 (more like the 5 best + 1 random).

Also the W/L's are off too, C's were 5-10 against those teams in '16 and 4-12 in '17 (probably just put total games in the loss column by mistake).
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: celticsclay on July 17, 2017, 01:21:06 PM
In the last two seasons the Celtics are 8-32 (4-16 each season) against the Cavs, Spurs, GSW, Rox, OKC, Toronto. I may have missed by a game or two, but, this is about right.

Last season 53-29 overall
against top teams 4-16
Thus 49-13 against the weaker teams.

Seems like 7 more wins is doable, but, are all of the lesser teams going to remain flat? To hit 60 Celtics will need to be legit better and I think they are, but, where will the 7 new wins come from?

2018 season 60-22 overall
against top teams 6-14(?)
Thus 54-8 against the weaker teams.

Being good and being dominant are two different things...54-8 against "everybody else" is tough.

My guess is 54 -28 ...far from shabby.

Finally, the record is reliant on Thomas' health. Zero word on his status as of today except, he is not on the court.

Be interesting to see which PG's might be invited to camp this year. Can't wait for October 17th or whenever the season starts.

Is this just a random collection of teams we struggled against some? OKC was like the 7th seed and the Wizards had a very solid record. Why OKC and not Washington or Clippers or Jazz?

I don't think it is random at all. They are now the best teams in the league, so it is fair to separate the measure into:
-Teams worse than us.
-Teams even or better than us.

I think it's a very interesting stat.

What would the C's record against an 8th seeded Houston team in 2016 or the 7th seeded OKC team last year have to do with their 2018 outlook?

The combined group of teams listed here doesn't represent the best teams in '16 or '17 (more like the 5 best + 1 random).

Also the W/L's are off too, C's were 5-10 against those teams in '16 and 4-12 in '17 (probably just put total games in the loss column by mistake).

Yes this is 100% my point...
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on July 17, 2017, 01:26:47 PM
I'm not sure the East is really that much weaker.  I mean it isn't like Butler, George, and Millsap were on good teams.  Toronto should still be pretty good.  Washington should still be pretty good.  I expect Milwaukee to take a pretty decent jump into that group (i.e. high 40's, low 50's in wins).  Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Detroit should all be better and will basically replace Atlanta, Chicago, and Indiana in the standings.  Miami was on a 60 win pace for half the season and return their team (with the addition of KO).   

Boston is still pretty clearly the second best team in the East (though may again end up as the 1 seed), but I think this notion that the East got a lot worse is a stretch.  Some teams will move around, but I expect a pretty similar level of play from the East on the whole.
No sorry, that is pretty easy to disprove.  Just list out all the player movements so far in this off-season.  The vast majority of GOOD players who changed conferences went East to West with Hayward being a notable exception, followed distantly by JJ Reddick and Jeff Green.
Good players on bad teams, doesn't alter the conference that much is the point I'm making.  Atlanta won 43 games.  Indiana won 42 games.  Chicago won 41 games.  Those teams were average teams.  Obviously the players that moved make Minnesota, Oklahoma City, and Denver better teams than they were and make those 3 mediocre teams in the East worse, but I think those mediocre teams are easily replaced by other mediocre teams in the East who got better.  Charlotte added Dwight Howard.  He makes them better.  Detroit got Bradley, he makes them better.  Miami added Olynyk to a team that closed on a 60 win pace for half the season.  They will be better.  Giannis will continue to get better and the Bucks should make another jump in wins.  The Jazz and Clippers were both 51 win teams and both will almost certainly be a lot worse next year (replaced in the standings by the Thunder and Wolves most likely). 

This notion that the East got worse and the West got better from top to bottom, I just don't buy.  The West had 3 great teams and 2 very good teams last year.  The West still has 3 great teams (Houston got even better) and might have 3 very good teams this year (or it might just be 2 very good teams like last year).  The bottom of the West is still going to be very bad though.  LA, Sacto, and Phoenix will rival Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Orlando as the worst teams in the league.   Dallas isn't going to be very good either.  Memphis is declining and lost some key vets (and still hasn't re-signed Green).  They will be mediocre at best.

Kind of weird to argue the east isn't significantly weaker. Milsap is still a legit all-star. Butler and George are probably top 15 players in the game. They all went to East to West (which also led their teams to get rid of solid veteran players like Teague and Rondo) Indiana, Chicago and Atlanta completely gutted their teams. They went from teams that were tough to go in an win on their home court to teams that are expected to win 25 games. Last year you would think the Celtics might go 8-4 or 7-5 against. This year it would be pretty bad if the Celtics don't go 10-2 in their 12 games against those rebuilding teams.

Minnesota has gone from a lottery team to a team that is expected to win 48 games. OKC is now an upper echelon team..
Boston should be better.  The Cavs, Raptors, and Wizards should all be about that the same.  That is the top 4 teams from last year.  I expect Milwaukee to also be in the upper 40's or lower 50's in the wins (that seems like a natural progression for them).  If Milwaukee makes that jump and the other 4 teams remain the same, that means the top 5 in the East will be better this year than last year. 

I would expect 3 of these 4 teams to all make the playoffs in the low to mid 40's wins - Charlotte, Detroit, Miami, and Philadelphia.  Last year 5-9 all ended with 41 to 43 wins.  I expect that to happen with those 4 teams taking up 6-9 in that same general win range as the teams in those slots did last year. 

Assuming the Knicks keep Anthony, I would expect them to be a mid 30's win team (I wouldn't be totally surprised to see them get into the 40's either, though don't think it happens).  Orlando should take a jump into the mid 30's as well.  I don't think Indiana drops off the map and should be a mid to low 30's win team.  Yes losing George and Teague hurts, but they did add Oladipo, Bogdanovic, Joseph, Sabonis, and the 2 rookies (Leaf and Anigbou), add them to Turner, Young, Allen, Jefferson, etc. and that team isn't a dreg.  They shouldn't get to 42, but under 30 would surprise me. 

Chicago looks like a bad team, especially if they let Wade go and Lavine misses a good chunk of the season, but I don't think they are a historically bad type team.  They are probably a mid to low 20's win team. 

Brooklyn is probably a 20ish win team again.  They've added some talent and losing Lopez might actually help their team on the whole as he was really really bad defensively.

Atlanta looks like the clear dreg and depending on how they fill out their roster (I think they have like 9 players under contract) they might be a historically bad team.   

So I believe the top 5 in the East this year, will actually be stronger than the top 5 in the East were last year.  I think the rest of the Eastern playoff teams (and the 9th team) will generally be the same level of team as last year.  I think there will still be some teams winning in the 30's and some teams winning in the 20's.  To me the fact that Atlanta will now be terrible (and the worst team in either season), doesn't really alter the conference on the whole. 

I just don't see this precipitous drop off in the East on the whole.  3 average teams are now bad and 3 bad teams are now average.  That just doesn't move the needle. 
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: celticsclay on July 17, 2017, 01:44:49 PM
I'm not sure the East is really that much weaker.  I mean it isn't like Butler, George, and Millsap were on good teams.  Toronto should still be pretty good.  Washington should still be pretty good.  I expect Milwaukee to take a pretty decent jump into that group (i.e. high 40's, low 50's in wins).  Philadelphia, Charlotte, and Detroit should all be better and will basically replace Atlanta, Chicago, and Indiana in the standings.  Miami was on a 60 win pace for half the season and return their team (with the addition of KO).   

Boston is still pretty clearly the second best team in the East (though may again end up as the 1 seed), but I think this notion that the East got a lot worse is a stretch.  Some teams will move around, but I expect a pretty similar level of play from the East on the whole.
No sorry, that is pretty easy to disprove.  Just list out all the player movements so far in this off-season.  The vast majority of GOOD players who changed conferences went East to West with Hayward being a notable exception, followed distantly by JJ Reddick and Jeff Green.
Good players on bad teams, doesn't alter the conference that much is the point I'm making.  Atlanta won 43 games.  Indiana won 42 games.  Chicago won 41 games.  Those teams were average teams.  Obviously the players that moved make Minnesota, Oklahoma City, and Denver better teams than they were and make those 3 mediocre teams in the East worse, but I think those mediocre teams are easily replaced by other mediocre teams in the East who got better.  Charlotte added Dwight Howard.  He makes them better.  Detroit got Bradley, he makes them better.  Miami added Olynyk to a team that closed on a 60 win pace for half the season.  They will be better.  Giannis will continue to get better and the Bucks should make another jump in wins.  The Jazz and Clippers were both 51 win teams and both will almost certainly be a lot worse next year (replaced in the standings by the Thunder and Wolves most likely). 

This notion that the East got worse and the West got better from top to bottom, I just don't buy.  The West had 3 great teams and 2 very good teams last year.  The West still has 3 great teams (Houston got even better) and might have 3 very good teams this year (or it might just be 2 very good teams like last year).  The bottom of the West is still going to be very bad though.  LA, Sacto, and Phoenix will rival Brooklyn, Atlanta, and Orlando as the worst teams in the league.   Dallas isn't going to be very good either.  Memphis is declining and lost some key vets (and still hasn't re-signed Green).  They will be mediocre at best.

Kind of weird to argue the east isn't significantly weaker. Milsap is still a legit all-star. Butler and George are probably top 15 players in the game. They all went to East to West (which also led their teams to get rid of solid veteran players like Teague and Rondo) Indiana, Chicago and Atlanta completely gutted their teams. They went from teams that were tough to go in an win on their home court to teams that are expected to win 25 games. Last year you would think the Celtics might go 8-4 or 7-5 against. This year it would be pretty bad if the Celtics don't go 10-2 in their 12 games against those rebuilding teams.

Minnesota has gone from a lottery team to a team that is expected to win 48 games. OKC is now an upper echelon team..
Boston should be better.  The Cavs, Raptors, and Wizards should all be about that the same.  That is the top 4 teams from last year.  I expect Milwaukee to also be in the upper 40's or lower 50's in the wins (that seems like a natural progression for them).  If Milwaukee makes that jump and the other 4 teams remain the same, that means the top 5 in the East will be better this year than last year. 

I would expect 3 of these 4 teams to all make the playoffs in the low to mid 40's wins - Charlotte, Detroit, Miami, and Philadelphia.  Last year 5-9 all ended with 41 to 43 wins.  I expect that to happen with those 4 teams taking up 6-9 in that same general win range as the teams in those slots did last year. 

Assuming the Knicks keep Anthony, I would expect them to be a mid 30's win team (I wouldn't be totally surprised to see them get into the 40's either, though don't think it happens).  Orlando should take a jump into the mid 30's as well.  I don't think Indiana drops off the map and should be a mid to low 30's win team.  Yes losing George and Teague hurts, but they did add Oladipo, Bogdanovic, Joseph, Sabonis, and the 2 rookies (Leaf and Anigbou), add them to Turner, Young, Allen, Jefferson, etc. and that team isn't a dreg.  They shouldn't get to 42, but under 30 would surprise me. 

Chicago looks like a bad team, especially if they let Wade go and Lavine misses a good chunk of the season, but I don't think they are a historically bad type team.  They are probably a mid to low 20's win team. 

Brooklyn is probably a 20ish win team again.  They've added some talent and losing Lopez might actually help their team on the whole as he was really really bad defensively.

Atlanta looks like the clear dreg and depending on how they fill out their roster (I think they have like 9 players under contract) they might be a historically bad team.   

So I believe the top 5 in the East this year, will actually be stronger than the top 5 in the East were last year.  I think the rest of the Eastern playoff teams (and the 9th team) will generally be the same level of team as last year.  I think there will still be some teams winning in the 30's and some teams winning in the 20's.  To me the fact that Atlanta will now be terrible (and the worst team in either season), doesn't really alter the conference on the whole. 

I just don't see this precipitous drop off in the East on the whole.  3 average teams are now bad and 3 bad teams are now average.  That just doesn't move the needle.

I really am pretty baffled you think that the Pacers are going to be a .500 team. Al Jefferson is not at basketball at anymore. Lavoy Allen never was. Thad Young has made a career playing for really bad basketball teams. Sabonis and rookies are not going to make an impact on anything.
Their best player is Myles Turner and their second best player is Oladipo.

Cleveland and Toronto didn't completely nose dive, but they are getting worse. Cleveland has been unable to add any badly needed youth to their bench and Lebron is definitely not getting better at 32 years old. Toronto lost a number of rotation players (Tucker, Patterson, Joseph) and seem to have only gotten Miles back for them and whatever improvements they may get from Powell or other young players probably is offset by Lowry continuing to age and get more banged up.

I don't really know how you think the Knicks could win 40 games either. They won 31 last year and have an odd collection of declining vets (Noah, Carmello), as of now it is unclear who plays point guard and most people don't feel like Hardaway Jr. is going to move any needles. Is this all predicated on KP making a big leap?
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on July 17, 2017, 02:11:53 PM
I said Indiana would be a mid to low 30's win team.  That doesn't make them .500.

The Knicks won 31 games last year.  They will likely lose Rose, but I would expect Noah to play more than 46, think KP will not only improve but play more than 65 games, think the Anthony distraction will be gone (if they keep him), they will stop trying to play the stupid triangle offense, Hernangomez, Kuzminskas, and O'Quinn should all be better and with more consistent playing time, Hardaway may be overpaid but he is an upgrade at SG (and pushes Lee to the bench), and who knows what happens with Ntilikina.  The Knicks only have 11 players under contract for next year, so they will still make some moves.  Obviously if they trade Anthony, I think they will go into full bore rebuilding, but if not I frankly wouldn't be surprised to see them bring Rose back for another year or make other moves of that nature. 

Toronto only had Ibaka for 23 games last year.  A full season with him should help the overall quality of the team.  I think Siacam, Poetzl, and Nogueira are more than capable bench bigs.  Powell should have no issues as the starting SF.  They didn't really replace Joseph, Tucker, or Carroll, though they do have still have some open roster spots to fill in the bench.  They should still be a 50+ win team. 

The Cavs are built on their big 4, who are all in their prime (though James is obviously on the tail end of his).  Unless James has a month or more long injury for the first time in his career, they will still be a 50+ win team.  They won't push for the 1 seed because they have no reason to.  Vegas has them as a pretty large favorite to win the East for a reason (even though Vegas predicts the C's to have as many or more wins than the Cavs). 
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: celticsclay on July 17, 2017, 02:43:53 PM
I said Indiana would be a mid to low 30's win team.  That doesn't make them .500.

The Knicks won 31 games last year.  They will likely lose Rose, but I would expect Noah to play more than 46, think KP will not only improve but play more than 65 games, think the Anthony distraction will be gone (if they keep him), they will stop trying to play the stupid triangle offense, Hernangomez, Kuzminskas, and O'Quinn should all be better and with more consistent playing time, Hardaway may be overpaid but he is an upgrade at SG (and pushes Lee to the bench), and who knows what happens with Ntilikina.  The Knicks only have 11 players under contract for next year, so they will still make some moves.  Obviously if they trade Anthony, I think they will go into full bore rebuilding, but if not I frankly wouldn't be surprised to see them bring Rose back for another year or make other moves of that nature. 

Toronto only had Ibaka for 23 games last year.  A full season with him should help the overall quality of the team.  I think Siacam, Poetzl, and Nogueira are more than capable bench bigs.  Powell should have no issues as the starting SF.  They didn't really replace Joseph, Tucker, or Carroll, though they do have still have some open roster spots to fill in the bench.  They should still be a 50+ win team. 

The Cavs are built on their big 4, who are all in their prime (though James is obviously on the tail end of his).  Unless James has a month or more long injury for the first time in his career, they will still be a 50+ win team.  They won't push for the 1 seed because they have no reason to.  Vegas has them as a pretty large favorite to win the East for a reason (even though Vegas predicts the C's to have as many or more wins than the Cavs).

Well, that's the news from Lake Wobegon, where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are all above average
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on November 20, 2017, 09:24:58 AM
Well we are now a month or so into the season.  The East has 9 teams above .500 and another at .500, while the West has just 6 teams above .500 and another at .500.  Seeding by record the East has 1,4,5 while the West has 2,3,6,7 followed by 2 teams from each conference with the same 9-7 record.  Similarly the worst team thus far is in the West along with 2 other bottom 5 teams. 

It appears thus far the West is top heavy but the East is deeper with more mid level teams. 
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on December 08, 2017, 09:03:48 AM
Another 3 weeks since the last update and the Conference Seeding is now:

East - 1, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22, 29, 30
West - 2, 3, 6, 9, 13, 14, 15, 16, 19, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28

East still looking the better overall conference even with Chicago and Atlanta being the two worst teams in the league. As an example, Philly is the 8th seed in the East but would be tied for 5th in the West.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: johnnygreen on December 08, 2017, 09:38:53 AM
A lot has happened since this thread was started. Due to their great start, the Celtics only have to go 38-18 to get to 60 wins now. That is unbelievable.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: PhoSita on December 08, 2017, 10:08:18 AM
I lot has happened since this thread was started. Due to their great start, the Celtics only have to go 38-18 to get to 60 wins now. That is unbelievable.

That's still a 55 win pace, so it's not as though it's a trivial thing to do.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: konkmv on December 08, 2017, 10:41:32 AM
The East is not as weak as many expected... nets knicks pacers  and pistons are better than advertised... for now anyway
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: hwangjini_1 on December 08, 2017, 10:45:42 AM
the celtics are 6-2 since the streak ended. projecting that silly small sample size over the rest of the season it would give them 42 more wins. that is a total, for those keeping score at home, of 64 wins.

if they finish the rest of the season at a 59% win rate, they finish with 55 wins. not an outrageous winning percentage.

it will be an interesting ride this year. 6 minutes into game one of the season who would have predicted 22 and 4 as a record for this team?
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: smokeablount on December 08, 2017, 10:50:34 AM
Right now, the pie in the sky question about wins is asking if they can reach 70, not 60. I know the streak skews things but I think based on their current record that they’re on pace for 69+.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Monkhouse on December 08, 2017, 10:53:01 AM
the celtics are 6-2 since the streak ended. projecting that silly small sample size over the rest of the season it would give them 42 more wins. that is a total, for those keeping score at home, of 64 wins.

if they finish the rest of the season at a 59% win rate, they finish with 55 wins. not an outrageous winning percentage.

it will be an interesting ride this year. 6 minutes into game one of the season who would have predicted 22 and 4 as a record for this team?

Absolutely no one, and whoever thought we would go on above 10+ winning streak is lying like !@#$  :angel:
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: ThePaintedArea on December 08, 2017, 12:33:02 PM
I lot has happened since this thread was started. Due to their great start, the Celtics only have to go 38-18 to get to 60 wins now. That is unbelievable.

That's still a 55 win pace, so it's not as though it's a trivial thing to do.

Good point, keeping it in perspective.

On the other side, going .500 for the rest of the season would net 50 wins. 54 would mean five straight years of increased wins.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: droopdog7 on December 08, 2017, 12:36:17 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: iadera on December 08, 2017, 12:51:48 PM
I'd rather we save some wins for the playoffs.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: kozlodoev on December 08, 2017, 01:04:38 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on December 08, 2017, 01:15:11 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: smokeablount on December 08, 2017, 01:40:16 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.

Yeah, once you manipulate the data so we don’t factor in being the only team to lose an all star for the year, ignore that Kyrie has been wearing a protective mask for almost a month, and ignore the health issues of our 6th-7th best player Marcus Morris... then yeah, we sure have been lucky with health...
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Ilikesports17 on December 08, 2017, 01:53:43 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.

Yeah, once you manipulate the data so we don’t factor in being the only team to lose an all star for the year, ignore that Kyrie has been wearing a protective mask for almost a month, and ignore the health issues of our 6th-7th best player Marcus Morris... then yeah, we sure have been lucky with health...
Haywards injury is irrelevant. He's not coming back in any meaningful capacity.

Our health has been about average. Al, Irving and Smart have each missed 2 games. Morris has missed a bunch and now Browns missed a few.

Schedule hasn't been that easy. We are a little below average sos. Cleveland has the 2nd easiest in the league thus far for whatever that's worth.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: kozlodoev on December 08, 2017, 01:55:55 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.
We've had the 14th strongest schedule so far, which is about smack in the middle. Where exactly do you expect us to be, on average, anyway?

Teams with notably weaker schedule than ours so far: Cleveland (28th), San Antonio (27th), Houston (22th). Yet, somehow I haven't seen anyone question their status because of soft schedule.

Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on December 08, 2017, 02:05:53 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.
We've had the 14th strongest schedule so far, which is about smack in the middle. Where exactly do you expect us to be, on average, anyway?

Teams with notably weaker schedule than ours so far: Cleveland (28th), San Antonio (27th), Houston (22th). Yet, somehow I haven't seen anyone question their status because of soft schedule.
then you aren't paying attention
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: SHAQATTACK on December 08, 2017, 02:07:29 PM
end season is long ways off.    Injuries never know .

I sticking with 48-52

A 100 percent healthy fit and excited team might do better .  But im not cou ting on this.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: kozlodoev on December 08, 2017, 02:11:53 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.
We've had the 14th strongest schedule so far, which is about smack in the middle. Where exactly do you expect us to be, on average, anyway?

Teams with notably weaker schedule than ours so far: Cleveland (28th), San Antonio (27th), Houston (22th). Yet, somehow I haven't seen anyone question their status because of soft schedule.
then you aren't paying attention
Is "paying attention" some sort of a new hip code speak for "agreeing with assertions that have no basis in objective reality"?
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on December 08, 2017, 02:22:07 PM
end season is long ways off.    Injuries never know .

I sticking with 48-52

A 100 percent healthy fit and excited team might do better .  But im not cou ting on this.

So you think at best they will go 30-26 the rest of the way?
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: vjcsmoke on December 08, 2017, 02:26:21 PM
At our current rate of winning, yes 60 wins is easily within reach.  Before the season started I predicted 55 wins for us.  But this team simply refuses to lose on many nights.  Their closing rate feels a lot higher now that they have Kyrie.  And their comeback rate... well I've never seen a Celtic team in recent memory that came from behind 9-15 points like it was nothing and did it so frequently.

end season is long ways off.    Injuries never know .

I sticking with 48-52

A 100 percent healthy fit and excited team might do better .  But im not cou ting on this.

So you think at best they will go 30-26 the rest of the way?

Methinks people need to do some recalibration on their expectations.  To believe the Celtics would go 30-26 in their remaining 56 games is tantamount to saying they are going to implode and play merely .500 ball down the stretch.  And these Celtics look LEGIT.

Celtics right now 22 wins 4 losses.  Winning percentage 84.16%
56 games to go.

If they maintain an 80% win pace that is 45 additional wins.  They would be 67-15.
If they are merely very good at 75% pace the rest of the way.  64-18.
If they slip down to 70% the rest of the way. 61-11.

So yes, most reasonable scenarios would place the Celtics as a 60+ win team by the time the season is over.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: smokeablount on December 08, 2017, 02:34:22 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.

Yeah, once you manipulate the data so we don’t factor in being the only team to lose an all star for the year, ignore that Kyrie has been wearing a protective mask for almost a month, and ignore the health issues of our 6th-7th best player Marcus Morris... then yeah, we sure have been lucky with health...
Haywards injury is irrelevant. He's not coming back in any meaningful capacity.

Our health has been about average. Al, Irving and Smart have each missed 2 games. Morris has missed a bunch and now Browns missed a few.

Schedule hasn't been that easy. We are a little below average sos. Cleveland has the 2nd easiest in the league thus far for whatever that's worth.

I'm not saying health or Hayward's injury is relevant, I'm saying if we're discussing the team's health- whether GH counts or not- the word to describe it would not be 'strong'. 
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on December 08, 2017, 02:46:15 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.
We've had the 14th strongest schedule so far, which is about smack in the middle. Where exactly do you expect us to be, on average, anyway?

Teams with notably weaker schedule than ours so far: Cleveland (28th), San Antonio (27th), Houston (22th). Yet, somehow I haven't seen anyone question their status because of soft schedule.
then you aren't paying attention
Is "paying attention" some sort of a new hip code speak for "agreeing with assertions that have no basis in objective reality"?
no it means there has been plenty of talk of the weaker schedules from other teams, especially the Cavs during their win streak. 
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on December 08, 2017, 02:48:07 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.

Yeah, once you manipulate the data so we don’t factor in being the only team to lose an all star for the year, ignore that Kyrie has been wearing a protective mask for almost a month, and ignore the health issues of our 6th-7th best player Marcus Morris... then yeah, we sure have been lucky with health...
Haywards injury is irrelevant. He's not coming back in any meaningful capacity.

Our health has been about average. Al, Irving and Smart have each missed 2 games. Morris has missed a bunch and now Browns missed a few.

Schedule hasn't been that easy. We are a little below average sos. Cleveland has the 2nd easiest in the league thus far for whatever that's worth.

I'm not saying health or Hayward's injury is relevant, I'm saying if we're discussing the team's health- whether GH counts or not- the word to describe it would not be 'strong'.
that is why you know you actually have to look at a whole thought and not just pick a word out of the middle of it.  pretty strong health from the now top 5 .  Looks a little different when you change which part of the text you bold.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Ilikesports17 on December 08, 2017, 03:09:23 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.
We've had the 14th strongest schedule so far, which is about smack in the middle. Where exactly do you expect us to be, on average, anyway?

Teams with notably weaker schedule than ours so far: Cleveland (28th), San Antonio (27th), Houston (22th). Yet, somehow I haven't seen anyone question their status because of soft schedule.
then you aren't paying attention
Is "paying attention" some sort of a new hip code speak for "agreeing with assertions that have no basis in objective reality"?
Both Clevand and Houston's schedules have been discussed quite frequently as far as I can tell.

That said, I no longer think its appropriate to cite SOS as a reason for our struggles. 14th in the league with matchups against Milwaukee (3 times), Cleveland, Toronto, GSW, the Pistons, and the Spurs are all pretty good teams.

Also, being in the East and not playing ourselves, we should grade out to having one of the easiest schedules in the NBA.

We wont be in the bottom 5 because both Toronto and Philly are pretty good and in our division, but we should be pretty comfortably in the bottom half of the league when all is said and done.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: celticsclay on December 08, 2017, 03:28:54 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.
We've had the 14th strongest schedule so far, which is about smack in the middle. Where exactly do you expect us to be, on average, anyway?

Teams with notably weaker schedule than ours so far: Cleveland (28th), San Antonio (27th), Houston (22th). Yet, somehow I haven't seen anyone question their status because of soft schedule.
then you aren't paying attention
Is "paying attention" some sort of a new hip code speak for "agreeing with assertions that have no basis in objective reality"?
no it means there has been plenty of talk of the weaker schedules from other teams, especially the Cavs during their win streak.

i feel like i was the only person that pointed that out..
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: smokeablount on December 08, 2017, 03:40:14 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.

Yeah, once you manipulate the data so we don’t factor in being the only team to lose an all star for the year, ignore that Kyrie has been wearing a protective mask for almost a month, and ignore the health issues of our 6th-7th best player Marcus Morris... then yeah, we sure have been lucky with health...
Haywards injury is irrelevant. He's not coming back in any meaningful capacity.

Our health has been about average. Al, Irving and Smart have each missed 2 games. Morris has missed a bunch and now Browns missed a few.

Schedule hasn't been that easy. We are a little below average sos. Cleveland has the 2nd easiest in the league thus far for whatever that's worth.

I'm not saying health or Hayward's injury is relevant, I'm saying if we're discussing the team's health- whether GH counts or not- the word to describe it would not be 'strong'.
that is why you know you actually have to look at a whole thought and not just pick a word out of the middle of it.  pretty strong health from the now top 5 .  Looks a little different when you change which part of the text you bold.

Oh I read it, I’m just pointing out that instead of looking at the team’s health which isn’t that kind to the Celtics, you curated the demographics so you could say health was ‘strong’, seemingly to suggest that we’ve been fortunate since your projection of wins for the year was bearish. If so, that’s fantastic data manipulation by you, and if not, I’d like to know why you are only focusing on the health of the “now top 5” as if that’s somehow the best thing to look at.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: kozlodoev on December 08, 2017, 03:44:35 PM
That said, I no longer think its appropriate to cite SOS as a reason for our struggles. 14th in the league with matchups against Milwaukee (3 times), Cleveland, Toronto, GSW, the Pistons, and the Spurs are all pretty good teams.
I wonder how we're going to look when we don't struggle  :P 26-0, perhaps?
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Ilikesports17 on December 08, 2017, 04:06:53 PM
That said, I no longer think its appropriate to cite SOS as a reason for our struggles. 14th in the league with matchups against Milwaukee (3 times), Cleveland, Toronto, GSW, the Pistons, and the Spurs are all pretty good teams.
I wonder how we're going to look when we don't struggle  :P 26-0, perhaps?
whoops. Meant to write success.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: kozlodoev on December 08, 2017, 04:07:56 PM
That said, I no longer think its appropriate to cite SOS as a reason for our struggles. 14th in the league with matchups against Milwaukee (3 times), Cleveland, Toronto, GSW, the Pistons, and the Spurs are all pretty good teams.
I wonder how we're going to look when we don't struggle  :P 26-0, perhaps?
whoops. Meant to write success.
I thought so, but when's the last time you saw me passing on an opportunity to take a pot shot? :P
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Ilikesports17 on December 08, 2017, 04:10:55 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.
We've had the 14th strongest schedule so far, which is about smack in the middle. Where exactly do you expect us to be, on average, anyway?

Teams with notably weaker schedule than ours so far: Cleveland (28th), San Antonio (27th), Houston (22th). Yet, somehow I haven't seen anyone question their status because of soft schedule.
then you aren't paying attention
Is "paying attention" some sort of a new hip code speak for "agreeing with assertions that have no basis in objective reality"?
no it means there has been plenty of talk of the weaker schedules from other teams, especially the Cavs during their win streak.

i feel like i was the only person that pointed that out..
3 people mentioned it in the "will the Cavs beat our win streak" thread which is the most Cavs focused thread we have. Ive mentioned it and youve mentioned it.

That makes 5 times at least.

We dont talk about Houston much on this blog, but its been a topic in the rest of the NBA world. SAS I havent heard about much. Was actually surprised to see they had played such a crappy schedule.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: footey on December 08, 2017, 04:45:03 PM
I would be disappointed, based on current expectations, if we don't win at least 60 games this season.  The league has a lot of mediocre teams, and we have Kyrie, who closes the deal in the 4th quarter more often than not.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Moranis on December 08, 2017, 04:56:27 PM
Can we win 60?  Hell, we're GOING to win 60.
To me, this looks like a team  that will win 60 games without overachieving massively.
Pretty easy schedule thus far and pretty strong health from the now top 5 (i.e. Kyrie, Al, Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus).  60 is certainly obtainable, but I'd put the odds at more like 57 wins at this point in the season.
We've had the 14th strongest schedule so far, which is about smack in the middle. Where exactly do you expect us to be, on average, anyway?

Teams with notably weaker schedule than ours so far: Cleveland (28th), San Antonio (27th), Houston (22th). Yet, somehow I haven't seen anyone question their status because of soft schedule.
then you aren't paying attention
Is "paying attention" some sort of a new hip code speak for "agreeing with assertions that have no basis in objective reality"?
no it means there has been plenty of talk of the weaker schedules from other teams, especially the Cavs during their win streak.

i feel like i was the only person that pointed that out..
3 people mentioned it in the "will the Cavs beat our win streak" thread which is the most Cavs focused thread we have. Ive mentioned it and youve mentioned it.

That makes 5 times at least.

We dont talk about Houston much on this blog, but its been a topic in the rest of the NBA world. SAS I havent heard about much. Was actually surprised to see they had played such a crappy schedule.
And as for SAS, I think a lot of people give them a pass because Leonard has been out, Parker has missed a bunch of games, etc.  But yeah, their schedule has been weak which has helped them through their injuries.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: chilidawg on December 08, 2017, 06:43:36 PM
One of the most surprising things to me about the season so far is that the EC is +4 against the West. 

Put me down as fairly confident we'll win 60 games.  I didn't feel that way coming into the season, even with the supposed weaker East.  Team is definitely exceeding expectations.
Title: Re: With a weaker Eastern Conference, could the Celtics win 60+ games this season??
Post by: Bobshot on December 08, 2017, 10:54:10 PM
I last posted in this thread in July, before IT had been dealt for Irving. I predicted about 60 wins assuming a healthy IT. Well, the Celtics have a very healthy Kyrie Irving who is MVP material right now, but have been without Hayward since the start of the season. Still, they are on a pace to win 65-70 games, which is remarkable.

I think the real question now is what they have to do to go all the way to a Championship? What are they missing? I think they're missing that rim protector to defend against long centers that Baynes and Horford can't handle. Guys like Kounmpo and Drummond, and tonite, Aldridge.These guys are going to give them problems in the playoffs, and they haven't shown much ability to defend against them up to this point.

If I were Ainge, I would use that money they got for Hayward's injury and put it into a guy like Tyson Chandler--a veteran who can defend bigs inside and has valuable experience for the playoffs.