CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: nickagneta on July 15, 2017, 05:53:27 PM
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Tatum, Zizic, Yabusele, Theis, Nader, Ojeleye Bird, Allen(last 2 on 2 way contracts). Thats 8 rookies out of 17 roster positions. Youth doesn't win and our depth is going to have limited NBA experience and be ridiculously young. Especially given rotational vets being Smart, Brown, and Rozier.
I think this team will be good but if the starters don't stay healthy, we could have problems with the bench being so young and inexperienced.
EDIT: added Ojeleye
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no. we're not winning anything anyway.
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Zizic, yabu, and theis have played basketball at a pro high level. Not NBA but you know. Allen is 24, and Tatum doesn't play like his age
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I am. For instance, I would have preferred Mike Scott over Theis, and I'd like a more experienced wing than Nader. But, if one of these guys plays beyond his years, we'll be okay.
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My guess is we will see how everyone develops, and we will trade 2-3 of the younger players by mid-season for vet help.
Either way, we have a great vet core of Horford, IT, Hayward, Morris, Crowder, Baynes, Smart and Rozier. That's 8 guys. That is all most teams really rely on for their core. Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum will develop well by mid-season I would think, and Theis is a vet, just not an NBA vet.
Its guys like Zizic, Yabusele, Nadir, and Ojeyle that will likely not be ready to help us win this season, but they are totally worth it as deep bench guys.
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Nope, because the only rookie I see getting minutes off that bat is Tatum, and the others will have to really earn it and outplay veterans.
Between Horford, Baynes, Morris, Crowder, Hayward, Brown, Smart, Thomas, and Rozier that's 9 rotation spots, and that's not even including Tatum or even Theis who is a Euro league veteran.
The way I see it Ainge has kind of 2 rosters, one built to win more now, and one to develop for the future. Of course a few players like Brown, Smart, and Rozier overlap that but they have all proven worthy of some rotation minutes.
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i would just be wasting energy ...not a thing i can do to change it .
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i would just be wasting energy ...not a thing i can do to change it .
LOL....if thats the case, we may as well shut down the forums, none of us actually influence team decisions
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Eh, perhaps if more of them were going to be part of our top-10 rotation guys I'd be concerned, but that doesn't seem to be the case:
PG: IT, Rozier
SG: Brown, Smart
SF: Hayward, Crowder
PF: Morris, Tatum
C: Horford, Baynes
Literally only one of our top-10 rotation guys is a rookie,and he's probably the most NBA-ready rookie at the top of the draft as it is. And even though three of the others are still on rookie-level contracts (Rozier, Brown, and Smart) they all have significant NBA experience, especially Smart, and are closer to vets than rookies.
It's only when you get into the third stringers that we're rookie-heavy, which I don't think will be a problem. We're as strong as any team in the league 10-deep, which is what ultimately matters.
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Tatum, Zizic, Yabusele, Theis, Nader, Bird, Allen(last 2 on 2 way contracts). Thats 7 rookies out of 17 roster positions
Or you can see it 5 rookies out of 15 roster positions (the others are precisely for rookies and you can only have 15 simultaneously). And in our ten-man rotation, how many rookies there will be? Two or three? Even only one? The rate is going dramatically down.
Thomas/Rozier
Smart/Brown
Hayward/Crowder
Morris/Tatum
Horford/Baynes
Anyway, I don't think we should be concerned. Our goal is to be in the ECF these three years until the young movement is ready. What's better than developing rookies in a winning environment?
EDIT: TP @jpotter33 for beating me to say the same :laugh:
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Not worried at all for the time being.
Tatum and Brown are way ahead on the maturity curve and Tatum in particular got a year of coaching with one of the best coaches on the planet.
Yab has succeeded in Europe, China, D League, and summer league. I'm not sure what else we can ask of a rookie.
Nader played in college 5 years (had to sit out a year after transferring) and then played another year in the D League
Theis is 25
Jabari is 23
Kadeem Allen is 24
These guys aren't your typical 19 year old NBA rookies that took basket weaving at Kentucky. The guy who did that is off the team now.
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A lot of older rookies and hardly any of them are gonna get big minutes anyways. So no, not really.
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I'm more concerned about the lack of a franchise altering talent.
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I'm more concerned about the lack of a franchise altering talent.
I feel IT has altered our franchise and losing Hayward is about to alter Utah. A year after Atlanta lost Horford they seem pretty altered
And Tatum just altered the summer league
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Yes.
Would have kept Green over Nader for that very reason.
Too many new players (9) and too many rookies(6)
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One of the necessary evils of making enough space to sign Hayward was letting the free agent veterans go, which more or less left Boston with minimum contracts to fill out the roster. You can certainly debate whether the team should have cut Semi and Nader loose in order to bring in, like, Gerald Green and Randy Foye, but I would argue that unless you think Boston has a real shot at winning it all next year (I don't think they do) you're better off playing the long game and seeing which of the young guys you can turn into high-level contributors, as those veteran bench help types are available every year.
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Eh, perhaps if more of them were going to be part of our top-10 rotation guys I'd be concerned, but that doesn't seem to be the case:
PG: IT, Rozier
SG: Brown, Smart
SF: Hayward, Crowder
PF: Morris, Tatum
C: Horford, Baynes
Literally only one of our top-10 rotation guys is a rookie,and he's probably the most NBA-ready rookie at the top of the draft as it is. And even though three of the others are still on rookie-level contracts (Rozier, Brown, and Smart) they all have significant NBA experience, especially Smart, and are closer to vets than rookies.
It's only when you get into the third stringers that we're rookie-heavy, which I don't think will be a problem. We're as strong as any team in the league 10-deep, which is what ultimately matters.
I tend to agree but it still would be nice to have one of those 11th-man "security blanket" vets. It seems like in a long playoff run you always end up leaning on one of those guys due to injury or matchup, for a game or two.
I mean we had a lot of young guys on the 2008 team, but by the finals our key bench players were PJ Brown, Cassell, House and Posey.
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Not me. I like all the rookies because I don't want a bunch of retreads. Get to enjoy watching a bunch of new young players grow up and be really good for many years to come.
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To be fair, 3/5 (Zizic, Yab, Nader) you mentioned were drafted last year and all given experience in professional leagues - although they do all need quite a bit more development. Bird and Allen don't really count; in year's past, they would just be camp fodder and then cut.
Tatum is primed for some solid rotation minutes and, as has been mentioned, Theis was brought in because of his experience level - it just isn't in the NBA.
Funny enough, you didn't even mention Semi, who may technically be the 'rookie-est' of all the players you mentioned (2017 2nd round pick).
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Who is Theis and where did he come from? Lol
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I am. For instance, I would have preferred Mike Scott over Theis, and I'd like a more experienced wing than Nader. But, if one of these guys plays beyond his years, we'll be okay.
Some of what's happened is because of the cap, but Danny has also lamented some of his decisions during the Big 3 era, when he signed experienced but injury-prone vets (Shaq, Jermaine O'Neal, etc.) and it backfired. I wonder whether he's decided that younger players are a better way to fill out the bench even in win-now mode.
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I'm slightly concerned about having all these four year deals that will expire the same year. However, the odds they will all still be here in four years is slight, so I guess it isn't a big deal.
All these guys should be able to form a good bench in a couple years after they develop. Let's say they don't re-sign Morris in two years. It would be nice if someone like Ojeleye could step in at that point.
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Salary cap doesn't really allow you to evolve the way you might like to. Otherwise AB would still be at the Celtics to help ease the younger players along and do what he did. The other players who have been moved on were not going to win the Celtics a championship and it is time to embrace the new lineup that will take the team closer. Even if a number of those rookies struggle, the team has the depth to do well. As much as I will miss AB, the Celtics are in good shape.
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It's the result of all these draft picks. Can't stash them forever.
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Who is Theis and where did he come from? Lol
He's a German player, and... he's a German player
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Not me. I like all the rookies because I don't want a bunch of retreads. Get to enjoy watching a bunch of new young players grow up and be really good for many years to come.
:o
I had to read this a couple of times before I got it right
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Only Semi and Tatum are rookies.
The other three have at least one year of professional basketball experience.
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Who is Theis and where did he come from? Lol
He's a German player, and... he's a German player
He is a good off the bench player. Probably better, or on par, with jerebko. Good three point shot, physical player, blocks shots.
Watch videos..in one of the you will see him own zizic. ;D
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Not me. I like all the rookies because I don't want a bunch of retreads. Get to enjoy watching a bunch of new young players grow up and be really good for many years to come.
:o
I had to read this a couple of times before I got it right
Funny, you and me both. Can't imagine we're the only ones!
Mike
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Eh, perhaps if more of them were going to be part of our top-10 rotation guys I'd be concerned, but that doesn't seem to be the case:
PG: IT, Rozier
SG: Brown, Smart
SF: Hayward, Crowder
PF: Morris, Tatum
C: Horford, Baynes
Literally only one of our top-10 rotation guys is a rookie,and he's probably the most NBA-ready rookie at the top of the draft as it is. And even though three of the others are still on rookie-level contracts (Rozier, Brown, and Smart) they all have significant NBA experience, especially Smart, and are closer to vets than rookies.
It's only when you get into the third stringers that we're rookie-heavy, which I don't think will be a problem. We're as strong as any team in the league 10-deep, which is what ultimately matters.
I tend to agree but it still would be nice to have one of those 11th-man "security blanket" vets. It seems like in a long playoff run you always end up leaning on one of those guys due to injury or matchup, for a game or two.
I mean we had a lot of young guys on the 2008 team, but by the finals our key bench players were PJ Brown, Cassell, House and Posey.
We can get this guy later in the year.
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I'm more concerned about the lack of a franchise altering talent.
That comes next year. This team is constructed to keep the fickle C's fans interested, not to win the Chip.
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No, but I am sure you are.
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Eh, perhaps if more of them were going to be part of our top-10 rotation guys I'd be concerned, but that doesn't seem to be the case:
PG: IT, Rozier
SG: Brown, Smart
SF: Hayward, Crowder
PF: Morris, Tatum
C: Horford, Baynes
Literally only one of our top-10 rotation guys is a rookie,and he's probably the most NBA-ready rookie at the top of the draft as it is. And even though three of the others are still on rookie-level contracts (Rozier, Brown, and Smart) they all have significant NBA experience, especially Smart, and are closer to vets than rookies.
It's only when you get into the third stringers that we're rookie-heavy, which I don't think will be a problem. We're as strong as any team in the league 10-deep, which is what ultimately matters.
This, and Dario SpanishFan said the same.
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I would add that some of the other rookies are pretty well-seasoned too:
Theis is 25 and has been playing pro ball in Europe since 2013.
Nader is 23.
Zizic was just playing pro ball in a good league in Europe.
Yab has played overseas a couple years (though admittedly against weak competition)
Ojeleye will be 23 in a few months.
This isn't your normal collection of 19-year-old NBA rookies.
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I would add that some of the other rookies are pretty well-seasoned too:
Theis is 25 and has been playing pro ball in Europe since 2013.
Nader is 23.
Zizic was just playing pro ball in a good league in Europe.
Yab has played overseas a couple years (though admittedly against weak competition)
Ojeleye will be 23 in a few months.
This isn't your normal collection of 19-year-old NBA rookies.
That's my feelings too. I think their learning curve is steeper. They may not look too great early, but as the season rolls on and they get acclimated to the bigger, faster NBA, I think they will hold their own. I'm sure we won't see more than 2 on the court at the same time other than blowouts.
Other than Tatum, I don't see us relying on any of them for much beyond some spot minutes for fouls/injuries or in garbage time.
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Our top 9 aren't rookies so what does it matter? They're on cheap contracts which is what you need when you have max contracts. Young players have good trade value and potential. We're marching up the mountain, it's what it takes. Dumping assets for a quick fix short term shot at a title isn't a good idea. Keep doing what you're doin Cs; patience is key.
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Nope. We have improved and are plenty deep to make a run. I'm sure at least one of the young but experienced newcomers will step up to earn rotation minutes, too.
My only concern is the exact same as last year at this time -- Rozier. To my eyes, his most redeeming quality continues to be his ability to make an ill-advised shot. He's shown spurts of solid defense and rebounding when needed, but he has to become a consistent playmaker for the 2nd unit for this team to do serious damage over 48 minutes. If he's similar to last year, I suspect next season's results will be largely the same.
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i would just be wasting energy ...not a thing i can do to change it .
LOL....if thats the case, we may as well shut down the forums, none of us actually influence team decisions
It's possible to discuss the team and players and argue about it with out worrying about it. DA and BS should be worrying, we just get to enjoy.
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Yes. I wish that we had more of them.
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No. In fact, I think it is a great idea. Ainge actually improved the team while getting younger.
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Years of experience, 2016-17 main rotation guys: 11, 9, 6, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, R
Years of experience, 2017-18 main rotation guys: 10, 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, 3, 2, 1, R
Only lost 2 years of experience.
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Nope. We have improved and are plenty deep to make a run. I'm sure at least one of the young but experienced newcomers will step up to earn rotation minutes, too.
My only concern is the exact same as last year at this time -- Rozier. To my eyes, his most redeeming quality continues to be his ability to make an ill-advised shot. He's shown spurts of solid defense and rebounding when needed, but he has to become a consistent playmaker for the 2nd unit for this team to do serious damage over 48 minutes. If he's similar to last year, I suspect next season's results will be largely the same.
They do have Smart as a backup option, but I agree that this assumption Rozier will be fine as the backup could be a little optimistic. It does feel like this team needs another guard even if he's up in Maine most of the year, but that's something they can figure out during the year if needs be. Adding a veteran guard could also be a possibility.
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I'm not because I want the young guys to play and spots 11-15 are for bottom feeders anyway. Those guys rarely play and with the salaries being paid these days I think a lot of NBA teams are going to look like this. When you have 2-4 guys making a TON of money you need guys that make chicken scratch too!
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Last year 12 players played more than 10 MPG and the last 3 players played in 78, 47 and 51 games. If this season is anything like last season this team is going to have to rely on three rookies and not players like Rozier, Zeller and Green. Most might think Rozier, Zeller and Green are awful players and deserve to be players 10, 11, and 12 on a team but they might be better as a whole over Rozier and the two rookies we will have to roll out this year.
As I said, injuries in the starting lineup could be very difficult to cover if we are relying on nothing but rookies in slots 9 through 15
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I like having rookies to round out the roster. I think we have some talented, smart, dedicated, hard nosed youngsters who will make positive contributions when their numbers are called.
It's going to be an exciting year. I love the mix of newcomers and veterans.
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PG: IT, Rozier
SG: Brown, Smart
SF: Hayward, Crowder
PF: Morris, Tatum
C: Horford, Baynes
Notice anything?
Right. The starting lineup here is severely challenged for getting a defensive rebound; at three spots it's significantly worse than last season, with two remaining the same.
So how do you address that, given the current roster?
How about starting Baynes instead of Morris? So you're going to have Baynes and Horford on the floor together, and at least one of them has got to guard a quicker player on the perimeter. On its face, that is less than optimum.
Tatum is showing promise as a defensive rebounder, and he has length and other advantages as a swing. On the other hand, the most optimistic report has him at 210.
Jaylen got a lot of developmental minutes last year (kudos to Brad, in the middle of a playoff hunt); with a gaping hole in the depth chart, look for Tatum to get thrown into the fire early and often.
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Tatum, Zizic, Yabusele, Theis, Nader, Ojeleye Bird, Allen(last 2 on 2 way contracts). Thats 8 rookies out of 17 roster positions. Youth doesn't win and our depth is going to have limited NBA experience and be ridiculously young. Especially given rotational vets being Smart, Brown, and Rozier.
I think this team will be good but if the starters don't stay healthy, we could have problems with the bench being so young and inexperienced.
EDIT: added Ojeleye
8 out of 17. That means the first 4 off the bench will be vets.
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I like having rookies to round out the roster. I think we have some talented, smart, dedicated, hard nosed youngsters who will make positive contributions when their numbers are called.
It's going to be an exciting year. I love the mix of newcomers and veterans.
Me too. Most exciting type of a roster, imo. Vets carry us while we get to witness the sporadic breakthroughs from our youngn's, all while making a deep run.
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Nah.
Thomas, Hayward, Crowder, Horford, Baynes
Rozier, Smart, Brown, Morris.
That's a solid top 9 who will get a lot of minutes.
Plus Tatum, who is a very talented rookie.
I don't see any reason, when the team is relatively healthy, why any of the rookies or other young guys will get too many minutes except in favorable matchups.