CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: the TRUTH on April 18, 2017, 06:25:38 PM
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Ainge has gotten a lot of heat on here since the loss in Game 1, so I wanted to see who everyone would rather have between Ainge and Stevens.
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I'd rather compare them to other teams. Both above average.
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Personally, while I like what Stevens has done here thus far, he's still unproven in the playoffs. On the other hand, Ainge may have made some mistakes here and there, but he was also a major factor in Banner 17. I'm glad we have both of them, but if forced to choose, Ainge would get my vote.
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Stevens has made lemonade out of the sour lemons Ainge keeps handing him. I can't figure out if it's Ainge not wanting to pull the trigger or Stevens saying "we're good". I wonder can Stevens elevate his coaching with better talent. Sometimes mediocre makes you look good and not everyone can handle when being great and high expectations are bestowed on them.
Stevens came from Butler to the NBA. He didn't come from UK, UNC, Duke. That is quite a jump. It's like a coach at D-III being a great coach and then when he moves to D-I, he can't coach up better players.
I like Stevens but how he hasn't gone bonkers for Ainge to get him better talent is strange to me.
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Not close .
Stevens ...given a train wreck , not allowed to tank , not great drafting ....look at the pos he has had waiting for him ...diva .Rondo , no defense Rondo....not the good ol Rondo. ....what a pain to start off with. 100 different players ....old cast offs, sorry draft picks .
Ainge best moves . Bringing KG to Boston
Steven hiring was his prize move for a legacy.
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Not close .
Steven ....look at the pos he has had .... diva .Rondo , no defense Rondo....not the good Rondo. ....what a pain to start off with.
Ainge best moves . Bringing KG to Boston
Steven hiring was his prize move for a legacy.
lets not act like Brad did a good job with Rondo.
we sucked once Danny got rid of the diva.
Advantage Danny for me, but its close.
Wyc-Danny-Brad is such a blessing.
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Bottom 5 record to 1 seed in two years, and the biggest FA addition over that span was 30 year old Al Horford.
It's Danny Ainge.
He's far from perfect, but the man deserves his due. He put together a team that won a title and made the Finals twice in three years, not to mention five straight years of 50+ win caliber basketball. He dismantled that team when its time was up, and has since put together an almost completely new group of players that won 48 games last year and 53 games this year, with plenty of assets left in the tank to improve the team further.
The Celts under Stevens have consistently given good effort and played a fairly disciplined style of basketball. He has done a pretty good job so far avoiding any major chemistry issues or controversies, and he seems to set his players up to succeed.
All of that said, Stevens needs to coach his team to some more playoff wins before he earns his cred as one of the best coaches in the league. Many teams are well coached and play with consistent effort and discipline. Few ever make it past the 1st round of the playoffs.
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Bottom 5 record to 1 seed in two years, and the biggest FA addition over that span was 30 year old Al Horford.
It's Danny Ainge.
He's far from perfect, but the man deserves his due. He put together a team that won a title and made the Finals twice in three years, not to mention five straight years of 50+ win caliber basketball. He dismantled that team when its time was up, and has since put together an almost completely new group of players that won 48 games last year and 53 games this year, with plenty of assets left in the tank to improve the team further.
The Celts under Stevens have consistently given good effort and played a fairly disciplined style of basketball. He has done a pretty good job so far avoiding any major chemistry issues or controversies, and he seems to set his players up to succeed.
All of that said, Stevens needs to coach his team to some more playoff wins before he earns his cred as one of the best coaches in the league. Many teams are well coached and play with consistent effort and discipline. Few ever make it past the 1st round of the playoffs.
DA also has that small trade were he traded 3 guys near the end of their careers for Brown, possible Fultz/Jackson/Tatum/Ball, and who knows next draft, could be a top 5 pick, at worst 8? Unless the Bball Gods hate us, and KD,Griffin and Hayward all end up there.
Stevens has been good, I didn't expect him to sniff the playoffs till this season, but his learning curve and what he dose with the players DA hands him has been solid.
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Bottom 5 record to 1 seed in two years, and the biggest FA addition over that span was 30 year old Al Horford.
It's Danny Ainge.
He's far from perfect, but the man deserves his due. He put together a team that won a title and made the Finals twice in three years, not to mention five straight years of 50+ win caliber basketball. He dismantled that team when its time was up, and has since put together an almost completely new group of players that won 48 games last year and 53 games this year, with plenty of assets left in the tank to improve the team further.
The Celts under Stevens have consistently given good effort and played a fairly disciplined style of basketball. He has done a pretty good job so far avoiding any major chemistry issues or controversies, and he seems to set his players up to succeed.
All of that said, Stevens needs to coach his team to some more playoff wins before he earns his cred as one of the best coaches in the league. Many teams are well coached and play with consistent effort and discipline. Few ever make it past the 1st round of the playoffs.
I mean, yeah. This. Exactly.
Emphasis on the last bit. The C's have overachieved every season under Brad and he deserves much credit. But he hasn't been on the job all that long and the transitional period in which he arrived has not given us the best look at exactly how effective of a coach he is on the biggest stages. He has more to prove.
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You can't properly evaluate Ainge without considering whether or not he was gifted KG. And since that's not a question that can be refuted (either way), it's not possible to properly evaluate Ainge beyond "Relative to his counterparts, he's a very good GM." I'd say that statement applies equally to Stevens.
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I consider this pretty easy the answer is Danny, a few people have added some good reasons but one other one to think of is the hiring of Brad Stevens, Danny went to a mid major college basketball program and saw a talented coach. That isn't someone that would have been on all NBA GMs radar.
If Brad were to leave I would certainly have faith in Danny to go out and find another great coach, there is nothing Brad can do to get another great GM if we were to lose Danny.
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TP for the thread.
Ainge, and it's not even close.
Stevens is this fair-haired boy and Ainge takes all the heat.
Lots of questions about Brad for me.
Can he win a playoff series?
Maybe Butler-ball can win in the regular season, but can it win a championship, never mind a single playoff series?
Can he coach and be successful with difficult personalities? (Cousins, Rondo?) And if he is fearful of those personalities, how much does that hurt our opportunities to build a contending team?
And he has said a couple of what I perceive to be disingenuous things about his current roster/team to mitigate the fallout if they don't do well in the playoffs.
All that glitters........
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You can't properly evaluate Ainge without considering whether or not he was gifted KG. And since that's not a question that can be refuted (either way), it's not possible to properly evaluate Ainge beyond "Relative to his counterparts, he's a very good GM." I'd say that statement applies equally to Stevens.
1 Ring with 3 Hall of Famers says it all
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Stevens is a good coach, but he's yet to win a playoff series.
Ainge got us a title, and has pulled off multiple franchise-altering trades.
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Stevens is a good coach, but he's yet to win a playoff series.
Ainge got us a title, and has pulled off multiple franchise-altering trades.
That's easy. Stevens
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I went with Stevens, but if we don't get to the conference finals I could want to switch
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Stevens can only coach the players who he has in front of him.
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You can't properly evaluate Ainge without considering whether or not he was gifted KG. And since that's not a question that can be refuted (either way), it's not possible to properly evaluate Ainge beyond "Relative to his counterparts, he's a very good GM." I'd say that statement applies equally to Stevens.
There's no evidence that the Celtics were gifted KG. They put together a large package at the time.
Certainly, more significant than the Pau Gasol deal to L.A.-now that was a gift.
But it's apples and oranges. Ainge set the table, Brad has done the cooking-the only question is, when do we eat?
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Stevens can only coach the players who he has in front of him.
That's true, and it's a flawed roster.
At the same time, IF we lose to a #8 seed it's a really bad look. Stevens also allegedly has been vocal about player personnel, so he probably deserves some of the blame / credit there, too.
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I'm with Roy, I don't see how Brad gets out of this Celts - Bulls series with his rep as a top coach intact.
You can only coach the guys in front of you, but to be honest I haven't seen much evidence that his teams raise their level of play in the post-season, and right now we're almost 12 full games into his career as a coach in the playoffs.
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Both will be in deep doo doo if they don't get deep into playoffs next year.
Ainge needs a real big man in the worst way. But he doesn't seem to want one.
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Stevens can't keep his reputation intact after this series. Sorry. I'm officially skeptical on Brad.
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He needs a better assistant coach whos very good with X and O's. Jay Larranga just sucks. Doc had Thibs during their championship run.
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Stevens can't keep his reputation intact after this series. Sorry. I'm officially skeptical on Brad.
Been there for awhile, as I said in my earlier post.
Sorry, but skilled wings and swings and things with high character trumping and at the expense of length, rebounding and rim protection may have worked at Butler, not here with the big boys.
And Stevens has had way more than he probably should say in the personnel the decisions.
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This team has had the same glaying holes and deficiencies for 2 years none of which were even attempted to be solved except a push for a guy who was unlikely to sign in Boston. Ainge wouldn't give up a worthless pick and a guy that is barely going to play this postseason for a rental even a rental that could have solved many of the issues on the team. The team has no one that plays inside on either end of the court well. Has 25 guards and 0 centers (yes that is sarcasm). The team only has 1 above scorer who is the smallest player in the NBA and who has consistently shown he isn't very effective in the post season. This is a 40 win team by talent that Stevens just coaches up in the regular season to overachieving levels and then it invariably flames out in the post season. Ainge needs to stop getting a pass for things he did years ago. We are now starting to see the effect of having your cake and trying to eat it too. You just can't do that. A direction needs to be taken. This is the summer.
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Agree with Moranis. Stevens should be applauded for what he did this season (and last). The issue is with talent, and that rests squarely on Ainge's shoulders. If he was content knowing we'd fail to this extent in the playoffs without upgrading the frontcourt, more power to him.
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Agree with Moranis. Stevens should be applauded for what he did this season (and last). The issue is with talent, and that rests squarely on Ainge's shoulders. If he was content knowing we'd fail to this extent in the playoffs without upgrading the frontcourt, more power to him.
If the guys on the court aren't good enough, that's on Ainge. But you can't blame Ainge for the guys on the court not trying on defense. And that's what happened last night.
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This team has had the same glaying holes and deficiencies for 2 years none of which were even attempted to be solved except a push for a guy who was unlikely to sign in Boston. Ainge wouldn't give up a worthless pick and a guy that is barely going to play this postseason for a rental even a rental that could have solved many of the issues on the team. The team has no one that plays inside on either end of the court well. Has 25 guards and 0 centers (yes that is sarcasm). The team only has 1 above scorer who is the smallest player in the NBA and who has consistently shown he isn't very effective in the post season. This is a 40 win team by talent that Stevens just coaches up in the regular season to overachieving levels and then it invariably flames out in the post season. Ainge needs to stop getting a pass for things he did years ago. We are now starting to see the effect of having your cake and trying to eat it too. You just can't do that. A direction needs to be taken. This is the summer.
This is all pretty much nonsense that the amateur GMs are seizing on after looking foolish with how this team turned out better than they expected. It's just like how everyone was going nuts over Portis after Game 1. In Game 2, Portis played 9 minutes, scored 3 points and had a -11 point differential.
If anything, Ainge is largely validated by the last two games because adding anyone like Ibaka wouldn't make a bit of difference to this squad. And adding Butler or George surely wouldn't fix the problems either. Cousins is another thing but let's remember that one of the main reasons we reportedly didn't get him is because STEVENS didn't want him.
I'm not saying Ainge doesn't deserve criticism and the players obviously do, but so does the coach. The first and biggest problem with this team is the defense and when five of your top eight players are all average to outstanding individual defenders and your defense is as awful as it has been this year for Boston...whose fault is that?
Mike
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This team has had the same glaying holes and deficiencies for 2 years none of which were even attempted to be solved except a push for a guy who was unlikely to sign in Boston. Ainge wouldn't give up a worthless pick and a guy that is barely going to play this postseason for a rental even a rental that could have solved many of the issues on the team. The team has no one that plays inside on either end of the court well. Has 25 guards and 0 centers (yes that is sarcasm). The team only has 1 above scorer who is the smallest player in the NBA and who has consistently shown he isn't very effective in the post season. This is a 40 win team by talent that Stevens just coaches up in the regular season to overachieving levels and then it invariably flames out in the post season. Ainge needs to stop getting a pass for things he did years ago. We are now starting to see the effect of having your cake and trying to eat it too. You just can't do that. A direction needs to be taken. This is the summer.
Completely agree, although the posters who line up to make excuses for Ainge are going to have a stroke.
Fact is, his signature accomplishment of late has produced one draft bust, a second pick who was so horrific defensively last night that he had to be buried on the bench and two futures.
Not a whole lot.
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I don't think how you can look at our playoff performance (where coaching counts a lot more since you play the same team and have ample time to devise game plans) and not put blame on Stevens' shoulders. This team was good enough to win 53 games in the regular season. It should be good enough to not be down 0-2 against the Bulls.
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This team has had the same glaying holes and deficiencies for 2 years none of which were even attempted to be solved except a push for a guy who was unlikely to sign in Boston. Ainge wouldn't give up a worthless pick and a guy that is barely going to play this postseason for a rental even a rental that could have solved many of the issues on the team. The team has no one that plays inside on either end of the court well. Has 25 guards and 0 centers (yes that is sarcasm). The team only has 1 above scorer who is the smallest player in the NBA and who has consistently shown he isn't very effective in the post season. This is a 40 win team by talent that Stevens just coaches up in the regular season to overachieving levels and then it invariably flames out in the post season. Ainge needs to stop getting a pass for things he did years ago. We are now starting to see the effect of having your cake and trying to eat it too. You just can't do that. A direction needs to be taken. This is the summer.
This is all pretty much nonsense that the amateur GMs are seizing on after looking foolish with how this team turned out better than they expected. It's just like how everyone was going nuts over Portis after Game 1. In Game 2, Portis played 9 minutes, scored 3 points and had a -11 point differential.
If anything, Ainge is largely validated by the last two games because adding anyone like Ibaka wouldn't make a bit of difference to this squad. And adding Butler or George surely wouldn't fix the problems either. Cousins is another thing but let's remember that one of the main reasons we reportedly didn't get him is because STEVENS didn't want him.
I'm not saying Ainge doesn't deserve criticism and the players obviously do, but so does the coach. The first and biggest problem with this team is the defense and when five of your top eight players are all average to outstanding individual defenders and your defense is as awful as it has been this year for Boston...whose fault is that?
Mike
I think you're both right here.
Moranis is completely spot-on with the need for Ainge to pick a direction and stick to it, and many of us have said this same exact thing since the summer, and especially since the trade deadline. You simply can't have your cake and eat it, too, because this is the type of inherently flawed roster you get when you do that. When Danny is too cheap to spend even some of our lesser assets to upgrade this team, there's no point in even trying to compete now with how much you're handicapping the current team.
But MBunge is also right that Stevens is to blame, too, especially for our defensive woes. This poor defense didn't just suddenly crop up; we've played this type of terrible D all season long, and Brad has STILL not been able to fix it, which is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we have 3 to 4 elite defenders that are in the top 5 in minutes played for us this year. There's absolutely no excuse for the defensive drop-off that we've had this year, and even if it's a player motivation problem, that's on the softy Stevens to figure out. Maybe he needs to sack up a bit, do his job, and motivate his [dang] players to play defense with intensity.
And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
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And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
Everyone you listed brings "something". Bradley brought premium rebounding for a guard, Horford brought premium passing for a big, and Crowder brought .400 three-point shooting. I'm unsure why one group should be getting a free pass over the other.
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The product on the floor is the brainchild of both men. They will both be held responsible if this team loses this series, and even more so if they get swept by the lowly Bulls who would mostly not win a series against any other playoff team in the east, yet here they are almost halfway done sweeping us out of the [dang] tourney. I am so p---ed right now, it's like we all knew this could of happened except these two stubborn fools.
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And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
Everyone you listed brings "something". Bradley brought premium rebounding for a guard, Horford brought premium passing for a big, and Crowder brought .400 three-point shooting. I'm unsure why one group should be getting a free pass over the other.
Problem is, "premium rebounding for a guard" is not as valuable as "Makes up for Isaiah's shortcomings defensively," which is what we really need from our SG.
Same for Crowder ... the improved shooting is great, but it hasn't made him a better shot creator or rebounder, and he has had a significant dropoff in his defensive impact (last year he forced a million turnovers).
As for Horford, I love his passing and floor spacing, but at times I feel that those things can actually be selfish. There are times when this team really needs our All-Star caliber PF/C to do is make an impact on the boards and take advantage of weaker opposing big men inside. Too often Horford is willing to defer, facilitate, and spot-up outside instead of trying to shore up the weaknesses of the team on the interior.
Horford should be averaging 20+ points per game in a series where he's routinely defended by the likes of Niko Mirotic, Bobby Portis, and Christiano Felicio. It's a tough matchup for him on the boards, but he's getting punked by Robin Lopez, who is not exactly Andre Drummond in terms of cleaning the glass.
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And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
Everyone you listed brings "something". Bradley brought premium rebounding for a guard, Horford brought premium passing for a big, and Crowder brought .400 three-point shooting. I'm unsure why one group should be getting a free pass over the other.
Sure, but they all came with caveats - specifically a major step down in defense and intensity for all three of them.
IT upped his scoring while staying similarly terrible defensively, and Smart continued his terrific D while also adding playmaking to his repertoire, along with being the only guy who consistently brought energy and intensity on both sides of the floor each night.
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And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
Everyone you listed brings "something". Bradley brought premium rebounding for a guard, Horford brought premium passing for a big, and Crowder brought .400 three-point shooting. I'm unsure why one group should be getting a free pass over the other.
Problem is, "premium rebounding for a guard" is not as valuable as "Makes up for Isaiah's shortcomings defensively," which is what we really need from our SG.
Same for Crowder ... the improved shooting is great, but it hasn't made him a better shot creator or rebounder, and he has had a significant dropoff in his defensive impact (last year he forced a million turnovers).
As for Horford, I love his passing and floor spacing, but at times I feel that those things can actually be selfish. There are times when this team really needs our All-Star caliber PF/C to do is make an impact on the boards and take advantage of weaker opposing big men inside. Too often Horford is willing to defer, facilitate, and spot-up outside instead of trying to shore up the weaknesses of the team on the interior.
Horford should be averaging 20+ points per game in a series where he's routinely defended by the likes of Niko Mirotic, Bobby Portis, and Christiano Felicio. It's a tough matchup for him on the boards, but he's getting punked by Robin Lopez, who is not exactly Andre Drummond in terms of cleaning the glass.
My point was that the "at least he brings something" measure could be applied for every player Potter thought fell below expectations.
Speaking about expectations, I'm not sure why Bradley, Crowder, and Horford have "underperformed". Bradley was the only reason why this team managed to not be a complete laughing stock on the defensive glass. Other than that he was exactly the same player he was last year. Likewise, Crowder was the same player with added premium three point shooting. I'm not sure why Horford "should" be averaging 20 ppg. He's never done that in his entire career, and didn't even come close to this in last year's playoffs when we guarded him with the likes of Jared Sullinger and Kelly Olynyk. He comes exactly as advertised (at least to those who paid attention): a skilled, well-rounded, fundamentally sound player that's not going to lead your team to anything. Not a max contract player and definitely not the second best player on a great team.
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Speaking about expectations, I'm not sure why Bradley, Crowder, and Horford have "underperformed".
Bradley was the only reason why this team managed to not be a complete laughing stock on the defensive glass. Other than that he was exactly the same player he was last year. Likewise, Crowder was the same player with added premium three point shooting.
I'm not sure why Horford "should" be averaging 20 ppg. He's never done that in his entire career, and didn't even come close to this in last year's playoffs when we guarded him with the likes of Jared Sullinger and Kelly Olynyk. He comes exactly as advertised (at least to those who paid attention): a skilled, well-rounded, fundamentally sound player that's not going to lead your team to anything. Not a max contract player and definitely not the second best player on a great team.
I would say Bradley and Crowder both underperformed this year defensively. They were not able to make the same kind of defensive impact they had in year's past (though the advanced numbers have always been bad on AB).
Maybe you're right about Horford -- perhaps this is just who he is. After all, he was signed to be a third option and we just didn't get the chance to sign or trade for the #1 option.
With that said, the player he most reminds me of offensively at age 31 is a 38 year old Pau Gasol. That's not a good look, and Al's scoring production overall has gone down this year.
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And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
Everyone you listed brings "something". Bradley brought premium rebounding for a guard, Horford brought premium passing for a big, and Crowder brought .400 three-point shooting. I'm unsure why one group should be getting a free pass over the other.
Problem is, "premium rebounding for a guard" is not as valuable as "Makes up for Isaiah's shortcomings defensively," which is what we really need from our SG.
Same for Crowder ... the improved shooting is great, but it hasn't made him a better shot creator or rebounder, and he has had a significant dropoff in his defensive impact (last year he forced a million turnovers).
As for Horford, I love his passing and floor spacing, but at times I feel that those things can actually be selfish. There are times when this team really needs our All-Star caliber PF/C to do is make an impact on the boards and take advantage of weaker opposing big men inside. Too often Horford is willing to defer, facilitate, and spot-up outside instead of trying to shore up the weaknesses of the team on the interior.
Horford should be averaging 20+ points per game in a series where he's routinely defended by the likes of Niko Mirotic, Bobby Portis, and Christiano Felicio. It's a tough matchup for him on the boards, but he's getting punked by Robin Lopez, who is not exactly Andre Drummond in terms of cleaning the glass.
My point was that the "at least he brings something" measure could be applied for every player Potter thought fell below expectations.
Speaking about expectations, I'm not sure why Bradley, Crowder, and Horford have "underperformed". Bradley was the only reason why this team managed to not be a complete laughing stock on the defensive glass. Other than that he was exactly the same player he was last year. Likewise, Crowder was the same player with added premium three point shooting. I'm not sure why Horford "should" be averaging 20 ppg. He's never done that in his entire career, and didn't even come close to this in last year's playoffs when we guarded him with the likes of Jared Sullinger and Kelly Olynyk. He comes exactly as advertised (at least to those who paid attention): a skilled, well-rounded, fundamentally sound player that's not going to lead your team to anything. Not a max contract player and definitely not the second best player on a great team.
Huh? Are you watching the same Celtics team as the rest of us?
Sure, AB was good early in the year before the Achilles injury, but he's been terrible ever since, including a significant drop in his rebounding numbers.
And while Jae has improved his shot, it's come at the expense of him being much worse defensively this year, which isn't a fair trade-off for what this particular team needs.
And while Al has statistically been about where he's been most of his career, the change in teams and his role should've upped his scoring quite a bit. He's far too often been willing to sit back and let others shoot, which isn't what a max player should be doing. And that's not even mentioning his ridiculous rebounding and defensive woes this year. I believe that I read somewhere that we're something like 12 points worse with him on the floor so far this series, which is crazy given his supposed defensive reputation.
EDIT: Here's the numbers -
Meanwhile, the rest of the Celtics have not stepped up. The Boston defense goes to pieces, 12 points worse per 100 possessions, with free agent diamond Al Horford on the floor.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2017-bonafide-stars-lift-bulls-to-2-0-lead-as-celtics-formula-breaks-down/
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And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
Everyone you listed brings "something". Bradley brought premium rebounding for a guard, Horford brought premium passing for a big, and Crowder brought .400 three-point shooting. I'm unsure why one group should be getting a free pass over the other.
Sure, but they all came with caveats - specifically a major step down in defense and intensity for all three of them.
IT upped his scoring while staying similarly terrible defensively, and Smart continued his terrific D while also adding playmaking to his repertoire, along with being the only guy who consistently brought energy and intensity on both sides of the floor each night.
Not sure how much I buy this. Sure, there was slippage defensively, but overall the team didn't suffer a precipitous defensive fall on the balance (from 5th to 12th in NBA.com's ratings). Also, last year's defense was somewhat overrated.
Also, I'm not sure why you think Horford had a major step down on defense. I didn't find him materially different with us than I remember him for the rest of his career.
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And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
Everyone you listed brings "something". Bradley brought premium rebounding for a guard, Horford brought premium passing for a big, and Crowder brought .400 three-point shooting. I'm unsure why one group should be getting a free pass over the other.
Sure, but they all came with caveats - specifically a major step down in defense and intensity for all three of them.
IT upped his scoring while staying similarly terrible defensively, and Smart continued his terrific D while also adding playmaking to his repertoire, along with being the only guy who consistently brought energy and intensity on both sides of the floor each night.
Not sure how much I buy this. Sure, there was slippage defensively, but overall the team didn't suffer a precipitous defensive fall on the balance (from 5th to 12th in NBA.com's ratings). Also, last year's defense was somewhat overrated.
Also, I'm not sure why you think Horford had a major step down on defense. I didn't find him materially different with us than I remember him for the rest of his career.
This isn't considering the trend of the league, though.
Sure, 5th to 12th isn't a HUGE jump in a vacuum, though it is significant, but that represents a jump from 100.9 last year to 105.5 this year, which is huge. That same number would've put us 20th last year, which is a much bigger jump.
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And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
Everyone you listed brings "something". Bradley brought premium rebounding for a guard, Horford brought premium passing for a big, and Crowder brought .400 three-point shooting. I'm unsure why one group should be getting a free pass over the other.
Problem is, "premium rebounding for a guard" is not as valuable as "Makes up for Isaiah's shortcomings defensively," which is what we really need from our SG.
Same for Crowder ... the improved shooting is great, but it hasn't made him a better shot creator or rebounder, and he has had a significant dropoff in his defensive impact (last year he forced a million turnovers).
As for Horford, I love his passing and floor spacing, but at times I feel that those things can actually be selfish. There are times when this team really needs our All-Star caliber PF/C to do is make an impact on the boards and take advantage of weaker opposing big men inside. Too often Horford is willing to defer, facilitate, and spot-up outside instead of trying to shore up the weaknesses of the team on the interior.
Horford should be averaging 20+ points per game in a series where he's routinely defended by the likes of Niko Mirotic, Bobby Portis, and Christiano Felicio. It's a tough matchup for him on the boards, but he's getting punked by Robin Lopez, who is not exactly Andre Drummond in terms of cleaning the glass.
My point was that the "at least he brings something" measure could be applied for every player Potter thought fell below expectations.
Speaking about expectations, I'm not sure why Bradley, Crowder, and Horford have "underperformed". Bradley was the only reason why this team managed to not be a complete laughing stock on the defensive glass. Other than that he was exactly the same player he was last year. Likewise, Crowder was the same player with added premium three point shooting. I'm not sure why Horford "should" be averaging 20 ppg. He's never done that in his entire career, and didn't even come close to this in last year's playoffs when we guarded him with the likes of Jared Sullinger and Kelly Olynyk. He comes exactly as advertised (at least to those who paid attention): a skilled, well-rounded, fundamentally sound player that's not going to lead your team to anything. Not a max contract player and definitely not the second best player on a great team.
Huh? Are you watching the same Celtics team as the rest of us?
Sure, AB was good early in the year before the Achilles injury, but he's been terrible ever since, including a significant drop in his rebounding numbers.
And while Jae has improved his shot, it's come at the expense of him being much worse defensively this year, which isn't a fair trade-off for what this particular team needs.
And while Al has statistically been about where he's been most of his career, the change in teams and his role should've upped his scoring quite a bit. He's far too often been willing to sit back and let others shoot, which isn't what a max player should be doing. And that's not even mentioning his ridiculous rebounding and defensive woes this year. I believe that I read somewhere that we're something like 12 points worse with him on the floor so far this series, which is crazy given his supposed defensive reputation.
EDIT: Here's the numbers -
Meanwhile, the rest of the Celtics have not stepped up. The Boston defense goes to pieces, 12 points worse per 100 possessions, with free agent diamond Al Horford on the floor.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2017-bonafide-stars-lift-bulls-to-2-0-lead-as-celtics-formula-breaks-down/
Bradley's rebounding numbers dropped from ~7 rpg before the injury to ~5 rpg after. Also, in his "terrible" version he was still more productive, on average, last year.Either way, I'm not sure what you expected from someone who missed nearly 2 months of action.
Also re: Al Horford, his role is not fundamentally different with us than it was with Atlanta, where he played second banana to Paul Millsap. The unrealistic expectation for him are mind-boggling.
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And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
Everyone you listed brings "something". Bradley brought premium rebounding for a guard, Horford brought premium passing for a big, and Crowder brought .400 three-point shooting. I'm unsure why one group should be getting a free pass over the other.
Problem is, "premium rebounding for a guard" is not as valuable as "Makes up for Isaiah's shortcomings defensively," which is what we really need from our SG.
Same for Crowder ... the improved shooting is great, but it hasn't made him a better shot creator or rebounder, and he has had a significant dropoff in his defensive impact (last year he forced a million turnovers).
As for Horford, I love his passing and floor spacing, but at times I feel that those things can actually be selfish. There are times when this team really needs our All-Star caliber PF/C to do is make an impact on the boards and take advantage of weaker opposing big men inside. Too often Horford is willing to defer, facilitate, and spot-up outside instead of trying to shore up the weaknesses of the team on the interior.
Horford should be averaging 20+ points per game in a series where he's routinely defended by the likes of Niko Mirotic, Bobby Portis, and Christiano Felicio. It's a tough matchup for him on the boards, but he's getting punked by Robin Lopez, who is not exactly Andre Drummond in terms of cleaning the glass.
My point was that the "at least he brings something" measure could be applied for every player Potter thought fell below expectations.
Speaking about expectations, I'm not sure why Bradley, Crowder, and Horford have "underperformed". Bradley was the only reason why this team managed to not be a complete laughing stock on the defensive glass. Other than that he was exactly the same player he was last year. Likewise, Crowder was the same player with added premium three point shooting. I'm not sure why Horford "should" be averaging 20 ppg. He's never done that in his entire career, and didn't even come close to this in last year's playoffs when we guarded him with the likes of Jared Sullinger and Kelly Olynyk. He comes exactly as advertised (at least to those who paid attention): a skilled, well-rounded, fundamentally sound player that's not going to lead your team to anything. Not a max contract player and definitely not the second best player on a great team.
Huh? Are you watching the same Celtics team as the rest of us?
Sure, AB was good early in the year before the Achilles injury, but he's been terrible ever since, including a significant drop in his rebounding numbers.
And while Jae has improved his shot, it's come at the expense of him being much worse defensively this year, which isn't a fair trade-off for what this particular team needs.
And while Al has statistically been about where he's been most of his career, the change in teams and his role should've upped his scoring quite a bit. He's far too often been willing to sit back and let others shoot, which isn't what a max player should be doing. And that's not even mentioning his ridiculous rebounding and defensive woes this year. I believe that I read somewhere that we're something like 12 points worse with him on the floor so far this series, which is crazy given his supposed defensive reputation.
EDIT: Here's the numbers -
Meanwhile, the rest of the Celtics have not stepped up. The Boston defense goes to pieces, 12 points worse per 100 possessions, with free agent diamond Al Horford on the floor.
http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-playoffs-2017-bonafide-stars-lift-bulls-to-2-0-lead-as-celtics-formula-breaks-down/
Bradley's rebounding numbers dropped from ~7 rpg before the injury to ~5 rpg after. Also, in his "terrible" version he was still more productive, on average, last year.Either way, I'm not sure what you expected from someone who missed nearly 2 months of action.
Also re: Al Horford, his role is not fundamentally different with us than it was with Atlanta, where he played second banana to Paul Millsap. The unrealistic expectation for him are mind-boggling.
Once again, huh? Did Teague also not play on that team? Horford was the third option on that team behind both Millsap and Teague. He's the second option on this team, or at least he was supposed to be, so I don't understand how you think his role isn't different and larger here.
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Let's blame Ainge for a team choking? What lol? We were the number 1 seed, and if we weren't the number 1 seed then we would be the number 2. Either way, this is an epic choke job. The blame can only really go on Stevens. We're getting pushed around by their guards. It's not just Lopez. Stevens has done a bad job.
For actual non-bias, not overtly negative bias accurate insight on the series, please read this article. But if you don't like facts, then it's all good.
https://theringer.com/2017-nba-playoffs-boston-celtics-chicago-bulls-game-2-b162f42ad989
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Once again, huh? Did Teague also not play on that team? Horford was the third option on that team behind both Millsap and Teague. He's the second option on this team, or at least he was supposed to be, so I don't understand how you think his role isn't different and larger here.
... under the bridge, my friends.
I don't think you can consider Teague higher on the offensive totem pole than Horford. That's a player who is largely comparable to Bradley and Crowder in terms of offensive output.
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Once again, huh? Did Teague also not play on that team? Horford was the third option on that team behind both Millsap and Teague. He's the second option on this team, or at least he was supposed to be, so I don't understand how you think his role isn't different and larger here.
... under the bridge, my friends.
I don't think you can consider Teague higher on the offensive totem pole than Horford. That's a player who is largely comparable to Bradley and Crowder in terms of offensive output.
Sure you can. Bradley and Crowder might be better set shooters than Teague, but Teague is pretty much better in every other area offensively.
He can create for himself and others; Bradley can't dribble more than three times or make anything more than a basic pass without turning it over, and Crowder is incapable of anything but a straight-line drive. Teague is a much more complete overall offensive player than either Bradley or Crowder.
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Once again, huh? Did Teague also not play on that team? Horford was the third option on that team behind both Millsap and Teague. He's the second option on this team, or at least he was supposed to be, so I don't understand how you think his role isn't different and larger here.
... under the bridge, my friends.
I don't think you can consider Teague higher on the offensive totem pole than Horford. That's a player who is largely comparable to Bradley and Crowder in terms of offensive output.
I have to agree with Koz, even though it kills me. Horford is what he is. I don't think a lot of people here were happy with the contract initially.
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This team has had the same glaying holes and deficiencies for 2 years none of which were even attempted to be solved except a push for a guy who was unlikely to sign in Boston. Ainge wouldn't give up a worthless pick and a guy that is barely going to play this postseason for a rental even a rental that could have solved many of the issues on the team. The team has no one that plays inside on either end of the court well. Has 25 guards and 0 centers (yes that is sarcasm). The team only has 1 above scorer who is the smallest player in the NBA and who has consistently shown he isn't very effective in the post season. This is a 40 win team by talent that Stevens just coaches up in the regular season to overachieving levels and then it invariably flames out in the post season. Ainge needs to stop getting a pass for things he did years ago. We are now starting to see the effect of having your cake and trying to eat it too. You just can't do that. A direction needs to be taken. This is the summer.
This is all pretty much nonsense that the amateur GMs are seizing on after looking foolish with how this team turned out better than they expected. It's just like how everyone was going nuts over Portis after Game 1. In Game 2, Portis played 9 minutes, scored 3 points and had a -11 point differential.
If anything, Ainge is largely validated by the last two games because adding anyone like Ibaka wouldn't make a bit of difference to this squad. And adding Butler or George surely wouldn't fix the problems either. Cousins is another thing but let's remember that one of the main reasons we reportedly didn't get him is because STEVENS didn't want him.
I'm not saying Ainge doesn't deserve criticism and the players obviously do, but so does the coach. The first and biggest problem with this team is the defense and when five of your top eight players are all average to outstanding individual defenders and your defense is as awful as it has been this year for Boston...whose fault is that?
Mike
I think you're both right here.
Moranis is completely spot-on with the need for Ainge to pick a direction and stick to it, and many of us have said this same exact thing since the summer, and especially since the trade deadline. You simply can't have your cake and eat it, too, because this is the type of inherently flawed roster you get when you do that. When Danny is too cheap to spend even some of our lesser assets to upgrade this team, there's no point in even trying to compete now with how much you're handicapping the current team.
But MBunge is also right that Stevens is to blame, too, especially for our defensive woes. This poor defense didn't just suddenly crop up; we've played this type of terrible D all season long, and Brad has STILL not been able to fix it, which is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we have 3 to 4 elite defenders that are in the top 5 in minutes played for us this year. There's absolutely no excuse for the defensive drop-off that we've had this year, and even if it's a player motivation problem, that's on the softy Stevens to figure out. Maybe he needs to sack up a bit, do his job, and motivate his [dang] players to play defense with intensity.
And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
The defense isn't that much worse though. Opponents FG% went from 44.1 to 45.0 percent. The opponents PPG went up 2 points, but only went from 13th to 15th in the league but the offense's PPG also went up 2 (though the league is scoring a lot more this year as Boston went from 5th to 7th despite scoring 2.3 more ppg). Boston did a much better job in the foul line and a better job forcing turnovers. The biggest difference statistically this year is rebounding. Boston went from a 1.1 discrepancy to a 2.5 discrepancy and was one of the worst offensive rebounding teams I can remember. That is a lot of extra possessions and the team not only failed to address rebounding at any point in the prior year intentionally got worse by eliminating its best rebounder and by failing to replace him.
Defense is not the teams problem. It lacks a high level 2nd scorer, it lacks rebounder, and it lacks a top level rim protector. Those are the same 3 glaring weaknesses Boston had last year as well and Ainge just flat out didn't address any of those weaknesses. He shouldn't be given a pass for that especially when there were plenty of players available and available very cheaply at the deadline that would have addressed all of those issues. Put it this way, is Boston down 0-2 if it had Carmelo Anthony and Nerlens Noel on the roster right now. Maybe you don't want Anthony or Noel, but what about Ibaka and Tucker. Or maybe just Cousins. Was keeping Crowder really worth not having Butler? I mean if the reports are believed, Boston could have acquired Butler before the last draft for 3, Bradley, and Crowder, but Ainge didn't want to give up both Bradley and Crowder and the trade never happened.
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Once again, huh? Did Teague also not play on that team? Horford was the third option on that team behind both Millsap and Teague. He's the second option on this team, or at least he was supposed to be, so I don't understand how you think his role isn't different and larger here.
... under the bridge, my friends.
I don't think you can consider Teague higher on the offensive totem pole than Horford. That's a player who is largely comparable to Bradley and Crowder in terms of offensive output.
Sure you can. Bradley and Crowder might be better set shooters than Teague, but Teague is pretty much better in every other area offensively.
He can create for himself and others; Bradley can't dribble more than three times or make anything more than a basic pass without turning it over, and Crowder is incapable of anything but a straight-line drive. Teague is a much more complete overall offensive player than either Bradley or Crowder.
Horford can't create for himself, though. Why did you expect him to magically transform into someone who isn't? As far as offensive output is concerned, he's going to be set up for shots here the same way he was in Atlanta. He is what he is -- did you think that just because he changed teams, he's be able to take people off the dribble or post them up with regularity?
Sure, you may want Horford to do more, but he is what he is. That's the way he was in Atlanta and that's the way he is here. He's not a scorer, just a good all-around player that got paid a lot though no fault of his own.
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Once again, huh? Did Teague also not play on that team? Horford was the third option on that team behind both Millsap and Teague. He's the second option on this team, or at least he was supposed to be, so I don't understand how you think his role isn't different and larger here.
... under the bridge, my friends.
I don't think you can consider Teague higher on the offensive totem pole than Horford. That's a player who is largely comparable to Bradley and Crowder in terms of offensive output.
Sure you can. Bradley and Crowder might be better set shooters than Teague, but Teague is pretty much better in every other area offensively.
He can create for himself and others; Bradley can't dribble more than three times or make anything more than a basic pass without turning it over, and Crowder is incapable of anything but a straight-line drive. Teague is a much more complete overall offensive player than either Bradley or Crowder.
Horford can't create for himself, though. Why did you expect him to magically transform into someone who isn't?
Nobody expected him to turn into a 20 ppg scorer throughout the season, but he should certainly be taking much more advantage of these soft matchups in the playoffs. He's also been way too passive at times and should be more aggressive looking to score.
Now all that isn't on Horford, though. I think Brad has largely done him a disservice by trying to play him as a PF, both offensively and defensively, when he's clearly a stretch 5. If you would've played Horford as the 5 primarily with someone like JJ or KO, he would've had a ton more room to work inside with the spacing provided by those two, and he would've got even more open looks out on the perimeter.
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Both need help. Danny should force a couple of bigs who can rebound and protect the rim.
Stevens needs to learn to plan and coach inside bigs.
All of our bigs need to go.
Danny played with The Chief, McHale and Bird all rebounded and ran the floor.
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This team has had the same glaying holes and deficiencies for 2 years none of which were even attempted to be solved except a push for a guy who was unlikely to sign in Boston. Ainge wouldn't give up a worthless pick and a guy that is barely going to play this postseason for a rental even a rental that could have solved many of the issues on the team. The team has no one that plays inside on either end of the court well. Has 25 guards and 0 centers (yes that is sarcasm). The team only has 1 above scorer who is the smallest player in the NBA and who has consistently shown he isn't very effective in the post season. This is a 40 win team by talent that Stevens just coaches up in the regular season to overachieving levels and then it invariably flames out in the post season. Ainge needs to stop getting a pass for things he did years ago. We are now starting to see the effect of having your cake and trying to eat it too. You just can't do that. A direction needs to be taken. This is the summer.
This is all pretty much nonsense that the amateur GMs are seizing on after looking foolish with how this team turned out better than they expected. It's just like how everyone was going nuts over Portis after Game 1. In Game 2, Portis played 9 minutes, scored 3 points and had a -11 point differential.
If anything, Ainge is largely validated by the last two games because adding anyone like Ibaka wouldn't make a bit of difference to this squad. And adding Butler or George surely wouldn't fix the problems either. Cousins is another thing but let's remember that one of the main reasons we reportedly didn't get him is because STEVENS didn't want him.
I'm not saying Ainge doesn't deserve criticism and the players obviously do, but so does the coach. The first and biggest problem with this team is the defense and when five of your top eight players are all average to outstanding individual defenders and your defense is as awful as it has been this year for Boston...whose fault is that?
Mike
I think you're both right here.
Moranis is completely spot-on with the need for Ainge to pick a direction and stick to it, and many of us have said this same exact thing since the summer, and especially since the trade deadline. You simply can't have your cake and eat it, too, because this is the type of inherently flawed roster you get when you do that. When Danny is too cheap to spend even some of our lesser assets to upgrade this team, there's no point in even trying to compete now with how much you're handicapping the current team.
But MBunge is also right that Stevens is to blame, too, especially for our defensive woes. This poor defense didn't just suddenly crop up; we've played this type of terrible D all season long, and Brad has STILL not been able to fix it, which is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we have 3 to 4 elite defenders that are in the top 5 in minutes played for us this year. There's absolutely no excuse for the defensive drop-off that we've had this year, and even if it's a player motivation problem, that's on the softy Stevens to figure out. Maybe he needs to sack up a bit, do his job, and motivate his [dang] players to play defense with intensity.
And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
The defense isn't that much worse though. Opponents FG% went from 44.1 to 45.0 percent. The opponents PPG went up 2 points, but only went from 13th to 15th in the league but the offense's PPG also went up 2 (though the league is scoring a lot more this year as Boston went from 5th to 7th despite scoring 2.3 more ppg). Boston did a much better job in the foul line and a better job forcing turnovers. The biggest difference statistically this year is rebounding. Boston went from a 1.1 discrepancy to a 2.5 discrepancy and was one of the worst offensive rebounding teams I can remember. That is a lot of extra possessions and the team not only failed to address rebounding at any point in the prior year intentionally got worse by eliminating its best rebounder and by failing to replace him.
Defense is not the teams problem. It lacks a high level 2nd scorer, it lacks rebounder, and it lacks a top level rim protector. Those are the same 3 glaring weaknesses Boston had last year as well and Ainge just flat out didn't address any of those weaknesses. He shouldn't be given a pass for that especially when there were plenty of players available and available very cheaply at the deadline that would have addressed all of those issues. Put it this way, is Boston down 0-2 if it had Carmelo Anthony and Nerlens Noel on the roster right now. Maybe you don't want Anthony or Noel, but what about Ibaka and Tucker. Or maybe just Cousins. Was keeping Crowder really worth not having Butler? I mean if the reports are believed, Boston could have acquired Butler before the last draft for 3, Bradley, and Crowder, but Ainge didn't want to give up both Bradley and Crowder and the trade never happened.
I don't think cherry picking individual stats really represents what has happened to Boston's defense.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/defensive-efficiency?date=2016-06-20
This site has the Celtics' overall team defensive ranking going from #4 last season to #13 in the league this season.
http://stats.nba.com/teams/defense/#!?sort=W&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
This site has us going from #5 to #12.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017_ratings.html
This site has us dropping from #4 to # 13 as well.
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff
This one has us dropping from tied for #4 to #12 in defensive efficiency.
That's a very significant drop off for a team that arguably upgraded defensively with Al over Sully and only lost Even Turner. It's going from an elite defense to an ordinary one with virtually the same players.
And who really cares about getting out of the first round? If we can't beat the Bulls as we are, adding Ibaka and Tucker isn't going to make us any more likely to beat the Cavs or even make it out of the second round. And, in case you missed it, the Bulls actually HAD Butler this year and were a lot worse than we were during the regular season.
Cousins is a different matter. If we get swept out of the first round, or even lose a six or seven game series to Chicago, it should be open season on ripping Ainge for not going hard after Cousins. But Brad Stevens should be included in each and every rip since all the signs point to him wanting nothing to do with Cousins.
Mike
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Defense is not the teams problem.
Defense is absolutely this team's problem.
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Once again, huh? Did Teague also not play on that team? Horford was the third option on that team behind both Millsap and Teague. He's the second option on this team, or at least he was supposed to be, so I don't understand how you think his role isn't different and larger here.
... under the bridge, my friends.
I don't think you can consider Teague higher on the offensive totem pole than Horford. That's a player who is largely comparable to Bradley and Crowder in terms of offensive output.
Sure you can. Bradley and Crowder might be better set shooters than Teague, but Teague is pretty much better in every other area offensively.
He can create for himself and others; Bradley can't dribble more than three times or make anything more than a basic pass without turning it over, and Crowder is incapable of anything but a straight-line drive. Teague is a much more complete overall offensive player than either Bradley or Crowder.
Horford can't create for himself, though. Why did you expect him to magically transform into someone who isn't? As far as offensive output is concerned, he's going to be set up for shots here the same way he was in Atlanta. He is what he is -- did you think that just because he changed teams, he's be able to take people off the dribble or post them up with regularity?
Sure, you may want Horford to do more, but he is what he is. That's the way he was in Atlanta and that's the way he is here. He's not a scorer, just a good all-around player that got paid a lot though no fault of his own.
I in no way want to make excuses for Horford but I think Horford helps IT but IT does little to help Horford. I think with someone like Rondo Horford would be much better off.
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Defense is not the teams problem.
Defense is absolutely this team's problem.
Boston has been outrebounded by 22 boards in the two games. Boston went from a 35.9% three point shooting team to 33.8% through two games. Went from 80.7% at the line to 65.8% through the two games. Boston has 2 more turnovers per game than the regular season. Yes Chicago is shooting a bit better than they did in the regular season, but it isn't from Butler, Wade, and Rondo (who collectively are all right about their season averages), it is because of guys like Robin Lopez getting easy buckets off offensive rebounds and turnovers.
Defense isn't Boston's problem, it is rebounding and the fact that no one can create a shot except for Thomas, who is 5'9" tall and can't play 48 mpg.
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This team has had the same glaying holes and deficiencies for 2 years none of which were even attempted to be solved except a push for a guy who was unlikely to sign in Boston. Ainge wouldn't give up a worthless pick and a guy that is barely going to play this postseason for a rental even a rental that could have solved many of the issues on the team. The team has no one that plays inside on either end of the court well. Has 25 guards and 0 centers (yes that is sarcasm). The team only has 1 above scorer who is the smallest player in the NBA and who has consistently shown he isn't very effective in the post season. This is a 40 win team by talent that Stevens just coaches up in the regular season to overachieving levels and then it invariably flames out in the post season. Ainge needs to stop getting a pass for things he did years ago. We are now starting to see the effect of having your cake and trying to eat it too. You just can't do that. A direction needs to be taken. This is the summer.
This is all pretty much nonsense that the amateur GMs are seizing on after looking foolish with how this team turned out better than they expected. It's just like how everyone was going nuts over Portis after Game 1. In Game 2, Portis played 9 minutes, scored 3 points and had a -11 point differential.
If anything, Ainge is largely validated by the last two games because adding anyone like Ibaka wouldn't make a bit of difference to this squad. And adding Butler or George surely wouldn't fix the problems either. Cousins is another thing but let's remember that one of the main reasons we reportedly didn't get him is because STEVENS didn't want him.
I'm not saying Ainge doesn't deserve criticism and the players obviously do, but so does the coach. The first and biggest problem with this team is the defense and when five of your top eight players are all average to outstanding individual defenders and your defense is as awful as it has been this year for Boston...whose fault is that?
Mike
I think you're both right here.
Moranis is completely spot-on with the need for Ainge to pick a direction and stick to it, and many of us have said this same exact thing since the summer, and especially since the trade deadline. You simply can't have your cake and eat it, too, because this is the type of inherently flawed roster you get when you do that. When Danny is too cheap to spend even some of our lesser assets to upgrade this team, there's no point in even trying to compete now with how much you're handicapping the current team.
But MBunge is also right that Stevens is to blame, too, especially for our defensive woes. This poor defense didn't just suddenly crop up; we've played this type of terrible D all season long, and Brad has STILL not been able to fix it, which is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we have 3 to 4 elite defenders that are in the top 5 in minutes played for us this year. There's absolutely no excuse for the defensive drop-off that we've had this year, and even if it's a player motivation problem, that's on the softy Stevens to figure out. Maybe he needs to sack up a bit, do his job, and motivate his [dang] players to play defense with intensity.
And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
The defense isn't that much worse though. Opponents FG% went from 44.1 to 45.0 percent. The opponents PPG went up 2 points, but only went from 13th to 15th in the league but the offense's PPG also went up 2 (though the league is scoring a lot more this year as Boston went from 5th to 7th despite scoring 2.3 more ppg). Boston did a much better job in the foul line and a better job forcing turnovers. The biggest difference statistically this year is rebounding. Boston went from a 1.1 discrepancy to a 2.5 discrepancy and was one of the worst offensive rebounding teams I can remember. That is a lot of extra possessions and the team not only failed to address rebounding at any point in the prior year intentionally got worse by eliminating its best rebounder and by failing to replace him.
Defense is not the teams problem. It lacks a high level 2nd scorer, it lacks rebounder, and it lacks a top level rim protector. Those are the same 3 glaring weaknesses Boston had last year as well and Ainge just flat out didn't address any of those weaknesses. He shouldn't be given a pass for that especially when there were plenty of players available and available very cheaply at the deadline that would have addressed all of those issues. Put it this way, is Boston down 0-2 if it had Carmelo Anthony and Nerlens Noel on the roster right now. Maybe you don't want Anthony or Noel, but what about Ibaka and Tucker. Or maybe just Cousins. Was keeping Crowder really worth not having Butler? I mean if the reports are believed, Boston could have acquired Butler before the last draft for 3, Bradley, and Crowder, but Ainge didn't want to give up both Bradley and Crowder and the trade never happened.
I don't think cherry picking individual stats really represents what has happened to Boston's defense.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/defensive-efficiency?date=2016-06-20
This site has the Celtics' overall team defensive ranking going from #4 last season to #13 in the league this season.
http://stats.nba.com/teams/defense/#!?sort=W&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
This site has us going from #5 to #12.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017_ratings.html
This site has us dropping from #4 to # 13 as well.
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff
This one has us dropping from tied for #4 to #12 in defensive efficiency.
That's a very significant drop off for a team that arguably upgraded defensively with Al over Sully and only lost Even Turner. It's going from an elite defense to an ordinary one with virtually the same players.
And who really cares about getting out of the first round? If we can't beat the Bulls as we are, adding Ibaka and Tucker isn't going to make us any more likely to beat the Cavs or even make it out of the second round. And, in case you missed it, the Bulls actually HAD Butler this year and were a lot worse than we were during the regular season.
Cousins is a different matter. If we get swept out of the first round, or even lose a six or seven game series to Chicago, it should be open season on ripping Ainge for not going hard after Cousins. But Brad Stevens should be included in each and every rip since all the signs point to him wanting nothing to do with Cousins.
Mike
The thing about many of those stats is they don't always account for pace or Boston's greater offense. Take the defensive efficiency stats you have. Boston is .05 worse than last year, but it is also .05 better offensively. That matches what Hollinger's stats show. http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff. Sure the defense gives up 3 more ppg, but the offense scores 3.1 more ppg so the differential is actually greater this year. Many of those ratings are different variations on points per 100 possessions, sure you would like to increase your offense and decrease your defense but that is rare. Teams like Golden State are the exception not the rule when it comes to those type of things.
And getting out of the 1st round absolutely matters, especially when you are the 1 seed. Secondly, getting someone like Ibaka or Noel, while not making Boston a challenge to Cleveland, would put Boston a heck of a lot closer such that acquiring someone like Butler, George, Hayward, or Griffin might actually allow Boston to legitimately challenge Cleveland. Either the team is rebuilding or it is not. You can't just float along not doing one or the other. This is the result of that type of thinking. A solid regular season with no hope of even winning a first round playoff series. And seriously, Rozier and something like the Boston 2018 1st is too much to give up for a possible rental. I mean seriously, Ainge wouldn't move those two things for someone like Ibaka or Noel. That is just nonsense. It was the right move at the time and it most clearly appears to be the right move now. Rozier shouldn't be on the team next year (he just isn't any good and won't get any minutes so he might as well get moved for anything) and the 2018 pick will end up being a draft and stash or moved unless Boston tanks because there just isn't going to be roster space for yet another James Young type player. How many more late first round picks is Boston going to waste before people realize they should be moved for actual players.
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Mods please delete if possible
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The Celtics are getting dominated by a third tier JAG center who averaged 6 rebounds a game this season...
Since at least half the fan base was clamoring for a rebounder/shot-blocker for the last 2 seasons while predicting this exact situation I'd say this is 100% on Danny Ainge.
It's doubly condemning that this was essentially the year that a plethora of young active big men went on the trade market for cheap and Ainge passed time and time again choosing to inexplicably horde his overabundance of assets.
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Defense is not the teams problem.
Defense is absolutely this team's problem.
Boston has been outrebounded by 22 boards in the two games. Boston went from a 35.9% three point shooting team to 33.8% through two games. Went from 80.7% at the line to 65.8% through the two games. Boston has 2 more turnovers per game than the regular season. Yes Chicago is shooting a bit better than they did in the regular season, but it isn't from Butler, Wade, and Rondo (who collectively are all right about their season averages), it is because of guys like Robin Lopez getting easy buckets off offensive rebounds and turnovers.
Defense isn't Boston's problem, it is rebounding and the fact that no one can create a shot except for Thomas, who is 5'9" tall and can't play 48 mpg.
You're spot on this team outside of IT as individuals are sooo bad offensively why do people not see that
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Nobody expected him to turn into a 20 ppg scorer throughout the season, but he should certainly be taking much more advantage of these soft matchups in the playoffs. He's also been way too passive at times and should be more aggressive looking to score.
Now all that isn't on Horford, though. I think Brad has largely done him a disservice by trying to play him as a PF, both offensively and defensively, when he's clearly a stretch 5. If you would've played Horford as the 5 primarily with someone like JJ or KO, he would've had a ton more room to work inside with the spacing provided by those two, and he would've got even more open looks out on the perimeter.
That's the story of Horford's career, though. And I do think it's highly unrealistic to expect that he'll miraculously develop a killer instinct on offense at the age of 30.
I don't think any amount of coaching will change this, nor do I think playing him at the 5 will do any good. He's looked pretty awful this year when trying to post up bigger guys, regardless of the amount of space he's had to work with.
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This team has had the same glaying holes and deficiencies for 2 years none of which were even attempted to be solved except a push for a guy who was unlikely to sign in Boston. Ainge wouldn't give up a worthless pick and a guy that is barely going to play this postseason for a rental even a rental that could have solved many of the issues on the team. The team has no one that plays inside on either end of the court well. Has 25 guards and 0 centers (yes that is sarcasm). The team only has 1 above scorer who is the smallest player in the NBA and who has consistently shown he isn't very effective in the post season. This is a 40 win team by talent that Stevens just coaches up in the regular season to overachieving levels and then it invariably flames out in the post season. Ainge needs to stop getting a pass for things he did years ago. We are now starting to see the effect of having your cake and trying to eat it too. You just can't do that. A direction needs to be taken. This is the summer.
This is all pretty much nonsense that the amateur GMs are seizing on after looking foolish with how this team turned out better than they expected. It's just like how everyone was going nuts over Portis after Game 1. In Game 2, Portis played 9 minutes, scored 3 points and had a -11 point differential.
If anything, Ainge is largely validated by the last two games because adding anyone like Ibaka wouldn't make a bit of difference to this squad. And adding Butler or George surely wouldn't fix the problems either. Cousins is another thing but let's remember that one of the main reasons we reportedly didn't get him is because STEVENS didn't want him.
I'm not saying Ainge doesn't deserve criticism and the players obviously do, but so does the coach. The first and biggest problem with this team is the defense and when five of your top eight players are all average to outstanding individual defenders and your defense is as awful as it has been this year for Boston...whose fault is that?
Mike
I think you're both right here.
Moranis is completely spot-on with the need for Ainge to pick a direction and stick to it, and many of us have said this same exact thing since the summer, and especially since the trade deadline. You simply can't have your cake and eat it, too, because this is the type of inherently flawed roster you get when you do that. When Danny is too cheap to spend even some of our lesser assets to upgrade this team, there's no point in even trying to compete now with how much you're handicapping the current team.
But MBunge is also right that Stevens is to blame, too, especially for our defensive woes. This poor defense didn't just suddenly crop up; we've played this type of terrible D all season long, and Brad has STILL not been able to fix it, which is ridiculous when you consider the fact that we have 3 to 4 elite defenders that are in the top 5 in minutes played for us this year. There's absolutely no excuse for the defensive drop-off that we've had this year, and even if it's a player motivation problem, that's on the softy Stevens to figure out. Maybe he needs to sack up a bit, do his job, and motivate his [dang] players to play defense with intensity.
And finally, the players are obviously to blame, too. Specifically, I think much of the blame needs to be put on AB, Jae, and Al, who have consistently fallen below expectations this year, especially defensively. Funnily enough, it seems that IT and Smart always get a ton of blame when in fact they at least bring something (scoring or defense and intensity) every night, which is more than we can say for the rest of the team.
The defense isn't that much worse though. Opponents FG% went from 44.1 to 45.0 percent. The opponents PPG went up 2 points, but only went from 13th to 15th in the league but the offense's PPG also went up 2 (though the league is scoring a lot more this year as Boston went from 5th to 7th despite scoring 2.3 more ppg). Boston did a much better job in the foul line and a better job forcing turnovers. The biggest difference statistically this year is rebounding. Boston went from a 1.1 discrepancy to a 2.5 discrepancy and was one of the worst offensive rebounding teams I can remember. That is a lot of extra possessions and the team not only failed to address rebounding at any point in the prior year intentionally got worse by eliminating its best rebounder and by failing to replace him.
Defense is not the teams problem. It lacks a high level 2nd scorer, it lacks rebounder, and it lacks a top level rim protector. Those are the same 3 glaring weaknesses Boston had last year as well and Ainge just flat out didn't address any of those weaknesses. He shouldn't be given a pass for that especially when there were plenty of players available and available very cheaply at the deadline that would have addressed all of those issues. Put it this way, is Boston down 0-2 if it had Carmelo Anthony and Nerlens Noel on the roster right now. Maybe you don't want Anthony or Noel, but what about Ibaka and Tucker. Or maybe just Cousins. Was keeping Crowder really worth not having Butler? I mean if the reports are believed, Boston could have acquired Butler before the last draft for 3, Bradley, and Crowder, but Ainge didn't want to give up both Bradley and Crowder and the trade never happened.
I don't think cherry picking individual stats really represents what has happened to Boston's defense.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/defensive-efficiency?date=2016-06-20
This site has the Celtics' overall team defensive ranking going from #4 last season to #13 in the league this season.
http://stats.nba.com/teams/defense/#!?sort=W&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
This site has us going from #5 to #12.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017_ratings.html
This site has us dropping from #4 to # 13 as well.
http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff
This one has us dropping from tied for #4 to #12 in defensive efficiency.
That's a very significant drop off for a team that arguably upgraded defensively with Al over Sully and only lost Even Turner. It's going from an elite defense to an ordinary one with virtually the same players.
And who really cares about getting out of the first round? If we can't beat the Bulls as we are, adding Ibaka and Tucker isn't going to make us any more likely to beat the Cavs or even make it out of the second round. And, in case you missed it, the Bulls actually HAD Butler this year and were a lot worse than we were during the regular season.
Cousins is a different matter. If we get swept out of the first round, or even lose a six or seven game series to Chicago, it should be open season on ripping Ainge for not going hard after Cousins. But Brad Stevens should be included in each and every rip since all the signs point to him wanting nothing to do with Cousins.
Mike
The thing about many of those stats is they don't always account for pace or Boston's greater offense. Take the defensive efficiency stats you have. Boston is .05 worse than last year, but it is also .05 better offensively. That matches what Hollinger's stats show. http://www.espn.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/defensiveEff. Sure the defense gives up 3 more ppg, but the offense scores 3.1 more ppg so the differential is actually greater this year. Many of those ratings are different variations on points per 100 possessions, sure you would like to increase your offense and decrease your defense but that is rare. Teams like Golden State are the exception not the rule when it comes to those type of things.
And getting out of the 1st round absolutely matters, especially when you are the 1 seed. Secondly, getting someone like Ibaka or Noel, while not making Boston a challenge to Cleveland, would put Boston a heck of a lot closer such that acquiring someone like Butler, George, Hayward, or Griffin might actually allow Boston to legitimately challenge Cleveland. Either the team is rebuilding or it is not. You can't just float along not doing one or the other. This is the result of that type of thinking. A solid regular season with no hope of even winning a first round playoff series. And seriously, Rozier and something like the Boston 2018 1st is too much to give up for a possible rental. I mean seriously, Ainge wouldn't move those two things for someone like Ibaka or Noel. That is just nonsense. It was the right move at the time and it most clearly appears to be the right move now. Rozier shouldn't be on the team next year (he just isn't any good and won't get any minutes so he might as well get moved for anything) and the 2018 pick will end up being a draft and stash or moved unless Boston tanks because there just isn't going to be roster space for yet another James Young type player. How many more late first round picks is Boston going to waste before people realize they should be moved for actual players.
This is a great example of what has become the defining flaw of the modern age. You can find data to support any position. The idea that the Celtics defense isn't a problem and hasn't declined is ridiculous but as long as you can find ANY information to dispute that, you're just going to ignore any and all other evidence.
I'm not saying rebounding isn't a problem as well but rebounding has a lot to do with players. You can only improve KO's rebounding so much, but if you bring in a better rebounder that guy won't do a lot of the things KO does well. And much like when we had KG and Perk, a team can emphasize things over rebounding. Those teams made almost no effort to crash the offensive glass and prioritized getting back on defense and defensive rotations that sometimes left guys in poor rebounding position.
But EVERY team needs to play defense if they want to be a contender. And honestly, the lack of effort and attention to detail that is a problem on defense also exacerbates the issues with rebounding.
All of which gets back to Stevens and coaching. I just saw Rusillo on ESPN totally trashing Westbrook while completely letting Stevens off the hook. And his defense of Stevens had nothing to do with stats or analysis or logic. It was just "I know Stevens is a good coach so it CAN'T be his fault."
Mike
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Stevens reportedly said that the Bulls are doing the same thing the Hawks did to them in last year's playoffs....duhh. I mean wouldn't he expect that to happen.
The bigger question is why has it taken him 2 games to adjust and when did he discover this? We basically have the same team and IT is still the main scorer, I would look at what the Hawks did too. The Wiz will do the same thing if we advance. Until a change is made or someone steps up consistently this is what is going to happen.
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And while ESPN.com has Boston ranked 27th for rebound differential per game, the Pacers are 25th and the Bucks are 23rd. Yet not only have both teams looked much better against better competition, the Bucks might actually make it to the second round.
Mike
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And while ESPN.com has Boston ranked 27th for rebound differential per game, the Pacers are 25th and the Bucks are 23rd. Yet not only have both teams looked much better against better competition, the Bucks might actually make it to the second round.
Mike
The Raptors are outrebounding the Bucks. The Pacers are playing the Cavs who are also a poor rebounding team (and the Pacers differential is 1.5 rpg). I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Boston is getting crushed on the glass, it isn't close. You can't be -11.5 rgp and consistently win games unless you are shooting 60% or holding your opponent to 30%.
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We lack length at every position.
Sure, IT gets heralded for being 5'9'' but then we surround him with short guys with short wingspans and standing reaches.
We have no size or length.....especially in the front-court
That is all DA. Stevens has done a great job(wish he hadn;t so we would have missed the playoffs in 15') with what he has. It is DA that has not gotten the memo to invest in some players with real length for the front-court.
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And while ESPN.com has Boston ranked 27th for rebound differential per game, the Pacers are 25th and the Bucks are 23rd. Yet not only have both teams looked much better against better competition, the Bucks might actually make it to the second round.
Mike
The Raptors are outrebounding the Bucks. The Pacers are playing the Cavs who are also a poor rebounding team (and the Pacers differential is 1.5 rpg). I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Boston is getting crushed on the glass, it isn't close. You can't be -11.5 rgp and consistently win games unless you are shooting 60% or holding your opponent to 30%.
But the problem with this team is NOT that they've just played one bad and one terrible game in the wake of the IT tragedy. The problem with this team is the flaws it has displayed all season long. Yes, rebounding is one of them but so is defense. Boston did not have a -11.5 rebound differential all year long. They would have barely won 20 games if that were the case.
The Lakers and the Knicks both had better rebound differentials in the regular season than Boston. What did that get them? And if a team must completely implodes, it makes no sense to put the blame on just one thing.
I focus on defense because the effort and accountability at the core of that problem bleeds over into many other areas.
Mike
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And while ESPN.com has Boston ranked 27th for rebound differential per game, the Pacers are 25th and the Bucks are 23rd. Yet not only have both teams looked much better against better competition, the Bucks might actually make it to the second round.
Mike
The Raptors are outrebounding the Bucks. The Pacers are playing the Cavs who are also a poor rebounding team (and the Pacers differential is 1.5 rpg). I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Boston is getting crushed on the glass, it isn't close. You can't be -11.5 rgp and consistently win games unless you are shooting 60% or holding your opponent to 30%.
But the problem with this team is NOT that they've just played one bad and one terrible game in the wake of the IT tragedy. The problem with this team is the flaws it has displayed all season long. Yes, rebounding is one of them but so is defense. Boston did not have a -11.5 rebound differential all year long. They would have barely won 20 games if that were the case.
The Lakers and the Knicks both had better rebound differentials in the regular season than Boston. What did that get them? And if a team must completely implodes, it makes no sense to put the blame on just one thing.
I focus on defense because the effort and accountability at the core of that problem bleeds over into many other areas.
Mike
Boston played Chicago three times in the regular season, Chicago was 2-1. In the two Chicago wins, Chicago outrebounded Boston by 19 and 20. In the Boston win, Boston outrebounded Chicago by 11.
The Bulls had the 3rd best rebounding differential during the season. That is why Chicago was a bad matchup for Boston especially when you couple their great perimeter defense (Rondo, Butler). They can take full advantage of Boston's greatest weakness (Detroit was also an excellent rebounding team and Miami was in the top half of the league).
Being a great rebounding team on its own doesn't mean all that much, but having watched Boston all year, it was clear that rebounding was the team's biggest weakness and if it couldn't make up for it by being super efficient offensively it would spell doom in the playoffs (that is why a great rebounding team like Phoenix was one of the worst teams in the league, because it was horrid offensively). The Bulls have played good defense and are destroying the Celtics on the glass. If that doesn't change, Boston will get swept.
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And while ESPN.com has Boston ranked 27th for rebound differential per game, the Pacers are 25th and the Bucks are 23rd. Yet not only have both teams looked much better against better competition, the Bucks might actually make it to the second round.
Mike
The Raptors are outrebounding the Bucks. The Pacers are playing the Cavs who are also a poor rebounding team (and the Pacers differential is 1.5 rpg). I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Boston is getting crushed on the glass, it isn't close. You can't be -11.5 rgp and consistently win games unless you are shooting 60% or holding your opponent to 30%.
But the problem with this team is NOT that they've just played one bad and one terrible game in the wake of the IT tragedy. The problem with this team is the flaws it has displayed all season long. Yes, rebounding is one of them but so is defense. Boston did not have a -11.5 rebound differential all year long. They would have barely won 20 games if that were the case.
The Lakers and the Knicks both had better rebound differentials in the regular season than Boston. What did that get them? And if a team must completely implodes, it makes no sense to put the blame on just one thing.
I focus on defense because the effort and accountability at the core of that problem bleeds over into many other areas.
Mike
Boston played Chicago three times in the regular season, Chicago was 2-1. In the two Chicago wins, Chicago outrebounded Boston by 19 and 20. In the Boston win, Boston outrebounded Chicago by 11.
The Bulls had the 3rd best rebounding differential during the season. That is why Chicago was a bad matchup for Boston especially when you couple their great perimeter defense (Rondo, Butler). They can take full advantage of Boston's greatest weakness (Detroit was also an excellent rebounding team and Miami was in the top half of the league).
Being a great rebounding team on its own doesn't mean all that much, but having watched Boston all year, it was clear that rebounding was the team's biggest weakness and if it couldn't make up for it by being super efficient offensively it would spell doom in the playoffs (that is why a great rebounding team like Phoenix was one of the worst teams in the league, because it was horrid offensively). The Bulls have played good defense and are destroying the Celtics on the glass. If that doesn't change, Boston will get swept.
The Celtics played the Bulls 4 times this year and were 2-2. On November 2nd they won despite being outrebounded 39-49.
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And while ESPN.com has Boston ranked 27th for rebound differential per game, the Pacers are 25th and the Bucks are 23rd. Yet not only have both teams looked much better against better competition, the Bucks might actually make it to the second round.
Mike
The Raptors are outrebounding the Bucks. The Pacers are playing the Cavs who are also a poor rebounding team (and the Pacers differential is 1.5 rpg). I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Boston is getting crushed on the glass, it isn't close. You can't be -11.5 rgp and consistently win games unless you are shooting 60% or holding your opponent to 30%.
But the problem with this team is NOT that they've just played one bad and one terrible game in the wake of the IT tragedy. The problem with this team is the flaws it has displayed all season long. Yes, rebounding is one of them but so is defense. Boston did not have a -11.5 rebound differential all year long. They would have barely won 20 games if that were the case.
The Lakers and the Knicks both had better rebound differentials in the regular season than Boston. What did that get them? And if a team must completely implodes, it makes no sense to put the blame on just one thing.
I focus on defense because the effort and accountability at the core of that problem bleeds over into many other areas.
Mike
Boston played Chicago three times in the regular season, Chicago was 2-1. In the two Chicago wins, Chicago outrebounded Boston by 19 and 20. In the Boston win, Boston outrebounded Chicago by 11.
The Bulls had the 3rd best rebounding differential during the season. That is why Chicago was a bad matchup for Boston especially when you couple their great perimeter defense (Rondo, Butler). They can take full advantage of Boston's greatest weakness (Detroit was also an excellent rebounding team and Miami was in the top half of the league).
Being a great rebounding team on its own doesn't mean all that much, but having watched Boston all year, it was clear that rebounding was the team's biggest weakness and if it couldn't make up for it by being super efficient offensively it would spell doom in the playoffs (that is why a great rebounding team like Phoenix was one of the worst teams in the league, because it was horrid offensively). The Bulls have played good defense and are destroying the Celtics on the glass. If that doesn't change, Boston will get swept.
The Celtics played the Bulls 4 times this year and were 2-2. On November 2nd they won despite being outrebounded 39-49.
thanks. Missed that game but 44% from three can make up for a rebounding discrepancy
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We lack length at every position.
Sure, IT gets heralded for being 5'9'' but then we surround him with short guys with short wingspans and standing reaches.
We have no size or length.....especially in the front-court
That is all DA. Stevens has done a great job(wish he hadn;t so we would have missed the playoffs in 15') with what he has. It is DA that has not gotten the memo to invest in some players with real length for the front-court.
The front court has enough length, at least as far as bothering shots defensively is concerned. What I think we're lacking is low post scoring and a physical presence around the basket.
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The front court has enough length, at least as far as bothering shots defensively is concerned. What I think we're lacking is low post scoring and a physical presence around the basket.
We are the shortest team in the league and it shows night in and night out
At the other end of the yardstick, the shortest team in the league is the Celtics, who can attribute their status to the diminutive Isaiah Thomas and Brad Stevens’s fondness for four-out lineups. The Rockets, Pacers, Suns and Cavaliers round out the bottom five.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/which-nba-team-is-the-tallest
I agree we lack the physical presence more than anything.
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And while ESPN.com has Boston ranked 27th for rebound differential per game, the Pacers are 25th and the Bucks are 23rd. Yet not only have both teams looked much better against better competition, the Bucks might actually make it to the second round.
Mike
The Raptors are outrebounding the Bucks. The Pacers are playing the Cavs who are also a poor rebounding team (and the Pacers differential is 1.5 rpg). I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Boston is getting crushed on the glass, it isn't close. You can't be -11.5 rgp and consistently win games unless you are shooting 60% or holding your opponent to 30%.
But the problem with this team is NOT that they've just played one bad and one terrible game in the wake of the IT tragedy. The problem with this team is the flaws it has displayed all season long. Yes, rebounding is one of them but so is defense. Boston did not have a -11.5 rebound differential all year long. They would have barely won 20 games if that were the case.
The Lakers and the Knicks both had better rebound differentials in the regular season than Boston. What did that get them? And if a team must completely implodes, it makes no sense to put the blame on just one thing.
I focus on defense because the effort and accountability at the core of that problem bleeds over into many other areas.
Mike
Boston played Chicago three times in the regular season, Chicago was 2-1. In the two Chicago wins, Chicago outrebounded Boston by 19 and 20. In the Boston win, Boston outrebounded Chicago by 11.
The Bulls had the 3rd best rebounding differential during the season. That is why Chicago was a bad matchup for Boston especially when you couple their great perimeter defense (Rondo, Butler). They can take full advantage of Boston's greatest weakness (Detroit was also an excellent rebounding team and Miami was in the top half of the league).
Being a great rebounding team on its own doesn't mean all that much, but having watched Boston all year, it was clear that rebounding was the team's biggest weakness and if it couldn't make up for it by being super efficient offensively it would spell doom in the playoffs (that is why a great rebounding team like Phoenix was one of the worst teams in the league, because it was horrid offensively). The Bulls have played good defense and are destroying the Celtics on the glass. If that doesn't change, Boston will get swept.
All of that would be super-duper important if the only thing we had to do to win an NBA championship was beat Chicago. That is not the case and focusing on this one team at this one moment and ignoring everything else isn't going to accomplish anything.
The Celtics are a bad rebounding team, but by the same measure so is Milwaukee. Heck, New Orleans with Anthony Davis and part of the season with Cousins had the second worst rebound differential in the league. In fact, four of the top ten best teams for rebound differential didn't even make the playoffs this season.
If Boston gets swept, it's because they're playing like garbage. Not because they're playing well except for rebounding.
Mike
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The front court has enough length, at least as far as bothering shots defensively is concerned. What I think we're lacking is low post scoring and a physical presence around the basket.
We are the shortest team in the league and it shows night in and night out
At the other end of the yardstick, the shortest team in the league is the Celtics, who can attribute their status to the diminutive Isaiah Thomas and Brad Stevens’s fondness for four-out lineups. The Rockets, Pacers, Suns and Cavaliers round out the bottom five.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/which-nba-team-is-the-tallest
I agree we lack the physical presence more than anything.
Height is not necessarily the same thing as length though.
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Game 3.
Boston -15 on the boards, +17 on the scoreboard.
Mike
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Game 3.
Boston -15 on the boards, +17 on the scoreboard.
Mike
and 46% from three. You shoot that well from deep you can overcome pretty much anything.
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And while ESPN.com has Boston ranked 27th for rebound differential per game, the Pacers are 25th and the Bucks are 23rd. Yet not only have both teams looked much better against better competition, the Bucks might actually make it to the second round.
Mike
The Raptors are outrebounding the Bucks. The Pacers are playing the Cavs who are also a poor rebounding team (and the Pacers differential is 1.5 rpg). I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. Boston is getting crushed on the glass, it isn't close. You can't be -11.5 rgp and consistently win games unless you are shooting 60% or holding your opponent to 30%.
But the problem with this team is NOT that they've just played one bad and one terrible game in the wake of the IT tragedy. The problem with this team is the flaws it has displayed all season long. Yes, rebounding is one of them but so is defense. Boston did not have a -11.5 rebound differential all year long. They would have barely won 20 games if that were the case.
The Lakers and the Knicks both had better rebound differentials in the regular season than Boston. What did that get them? And if a team must completely implodes, it makes no sense to put the blame on just one thing.
I focus on defense because the effort and accountability at the core of that problem bleeds over into many other areas.
Mike
Rebounding wins championships in tightly contested games. You aren't always going to shoot well but you can always rebound well. That is the difference. Think about it, it's not one team we need to beat it every team in the NBA.
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Game 3.
Boston -15 on the boards, +17 on the scoreboard.
Mike
and 46% from three. You shoot that well from deep you can overcome pretty much anything.
Not if the other team shoots 48% from three. The Bulls were held to 39% from the field and 29% from three. If this team plays that kind of defense, they can compete with anyone no matter how many rebounds they give up.
Mike