CelticsStrong
Around the League => Transaction Ideas and Rumors => Topic started by: Celtics978Fan on July 08, 2017, 07:07:47 PM
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I'm interested in seeing what people would do? Do you think we should trade or pay this two players, Smart and Thomas? Smart is a lot younger, more room to improve, would come a lot cheaper. Thomas is saying he wants a max deal next year. Thomas is coming off a hip injury which can really kill a career, would have to see how he comes back.
So what do you think the Celtics should do? Do you pay or trade them? If you trade them, what do you think we could get for them?
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Pay Thomas. We didn't sign trade away the right to draft Fultz and then sign Hayward just to let our second team PG walk away. Also I don't think Thomas gets a full four year max. Look at Lowry this year, he only got three years. I think Thomas gets 25-max for 3 years which I'm fine with. Smart it depends on what he shows this year. If his shot remains broken I say we move on.
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Pay them what they're worth. I hope they get a lot from us and we start winning more banners !
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Knowing Thomas is wanting a max deal. If the New York Knicks were to buy out Anthony or trade him for less salary, would they be willing to trade Porzingis? Personally I would be willing to trade Thomas for Porzingis. New York would be looking for a new face of the franchise. Porzingis would give us a younger talent, plus could space the floor and bring defense. Yes, this mean Smart becomes our starting point guard. But I'm thinking if we could do this trade, bring in a Derrick Rose so him and Smart could split time, plus Rozier.
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IT: let him walk if he wants 4-5 years, pay if 3 years
Smart: pay if price is reasonable, otherwise let him walk
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If Thomas is back, Smart is gone pretty much no matter what because every penny of Smart's contract will be adding to the luxury tax bill and there is no way the team is going to do that unless it pulls off a miracle and is somehow a legit contender.
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both will get paid.
IT, for better or worse, is now the face of the franchise. he's not going anywhere.
Smart is basically our backup PG and our top defender. I'm becoming less optimistic his shot will improve much this coming season (I hold out hope that his FT shooting will improve though) but his D and ability to impact a game without scoring is something the team needs. He'll get paid as well -- probably less than KO money. We don't really gain anything by letting him go in a trade or not offering him a reasonable deal.
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If the Cs were to offer Thomas a 3 year deal, what is the most they could offer him during that span dollar wise?
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Knowing Thomas is wanting a max deal. If the New York Knicks were to buy out Anthony or trade him for less salary, would they be willing to trade Porzingis? Personally I would be willing to trade Thomas for Porzingis. New York would be looking for a new face of the franchise. Porzingis would give us a younger talent, plus could space the floor and bring defense. Yes, this mean Smart becomes our starting point guard. But I'm thinking if we could do this trade, bring in a Derrick Rose so him and Smart could split time, plus Rozier.
If Porzingis for IT was on the table, this deal would already be done. I'm thinking Porzingis for IT and the LAL/Sac pick would also be done if it were offered.
Basically, I don't think a deal of Porzingis for IT is happening.
I think we all need to strap in see what this team gives us the next 3-4 years. We will be very competitive and, while unlikely, could sneak a championship with some injury luck out west. Our young players will then be ready to take the reins (hopefully) and our championship window will be infinite! ;D
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You don't have to trade him if you don't plan on resigning him to the max. Trading him now makes absolutely no sense (he's injured and we just signed another great player in Hayward - we're not gonna trade our best player for a couple of late firsts), and trading him as a half-season rental at the trade deadline makes even less sense. We'll keep him for the season and make a decision about how much we're willing to pay him next summer. For all we know, he could make the decision an easy one by coming back and sucking or coming back and averaging nearly 30 ppg again.
No matter what, though, now is definitely not the time to make that decision.
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If the Cs were to offer Thomas a 3 year deal, what is the most they could offer him during that span dollar wise?
Somewhere around $95-$100 million depending on where the cap ends up. He'll be eligible for 30% of the cap, and 8% raises per year
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It depends.
We are now going to be at the cap. If IT is fully healthy, then you pay him. This will basically guarantee that we are again at the cap, in which case it depends on the Lux Tax that Wyc is willing to pay for a very good team that will likely only get better and, if rumors are to be believed, might be seeing Lebron bolt for LA in the Western Conference, meaning lots of potential finals appearances and the resulting revenue. In that case, because you are capped out anyway, it makes sense to keep a valuable RFA piece like Smart as well.
If IT is not healthy, you could just let him walk, in which case you have a choice; keeping Tatum, Brown, Crowder, Horford, Hayward, BKN #1, etc, but renouncing bird rights for Smart (RFA) and IT (UFA) might get you close to 1 more max salary. Unfortunately, I am glad we got Hayward this year, because the potential Max Free Agent market for 2018 looks good on paper, but not reality.
You have Player Options for Durant, Lebron, Carmelo, Paul George, Westbrook, Aldridge.
Pure UFAs include Boogie Cousins, Favors.
At this point, Aldridge has kind of fallen off a cliff. Durant is staying with GSW. I only see Lebron, Carmelo, George opting out to go to LA or a similar team-up destination, not to join Horford and Hayward in Boston. OKC can offer a lot more to Westbrook than competitors.
So really, if you are trying to carve max cap space, you are putting all your eggs in a boogie cousins basket. Or, using picks in order to trade for a player into the capspace.
So, I think the most likely thing is IT is healthy, great offensive player, you pay him which puts you in the cap, then you take advantage of bird rights, MLE, good draft picks, etc, to stay above the cap and flush out the team.
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I'd pay IT for sure. It'd be ridiculous for us to have come this far with moves (Hayward, Horford etc.) for us to then NOT keep our star guard.
Smart would be a tough one on the other hand. If we can move him and get a decent return, I'd be very tempted, as it seems highly unlikely that we'd be able to keep him in FA.
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About the only way we don't keep IT is if Smart completely blows up this year, and is the version we saw game 3 vs. Cleveland more nights than not. It's unlikely, but not impossible. All-Star level Smart makes this a true title contender, and he would be eligible for a lesser version of the max than IT (not likely little enough to be below the tax, but probably below the apron.)
That said, we'll be without one of them next year, but we should keep them both this year, unless one of them is a major piece toward acquiring Anthony Davis. The team is good enough to have a chance to get past Cleveland -- maybe not be the favorites in the series, but have a real chance. And then if you get to the Finals, who knows?
But also, due to the fact we're losing one after this year, I don't expect you'll see Jackson cut, as many here would like. We'll need another PG next year, even to be third in line, and if Jackson can be that guy for the third year minimum, you keep him around this year to give him that chance. Next year is not a PG heavy draft class, and as we'll be in the tax, cheap depth is important.
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I wouldn't do the 5-year max on IT. Assuming he's healthy, I'd push for 3 years but would accept 4. Probably not trading him unless he pulls a Paul George and leaks that he's going somewhere else in FA.
With Smart, I have no idea right now. I don't know if he'll improve this year, and I don't know what kind of interest he'll attract in FA. If he doesn't improve offensively then I'm not sure I even want him back. If he does, some stupid team might overpay him and I'm not willing to match a stupid offer. I would be open to trading him depending on the return, but he's a pretty necessary piece of our guard rotation at the moment almost by default.
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I would pay both, but I'd also be willing to let the market dictate the price a bit to try and get the best deal possible. It looks like next summer will be a further market correction with a relatively flat cap raise and fewer teams with major space. I think we will ultimately sign IT for 25-30 mil over 3-4 years. I think Smart's contract will end up between 12-18 depending on how well he shoots this year and if another team makes him an offer in RFA. I would be offering Smart up to a 4 year 52 mil extension this fall to see if he'll bite on long-term security (though I'd expect him to not accept that deal).
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I would phrase this differently.
IT clearly sees himself as someone who deserves a full max deal, and will expect the C's to offer him that. Ainge almost certainly will want to see what the market will bear, and will want to pay IT accordingly. There is a pretty big expectations gap here and that usually causes problems.
Ultimately, IT is the one who will decide whether this works out. Will he investigate the market discretely then negotiate a deal with Ainge based on the market, or will he get angry at the C's, look for a better deal, and sign with someone else without talking to the C's last. It will end up being up to him, but this could become a problem.
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I'm interested in seeing what people would do? Do you think we should trade or pay this two players, Smart and Thomas? Smart is a lot younger, more room to improve, would come a lot cheaper. Thomas is saying he wants a max deal next year. Thomas is coming off a hip injury which can really kill a career, would have to see how he comes back.
So what do you think the Celtics should do? Do you pay or trade them? If you trade them, what do you think we could get for them?
I think it's academic. I'm almost certain we'll draft Doncic and S&T IT next summer and then sign Smart to a reasonable deal if we can. No way are we going to pay IT that kind of money..
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Good point about Isaiah's reaction to the negotiations being key to ultimately retaining him. We have to hope that he values how the Celtics organization and coaching staff have been key in helping elevate his star status. He easily could have gone through his career typecast as a 6th man type and never reached the kind of contract numbers we are considering. I'm hopeful that belief the Cs had in him early on will help the negotiations not become acrimonious.
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I would phrase this differently.
IT clearly sees himself as someone who deserves a full max deal, and will expect the C's to offer him that. Ainge almost certainly will want to see what the market will bear, and will want to pay IT accordingly. There is a pretty big expectations gap here and that usually causes problems.
Ultimately, IT is the one who will decide whether this works out. Will he investigate the market discretely then negotiate a deal with Ainge based on the market, or will he get angry at the C's, look for a better deal, and sign with someone else without talking to the C's last. It will end up being up to him, but this could become a problem.
I don't think there's a gap in expectations. I seriously doubt Danny is thinking IT isn't worth the max or close to it where another solid season removes any doubts on his part.
personally, I don't think he's worth the max but considering the contracts being thrown around to comparative talent in the league, IT has a solid argument for getting one.
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Personally I think it's way too early to make a decision on either one. Let's see how they look this year, then decide.
Maybe Smart develops a shot. Makes him a borderline all-star.
Maybe IT"s injury keeps him out half the season, and he comes back a shell of last year's player?
Who knows at this point.
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both will get paid.
IT, for better or worse, is now the face of the franchise. he's not going anywhere.
Smart is basically our backup PG and our top defender. I'm becoming less optimistic his shot will improve much this coming season (I hold out hope that his FT shooting will improve though) but his D and ability to impact a game without scoring is something the team needs. He'll get paid as well -- probably less than KO money. We don't really gain anything by letting him go in a trade or not offering him a reasonable deal.
LOL "face of the franchise". Danny traded PP, a home-grown HOFer without blinking an eye. He will trade IT without hesitation..
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All depends on how well he comes back from this injury. Let's wait and see. :-)
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both will get paid.
IT, for better or worse, is now the face of the franchise. he's not going anywhere.
Smart is basically our backup PG and our top defender. I'm becoming less optimistic his shot will improve much this coming season (I hold out hope that his FT shooting will improve though) but his D and ability to impact a game without scoring is something the team needs. He'll get paid as well -- probably less than KO money. We don't really gain anything by letting him go in a trade or not offering him a reasonable deal.
LOL "face of the franchise". Danny traded PP, a home-grown HOFer without blinking an eye. He will trade IT without hesitation..
Ainge traded PP when he was washed up, not when he was in the middle of his prime years.
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Without Isaiah, the Celtics don't have Horford and Hayward, and they don't get a meeting with Durant last summer.
Without Isaiah, the Celtics don't even make the ECF and frankly, I think there's a chance last season's team WITHOUT Isaiah may have even missed the playoffs (as a 9-10 seed).
He's NOT leaving people.
If his injury is a lot more serious, then we can talk, but it doesn't seem like it is according to CBS and other reports.
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Without Isaiah, the Celtics don't have Horford and Hayward, and they don't get a meeting with Durant last summer.
Without Isaiah, the Celtics don't even make the ECF and frankly, I think there's a chance last season's team WITHOUT Isaiah may have even missed the playoffs (as a 9-10 seed).
He's NOT leaving people.
If his injury is a lot more serious, then we can talk, but it doesn't seem like it is according to CBS and other reports.
EXACTLY! All this "Will we pay IT the max?" talk is FOOLISHNESS!
Back up the brinks truck!! I don't care how much these owners have to pay. Once over the cap, we as fans don't have to worry about penny pinching to save cap space for "the right guy". We have our 3 max guys. Now it's time to pay up...
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It depends what the market bears. You might be able to get something nice in return so I think that needs to be taken in consideration.
He's NOT leaving people.
Your talking about Danny Ainge here. The guy who traded Bradley, PP, and KG. He could care less what the fans think and he is about as sentimental as cancer. With Ainge, if he sees an opportunity to improve the team, one never knows what he could do.
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IT's current contract had his annual pay decrease every year. $7.2 mil, $6.9 mil, $6.5 mil, $6.2 mil. http://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/isaiah-thomas-8111/
I noticed the Kings did the same type deal with George Hill, $20 mil, $19 mil, $18 mil and only $1 mil is guaranteed in the final year. https://sports.yahoo.com/report-final-season-george-hill-195316445.html
I wonder if IT would consider a "Max" contract starting at $30.6 mil (So it would be a max deal in year one) but with the salary decreasing by 3% going forward?
Year 1: $30.6
Year 2: $29.68
Year 3: $28.79
Year 4: $27.93
Year 5: $27.09
Total for 5 years: $144.09 instead of the $179 Max contract with the final year being over $40 mil. It saves the team $25 mil which isn't a huge deal, but the final year, he would be making $15 mil less so that might help against the Cap. Year 5 would be even better if it wasn't fully guaranteed (similar to George Hill)
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both will get paid.
IT, for better or worse, is now the face of the franchise. he's not going anywhere.
Smart is basically our backup PG and our top defender. I'm becoming less optimistic his shot will improve much this coming season (I hold out hope that his FT shooting will improve though) but his D and ability to impact a game without scoring is something the team needs. He'll get paid as well -- probably less than KO money. We don't really gain anything by letting him go in a trade or not offering him a reasonable deal.
LOL "face of the franchise". Danny traded PP, a home-grown HOFer without blinking an eye. He will trade IT without hesitation..
Ainge traded PP when he was washed up, not when he was in the middle of his prime years.
that's only because Portland backed out at the last minute.
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4 year 120 million for IT is fair.
Smart is a little bit more tricky. I am not sure how much money is going to be available next summer during free agency, but Marcus will probably get a little more than Andre Roberson got.
I think 4 year 56 million is a good price for Marcus Smart.
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Having 90 million between Thomas, Hayward and Horford and 12 other roster spaces to fill...
Very difficult. I'm not saying he deserves to be paid, but until what extent?
The other way. If we lose him for nothing...will we have spece to fill those 13 spaces? I guess we won't, so we are condemned to extend the players and get into salary tax territory.