CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: smokeablount on April 21, 2017, 12:10:01 PM
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Good questions, one and all.
I, too, am less than sold on the future of this franchise, particularly if the draft is where we end up putting all our marbles because Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal.
His draft record, wildly distorted on this this blog by his supporters, simply isn't good enough to warrant my faith.
-
I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Good questions, one and all.
I, too, am less than sold on the future of this franchise, particularly if the draft is where we end up putting all our marbles because Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal.
His draft record, wildly distorted on this this blog by his supporters, simply isn't good enough to warrant my faith.
LOL.
We all know that if you were running things we would be hunting banner 22 right now.
Ainge is a clear cut, no debate, top 5 GM in this league.
Your constant whining on the matter gets quite old.
Who did you think Danny needed to pick in this draft again?
when you compare anyone to perfection it is easy to pick at their faults.
"Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal"?
That is legitimately one of the most foolish things I have ever read on this board.
His nickname is trader Danny, but he lacks the fortitude to deal?
What?
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Let's talk about it this way:
Imagine that the Celts roster was a bunch of veteran expiring contracts and the following guys:
- Jaylen Brown
- Marcus Smart
- Terry Rozier
- Jordan Mickey
- Demetrius Jackson
That means next year you'd have those guys, plus the following:
- Top 4 2017 pick
- #36 2017
- A couple second round picks from the 50-60 range
- Ante Zizic
- Guerschon Yabusele
Simply going on that, how would you feel our group of young assets stacks up to teams like Minnesota, Phoenix, Philadelphia, Sacramento, Orlando, LAL?
Of course, we can also look forward to 2018 BRK and 2018 BOS 1sts, as well as that Grizz pick, whenever we get it, and a 2019 Clips pick.
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Good questions, one and all.
I, too, am less than sold on the future of this franchise, particularly if the draft is where we end up putting all our marbles because Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal.
His draft record, wildly distorted on this this blog by his supporters, simply isn't good enough to warrant my faith.
LOL.
We all know that if you were running things we would be hunting banner 22 right now.
Ainge is a clear cut, no debate, top 5 GM in this league.
Your constant whining on the matter gets quite old.
Who did you think Danny needed to pick in this draft again?
when you compare anyone to perfection it is easy to pick at their faults.
"Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal"?
That is legitimately one of the most foolish things I have ever read on this board.
His nickname is trader Danny, but he lacks the fortitude to deal?
What?
Can we have Coachbo post without people immediately attacking him (or her, don't want to be presumptuous.) Sure he is a bit more pessimistic than the average CBer, but every board needs that. And this is coming from someone on the other side of the Jaylen fence as him.
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- Jaylen Brown
- Marcus Smart
- Terry Rozier
- Jordan Mickey
- Demetrius Jackson
That means next year you'd have those guys, plus the following:
- Top 4 2017 pick
- #36 2017
- A couple second round picks from the 50-60 range
- Ante Zizic
- Guerschon Yabusele
As far as I am concerned, this list has 2 role players, 2 NBDL players, 3 unknowns, and a bunch of picks. It's not a bad haul to have in your back pocket, but there isn't one item I can point at here and say without reservations that it's the real thing.
Building a successful team takes a lot more than individual talent, but I too seem to think that the future is not as bright it might seem, considering how our current "young veteran core" has bombed so far.
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That means next year you'd have those guys, plus the following:
- Top 4 2017 pick
- #36 2017
- A couple second round picks from the 50-60 range
- Ante Zizic
- Guerschon Yabusele
After watching the Red Claws in the playoffs, I am astounded that folks think Yabusele is going to a major force anytime soon.
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That means next year you'd have those guys, plus the following:
- Top 4 2017 pick
- #36 2017
- A couple second round picks from the 50-60 range
- Ante Zizic
- Guerschon Yabusele
After watching the Red Claws in the playoffs, I am astounded that folks think Yabusele is going to a major force anytime soon.
Yeah, I'm not convinced he's an NBA player.
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- Jaylen Brown
- Marcus Smart
- Terry Rozier
- Jordan Mickey
- Demetrius Jackson
That means next year you'd have those guys, plus the following:
- Top 4 2017 pick
- #36 2017
- A couple second round picks from the 50-60 range
- Ante Zizic
- Guerschon Yabusele
As far as I am concerned, this list has 2 role players, 2 NBDL players, 3 unknowns, and a bunch of picks. It's not a bad haul to have in your back pocket, but there isn't one item I can point at here and say without reservations that it's the real thing.
Building a successful team takes a lot more than individual talent, but I too seem to think that the future is not as bright it might seem, considering how our current "young veteran core" has bombed so far.
Personally I look at that list and feel it's a decent enough starting point. Still, you're right that other than Jaylen Brown and the top 4 2017 pick, it's rather slim pickings.
If you sent out a starting lineup next season of Smart, Brown, Nets 2017, Rozier/Mickey, and Zizic, I think that team would have a difficult time getting to 15 wins.
Nonetheless, the Celts are in a position where they can try to juice this current group into a contender, or they can sell off the win-now assets they have and go all-in on youth.
While the youth and picks the team has right now wouldn't be enough to make a future contender, it's not a bad starting point if the team had to go for a youth movement. I'd say it would be kinda like beginning a rebuild a few years in as opposed to having to start entirely from scratch and totally tank for 3-4 years to build a talent base.
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Good questions, one and all.
I, too, am less than sold on the future of this franchise, particularly if the draft is where we end up putting all our marbles because Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal.
His draft record, wildly distorted on this this blog by his supporters, simply isn't good enough to warrant my faith.
LOL.
We all know that if you were running things we would be hunting banner 22 right now.
Ainge is a clear cut, no debate, top 5 GM in this league.
Your constant whining on the matter gets quite old.
Who did you think Danny needed to pick in this draft again?
when you compare anyone to perfection it is easy to pick at their faults.
"Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal"?
That is legitimately one of the most foolish things I have ever read on this board.
His nickname is trader Danny, but he lacks the fortitude to deal?
What?
TP for calling him on his BS. always a put down but never a solution offered.
Danny Ainge may be a number of things but afraid to make a deal he is not.
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That means next year you'd have those guys, plus the following:
- Top 4 2017 pick
- #36 2017
- A couple second round picks from the 50-60 range
- Ante Zizic
- Guerschon Yabusele
After watching the Red Claws in the playoffs, I am astounded that folks think Yabusele is going to a major force anytime soon.
yes, let's wait and see on zizic and yabusele. they both look to have promise, but we really wont know for another 2-3 years.
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- Jaylen Brown
- Marcus Smart
- Terry Rozier
- Jordan Mickey
- Demetrius Jackson
That means next year you'd have those guys, plus the following:
- Top 4 2017 pick
- #36 2017
- A couple second round picks from the 50-60 range
- Ante Zizic
- Guerschon Yabusele
As far as I am concerned, this list has 2 role players, 2 NBDL players, 3 unknowns, and a bunch of picks. It's not a bad haul to have in your back pocket, but there isn't one item I can point at here and say without reservations that it's the real thing.
Building a successful team takes a lot more than individual talent, but I too seem to think that the future is not as bright it might seem, considering how our current "young veteran core" has bombed so far.
Personally I look at that list and feel it's a decent enough starting point. Still, you're right that other than Jaylen Brown and the top 4 2017 pick, it's rather slim pickings.
If you sent out a starting lineup next season of Smart, Brown, Nets 2017, Rozier/Mickey, and Zizic, I think that team would have a difficult time getting to 15 wins.
Nonetheless, the Celts are in a position where they can try to juice this current group into a contender, or they can sell off the win-now assets they have and go all-in on youth.
While the youth and picks the team has right now wouldn't be enough to make a future contender, it's not a bad starting point if the team had to go for a youth movement. I'd say it would be kinda like beginning a rebuild a few years in as opposed to having to start entirely from scratch and totally tank for 3-4 years to build a talent base.
My point is that on the asset front, there's nothing to point at and say that it's worth building around. This may well change with the current draft, but I feel that our success is largely predicated on how good the current core can be down the road... and the current core has whiffed pretty badly when it has mattered... at least so far.
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Good questions, one and all.
I, too, am less than sold on the future of this franchise, particularly if the draft is where we end up putting all our marbles because Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal.
His draft record, wildly distorted on this this blog by his supporters, simply isn't good enough to warrant my faith.
LOL.
We all know that if you were running things we would be hunting banner 22 right now.
Ainge is a clear cut, no debate, top 5 GM in this league.
Your constant whining on the matter gets quite old.
Who did you think Danny needed to pick in this draft again?
when you compare anyone to perfection it is easy to pick at their faults.
"Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal"?
That is legitimately one of the most foolish things I have ever read on this board.
His nickname is trader Danny, but he lacks the fortitude to deal?
What?
Can we have Coachbo post without people immediately attacking him (or her, don't want to be presumptuous.) Sure he is a bit more pessimistic than the average CBer, but every board needs that. And this is coming from someone on the other side of the Jaylen fence as him.
"A bit more pessimistic"
lol, that is like saying mount everest is just a hill.
Saying Ainge "lacks the fortitude to deal" is an absolutely rediculous thing to say, and should be called out.
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Let's see.
50 win team
Flexibility up to a max player in terms of cap
top 4 pick this year.
Another lotto pick next year without having to tank.
I am good with the current future.
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Let's see.
50 win team
Flexibility up to a max player in terms of cap
top 4 pick this year.
Another lotto pick next year without having to tank.
I am good with the current future.
But if the C's get swept by the Bulls or lose to the #8 seeded Bulls, free agents will not want to come play for Boston- they simply suck and are overrated. That leaves us with lottery luck.
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The reason those three teams have better cores:
1) Celtics weren't willing to truly tank, and the years they did (or had Brooklyn's pick) they weren't lucky in the lottery. The Smart year there really wasn't anybody else worth taking at 6 that would have moved the needle either. That was a year where if you didn't get Embiid or Wiggins you probably got an OK but not great player (jury's out on Parker and Gordon still).
2) Milwaukee was smart enough to pick Giannis in 2013. Celtics were not.
3) Minnesota has been lucky twice - winning the Towns lottery and having Love at the exact time the Cavs had a first overall pick where there was an obvious no-brainer no 1 in Wiggins. I don't really give them a whole lot of credit for making those moves because most GMs wouldn't be dumb enough to not do it exactly the same way. If the timing had been different, they would have had to take a lesser deal for Love as at the time his value was definitely not "first overall pick" level. But LeBron basically told Cleveland they had to make the deal and here we are.
4) The Sixers were willing to tank and the more chances you have in the lottery, eventually you'll get some good picks. They had better odds last year and got Simmons while we got Brown. Not much you can do about ping pong balls falling the wrong way there.
So with a little luck, the Celtics could have easily had Simmons and/or Embiid, but it didn't happen that way. In the Towns draft they played too well unexpectedly to have a good pick and missed out on a chance to draft Devin Booker or Myles Turner, but they wanted Isaiah so what can you do?
Boston decided they didn't really want to go a full tank route, and that's commendable, but that also means they needed to draft awesomely with the picks they did have. So far, they haven't drafted awesomely, they've just drafted allright/mediocrely, and they also haven't been lucky the couple times they had a shot at the top picks. Finally they didn't take Giannis. So that's why we are where we are.
I should also note that the Celtics were hurt by being in a significantly weaker Eastern Conference for a few of those years. Their record was inflated and it hurt their draft position. The Sixers were so bad those years that they practically gave all Eastern Conference teams an extra 1-2 automatic wins.
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Good questions, one and all.
I, too, am less than sold on the future of this franchise, particularly if the draft is where we end up putting all our marbles because Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal.
His draft record, wildly distorted on this this blog by his supporters, simply isn't good enough to warrant my faith.
LOL.
We all know that if you were running things we would be hunting banner 22 right now.
Ainge is a clear cut, no debate, top 5 GM in this league.
Your constant whining on the matter gets quite old.
Who did you think Danny needed to pick in this draft again?
when you compare anyone to perfection it is easy to pick at their faults.
"Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal"?
That is legitimately one of the most foolish things I have ever read on this board.
His nickname is trader Danny, but he lacks the fortitude to deal?
What?
Can we have Coachbo post without people immediately attacking him (or her, don't want to be presumptuous.) Sure he is a bit more pessimistic than the average CBer, but every board needs that. And this is coming from someone on the other side of the Jaylen fence as him.
"A bit more pessimistic"
lol, that is like saying mount everest is just a hill.
Saying Ainge "lacks the fortitude to deal" is an absolutely rediculous thing to say, and should be called out.
It's "ridiculous."
And I'm certain you're prepared to list the trades Ainge made to strengthen the club at the trade deadline.
Or last summer.
Or at the 2016 trade deadline ...
Shall I continue?
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The reason those three teams have better cores:
1) Celtics weren't willing to truly tank, and the years they did (or had Brooklyn's pick) they weren't lucky in the lottery. The Smart year there really wasn't anybody else worth taking at 6 that would have moved the needle either. That was a year where if you didn't get Embiid or Wiggins you probably got an OK but not great player (jury's out on Parker and Gordon still).
2) Milwaukee was smart enough to pick Giannis in 2013. Celtics were not.
3) Minnesota has been lucky twice - winning the Towns lottery and having Love at the exact time the Cavs had a first overall pick where there was an obvious no-brainer no 1 in Wiggins. I don't really give them a whole lot of credit for making those moves because most GMs wouldn't be dumb enough to not do it exactly the same way. If the timing had been different, they would have had to take a lesser deal for Love as at the time his value was definitely not "first overall pick" level. But LeBron basically told Cleveland they had to make the deal and here we are.
4) The Sixers were willing to tank and the more chances you have in the lottery, eventually you'll get some good picks. They had better odds last year and got Simmons while we got Brown. Not much you can do about ping pong balls falling the wrong way there.
So with a little luck, the Celtics could have easily had Simmons and/or Embiid, but it didn't happen that way. In the Towns draft they played too well unexpectedly to have a good pick and missed out on a chance to draft Devin Booker or Myles Turner, but they wanted Isaiah so what can you do?
Boston decided they didn't really want to go a full tank route, and that's commendable, but that also means they needed to draft awesomely with the picks they did have. So far, they haven't drafted awesomely, they've just drafted allright/mediocrely, and they also haven't been lucky the couple times they had a shot at the top picks. Finally they didn't take Giannis. So that's why we are where we are.
I should also note that the Celtics were hurt by being in a significantly weaker Eastern Conference for a few of those years. Their record was inflated and it hurt their draft position. The Sixers were so bad those years that they practically gave all Eastern Conference teams an extra 1-2 automatic wins.
This is one of the few honest takes on the Celtics' actual situation, not littered with one fabrication after another, that I've seen recently on this board. Ordinarily have to rely on Roy Hobbs for those.
Well done. TP.
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Good questions, one and all.
I, too, am less than sold on the future of this franchise, particularly if the draft is where we end up putting all our marbles because Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal.
His draft record, wildly distorted on this this blog by his supporters, simply isn't good enough to warrant my faith.
LOL.
We all know that if you were running things we would be hunting banner 22 right now.
Ainge is a clear cut, no debate, top 5 GM in this league.
Your constant whining on the matter gets quite old.
Who did you think Danny needed to pick in this draft again?
when you compare anyone to perfection it is easy to pick at their faults.
"Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal"?
That is legitimately one of the most foolish things I have ever read on this board.
His nickname is trader Danny, but he lacks the fortitude to deal?
What?
Can we have Coachbo post without people immediately attacking him (or her, don't want to be presumptuous.) Sure he is a bit more pessimistic than the average CBer, but every board needs that. And this is coming from someone on the other side of the Jaylen fence as him.
"A bit more pessimistic"
lol, that is like saying mount everest is just a hill.
Saying Ainge "lacks the fortitude to deal" is an absolutely rediculous thing to say, and should be called out.
It's "ridiculous."
And I'm certain you're prepared to list the trades Ainge made to strengthen the club at the trade deadline.
Or last summer.
Or at the 2016 trade deadline ...
Shall I continue?
Please do, because you really don't have anywhere else to go with that.
Because he didn't make a trade the last two seasons he doesn't have the fortitude to trade?
Even though, out of all GM's, he is one of the more active traders out there?
Your logic is painful...
We have a top 5 GM, who, like every other GM, isn't perfect.
Get over yourself.
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Good questions, one and all.
I, too, am less than sold on the future of this franchise, particularly if the draft is where we end up putting all our marbles because Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal.
His draft record, wildly distorted on this this blog by his supporters, simply isn't good enough to warrant my faith.
LOL.
We all know that if you were running things we would be hunting banner 22 right now.
Ainge is a clear cut, no debate, top 5 GM in this league.
Your constant whining on the matter gets quite old.
Who did you think Danny needed to pick in this draft again?
when you compare anyone to perfection it is easy to pick at their faults.
"Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal"?
That is legitimately one of the most foolish things I have ever read on this board.
His nickname is trader Danny, but he lacks the fortitude to deal?
What?
Can we have Coachbo post without people immediately attacking him (or her, don't want to be presumptuous.) Sure he is a bit more pessimistic than the average CBer, but every board needs that. And this is coming from someone on the other side of the Jaylen fence as him.
"A bit more pessimistic"
lol, that is like saying mount everest is just a hill.
Saying Ainge "lacks the fortitude to deal" is an absolutely rediculous thing to say, and should be called out.
It's "ridiculous."
And I'm certain you're prepared to list the trades Ainge made to strengthen the club at the trade deadline.
Or last summer.
Or at the 2016 trade deadline ...
Shall I continue?
Is this for real?? Three years ago, Danny made approximately 9 billion trades to completely remake the roster including one where he acquired a future MVP candidate for what amounted to a a ham sandwich and a side of pickles. Last year, he didn't make a move to "strengthen" the roster because "strengthen the roster to what??" I'm sorry Danny didn't feel the need to waste assets on an incomplete roster and sabotage future flexibility for your immediate viewing pleasure. He chose not to trade for Horford because he believed they could get him in the offseason. And whaddayaknow?? It happened. "Shall I continue?" Hilarious...
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Compare us to Philly. In my reading of the situation, Smart is still an elite prospect, because he's becoming Ron Artest 2.0, which is valuable. Let's say that Philly doesn't get LA's pick, their top assets are:
Embiid
Saric
Simmons
Philly '17 pick
Philly '18 pick
Ours are:
Marcus Smart
Jaylen Brown
Ante Zizic
Brooklyn '17 pick
Brooklyn '18 pick
I think our top 5 assets and theirs are close in value. Imagine the opportunity to put up stats that any/all of Smart/Brown/Zizic would have had on Philly's dreadful roster. Embiid and Simmons being injury-prone is something to think about, too.
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The original post in this thread has an extremely lazy premise. The post chooses to identify the "future" primarily as an observation of our current recent draftees as if that encompasses the totality of that term. Confirmation bias at its highest. The reason our future is so bright has more to do with the totality of our options and avenues to improve our current roster. What other franchise is in the position to outsource their tanking?? Seriously. They have cap space. They have flexible contracts. They have a young coach who has coached an All-Star team already. Over the next couple of years we will be in position to truly flesh out a core of talented players through multiple avenues. Doesn't mean, all rookies from the draft. Doesn't mean all free agents. Doesn't mean exclusively through trades. So if you want to whine about Danny's "bad drafting"? Good news: Danny won't acquire all of his new talent specifically as 19 year old rookies. You want to complain about his trades. "Danny doesn't trade enough for my personal satisfaction." Guess what. Danny is likely gonna make some moves through the draft and through free agency. Or if you're one of those "Danny signed Horford...he doesn't know what he's doing in free agency!!!!! And I'm MAD!!! GGRRRRRRRR!!!!!!" Good news for you too buddy. There's the draft and trades. Seriously, there's something in here for EVERYONE. That's what he's done. Unless you just don't like Danny period, which is possible. Maybe you just don't like his face. And that's totally cool. But looking at assets in a vacuum is an easiest way to misevaluate what we have going for us here.
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Compare us to Philly. In my reading of the situation, Smart is still an elite prospect, because he's becoming Ron Artest 2.0, which is valuable. Let's say that Philly doesn't get LA's pick, their top assets are:
Embiid
Saric
Simmons
Philly '17 pick
Philly '18 pick
Ours are:
Marcus Smart
Jaylen Brown
Ante Zizic
Brooklyn '17 pick
Brooklyn '18 pick
I think our top 5 assets and theirs are close in value. Imagine the opportunity to put up stats that any/all of Smart/Brown/Zizic would have had on Philly's dreadful roster. Embiid and Simmons being injury-prone is something to think about, too.
Comparable? We probably have one of the top 5 assets in this entire lot.
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Question... Why are we comparing out assets to Philly?
Lets look at this more as a whole, Philly has endured the worst losing stretch in NBA history to obtain this talent.
We've been in the playoffs the last 3 years. Shouldn't we compare our assets to other playoff teams?
I mean, surely no one can honestly think we have better assets then Philly, whos tanked 4 years in a row to obtain them, while we are winning 40-50 games a season. Why we doing this?
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The reason those three teams have better cores:
1) Celtics weren't willing to truly tank, and the years they did (or had Brooklyn's pick) they weren't lucky in the lottery. The Smart year there really wasn't anybody else worth taking at 6 that would have moved the needle either. That was a year where if you didn't get Embiid or Wiggins you probably got an OK but not great player (jury's out on Parker and Gordon still).
2) Milwaukee was smart enough to pick Giannis in 2013. Celtics were not.
3) Minnesota has been lucky twice - winning the Towns lottery and having Love at the exact time the Cavs had a first overall pick where there was an obvious no-brainer no 1 in Wiggins. I don't really give them a whole lot of credit for making those moves because most GMs wouldn't be dumb enough to not do it exactly the same way. If the timing had been different, they would have had to take a lesser deal for Love as at the time his value was definitely not "first overall pick" level. But LeBron basically told Cleveland they had to make the deal and here we are.
4) The Sixers were willing to tank and the more chances you have in the lottery, eventually you'll get some good picks. They had better odds last year and got Simmons while we got Brown. Not much you can do about ping pong balls falling the wrong way there.
So with a little luck, the Celtics could have easily had Simmons and/or Embiid, but it didn't happen that way. In the Towns draft they played too well unexpectedly to have a good pick and missed out on a chance to draft Devin Booker or Myles Turner, but they wanted Isaiah so what can you do?
Boston decided they didn't really want to go a full tank route, and that's commendable, but that also means they needed to draft awesomely with the picks they did have. So far, they haven't drafted awesomely, they've just drafted allright/mediocrely, and they also haven't been lucky the couple times they had a shot at the top picks. Finally they didn't take Giannis. So that's why we are where we are.
I should also note that the Celtics were hurt by being in a significantly weaker Eastern Conference for a few of those years. Their record was inflated and it hurt their draft position. The Sixers were so bad those years that they practically gave all Eastern Conference teams an extra 1-2 automatic wins.
This is one of the few honest takes on the Celtics' actual situation, not littered with one fabrication after another, that I've seen recently on this board. Ordinarily have to rely on Roy Hobbs for those.
Well done. TP.
lol...I like how you can't dispute that Danny is a top 5 GM yet you constantly complain and act like you know better.
Good for some comedy on this slow Friday afternoon at least.
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Compare us to Philly. In my reading of the situation, Smart is still an elite prospect, because he's becoming Ron Artest 2.0, which is valuable. Let's say that Philly doesn't get LA's pick, their top assets are:
Embiid
Saric
Simmons
Philly '17 pick
Philly '18 pick
Ours are:
Marcus Smart
Jaylen Brown
Ante Zizic
Brooklyn '17 pick
Brooklyn '18 pick
I think our top 5 assets and theirs are close in value. Imagine the opportunity to put up stats that any/all of Smart/Brown/Zizic would have had on Philly's dreadful roster. Embiid and Simmons being injury-prone is something to think about, too.
you may be spot on. but, as greece666 used to say, prediction is difficult, especially about the future.
for example, what were the early predictions about okafur? about noel? i see your list for philly and perhaps it will all pan out, giving them multiple all stars. but i also think the player ceilings might turn out something such as this:
embiid - injuries make him oden 2.0, or limit his abilities
saric - a great rotation guy, but not a go-to guy on a top quality team
simmons - great passer who cannot play defense, is timid in scoring, medicore rebounder, and cant shoot. ala some of the cb predictions for smart - valuable, but flawed rotation player.
Philly picks in 17 and 18...see noel and okafur above. the lottery is really is a gamble and thus far philly is batting .500, tops.
philly might be sitting pretty in 5 years. but it is not a lock. conversely, philly might have a handful of talented but flawed players with important limitations. let's wait and see. ;D
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Let's see.
50 win team
Flexibility up to a max player in terms of cap
top 4 pick this year.
Another lotto pick next year without having to tank.
I am good with the current future.
But if the C's get swept by the Bulls or lose to the #8 seeded Bulls, free agents will not want to come play for Boston- they simply suck and are overrated. That leaves us with lottery luck.
Why? Celtic's didn't win a series last year and Horford came.
A 50 win team in need of a star to come play with good players and a coach that seem to be well liked.
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To say we dont have a good future because other teams are further along in their rebuild is dumb.
For how many seasons have the bucks been terrible? In the last 10 years the bucks have 8 seasons under 40 wins. We won a championship 9 years ago.
Philly has has been tanking for HALF A DECADE to get where they are. We had 1 year where we missed the playoffs.
We cant be compared to these teams. It's pointless. We do have a bright future, not as bright as theirs, but they have suffered way way more then us to get that. Thats typically how it goes.
So why are people arguing about it?
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I think we should feel good about the comparison to Philly. They've been tanking for years. We've had an early-exit playoff team to root for overlaid on top of that comparable pile of assets. We've got all the same fruits for almost none of the suffering. We haven't even discussed what extra assets a fire sale of our starting lineup would hypothetically fetch us. Our future is superb. Best future in the league or very close to it.
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The Celtics have a very promising future. They have two young players with potential (Smart and Brown), two very solid players in IT and Horford, and two decent two-way players in Avery Bradley and Jae Crowder. 6 players that I like on this current roster.
They have the ability to draft in the top 4 this year, and most likely in the next year. No other team with 50+ wins can come close to saying that. Look at the teams drafting with the Celtics in the 2014 draft (when I consider the Celtics hitting their bottom inflection point). Other than the Cavs and arguably Milwaukee, the Celtics are in a better position than virtually every other team in the top 20.
In three years, Danny has catapulted this franchise into the top 10 based on roster, reg season wins, and future draft capital.
Are they top 3? Nope.
I'll take the glass half full view on the team. The haters can try to patch together some reason that the Celtics are in some bad situation....
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It's funny to me how fans covet those high draft choices so much, but now that we have them, those same fans look down on those picks like trash.
I mean hello?? We picked #6, then #3, and we have the best chance at #1 overall this year.
Next year is probably going to be a top 4-6 pick as well.
You can't ask for much more in terms of high draft picks.
AND we are winning and in the playoffs two years in a row now WHILE having those high draft choices.
The Future is as bright as any NBA team out there.
I'd rather be us than the Sixers or the Lakers right now.
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Good questions, one and all.
I, too, am less than sold on the future of this franchise, particularly if the draft is where we end up putting all our marbles because Ainge lacks the fortitude to deal.
His draft record, wildly distorted on this this blog by his supporters, simply isn't good enough to warrant my faith.
Didn't Ainge trade the 5th pick for Ray Allen, thus acquiring KG and winning a championship in the SAME season? Did you forget about this?
His draft record simply isn't good enough to warrant your faith? Jeepers.
I liked the JB, Smart, and Avery drafts. I hated the KO pick and was wishy washy on Rozier. He had some clunkers before this but the positioning wasn't great to pick a star. Yes, GS and Milwaukee made better picks with Draymond and Green. A lot of other teams feel this way.
Fultz, Josh Jackson, or Tatum will be available. I'm happy with any of them. Then we'll have a chance to do the same thing next year, this time with bigs in the top 5.
What is wrong with this scenario?
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Compare us to Philly. In my reading of the situation, Smart is still an elite prospect, because he's becoming Ron Artest 2.0, which is valuable. Let's say that Philly doesn't get LA's pick, their top assets are:
Embiid
Saric
Simmons
Philly '17 pick
Philly '18 pick
Ours are:
Marcus Smart
Jaylen Brown
Ante Zizic
Brooklyn '17 pick
Brooklyn '18 pick
I think our top 5 assets and theirs are close in value. Imagine the opportunity to put up stats that any/all of Smart/Brown/Zizic would have had on Philly's dreadful roster. Embiid and Simmons being injury-prone is something to think about, too.
you may be spot on. but, as greece666 used to say, prediction is difficult, especially about the future.
for example, what were the early predictions about okafur? about noel? i see your list for philly and perhaps it will all pan out, giving them multiple all stars. but i also think the player ceilings might turn out something such as this:
embiid - injuries make him oden 2.0, or limit his abilities
saric - a great rotation guy, but not a go-to guy on a top quality team
simmons - great passer who cannot play defense, is timid in scoring, medicore rebounder, and cant shoot. ala some of the cb predictions for smart - valuable, but flawed rotation player.
Philly picks in 17 and 18...see noel and okafur above. the lottery is really is a gamble and thus far philly is batting .500, tops.
philly might be sitting pretty in 5 years. but it is not a lock. conversely, philly might have a handful of talented but flawed players with important limitations. let's wait and see. ;D
Embiid has already shown himself to be a 2 way dominant center so it is all about his health. I expect Saric will just top out as a good role player not a star. I don't see a basis for saying Simmons will be timid in scoring or a mediocre rebounder. He averaged 19.2 pts, 9 ftas and 11.9 rebs in college. He also can play defense but he just didn't put forth the effort a lot of the time. Coach Brown and Embiid won't let him get away with that. The success of Giannis running the Bucks offense bodes well for Simmons since he's a much better passer and ball handler. Besides their own 2 picks the Sixers also get the Lakers pick either 4th-6th this year or unprotected next year. When you've got a lot of picks, hitting on 50% works out pretty well.
As for us, we really need to get Fultz because Embiid, Simmons and Saric are >>>> Smart, Brown and Zizic.
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Embiid and Simmons have played how many games out of the games possible?
Embiid 31/164
Simmons 0/82
And how did the Sixers do this year?
28-54
Celtics?
53-29
Grass is always greener guys.
Even with the Celtics sitting on the top chances of the #1 overall pick in the draft.
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If the object of the exercise is to have a legit 8-10 year championship contender , then I don't see it unless one of the picks in this years draft becomes a top 20 level player , and that is going to take a few years to happen , sucks that after Danny's fleecing of Billy King that there isn't a Hakeem or Shaq level big man that is at the end of the rainbow for the C's to draft , History shows that you need 2-3 all star level players on your roster to compete for championships year after year.
As has been stated earlier in this thread ,losing the coin toss with Utah in 2014 and not moving up in the draft and only coming away with Smart at 6 blows, not having a tier one prospect to draft at 3 last year blows.
As great a GM as he is Ainge in being patient and winning so many of his trades over the years, sucks for him that the C's just haven't been lucky with the timeline of the Brooklyn picks.
Having multiple guys being top 5 at their positions and stepping up in the playoffs at this stage is a big pipe dream. So as far a being a championship level contender I don't see it for a good few years, I wouldn't be surprised if on the current roster there may be only 2 or 3 guys left over when the team gets to that level again.
Won't stop me from watching though.
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Embiid and Simmons have played how many games out of the games possible?
Embiid 31/164
Simmons 0/82
And how did the Sixers do this year?
28-54
Celtics?
53-29
Grass is always greener guys.
Even with the Celtics sitting on the top chances of the #1 overall pick in the draft.
It's even worse than you noted. Being Embiiid's 3rd year, he has actually only played in 31/246. Embiid is awesome if healthy, but that is a monumental 'if.'
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The future is unknown for every team, so all we can base it off of are assets and odds.
It's possible that Durant opts out next year, Curry gets like $30m/year and then gets injured.
Based upon our players, their contracts, and upcoming projected assets, our team is almost guaranteed to win a minimum of 45 games/year, and has good as odds of competing for a championship in 2 to 3 years as any team in the East (as it stands now). I too wish we had our superstar that could carry us in the playoffs, but I'm happy with our future.
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Embiid and Simmons have played how many games out of the games possible?
Embiid 31/164
Simmons 0/82
And how did the Sixers do this year?
28-54
Celtics?
53-29
Grass is always greener guys.
Even with the Celtics sitting on the top chances of the #1 overall pick in the draft.
To turn that around, the Sixers were able to go from 10 wins to 28 wins even though Embiid only played 31 games, Simmons played ZERO games and Bayless, an expected starter, only played 3 games. They had TJ McConnell, a 2nd year undrafted player, as their starting PG. Saric, Holmes and TLC showed significant improvement during the season. The Sixers have a chance to be much improved next season.
We do have the best chance at the #1 pick but even so that is only 25%. The Sixers have a 14.7% chance at the #1 pick. They also have a 53% chance of getting the Lakers pick (4th-6th).
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Hard to say. Aside from being too early to tell with Jaylen Brown, but th rest of the young guys have no future stars among them. Good players all in Smart, Olynyk, and the rest, but no stars yet, but with a couple more shots with Nets picks. With so many top-10's, Danny should be expected to draft 1, maybe 2.
So far, we have who we got: KO, Smart, and Brown. Could even Chris Paul and Deandre Jordan push those 3 to anything? Unless Brown pans out, I doubt it.
The surest thing is to trade picks for proven stars, but with short contracts for players/less team control, underpriced relative to cap rookie scale contracts and restricted free agency, it's tough to get value trading high picks. So we keep swinging hoping for at least a star or two.
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We really need a superstar to have a chance of making the finals. We can be a little better than we are now with some quality draft picks and Brown developing nicely, but we would need to figure out who to re-sign. We are in good shape to make the playoffs every year.
We are also in good shape to trade to an elite talent, but it isn't clear what would be left for that talent to play with unless we go for old guys. It is one thing to trade the 6th pick for an older player. It is another to trade a potential #1 in an excellent draft. Trading that would really need someone in their prime back, like the Wiggins-Love trade.
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Great if we trade Bradley , KO, Crowder , for ONE decent player.
And wave or let about four more go.
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How Good is Our Future, Really?
I can say without question that Danny's plan for rebuilding the team is nearly completely on-track, and that the future of this franchise (while unknown) looks very, very promising.
They are going to be loaded with young, talented potential and a coach that was hired not just for his basketball savvy but for his player development ability.
We cannot possibly give Ainge and Zarren enough credit for putting this team in the positive situation they are in right now.
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Embiid and Simmons have played how many games out of the games possible?
Embiid 31/164
Simmons 0/82
And how did the Sixers do this year?
28-54
Celtics?
53-29
Grass is always greener guys.
Even with the Celtics sitting on the top chances of the #1 overall pick in the draft.
To turn that around, the Sixers were able to go from 10 wins to 28 wins even though Embiid only played 31 games, Simmons played ZERO games and Bayless, an expected starter, only played 3 games. They had TJ McConnell, a 2nd year undrafted player, as their starting PG. Saric, Holmes and TLC showed significant improvement during the season. The Sixers have a chance to be much improved next season.
We do have the best chance at the #1 pick but even so that is only 25%. The Sixers have a 14.7% chance at the #1 pick. They also have a 53% chance of getting the Lakers pick (4th-6th).
Using Bayless as an argument means that it is very very weak.
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Our roster next season could include Fultz, Brown, Zizic, Smart, Rozier. That is a pretty good stable of young players. Plus we will also probably win in the range of 50 games but get a top 5 pick with any luck.
When most of the draft picks are 19 years old, it is tough to know what you have. We don't need all of them to be big wins, we just need one or two to become top players. The same thing Minnesota is hoping, the same thing Philadelphia is hoping.
There is a chance that Fultz becomes the next Westbrook (or whoever we pick becomes the next whoever) and that brown is the next Jimmy Butler and that Zizic becomes the next say Horford. That could be a pretty good team in 4 or 5 years. No guarantees, that is just how rebuilding works. There is no pixie dust that grants you a sure fire rebuilding plan.
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I posted a majority of this comment on another thread, but realized it was kind of off-topic.
I see a lot of talk on the Blog about how the future is our time. Names like Jaylen, Smart, both Nets picks, and sometimes Rozier get thrown out there. And I don't disagree. However...
How good of a future are our young people/assets, really? The Nets picks are still unknowns and I won't enter the controversy about Danny being a 'bad drafter', but we should all be able to agree that drafting isn't his strongest suit. I'd say he's gone 1 for 2 in the top 6 so far.
Let's be real. The Bucks, Wolves and even Philly with their picks look like they may have brighter future cores than ours. The Sixers could own two top 5 picks this year, and let's not forget Embiid and Simmons both have higher upside than anyone on our entire roster.
I love Smart's D but offense is simply more important, and Smart is bad at it. He's less of a prospect than Wiggins; he's probably less of a prospect than Middleton. Jaylen is less of a prospect than both Towns and the Greek Freak. And that doesn't even include Lavine's upside, a Wolves lotto pick in a deep draft, Jabari Parker, Maker, & Brogdon (who owns us).
Even if the future is our time, and even if we pick the BPA with both picks (however high they turn out to be) - can we really say in early 2017 that we have a top 3 young core/asset pool?
Compare us to Philly. In my reading of the situation, Smart is still an elite prospect, because he's becoming Ron Artest 2.0, which is valuable. Let's say that Philly doesn't get LA's pick, their top assets are:
Embiid
Saric
Simmons
Philly '17 pick
Philly '18 pick
Ours are:
Marcus Smart
Jaylen Brown
Ante Zizic
Brooklyn '17 pick
Brooklyn '18 pick
I think our top 5 assets and theirs are close in value. Imagine the opportunity to put up stats that any/all of Smart/Brown/Zizic would have had on Philly's dreadful roster. Embiid and Simmons being injury-prone is something to think about, too.
you may be spot on. but, as greece666 used to say, prediction is difficult, especially about the future.
for example, what were the early predictions about okafur? about noel? i see your list for philly and perhaps it will all pan out, giving them multiple all stars. but i also think the player ceilings might turn out something such as this:
embiid - injuries make him oden 2.0, or limit his abilities
saric - a great rotation guy, but not a go-to guy on a top quality team
simmons - great passer who cannot play defense, is timid in scoring, medicore rebounder, and cant shoot. ala some of the cb predictions for smart - valuable, but flawed rotation player.
Philly picks in 17 and 18...see noel and okafur above. the lottery is really is a gamble and thus far philly is batting .500, tops.
philly might be sitting pretty in 5 years. but it is not a lock. conversely, philly might have a handful of talented but flawed players with important limitations. let's wait and see. ;D
Embiid has already shown himself to be a 2 way dominant center so it is all about his health. I expect Saric will just top out as a good role player not a star. I don't see a basis for saying Simmons will be timid in scoring or a mediocre rebounder. He averaged 19.2 pts, 9 ftas and 11.9 rebs in college. He also can play defense but he just didn't put forth the effort a lot of the time. Coach Brown and Embiid won't let him get away with that. The success of Giannis running the Bucks offense bodes well for Simmons since he's a much better passer and ball handler. Besides their own 2 picks the Sixers also get the Lakers pick either 4th-6th this year or unprotected next year. When you've got a lot of picks, hitting on 50% works out pretty well.
As for us, we really need to get Fultz because Embiid, Simmons and Saric are >>>> Smart, Brown and Zizic.
good point, thanks for the reply and a tp.
just a bit more on simmons since, honestly, i have serious questions on parts of his game.
one of the hits on him in scouting reports, and it was confirmed by a handful of summer games (sss) was his shot is absolutely bad. as if we use college as an indicator (iffy to do so, but what the heck) at 3 point shooting, in 33 games simmons took THREE TOTAL three pointers, and made ONE. he shot FT at 67%, not terrible, not great. so yes, it is legitimate to raise questions about his shooting.
also, he is hesitant to play hard physical contact basketball. hence my question (and it is really that, a question) on his ability to rebound in the nba the same way he rebounded in college. plus he wont have the consistent height mismatches.
finally, defense, simmons, according to every report i have seen, is not good at it. now, you raise the fair point that he might improve since physically he has the ability to play better defense. you may be right. but again, my question (aiirt,aq) is how did the coaching staff and embiid do in teaching okafur how to play defense?
see? i am not contradicting your points, but i am posing questions, real legitimate questions, that have not been answered yet.
that is why i finished my original post here with the caveat that we all need to be patient and wait and see before coming to any conclusions.
p.s. personally, questions aside, i think your take on saric is probably spot on.
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Embiid and Simmons have played how many games out of the games possible?
Embiid 31/164
Simmons 0/82
And how did the Sixers do this year?
28-54
Celtics?
53-29
Grass is always greener guys.
Even with the Celtics sitting on the top chances of the #1 overall pick in the draft.
To turn that around, the Sixers were able to go from 10 wins to 28 wins even though Embiid only played 31 games, Simmons played ZERO games and Bayless, an expected starter, only played 3 games. They had TJ McConnell, a 2nd year undrafted player, as their starting PG. Saric, Holmes and TLC showed significant improvement during the season. The Sixers have a chance to be much improved next season.
We do have the best chance at the #1 pick but even so that is only 25%. The Sixers have a 14.7% chance at the #1 pick. They also have a 53% chance of getting the Lakers pick (4th-6th).
. Bayless couldn't be less relevant. Don't lose your point by acting like that was some significant loss.
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I'm confused as to why we're comparing future assets with Philly and Minnesota, when in addition to our prospects and picks we also have a core that won 50 games this year. We aren't just going to let everyone of those players walk away, so you either have to factor in them or asssts we could get for them.
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I'm confused as to why we're comparing future assets with Philly and Minnesota, when in addition to our prospects and picks we also have a core that won 50 games this year. We aren't just going to let everyone of those players walk away, so you either have to factor in them or asssts we could get for them.
Sixers are still in tank mode so it is impossible to know what they have.
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I'm confused as to why we're comparing future assets with Philly and Minnesota, when in addition to our prospects and picks we also have a core that won 50 games this year. We aren't just going to let everyone of those players walk away, so you either have to factor in them or asssts we could get for them.
Because that's what the NBA2KTradeMachine does to basketball.
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Embiid and Simmons have played how many games out of the games possible?
Embiid 31/164
Simmons 0/82
And how did the Sixers do this year?
28-54
Celtics?
53-29
Grass is always greener guys.
Even with the Celtics sitting on the top chances of the #1 overall pick in the draft.
To turn that around, the Sixers were able to go from 10 wins to 28 wins even though Embiid only played 31 games, Simmons played ZERO games and Bayless, an expected starter, only played 3 games. They had TJ McConnell, a 2nd year undrafted player, as their starting PG. Saric, Holmes and TLC showed significant improvement during the season. The Sixers have a chance to be much improved next season.
We do have the best chance at the #1 pick but even so that is only 25%. The Sixers have a 14.7% chance at the #1 pick. They also have a 53% chance of getting the Lakers pick (4th-6th).
Using Bayless as an argument means that it is very very weak.
Ignore everything else and just focus on Bayless. That's a very, very weak response. Even so, Bayless will be replacing Rodiguez which should be a significant improvement. Bayless shot 43.7 3P% when he was playing with Giannis. He ought to be a good fit with Simmons and Embiid.
In any case, Simmons and especially Embiid are the keys. With Embiid on court, the Sixers had a team +/- of 2.2 and def rtg of 99.1. With him off court, the Sixers team +/- was -6.5 and def rtg was 108.1. So if the Embiid can play 60 or so games that will make a huge difference for the Sixers. Then you add in Simmons playing, the improvement of their other young players Saric, Holmes, TLC and probably somewhat improved vets plus whoever they acquire in the draft (53.1% 2 top 7 picks, 39.5% 2 top 5 picks).
Simmons, Bayless, Covington, Saric and Embiid is not a bad starting lineup. However if I'm the Sixers, I'd try to trade for Butler (or possibly George). I'd also see about getting Lowry in free agency. He's a hardcore North Philly guy and the Raptors may get bounced in the 1st round with limited options to improve.
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Embiid and Simmons have played how many games out of the games possible?
Embiid 31/164
Simmons 0/82
And how did the Sixers do this year?
28-54
Celtics?
53-29
Grass is always greener guys.
Even with the Celtics sitting on the top chances of the #1 overall pick in the draft.
To turn that around, the Sixers were able to go from 10 wins to 28 wins even though Embiid only played 31 games, Simmons played ZERO games and Bayless, an expected starter, only played 3 games. They had TJ McConnell, a 2nd year undrafted player, as their starting PG. Saric, Holmes and TLC showed significant improvement during the season. The Sixers have a chance to be much improved next season.
We do have the best chance at the #1 pick but even so that is only 25%. The Sixers have a 14.7% chance at the #1 pick. They also have a 53% chance of getting the Lakers pick (4th-6th).
. Bayless couldn't be less relevant. Don't lose your point by acting like that was some significant loss.
Bayless by himself isn't significant but Simmons and Embiid need good shooters around them to be most effective and Bayless could be one of those shooters. McConnell played surprising well for an undrafted 2nd year player but he only shot 20.0 3P%. Saric and TLC shot 31.1 and Covington with a horrendously poor start only shot 33.3. Besides getting Embiid and Simmons healthy, improving their shooting is the most significant improvement that the Sixers could make next season.
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Embiid and Simmons have played how many games out of the games possible?
Embiid 31/164
Simmons 0/82
And how did the Sixers do this year?
28-54
Celtics?
53-29
Grass is always greener guys.
Even with the Celtics sitting on the top chances of the #1 overall pick in the draft.
To turn that around, the Sixers were able to go from 10 wins to 28 wins even though Embiid only played 31 games, Simmons played ZERO games and Bayless, an expected starter, only played 3 games. They had TJ McConnell, a 2nd year undrafted player, as their starting PG. Saric, Holmes and TLC showed significant improvement during the season. The Sixers have a chance to be much improved next season.
We do have the best chance at the #1 pick but even so that is only 25%. The Sixers have a 14.7% chance at the #1 pick. They also have a 53% chance of getting the Lakers pick (4th-6th).
Using Bayless as an argument means that it is very very weak.
Ignore everything else and just focus on Bayless. That's a very, very weak response. Even so, Bayless will be replacing Rodiguez which should be a significant improvement. Bayless shot 43.7 3P% when he was playing with Giannis. He ought to be a good fit with Simmons and Embiid.
In any case, Simmons and especially Embiid are the keys. With Embiid on court, the Sixers had a team +/- of 2.2 and def rtg of 99.1. With him off court, the Sixers team +/- was -6.5 and def rtg was 108.1. So if the Embiid can play 60 or so games that will make a huge difference for the Sixers. Then you add in Simmons playing, the improvement of their other young players Saric, Holmes, TLC and probably somewhat improved vets plus whoever they acquire in the draft (53.1% 2 top 7 picks, 39.5% 2 top 5 picks).
Simmons, Bayless, Covington, Saric and Embiid is not a bad starting lineup. However if I'm the Sixers, I'd try to trade for Butler (or possibly George). I'd also see about getting Lowry in free agency. He's a hardcore North Philly guy and the Raptors may get bounced in the 1st round with limited options to improve.
but that's the rub, isn't it? we honestly don't know whether or not embiid will play, or play as well in the future.
what does the equation look like if we change the bolded to "with embiid off the court..."? this whole route by philly has not gone far enough to reasonably judge anything.
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nm. double post, sorry
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To say we dont have a good future because other teams are further along in their rebuild is dumb.
For how many seasons have the bucks been terrible? In the last 10 years the bucks have 8 seasons under 40 wins. We won a championship 9 years ago.
Philly has has been tanking for HALF A DECADE to get where they are. We had 1 year where we missed the playoffs.
We cant be compared to these teams. It's pointless. We do have a bright future, not as bright as theirs, but they have suffered way way more then us to get that. Thats typically how it goes.
So why are people arguing about it?
I never said we didn't have a good future, I asked how good it was. And we're making these comparisons because to win a championship, we have to beat Cleveland or Golden State in the short term or win in the medium to long term, and the 3 teams I mentioned have formidable cores moving forward in terms of potential, at least on paper. Not sure how anyone doesn't understand this.
Put it this way- do you think it's more likely we beat Golden State/whoever in the finals the next few years, or win our next title 4+ years from now?
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To say we dont have a good future because other teams are further along in their rebuild is dumb.
For how many seasons have the bucks been terrible? In the last 10 years the bucks have 8 seasons under 40 wins. We won a championship 9 years ago.
Philly has has been tanking for HALF A DECADE to get where they are. We had 1 year where we missed the playoffs.
We cant be compared to these teams. It's pointless. We do have a bright future, not as bright as theirs, but they have suffered way way more then us to get that. Thats typically how it goes.
So why are people arguing about it?
I never said we didn't have a good future, I asked how good it was. And we're making these comparisons because to win a championship, we have to beat Cleveland or Golden State in the short term or win in the medium to long term, and the 3 teams I mentioned have formidable cores moving forward in terms of potential, at least on paper. Not sure how anyone doesn't understand this.
Put it this way- do you think it's more likely we beat Golden State/whoever in the finals the next few years, or win our next title 4+ years from now?
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Embiid and Simmons have played how many games out of the games possible?
Embiid 31/164
Simmons 0/82
And how did the Sixers do this year?
28-54
Celtics?
53-29
Grass is always greener guys.
Even with the Celtics sitting on the top chances of the #1 overall pick in the draft.
To turn that around, the Sixers were able to go from 10 wins to 28 wins even though Embiid only played 31 games, Simmons played ZERO games and Bayless, an expected starter, only played 3 games. They had TJ McConnell, a 2nd year undrafted player, as their starting PG. Saric, Holmes and TLC showed significant improvement during the season. The Sixers have a chance to be much improved next season.
We do have the best chance at the #1 pick but even so that is only 25%. The Sixers have a 14.7% chance at the #1 pick. They also have a 53% chance of getting the Lakers pick (4th-6th).
. Bayless couldn't be less relevant. Don't lose your point by acting like that was some significant loss.
Bayless by himself isn't significant but Simmons and Embiid need good shooters around them to be most effective and Bayless could be one of those shooters. McConnell played surprising well for an undrafted 2nd year player but he only shot 20.0 3P%. Saric and TLC shot 31.1 and Covington with a horrendously poor start only shot 33.3. Besides getting Embiid and Simmons healthy, improving their shooting is the most significant improvement that the Sixers could make next season.
I mean they cut probably their best shooter in Hollis Thompson, which would be odd if they were extremely desperate for shooting. With respect to Bayless, he will be 29 next year and in his 10th NBA season he has never started 20 games in a season and usually that was as an injury replacement in spot starts. Also before his good final shooting season for the Bucks he was at 30% from 3 the previous two years. That is at the same level as TLC and Saric and Covington.
Again, if you are mentioning Bayless as something relevant you are hurting your point.