CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Ogaju on April 20, 2017, 02:08:39 AM
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Assume that a day before the first game of the playoffs a team suffers some kind of catastrophe that causes a devastating physical injury to its best players, and physical injury to all the other members of the team including the coach.
In this situation, there is no question they all will seek and get medical treatment, some will even be held out of the game because of their disability. Heck, the game could even be called off if enough of them were found physical unfit to play.
Why isnt the same standard applied to emotional injury? Why is that team expected to suck it up if the injury is mental? If the injury is emotional do they even get to seek medical intervention?
Of all body parts and systems, the human mind is probably still the most difficult to understand. Is it a mere coincidence that an emotionally traumatized team responds uncharacteristically after the trauma? If it had been physical injuries would their reduced productivity be more understandable, more accepted maybe?
Think about it?
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Because basketball is a physical sport so ya gotta get physical with each other, and second, it's a professional league and no excuses can be made for losing games.
Sorry. Wish emotional health could be reevaluated but it won't happen.
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Because basketball is a physical sport so ya gotta get physical with each other, and second, it's a professional league and no excuses can be made for losing games.
Sorry. Wish emotional health could be reevaluated but it won't happen.
Actually, the game is just as mental as it is physical, see what I mean about the lack of appreciation of emotional health issues? This is society as a whole, not limited to sports at all. No one has really bothered to ask how these players are emotionally? If it had been physical injuries we would have update on their health, MRI, X-Rays etc. But because this is mental, it somehow does not get the same attention. Society as a whole has to change attitudes towards mental health issues.
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Because basketball is a physical sport so ya gotta get physical with each other, and second, it's a professional league and no excuses can be made for losing games.
Sorry. Wish emotional health could be reevaluated but it won't happen.
Actually, the game is just as mental as it is physical, see what I mean about the lack of appreciation of emotional health issues? This is society as a whole, not limited to sports at all. No one has really bothered to ask how these players are emotionally? If it had been physical injuries we would have update on their health, MRI, X-Rays etc. But because this is mental, it somehow does not get the same attention. Society as a whole has to change attitudes towards mental health issues.
do you really want updates on the mental and emotional health of professional athletes?
I dont and I imagine Isaiah Thomas doesnt want that either.
Brad has already made it clear that Isaiah could have chosen to miss those games if he was not ready to go.
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Because basketball is a physical sport so ya gotta get physical with each other, and second, it's a professional league and no excuses can be made for losing games.
Sorry. Wish emotional health could be reevaluated but it won't happen.
Actually, the game is just as mental as it is physical, see what I mean about the lack of appreciation of emotional health issues? This is society as a whole, not limited to sports at all. No one has really bothered to ask how these players are emotionally? If it had been physical injuries we would have update on their health, MRI, X-Rays etc. But because this is mental, it somehow does not get the same attention. Society as a whole has to change attitudes towards mental health issues.
do you really want updates on the mental and emotional health of professional athletes?
I dont and I imagine Isaiah Thomas doesnt want that either.
Brad has already made it clear that Isaiah could have chosen to miss those games if he was not ready to go.
You have to ask yourself why is it that the league mandates updates on physical injuries, and you question whether there should be updates on mental injuries. Dont get upset with me, think about the stigma attached to something beyond the control of people. Oh wait, do you even believe that emotional injuries exist? If you do, why is it treated so differently from physical injuries? I agree that the player should have some input into playing when injured, but should that decision be made without medical guidance? If it is a physical injury medical guidance is provided. I guess you first have even decide whether you accept the concept of emotional trauma.
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Because basketball is a physical sport so ya gotta get physical with each other, and second, it's a professional league and no excuses can be made for losing games.
Sorry. Wish emotional health could be reevaluated but it won't happen.
Actually, the game is just as mental as it is physical, see what I mean about the lack of appreciation of emotional health issues? This is society as a whole, not limited to sports at all. No one has really bothered to ask how these players are emotionally? If it had been physical injuries we would have update on their health, MRI, X-Rays etc. But because this is mental, it somehow does not get the same attention. Society as a whole has to change attitudes towards mental health issues.
do you really want updates on the mental and emotional health of professional athletes?
I dont and I imagine Isaiah Thomas doesnt want that either.
Brad has already made it clear that Isaiah could have chosen to miss those games if he was not ready to go.
Isn't that part of what Twitter is for?
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Just adding to this. About 10 years ago I had a really bad tragedy in my life that was on par with what IT has gone through. It not only really screwed me up but everyone around me that didn't know how to act respond. Having gone through that experience I honestly think there is a very reasonable chance that this is playing A major role in the Celtics not being ready to play Celtics basketball. I know a lot of people just want a pound of flesh here and to say certain players are awful but it, and life, are a lot more complicated than that. It kind of makes it hard to read the forum right now although I do understand other's viewpoints on it.
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Just adding to this. About 10 years ago I had a really bad tragedy in my life that was on par with what IT has gone through. It not only really screwed me up but everyone around me that didn't know how to act respond. Having gone through that experience I honestly think there is a very reasonable chance that this is playing A major role in the Celtics not being ready to play Celtics basketball. I know a lot of people just want a pound of flesh here and to say certain players are awful but it, and life, are a lot more complicated than that. It kind of makes it hard to read the forum right now although I do understand other's viewpoints on it.
I also went through something similar to what IT is living right now. I can't find the words to explain how it felt that time.
What I see is that IT is amazing. I can't figure how he can perform as such level in that mental state. He must be on auto pilot...
What I don't understand is its teammates. Granted I thought game 1 would not be good for the entire team. But after witnessing IT's performance, I thought "that's it, game 2 will be a blow out by 20 points", "no way his teammates will give up on IT like that", "they'll put up a fight for him".
None of that happen. Game 2 was worse than game 1.
I believe that's the reason why most of us are mad.
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I think there has been an under-appreciation of everything we have done in the past 4 years, just because the last 4 days didn't go the way we hoped. That shows the lack of character from the loudest CB fanbase and not the lack of professionalism by the club employees.
(Except Smart, who was rightfully fined.)
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The thing is, IT played through his injury, and in Game 1 played really well. He 100% gets a pass here, no matter what happens, but I think it's tough to hang the losses on his mental state.
If the rest of the team is showing worse emotional trauma than IT, is it fair to question their ability to focus and overcome adversity? You would think the team would play harder as a means of honoring IT and his sister, wouldn't you?
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You're right when you say mental injuries may be underestimed.
But in this particular case, why is IT the one who responded better ? I think it's just because that's who he is, he is a fighter. Everyone is different.
Where I'm angry at the Celtics is that they are pro, it doesn't mean they have no feeling, but the players who are not IT didn't lose a relative of their own. Yes they saw IT in pain, and yes it hurts, but they should have been able to respond better. I was expecting everyone to play well except Thomas and the opposite happened.
Must add that after two games, C's might actually have been playing at their full level and are just too weak/small too rebound, in which case well my argument is wrong but it's even worse for the next days...
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The thing is, IT played through his injury, and in Game 1 played really well. He 100% gets a pass here, no matter what happens, but I think it's tough to hang the losses on his mental state.
If the rest of the team is showing worse emotional trauma than IT, is it fair to question their ability to focus and overcome adversity? You would think the team would play harder as a means of honoring IT and his sister, wouldn't you?
I think it is a little more complicated than this. Let's throw out a hypothetical example. Bradley is very close to Thomas. Perhaps he even met the sister st one point. Perhaps Bradley has had a a reaction where stress really throws off his ability to sleep. It is just his body's reaction to it (this is a problem I have had myself with trauma). I don't think we would say Bradley is less of a professional or weak for having this reaction even if it impacts his play. I just think it is really complicated and overall just sucks. I obviously hate to see if the season goes out with a whimper, but it is also hard for me to have the same frustration I have had other years.
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Bradley probably is reminded of losing his mother folks by this incident. The rest of the team should be picking up the slack and helping their grieving team mates.
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My personal experience, when I lost a buddy while working on his personal project, a feature film, was that I, along with others, grinded like crazy for 6 months after his leave and I wasn't effective. The film was never finished. It wasn't the question of time and work put into it, It was the question of doing the right things and having appropriate leadership. Isaiah is our leader, I think there is no question about it, and he is struggling IMO. Sure some will say he scored 30+ in the 1st game, OK, maybe he would go for 48. The biggest dropoffs in his game, understandably, are the concentration related things, free throws (22% less), and ball security (he doubled his TO%). And to use my personal analogy, it all comes down from the top.
Before every series, we ask ourselves; "Who is the best player in the series. Who their best player?" We don't say it for nothing, we say it cause it is meaningful.
Isaiah's tragedy affected the teams play negatively and guys are trying, but they aren't good at it right now. This is not some cheesy sports movie when guys buckle down and save the club, this is real life, and it doesn't work based just on your willpower. Humans are emotional beings. Bulls got lucky and hit some 3-pointers and long mid-rangers they normally don't. We are not the classic number 1 seed, we played below our expected level for the reasons mentioned above and that's why we are where we are right now.
Game 3, let's hope we get it.
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Before game two, I forget who maybe Scal was talking about how the locker room had still been very quiet between game one and two. With IT in the locker room grieving the other players can't prepare their normal way because of your brother is grieving you are gonna feel like pretty bad if you are 10 feet away just messing around with your buddies. With how close you are with teammates when one guy is that emotionally low it is incredibly naive to think the other guys aren't affected, IT is able to use the game as his escape, hyper focus and avoid real life for a bit but for everyone else their pregame preparation is off which makes a huge difference in the playoffs.
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Between game 1 and game 2, someone (Horford, Bradley, Stevens, Ainge, ANYBODY!!!!) has to gather everyone (let IT aside) and speak your mind and what needs to be done for IT's sake.
Someone has to remind what IT has done for them the entire season and that now IT needs YOU OFF and ON the court.
Remember how IT gave it all vs Hawks last playoff and how drained he felt at the end during the interview. Remember how he worked hard the summer and become a WAY better player. Remember how he makes everybody else better and shoot well during the season.
Remember all this and tell me how is it possible to go down that way in game 2.
NOBODY ????
Like I said, if they put up a big fight and they still lose, I'm ok with that.
What I'm not ok is poor fight.
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IT has every reason not to play right now.
His teammates and coaches do not.
When one of your coworkers has a personal tragedy, you'd be a real jerk to expect him or her to still work the same. You'd be a monster to give them crap about taking time off.
But you would still need to do your job.
In fact, you would be expected to step up to pick up the slack for your bereaved friend and coworker, thereby allowing your employer and your coworker to breathe easier during a difficult time.
It's not an excuse for the whole team. These guys are professionals.
That's not to say it's an easy thing to ask of them. It is not. But winning in the playoffs, as I said in another thread, always means overcoming some kind of adversity, whether mental or physical, on court or off court.
The Celts need to figure out how to respond to adversity, or they will be run off the court in an embarrassing loss. If that happens, the makeup of the team needs to change.
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The thing is, IT played through his injury, and in Game 1 played really well. He 100% gets a pass here, no matter what happens, but I think it's tough to hang the losses on his mental state.
If the rest of the team is showing worse emotional trauma than IT, is it fair to question their ability to focus and overcome adversity? You would think the team would play harder as a means of honoring IT and his sister, wouldn't you?
I think it is a little more complicated than this. Let's throw out a hypothetical example. Bradley is very close to Thomas. Perhaps he even met the sister st one point. Perhaps Bradley has had a a reaction where stress really throws off his ability to sleep. It is just his body's reaction to it (this is a problem I have had myself with trauma). I don't think we would say Bradley is less of a professional or weak for having this reaction even if it impacts his play. I just think it is really complicated and overall just sucks. I obviously hate to see if the season goes out with a whimper, but it is also hard for me to have the same frustration I have had other years.
If he can't sleep because of stress, he is not less professional or weak indeed, but he may not be made for playoff
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Do I get excused from being an effective attorney because one of my co-workers is hurting? If I couldn't perform, I think many people would rightfully question whether I was too emotional to handle a high-pressure job.
IT has an excuse. Nobody else does. Part of their job description is blocking out emotions, at least to the extent reasonable. If you empathize with your teammate, follow his example and perform.
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IT has every reason not to play right now.
His teammates and coaches do not.
When one of your coworkers has a personal tragedy, you'd be a real jerk to expect him or her to still work the same. You'd be a monster to give them crap about taking time off.
But you would still need to do your job.
In fact, you would be expected to step up to pick up the slack for your bereaved friend and coworker, thereby allowing your employer and your coworker to breathe easier during a difficult time.
It's not an excuse for the whole team. These guys are professionals.
That's not to say it's an easy thing to ask of them. It is not. But winning in the playoffs, as I said in another thread, always means overcoming some kind of adversity, whether mental or physical, on court or off court.
The Celts need to figure out how to respond to adversity, or they will be run off the court in an embarrassing loss. If that happens, the makeup of the team needs to change.
Excatly my position. TP.
Also, I disapointed by Horford not stepping up as a leader. I really love him, but he disapointed me on this one.
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Just adding to this. About 10 years ago I had a really bad tragedy in my life that was on par with what IT has gone through. It not only really screwed me up but everyone around me that didn't know how to act respond. Having gone through that experience I honestly think there is a very reasonable chance that this is playing A major role in the Celtics not being ready to play Celtics basketball. I know a lot of people just want a pound of flesh here and to say certain players are awful but it, and life, are a lot more complicated than that. It kind of makes it hard to read the forum right now although I do understand other's viewpoints on it.
Before game two, I forget who maybe Scal was talking about how the locker room had still been very quiet between game one and two. With IT in the locker room grieving the other players can't prepare their normal way because of your brother is grieving you are gonna feel like pretty bad if you are 10 feet away just messing around with your buddies. With how close you are with teammates when one guy is that emotionally low it is incredibly naive to think the other guys aren't affected, IT is able to use the game as his escape, hyper focus and avoid real life for a bit but for everyone else their pregame preparation is off which makes a huge difference in the playoffs.
Going off this, I can recall a friend in college telling me about a terrible thing that happened to her in her past and when I said I was sorry that happened to you, she responded that she had basically gotten over it and now felt bad talking about it because of how uncomfortable it seemed to make other people feel because there's just no good way to respond to real trauma/tragedy.
I think this is what we're seeing. The team isn't preparing the way they should be because they are all thinking about Isaiah and what he's going through and wrestling with what the right way is to handle the situation. Isaiah is going through something real but we can't discount how that affects the teammates around him who care about him and want to help. But then there really isn't any way to make this better so what do you do?
The irony is, if the teammates didn't care about Thomas, they would be able to just go about their business and probably play better.
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Just adding to this. About 10 years ago I had a really bad tragedy in my life that was on par with what IT has gone through. It not only really screwed me up but everyone around me that didn't know how to act respond. Having gone through that experience I honestly think there is a very reasonable chance that this is playing A major role in the Celtics not being ready to play Celtics basketball. I know a lot of people just want a pound of flesh here and to say certain players are awful but it, and life, are a lot more complicated than that. It kind of makes it hard to read the forum right now although I do understand other's viewpoints on it.
Before game two, I forget who maybe Scal was talking about how the locker room had still been very quiet between game one and two. With IT in the locker room grieving the other players can't prepare their normal way because of your brother is grieving you are gonna feel like pretty bad if you are 10 feet away just messing around with your buddies. With how close you are with teammates when one guy is that emotionally low it is incredibly naive to think the other guys aren't affected, IT is able to use the game as his escape, hyper focus and avoid real life for a bit but for everyone else their pregame preparation is off which makes a huge difference in the playoffs.
Going off this, I can recall a friend in college telling me about a terrible thing that happened to her in her past and when I said I was sorry that happened to you, she responded that she had basically gotten over it and now felt bad talking about it because of how uncomfortable it seemed to make other people feel because there's just no good way to respond to real trauma/tragedy.
I think this is what we're seeing. The team isn't preparing the way they should be because they are all thinking about Isaiah and what he's going through and wrestling with what the right way is to handle the situation. Isaiah is going through something real but we can't discount how that affects the teammates around him who care about him and want to help. But then there really isn't any way to make this better so what do you do?
The irony is, if the teammates didn't care about Thomas, they would be able to just go about their business and probably play better.
You actually get it. Those who think they should just suck it up should ask themselves whether they would say the same if the teamwas afflicted with real physical trauma that disabled all members including coaches.
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Do I get excused from being an effective attorney because one of my co-workers is hurting? If I couldn't perform, I think many people would rightfully question whether I was too emotional to handle a high-pressure job.
IT has an excuse. Nobody else does. Part of their job description is blocking out emotions, at least to the extent reasonable. If you empathize with your teammate, follow his example and perform.
Indeed.
I think this whole discussion is being offered up as an alibi for the inadequacies of this group on the floor.
Thomas gets a pass. The emotional health nonsense is an excuse, rather than an explanation, for bad basketball.
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You call it nonsense because you choose to deny the mental aspect of life. I remember all star players that got thrown off a whole playoff series because of girlfriend issues, that is emotional trauma. The best player in game got thrown off because of rumors his team mate dated his mother, that is emotional trauma, but you think this is nonsense?
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Just adding to this. About 10 years ago I had a really bad tragedy in my life that was on par with what IT has gone through. It not only really screwed me up but everyone around me that didn't know how to act respond. Having gone through that experience I honestly think there is a very reasonable chance that this is playing A major role in the Celtics not being ready to play Celtics basketball. I know a lot of people just want a pound of flesh here and to say certain players are awful but it, and life, are a lot more complicated than that. It kind of makes it hard to read the forum right now although I do understand other's viewpoints on it.
Before game two, I forget who maybe Scal was talking about how the locker room had still been very quiet between game one and two. With IT in the locker room grieving the other players can't prepare their normal way because of your brother is grieving you are gonna feel like pretty bad if you are 10 feet away just messing around with your buddies. With how close you are with teammates when one guy is that emotionally low it is incredibly naive to think the other guys aren't affected, IT is able to use the game as his escape, hyper focus and avoid real life for a bit but for everyone else their pregame preparation is off which makes a huge difference in the playoffs.
Going off this, I can recall a friend in college telling me about a terrible thing that happened to her in her past and when I said I was sorry that happened to you, she responded that she had basically gotten over it and now felt bad talking about it because of how uncomfortable it seemed to make other people feel because there's just no good way to respond to real trauma/tragedy.
I think this is what we're seeing. The team isn't preparing the way they should be because they are all thinking about Isaiah and what he's going through and wrestling with what the right way is to handle the situation. Isaiah is going through something real but we can't discount how that affects the teammates around him who care about him and want to help. But then there really isn't any way to make this better so what do you do?
The irony is, if the teammates didn't care about Thomas, they would be able to just go about their business and probably play better.
You actually get it. Those who think they should just suck it up should ask themselves whether they would say the same if the teamwas afflicted with real physical trauma that disabled all members including coaches.
If NBA players are so emotionally fragile that their empathy for a teammate is akin to a disabling physical injury, they should find new occupations, or at least jobs on teams that won't be playing meaningful games.
There are plenty of jobs where empaths are highly valued and successful. A key skill of being an NBA basketball player, however, is to perform under emotional pressure.
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Just adding to this. About 10 years ago I had a really bad tragedy in my life that was on par with what IT has gone through. It not only really screwed me up but everyone around me that didn't know how to act respond. Having gone through that experience I honestly think there is a very reasonable chance that this is playing A major role in the Celtics not being ready to play Celtics basketball. I know a lot of people just want a pound of flesh here and to say certain players are awful but it, and life, are a lot more complicated than that. It kind of makes it hard to read the forum right now although I do understand other's viewpoints on it.
Before game two, I forget who maybe Scal was talking about how the locker room had still been very quiet between game one and two. With IT in the locker room grieving the other players can't prepare their normal way because of your brother is grieving you are gonna feel like pretty bad if you are 10 feet away just messing around with your buddies. With how close you are with teammates when one guy is that emotionally low it is incredibly naive to think the other guys aren't affected, IT is able to use the game as his escape, hyper focus and avoid real life for a bit but for everyone else their pregame preparation is off which makes a huge difference in the playoffs.
Going off this, I can recall a friend in college telling me about a terrible thing that happened to her in her past and when I said I was sorry that happened to you, she responded that she had basically gotten over it and now felt bad talking about it because of how uncomfortable it seemed to make other people feel because there's just no good way to respond to real trauma/tragedy.
I think this is what we're seeing. The team isn't preparing the way they should be because they are all thinking about Isaiah and what he's going through and wrestling with what the right way is to handle the situation. Isaiah is going through something real but we can't discount how that affects the teammates around him who care about him and want to help. But then there really isn't any way to make this better so what do you do?
The irony is, if the teammates didn't care about Thomas, they would be able to just go about their business and probably play better.
You actually get it. Those who think they should just suck it up should ask themselves whether they would say the same if the teamwas afflicted with real physical trauma that disabled all members including coaches.
If NBA players are so emotionally fragile that their empathy for a teammate is akin to a disabling physical injury, they should find new occupations, or at least jobs on teams that won't be playing meaningful games.
There are plenty of jobs where empaths are highly valued and successful. A key skill of being an NBA basketball player, however, is to perform under emotional pressure.
Exactly. TP.
Trying to alibi away poor performance by this club on Thomas' tragedy is a blatant example of a straw man, an attempt to deny the reality that we are a reliable second scorer and a rebounder/rim protecter away from actually being good, and immune to being exposed as we have been by the Bulls.
Were there any truth to this silliness, which there isn't a shred, all the exercise would prove is who should be eliminated - immediately - from this roster as too weak to aid in building a champion.
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You call it nonsense because you choose to deny the mental aspect of life. I remember all star players that got thrown off a whole playoff series because of girlfriend issues, that is emotional trauma. The best player in game got thrown off because of rumors his team mate dated his mother, that is emotional trauma, but you think this is nonsense?
I don't think anyone would question it if IT didn't feel fit enough to play. I actually think IT could still play better, which just goes to show how good he is. But his teammates have to step up. Not IT. His teammates.
To use your example, I can't imagine a team that would be playing with lackluster effort because their teammate broke up with his girlfriend.
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There's only FOUR reasons why we're down 2-0:
1) We've been horribly outplayed.
2) We've been horribly outplayed.
3) We've been horribly outplayed.
4) We've been horribly outplayed.
End of story.
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This attitude pervades our entire system, how can you even address an issue when society does not believe there is one. Since there is no issue, everyone thinks they are experts. Has there even been an attempt to have a mental health professional intervene with the team, or is the therapy limited to 'suck it up' posts on the internet?
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There's only FOUR reasons why we're down 2-0:
1) We've been horribly outplayed.
2) We've been horribly outplayed.
3) We've been horribly outplayed.
4) We've been horribly outplayed.
End of story.
Why?
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This attitude pervades our entire system, how can you even address an issue when society does not believe there is one. Since there is no issue, everyone thinks they are experts. Has there even been an attempt to have a mental health professional intervene with the team, or is the therapy limited to 'suck it up' posts on the internet?
Danny has tried to eliminate mentally weak individuals through his use of brain typing. My guess is that he doesn't want players who are debilitated by emotional moments.
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Trying to alibi away poor performance by this club on Thomas' tragedy is a blatant example of a straw man, an attempt to deny the reality that we are a reliable second scorer and a rebounder/rim protecter away from actually being good, and immune to being exposed as we have been by the Bulls.
Were there any truth to this silliness, which there isn't a shred, all the exercise would prove is who should be eliminated - immediately - from this roster as too weak to aid in building a champion.
1. That's not what a straw man is.
2. I don't think anyone is trying to excuse the Celtics' performance over these first two games, but looking for reasons for why they've played this poorly. It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
I wouldn't want a surgeon doing an unusually difficult surgery if he spent the last few days with one of his closest friends grieving their loss and not focused on exactly what he is doing.
I wouldn't want you representing me in court in the biggest trial of your entire life if your best friends sister just died and you spent the last three days trying to make him feel better, and didn't have your normal amount of time to prepare for the trial.
Normal day to day sure people can be expected to juggle this but when you are about to have the biggest moments of your careers I bet you would feel unprepared if you spent the final few days leading up to it grieving with a close friend.
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
AND not all lawyers handle this well as the level of substance abuse in the profession suggests.
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I think there has been an under-appreciation of everything we have done in the past 4 years, just because the last 4 days didn't go the way we hoped. That shows the lack of character from the loudest CB fanbase and not the lack of professionalism by the club employees.
(Except Smart, who was rightfully fined.)
TP.
Most fanbases would be happy to be in our position, a lot of teams can't even make the playoffs after spending all their picks on rentals (see the Nets).
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
AND not all lawyers handle this well as the level of substance abuse in the profession suggests.
Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
It's not mental fragility, it's being a human being. What you're describing is a team of sociopaths.
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
Having emotions isn't a problem.
Not being able to control emotions is.
Everyone not named IT has no excuse to underperform. Dion Waiters and Dwayne Wade both had relatives murdered last year. Did their teams collapse around them out of empathy?
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
Having emotions isn't a problem.
Not being able to control emotions is.
Everyone not named IT has no excuse to underperform. Dion Waiters and Dwayne Wade both had relatives murdered last year. Did their teams collapse around them out of empathy?
Who on this Celtics team hasn't controlled their emotions? Because the only guy I would level that criticism at is Marcus (flipping off the fan), who has also been one of the team's better players these two games. So I don't know who you're talking about.
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
It's not mental fragility, it's being a human being. What you're describing is a team of sociopaths.
Lol. Having control of one's emotions now makes somebody a sociopath?
We really are becoming a society of special snowflakes, where any adversity is seen as something to protest and withdraw from, rather than to overcome.
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
Having emotions isn't a problem.
Not being able to control emotions is.
Everyone not named IT has no excuse to underperform. Dion Waiters and Dwayne Wade both had relatives murdered last year. Did their teams collapse around them out of empathy?
Who on this Celtics team hasn't controlled their emotions? Because the only guy I would level that criticism at is Marcus (flipping off the fan), who has also been one of the team's better players these two games. So I don't know who you're talking about.
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
If that's true (I don't think it is), then the team is extraordinarily mentally fragile.
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
It's not mental fragility, it's being a human being. What you're describing is a team of sociopaths.
Lol. Having control of one's emotions now makes somebody a sociopath?
We really are becoming a society of special snowflakes, where any adversity is seen as something to protest and withdraw from, rather than to overcome.
Again, who on the Celtics team would you say hasn't had control of their emotions in the last two games?
Also, let it be known that you don't seem to be able to have this conversation without ad hominem attacks. Classy.
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
Having emotions isn't a problem.
Not being able to control emotions is.
Everyone not named IT has no excuse to underperform. Dion Waiters and Dwayne Wade both had relatives murdered last year. Did their teams collapse around them out of empathy?
Who on this Celtics team hasn't controlled their emotions? Because the only guy I would level that criticism at is Marcus (flipping off the fan), who has also been one of the team's better players these two games. So I don't know who you're talking about.
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
If that's true (I don't think it is), then the team is extraordinarily mentally fragile.
No, that's not what the OP said at all. Trying reading things before you respond to them.
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Because basketball is a physical sport so ya gotta get physical with each other, and second, it's a professional league and no excuses can be made for losing games.
Sorry. Wish emotional health could be reevaluated but it won't happen.
Actually, the game is just as mental as it is physical, see what I mean about the lack of appreciation of emotional health issues? This is society as a whole, not limited to sports at all. No one has really bothered to ask how these players are emotionally? If it had been physical injuries we would have update on their health, MRI, X-Rays etc. But because this is mental, it somehow does not get the same attention. Society as a whole has to change attitudes towards mental health issues.
do you really want updates on the mental and emotional health of professional athletes?
I dont and I imagine Isaiah Thomas doesnt want that either.
Brad has already made it clear that Isaiah could have chosen to miss those games if he was not ready to go.
Isn't that part of what Twitter is for?
yeah, but I dont want the league to mandate emotional and mental health updates. Seems an invasion of privacy to me.
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
Having emotions isn't a problem.
Not being able to control emotions is.
Everyone not named IT has no excuse to underperform. Dion Waiters and Dwayne Wade both had relatives murdered last year. Did their teams collapse around them out of empathy?
Who on this Celtics team hasn't controlled their emotions? Because the only guy I would level that criticism at is Marcus (flipping off the fan), who has also been one of the team's better players these two games. So I don't know who you're talking about.
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
If that's true (I don't think it is), then the team is extraordinarily mentally fragile.
No, that's not what the OP said at all. Trying reading things before you respond to them.
It isn't? It certainly seems to be.
Assume that a day before the first game of the playoffs a team suffers some kind of catastrophe that causes a devastating physical injury to its best players, and physical injury to all the other members of the team including the coach.
In this situation, there is no question they all will seek and get medical treatment, some will even be held out of the game because of their disability. Heck, the game could even be called off if enough of them were found physical unfit to play.
Why isnt the same standard applied to emotional injury? Why is that team expected to suck it up if the injury is mental? If the injury is emotional do they even get to seek medical intervention?
Of all body parts and systems, the human mind is probably still the most difficult to understand. Is it a mere coincidence that an emotionally traumatized team responds uncharacteristically after the trauma? If it had been physical injuries would their reduced productivity be more understandable, more accepted maybe?
Think about it?
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
I wouldn't want a surgeon doing an unusually difficult surgery if he spent the last few days with one of his closest friends grieving their loss and not focused on exactly what he is doing.
I wouldn't want you representing me in court in the biggest trial of your entire life if your best friends sister just died and you spent the last three days trying to make him feel better, and didn't have your normal amount of time to prepare for the trial.
Normal day to day sure people can be expected to juggle this but when you are about to have the biggest moments of your careers I bet you would feel unprepared if you spent the final few days leading up to it grieving with a close friend.
The thing is, if Roy were your attorney that trial date would have been set months ago and he might be the only attorney on your case. If that were the situation, he'd have to do his best to represent you even if he wasn't feeling at his best.
As in sports, you don't get to beg the court for a new trial date because your best friend is grieving.
Roy would be expected to do the best job he could representing you even so. That's just part of being an attorney. You have a duty to represent your clients.
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
It's not mental fragility, it's being a human being. What you're describing is a team of sociopaths.
Lol. Having control of one's emotions now makes somebody a sociopath?
We really are becoming a society of special snowflakes, where any adversity is seen as something to protest and withdraw from, rather than to overcome.
I think what you are describing is empathy and emotion being disregarded and shown as unacceptable, the way I see it, just for your (and other fans) personal joy of Celtic playoff win. That seems morally deficient and unacceptable to me within this context. Emotion is one of the core fabrics of us and our beloved players, and if we love them, as we often proudly say, we must accept it.
Fanaticism is a dangerous thing, we can see that everyday.
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
AND not all lawyers handle this well as the level of substance abuse in the profession suggests.
Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
Actually the emotional stress inherent in firefighting gives firefighters very liberal presumptions in obtaining stress related disability, and proper mental health counseling is an integral part of that profession. I have seen an apparently stoic man crumble under the stress of his job which was EMT type work.
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
Having emotions isn't a problem.
Not being able to control emotions is.
Everyone not named IT has no excuse to underperform. Dion Waiters and Dwayne Wade both had relatives murdered last year. Did their teams collapse around them out of empathy?
Who on this Celtics team hasn't controlled their emotions? Because the only guy I would level that criticism at is Marcus (flipping off the fan), who has also been one of the team's better players these two games. So I don't know who you're talking about.
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
If that's true (I don't think it is), then the team is extraordinarily mentally fragile.
No need to misrepresent the OP. The point is emotional trauma is often overlooked and avoided. You prove the point well.
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
I wouldn't want a surgeon doing an unusually difficult surgery if he spent the last few days with one of his closest friends grieving their loss and not focused on exactly what he is doing.
I wouldn't want you representing me in court in the biggest trial of your entire life if your best friends sister just died and you spent the last three days trying to make him feel better, and didn't have your normal amount of time to prepare for the trial.
Normal day to day sure people can be expected to juggle this but when you are about to have the biggest moments of your careers I bet you would feel unprepared if you spent the final few days leading up to it grieving with a close friend.
The thing is, if Roy were your attorney that trial date would have been set months ago and he might be the only attorney on your case. If that were the situation, he'd have to do his best to represent you even if he wasn't feeling at his best.
As in sports, you don't get to beg the court for a new trial date because your best friend is grieving.
Roy would be expected to do the best job he could representing you even so. That's just part of being an attorney. You have a duty to represent your clients.
Not true attys get cases continued all the time.
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Assume that a day before the first game of the playoffs a team suffers some kind of catastrophe that causes a devastating physical injury to its best players, and physical injury to all the other members of the team including the coach.
In this situation, there is no question they all will seek and get medical treatment, some will even be held out of the game because of their disability. Heck, the game could even be called off if enough of them were found physical unfit to play.
Why isnt the same standard applied to emotional injury? Why is that team expected to suck it up if the injury is mental? If the injury is emotional do they even get to seek medical intervention?
Of all body parts and systems, the human mind is probably still the most difficult to understand. Is it a mere coincidence that an emotionally traumatized team responds uncharacteristically after the trauma? If it had been physical injuries would their reduced productivity be more understandable, more accepted maybe?
Think about it?
This whole premise lacks really any amount of scientific credibility, but even if it did, then it is on the Coach to step in and say "you aren't playing." Brad left it up to IT. He played. They lost.
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It's not mental fragility it's about how much outside life affects the game and how little we take that into account.
Which is mental fragility.
There's more to basketball than physical talent. Pros need to deal with mental pressure.
Would you want a surgeon operating on you who couldn't separate his job from the outside world of his friends / co-workers? There's a reason that not every student who can adequately dissect a cadaver becomes a surgeon.
Certain jobs require people to compartmentalize their emotions to a reasonable extent.
I wouldn't want a surgeon doing an unusually difficult surgery if he spent the last few days with one of his closest friends grieving their loss and not focused on exactly what he is doing.
I wouldn't want you representing me in court in the biggest trial of your entire life if your best friends sister just died and you spent the last three days trying to make him feel better, and didn't have your normal amount of time to prepare for the trial.
Normal day to day sure people can be expected to juggle this but when you are about to have the biggest moments of your careers I bet you would feel unprepared if you spent the final few days leading up to it grieving with a close friend.
The thing is, if Roy were your attorney that trial date would have been set months ago and he might be the only attorney on your case. If that were the situation, he'd have to do his best to represent you even if he wasn't feeling at his best.
As in sports, you don't get to beg the court for a new trial date because your best friend is grieving.
Roy would be expected to do the best job he could representing you even so. That's just part of being an attorney. You have a duty to represent your clients.
Not true attys get cases continued all the time.
True, but not once a trial date is set. Some jurisdictions, like NJ, require extraordinary circumstances to continue a trial date. Feeling upset because a co-workers sister passed away isn't going to pass muster.
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
Having emotions isn't a problem.
Not being able to control emotions is.
Everyone not named IT has no excuse to underperform. Dion Waiters and Dwayne Wade both had relatives murdered last year. Did their teams collapse around them out of empathy?
Who on this Celtics team hasn't controlled their emotions? Because the only guy I would level that criticism at is Marcus (flipping off the fan), who has also been one of the team's better players these two games. So I don't know who you're talking about.
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
If that's true (I don't think it is), then the team is extraordinarily mentally fragile.
No need to misrepresent the OP. The point is emotional trauma is often overlooked and avoided. You prove the point well.
I quoted your post. It's exactly what you said.
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
Having emotions isn't a problem.
Not being able to control emotions is.
Everyone not named IT has no excuse to underperform. Dion Waiters and Dwayne Wade both had relatives murdered last year. Did their teams collapse around them out of empathy?
Who on this Celtics team hasn't controlled their emotions? Because the only guy I would level that criticism at is Marcus (flipping off the fan), who has also been one of the team's better players these two games. So I don't know who you're talking about.
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
If that's true (I don't think it is), then the team is extraordinarily mentally fragile.
No need to misrepresent the OP. The point is emotional trauma is often overlooked and avoided. You prove the point well.
I quoted your post. It's exactly what you said.
Roy, I read what he wrote and you are clearly misrepresenting his words. Or you just don't understand them. Either way, you've proven his point.
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
Having emotions isn't a problem.
Not being able to control emotions is.
Everyone not named IT has no excuse to underperform. Dion Waiters and Dwayne Wade both had relatives murdered last year. Did their teams collapse around them out of empathy?
Who on this Celtics team hasn't controlled their emotions? Because the only guy I would level that criticism at is Marcus (flipping off the fan), who has also been one of the team's better players these two games. So I don't know who you're talking about.
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
If that's true (I don't think it is), then the team is extraordinarily mentally fragile.
No need to misrepresent the OP. The point is emotional trauma is often overlooked and avoided. You prove the point well.
I quoted your post. It's exactly what you said.
Roy, I read what he wrote and you are clearly misrepresenting his words. Or you just don't understand them. Either way, you've proven his point.
His point that, if this team is extraordinarily weak-minded minded, fans shouldn't criticize that?
But seriously, what part of this is a misrepresentation?
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
Having emotions isn't a problem.
Not being able to control emotions is.
Everyone not named IT has no excuse to underperform. Dion Waiters and Dwayne Wade both had relatives murdered last year. Did their teams collapse around them out of empathy?
Who on this Celtics team hasn't controlled their emotions? Because the only guy I would level that criticism at is Marcus (flipping off the fan), who has also been one of the team's better players these two games. So I don't know who you're talking about.
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
If that's true (I don't think it is), then the team is extraordinarily mentally fragile.
No need to misrepresent the OP. The point is emotional trauma is often overlooked and avoided. You prove the point well.
I quoted your post. It's exactly what you said.
Roy, I read what he wrote and you are clearly misrepresenting his words. Or you just don't understand them. Either way, you've proven his point.
His point that, if this team is extraordinarily weak-minded minded, fans shouldn't criticize that?
But seriously, what part of this is a misrepresentation?
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
I agree with Roy.
If this team has players mentally weak enough that this cripples them (aside from IT) then we should move on from them. To look at it like Ogaju does, I would say they are major injury risks.
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Sure. If somebody can't adequately control their emotions, they'll probably be unsuccessful at their job or flame out in some other way.
Soldiers, police, firefighters, surgeons, EMTs, etc. all deal with emotional trauma every day, and they do their jobs well. Yet we somehow excuse basketball players from maintaining focus and energy for 48 minutes per night?
That's warped to me. If this theory is true (it isn't) we've got to have the softest, most mentally fragile team in the history of Boston sports.
This whole post is completely divorced from reality.
Everyone on the Celtics has controlled their emotions just fine (except for Smart, flipping off the fan). It's not about controlling emotions, it's about how real life off the court affects players and how little time we spent considering that.
In most other professions, IT would not have come in for work. If he were a surgeon or a lawyer or a cop he'd be on leave. And really, comparing these guys who play a game for a living to firefighters and EMTs is ridiculous.
Looking over this thread and seeing just how quickly "having emotions" became a moral failing for some seems to have proven the OP's point.
Having emotions isn't a problem.
Not being able to control emotions is.
Everyone not named IT has no excuse to underperform. Dion Waiters and Dwayne Wade both had relatives murdered last year. Did their teams collapse around them out of empathy?
Who on this Celtics team hasn't controlled their emotions? Because the only guy I would level that criticism at is Marcus (flipping off the fan), who has also been one of the team's better players these two games. So I don't know who you're talking about.
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
If that's true (I don't think it is), then the team is extraordinarily mentally fragile.
No need to misrepresent the OP. The point is emotional trauma is often overlooked and avoided. You prove the point well.
I quoted your post. It's exactly what you said.
Roy, I read what he wrote and you are clearly misrepresenting his words. Or you just don't understand them. Either way, you've proven his point.
His point that, if this team is extraordinarily weak-minded minded, fans shouldn't criticize that?
But seriously, what part of this is a misrepresentation?
According to the OP, the entire team is underperforming due to undergoing emotional trauma, akin to every player suffering a serious physical injury.
In a world where we accept that stress is a constant factor, the hope is that we manage the stress, or even use it as motivation to over-achieve -- this is the premise behind "clutch" performances. I think the OPs point is that a team that experiences a highly stressful event might experience (in some respect) a traumatic response to the event -- causing unexpected emotional phenomena and quite possibly subconscious impact. I do believe that a basketball team does consist of "co-workers" (referring back to Roy's comment on page of this thread), but really atypical co-workers, possibly could be considered something in between a "family" and typical co-workers in response to a teammate's tragedy.
I understand that if there is a counter-productive (counter to basketball success) emotional response by the team -- perhaps impacting focus and sustained energy, that this is not what you would hope for from a professional team. However, these are human beings and it certainly is plausible that the poor performances in games 1 and 2 are attributable in part to the after-effects of the tragedy. You can say this is weak-mindedness I guess, but it's hard to know how anyone would react in similar circumstances as these circumstances are difficult to replicate.
In an event that did not occur in-season (or playoffs) but I think absolutely had residual traumatic impact on a bona-fide championship team -- ask Larry Bird and Kevin McHale if they think that Len Bias' death had an lingering emotional impact on the team's performance in 1987. The team did make it to the Finals but I think there was a pall over the season (and perhaps beyond) that had an emotional impact. The Big 3 never won again.
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In an event that did not occur in-season (or playoffs) but I think absolutely had residual traumatic impact on a bona-fide championship team -- ask Larry Bird and Kevin McHale if they think that Len Bias' death had an lingering emotional impact on the team's performance in 1987. The team did make it to the Finals but I think there was a pall over the season (and perhaps beyond) that had an emotional impact. The Big 3 never won again.
I've always looked at the loss in '87 being due to injuries (physical ones, not mental). Walton became ineffective overnight, McHale broke his foot, and Parish and Ainge were banged up. Plus, that was a great Lakers team.
Bias' death was traumatic, but I don't think it had much to do with the Celtics losing in the Finals.
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I don't get how Roy is misrepresenting the OP. Can the OP restate his premise then, in clearer words? From my vantage point, it seems like the OP is saying our players are underperforming, or in his words, "performing uncharacteristically" because of IT's tragedy. That emotional wellness should be just as important as physical wellness.
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hopefully danny doesn't buy into this as a reason or excuse.
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I'm starting to feel crazy ;D
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I don't get how Roy is misrepresenting the OP. Can the OP restate his premise then, in clearer words? From my vantage point, it seems like the OP is saying our players are underperforming, or in his words, "performing uncharacteristically" because of IT's tragedy. That emotional wellness should be just as important as physical wellness.
The OP is clear and this thread proves the point. Society to a large extent does not appreciate emotional trauma. Look how readily Roy acknowledges the effect of physical injuries on the 1987 team yet will not even acknowledge that this team may have been traumatized emotionally. Roy likens this to readiness for a trial despite having a grieving co-worker when in fact this is more akin tothe grieving coworker being an indispensable part of the trial team.
One poster referred to the concept of emotional trauma as nonsense while another says it lacks any scientific basis. These people need to talk to those who make a living practicing psychiatry, psychology, and neuro-psychology.
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In an event that did not occur in-season (or playoffs) but I think absolutely had residual traumatic impact on a bona-fide championship team -- ask Larry Bird and Kevin McHale if they think that Len Bias' death had an lingering emotional impact on the team's performance in 1987. The team did make it to the Finals but I think there was a pall over the season (and perhaps beyond) that had an emotional impact. The Big 3 never won again.
I've always looked at the loss in '87 being due to injuries (physical ones, not mental). Walton became ineffective overnight, McHale broke his foot, and Parish and Ainge were banged up. Plus, that was a great Lakers team.
Bias' death was traumatic, but I don't think it had much to do with the Celtics losing in the Finals.
We'll never know if the 8 fewer wins in 87, or the Finals loss, or even injuries, had any connecion to the Bias death. Just the possibility that tragedy can impact mental and emotional readiness or physical performance is enough to credibly present the notion that ITs loss (occurring the day before the playoffs began) had a human impact on the team that possibly has nothing to do with weakness or fragility.
I'll bet Bias' death (and Reggie's) had an impact on the Celtics organization that took a generation to overcome - an organization that was hardly considered weak or fragile.
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It also strikes me that if the C's win tonight, the emotional lift of "getting through" what they've been dealing with (IT's grief, the losses) could be a real galvanizing force going forward. If they can put together 2 quality performances in Chicago and put a couple of wins on the board I would be very optimistic about what this team could do together going forward.
It starts with tonight.
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I don't get how Roy is misrepresenting the OP. Can the OP restate his premise then, in clearer words? From my vantage point, it seems like the OP is saying our players are underperforming, or in his words, "performing uncharacteristically" because of IT's tragedy. That emotional wellness should be just as important as physical wellness.
The OP is clear and this thread proves the point. Society to a large extent does not appreciate emotional trauma. Look how readily Roy acknowledges the effect of physical injuries on the 1987 team yet will not even acknowledge that this team may have been traumatized emotionally. Roy likens this to readiness for a trial despite having a grieving co-worker when in fact this is more akin tothe grieving coworker being an indispensable part of the trial team.
One poster referred to the concept of emotional trauma as nonsense while another says it lacks any scientific basis. These people need to talk to those who make a living practicing psychiatry, psychology, and neuro-psychology.
My wife is a psychiatric clinician and is a supervisor at a psychiatric hospital. I understand that emotional trauma exists.
What I disagree with is that the empathy of IT's teammates resembles a team-wide series of debilitating injuries. Rather, if the 14 non-IT members of the team are unable to focus and compartmentalize their emotions, they are missing a key skill for an NBA basketball player. It would be a liability, akin to an overly emotional surgeon or firefighter.
But, I don't buy the theory that the team is sucking because they've been emotionally traumatized. Danny makes the occasional bad decision, but he didn't put together a roster of 14 guys prone to emotional injury.
Similarly, I have a hard time connecting the emotional impact of Bias' death with the physical injuries the 1987 Celtics collapsed from. The physical impact of playing less minutes if Bias was in the rotation? Sure. But Bill Walton's body breaking down because he was emotional that a draft pick died? I don't think that even science fiction can make that connection.
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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.
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Mental Toughness is a thing of the past to many people and generations.
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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.
So is Rondo's injury also akin to the rest of the roster receiving a serious injury? Are the Bulls now excused if they tuck their tales and don't show up?
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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.
Yeah, they're not saying that because it doesn't really compare. Think of it in terms of Maslow's pyramid, where being able to physically hold the ball is the broadest of foundations.
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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.
So is Rondo's injury also akin to the rest of the roster receiving a serious injury? Are the Bulls now excused if they tuck their tales and don't show up?
I don't know how the Bulls or their coaches have taken to Rondo's injury. Was the coach over at his house to console him? Did Holmberg say it is up to Rondo whether he plays or not? You tell me. What exactly is the Bulls emotional reaction to Rondo's injury?
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I don't get how Roy is misrepresenting the OP. Can the OP restate his premise then, in clearer words? From my vantage point, it seems like the OP is saying our players are underperforming, or in his words, "performing uncharacteristically" because of IT's tragedy. That emotional wellness should be just as important as physical wellness.
The OP is clear and this thread proves the point. Society to a large extent does not appreciate emotional trauma. Look how readily Roy acknowledges the effect of physical injuries on the 1987 team yet will not even acknowledge that this team may have been traumatized emotionally. Roy likens this to readiness for a trial despite having a grieving co-worker when in fact this is more akin tothe grieving coworker being an indispensable part of the trial team.
One poster referred to the concept of emotional trauma as nonsense while another says it lacks any scientific basis. These people need to talk to those who make a living practicing psychiatry, psychology, and neuro-psychology.
My wife is a psychiatric clinician and is a supervisor at a psychiatric hospital. I understand that emotional trauma exists.
What I disagree with is that the empathy of IT's teammates resembles a team-wide series of debilitating injuries. Rather, if the 14 non-IT members of the team are unable to focus and compartmentalize their emotions, they are missing a key skill for an NBA basketball player. It would be a liability, akin to an overly emotional surgeon or firefighter.
But, I don't buy the theory that the team is sucking because they've been emotionally traumatized. Danny makes the occasional bad decision, but he didn't put together a roster of 14 guys prone to emotional injury.
Similarly, I have a hard time connecting the emotional impact of Bias' death with the physical injuries the 1987 Celtics collapsed from. The physical impact of playing less minutes if Bias was in the rotation? Sure. But Bill Walton's body breaking down because he was emotional that a draft pick died? I don't think that even science fiction can make that connection.
This is a surprising misinterpretation of my post. There is plenty of scientific evidence that emotional trauma can have physical manifestations (in fact, often does - you are aware that stress reduction is a part of treatment plans for a host of physical ailments -- stress is a well accepted exacerbator of disease). I never said that injuries WERE caused by emotional trauma for the 87 C's, just that it's a possible factor. It is ignorant to presume that trauma did or didn't play a role since circumstantial evidence is all that is available to support either point of view. Let me be clear though - I don't think Walton's body broke down because of Len Bias' death. I DO, however, think trauma impacts outcomes in strange ways - even for mentally tough people. My guess is your wife would concur.
Re: the surgeon - given an option I'd almost always opt for the surgeon who hadn't lost a loved one, or a co-worker, or who had had a good night's sleep the night before my surgery. I'm not saying most surgeons can't handle stress very well, but I am suggesting that every human being is impacted by stress -- and if a potentially traumatic event occurs, even the most mentally tough can be impacted. Is it possible that a tough team can be impacted by a teammate's tragedy? - yes it is. Does this make them weak? Well, I'm not sure but I would be hesitant to draw a definitive conclusion either way. Time will tell.
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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.
So is Rondo's injury also akin to the rest of the roster receiving a serious injury? Are the Bulls now excused if they tuck their tales and don't show up?
Really? Your sarcasm compares Rondo's thumb to ITs sister. I'll answer your rhetorical plainly - no, Rondo's thumb injury will not traumatize his teammates. If it does then they are indeed mentally weak.
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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.
So is Rondo's injury also akin to the rest of the roster receiving a serious injury? Are the Bulls now excused if they tuck their tales and don't show up?
Really? Your sarcasm compares Rondo's thumb to ITs sister. I'll answer your rhetorical plainly - no, Rondo's thumb injury will not traumatize his teammates. If it does then they are indeed mentally weak.
Because that's the premise being presented, which to me is ridiculous. The discussion is centered around the impact of IT's tragedy yet the previous poster brings up Rondo's thumb as some bizarre means to support his case. What else can Roy do but discredit the evidence presented?
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Study the reaction to Rondo's unfortunate injury. No one is saying it's up to Rondo to play, or even suggest that Rondo can use the game to deal with his injuryŕ. No one is saying it's just a thumb fracture and he should play through it. No one is saying that the disclosure of the diagnosis, treatment, or length of disability is an invasion of privacy. I bet Rondo sought medical treatment and advice for his injury. Fans are immediately talking about how this is break for the Celtics should explore. Compare these reactions to the reactions to the trauma to Boston's team leader.
How can Rondo use the game (an NBA Playoff game, no less!) to deal with his injury? How does he dribble or shoot with a cast on his shooting/dominant hand?
The reason people don't talk about Rondo's thumb the same way people talk about IT's sister is because they're completely different things.
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I don't get how Roy is misrepresenting the OP. Can the OP restate his premise then, in clearer words? From my vantage point, it seems like the OP is saying our players are underperforming, or in his words, "performing uncharacteristically" because of IT's tragedy. That emotional wellness should be just as important as physical wellness.
The OP is clear and this thread proves the point. Society to a large extent does not appreciate emotional trauma. Look how readily Roy acknowledges the effect of physical injuries on the 1987 team yet will not even acknowledge that this team may have been traumatized emotionally. Roy likens this to readiness for a trial despite having a grieving co-worker when in fact this is more akin tothe grieving coworker being an indispensable part of the trial team.
One poster referred to the concept of emotional trauma as nonsense while another says it lacks any scientific basis. These people need to talk to those who make a living practicing psychiatry, psychology, and neuro-psychology.
I figured there were some conclusions being jumped to.
First off, I don't think anyone is questioning the existence of emotional trauma nor its debilitating effects. Which is why on this board, there was an outpouring of support for Thomas and complete understanding if he chose not to play in the playoffs. I think we're clear on that.
What is being questioned is the insinuation that the emotional trauma from this incident is so widespread that the entire team is debilitated or can't show up to play.
From personal experience, last week, the wife of a guy on my team gave birth prematurely. The baby is in the ICU now. He asked me if I wanted him to show up for work (because he knows it's a particularly tough week for us) but I encouraged him to be with his family because life > work. That said, I don't think it's unfair to ask the rest of the team (myself included) to step up in his absence.
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The thing is, IT played through his injury, and in Game 1 played really well. He 100% gets a pass here, no matter what happens, but I think it's tough to hang the losses on his mental state.
If the rest of the team is showing worse emotional trauma than IT, is it fair to question their ability to focus and overcome adversity? You would think the team would play harder as a means of honoring IT and his sister, wouldn't you?
True, but you can see he's not in the right state. Uncharacteristic turnovers and missed freethrows. While it is true, you could also say that the team played tight because of the pressure to perform well for IT. Instead of playing loose, they played tight. Im not saying it is what happened, but I know for a fact these things happen to a person, or team. What MAY have happened is, instead of a confident, loose team, you have this team with some uncertainties and added pressure.
I work as a Pastry Chef, and we all know as professionals you have to do your job regardless. But we are people to, and sometimes in the kitchen, when one of my co-workers have personal problems that we know of, it affects everyone's mood a bit or a lot. Sometimes it subtly affects the workplace without noticing it.